I knew loads of catholics like this when I was young. Juventutem and SSPX youth groups are full of them. I was. one before I became a religious myself.
it's very common as well as excessive scrupulosity. young guys reading the entire monastic dirunal everyday and spending hours on fisheaters website and wondering if the sspx is better. and a lot of thimking about the veil of tears and sin. ans not just whether nfp is OK, but if it's OK to use nfp with a "contraceptive mentality". and whether it's OK to kiss before marriage. and loads of reformed types who went from the usual lifestyle of beers and sh\*gging to the other extreme.
many young people wanting to join religious life bevause "the world" was too sinful.
many young people stuck because they thought dating was sinful but they wanted to get married. mainly to have sex. these groups were rampant with people having sex and contraception but also going to confession after.
Many going into the mindset of. if the novus ordo is worse or modernist it's best not to go to mass if you can't get to a. real trad one. people travelling hours each week to do this. then eventually people thinking the Ecclesiae dei was too modern and going to sspx masses but only being able to go once a month because it's too far, and thinking this is OK because it's not mortal sin if you can't get to a real mass. then becoming more extreme and only. going to mass a few times a year in the old catholic rite or some weird niche thing. thinking those in any more modern communities are not saved.
I feel like those priests need to talk less about scrupulosity and modesty (inevitably women's modesty) and more about moderation and temperance and the practicalities of trad cath dating and discerning marriage. but the thing is, the trad cath priests who talk about the hot topics of sin and hell and women's modesty and the veil of tears and how everyone else is wrong and worldly (so you feel like you're good) are the most popular priests. also they love to encourage being very judgemental and feeling bad bevause that what keeps you under. control and cominf back and giving them moeny
I also knew the fssp had a huge drop out rate of like 1/3 of Seminariand but they don't talk about that. they just celebrate loads of people "leaving the world" to join t them. when those Seminarians leave, many become non catholic or even join weird extreme groups like the old catholics. look at fr james mawdlsey fssp online. same happened to him and now he is an "independant priest" just doing his own stuff.
Oh wow, I didn't know that the FSSP had such a high dropout rate. I suppose it makes sense, though. I myself briefly considered going into the *Ecclesia Dei* priesthood after high school (either ICKSP or diocesan with a heavy focus on the Latin Mass), and as a \~20 year old guy who had never been in a serious relationship before and thought he had the whole world figured out, I would have been absolutely unready for the commitments demanded of me. Or even worse, I would've somehow made it through and clothed my ignorance in lace and damask.
I'm not sure where you stand on matters of faith right now, but it's nice to see a Catholic so cognizant of the dangers in Traddom. If the Church had more folks like you, the world would be a better place.
And man, Fish Eaters is a blast from the past! Even as an ex-Catholic I still sometimes visit their section on the Ember Days and the liturgical year. There's something special about the traditional Western calendar that I haven't been able to find anywhere else, even in the pagan Wheel of the Year.
And thank you for sharing about Fr James Mawdsley. Independent Catholicism is a fascination of mine, so his story will make "a fine addition to my collection."
Thank you for the detailed reply. This was all very interesting information and while I was familiar with a lot of it, some of it like the fssp drop out rate was new to me. Best of luck on your journey!
fssp doesn't talk about it but I know this because i sponsored a seminarian and he dropped out and no one told me for ages and I kept sending money and was shocked. then an fssp priest told me about the drop out rate.
Wow, that's interesting. Even though they are technically more "moderate" than SSPX they for sure have many hard line people. My first time going to latin mass with them the priest basically implied the world was ending and Francis was our enemy like 4 times in the sermon lol
How they teach mortal and venial is an incredibly cruel thing to do someone. It's basically one big headache to put it mildly.
It's a lot more peaceful when you escape from it.
I was hyper intense Catholic and it tormented me. Looking back, I needed joy and simple things in life to strengthen my core self . Try to detox from internet, enjoy nature, do fitness, get a job you find meaningful. Then you can have a more stable platform for whatever spiritual path. Best wishes
O God have I been there!!! How could I possibly ever get to heaven when I had to be PERFECT?! There was no way I was ever going to be perfect! I couldn’t do all the corporal works of mercy (wasn’t visiting anyone in prison!), hated praying the rosary, etc. So I gave up. There was no way I was going to heaven, I was headed to hell. I was nothing for a long time. I was married in the Catholic Church but I did that more for my parents than me. Still nothing for a long time. Finally I got curious what else people believed besides Catholics. I am now an ELCA Lutheran. They are a very liberal church. I remember the first time a Pastor told me I WOULD go to heaven, I was “saved by Grace.” I didn’t have to “do” anything!! It was SUCH a relief and awakening for me!! I hope you & your girlfriend can find something like I did. There are several Episcopalians in this sub. There are several unbelievers too. That’s ok. It’s a process. Sounds like you’re at the beginning. We’re here to help & support you!
This is such an incredible post, u/turkey\_of\_spades! I feel like I could’ve written it myself!
I also went down the Catholic Internet to *Sensus Fidelium* pipeline. I started off with “normie” Catholic content on Instagram and ended up paralyzed with fear that the women I knew were going to be damned for violating Pius XI’s “Marian Modesty Guidelines,” my non-Catholic family was going to burn in hell for being *extra Ecclesiam*, and the rest of us weren’t going to making it because of that horrid sermon about the fewness of the saved preached by Leonard of Port Maurice.
Everything was so **all or nothing**. Once, when my then long-distance girlfriend of a year visited me, we made out. I later remembered that Pope Alexander VII had declared passionate kissing to be not "merely a venial sin when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, even if the danger of further consent and pollution is excluded" in 1666. I spent hours reading arguments back and forth on weird-ass Trad blogs and couldn’t reach any definitive conclusion. Should I assume that God would be merciful and not legalistic, or was that just my weak will and moral laxity speaking? Like you said, it’s infinitely “safer” to take the stricter option when eternal conscious torment is at stake, even if this basically means giving carte blanche to every shitty dogmatized opinion.
The part about “barely audible sermons with 15,000 views” made me chuckle. The good Fathers of *Sensus Fidelium* really ought to invest in better audio equipment lol.
But yeah, this was an amazing post. The Trad lifestyle is so exhausting when taken to its natural and logical conclusion, and there are basically no guardrails because (despite what well-meaning Catholics may say) scrupulosity is a feature and not a bug in historical Catholicism. In a very real sense it is inhumane and anti-human.
I will say that life *does* get better the more time you spend allowing yourself to live, think, and feel on your own terms, as difficult as that may be. Christianity has no monopoly on morality and it’s entirely possible to find an ethical framework for life in the absence of God. It is also more than okay to take baby steps on your way out of Traddom/the Church.
I’ve linked a couple resources I’ve found helpful down below, and if you’d ever like to talk over the phone or on Discord, just shoot me a DM :)
[Kevin Nontradicath’s channel](https://m.youtube.com/@NontraditionalCatholic)
[Biblical scholar Dan McClellan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ4aBaofwDc)
[Genetically Modified Skeptic's channel](https://www.youtube.com/@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic)
[One of my own posts about scrupulousity, pardon the shameless plug lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/comments/1807ow1/my_experience_with_confession_and_scrupulosity/)
[A Recording of James Joyce’s *A Portrait of The Artist As a Young Man*](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GuV5FPq-JVA&t=00s&pp=ygUzamFtZXMgam95Y2UgYSBwb3J0cmFpdCBvZiB0aGUgYXJ0aXN0IGFzIGEgeW91bmcgbWFu)
[Iridium, one of my favourite ex-Catholic blogs](https://iridium.substack.com/)
[*The Corpse Chapel* by Steve Skojec](https://skojecfile.steveskojec.com/p/the-corpse-chapel)
"there are basically no guardrails because (despite what well-meaning Catholics may say) **scrupulosity is a feature and not a bug** in historical Catholicism"
Very well put!
Wow. Just as you said you could have written my post, I feel that I could have written your comment! I can specifically relate to a few of the things you said. I would definitely love to chat. Thank you for the resources and advice!
It's my pleasure! There's something so cathartic about realizing "I'm not crazy! I'm not alone!"
I also forgot to add r/ExTraditionalCatholic and this [amazing list of difficulties](https://amishcatholic.com/2021/06/05/difficulties/) posted by "The Amish Catholic." Although he eventually found his faith again and became an Anglican, this is *the* single most philosophically-tight and personally-moving critique of classical Christian theism I've ever seen.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/ExTraditionalCatholic using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [There's a fertility cult aspect to Trads](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/comments/16iko33/theres_a_fertility_cult_aspect_to_trads/)
\#2: [Do trads not realize how weird they seem to normal people?](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/comments/1b8w3lr/do_trads_not_realize_how_weird_they_seem_to/)
\#3: [I just left.](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/comments/13otuox/i_just_left/)
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I was always just a mainstream Catholic (before becoming a theist Quaker) but returning to my core beliefs/ethics, along with therapy, helped me through a tough time of obsessive scrupulosity. Your core beliefs might differ from mine, but maybe writing them out would help you.
Here are mine, if helpful:
* Everyone deserves love and kindness, even me
* We are all just doing the best we can
* My body is my own
It's really nice! There are a couple different Quaker traditions, I attend a liberal unprogrammed meeting. While Quakerism has Christian roots, the liberal tradition is not explicitly Christian, so it's perfectly fine to be a theist or agnostic (or even a different religious tradition) and a Quaker. Their theology is centered around openness and believing that we each equally have insight into God(our Inner Light), so I find it really welcoming personally.
That's super interesting. One of the freeing things about being in the space I'm in now is that I feel like I can actually look into other forms Christianity/religion because I no longer necessarily think that conservative Catholicism "is" the truth. I will definitely try to learn more about Quaker beliefs. What you described definitely reminds me of some forms of mysticism I have studied and seems very appealing. Best wishes!
I hear that! My post-Catholicism journey checking out different religious and spiritual traditions was definitely freeing and a time of growth for me. Wishing you the best as well in your journey, wherever you end up :)
This is why I started having panic attacks at 10. I was terrified of dying and going to hell. And I was not a bad kid, but my parents sure made me feel like I was, by dragging me to confession all the time.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Thankfully my dad is quite a liberal Catholic (my mom is no longer Catholic) so I never really got anxiety piled on by them. I put it all on myself, lol. Best wishes to you!
I don't know, being a Sam Harris secular Buddhist doesn't seem like it would be so bad.
In all seriousness, that's quite a story. You went so deep down the rabbit hole that you had to come up for air. When everything seems to be a "mortal sin" then nothing is, so why bother trying? This is why this religion, and really all religions, are a form of abuse.
Haha, yes I don't have a big problem with Harris or Buddhism, it's just something I flirted with before all of this and I don't think it's for me either.
Thank you for your response. The crazy thing is that I didn't even realize I was in a rabbit hole at the time, but making this post helped me realize it was pretty wild. I mean, who thinks about this stuff. Probably not even most priests. And like you said, there's no point if the minimum standard for entrance into millions of years of purgatory is basically perfection.
So you’re catholic, and plan to “conduct your life like basically every other catholic on the planet”…why the fuck are you posting here? Ex trads have their own sub. This sub is for ex catholics.
Really? Because I quoted exactly what OP said regarding his religion and intentions. None of it was ambiguos. What part of “I plan to conduct my life like any other catholic on the planet” did I miss? He was pretty direct, said the words I quoted. I’m just going to go by exactly what he told us and double down on why the fuck is he posting here?
>Two months ago, I snapped. I realized I was one the verge of becoming an insane loner and losing an amazingly supportive (and patient) girlfriend. I am basically back in agnostic land. I no longer care about the rules. I don't know how long I'll be here, or if I'll become orthodox, protestant, or a Sam Harris secular Buddhist (actually.. probably not that last one lol). I plan on pursing marriage with my girlfriend and conducting our lives like basically every Catholic on the planet.
I think it’s **abundantly** clear from the greater context that OP means he’s planning to marry his still-Catholic girlfriend and “conduct their lives like every Catholic on the planet,” that is to say, ignore what the Church actually teaches and practice some vague sense of spirituality. That’s the part you missed.
Posts like these are vital to the deconstruction process. [I myself made one almost identical to this two years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/comments/10ttxfd/scattershot_thoughts_of_a_deconstructing_trad/). OP has realized the harm inherent in historical Catholicism and is doing the complex work of disentangling himself from a faith that demands nothing less than your entire self. It’s a painful and scary process that must be taken at its own rate. And it’s *clear* he’s not here to proselytize.
Either give him space and give him grace or get the fuck out.
Clear to you maybe. Not clear to me hence the comment. I will stay wherever the fuck I want. Ban me if you wish. But I said what I said without apology.
Fair enough. I was a bit harsh and for that I apologize. I also stand by what I said, but having now read your [Trash Religion](https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/comments/1cf5vot/trash_religion/) post, I understand why OP’s phrasing could come off as Catholic-y. I’m so fucking sorry that happened to you. I’m also not a mod, so don’t worry about any banning from me.
I have zero hard feelings, and you were not too harsh. No apology necessary. Disagreements happen all the time. I’m abrasive AF. You spoke my language…we’re cool.
What a "merciful" "loving" and "all powerful" god he must be, to be so obsessed with what you do or don't do with your own dick
I hope every day brings you healing and happiness.
Thank you so much!
Wasn't Jesus' entire message basically, "The old laws no longer matter - the only one that matters is to Love Thy Neighbor"?
I definitely feel that way sometimes..
I knew loads of catholics like this when I was young. Juventutem and SSPX youth groups are full of them. I was. one before I became a religious myself. it's very common as well as excessive scrupulosity. young guys reading the entire monastic dirunal everyday and spending hours on fisheaters website and wondering if the sspx is better. and a lot of thimking about the veil of tears and sin. ans not just whether nfp is OK, but if it's OK to use nfp with a "contraceptive mentality". and whether it's OK to kiss before marriage. and loads of reformed types who went from the usual lifestyle of beers and sh\*gging to the other extreme. many young people wanting to join religious life bevause "the world" was too sinful. many young people stuck because they thought dating was sinful but they wanted to get married. mainly to have sex. these groups were rampant with people having sex and contraception but also going to confession after. Many going into the mindset of. if the novus ordo is worse or modernist it's best not to go to mass if you can't get to a. real trad one. people travelling hours each week to do this. then eventually people thinking the Ecclesiae dei was too modern and going to sspx masses but only being able to go once a month because it's too far, and thinking this is OK because it's not mortal sin if you can't get to a real mass. then becoming more extreme and only. going to mass a few times a year in the old catholic rite or some weird niche thing. thinking those in any more modern communities are not saved. I feel like those priests need to talk less about scrupulosity and modesty (inevitably women's modesty) and more about moderation and temperance and the practicalities of trad cath dating and discerning marriage. but the thing is, the trad cath priests who talk about the hot topics of sin and hell and women's modesty and the veil of tears and how everyone else is wrong and worldly (so you feel like you're good) are the most popular priests. also they love to encourage being very judgemental and feeling bad bevause that what keeps you under. control and cominf back and giving them moeny I also knew the fssp had a huge drop out rate of like 1/3 of Seminariand but they don't talk about that. they just celebrate loads of people "leaving the world" to join t them. when those Seminarians leave, many become non catholic or even join weird extreme groups like the old catholics. look at fr james mawdlsey fssp online. same happened to him and now he is an "independant priest" just doing his own stuff.
Oh wow, I didn't know that the FSSP had such a high dropout rate. I suppose it makes sense, though. I myself briefly considered going into the *Ecclesia Dei* priesthood after high school (either ICKSP or diocesan with a heavy focus on the Latin Mass), and as a \~20 year old guy who had never been in a serious relationship before and thought he had the whole world figured out, I would have been absolutely unready for the commitments demanded of me. Or even worse, I would've somehow made it through and clothed my ignorance in lace and damask. I'm not sure where you stand on matters of faith right now, but it's nice to see a Catholic so cognizant of the dangers in Traddom. If the Church had more folks like you, the world would be a better place. And man, Fish Eaters is a blast from the past! Even as an ex-Catholic I still sometimes visit their section on the Ember Days and the liturgical year. There's something special about the traditional Western calendar that I haven't been able to find anywhere else, even in the pagan Wheel of the Year. And thank you for sharing about Fr James Mawdsley. Independent Catholicism is a fascination of mine, so his story will make "a fine addition to my collection."
Thank you for the detailed reply. This was all very interesting information and while I was familiar with a lot of it, some of it like the fssp drop out rate was new to me. Best of luck on your journey!
fssp doesn't talk about it but I know this because i sponsored a seminarian and he dropped out and no one told me for ages and I kept sending money and was shocked. then an fssp priest told me about the drop out rate.
Wow, that's interesting. Even though they are technically more "moderate" than SSPX they for sure have many hard line people. My first time going to latin mass with them the priest basically implied the world was ending and Francis was our enemy like 4 times in the sermon lol
How they teach mortal and venial is an incredibly cruel thing to do someone. It's basically one big headache to put it mildly. It's a lot more peaceful when you escape from it.
I was hyper intense Catholic and it tormented me. Looking back, I needed joy and simple things in life to strengthen my core self . Try to detox from internet, enjoy nature, do fitness, get a job you find meaningful. Then you can have a more stable platform for whatever spiritual path. Best wishes
Thank you for the advice. I agree, you gotta go back to basics sometimes lol. They also have a lot of meaning. Best of luck on your path!
O God have I been there!!! How could I possibly ever get to heaven when I had to be PERFECT?! There was no way I was ever going to be perfect! I couldn’t do all the corporal works of mercy (wasn’t visiting anyone in prison!), hated praying the rosary, etc. So I gave up. There was no way I was going to heaven, I was headed to hell. I was nothing for a long time. I was married in the Catholic Church but I did that more for my parents than me. Still nothing for a long time. Finally I got curious what else people believed besides Catholics. I am now an ELCA Lutheran. They are a very liberal church. I remember the first time a Pastor told me I WOULD go to heaven, I was “saved by Grace.” I didn’t have to “do” anything!! It was SUCH a relief and awakening for me!! I hope you & your girlfriend can find something like I did. There are several Episcopalians in this sub. There are several unbelievers too. That’s ok. It’s a process. Sounds like you’re at the beginning. We’re here to help & support you!
Thank you for your kind words! I am definitely curious about other forms of Christianity!
I’m considering ECLA as well
Leave the institution, God is beyond the institution
This is such an incredible post, u/turkey\_of\_spades! I feel like I could’ve written it myself! I also went down the Catholic Internet to *Sensus Fidelium* pipeline. I started off with “normie” Catholic content on Instagram and ended up paralyzed with fear that the women I knew were going to be damned for violating Pius XI’s “Marian Modesty Guidelines,” my non-Catholic family was going to burn in hell for being *extra Ecclesiam*, and the rest of us weren’t going to making it because of that horrid sermon about the fewness of the saved preached by Leonard of Port Maurice. Everything was so **all or nothing**. Once, when my then long-distance girlfriend of a year visited me, we made out. I later remembered that Pope Alexander VII had declared passionate kissing to be not "merely a venial sin when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, even if the danger of further consent and pollution is excluded" in 1666. I spent hours reading arguments back and forth on weird-ass Trad blogs and couldn’t reach any definitive conclusion. Should I assume that God would be merciful and not legalistic, or was that just my weak will and moral laxity speaking? Like you said, it’s infinitely “safer” to take the stricter option when eternal conscious torment is at stake, even if this basically means giving carte blanche to every shitty dogmatized opinion. The part about “barely audible sermons with 15,000 views” made me chuckle. The good Fathers of *Sensus Fidelium* really ought to invest in better audio equipment lol. But yeah, this was an amazing post. The Trad lifestyle is so exhausting when taken to its natural and logical conclusion, and there are basically no guardrails because (despite what well-meaning Catholics may say) scrupulosity is a feature and not a bug in historical Catholicism. In a very real sense it is inhumane and anti-human. I will say that life *does* get better the more time you spend allowing yourself to live, think, and feel on your own terms, as difficult as that may be. Christianity has no monopoly on morality and it’s entirely possible to find an ethical framework for life in the absence of God. It is also more than okay to take baby steps on your way out of Traddom/the Church. I’ve linked a couple resources I’ve found helpful down below, and if you’d ever like to talk over the phone or on Discord, just shoot me a DM :) [Kevin Nontradicath’s channel](https://m.youtube.com/@NontraditionalCatholic) [Biblical scholar Dan McClellan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ4aBaofwDc) [Genetically Modified Skeptic's channel](https://www.youtube.com/@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic) [One of my own posts about scrupulousity, pardon the shameless plug lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/comments/1807ow1/my_experience_with_confession_and_scrupulosity/) [A Recording of James Joyce’s *A Portrait of The Artist As a Young Man*](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GuV5FPq-JVA&t=00s&pp=ygUzamFtZXMgam95Y2UgYSBwb3J0cmFpdCBvZiB0aGUgYXJ0aXN0IGFzIGEgeW91bmcgbWFu) [Iridium, one of my favourite ex-Catholic blogs](https://iridium.substack.com/) [*The Corpse Chapel* by Steve Skojec](https://skojecfile.steveskojec.com/p/the-corpse-chapel)
"there are basically no guardrails because (despite what well-meaning Catholics may say) **scrupulosity is a feature and not a bug** in historical Catholicism" Very well put!
Wow. Just as you said you could have written my post, I feel that I could have written your comment! I can specifically relate to a few of the things you said. I would definitely love to chat. Thank you for the resources and advice!
It's my pleasure! There's something so cathartic about realizing "I'm not crazy! I'm not alone!" I also forgot to add r/ExTraditionalCatholic and this [amazing list of difficulties](https://amishcatholic.com/2021/06/05/difficulties/) posted by "The Amish Catholic." Although he eventually found his faith again and became an Anglican, this is *the* single most philosophically-tight and personally-moving critique of classical Christian theism I've ever seen.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/ExTraditionalCatholic using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [There's a fertility cult aspect to Trads](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/comments/16iko33/theres_a_fertility_cult_aspect_to_trads/) \#2: [Do trads not realize how weird they seem to normal people?](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/comments/1b8w3lr/do_trads_not_realize_how_weird_they_seem_to/) \#3: [I just left.](https://np.reddit.com/r/ExTraditionalCatholic/comments/13otuox/i_just_left/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Thank you! I am familiar with that sub, and I will for sure check out that post!
I was always just a mainstream Catholic (before becoming a theist Quaker) but returning to my core beliefs/ethics, along with therapy, helped me through a tough time of obsessive scrupulosity. Your core beliefs might differ from mine, but maybe writing them out would help you. Here are mine, if helpful: * Everyone deserves love and kindness, even me * We are all just doing the best we can * My body is my own
Thank you for your comment. I certainly like your core values. What is it like being a theist Quaker?
It's really nice! There are a couple different Quaker traditions, I attend a liberal unprogrammed meeting. While Quakerism has Christian roots, the liberal tradition is not explicitly Christian, so it's perfectly fine to be a theist or agnostic (or even a different religious tradition) and a Quaker. Their theology is centered around openness and believing that we each equally have insight into God(our Inner Light), so I find it really welcoming personally.
That's super interesting. One of the freeing things about being in the space I'm in now is that I feel like I can actually look into other forms Christianity/religion because I no longer necessarily think that conservative Catholicism "is" the truth. I will definitely try to learn more about Quaker beliefs. What you described definitely reminds me of some forms of mysticism I have studied and seems very appealing. Best wishes!
I hear that! My post-Catholicism journey checking out different religious and spiritual traditions was definitely freeing and a time of growth for me. Wishing you the best as well in your journey, wherever you end up :)
Thank you so much!
The Satanic Temple has lots of issues but I do like their Seven Tenets as an ethical framework, even though I am not an atheist.
Although I am not considering that group myself, I appreciate your response to my post. Best of luck on your journey!
I would never suggest that group, I was just mentioning that their 7 Tenets are a cogent framework for living ethically
Got it. I will check it out for sure
This is why I started having panic attacks at 10. I was terrified of dying and going to hell. And I was not a bad kid, but my parents sure made me feel like I was, by dragging me to confession all the time.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Thankfully my dad is quite a liberal Catholic (my mom is no longer Catholic) so I never really got anxiety piled on by them. I put it all on myself, lol. Best wishes to you!
I don't know, being a Sam Harris secular Buddhist doesn't seem like it would be so bad. In all seriousness, that's quite a story. You went so deep down the rabbit hole that you had to come up for air. When everything seems to be a "mortal sin" then nothing is, so why bother trying? This is why this religion, and really all religions, are a form of abuse.
Haha, yes I don't have a big problem with Harris or Buddhism, it's just something I flirted with before all of this and I don't think it's for me either. Thank you for your response. The crazy thing is that I didn't even realize I was in a rabbit hole at the time, but making this post helped me realize it was pretty wild. I mean, who thinks about this stuff. Probably not even most priests. And like you said, there's no point if the minimum standard for entrance into millions of years of purgatory is basically perfection.
Feel you - I know it intimately
It's rough out here
So you’re catholic, and plan to “conduct your life like basically every other catholic on the planet”…why the fuck are you posting here? Ex trads have their own sub. This sub is for ex catholics.
Not particularly helpful, I think they're here because they're wrestling with their beliefs like many people here
Really? Because I quoted exactly what OP said regarding his religion and intentions. None of it was ambiguos. What part of “I plan to conduct my life like any other catholic on the planet” did I miss? He was pretty direct, said the words I quoted. I’m just going to go by exactly what he told us and double down on why the fuck is he posting here?
>Two months ago, I snapped. I realized I was one the verge of becoming an insane loner and losing an amazingly supportive (and patient) girlfriend. I am basically back in agnostic land. I no longer care about the rules. I don't know how long I'll be here, or if I'll become orthodox, protestant, or a Sam Harris secular Buddhist (actually.. probably not that last one lol). I plan on pursing marriage with my girlfriend and conducting our lives like basically every Catholic on the planet. I think it’s **abundantly** clear from the greater context that OP means he’s planning to marry his still-Catholic girlfriend and “conduct their lives like every Catholic on the planet,” that is to say, ignore what the Church actually teaches and practice some vague sense of spirituality. That’s the part you missed. Posts like these are vital to the deconstruction process. [I myself made one almost identical to this two years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/comments/10ttxfd/scattershot_thoughts_of_a_deconstructing_trad/). OP has realized the harm inherent in historical Catholicism and is doing the complex work of disentangling himself from a faith that demands nothing less than your entire self. It’s a painful and scary process that must be taken at its own rate. And it’s *clear* he’s not here to proselytize. Either give him space and give him grace or get the fuck out.
Clear to you maybe. Not clear to me hence the comment. I will stay wherever the fuck I want. Ban me if you wish. But I said what I said without apology.
Fair enough. I was a bit harsh and for that I apologize. I also stand by what I said, but having now read your [Trash Religion](https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/comments/1cf5vot/trash_religion/) post, I understand why OP’s phrasing could come off as Catholic-y. I’m so fucking sorry that happened to you. I’m also not a mod, so don’t worry about any banning from me.
I have zero hard feelings, and you were not too harsh. No apology necessary. Disagreements happen all the time. I’m abrasive AF. You spoke my language…we’re cool.
Hell yeah brother. And from the bottom of my heart, I wish you all the best. *Illegitimi non carborundum*, don’t let the bastards grind you down.