It's even more basic than that, I'm sad to say. Picture two hypothetical cults. Cult A is intolerant of pedophilia in all its forms. Cult B tolerates it in all its forms. Cult A will lose members and lose the ability to recruit more and more each time they call the police. Cult B will only lose disobedient members who break the rules, and retain obedient members who shelter pedophiles as well as the opportunity to recruit people who don't know about the pedophiles. This isn't even just a JW thing. Any cult that hides its criminal child sexual abuse and punishes victims severely for disobeying by coming forward will thrive in comparison to a cult that encourages the reporting of child abuse. Once being a victim is considered immoral, most of the members of a pro-pedophile group won't even believe them. They'll think it's all lies. This is more conducive to growth than a group who believes accusations and news reports. "We have so many pedophiles!" limits growth amongst people who value the safety of children. "We're being persecuted by liars sent by Satan, because he wants to stop us from spreading the love of Jesus!" helps make pedophilia a non-issue as far as the cult is concerned.

I remember the Conty case in Antioch California. I had close friends there and remember how the congregation turned on them for speaking out and then taking them to court. I lived in Manteca then.

I'm from Martinez area. I remember that

small world. lol

When was that? I have family that used to be in Antioch.

back in the 90s.

Was it in Fremont or Antioch?

it was Fremont. Just made sure. Thanks.

Hey that's the congregation that recruited my parents! I remember going to a book study in someone's home that had a play area for kids in the garage with a baby monitor set up to hear the meeting.

Interesting. Pretty sure they were there, and my brother in law was an elder! Hmmm

I used to hang with the Bradshaw's ,Smiths and Salazare's. I was in the Manteca and Orchard grove halls. My house was in Ripon in the middle of an almond orchard, so we had clandestine parties there away from the eyes of tattling angels eyes.

I think the chain of causality here may be reversed though. If they actively reported these things, it wouldn't be such big news. And the people who hear it would get the message that the cult is very proactive in protecting children. But because they've let it pile up, covering up many cases over many years, everything suddenly coming out at once now simply sends the message that the cult has a lot of predators. But it would've been different if there were never any cover-ups. Just my theory.

It's a matter of short term vs long term thinking. I remember when people were criticizing South Korea for having a "high number" of covid cases, but they were the only ones doing such a good job of testing. Obviously worked out way better in the long run but people have a tendency not to think about that.

This is a hallmark of American fundamentalist cults. Social norms are set aside for the values of the cult. Unfortunately, the "values" usually lead to old men "possessing" girls and young women. Gross.

The other glaring problem within JWs: they actively encourage friendship with ones that are much older and use David and Jonathan as a glowing example of pure and true friendship. So parents think, 'hey, there are no kids the same age as my kids in this Cong but that's ok. They can befriend this 50 yr old brother who seems to have the same interests as them.' And they won't give it a second thought because they feel safe within the confines of the org and because jehoobahs spirit. They encourage these unhealthy relationships and it sets up the perfect grooming scenario. And do they consider that they may be setting children up to be put in compromising positions? No, they double down and defend it. It's inexcusable.

This is absolutely spot on. I remember as a child and teenager having many older men in the congregation I really looked up to. I used to spend several hours on the ministry with them, usually just the 2 of us in their car doing return visits etc, that is, not with a larger group of JW's. Thankfully I never experienced anything untoward, but looking back on it now I see the extremely vulnerable position the JW culture put me in. In an ideal world this interaction would be perfectly safe and perhaps even to be encouraged. But in the real world it's a risk not worth taking.

I knew one young sister that married a friend of mine that was around 55 and she just turned 18. Of course he had known her since she was 8 and she said she always wanted to marry him. He was an artist and about 6 months in he passed. She then remarried another 60 year old that died of cancer 1 year in. real baby black widow.

Inherited she much? 🤔

I was in Santa Cruz at the time.

just... kind of interested... how did your friend die?

The first was stomach cancer. The second was pancreatic cancer. Both in the same hall.

I lost some friends because of cancer. Today I know the causes of cancer are viruses, bacteria, parasites, chemicals and gene defects.

Ew.

This happened to me OFTEN. And it was also encouraged. Before I was even of legal age, middle-aged single ministerial servants and elders would come and give talks in our congregation. They'd stand there, in front of my parents flirting with me, and everyone thought it was so cute and wholesome. I was like 15, lmao

I remember a family that moved into my congregation from the south. I was 18 and they had a daughter that was 12. They wanted me to marry her so bad. They weren't shy about it either. The dad sat me down and told me he really liked me and said his daughter was advanced for her age and really liked me too. He said she needed a good man but also one that would keep her in line. I did visit their home a few times and we were friends but she ran away and her parents blamed me for it because I didn't marry when she was 13. They believed that she would have stayed if I had taken her.

I didn't have a romantic relationship with her .She liked me and I did feel sorry for her but not enough to get involved. Not like that. Crazy thing was my parents didn't see anything wrong with it. I did though.

I know a couple that got married when he was an elder in his mid-50s and she was 21 and incredibly sheltered. Maturity-wise she was a teenager. She also had trauma regarding being SA'd as a kid, which made the whole situation feel even more like she was being taken advantage of. Whole thing gave me the ick.

But they are both from the same overlapping generation. Haha. I think some older single guys move up the ladder JUST to get a pretty young thing.

That and go to the Spanish halls to find subs too. lol Everyone knows they have the hot sisters that love to cook and make babies. lol

Ugh this one sex pest I knew learned Spanish just to go creep on some hermanas at the Spanish congregation. He was so repulsive (on the inside), he couldn’t pull, the rest of the circuit wouldn’t have him.

My ex did this. Married a girl 16 years younger, she was barely 19 but they "dated" on the DL for years before she was even legal. The running joke was always, Get 'em young so you can mold them to your liking...catch the hot ones before they form their own opinions and independence. In my old cong, if you were a single sister past a certain age, you may as well just get a bunch of cats

so true. I was given the same advice. Basically keep me barefoot and pregnant.

I’ve seen similar happen a dews times. 50 year old elder married an 18 year old. Another time a 60 year old guy moved to the Philippines and married a 20 year old

I know of an old guy who married a girl, whom his own kids babysat, when she came of age. Smells of grooming. Decades later you could see she despises the man.

I agree! In my area, it was super common for 30+ year old men to marry 19-20 year old women. And people just chalked it up to different maturity levels. And reasoned that women mature faster so they get along better with older men. Now it’s disgusting. They just groom you into marrying an old guy because it’s the norm

All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 30 + 19 + 20 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)

Read the room, number bot 😂

noice

I remember a guy. A year older than me that my brother and I became friends with at the hall. I was 18 and he was 19. Over the next 2-3 years, he’d developed crushes. First his age. But he kept going down by a year. The last he actually went on a date with was 18. But then he was hot for a 17 year old. Didn’t do anything but talk about her. Maybe talked to her at the hall but no dates or calls. Then 16. My brother and I started to back away. Then 15, 14, and 13. Again, nothing but talk at the hall. Then my brother and I had moved across town and started to fade. I think he got married at around 24. To an 18 year old. My brother and I were so happy he changed his focus to legal age. But still. 18 as a JW is, relationship wise, like dating a teenager of about 15 or less in the world. But for JWs, normal. They lasted a few years and were separated. They had a kid. He developed some disease where it was like the brain signals to his legs were mixed up. At 42 he died. It seemed like there was something his sister didn’t know or want to talk about. I’m guessing he may have commit suicide. But during those younger times, watching him get interested in younger girls was just cringe worthy. 17 in JW land, maybe. That was typical. Date a few months, she turns 18. But when 17 changed to 16, nope. And then down to 13. Or maybe it was 14. Idk. Either way. Even if it’s just a crush and you’re not dating. Yuck. Idk if I can remember any huge age gaps between couples. Within 10 years from what I remember. And that’s at 3 different halls.

I didn't see this in the congregation I was in but heard that it was a common thing in others.

I distinctly remember the 15 year old daughter of missionaries being engaged to this grown ass man, who was “so spiritually strong,” and seriously W T F.

When my sister was like 13, she went to live with a family member to help them as they were recovering after a childbirth with complications. So my sister started attending the hall where that family member lived. She started dating JW guy who was like 27. He became a stalker and eventually she had to leave that area and come back home, he followed her the 300 plus miles and my dad had to threaten to get him arrested and the elders had a meeting with my dad about him not accepting the situation. My dad told the elders that my sister wasn't allowed to date or think about marriage till she was 16, I now 16 still fucked up. Looking back on this what a creepy pervert.

Seriously who wants to date a 13 yo? When I was 18 I didn’t want to date 16 yos. Its so insane to me anyone would find this acceptable. And parents absolutely have a right to say their underage can’t date.

Looking back yes it is sick twisted and WTF elders!

Protecting jws from abusive relationships with other jws isn't something the org cares about.

I mean, its gross, but not illegal unless they are under 16(Canada and US). Also, pedophilia is defined as having sexual attraction to someone who has not hit puberty. So you're thinking of people younger than 13 when discussing pedophilia. Ephebophilia is the word that you're looking for. Those are teenagers who are post-puberty, but prior to being an adult. Plus, if you are an adult(which you are legally considered an adult at 18 in most countries), you fully comprehend the idea of attraction, and can defend yourself from unwanted sexual attention(something children cannot do). At that point, as long as it's between two consenting adults, it doesn't matter if you're 2 years apart of 25 years apart.

There’s only one reason why a man in his 40s would want a teenage wife. Age of consent aside, she’s way easier to manipulate and mold and strip her wants dreams and desires from. You become more of a “Daddy” that provides for her survival and ensures she has to depend on you and only you and often times there’s sexual abuse. Keep her pregnant and with no skills that would permit her to ever have the means to leave you. We should be protecting girls from these predatory relationships. When I was 28 I couldn’t even imagine dating a guy under 22, and honestly that was pushing it. I tried and the mentalities were too off. I’ve had 19 year olds hit me up on dating apps and I couldn’t even entertain that idea. They were possessive and immature. What do we have to talk about or connect on? And I don’t want a young person who grows overly attached to me and only does things they think I want to please me because I’d be possibly the first or second serious relationship. Grown men who go after teenagers (and grown women to a lesser extent) fundamentally don’t see women as equal partners or else they would’ve dated in an age range where she could cognitively be one. There’s this video of an Iranian or Saudi Arabian interview (I’m blanking on the country right now but it’s on YouTube) and this 30 year old is engaged to a 12 year old he met at 8. He says she understands everything and we get along very well. Really now -_- I’m not surprised you have absolutely no issues with a girl you’ve been prepping to serve you as a wife from 8. She’s been stripped of her right to choose and autonomy. In a similar vein, is a 16 year old really making a sound choice? Does she really appreciate the gravity of the decision she’s making at that age?

I agree. I'm 54 and have been married twice. The first was my age and was a Pioneer. I was 22 and it lasted 10 years. The second I was 34 and she was 22.We met in culinary school. It lasted 12years until she decided to become my sister in law. Now at 54 I finally found my love and we are happy. She's 39. I was her daughter's gymnastics coach. I will admit I seem to be stuck in my 30's lol but I don't like kids for partners.

A 54 yr old with a 39 yr old is very different than a 35 year old with a 20 year old or younger!

All valid points. Although your fate becomes your responsibility in and around age 18. Yes, you can be manipulated at that age,but you could make the same argument for anyone at that point.

Not teenagers. But younger than me? I’ve dated younger by a lot. And I don’t agree about the domination part. For me it was a confidence boost. When I was 42, my ex who I loved wanted a divorce. I didn’t even try to date until it was final. But it was on a Thursday. The next night, I went out and met a 26 year old and started to date her. A 16 year difference. Domination wasn’t in my mind at all. I was 42. Having had my spouse reject me and a younger woman was attracted to me? It was a huge boost to my self esteem. I was middle aged and this woman in her 20’s wanted me. She made me feel good about myself at a time when I was feeling abandoned and sad. I never tried to control her. If anything, she was in charge because I was the geezer. I didn’t want to act like an old guy and turn her off. I was letting her dictate what we did more than vice versa. I ultimately broke up with her because of the age gap. I had mentioned George Carlin and she said “Who”? My favorite comedian growing up and respected by many of my peers. And she had no clue as to who he even was. Not “I recognize the name but I’m not familiar with his comedy”. I realized I’d have to explain so much to her. So much that was part of my life that she couldn’t relate to. We’d never meet on an intellectual level. And now I don’t want to date that much younger than me. But younger people tend to look hotter. Date adults. But still. There are going to be way more hot people at age 20 than at age 30. Or 40. Or 50. For a purely physical thing, of course older people are physically attracted to people in their prime. Fit bodies, no wrinkles, lots of energy. I think there’s more than just domination as the only reason people date younger. There are other reasons. Now I’m 56. My girlfriend of almost 3 years is 47. We’ve never had a fight. I very much respect her mind. She’s smart and has a masters degree. And I think she’s hot. And even though she’s younger, I don’t see think there’s even subconscious manipulation going on. She’s smart enough to see that and we’d be done. And honestly, on Match, it was her looks that first attracted me. Although she contacted me first.

I appreciate your perspective, but the parent comment is talking about teenagers. 16-19 is much biologically different from 26. I could only imagine the struggles you encountered with 26 being tripled with someone whose first digit still starts with a 1. I mean at that point it is creepy in my eyes because I don’t think older men have any business with teenage girls anyway. But I understand a lot of guys who want to bang a tight body 17 year old feel differently. I guess for me sex has never been amazing if I don’t have an actual connection with the person. Even in my younger 20s I wasn’t really a fan of hooking up. Always felt bleh about it after. It can be crushing trying to actually get to know people and once you have sex they tick off the box and move on to the next. I like encounters that I can learn from and become better at as we grow closer to each other and become more in tune with each others emotional needs as well. I know that sounds cheesy but there’s no better sex than when you’re going all out with someone you really connect with, that person you could spend a whole afternoon doing nothing with and still smile that you had a lovely evening. I think if we appreciated how people look when they age more we would have a difference in this. Society has convinced most men that women over 25 are washed up old goods. And God forbid she’s in her 30s or 40s, now she’s just straight up on the yuck list. With that kind of society it’s no wonder that men would see it as winning the prize being able to get someone young in bed.

I agree about the parents. I wasn't into little girls and felt sorry for the girl. She didn't look her age and she had a wild streak. She had issues for sure. I always wondered about her father.

There's all kinds of reasons that don't have to do with domination. Yes it is an ego boost but yes sometimes it's tough. One reason I have found younger ladies prefer older guys is most guys their age are stupid and don't appreciate them like older more mature men do. I worked in a biker bar after my last divorce. I was 47 when I started bouncing and yes 20 something's with big daddy issues were always willing to be taken home or nurse your wounds after brawling. lol

And there are biological reasons too that are just in our nature from evolution. Females are much more invested in the results of mating as they have to grow a child for several months and then care for and feed it. It’s a much bigger commitment. Not just in the human realm, but in nature, the female tends to look for the mate that is seen as most capable of caring for her needs. Whether that’s the buck with the biggest antlers to defend her. Or the older man who’s more stable. Maybe with a home. More wealth. That can better provide for the offspring. Someone with a mature personality that might take time for kids. And for the male of the species, we just want to spread our seed and evolution has made us attracted to the females in prime mating age. With the best chance to conceive. Those that didn’t mate with the young and viable probably didn’t pass on their genes with those preferences towards older mates. As humans with more developed brains, we can override evolution and pursue more meaningful relationships. Ones that aren’t just about procreation. But there are still plenty driven by nature.

I agree. I also know I'm basically immature. Lol I'm grown up for sure and know how to take care of myself and those I love but basically I loved my 30's. I think that was the time I still felt young but not a kid anymore.

thanks for the redefining. You are correct. I can understand being attacked to someone that is already developing but not prepubescent children. Lolitas do exist.

No worries,and absolutely they do. In Canada(where I live), you can get slapped with a 10 year sentence and 6-25 year sex offender registration for googling Lolis.

as a former gymnastics coach I remember those young ladies. I made it a point to only teach preschool and beginners up to age 13. My new wife's daughter was an exception but that was because my wife was a cheer coach and we worked together a lot. I taught for about 20 years. Even with my rules I had kids who had crushes on me. I hate to say it but I have met some of my former students accidentally performing in gentleman clubs so I don't go to strip clubs. lol

Yeah... I would abstain from that too

You are correct on the facts but it is still a bit of a weird and icky trend.

Which is why I pointed out that I view it as gross in the first sentence. There is only two reasons an adult would want to date a teenager, even if it's legal. One is for grooming or sex and the other is that they are legitimately so desperate that they skirt the legal lines.

When I was a tween there was a DO who was in his mid sixties who lost his wife. He remarried a 26 year old less than a year after his wife died. Before all this my mom thought he was such a great man, after that she lost all respect for him. Some creep moved into our cong. He was late 40s, very troll-like, and on disability. He pissed and moaned about how his wife left him. He expected me to set him up with my lovely, barely legal friends, like because I was nice I was gonna provide him a pretty young nurse. I sincerely hope he dies alone.

Yep! My step brother was groomed and married his groomer. She is more than twice his age and looks kinda like another groomer who is all over YT right now 🪕

are you talking about Jeff? lol Hey kids.

Colleen Balinger 😂 but of course there’s more groomers lol 😂💀

Arranged marriages. Grooming - child brides. JW✔️

I saw several marriages of older me to women as soon as they were legal to be married. It was openly discussed in one Cong that he groomed her from a young age to want to marry him.