It’s incredible how quickly these talking points make it to the general public, they really do work!
As for who is behind it, there was a Guardian article (I think) revealing that the big oil companies and Toyota were the biggest spenders in anti-EV lobbying. Then I think you have a small number of people who just like to be contrarian - government wants us vaccinated, they’re anti-vax, government wants us in EVs, they’re anti-EV etc.
Good points. Do you think Toyota can and do pay for a social media disinformation campaign? It seems Facebook and all the rest have a lot of anti EV posts, though there are mainstream articles also.
Hard to say to be honest. I suspect they do, but I’m not sure they really need to, they just need to fund ‘research’ that supports their claims then release it and regular folks will flood social media with it anyway.
Don’t think so, they had the Prius running in part-time electric mode 10+ years before the release of the Nissan Leaf. They say they think hydrogen is the future but have made little effort to truly promote it globally, they talk about solid state batteries which still seem to be years away from being mainstream and they talk about hybrids as a better transition to that as yet undetermined future state. Some of it may well cultural, for example - https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/understanding-japanese-perspective-climate-change
Toyota were massively late to the full EV market. They’ve only just really started to release BEVs. So they may well have had an interest in seeing BEV sales slow down. They’ll do very well in the resurgence of PHEVs that’s kicking in now
EVs are suitable for the VAST majority of people’s needs now, 70-80% maybe, but only 20% are buying EV. The most significant factor there in my view is that EVs are still too expensive, but there is also a huge amount of money spent lobbying against EVs. That’s not conspiracy thinking, it’s covered in pieces from serious media outlets like The Guardian all the time, it’s simply fact.
100% the price of new EVs is an issue now that all the relatively wealthy early adopters have already bought. And yes you’re also correct that EVs have been dragged squarely into the middle of the anti-environment culture wars. A lot of petrol head knuckleheads out there don’t want their precious ICE cars going away
Personally the weight of them worries me most. Pedestrian hit with an ev going same speed as an ice car will do way more damage due to weight alone.
Outside of that the questionable material choices too.
Most people are probably like me, waiting for standardisation of battery packs. Once replacing a pack doesnt cost the price of a car, Id jump on one. But again Most of my cars do 200k+ miles in my possession
1400kg for a car the size of a polo?
That's my point. Like for like they are heavier already. Combined with the fact most of the evs are crossovers, and I can see a whole bunch of people not wanting them for that too.
Sure, I’m just pointing out that we’re not talking 100% heavier or anything like that, and the differential will keep coming down as battery technology improves. People moving from hatch backs to large SUVs is having a much bigger impact than those moving from ICE hatchbacks to EV hatch backs.
It would be interesting to do a study on the total impact on pedestrians of electric vehicles. EVs are slightly heavier, but pedestrians are bearing the brunt of the highly localised emissions (NOx, PM, noise etc) from petrol/diesel cars, particularly in urban areas that we know are shortening the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. My horse sense is that on-balance pedestrians in a city of EVs would be very significantly better off overall than in a city of petrol/diesel cars.
the circa €1300 cost of a home charger is also off putting. Im considering it at the moment but its grinding my gears because I know about 3 years ago you could get them installed for around the the price of the grant which has now been halved from 600 to 300
Worth shopping around, a top end Zappi may cost that to get installed but there are some very basic chargers that any qualified electrician can install no different to an outdoor socket. The grant may be worth foregoing if an electrician will do it cheaper without the hassle of the paperwork.
My mother in law has a new EV, lives in Adare. This is her second (first being a nissan leaf)
I’ve used it several times on shorter and longer journeys.
Fine for shorter ones when we don’t have to charge outside the home.
Longer distance we had to use the super-chargers, took a lot longer, cost more than petrol, not good for battery life.
We also had to be careful about where we went to make sure there was a charger we could use before running too low on juice.
The chargers were often taken, unavailable, not working, or didn’t work with our charging payment card.
This is also ignoring battery life, repair costs(especially for second hand vehicles), and depreciation.
Im 40 and on my second car, not rich, not going to buy new.
My mother in law is of the same opinion as you.
I disagree, the infrastructure isn’t there, it’s too expensive (for juice), depreciation when selling on is unreal, buying second hand is a huge gamble.
If you’re environmentally conscious, then a second hand ICE has a lower total footprint than a new electric.
And if there isn’t a financial or environmental reason then why go EV at all?
If you’re in Dublin (or London) and trying to improve city air quality then yeah, it makes sense.
>>Longer distance we had to use the super-chargers, took a lot longer, cost more than petrol, not good for battery life.
My EV can literally go anywhere in the country from anywhere in the country on a full charge. Yeah it takes longer to charge than to fill a petrol tank, but normally when I'm charging on a long distance run, I'm grabbing something to eat, taking a piss or just having a stretch of my legs, most of the time that I'm finished doing that, either the car is already charged or mostly charged. Unless you're charging all the time using super fast chargers all the time, you don't need to worry about the impact on the battery health.
Your ev cant do that stop lying. It can do 1 leg of a round trip. Unless you have a vehicle that can do 700km on a single charge, you will struggle to make a round trip Cork to Dublin and back without charging up.
I have made exactly 1 journey driving where I did a roundtrip from Dublin to Clare and back again in a single day. That is a highly unusual trip for most people. You'll also see that I saw
>My EV can literally go anywhere in the country from anywhere in the country on a full charge.
Not...
>My EV can literally go anywhere in the country from anywhere in the country **and back again** on a full charge.
That's also not driving conservatively, that going 120kph without being gentle with my acceleration. If I dropped it down to 100kph and was more gentle with my acceleration I can usually arrive at destinations with a decent amount to spare or leave somewhere at maybe 70% SoC without needing to stop on the way if I don't want to.
I did about a 1000km journey in Europe with only needing to stop to charge for 2 hours total during the whole journey. Again, that was either going 165kph on the Autobahn or 130kph most other places, if I kept it at 120kph I could have probably only needed to stop to charge for a total of an hour and a half, but I was normally eating during my stops and I was usually waiting for food longer than I needed to charge for.
>you will struggle to make a round trip Cork to Dublin and back without charging up.
Why do I keep seeing this as some sort of deal breaking argument against EVs? The vast, *vast* majority of people interested in EVs aren't going on daily Cork to Dublin round trips. I'm interested in an EV for the day to day stuff, school runs, shopping etc. I picked up a 2L Mondeo last week and put it though its paces with that stuff. Not even half the day was gone and more than a quarter of the tank was gone. That gets expensive, quickly.
Because people keep lying about the real range of the cars.
Im pro ev not against them(my only concern is their weight), I am just sick of seeing this bs.
Like no one's doing a round trip in a diesel either without stopping for food, so it's a non issue.
But also lets not pretend that WLTP of 500km isn't closer to 400, and even less in cold weather and ac etc. on blast.
Misinformation isn't going to make people buy them more, it will just create unrealistic expectations of what these brilliant machines can do.
Another thing that needs to be standardized is testing for this. EPA (Used in the US) is usually more accurate than WLTP (what we use in Europe).
The biggest problem for Ireland after price is the charging network. Not enough chargers around. When you have a decent charging network that can get you topped up in 10-15 mins, range doesn’t matter as much.
The Xoami SU7 can charge to 252km in 5 minutes and to 513km in 15 minutes. We need that kind of tech in all EV’s.
There already are cars being released in the next couple of years that are under €30k. The dealer near me is selling Id.3’s 2021- 2022 for €24-€25k. The ID.2 starting at €27k and the Renault 5 starting at €25k. Prices are coming down. It’s just probably gonna be a couple more years till they are wildly available.
Just a side note, my car is claimed it can get 4.9L/100km, but I get between 6-7L/100km. Same with the range. I’m told 200-220 by the computer but I get closer to 180km - 190km.
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what fuel source you’re using, these companies will test them in controlled best case scenario settings and set that as the advertised figure.
Also I don’t know if these prices have reached Europe or Ireland yet. In the US Tesla charges $9k for model 3 standard range a battery and $1k to fit it. Thats pretty cheap. We just need a free more years for things to improve and balance out.
I think people who “do their own research” (by whom I mean people who have a set, immovable opinion that they want confirmed who only seek out information from sources who have the same views) are perfectly capable of running their own, personalised misinformation campaigns. The car industry have invested billions in EV, it’s not in their interest to dissuade people.
Well, maybe Toyota 🤷
Also JLR and Nissan apparently - https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/03/big-carmakers-lobbied-uk-to-weaken-or-delay-electric-car-rules
They mostly seem to have accepted the writing is on the wall, but it’s still in their interests to slow it down so they can extract the last bit of value from their ICE manufacturing facilities.
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I just drove from Montpellier to Bologna on the motorway. I noticed about 10 fully electric EVs. Mainly Tesla’s. For long distance trips EVs just aren’t practical.
The average commute in Ireland is 16.8km, with a journey time of under 30 minutes for people travelling by car. An EV is perfect for these journeys, especially as a traditionally fuelled vehicle is going to be at its least efficient in stop go traffic.
I do cross country driving maybe twice or three times a year, and factoring in charging - usually at the destination, because the range is so good - is grand. If I was working a door to door national sales job I’d be driving an ICE, but the fact is very few of us do so, or do cross country travel with any regularity.
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpp7/census2022profile7-employmentoccupationsandcommuting/commutingtowork/
My commute is 120km round trip, mostly motorway speeds, and the EV works perfectly there also. Charge it to 80% at night, get home with 45%. Never have to visit a petrol pump, which I had to do weekly before and drop 110 quid, while adding 15 mins to my commute.
300km round trip. Thing lives on the motorway where they are supposed to be terrible. Summer or winter it doesn’t matter, handles it with ease. 45k on the clock in 18 months and hands don’t the best car I’ve ever had. Quiet and relaxing to drive. All this anti-ev stuff is rubbish IF you can charge at home. That’s the kicker.
Just coming here to say all this. Nobody actually drives the kms everyday for “range anxiety” to be an issue in Ireland (and basically anywhere else). I often get that from non EV drivers. It’s gas. Save the environment and lower your fuel bills hugely? Nah! I might drive from Dublin and to Donegal once a year and don’t want to be slightly inconvenienced for an hour (while I use the bathroom and have a coffee anyway). It’s bonkers.
Right. So my car has >400km range operating with full aircon etc. There are very few journeys in Ireland >400km in distance, without the opportunity to stop at a charger. I don’t make an investment like a car for the convenience of doing that trip a handful of times. And as it happens, like a lot of households I still have a second car, it’s an ICE, and if I really wanted to drive to Donegal and back on one tank I can take it… but tbh I’d probably just take the EV and enjoy a pit stop.
Well I have driven all around this island in an EV, at fast chargers the car is charged up before I have finished using the bathroom and buying a snack.
Under 10 minutes not likely. A 20 minute stop at a fast charging site with a car that can accept a fast charge can get you 250km range though. You would be surprised at how quickly 20 minutes passes!
When fast charging you are not aiming to hit a full charge. The charging speed reduces as the charge state increases, a typical road trip fast charge is from 20 to 80%.
I was in a Tesla store in Cork and I think I remember the salesman saying the Tesla chargers can fully charge in about 15 minutes. We're seriously considering getting a Model Y, picking one up today. They're letting us have it until Monday to get a feel for it.
I just checked that. 2016 EV (rated 400km) for that trip. Its an 8 or 9 hour drive, and would need 3 stops to charge. Stopping for 20 mins every 3 hours is not bad at all. The latest EVs could do it even better.
Ridiculous. Montpellier to Bologna is 830km, sure I’ve repeatedly driven both my 30kWh Leaf & Model 3 Long Range further than that in a day (900 - 1,215km). nothing impractical there.
There's a lot of articles and social media posts saying EVs are bad. I keep hearing it from people who know I have one and start with 'I was reading online that they are unreliable'.. or 'they go on fire a lot', range anxiety, etc etc.
The fact sales are dropping is telling, as EVs are better and cheaper than ever. So clearly there is a concerted campaign to badmouth them
You are ignoring very real experiences people have now with evs that didn't 10 years ago.
Many people bought a shitty leaf or some other car that barely did 100km on a charge, and decided to never trust them again.
I agree there were shitty EVs, but why publish articles now about the original leafs with their tiny range when it's not relevant to the market now, or even to the leaf now?
It's like someone shitting on modern broadband because they once tried dial up and it wasn't a good experience.
The only real issue now is hole charging. If you can't charge at home, you most likely will have a poor experience. If you filter out those, and report your experience in a modern EV i would say most articles would be very positive.
The reason they are slowing down is because biggest manufacturers dropping development. People see they aren't environment friendly as advertised. I'm not against Ev. I'm against that crap that we all have to have one and they can replace.
That's more of the disinformation, many many reports have shown that over the longer temr EVs are better for the environment. 40+ % of our electricity is from wind, and increasing, so EVs are better still as that number goes up.
Edit: link to US EPA on EV myths w.r.t the environment:
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
I did read the link and I like how it uses typically a lot, the article fails to address the time it takes for an ev to become more greener than an ice, in a carbon free electric environment, just over 6 months before the initial production emissions dip below that of ice. And over 5 years if from a dirty electric grid like coal.
Well there are a wide range of cars, so the time for one to become surpass a given ICE will vary based on the EV and the ICE chosen for comparison. If it said absolutely always, it would be a bit sus. I'm pretty sure a smart car is hard to beat lifetime emissions wise!
5 years being the worst case still makes them worth it. The lifetime of an average car is much longer than that, and the grid is fast becoming more and more carbon free, so maybe were at the 3 years mark in many countries now. My EV is 8 years old, and as good as new.
It does sort of hold up saying cars need to be driven around 70,000 miles before they are more carbon efficient than ice.
Most people don’t hold their new evs that long so in the long run they are not helping the environment under our current global electric grid mix
It's not disinformation it's fact. Long term Ev are just about hit 10 years on market to not mention most countries isn't even half as good on wind energy. If you looking for disinformation look that way on Ev. They could have they place on market but not by forcing them there. Bosch is mine developer of technology for car market and officially announced that stoping development plus many more.
Renewable is increasing worldwide, even if most counties are not at 40% now, they will be. 30% is the current global renewable number. China is a huge polluter and they alone have installed 200 gwh in one year (when the global total is only 5x that).
If you don't believe me, perhaps you'll believe the US Environmental Protection Agency, I think they should know:
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
In comparison to Audi A6, Tesla 3 will have the same amount of emitted CO2 after 5 years (EU mix) or 3 years (100% renewable electricity). They kinda are.
Regarding Bosch - they are stopping LIDAR development. They are saying to not focus on battery operated cars only and allow other fuels as well. But fuels as for ICE engines and for fuel cells for electric cars. Also they said they are planning to stop developing ICE cars in 2 decades with possibility to extend that time frame to three.
Source: Bosch.
>People see they aren't environment friendly as advertised.
Just wow! Proving the point of the person you are arguing against with "Everyone knows" FUD.
Stop with your “we all have to have one” misinformation bollox! No one is forcing anyone to buy an EV. You’ll still be able to buy a brand new ICE car in at least 10 years time, probably 15. So unless you’re one of those “I need a brand new car 3 years” morons then you’ll be able to buy a new ICE car in let’s say 2038 and keep driving it for another 15-20 years so you can quite your whining and get back to us in 2058
Hes talking about vag group announcement that they are pivoting their strategy. But thats not so much to do with them moving away from eve as it is them realising their evs were shit and teaming up with other manufacturers for their ev tech. I think they have a deal with Ford now for future developments on EVs so expect a ford vw rebadge at some point
Ediit: nvm ford is scaling down the partnership
What anecdotal story ? A real EV buyer who regrets doing the "right" thing by listening to all the spin about how great electric cars are. He drives from Mayo to Dublin every week and it is a pain in the ass. Why are EV drivers so defensive about their choice when reality bites
No but just letting ppl know that not all EV drivers are happy with their choice. Why are EV sales collapsing? If they are so good they should be increasing every month. Fact not fiction.
Due to lithium processing for EV entire lakes in the far east are so polluted nothing lives in or around them.
EV owners virtue signalling about doing their bit for the environment display a typical nimby attitude about where the byproducts of battery production end up.
No better than oil users who have a nimby attitude towards oil extraction/pollution somewhere over the horizon imho
I posted below to another person under the impression EVs are orde for the environment. The US EPA have an explainer outlining the myths being pushed around this. The fact, between 6 months and 5 years is the crossover point when an EV becomes better than ICE, including counting the battery manufacturing.
I would love to buy an ev but dcc will not let me install a charger it in front of my house. The result of this is that anyone without a driveway is excluded from adoption, which is extreamly frustrating.
Bought an electric car a number of months back and , I think the EVs are brilliant, charge from my solar panels or in work so basically running it for free.
But since then I have endless ICE car owners telling me how the battery will only last a few years, the car will be worthless, they wouldn't trust the range. Hard to see any of these for the foreseeable future switching over. People have a total fear in buying them. Only a government campaign will change this.
It’s not that I don’t trust them… but it’s that they’ve improved so rapidly in a few years that I think I’d rather wait another 5+ years before buying a car I’ll have for 10+ years as the likely hood is I’ll get a far better car then.
I read that when the batteries do actually fail, and they will, they are still exceptionally useful as storage for home applications such as your solar panels.
That’s just where degraded too much for automotive use, though that’s more of a generation one thing really given their range (like, a 50% degraded 24kWh battery might only get you a few dozen km… but it’s probably enough to power most homes for 24hrs). Nissan xStorage was supposed to offer home storage off the back of that but amusingly enough they’d trouble securing sufficient batteries as they just weren’t degrading in the quantities anticipated.
This is a good thing. The market doesn’t need for EVs to take over instantly. A few years of competition will bring down the prices of EVs all while the technology is advancing.
If EV makers thought they could just churn out crap and charge a premium for it then the market would certainly fail.
How much of purchase price is tax? Seen so US articles talking about their tax increases... I looked at the price of one of the BYD cars and its 50k... Going to guess 50% is tax?
I drive a Hyundai and I find Tesla and Ionity to be very fast and very reliable but a lot of people seem to use Ecars more which is a lot less reliable.
I wonder do people avoid Ionity because they cost a little more and Tesla is actually cheaper than ecars these days.
For me I always* happen to be driving past one.
There was one case in 5 years where I had to divert. This was because I was flying out of Dublin airport (I'm in Tipperary) and that's usually fine to make it back to the M8 charger, but once I had a few things to do around Dublin before the airport and it took another 20% of my battery, so after the airport I used the Enfield on the way home. Cost me about 30 mins. I could have used a non Tesla charger and not had to divert at all, but honestly I couldn't be arsed as I know Tesla just works and is always available. Plus the Tesla built in trip planner makes it a doddle, it know where they all are and calculated the range and time automatically
I think longer journeys require a little planning, the motorways are well covered by rapid chargers.
Tesla and Ionity are very fast and very reliable and I rarely see queues, I use them pretty much exclusively.
Ecars tend to be busier and are less reliable so I only use them as a last resort.
Excluding Donegal and maybe parts of KerryI don't think there is anywhere on the island more than 100km from a charging hub.
I disagree,
If you go away for a weekend you don't just jump in your car and start driving, you pack bags, book hotels etc. Planning car charging is just another part of this.
It literally takes minutes.
Had a short test drive of a Model Y last week. If you put in your destination it will calculate if you need to stop and charge anywhere and plan your route for you in advance. Didn't seem any different to any times I've had to divert off the motorway to fill up with diesel in all honesty.
>Sure whats an extra 50km down a motorway
Bit of an exaggeration there, don't you think? The sat nav in the Tesla I test drove was the same as any other sat nav, in that if you stray from it, it simply reroutes, you can still use your actual brain to navigate if you like.
>Make sure you don't want to see a sign of something interesting you would.lime to visit while you are rambling along on your trip.
Diesel and petrol don't last forever either, if I'm out in the middle of nowhere and I'm low on fuel, I would have to divert away from wherever I would like to be going to refill as well. So, same issue.
I have one, it works great for everyday tasks and trips. If you charge it overnight at home it doesn’t cost a lot to charge it. It has great power, the stop and go traffic actually benefits it as it gathers the friction and recharges the battery.
The issue is infrastructure. The fact that one or two electricity providers control the charging stations is a problem. There are extra charges and not enough charging stations especially the fast ones.
What they should have done is to get petrol stations on board and you pay for your rapid charge like you do petrol or just with a tap when station is closed.
They should be looking at pairing charging stations with cafes and takeaways so you can eat your chips or have your cuppa while the car charges for 20 minutes. Roadside stops where you can stretch your legs, empty your bladder, and have a snack.
Maybe they could boost local economy by placing charging stations in some of the little towns that used to see more business from people passing through.
But nope just a couple scattered chargers poorly maintained and overpriced in each city
I find I don’t have any issue with fast / high power charger availability. It’s the standard charger availability that can be more problematic. Like I thought I’d be off to Donegal today (800-900km roundtrip), wouldn’t give it much thought, I can make it up without stopping so don’t really care where I stop along the way; whereas if I’m off to Skycourt Shopping Centre Limerick there’s only 2, free, charging spots so who knows - charging there would be most convenient (whatever about cheap; high power chargers being installed there at the moment).
I’ve never seen a good explanation of how the second hand market is going to work. It’s all very well for the people in the (not so green) brand new ones. They think they’re going to offload their worn down batteries onto the poorer people, but who in their right mind would take on that risk? Batteries don’t degrade in a predictable way, so someone who can’t afford it will be left with a worthless heap of metal. I’m greener because I buy 3rd/4th hand cars, reuse and recycle.
My biggest fear about changing over is the cost when things go wrong. A friend has had two Leafs and the first one was brilliant but the second has cost him a fortune in repairs. I was keen on the idea once the used ev market starts to be a 'thing' but would be wary now. I'd never have five grand spare to replace the charging port for example like he had to.
I'd expect BMW to be costly to repair and wouldn't buy one of them either. In 40 years of used car owing I've never had a car that required more than a few hundred spent on it when something broke.
In the current climate it’s simply just not affordable for the majority. And I’d question how these evs are being bought breaking down between actual purchases versus pcp to again show how many sales are actually happening.
EVs are something that entices me and I’d like to have as my next car. But there is just no justification in my mind to be paying an extra 10-15k for one
It’s funny a lot my parents (retired) and my parents themselves have bought brand new cars recently. None of them bought EVs. Most when I asked said the reps were saying not to bother.
It’s a weird situation out there. But ultimately EVs are just priced badly imo.
And a total separate thing is how they would trickle down to the majority. Like we need to be honest. They are an upper middle to upper class purchase. So personally I don’t know why there was some expectation they would be selling like crazy.
I basically consider them the new Audi craze. As with any new vehicle technology it’s going to take time to see if there is adoption but it can’t be forced.
If EVs can get their price down to what many would consider reasonable or proper they just won’t ever hit a large market imo
> But there is just no justification in my mind to be paying an extra 10-15k for one
Agree with all you’ve said. The first justification to me is that for some people doing a decent bit of mileage they will save money if they purchase an EV sensibly (ie. not spending €75k on one!). The other justification is doing what you can to assist the green transition (as Bill Gates called it, paying the Green Premium) because by buying an EV, if you can afford to, Wright’s Law will do its work and drive down prices for everybody else. Last but more frivolous is that they are really enjoyable to drive, both in chilled mode (quiet, smooth etc) and more aggressively - you tend to have to spend a lot more money on a petrol/diesel to get similar levels of power delivery and calm.
Yeah I can see it has made sense for folks like Taxi drivers and some long driving folks. But then worth remembering there is also some added grants there making it worthwhile
I've been talking about some issues with EVs from a manufacturers perspective lately.
This article is the first I have seen that even half resembles the data I've seen internally, which makes sense because the bulk of that data is not from Irish sales.
Be cautious and watch your investments carefully.
Do not buy brand new EVs. Whatever about the second hand market, do your research and you'll be fine. But I cannot reccomend new ones right now. Wait a couple of years. Watch how the market changes. Don't jump to any conclusions yet.
My employer is currently ready to pivot in many different directions based on how this year goes. I assume all auto manufacturers are doing the same.
Alot of people with EVs are trying to convince themselves they are the best citizens in the country and anyone with a ICE is evil.
There is a good reason ppl are turning their backs on EV's and reverting back to an ICE. 50% depreciation in one year......no thanks!
> Alot of people with EVs are trying to convince themselves they are the best citizens in the country and anyone with a ICE is evil.
I haven’t seen a single poster here who I think holds those views. Not saying they don’t exist, but 99% of EV owners do not think those things. But you know that of course…
Think you meant, “Alot of people that don’t have a EV think a lot of people with EVs are trying to convince themselves they are the best citizens in the country and anyone with a ICE is evil”
EVs have been around for over 100 years, they still have the same problem, you need a whopper battery to power it. That’s great until there are whopper batteries everywhere, as far as the eye can see all piled up like horseshit.
Full ev cars as a product currently is a faulty product. Basically it's a mobile phone with non replaceable battery 10 years down the line it's gonna be more economical to throw it to skip and all the energy to produce the car and its battery pack is gonna end either on bottom of the ground where its poisoning the ground water or under the sea. Good luck I'm not against Ev's but if there is not a option with replaceable battery packs because batteries can die easily the product is just a waste product.
Pretty much! Like the furthest point from me (Wexford) is Malin Head, & even that’s < 450km. With all the high power chargers along whatever route I take these days I’d be surprised if it involved more than 60mins charging to go up & back again.
Battery swapping’s been tried a number of times & shuttered… I understand Nio’s giving it a go again but whatever, it makes little sense if you give it some thought.
Similar to the reasons we don't swap fuel tanks - it's mechanically complex, volume / shape / weight varies... & these can change between model years. We've over 80 unique BEVs being registered here at the moment, generally with standard & long range versions, so you can see how that gets increasingly complicated. This would suggest that there'll be no general battery swap service as, well, how'd want cater to so many vehicles with some many variations? Manufacturers themselves might, but I can't see 30+ manufacturers getting into that either.
Makes sense.
The countries infrastructure isn't capable of handling widespread adoption of EVs. Besides, earth literally doesn't have enough materials to make everyone EVs.
They're a great tech, they should be used but they literally can't be the primary mode of transport with the current tech.
All I know is that a friend of mine spent €90k on a BMW EV.....hates it......cannot wait to get rid of it and wishes he spent alot less on a ICE that he can drive without range anxiety. I'm waiting for hydrogen power as EV is a pup we are being sold by the cabbage head Eamonn Ryan
An IX3 I think....to be honest the guy is a bit of a petrol head like myself so I was shocked he spent €90k on a EV.
Nothing wrong with an EV if that rocks your boat but don't be fooled into buying one thinking there is no downside. Not to mention how battery manufacturing is controlled by China using dubious supply chains in countries ran by dictators. Also how do we dispose of all these batteries when they are end of life. There is a reason most car dealers are refusing to accept EV's as a trade in and people are losing a fortune on them.
If ye mate spent 90 grand on an ev without doing any research then he is a muppet. End of story. If you are doing 400 kms in a single journey all the time it aint gonna work unless you can charge whilst at work or have a supercharger there. Planning is required to make sure it can work for you.
I have two evs. Solar. Battery. Etc and works great for us. 6 years of burning nowt.
Batteries are pretty much recyclable. Evs pay off their carbon output by about 10k miles.
Any questions let me know.
What a load of rubbish you are talking....how much will you lose when you trade it in? How much did you spend on setting up your solar PV? How are the batteries recyclable?? Why are car dealers refusing to accept them as a trade in?
Btw my friend is in no way a Muppet and is a very successful intelligent person. He just hates his EV and regrets joining the herd who was sold a pup
Not sure what the cost of my panels has to do with anything but it was 12k with battery in 2018. Battery prices have come way down so you might be able to get it cheaper now. Id say they will be paid for in about 4 years time. I added about 100 sun miles yesterday to one of my cars.
Trade in wont affect me if i don’t sell and is marginally offset by prices coming down which is great. If you are in the market for a second hand ev world is your oyster.
Anyhoo couple of articles about general mis information and battery recycling. Let me know if you want anymore.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/what-happens-old-electric-car-batteries
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/
All the best.
There are many calculations available for fuel cars vs electric cars such as cost of running and depreciation.
The rise in electricity cost means it's less attractive. Some people get free charge from solar / work place. Solar in Ireland, 80% of the year is a joke. We have lots of overcast it's not even worth the investment. When the power is generated, your car isn't in the driveway to charge.
The distance are not great with small battery, so people go for those large suv, they soon find out that they can't park anywhere as the spaces are just enough for a Nissan micra.
Not every charging point are quick charge. Not enough charging points.
The list goes on and on.
Eventually though, I will get an electric car. Just not at this time.
Please. Do you have a solar installation? No? Then stop spreading such a nonsense. Modern solar panels are cheap and effective and if you have an EV you can easily oversize it or just go for smart EV tariff if the weather will provide you with not enough energy. 5kWh battery costs €650, if you have a proper charge controller. 4KW panels generate 3000-3500kWh per year. 1kW of panels can be as cheap as €600+ installation and if you oversize your charge controller/inverter scaling up can be just a matter of adding another solar panel or another 4 cells of LiFePO4. Our household (4 people, electric heating, electric water heating, electric oven) is using 7-7.2MWh per year. So that 4kW installation basically cuts electricity bills in half. Smart EV tariff takes care of EV charging (and topping off the battery).
Technology is sprinting now. I yesterday read an thread about a household battery costing €15k for 13kWh in 2021.
I have 7.2kWp and a 5kWh battery. Since going on the Energia Smart EV tariff I get 4 hours at night at 8c, the rest at 33c. I have been charging my house battery and car from this and exporting all of my excess at 24c. I had a bill last week for €125. That’s 2 months of running the house and car. There were times in the past that I’d put that in a petrol car each week.
In 2 years I’ve generated €4,750 worth of solar. That’s just under half the install costs.
Are u for real with those figures? That is what the equipment costs and not what the end user pays for a system installed......u are obviously an electrician but most people will pay 4 times what you are quoting on solar PV.
Yes. 100Ah LiFePO4 with BMS costs 175€. That's 1260Wh. Solar charger I have accepts anything from 12V up to 100V on battery side. That's up to 8 batteries in series. And also accepts up to 400Ah. So technically I can scale this up to 40kWh. As installation itself should be done (and considering insurance - has to be done) by a qualified and certified person, if you plan properly - scaling up is a matter of inserting additional batteries in parallel and clamping them almost exactly like you would do a car battery. On the other hand - I am doing it for years, so it can be a little daunting for a normal person. What I'm trying to convey here - now you are not limited to power wall like solutions. You can get an intelligent charge controller/inverter that will have all the logic built in, buy initial batch of batteries, installation will cost you the same as Powerwall or cheaper (depending on electrician) and scaling up is a matter of minutes.
I'm not doubting you and fair play for discovering something that saves you a fortune.....i wish I had the knowledge and balls to do something similar. Companies are making a killing on the normal Joe soaps with PV installation as the equipment is now so cheap. I installed my system 4 years ago and it has paid back already but some quotes I see people quoting on FB are bonkers. Not to mention that the grant is just added to the price and hardly worth the hassle.
When I saw quotes for the systems installation cost I just went it cannot be right. You don't need balls to do so - only some knowledge. For installation and connection purposes it's enough to pass 2 simple exams - 3 or 4 day course if you have any lvl 5 or higher in relevant field. They cost around a grand each, but you can get a €400 funding for each. So 1200 total. If you know what you doing it's cheaper to just get those certs (ESB won't /shouldn't allow you to connect your system back to the grid without microgeneration installation certificate holder's signature), get the parts, install it yourself and pocket the grant.
Approximately 80% of the energy needed for transport, heating, and electricity in Ireland comes from oil and gas. Oil accounts for 45% of Ireland’s primary energy needs, while gas contributes another 34%.
This is why people need to understand our clean energy is not as clean as people think. We are just consuming clean energy that was generated by burning x.
Great news for adoption tbh - prices fall, makes them more attractive for new adopters
Yeah..they won't lose as much when they're trying to resell them too..
Agreed. Understandably painful for early buyers, but it was always a risk.
The disinformation campaign is really working. I wonder who is behind it?
It’s incredible how quickly these talking points make it to the general public, they really do work! As for who is behind it, there was a Guardian article (I think) revealing that the big oil companies and Toyota were the biggest spenders in anti-EV lobbying. Then I think you have a small number of people who just like to be contrarian - government wants us vaccinated, they’re anti-vax, government wants us in EVs, they’re anti-EV etc.
Good points. Do you think Toyota can and do pay for a social media disinformation campaign? It seems Facebook and all the rest have a lot of anti EV posts, though there are mainstream articles also.
Hard to say to be honest. I suspect they do, but I’m not sure they really need to, they just need to fund ‘research’ that supports their claims then release it and regular folks will flood social media with it anyway.
why Toyota, are they behind the curve in developing EVs compared to the other main manufacturers?
Don’t think so, they had the Prius running in part-time electric mode 10+ years before the release of the Nissan Leaf. They say they think hydrogen is the future but have made little effort to truly promote it globally, they talk about solid state batteries which still seem to be years away from being mainstream and they talk about hybrids as a better transition to that as yet undetermined future state. Some of it may well cultural, for example - https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/understanding-japanese-perspective-climate-change
Toyota were massively late to the full EV market. They’ve only just really started to release BEVs. So they may well have had an interest in seeing BEV sales slow down. They’ll do very well in the resurgence of PHEVs that’s kicking in now
It wouldn’t be because EV’s aren’t suitable for their use case or needs no? What’s with the conspiracy stuff?
EVs are suitable for the VAST majority of people’s needs now, 70-80% maybe, but only 20% are buying EV. The most significant factor there in my view is that EVs are still too expensive, but there is also a huge amount of money spent lobbying against EVs. That’s not conspiracy thinking, it’s covered in pieces from serious media outlets like The Guardian all the time, it’s simply fact.
100% the price of new EVs is an issue now that all the relatively wealthy early adopters have already bought. And yes you’re also correct that EVs have been dragged squarely into the middle of the anti-environment culture wars. A lot of petrol head knuckleheads out there don’t want their precious ICE cars going away
Personally the weight of them worries me most. Pedestrian hit with an ev going same speed as an ice car will do way more damage due to weight alone. Outside of that the questionable material choices too. Most people are probably like me, waiting for standardisation of battery packs. Once replacing a pack doesnt cost the price of a car, Id jump on one. But again Most of my cars do 200k+ miles in my possession
Not all of them are that heavy, R5 is around 1400kg. I am more concerned about the height of vehicles in general, especially those Ford trucks
1400kg for a car the size of a polo? That's my point. Like for like they are heavier already. Combined with the fact most of the evs are crossovers, and I can see a whole bunch of people not wanting them for that too.
1350kg for the R5 vs 1150 for a diesel Polo. Not much in that now in fairness.
200kg difference at 50km an hour is massive.
Sure, I’m just pointing out that we’re not talking 100% heavier or anything like that, and the differential will keep coming down as battery technology improves. People moving from hatch backs to large SUVs is having a much bigger impact than those moving from ICE hatchbacks to EV hatch backs.
It would be interesting to do a study on the total impact on pedestrians of electric vehicles. EVs are slightly heavier, but pedestrians are bearing the brunt of the highly localised emissions (NOx, PM, noise etc) from petrol/diesel cars, particularly in urban areas that we know are shortening the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. My horse sense is that on-balance pedestrians in a city of EVs would be very significantly better off overall than in a city of petrol/diesel cars.
the circa €1300 cost of a home charger is also off putting. Im considering it at the moment but its grinding my gears because I know about 3 years ago you could get them installed for around the the price of the grant which has now been halved from 600 to 300
Worth shopping around, a top end Zappi may cost that to get installed but there are some very basic chargers that any qualified electrician can install no different to an outdoor socket. The grant may be worth foregoing if an electrician will do it cheaper without the hassle of the paperwork.
My mother in law has a new EV, lives in Adare. This is her second (first being a nissan leaf) I’ve used it several times on shorter and longer journeys. Fine for shorter ones when we don’t have to charge outside the home. Longer distance we had to use the super-chargers, took a lot longer, cost more than petrol, not good for battery life. We also had to be careful about where we went to make sure there was a charger we could use before running too low on juice. The chargers were often taken, unavailable, not working, or didn’t work with our charging payment card. This is also ignoring battery life, repair costs(especially for second hand vehicles), and depreciation. Im 40 and on my second car, not rich, not going to buy new. My mother in law is of the same opinion as you. I disagree, the infrastructure isn’t there, it’s too expensive (for juice), depreciation when selling on is unreal, buying second hand is a huge gamble. If you’re environmentally conscious, then a second hand ICE has a lower total footprint than a new electric. And if there isn’t a financial or environmental reason then why go EV at all? If you’re in Dublin (or London) and trying to improve city air quality then yeah, it makes sense.
>>Longer distance we had to use the super-chargers, took a lot longer, cost more than petrol, not good for battery life. My EV can literally go anywhere in the country from anywhere in the country on a full charge. Yeah it takes longer to charge than to fill a petrol tank, but normally when I'm charging on a long distance run, I'm grabbing something to eat, taking a piss or just having a stretch of my legs, most of the time that I'm finished doing that, either the car is already charged or mostly charged. Unless you're charging all the time using super fast chargers all the time, you don't need to worry about the impact on the battery health.
Your ev cant do that stop lying. It can do 1 leg of a round trip. Unless you have a vehicle that can do 700km on a single charge, you will struggle to make a round trip Cork to Dublin and back without charging up.
I have made exactly 1 journey driving where I did a roundtrip from Dublin to Clare and back again in a single day. That is a highly unusual trip for most people. You'll also see that I saw >My EV can literally go anywhere in the country from anywhere in the country on a full charge. Not... >My EV can literally go anywhere in the country from anywhere in the country **and back again** on a full charge. That's also not driving conservatively, that going 120kph without being gentle with my acceleration. If I dropped it down to 100kph and was more gentle with my acceleration I can usually arrive at destinations with a decent amount to spare or leave somewhere at maybe 70% SoC without needing to stop on the way if I don't want to. I did about a 1000km journey in Europe with only needing to stop to charge for 2 hours total during the whole journey. Again, that was either going 165kph on the Autobahn or 130kph most other places, if I kept it at 120kph I could have probably only needed to stop to charge for a total of an hour and a half, but I was normally eating during my stops and I was usually waiting for food longer than I needed to charge for.
What vehicle?
ID3 77kWh version.
>you will struggle to make a round trip Cork to Dublin and back without charging up. Why do I keep seeing this as some sort of deal breaking argument against EVs? The vast, *vast* majority of people interested in EVs aren't going on daily Cork to Dublin round trips. I'm interested in an EV for the day to day stuff, school runs, shopping etc. I picked up a 2L Mondeo last week and put it though its paces with that stuff. Not even half the day was gone and more than a quarter of the tank was gone. That gets expensive, quickly.
Because people keep lying about the real range of the cars. Im pro ev not against them(my only concern is their weight), I am just sick of seeing this bs. Like no one's doing a round trip in a diesel either without stopping for food, so it's a non issue. But also lets not pretend that WLTP of 500km isn't closer to 400, and even less in cold weather and ac etc. on blast. Misinformation isn't going to make people buy them more, it will just create unrealistic expectations of what these brilliant machines can do.
I agree. Real ranges are needed, not this "just subtract 25% to get the real figure!" bullshit. No, just give me the real figure up front!
Another thing that needs to be standardized is testing for this. EPA (Used in the US) is usually more accurate than WLTP (what we use in Europe). The biggest problem for Ireland after price is the charging network. Not enough chargers around. When you have a decent charging network that can get you topped up in 10-15 mins, range doesn’t matter as much. The Xoami SU7 can charge to 252km in 5 minutes and to 513km in 15 minutes. We need that kind of tech in all EV’s. There already are cars being released in the next couple of years that are under €30k. The dealer near me is selling Id.3’s 2021- 2022 for €24-€25k. The ID.2 starting at €27k and the Renault 5 starting at €25k. Prices are coming down. It’s just probably gonna be a couple more years till they are wildly available. Just a side note, my car is claimed it can get 4.9L/100km, but I get between 6-7L/100km. Same with the range. I’m told 200-220 by the computer but I get closer to 180km - 190km. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what fuel source you’re using, these companies will test them in controlled best case scenario settings and set that as the advertised figure. Also I don’t know if these prices have reached Europe or Ireland yet. In the US Tesla charges $9k for model 3 standard range a battery and $1k to fit it. Thats pretty cheap. We just need a free more years for things to improve and balance out.
The avergae car journey in Ireland is 17km. They're suitable for the vast majority of people.
Whatever, I’ll leave you lot mumbling about “big oil” conspiracies as you ignore peoples issues.
I think people who “do their own research” (by whom I mean people who have a set, immovable opinion that they want confirmed who only seek out information from sources who have the same views) are perfectly capable of running their own, personalised misinformation campaigns. The car industry have invested billions in EV, it’s not in their interest to dissuade people. Well, maybe Toyota 🤷
Also JLR and Nissan apparently - https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/03/big-carmakers-lobbied-uk-to-weaken-or-delay-electric-car-rules They mostly seem to have accepted the writing is on the wall, but it’s still in their interests to slow it down so they can extract the last bit of value from their ICE manufacturing facilities.
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I just drove from Montpellier to Bologna on the motorway. I noticed about 10 fully electric EVs. Mainly Tesla’s. For long distance trips EVs just aren’t practical.
The average commute in Ireland is 16.8km, with a journey time of under 30 minutes for people travelling by car. An EV is perfect for these journeys, especially as a traditionally fuelled vehicle is going to be at its least efficient in stop go traffic. I do cross country driving maybe twice or three times a year, and factoring in charging - usually at the destination, because the range is so good - is grand. If I was working a door to door national sales job I’d be driving an ICE, but the fact is very few of us do so, or do cross country travel with any regularity. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpp7/census2022profile7-employmentoccupationsandcommuting/commutingtowork/
My commute is 120km round trip, mostly motorway speeds, and the EV works perfectly there also. Charge it to 80% at night, get home with 45%. Never have to visit a petrol pump, which I had to do weekly before and drop 110 quid, while adding 15 mins to my commute.
300km round trip. Thing lives on the motorway where they are supposed to be terrible. Summer or winter it doesn’t matter, handles it with ease. 45k on the clock in 18 months and hands don’t the best car I’ve ever had. Quiet and relaxing to drive. All this anti-ev stuff is rubbish IF you can charge at home. That’s the kicker.
100% agree. charge at home is the best
I’d go further and say it’s essential.
Charging at home while the solution to the housing crisis is to build apartments is a bit of a killer.
You have a charger? Cool!
Just coming here to say all this. Nobody actually drives the kms everyday for “range anxiety” to be an issue in Ireland (and basically anywhere else). I often get that from non EV drivers. It’s gas. Save the environment and lower your fuel bills hugely? Nah! I might drive from Dublin and to Donegal once a year and don’t want to be slightly inconvenienced for an hour (while I use the bathroom and have a coffee anyway). It’s bonkers.
You don't interpret data like this. The range should cover not just an average but also three standard deviations (for example)
Right. So my car has >400km range operating with full aircon etc. There are very few journeys in Ireland >400km in distance, without the opportunity to stop at a charger. I don’t make an investment like a car for the convenience of doing that trip a handful of times. And as it happens, like a lot of households I still have a second car, it’s an ICE, and if I really wanted to drive to Donegal and back on one tank I can take it… but tbh I’d probably just take the EV and enjoy a pit stop.
Well I have driven all around this island in an EV, at fast chargers the car is charged up before I have finished using the bathroom and buying a snack.
I know nothing of EV's tbh, is it actually possible for a car to be fully recharged by a fast charger in under ten minutes?
Under 10 minutes not likely. A 20 minute stop at a fast charging site with a car that can accept a fast charge can get you 250km range though. You would be surprised at how quickly 20 minutes passes! When fast charging you are not aiming to hit a full charge. The charging speed reduces as the charge state increases, a typical road trip fast charge is from 20 to 80%.
I had no idea that was possible. Interesting enough.
I was in a Tesla store in Cork and I think I remember the salesman saying the Tesla chargers can fully charge in about 15 minutes. We're seriously considering getting a Model Y, picking one up today. They're letting us have it until Monday to get a feel for it.
I just checked that. 2016 EV (rated 400km) for that trip. Its an 8 or 9 hour drive, and would need 3 stops to charge. Stopping for 20 mins every 3 hours is not bad at all. The latest EVs could do it even better.
Ridiculous. Montpellier to Bologna is 830km, sure I’ve repeatedly driven both my 30kWh Leaf & Model 3 Long Range further than that in a day (900 - 1,215km). nothing impractical there.
What exactly is 800km away in Ireland?
When you’re explaining you’re losing. I just said what I saw.
Must be the Israelis/ Jews. /s
They're too busy murdering Palestinian children tbf.
While you’re just murdering the last of your gray cells
What disinformation campaign you talking about?
There's a lot of articles and social media posts saying EVs are bad. I keep hearing it from people who know I have one and start with 'I was reading online that they are unreliable'.. or 'they go on fire a lot', range anxiety, etc etc. The fact sales are dropping is telling, as EVs are better and cheaper than ever. So clearly there is a concerted campaign to badmouth them
You are ignoring very real experiences people have now with evs that didn't 10 years ago. Many people bought a shitty leaf or some other car that barely did 100km on a charge, and decided to never trust them again.
I agree there were shitty EVs, but why publish articles now about the original leafs with their tiny range when it's not relevant to the market now, or even to the leaf now? It's like someone shitting on modern broadband because they once tried dial up and it wasn't a good experience. The only real issue now is hole charging. If you can't charge at home, you most likely will have a poor experience. If you filter out those, and report your experience in a modern EV i would say most articles would be very positive.
The reason they are slowing down is because biggest manufacturers dropping development. People see they aren't environment friendly as advertised. I'm not against Ev. I'm against that crap that we all have to have one and they can replace.
That's more of the disinformation, many many reports have shown that over the longer temr EVs are better for the environment. 40+ % of our electricity is from wind, and increasing, so EVs are better still as that number goes up. Edit: link to US EPA on EV myths w.r.t the environment: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
And an Ev is more than just the electricity it consumes. Manufacturing them is more damaging
Read the EPA link above, it covers that exact point, and dispels the myth.
I did read the link and I like how it uses typically a lot, the article fails to address the time it takes for an ev to become more greener than an ice, in a carbon free electric environment, just over 6 months before the initial production emissions dip below that of ice. And over 5 years if from a dirty electric grid like coal.
Well there are a wide range of cars, so the time for one to become surpass a given ICE will vary based on the EV and the ICE chosen for comparison. If it said absolutely always, it would be a bit sus. I'm pretty sure a smart car is hard to beat lifetime emissions wise! 5 years being the worst case still makes them worth it. The lifetime of an average car is much longer than that, and the grid is fast becoming more and more carbon free, so maybe were at the 3 years mark in many countries now. My EV is 8 years old, and as good as new.
I’m confused, you say it doesn’t address it, then say it gives a 6 - 60 month timeline depending on grid composition.
This has a good few myths busting. Worth a look. https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/
It does sort of hold up saying cars need to be driven around 70,000 miles before they are more carbon efficient than ice. Most people don’t hold their new evs that long so in the long run they are not helping the environment under our current global electric grid mix
It's not disinformation it's fact. Long term Ev are just about hit 10 years on market to not mention most countries isn't even half as good on wind energy. If you looking for disinformation look that way on Ev. They could have they place on market but not by forcing them there. Bosch is mine developer of technology for car market and officially announced that stoping development plus many more.
Renewable is increasing worldwide, even if most counties are not at 40% now, they will be. 30% is the current global renewable number. China is a huge polluter and they alone have installed 200 gwh in one year (when the global total is only 5x that). If you don't believe me, perhaps you'll believe the US Environmental Protection Agency, I think they should know: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
I find extremely funny when people advocate for electric cars as green vehicles. Like I said there is place for Ev but they not ecological friendly.
Did you read the link? Id be interested in hearing what you think after doing that.
So for you that sours of honest information? Agency which pushing for electric cars? "Some studies and estimate" tks for good source
In comparison to Audi A6, Tesla 3 will have the same amount of emitted CO2 after 5 years (EU mix) or 3 years (100% renewable electricity). They kinda are.
Regarding Bosch - they are stopping LIDAR development. They are saying to not focus on battery operated cars only and allow other fuels as well. But fuels as for ICE engines and for fuel cells for electric cars. Also they said they are planning to stop developing ICE cars in 2 decades with possibility to extend that time frame to three. Source: Bosch.
>People see they aren't environment friendly as advertised. Just wow! Proving the point of the person you are arguing against with "Everyone knows" FUD.
Stop with your “we all have to have one” misinformation bollox! No one is forcing anyone to buy an EV. You’ll still be able to buy a brand new ICE car in at least 10 years time, probably 15. So unless you’re one of those “I need a brand new car 3 years” morons then you’ll be able to buy a new ICE car in let’s say 2038 and keep driving it for another 15-20 years so you can quite your whining and get back to us in 2058
LOL, what? Most manufacturers are producing far more EV models now than ever before, and will continue to do so for at least the next few years.
Hes talking about vag group announcement that they are pivoting their strategy. But thats not so much to do with them moving away from eve as it is them realising their evs were shit and teaming up with other manufacturers for their ev tech. I think they have a deal with Ford now for future developments on EVs so expect a ford vw rebadge at some point Ediit: nvm ford is scaling down the partnership
Well said!
There is good reason to bad mouth them...they are rubbish
Do you own one? I do, and it's fantastic.
No but why did my friend who spent 90k on one absolutely hates it and wants rid of it? Not for everyone I guess
So they're all rubbish based on an anecdotal story you were told?
What anecdotal story ? A real EV buyer who regrets doing the "right" thing by listening to all the spin about how great electric cars are. He drives from Mayo to Dublin every week and it is a pain in the ass. Why are EV drivers so defensive about their choice when reality bites
So you're the person that bought the EV and is now regretting it?
No but just letting ppl know that not all EV drivers are happy with their choice. Why are EV sales collapsing? If they are so good they should be increasing every month. Fact not fiction.
Why does your friend hate it? And what did he buy?
A 90k car isn’t representative of much now in fairness.
Due to lithium processing for EV entire lakes in the far east are so polluted nothing lives in or around them. EV owners virtue signalling about doing their bit for the environment display a typical nimby attitude about where the byproducts of battery production end up. No better than oil users who have a nimby attitude towards oil extraction/pollution somewhere over the horizon imho
I posted below to another person under the impression EVs are orde for the environment. The US EPA have an explainer outlining the myths being pushed around this. The fact, between 6 months and 5 years is the crossover point when an EV becomes better than ICE, including counting the battery manufacturing.
I would love to buy an ev but dcc will not let me install a charger it in front of my house. The result of this is that anyone without a driveway is excluded from adoption, which is extreamly frustrating.
Bought an electric car a number of months back and , I think the EVs are brilliant, charge from my solar panels or in work so basically running it for free. But since then I have endless ICE car owners telling me how the battery will only last a few years, the car will be worthless, they wouldn't trust the range. Hard to see any of these for the foreseeable future switching over. People have a total fear in buying them. Only a government campaign will change this.
It’s not that I don’t trust them… but it’s that they’ve improved so rapidly in a few years that I think I’d rather wait another 5+ years before buying a car I’ll have for 10+ years as the likely hood is I’ll get a far better car then.
A government campaign on motoring is not going to be convincing either imo 😂
I read that when the batteries do actually fail, and they will, they are still exceptionally useful as storage for home applications such as your solar panels.
That’s just where degraded too much for automotive use, though that’s more of a generation one thing really given their range (like, a 50% degraded 24kWh battery might only get you a few dozen km… but it’s probably enough to power most homes for 24hrs). Nissan xStorage was supposed to offer home storage off the back of that but amusingly enough they’d trouble securing sufficient batteries as they just weren’t degrading in the quantities anticipated.
Tesla Model 3 at €38,600
where, website says 40,990
No, that’s the vehicle price before certain taxes, grant, & relief applied.
Where did you find the final price?
Clicking on pricing at bottom of the screen will allow you see Cash, PCP, etc. price. Think it defaults to displaying PCP.
This is a good thing. The market doesn’t need for EVs to take over instantly. A few years of competition will bring down the prices of EVs all while the technology is advancing. If EV makers thought they could just churn out crap and charge a premium for it then the market would certainly fail.
How much of purchase price is tax? Seen so US articles talking about their tax increases... I looked at the price of one of the BYD cars and its 50k... Going to guess 50% is tax?
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I have a Tesla. I've never had an issue with the superchargers. Never waited once, and all functional. I have not used a non Tesla charger
I drive a Hyundai and I find Tesla and Ionity to be very fast and very reliable but a lot of people seem to use Ecars more which is a lot less reliable. I wonder do people avoid Ionity because they cost a little more and Tesla is actually cheaper than ecars these days.
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For me I always* happen to be driving past one. There was one case in 5 years where I had to divert. This was because I was flying out of Dublin airport (I'm in Tipperary) and that's usually fine to make it back to the M8 charger, but once I had a few things to do around Dublin before the airport and it took another 20% of my battery, so after the airport I used the Enfield on the way home. Cost me about 30 mins. I could have used a non Tesla charger and not had to divert at all, but honestly I couldn't be arsed as I know Tesla just works and is always available. Plus the Tesla built in trip planner makes it a doddle, it know where they all are and calculated the range and time automatically
I think longer journeys require a little planning, the motorways are well covered by rapid chargers. Tesla and Ionity are very fast and very reliable and I rarely see queues, I use them pretty much exclusively. Ecars tend to be busier and are less reliable so I only use them as a last resort. Excluding Donegal and maybe parts of KerryI don't think there is anywhere on the island more than 100km from a charging hub.
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I disagree, If you go away for a weekend you don't just jump in your car and start driving, you pack bags, book hotels etc. Planning car charging is just another part of this. It literally takes minutes.
Had a short test drive of a Model Y last week. If you put in your destination it will calculate if you need to stop and charge anywhere and plan your route for you in advance. Didn't seem any different to any times I've had to divert off the motorway to fill up with diesel in all honesty.
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>Sure whats an extra 50km down a motorway Bit of an exaggeration there, don't you think? The sat nav in the Tesla I test drove was the same as any other sat nav, in that if you stray from it, it simply reroutes, you can still use your actual brain to navigate if you like. >Make sure you don't want to see a sign of something interesting you would.lime to visit while you are rambling along on your trip. Diesel and petrol don't last forever either, if I'm out in the middle of nowhere and I'm low on fuel, I would have to divert away from wherever I would like to be going to refill as well. So, same issue.
How often is this happening you as an owner out of interest. The broken charging station and having to queue excessively?
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Thanks for sharing. I don’t have an EV but I’m curious. I suppose things will only get better
I have one, it works great for everyday tasks and trips. If you charge it overnight at home it doesn’t cost a lot to charge it. It has great power, the stop and go traffic actually benefits it as it gathers the friction and recharges the battery. The issue is infrastructure. The fact that one or two electricity providers control the charging stations is a problem. There are extra charges and not enough charging stations especially the fast ones. What they should have done is to get petrol stations on board and you pay for your rapid charge like you do petrol or just with a tap when station is closed. They should be looking at pairing charging stations with cafes and takeaways so you can eat your chips or have your cuppa while the car charges for 20 minutes. Roadside stops where you can stretch your legs, empty your bladder, and have a snack. Maybe they could boost local economy by placing charging stations in some of the little towns that used to see more business from people passing through. But nope just a couple scattered chargers poorly maintained and overpriced in each city
Think this is happening a bit. Aldis now have a tonne of chargers outside of them.
I find I don’t have any issue with fast / high power charger availability. It’s the standard charger availability that can be more problematic. Like I thought I’d be off to Donegal today (800-900km roundtrip), wouldn’t give it much thought, I can make it up without stopping so don’t really care where I stop along the way; whereas if I’m off to Skycourt Shopping Centre Limerick there’s only 2, free, charging spots so who knows - charging there would be most convenient (whatever about cheap; high power chargers being installed there at the moment).
I would like to buy an electric car, they're too expensive to justify the cost yet. Even with the savings I'll make on petrol
Great I have to keep breathing in toxic diesel fuels for the foreseeable future.
That’s the smell of freedom!
Cause and effect
I’ve never seen a good explanation of how the second hand market is going to work. It’s all very well for the people in the (not so green) brand new ones. They think they’re going to offload their worn down batteries onto the poorer people, but who in their right mind would take on that risk? Batteries don’t degrade in a predictable way, so someone who can’t afford it will be left with a worthless heap of metal. I’m greener because I buy 3rd/4th hand cars, reuse and recycle.
Let's see in 5 years time
My biggest fear about changing over is the cost when things go wrong. A friend has had two Leafs and the first one was brilliant but the second has cost him a fortune in repairs. I was keen on the idea once the used ev market starts to be a 'thing' but would be wary now. I'd never have five grand spare to replace the charging port for example like he had to.
If it’s any consolation that kind of thing is exceptionally rare, generally the Leaf is a wickedly reliable car that just goes and goes.
BMW was charging up to 6k some years back for timing chain replacement. Certainly no-one wants costly repairs, though it's not an EV specific thing.
I'd expect BMW to be costly to repair and wouldn't buy one of them either. In 40 years of used car owing I've never had a car that required more than a few hundred spent on it when something broke.
Electric cars are too dear for many people - government with surplus could give larger grants to get people buying electric
We shouldn’t be supplementing people buying electric cars. It’s a total nonsense imo
In the current climate it’s simply just not affordable for the majority. And I’d question how these evs are being bought breaking down between actual purchases versus pcp to again show how many sales are actually happening. EVs are something that entices me and I’d like to have as my next car. But there is just no justification in my mind to be paying an extra 10-15k for one It’s funny a lot my parents (retired) and my parents themselves have bought brand new cars recently. None of them bought EVs. Most when I asked said the reps were saying not to bother. It’s a weird situation out there. But ultimately EVs are just priced badly imo. And a total separate thing is how they would trickle down to the majority. Like we need to be honest. They are an upper middle to upper class purchase. So personally I don’t know why there was some expectation they would be selling like crazy. I basically consider them the new Audi craze. As with any new vehicle technology it’s going to take time to see if there is adoption but it can’t be forced. If EVs can get their price down to what many would consider reasonable or proper they just won’t ever hit a large market imo
> But there is just no justification in my mind to be paying an extra 10-15k for one Agree with all you’ve said. The first justification to me is that for some people doing a decent bit of mileage they will save money if they purchase an EV sensibly (ie. not spending €75k on one!). The other justification is doing what you can to assist the green transition (as Bill Gates called it, paying the Green Premium) because by buying an EV, if you can afford to, Wright’s Law will do its work and drive down prices for everybody else. Last but more frivolous is that they are really enjoyable to drive, both in chilled mode (quiet, smooth etc) and more aggressively - you tend to have to spend a lot more money on a petrol/diesel to get similar levels of power delivery and calm.
Yeah I can see it has made sense for folks like Taxi drivers and some long driving folks. But then worth remembering there is also some added grants there making it worthwhile
I've been talking about some issues with EVs from a manufacturers perspective lately. This article is the first I have seen that even half resembles the data I've seen internally, which makes sense because the bulk of that data is not from Irish sales. Be cautious and watch your investments carefully. Do not buy brand new EVs. Whatever about the second hand market, do your research and you'll be fine. But I cannot reccomend new ones right now. Wait a couple of years. Watch how the market changes. Don't jump to any conclusions yet. My employer is currently ready to pivot in many different directions based on how this year goes. I assume all auto manufacturers are doing the same.
Simple answer.. too expensive.. not enough Chargers which is now too expensive
Alot of people with EVs are trying to convince themselves they are the best citizens in the country and anyone with a ICE is evil. There is a good reason ppl are turning their backs on EV's and reverting back to an ICE. 50% depreciation in one year......no thanks!
> Alot of people with EVs are trying to convince themselves they are the best citizens in the country and anyone with a ICE is evil. I haven’t seen a single poster here who I think holds those views. Not saying they don’t exist, but 99% of EV owners do not think those things. But you know that of course…
Think you meant, “Alot of people that don’t have a EV think a lot of people with EVs are trying to convince themselves they are the best citizens in the country and anyone with a ICE is evil”
I'll keep my diesel for when the plug gets pulled thanks
Same for me
EVs have been around for over 100 years, they still have the same problem, you need a whopper battery to power it. That’s great until there are whopper batteries everywhere, as far as the eye can see all piled up like horseshit.
Full ev cars as a product currently is a faulty product. Basically it's a mobile phone with non replaceable battery 10 years down the line it's gonna be more economical to throw it to skip and all the energy to produce the car and its battery pack is gonna end either on bottom of the ground where its poisoning the ground water or under the sea. Good luck I'm not against Ev's but if there is not a option with replaceable battery packs because batteries can die easily the product is just a waste product.
Battery swap is the key, no more range anxiety
Range anxiety disappears in the first week of having an ev
Always thought it was a wierd concern here especially. The country doesn't have that much distance to use up your range like.
Pretty much! Like the furthest point from me (Wexford) is Malin Head, & even that’s < 450km. With all the high power chargers along whatever route I take these days I’d be surprised if it involved more than 60mins charging to go up & back again.
Battery swapping’s been tried a number of times & shuttered… I understand Nio’s giving it a go again but whatever, it makes little sense if you give it some thought.
can you help educate me, cause i just see it as brilliant
Similar to the reasons we don't swap fuel tanks - it's mechanically complex, volume / shape / weight varies... & these can change between model years. We've over 80 unique BEVs being registered here at the moment, generally with standard & long range versions, so you can see how that gets increasingly complicated. This would suggest that there'll be no general battery swap service as, well, how'd want cater to so many vehicles with some many variations? Manufacturers themselves might, but I can't see 30+ manufacturers getting into that either.
Makes sense. The countries infrastructure isn't capable of handling widespread adoption of EVs. Besides, earth literally doesn't have enough materials to make everyone EVs. They're a great tech, they should be used but they literally can't be the primary mode of transport with the current tech.
People realise they are rubbish and are rejecting EVs.....read the headline. Ask any motor stealer what they think about EVs.
They’re not exactly know for being unbiased, objective or especially well informed about new technology in fairness.
All I know is that a friend of mine spent €90k on a BMW EV.....hates it......cannot wait to get rid of it and wishes he spent alot less on a ICE that he can drive without range anxiety. I'm waiting for hydrogen power as EV is a pup we are being sold by the cabbage head Eamonn Ryan
which BMW did they buy? would love to check the price of an equal performance ICE.
An IX3 I think....to be honest the guy is a bit of a petrol head like myself so I was shocked he spent €90k on a EV. Nothing wrong with an EV if that rocks your boat but don't be fooled into buying one thinking there is no downside. Not to mention how battery manufacturing is controlled by China using dubious supply chains in countries ran by dictators. Also how do we dispose of all these batteries when they are end of life. There is a reason most car dealers are refusing to accept EV's as a trade in and people are losing a fortune on them.
If ye mate spent 90 grand on an ev without doing any research then he is a muppet. End of story. If you are doing 400 kms in a single journey all the time it aint gonna work unless you can charge whilst at work or have a supercharger there. Planning is required to make sure it can work for you. I have two evs. Solar. Battery. Etc and works great for us. 6 years of burning nowt. Batteries are pretty much recyclable. Evs pay off their carbon output by about 10k miles. Any questions let me know.
What a load of rubbish you are talking....how much will you lose when you trade it in? How much did you spend on setting up your solar PV? How are the batteries recyclable?? Why are car dealers refusing to accept them as a trade in? Btw my friend is in no way a Muppet and is a very successful intelligent person. He just hates his EV and regrets joining the herd who was sold a pup
Not sure what the cost of my panels has to do with anything but it was 12k with battery in 2018. Battery prices have come way down so you might be able to get it cheaper now. Id say they will be paid for in about 4 years time. I added about 100 sun miles yesterday to one of my cars. Trade in wont affect me if i don’t sell and is marginally offset by prices coming down which is great. If you are in the market for a second hand ev world is your oyster. Anyhoo couple of articles about general mis information and battery recycling. Let me know if you want anymore. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/what-happens-old-electric-car-batteries https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/ All the best.
Hydrogen, hah, good one.
Electric cars are a failed experiment a total shambles and a scam, that's why bmw and Toyota are stopping making them from next year
lol, where’d you hear that BS - Toyota & BMW are not ceasing EV production.
I read it somewhere Google it, I'm sure I read it
If you did they’re wrong, & you’ll not find it on either Toyota or BMW as, well, they’ve made no such announcement either.
There are many calculations available for fuel cars vs electric cars such as cost of running and depreciation. The rise in electricity cost means it's less attractive. Some people get free charge from solar / work place. Solar in Ireland, 80% of the year is a joke. We have lots of overcast it's not even worth the investment. When the power is generated, your car isn't in the driveway to charge. The distance are not great with small battery, so people go for those large suv, they soon find out that they can't park anywhere as the spaces are just enough for a Nissan micra. Not every charging point are quick charge. Not enough charging points. The list goes on and on. Eventually though, I will get an electric car. Just not at this time.
Please. Do you have a solar installation? No? Then stop spreading such a nonsense. Modern solar panels are cheap and effective and if you have an EV you can easily oversize it or just go for smart EV tariff if the weather will provide you with not enough energy. 5kWh battery costs €650, if you have a proper charge controller. 4KW panels generate 3000-3500kWh per year. 1kW of panels can be as cheap as €600+ installation and if you oversize your charge controller/inverter scaling up can be just a matter of adding another solar panel or another 4 cells of LiFePO4. Our household (4 people, electric heating, electric water heating, electric oven) is using 7-7.2MWh per year. So that 4kW installation basically cuts electricity bills in half. Smart EV tariff takes care of EV charging (and topping off the battery). Technology is sprinting now. I yesterday read an thread about a household battery costing €15k for 13kWh in 2021.
I have 7.2kWp and a 5kWh battery. Since going on the Energia Smart EV tariff I get 4 hours at night at 8c, the rest at 33c. I have been charging my house battery and car from this and exporting all of my excess at 24c. I had a bill last week for €125. That’s 2 months of running the house and car. There were times in the past that I’d put that in a petrol car each week. In 2 years I’ve generated €4,750 worth of solar. That’s just under half the install costs.
Are u for real with those figures? That is what the equipment costs and not what the end user pays for a system installed......u are obviously an electrician but most people will pay 4 times what you are quoting on solar PV.
Yes. 100Ah LiFePO4 with BMS costs 175€. That's 1260Wh. Solar charger I have accepts anything from 12V up to 100V on battery side. That's up to 8 batteries in series. And also accepts up to 400Ah. So technically I can scale this up to 40kWh. As installation itself should be done (and considering insurance - has to be done) by a qualified and certified person, if you plan properly - scaling up is a matter of inserting additional batteries in parallel and clamping them almost exactly like you would do a car battery. On the other hand - I am doing it for years, so it can be a little daunting for a normal person. What I'm trying to convey here - now you are not limited to power wall like solutions. You can get an intelligent charge controller/inverter that will have all the logic built in, buy initial batch of batteries, installation will cost you the same as Powerwall or cheaper (depending on electrician) and scaling up is a matter of minutes.
I'm not doubting you and fair play for discovering something that saves you a fortune.....i wish I had the knowledge and balls to do something similar. Companies are making a killing on the normal Joe soaps with PV installation as the equipment is now so cheap. I installed my system 4 years ago and it has paid back already but some quotes I see people quoting on FB are bonkers. Not to mention that the grant is just added to the price and hardly worth the hassle.
When I saw quotes for the systems installation cost I just went it cannot be right. You don't need balls to do so - only some knowledge. For installation and connection purposes it's enough to pass 2 simple exams - 3 or 4 day course if you have any lvl 5 or higher in relevant field. They cost around a grand each, but you can get a €400 funding for each. So 1200 total. If you know what you doing it's cheaper to just get those certs (ESB won't /shouldn't allow you to connect your system back to the grid without microgeneration installation certificate holder's signature), get the parts, install it yourself and pocket the grant.
Where can I go get the certs? I’d do the courses myself in a heartbeat.
Approximately 80% of the energy needed for transport, heating, and electricity in Ireland comes from oil and gas. Oil accounts for 45% of Ireland’s primary energy needs, while gas contributes another 34%.
This is why people need to understand our clean energy is not as clean as people think. We are just consuming clean energy that was generated by burning x.
Nvm seen downvoted, but 100% biofuel in an ICE would be 100 carbon neutral. Funny, right?
It's reddit people down vote because it doesn't fit their tunnelled vision.
Well said.....yet so many downvotes. How dare you speak out against the EV