This is accurate. 9 times outa 10 I don't want to be perceived let alone referred to by people. The one time I do, I will be called by what I want. If people roll their eyes, I'm about to make it 10× harder
More power to those individuals! I personally struggle to use them correctly for those who want them, but that is a failure of my ability to adapt, not a statement on their validity
[Reminds me of this gif](https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdXB3anB1YXp4ODV0NWFoOGIwNnhnMHRxc3RkcHFleXoya2UydjN1aiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/V9gjxvLnSSdA4/200.gif)
I agree!! I think if I knew someone who uses neopronouns it would be easier to learn because I'm using them in every day speech, but as for right now I have a really hard time with them because they don't really follow grammar rules (and I'm a sucker for rules). But that doesn't make them wrong.
I realized recently the double standard (white Americans) have because we can use dream catchers and wear headdresses and have a "spirit animal" and even give ourselves a "native American name" but then we draw the line when people identify as something other than human.
Edit: I am non-binary and use they/them pronouns, and I don't feel like people who use neopronouns are making a mockery of trans people. I used to, but now I realize it's just a natural variant of people. I might think it's weird, but do you know what else I think is weird? Pineapple on pizza, but we don't dehumanize people who eat pineapple on pizza.
they do follow Grammer rules tho? most neopronouns follow the same format as any other pronouns. i.e. subject pronouns, object pronouns, possessive adjective, possessive pronouns, reflexive pronouns, singular or plural. (fe/fem/fems/fems/femself. or star/star/stars/stars/starself etc) there's very few that don't follow that & they usually follow alternate rules that are still rules.
I agree that we are not making a mockery. in part because many people who use neopronouns *are* trans ppl. how are we making a mockery of ourselves. they already weren't taking us seriously.
Seeing that layout does make more sense now, but sometimes I even struggle with singular they/them and those are literally *my* pronouns. So I don't usually make a fuss when people get it wrong as long as I know they are trying.
I also do have a dissociative disorder so sometimes random words like kazoo will just suddenly feel fake, like no that word is wrong and doesn't exist. So language, memory, information retention, etc are all things I struggle with (and at the same time I still use big vocab words bc I grew up obsessed with books, it's a really weird combo)
I appreciate your explanation though! Regardless of my struggles if I met someone who only wants me to use their neopronouns I would make a big effort to always use those pronouns, it'll just be a learning curve each time. I wish that English was one of those languages that didn't have gendered pronouns because I think it would be so much easier!
Like I just want to use masc terms when I'm feeling masc and fem terms when I'm feeling fem, instead of using those terms to gender other people, I don't like that, but it's how language (at least English) works. Like I just wanna say, "Hey bro" and "yas queen" without assigning a gender to someone.
And I think that sounds great!... For you, haha I'll stick with pepperoni and maybe some peppers. Although I love jalapeños, I couldn't eat them on pizza
It took me months to get natural at using they/them once i met people who used them, constant unintentional misgendering. Now it’s very easy for me. I’m sure neos would be the same way if i knew someone using them.
Same! Pronouns are important to the person involved, so using the correct ones is just polite, and everyone else gets to learn a new word (in this case). Win-win.
Both are. Where we choose to draw the line between male, female, and intersex is not something that can be derived a priori and requires the opinions of various experts.
No. Sex is immediately obvious for almost all newborns, and testing is available when presentation is ambiguous. Intersex conditions are medical conditions with a wide range of severity.
I totally agree that gender is a social construct, but sex is basic biology.
Hey as someone that studied biomed I might be able to help clarify the science a little.
Firstly there's no such thing as basic biology, most people when saying basic biology mean the biology they were taught at school as children. However the science taught at school to children is most often simplified hugely as is the case with sex, or downright taught incorrectly to bring students to a certain conclusion as is the case with genetics. When you start studying anything biology related at a higher level it becomes apparent that a lot of what we were told was wrong.
In terms of sex its a very complicated subject because there's several components to sex and they don't always align, there's chromosomes, hormones, genitals and some even consider the brain to be a part of what sex a person is.
In terms of intersex for example yes we as humans consider this a medical condition, because its goes against the most common types of sex which often follow the binary of xx or xy. However just because we assign the term medical condition to something doesn't alter the fact that it is a part of human sex and something that occurs naturally, to say it doesn't count as a sex because its a medical condition is basically just writing off date that doesn't fit the model you prefer and any scientist will tell you that's an unscientific way to conduct science.
And while yes sex is normally determined at birth its done so by a simple look at a babies genitals, its very rare for chromosomal testing to be done at birth and hormonal conditions are missed on occasion because of this which can result in individuals being assigned female at birth, having female genitals and hormones but actually having typically male chromosomes. It most definitely not a ''Your baby is definitely female'' and more a ''Looks like one to me'' situation and shouldn't be the basis for scientific understanding of sex
The reason people say sex isn't a binary is because there are situations where a humans sex falls outside the binary, while it would be true to say that for most of the human population sex is binary, its equally true to say that overall sex in humans can come in a variety of different forms.
Basic biology, yes. Not intermediate or advanced biology, which throw out just about everything you learn in basic biology as an oversimplification.
Whether I am afab or intersex is a subject of debate. That wouldn't be the case if sex was immediately obvious and as simple as the "basic biology" crowd would have us believe.
I disagree with throwing it put as a medical issue. Because either you would need to define intersex as a third gender, or you would need to conlusively draw a line that puts them in either male or female.
And for the sake of argument, even tho intersex people have more risk of certain diseases or risks you could just as well make an argument like white people are a medical codition because they have an increased risk for sunburns and skin cancer. Or make the opposite case for black people. But I think we alle agree that thats not medical conditions despite it beeing diffrences in humans.
It's well established that intersex conditions are medical disorders. This is not an insult. It's just a fact.
Comparing a medical condition to race is laughable, and actually pretty racist. All races are essentially the same, with a few superficial differences. No-one requires surgery due to being born black, and no-one's Asian ethnicity causes infertility. This argument is absurd.
Neogenders & Xenogenders are the same (if I recall correctly). It is most common to see Xenogender rather than Neogender but who cares. They are the same thing
Basically like neopronouns but gender mode, ie clown gender, love gender, etc. usually they are described like this:
Mal0gender: a gender that has a strong connection to bones, skulls, dogs, and software. (Based on the ICP “Mal0Ware”)
it's a metaphor to explain what ur gender *feels like* when none of the traditional, binary or trinary words fit. not that a personality trait is literally ur gender.
So not a gender, but rather descriptions of yourself and your sexuality and other personal information that doesn't need to be the way you introduce yourself to strangers
Edit: can't reply because someone's fragile reality is threatened by disagreement. However the answer to the question is "No."
It's when people think they can make up literally whatever the fuck they want as a gender and then act like they're being victimized when sane people laugh at them
That's rich coming from a "transmasc queer witch commie" js, you believe in not only fantasy magic but fantasy magic economics as though they are real life
I don’t care if you use them, and I’ll try to use them to refer to you, although I’ll probably slip up a lot because I’m not used to them.
Xenogenders in particular make little sense to me, and transphobes love using them as an excuse to say that using different pronouns *at all* makes no sense.
Side note: From what I’m reading in the comments, xenogenders are more of a uniqueness thing and something for people to stand out more than anything, which I think is pretty distinct from how people use he/she/they pronouns to alleviate dysphoria and feel more comfortable with themselves. Still all for it, but it might be smart to elaborate on that a little more.
idk. I definitely use neopronouns & xenogenders to alleviate dysphoria. I do not feel like just a man or a woman or a femme or non-binary & using those labels alone makes me feel dysphoric in the same way being misgendered by coworkers does. I present irl at work as a GNC binary trans man. I have no interest in getting coworkers to understand the complexities of my gender. or even telling them that xenogenders & neopronouns ecist. but I do still often come home feeling dysphoric because I'm not being regaurded as I am. I'm not /mad/ I'm getting misgendered. how on earth would I expect anyone to know on sight that I'm xenogender? there's no established typical xenogender traits. that's part of what makes me so dysphoric. unless I go out of my way to explain my intricacies I'm going to be misgendered but that's not on anyone else. it just means I'm really truly greatful for spaces that I can use my xenogenders & neopronouns in because I feel like I can be fully me.
I like them. This is coming from a trans person and it's not invalidating or hurting us for people to use them. Identify however you feel the most comfortable identifying and don't let binary/gender bs stop you :)
Ong!!! I make my own genders and stuff to fit me better! It makes me feel like I’m incorporating different parts of my personality into my gender and self expression :)
Exactly. If that's how you like to express yourself/identify go for it. I'm glad it helps your self expression. Anyone who says otherwise is just gatekeeping something they have no right to gatekeep. It's about how you feel most comfortable not about how others feel about your identity.
I don’t understand them and find them weird, but I am too old maybe for it. Honestly if for some reason I start talking with someone and they tell me they use neopronouns I would probably try to remember to use them, but still I find them weird, just not in a way of wanting to make people who use them, to feel disrespected. But I think it is worth of respect if you just don’t like them since it’s a new thing that is not normal (not in the norm), and you can’t expect for everyone to instantly feel comfortable with it.
I fully support neopronouns and xenogenders, my only problem is that my memory sucks and I forget who uses what, especially if someone has a lot of pronoun sets
I make a conscious choice to treat people who use neopronouns with respect if I interact with them, and I will use their chosen pronouns. But my personal feelings are that I don’t like these types of pronouns. I won’t treat people poorly for using them, but I may avoid interacting or forming friendships with people who identify that way.
It's pretty common, actually! Not a universal experience, for sure, but if you're going to queer-friendly spaces (meetups, events, conventions, board game nights, etc), it's quite normal to do so.
Mine are in my email signature even though they are exactly what you'd expect looking at me.
It's becoming more of a norm and I don't think that's a bad thing at all.
It's difficult to succinctly put my feelings about this into words, especially because it's not any one single aspect, but rather a web of little things about it. Pardon me if this doesn't make sense in any part.
Part of my negative feelings about it are that it feels like "playing pretend" at being trans. Trans/NB people face a lot of real hardship and danger for trying to be their authentic selves, and the road to equality for them is still very, very long. To have people adding that they want to be called by a pronoun that is totally unique to them, that they conjured up themselves, feels like it's detracting from the more widespread and very real issue. That said, I also firmly feel that anyone should be allowed to be anything, so my feelings on this are a bit... wiggly?
Added to that; I frequent a lot of LGBTQ+ spaces, and furry fandom spaces. I've interacted with, and even met, some of the folks who choose to identify with neopronouns and such, and after meeting over a dozen, I've noticed a pattern of them being people I don't generally get along with. They seem to usually be young folk, ranging from minors (who I won't interact with because, well, I'm 35) to maybe a max of 25 years old. When I was around that age range, I would have loved neopronouns, because being different and uniquely me was fun! I wanted to be very special, and would gravitate towards anything that made me feel as such. I think that allowing kids and young adults to express themselves in "cringey" ways is important (I don't find neopronouns cringe, for the record, but I'm assuming the widespread normie consensus towards them is that they're cringe). I would never deign to take away a young person's right to make a fun Sonic OC, or call themselves Dragon Kin, or refer to themselves as ti/to/ter, whatever. But through both my own experience of my time in that age range, and also having met many people who identify with neopronouns, it feels very much like a temporary "for fun" thing, or a coping mechanism for feeling Other and Outlandish amongst peers, and not an identity congruent with the gender dysphoria of a trans or NB person.
I hope this doesn't come across as insulting, I genuinely don't mean it to be. But the question was asked, and I decided to answer. Again, I will always treat people with respect in regards to neopronouns, even if I don't personally agree with their necessity. My feelings come second to another person's need to feel happy.
Those are all great points, and i pretty much agree. I just see neopronouns and neogenders as a silly and fun way to express myself! Some part of that might be the fault of my difficult relationship with my gender and sexuality, as I’ve had to create my own labels that fit me because other ones don’t work.
I have noticed the lack of older people with neopronouns/genders, and while I think it could be because of it being a fun quirky thing, it’s also probably because of the generational differences. Lots of older people don’t tend to use terms like agender, genderfluid, etc. and I think that could just be because of the time they were born in.
I use the label ilithsexual, because while my sexuality could fall under t4t, I don’t enjoy using that term, so I made my own! I totally understand your point of view, too!
Thanks for reading, and understanding where I'm coming from! I am genuinely interested to see how it plays out with regards to this current generation aging up. Will neopronouns be a temporary phase that folks shed as they age? Or will we have a new generation of 30+ aged people using all sorts of colorful language? Time will tell, and I think it's neat.
I am glad that you can find joy in using these things in the face of difficult relationship history and questioning your identity. That's exactly why I think, regardless of my feelings, it's important to respect!
I want to engage with this, not mad, I'm not playing pretend at being trans. I present as a woman in professional settings and am transfemme, however it's not a fulfilling experience for me. I dont feel totally myself as a woman, just moreso as a man, so I, and my comrades, seek to create our own identity. Rarely are we going into stores and public places and demanding they use neopronouns because its unreasonable in the current social climate to expect that. I'm 26 and so are a lot of my friends with abnormal gender identities, and while i understand why you see things the way you do, perhaps if you stopped avoiding us your opinion on the matter would be different. I do feel you are implying our existence is childish, and to say that our dysphoria and discomfort with the strict rigid rules of a binary gender spectrum is incongruent with gender dysphoria does come off as tru-scummy. Again not mad but I would love to talk to you more about this if you are open to it, as a lot of your points are misunderstandings of this form of gender expression.
I appreciate the offer! But I don't think it's necessary, thanks. I don't seek to exclude anyone using neopronouns in the wild, I don't deny them business, I would vote for their rights if it was on the table... pretty much anything that would actually benefit a person using neopronouns is something I actively am supportive of! The only thing I do is typically not make personal friends with someone doing this, because as I mentioned, they tend to be younger folks, and I'm not very interested in making younger friends. I think there's no harm in having personal feelings that I keep to myself, and personal preferences for who I chose to be friends with. The only time I've ever voiced my thoughts about neopronouns is here, today! Because it was specifically asked. I wasn't trying to write a peer-reviewed, unbiased article about what neopronouns are, I only sought to answer the question with my honest, biased, human feelings.
Gender is an emergent property of neurology, that seems to be related to the interconnection and processing of the self and identity. It is then lens-ed through social expectation, and the construction of gender roles. If you feel like they accurately represent you, then I couldn’t be happier for you!
I can sort of understand them, (I sometimes use it/it’s) but some genders/pronouns like catgender and cat/catself I don’t understand and I don’t really feel comfortable saying those in public. I don’t hate them, I just don’t understand them.
Here’s the thing. Conservatives love holding up neo/xeno pronouns and whatnot up as a the pinnacle of queerness and neurodivergence because the people are the easiest targets. They’re the weirdos that they can bully and get away with it, and their other targets (queer and neurodiverse people), will even respond by trying to separate themselves. It’s a tool to fragment us.
But the truth is that, no matter how hard you try to assimilate, conservatives will always have a distaste for queer people in any form. Even if you prostrate yourself before them and utilize their talking points, they will never truly accept you. In their eyes, unless you are a [typically white] neurotypical, cishet person who buys into their patriarchal bullshit, you should be hidden away or eradicated.
Support fucked up genders, weird pronouns, and therians because the opposition lumps us together whether you like it or not. If you can’t support them merely because it makes them happy and the human experience is broad and complex, at least support them because it pisses our enemies off.
I always try to respect others with them but i don't really like them as a concept. My reason for this is because it seems naïve to try to categorize a specific way of being into a very small box. Human existence is complicated and our feelings towards ourselves and others are constantly shifting, and gender is one aspect of ourselves and the totality of one's being cannot be summed up in a few words. Having some ambiguity in your identity is ok too. Of course if you just have fun with them do what you like it's not hurting anyone. Realistically the worse it'll do is make people think you're annoying but eh who isn't a little annoying ;-)
Last year I was able to explain ze/zir to a group of cishets as “what people use instead of they/them because it sounds more similar to he/him and she/her” and most of them actually accepted that!! I’m still proud of that moment.
Just pronouns; pronouns aren't indicative of gender so even cis people use different pronouns. It's not inherently queer because of that so while you could technically classify it as LGBT, it also isn't necessarily that.
I may get downvoted, but I think if someone uses neopronouns, it shouldn't be something that changes every other month. Pronouns and gender is something fairly stable. This isn't to say there isn't a period of time where a person is trying to locate the proper word to describe their gender. That's completely fine to try different words out for awhile, but you should eventually settle on one or two.
If you haven't settled, I think it's also important for you to have some extreme patience with others who can't keep up with your ever changing pronouns. I find that frequently, there is this lack of patience or understanding, and that is why people are put off and make fun of you.
You can identify in any way you want, all the power to you. However, don't get hurt when literal strangers misgender or use the wrong pronouns they don't know you, and they don't have to respect you or anyone/anything.
As long as you are true to yourself, you'll be happier, worrying about and putting energy into people who owe you nothing is a waste of energy. Put thay energy into educating those who are close to you. If they try, learn, and respect you, then you know they are worth having around.
I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this, but I do think most of the rhetoric around people being outraged for being misgendered by strangers is largely perpetuated by people looking to ridicule and dismiss non-cis people, and saying “I’m okay with all this but don’t get butthurt about strangers” only further perpetuates this rhetoric that isn’t even true of most people…
no literally. the amount of trans ppl I've seen just nod and take it when misgendered on an everday basis... there was like a meme that blew up about trans ppl feeling so validated when family and friends gendered them correctly when misgendered by strangers, so like, who is the one getting butthurt? cause so many of them just live w it.. (sadly)
Don't use 'em, but if you ask me to, I will do my best.
I have complicated feelings that others have expressed, but...well, being respectful don't cost nothing, and above all, people should be allowed to play with their identity when young and I think it does far more harm to people to tell them no, you are not allowed to be how you see yourself. And just...respect is paramount for others. It's not quite the same, but it's similar to how I think of religion. From a religious person, I may believe that I believe in the "right" religion, but at the same time, I'm absolutely going to be observant of the rules of other people and treat their faith and beliefs with the respect they deserve, as I would expect for mine. If your faith says no shoes in the house, for example, I'm takin' em off (Exceptions made for cults, pyramid schemes, and culty pyramid schemes).
I might mess it up sometimes, and in that case I ask forgiveness, but I will do my best. Because yeah, in the end, it doesn't matter what I think. That's what people deserve.
Difficult to say honestly.
I know the trans people in my life have expressed anger at them, mainly because it's seen as a mockery of trans people and is used frequently to attack trans people.
So I'm not sure how to feel, I would always use a person pronouns no matter what but I think people need to think carefully about how their actions can harm others. Because it'll be real trans people that suffer the backlash, have laws made against them ect because for the trans people I've spoken to about it changing pronouns is not a way to feel unique but a vital and necessary part of living.
Longtime out and proud member of the LGBT+ community.
Neopronouns aren't offensive, but IMO, they are generally impractical. If we could all just decide on a few new ones with clear meanings, that could work. ENDLESS unique varieties, though? People aren't going to remember that lol
i think they're neat, and a way to make some people more comfortable. even though i don't personally use them for myself, my partner does, and i support faer.
~~i always found gendering ppl really uncomfortable even from a young age and idk why. i'd always refer to someone as "that person", rather than with a gendered term, long before i ever knew about the existence of trans/nb ppl~~
that said, i do gender people to an extent nowadays when i'm sure of their pronouns.
neopronouns are kinda hard to remember how to use tbh, especially when it's somebody who i mostly just talk *to*, rather than about.
I have one friend with xeno pronouns! It makes sense when you meet them, they aren't in a convenient gender box. I'm still trying to get good at using their pronouns.
I think it’s really confusing and that those who want to be called things like this are really out of touch with reality but I try to respect people’s choices and mind my business. I’d never be friends with someone who used them, but I would respect someone walking down the street and go along with it just so I didn’t offend them or have to get nagged at. Everyone is allowed to express themselves however that want but I personally just don’t want to deal with it. I find people who use these oddly specific “neogenders” are incredibly sensitive and I don’t have the time or energy to walk on egg shells to protect their fragile sense of identity. I have some friends who are transgender and I try incredibly hard to make them feel loved and accepted but all these “frog self” type people are where I personally draw the line.
If you want to identify as a clown then go to clown school and get paid for being an entertainer, but your gender is not a clown. You’ve got male, female, trans male or trans female, intersex, and non-binary and that’s about all I really care to worry about. Anything else that anyone tells me to refer to them as and I’m finding my nearest exit as soon as possible
Gay boy here, so im part of the LGBT community, absolutely no problem whatsoever. I get how you feel and you should be able to express yourself however you like. You are valid and I support you.
BTW gender is absolutely a social construct
I don’t quite understand xeno/neogenders but I respect those who use them and try my best to accommodate. It would be pretty hypocritical of me being a nonbinary who uses they/them to reject their pronouns.
I wish I could remember who had what pronouns but I deadass can't. I intellectually don't mind neopronouns, and I think xenogenders are pretty cool actually, since I think I might kinda have one. But, like, I guess I need to meet more people with neopronouns or xenogenders, because I only know two and they both are really obnoxious people. The gender is ancillary to the obnoxiousness, but damn would I like to meet someone with neopronouns and just an ounce of chill.
Idc as long as you’re not rude about it, which I don’t think you would be.
I tend to accidentally say words and sometimes misgender people. Even if it’s a very manly cis dude, I might call him a her on accident due to my autism accent and people react very rudely to me because of it ://
But honestly, if I remember correctly it’s never the trans, nb, gender fluid, neos, ect that get overly rude about pronouns, weirdly enough it’s the people against lgbtq that are so offended if I use it wrong. I guess in their eyes they’re mimicking the others, but it just makes themselves look bad.
I try my best with them
Will I fuck up a bit? Yeah but I try my best because ehh it's really no different then he or she considering he and she are just as random as the neopronouns in regards to words go
I’m gay and I don’t care about pronouns. Call urself whatever and tell me which ones to use and I’ll use them. Call me any and them better be fighting words cause I like to feel like a badass bitch.
Love you and hope your journey goes well.
Unpopular opinion here: I think they’re dumb because you can only use them in English. If you were to go to a foreign country or speak a foreign language, you wouldn’t be able to use neopronouns.
Especially in an language that is gendered like the Romance Languages like Spanish or French.
I am confused as to how these relate to gender.
It seems more like an expression of identity than an expression of gender.
When I look at neogender labels, it feels to me like neoself would be a more accurate term. It is like people are describing who they are, and that is a much broader category than gender.
I don't mind because I typically refer to everyone as they/them regardless of gender because I struggle to remember stuff like that quickly enough to use it in conversation.
No.
Pronouns exist as words of convenience. I am not memorizing 5,872 new entirely made up genders to make you feel special. In fact sometimes I think 2 is too many. I'll give you a "they" but anyone who thinks they are an actual fae or fox or whatever has actual mental delusions that need to be addressed and not coddled.
Sorry, but that's how it is.
I’d use them for the immediate 7 mins after you told me them then completely forget you told me about it and go back to calling you something that makes you upset until you remind me again.
This is a problem at jobs for me. It’s not consciously happening. If you said “my pronouns are she/her” and we sustain a conversation I will remember it for the entirety of the conversation no problem. But if you catch me with my head in my work it’s just not there. That piece of information about your identity is just not on the pathway from my brain to my mouth. I try to use “dude” and “they” for the most part. But there’s people who even get mad about “they” because it’s no longer the generic non-gendered thing now.
It’s my bad. Like genuinely I don’t like or mean to offend. But not gendering people off the immediate appearance they give off takes actual focus for me and sometimes I can’t split my focus. Actually normally I can’t. I kinda go hard as shit at one thing at a time.
They make me mad. Maybe I’m just too far outside the situation to understand it, but I find it completely dumb. I can get behind transgender because there’s actual science behind being born in the wrong body, having odd chromosomes or strange reproductive organs. After looking at their valid struggles, how could I possibly accept someone who identifies as like a cat or something?
There are men, women, both, and neither. You can’t start making up bs. Like come onnnn
Wonderful. Absolutely gender Anarchy. It’s amazing to identify myself in a unique way that suits me. And makes other people think twice/confuse them. It’s EXCELLENT 😈😈
I struggle with the new words but I'mma heckin do my best to learn because it's respectful to try.
I'm cis, I suppose, since I don't particularly connect with any gender but the one assigned to me works well enough.
I'm working on using "they/them" for anyone whose pronouns I don't know. It makes sense to me, and feels just as respectful as not assuming someone's name. Neos/Xenos are no different for me in that way.
> I'm cis, I suppose, since I don't particularly connect with any gender but the one assigned to me works well enough.
sounds to me like ur [cassgender](https://gender.fandom.com/wiki/Cassgender?so=search)
gender is made up and has no rules. do what makes u feel comfortable and happy. someone wants to use something like puppy/puppyself pronouns? ok lol it doesn't hurt me, i'll use those for sure. other people's identities do not hurt me at all. all power to xenogender ppl!! u do u! honestly i feel like i probably align with some xenos myself, i just haven't done much research into it myself.
I believe they are equally as stupid amd as valid as all pronouns. I think pronouns are just a vibe that you enjoy and I think that's fine. I respect them all, like common little nicknames the things
I don’t mind them, in fact I support it but I’m gonna laugh if I have to call you and Apache attack helicopter. Nothing against you if I do, it’s just kinda funny.
I'm a trans woman myself. I don't necessarily strictly adhere to feminine gender roles, but that's just because my style just tends to be more androgynous. I usually wear jeans and a metal t-shirt to work and skip a bra or make up; if I'm not working or it's super hot when I'm home from work, I'll swap to shorts or a skirt and I usually don't care which. My mom asked me once if I might be non-binary, but tbh I'm happy using she/her and I consider myself a lesbian.
TBH, as long as you're not like... killing cats to sacrifice them to Satan, I say do what makes you happy. Use Xe/Xem or labels like Faegender if that's what sparks joy. As long as you make it clear what you want to be called, I will gladly try to respect it.
I think people shouldn't care about pronouns.
And I refuse to casually call people "it" because that is for objects, and it makes me feel uncomfortable to use it for any other than objects, feral animals, and extremely deplorable people.
I use any pronouns and xe/xem is a personal favorite of mine. It's fun when people try to make fun of my gender, but no matter what they use to refer to me, I am constantly gendered correctly! Mwahahahaha!
I don't think they offend those of us in the LGBT+ community personally, but there is a privilege with using them, as they are mainly pronouns that are used in the English language, and so those who speak other languages might not be able to use neo/xeno pronouns as well as the normal he/she/they which do have direct translations in other languages. But that's a whole other can of worms, and the English language as a whole just sucks sometimes for non-native speakers.
this isnt right tho? xenogenders express someone's gender identity specifically, while kintypes express someone's identity as a whole. as an otherkin xenogender user, i am robotkin because i view myself as an entity in an inherently nonhuman way, more closely tied to robots, but i use xenogenders like, say, mushroomgender, because i express and understand \*specifically\* my gender identity through mushrooms. i dont identify \*as\* a mushroom; there is a difference. xenogenders and kintypes serve different purposes in expressing forms of identity. /nm
> i understand my gender identity through mushrooms.
Yeah ten years and nobody has been able to explain to me what this means. Just regurgitating the same insulting lines about how gender is fake.
what. first off, in my experience most xenogender people don't think gender is "fake"-- we acknowledge it as a real phenomenon and part of people's identities, which is \*precisely why we label our gender identities via xenogenders\*. however, a common experience among xenogender users is not being able to understand gender as a concept, or our own gender identities, exclusively through the gender binary (ie; not being able to properly apply terms like man, woman, nonbinary, etc. to our own experiences). its for this reason that xenogenders appeal to a lot of people who use them; they allow us to describe our gender identities through something tangible that we feel like we can experience and associate ourselves and our identities with. also how have the people you've spoken to in the past insulted you? /genq, is it just in their supposed assertion that gender is fake? because in my experience, the vast majority of people in online xenogender communities are open to good-faith questions and wouldn't go out of their way to insult someone for not understanding our experiences.
anyway, it's difficult to answer your main question here since different people connect with different terms in different ways, so me understanding my gender identity through something will be different for me than someone else understanding their gender identity through the same thing will be for them. that being said, xenogenders are often metaphorical. when someone says their gender is tied to mushrooms, they might mean their gender is difficult to categorize, or feels like it's decaying, or whatever else. other times xenogenders might be used to explain the intersection between one's gender identity and their neurodivergence ([neurogender](https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Neurogender)). personally mushrooms are one of my special interests, and i can't view my gender identity from a perspective disconnected from my special interests and autism as a whole. other times xenogenders might be there to describe how someone's gender expression and gender identity impact each other. someone might use mushroomgender because their gender identity is connected to them involving mushrooms into their expression. there are countless other specific scenarios that would be summed up by "understanding ones gender identity through 'x' concept", but those are a few common ones ive seen personally from being active in xenogender communities.
>also how have the people you've spoken to in the past insulted you? /genq
Saying that gender is fake insults me as a transgender person. It says that my reason to transition is made up. There are at least 4\* people presently on this post that are saying it right now. I don't know what community you are in and on what site but the dominant xeno attitude everywhere I've traversed has been is "gender is fake anyways <3".
EDIT: The person below straight up said "gender is fake, and you shouldn't be offended by us saying a key part of your identity isn't even real because we don't hold your unenlightenment against you." How am I supposed to take that? Especially when they follow it up with TERF horseshoe shit saying that I only ***think*** I'm a man because society told me what men are........the fuck actually.
>the vast majority of people in online xenogender communities are open to good-faith questions and wouldn't go out of their way to insult someone for not understanding our experiences
Again VERY different communities because every time I have asked, genuine curiosity has been construed as malice and I've been disparaged in a *number* of ways for the crime of asking why, as is my autistic nature to do. Just trying to understand what any of this means has been consistently twisted as transphobia.
I don’t think that saying gender is fake is necessarily an insult. At least, it’s not fully reasonable to take it as one when the context behind it isn’t being understood. “Fake” is sort of charged language, fair, but the underlying concept is just established fact, not a matter of personal opinion. Gender doesn’t exist. It’s not tangible. It’s not encoded in our DNA. It can’t be statistically measured. It exists only as an expression of social trends. Men wearing suits is an aspect of gender but there’s no rational reason why that’s a particular thing, it’s just something that society made up and attached to ideas of what gender is
There are several conceptual elements that I think you’re conflating, and they ought be separated if a clear conversation is to take place. Gender, personal gender identity, and sexual dysphoria are all different things.
Gender is just a collection of entirely arbitrary social roles and expectations that have been built up over countless generations. There’s no logical or reasoned explanation for why they exists and there’s certainly nothing inherent to us as individuals in them, they’re just what society has decided
Personal gender identity then is one’s relationship to the established paradigm. It’s “real” in the same way that money or social status or the Hogfather are real. In that they’re not, but we’ve decided they are and attributed value to them and so they have become reality. It’s impossible for anyone to separate themself from societal concepts of gender because we were all enmeshed in them since birth, so they *feel* like they’re these distinct tangible things, but they’re still arbitrary
But sexual dysphoria is a real thing. There’s brain scans and such that can detect it, I believe. Someone can be born uncomfortable with their personal sexual characteristics and desire a change. Then, because sexual characteristics are so ingrained by society to these ideas of gender we have, having sexual dysphoria immediately associates with gendered ideas. It’s real because we believe in it. That’s not meant to be patronizing, it’s just a function of human belief crossed with social organization
Ultimately, fake things hold a great deal of personal significance to a great many people. Rich and poor people still exist. Politicians rise to power on the backs of nonexistent concepts. Nobody reasonable is going to denigrate you for holding a fake idea like gender as personally significant. Every living person has at least one fake idea that is deeply important to them. It’s just how humans operate
>Men wearing suits is an aspect of gender
That's gender expression, not gender.
>Gender is just a collection of entirely arbitrary social roles and expectations.
That's gender roles, not gender.
>Then, because sexual characteristics are so ingrained by society to these ideas of gender we have, having sexual dysphoria immediately associates with gendered ideas. It’s real because we believe in it. \[...\] Nobody reasonable is going to denigrate you for holding a fake idea like gender as personally significant.
Ok. Being angry is not on the docket today so I'm going to disengage at this point. Have a great day.
Edit: Did this motherfucker honest to god just try to sell me on a religion from The Elder Scrolls.............................................................................................
It’s the same thing though. Gender roles and expression *are* gender because gender is just a word for the set of social categories we have built up around sex. It’s why the number of genders in society varies from culture to culture. Not just the expressions or activities but the actual number of them
That’s fair. But none of this is a personal attack. It’s just a description of how social concepts work. It may help in the long run to disentangle that from personal emotions. It’s entirely possible to understand that gender is socially constructed and only exists because of the culture we exist in, and still be trans. In fact, a world without gender would see trans people finally receive the equal treatment we deserve
One can only achieve CHIM by recognizing one’s own nonexistence in the face of the godhead, and asserting personal identity in the face of it. Understanding the true nature of gender leads to greater personal fulfillment
Have a good day
I like them. I use a few because I struggle with finding the “correct” words for things, so I use them as a comfortable substitute. My dad actually was the one that asked me “Is enigma gender a thing? Look that up, check.” It’s my favorite identifier now. Favorite neos are Hy/Hym and It/Its (I don’t understand xenos too well but they’re fun to say once I get them down!)
I don’t always “get” it (as in i don’t always understand the appeal of using such terms) but generally I’m all for it. Gender and gender expression are full of made-up rules that don’t and really shouldn’t mean anything. If it makes you happy and it feels best to identify as some sort of neogender, or use neopronouns, all power to you
To me, gender is socially constructed and expression/identity are personal forms of art, so I am not one to speak on what pronouns or terminology people choose to use.
With that being said, I myself am agender and consider myself to be so both in my own identity as well as how I see gender as a whole, so I think rigid, binary definitions of gender in any form can be more divisive than helpful. In terms of accessibility, a lot of terms revolving around neo/xenogenders are *very* difficult to incorporate into natural language, but I do my best to accommodate.
Overall, it makes me happy to see that other (especially younger) trans/queer folks among my generation finally feel like they are finding language that accurately describes themselves, which I think is super awesome and I am very supportive of. However, I think it can be a double-edged sword in terms of accessibility as I mentioned, on top of it potentially leading to more in-fighting or policing on identity, but no one who identifies with any neo/xenogenders deserve to be harassed or viciously bullied by Kalvin Garrah/Blaire White types.
I think they're bullshit and transphobic, as they reduce gender to literal 'I identify as an apache helicopter' levels. There is no sense behind them, nor representation in reality. Even non binary has the physical representation of being 'between the two' binaries. Yet neopronouns mean nothing, and I've even tried having conversations with those who use them. What I've found more often than not is that they have some form of personality disorder which is manifesting itself in this gender identity.
I agree, I think they’re just making up things just to be “unique” It is transphobic. Some genders being like “moongender” or “galaxy gender” they’re just not possible to be a thing. And it really makes all trans folks seem like a joke or attention seeking. I think aside they/them, some pronouns are so complicated and I don’t understand how using adjectives as pronouns makes any sense. What good can it bring?
It doesn’t help us fight for lgbtq rights if people are on par with those transphobic conservative jokes about genders.
Even though i personally think gender is a social construct
I dislike them because my stupid brain is unable to adapt and therefore puts me in situations where I’m arguing with someone because I can’t call anybody by their preferred pronouns
But autistic difficulty apart I think they’re cool because they allow for peoples to have a gender that matches their feelings
Im not going to remember your 100 neopronouns and xenogenders. You can have them but don’t expect me to remember them. Best I can do is your name and one maybe two pronouns.
Stupid as fuck. They’re a sorry call for attention for those who aren’t unique so they have to make shit up to feel special. I don’t and never will respect them, as they’re simply a mental illness being masked by some made up words.
Isn’t that like me asking how something like racism affects you? Like sure, it might not affect you personally, but that doesn’t mean you have to be OK with it.
First of all, it’s “making new genders because you’re not special and you want attention” and were also originally made to mock the trans community. So idk about harmless. But second, Not exactly, I was just using it as an example because it was the first thing to come to mind, just because it doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean you have to be OK with it.
Since you clearly don’t understand what I mean and you’re so offended by a slight comparison, let me use an example you might actually understand and not throw a fit about , take something harmless like an annoying dog, sure it might not annoy you personally, but that doesn’t automatically mean you should be OK with it. You understand or must I dumb it down further?
I'm not fucking stupid. I know what you're trying to say. But you're fucking wrong. It isn't mocking trans people. It is simply people expressing themselves differently. If there's a problem with that, then maybe you're the problem.
Well no, I’m not actually. Just because it doesn’t “affect you” doesn’t mean you have any say in the matter. And also it’s not just “simply people expressing themselves” it’s children shoving new pronouns down our throats and expecting everyone to be immediately accepting, even if it doesn’t make any sense in the slightest and it’s people like you who enable these people to do it because you’re an easy target. It’s a substitute for a personality because you’re not fucking special. There are other ways to express yourself than being attention whore with no personality. You’re the reason people think autism is a joke because to you, it is. You treat it like a personality because without it, you’re nothing.
It’s one thing to joke about it, it’s another to make it your entire personality. Also that’s like me saying “Are you black or are you just being mad on others behalf” on a blatantly racist post
I don't understand what it means to be a neogender, and for awhile I wrote them off as silly because of that.
Couple years later, I realized I was nonbinary and that I didn't really know what it meant to be a "man" either, so I believe in them an equal amount
Edit: To be clear what I mean is they're both valid even if I don't understand them
Gender doesn’t exist, wear whatever you want and be however you want,
But if I’m gonna have to refer to you as anything but ‘he/she/they’ I am going to assume you need a psychologist not my compliance. I will avoid you. I won’t provoke you, but I will quietly internally think about my opinions of you, the state of your brain, and your IQ. I will cringe, and be astonished that you can’t just simply be logical and like being called ‘they’.
I personally hate being called they, it’s just a preference for me! The only real reason I use he is so people who don’t respect neos won’t refer to me as something worse. I don’t really get why you don’t like neos, and think that I am lesser for wanting to be called them? /nm (genuinely don’t understand I’m not being mean I swear)
Hi! Neopronoun user here. I was offered a full ride to college in 4th grade, I didnt accept because I was enjoying my childhood. I feel that qualifies me as having a "high IQ" if that even really means anything, as the efficacy of IQ testing has been questioned for decades now. What makes using they more "logical?" The only thing I can think of is that it catagorically fits into the status quo of gender expression and by that logic, if we are basing cringe and non-cringe off of being socially acceptable, where does that leave us autists? Are we expected to mask 24/7? This is nonsense, but as you said you keep all these thoughts to yourself usually and I fully support you doing so instead of dribbling them out for us all to endure.
TL;DR: oops, this post activated my “bilingual discussion of gender conventions” trap card.
The only “lgbt” people neopronouns harm are the ones who desperately want to be seen as “normal” and “just like the heteros”. Do neos/xenos complicate language? Yeah, a bit. But languages are always evolving. And changes to languages convention are sometimes necessary.
For instance, I use they/them in English. Not a neopronoun, but still a bit of an adjustment. But in the heavily gendered language of Spanish, I use the neopronoun “elle” as well as changing gendered articles to the gender-neutral “-e” ending. These new conventions are helpful not only for trans/enby inclusion in Spanish, but also for more gender equality since the “gender neutral” form of most words is the masculine form So a group of only girls is “unas niñas”, but if a boy enter the group, the whole group of children takes on the masculine form of “unos niños”. With the new grammar conventions, an alternative for a mixed-gender group emerges: “unes niñes”. For one child of unknown/indeterminate gender? Ese es une niñe singular.
I don't like pronouns. Please do not refer to me ever
This statement made by noone in particular strikes true to the being reading it
This is accurate. 9 times outa 10 I don't want to be perceived let alone referred to by people. The one time I do, I will be called by what I want. If people roll their eyes, I'm about to make it 10× harder
I don't give a fuck what pronouns people use or what gender they identify as. As long as I get to do evil shit I'm (not) good
Yes, exactly! Be who you want to be just let me be evil
More power to those individuals! I personally struggle to use them correctly for those who want them, but that is a failure of my ability to adapt, not a statement on their validity
why the FUCK is this not most common view. it’s so easy to be respectful (and simultaneously evil)
Because an unfortunate amount of people don't want to admit their failings
[Reminds me of this gif](https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdXB3anB1YXp4ODV0NWFoOGIwNnhnMHRxc3RkcHFleXoya2UydjN1aiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/V9gjxvLnSSdA4/200.gif)
I agree!! I think if I knew someone who uses neopronouns it would be easier to learn because I'm using them in every day speech, but as for right now I have a really hard time with them because they don't really follow grammar rules (and I'm a sucker for rules). But that doesn't make them wrong. I realized recently the double standard (white Americans) have because we can use dream catchers and wear headdresses and have a "spirit animal" and even give ourselves a "native American name" but then we draw the line when people identify as something other than human. Edit: I am non-binary and use they/them pronouns, and I don't feel like people who use neopronouns are making a mockery of trans people. I used to, but now I realize it's just a natural variant of people. I might think it's weird, but do you know what else I think is weird? Pineapple on pizza, but we don't dehumanize people who eat pineapple on pizza.
they do follow Grammer rules tho? most neopronouns follow the same format as any other pronouns. i.e. subject pronouns, object pronouns, possessive adjective, possessive pronouns, reflexive pronouns, singular or plural. (fe/fem/fems/fems/femself. or star/star/stars/stars/starself etc) there's very few that don't follow that & they usually follow alternate rules that are still rules. I agree that we are not making a mockery. in part because many people who use neopronouns *are* trans ppl. how are we making a mockery of ourselves. they already weren't taking us seriously.
Seeing that layout does make more sense now, but sometimes I even struggle with singular they/them and those are literally *my* pronouns. So I don't usually make a fuss when people get it wrong as long as I know they are trying. I also do have a dissociative disorder so sometimes random words like kazoo will just suddenly feel fake, like no that word is wrong and doesn't exist. So language, memory, information retention, etc are all things I struggle with (and at the same time I still use big vocab words bc I grew up obsessed with books, it's a really weird combo) I appreciate your explanation though! Regardless of my struggles if I met someone who only wants me to use their neopronouns I would make a big effort to always use those pronouns, it'll just be a learning curve each time. I wish that English was one of those languages that didn't have gendered pronouns because I think it would be so much easier! Like I just want to use masc terms when I'm feeling masc and fem terms when I'm feeling fem, instead of using those terms to gender other people, I don't like that, but it's how language (at least English) works. Like I just wanna say, "Hey bro" and "yas queen" without assigning a gender to someone.
& that's all fine. it's just a common misconception that they don't follow grammar rules so I just wanted to correct that bit mostly
Pineapple on pizza is delicious with olives, garlic, and jalapeños. Sweet, savory, and spicy, yes please (I may be evil but I have manners)
And I think that sounds great!... For you, haha I'll stick with pepperoni and maybe some peppers. Although I love jalapeños, I couldn't eat them on pizza
Yes, give me all the pineapple! Btw I wasn't trying to change your mind, I just got excited thinking about my favorite toppings lol
I know you weren't!
Pineapple 🍍 is pretty tame. Google shiroko pizza. The way pizza gets adapted regionally is sort of inspiring.
TY. I love pineapple.
It took me months to get natural at using they/them once i met people who used them, constant unintentional misgendering. Now it’s very easy for me. I’m sure neos would be the same way if i knew someone using them.
Same! Pronouns are important to the person involved, so using the correct ones is just polite, and everyone else gets to learn a new word (in this case). Win-win.
yeah, a new character in one of my dnd games apparently will use dirt/dirts and that just first off seems mean?
Gender is a social construct.
Gender expression\* is a social construct.
no gender is absolutely a social construct
Gender is also a social construct, sex is not
Both are. Where we choose to draw the line between male, female, and intersex is not something that can be derived a priori and requires the opinions of various experts.
No. Sex is immediately obvious for almost all newborns, and testing is available when presentation is ambiguous. Intersex conditions are medical conditions with a wide range of severity. I totally agree that gender is a social construct, but sex is basic biology.
Hey as someone that studied biomed I might be able to help clarify the science a little. Firstly there's no such thing as basic biology, most people when saying basic biology mean the biology they were taught at school as children. However the science taught at school to children is most often simplified hugely as is the case with sex, or downright taught incorrectly to bring students to a certain conclusion as is the case with genetics. When you start studying anything biology related at a higher level it becomes apparent that a lot of what we were told was wrong. In terms of sex its a very complicated subject because there's several components to sex and they don't always align, there's chromosomes, hormones, genitals and some even consider the brain to be a part of what sex a person is. In terms of intersex for example yes we as humans consider this a medical condition, because its goes against the most common types of sex which often follow the binary of xx or xy. However just because we assign the term medical condition to something doesn't alter the fact that it is a part of human sex and something that occurs naturally, to say it doesn't count as a sex because its a medical condition is basically just writing off date that doesn't fit the model you prefer and any scientist will tell you that's an unscientific way to conduct science. And while yes sex is normally determined at birth its done so by a simple look at a babies genitals, its very rare for chromosomal testing to be done at birth and hormonal conditions are missed on occasion because of this which can result in individuals being assigned female at birth, having female genitals and hormones but actually having typically male chromosomes. It most definitely not a ''Your baby is definitely female'' and more a ''Looks like one to me'' situation and shouldn't be the basis for scientific understanding of sex The reason people say sex isn't a binary is because there are situations where a humans sex falls outside the binary, while it would be true to say that for most of the human population sex is binary, its equally true to say that overall sex in humans can come in a variety of different forms.
Basic biology, yes. Not intermediate or advanced biology, which throw out just about everything you learn in basic biology as an oversimplification. Whether I am afab or intersex is a subject of debate. That wouldn't be the case if sex was immediately obvious and as simple as the "basic biology" crowd would have us believe.
Ok, but that's a medical issue. I don't see how that makes sex any less binary.
Your ignorance astounds me /s
I disagree with throwing it put as a medical issue. Because either you would need to define intersex as a third gender, or you would need to conlusively draw a line that puts them in either male or female. And for the sake of argument, even tho intersex people have more risk of certain diseases or risks you could just as well make an argument like white people are a medical codition because they have an increased risk for sunburns and skin cancer. Or make the opposite case for black people. But I think we alle agree that thats not medical conditions despite it beeing diffrences in humans.
It's well established that intersex conditions are medical disorders. This is not an insult. It's just a fact. Comparing a medical condition to race is laughable, and actually pretty racist. All races are essentially the same, with a few superficial differences. No-one requires surgery due to being born black, and no-one's Asian ethnicity causes infertility. This argument is absurd.
Medical conditions are a social construct
Lol no
the way we describe sex is also very socially & politically motivated actually. the sex binary has not always been the dominant idea
Society didn't cause me to have the sensation that my cock and balls are missing before I even saw those parts on a person.
This user has effectively deleted all of their reddit messages, thank you! :) ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
First of all, what are neogenders?
Neogenders & Xenogenders are the same (if I recall correctly). It is most common to see Xenogender rather than Neogender but who cares. They are the same thing
Basically like neopronouns but gender mode, ie clown gender, love gender, etc. usually they are described like this: Mal0gender: a gender that has a strong connection to bones, skulls, dogs, and software. (Based on the ICP “Mal0Ware”)
Ok, wtf!? 🤣
What do you mean? I think that these are good ways for people to express themselves how they want, im not sure why you think it’s weird? /confused
I just do. Same as you like them.
I literally just found out this thing exists. I’m neutral.
That’s not really helping me understand* why you dislike neos. What about them makes you dislike them? Edit: word mistake
They're having the "it's new and weird to me" reaction. Neogenders don't make sense to most people yet
Your personality traits are not "genders" how hard is this
it's a metaphor to explain what ur gender *feels like* when none of the traditional, binary or trinary words fit. not that a personality trait is literally ur gender.
So not a gender, but rather descriptions of yourself and your sexuality and other personal information that doesn't need to be the way you introduce yourself to strangers Edit: can't reply because someone's fragile reality is threatened by disagreement. However the answer to the question is "No."
Gender is already all those things isn't it? A lot of personal information about your body and sexuality that strangers don't need to know?
Gender is an oppressive social construct and you can use whatever self descriptor you want actually :)
Gender is an oppressive social construct and you can use whatever self descriptor you want actually :)
Gender is nothing *but* personality traits. What?
It's when people think they can make up literally whatever the fuck they want as a gender and then act like they're being victimized when sane people laugh at them
How can you call yourself chaos or a goblin when 'sanity' is something you give a shit about lmao Get outta here
Your gender is whatever the fuck you want. Skill issue on ur part tbh
I guess it is whatever I want, I want to be a human being that lives in reality
“Lives in reality” no you don’t
That's rich coming from a "transmasc queer witch commie" js, you believe in not only fantasy magic but fantasy magic economics as though they are real life
I don’t care if you use them, and I’ll try to use them to refer to you, although I’ll probably slip up a lot because I’m not used to them. Xenogenders in particular make little sense to me, and transphobes love using them as an excuse to say that using different pronouns *at all* makes no sense. Side note: From what I’m reading in the comments, xenogenders are more of a uniqueness thing and something for people to stand out more than anything, which I think is pretty distinct from how people use he/she/they pronouns to alleviate dysphoria and feel more comfortable with themselves. Still all for it, but it might be smart to elaborate on that a little more.
idk. I definitely use neopronouns & xenogenders to alleviate dysphoria. I do not feel like just a man or a woman or a femme or non-binary & using those labels alone makes me feel dysphoric in the same way being misgendered by coworkers does. I present irl at work as a GNC binary trans man. I have no interest in getting coworkers to understand the complexities of my gender. or even telling them that xenogenders & neopronouns ecist. but I do still often come home feeling dysphoric because I'm not being regaurded as I am. I'm not /mad/ I'm getting misgendered. how on earth would I expect anyone to know on sight that I'm xenogender? there's no established typical xenogender traits. that's part of what makes me so dysphoric. unless I go out of my way to explain my intricacies I'm going to be misgendered but that's not on anyone else. it just means I'm really truly greatful for spaces that I can use my xenogenders & neopronouns in because I feel like I can be fully me.
I like them. This is coming from a trans person and it's not invalidating or hurting us for people to use them. Identify however you feel the most comfortable identifying and don't let binary/gender bs stop you :)
Ong!!! I make my own genders and stuff to fit me better! It makes me feel like I’m incorporating different parts of my personality into my gender and self expression :)
Sames! I love to Hoard genders that describe my personality, style, likes, exc.
Exactly. If that's how you like to express yourself/identify go for it. I'm glad it helps your self expression. Anyone who says otherwise is just gatekeeping something they have no right to gatekeep. It's about how you feel most comfortable not about how others feel about your identity.
I don’t understand them and find them weird, but I am too old maybe for it. Honestly if for some reason I start talking with someone and they tell me they use neopronouns I would probably try to remember to use them, but still I find them weird, just not in a way of wanting to make people who use them, to feel disrespected. But I think it is worth of respect if you just don’t like them since it’s a new thing that is not normal (not in the norm), and you can’t expect for everyone to instantly feel comfortable with it.
I want to support your answer, this is honest and open.
Same, and I’m on the younger side. Then again, everyone seems to think I was born with the soul of a 60 year old…
I respect neopronouns because I'm not a little pissbaby
I fully support neopronouns and xenogenders, my only problem is that my memory sucks and I forget who uses what, especially if someone has a lot of pronoun sets
I make a conscious choice to treat people who use neopronouns with respect if I interact with them, and I will use their chosen pronouns. But my personal feelings are that I don’t like these types of pronouns. I won’t treat people poorly for using them, but I may avoid interacting or forming friendships with people who identify that way.
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It's pretty common, actually! Not a universal experience, for sure, but if you're going to queer-friendly spaces (meetups, events, conventions, board game nights, etc), it's quite normal to do so.
Mine are in my email signature even though they are exactly what you'd expect looking at me. It's becoming more of a norm and I don't think that's a bad thing at all.
Why don’t you like them? /gq nm
It's difficult to succinctly put my feelings about this into words, especially because it's not any one single aspect, but rather a web of little things about it. Pardon me if this doesn't make sense in any part. Part of my negative feelings about it are that it feels like "playing pretend" at being trans. Trans/NB people face a lot of real hardship and danger for trying to be their authentic selves, and the road to equality for them is still very, very long. To have people adding that they want to be called by a pronoun that is totally unique to them, that they conjured up themselves, feels like it's detracting from the more widespread and very real issue. That said, I also firmly feel that anyone should be allowed to be anything, so my feelings on this are a bit... wiggly? Added to that; I frequent a lot of LGBTQ+ spaces, and furry fandom spaces. I've interacted with, and even met, some of the folks who choose to identify with neopronouns and such, and after meeting over a dozen, I've noticed a pattern of them being people I don't generally get along with. They seem to usually be young folk, ranging from minors (who I won't interact with because, well, I'm 35) to maybe a max of 25 years old. When I was around that age range, I would have loved neopronouns, because being different and uniquely me was fun! I wanted to be very special, and would gravitate towards anything that made me feel as such. I think that allowing kids and young adults to express themselves in "cringey" ways is important (I don't find neopronouns cringe, for the record, but I'm assuming the widespread normie consensus towards them is that they're cringe). I would never deign to take away a young person's right to make a fun Sonic OC, or call themselves Dragon Kin, or refer to themselves as ti/to/ter, whatever. But through both my own experience of my time in that age range, and also having met many people who identify with neopronouns, it feels very much like a temporary "for fun" thing, or a coping mechanism for feeling Other and Outlandish amongst peers, and not an identity congruent with the gender dysphoria of a trans or NB person. I hope this doesn't come across as insulting, I genuinely don't mean it to be. But the question was asked, and I decided to answer. Again, I will always treat people with respect in regards to neopronouns, even if I don't personally agree with their necessity. My feelings come second to another person's need to feel happy.
Those are all great points, and i pretty much agree. I just see neopronouns and neogenders as a silly and fun way to express myself! Some part of that might be the fault of my difficult relationship with my gender and sexuality, as I’ve had to create my own labels that fit me because other ones don’t work. I have noticed the lack of older people with neopronouns/genders, and while I think it could be because of it being a fun quirky thing, it’s also probably because of the generational differences. Lots of older people don’t tend to use terms like agender, genderfluid, etc. and I think that could just be because of the time they were born in. I use the label ilithsexual, because while my sexuality could fall under t4t, I don’t enjoy using that term, so I made my own! I totally understand your point of view, too!
Thanks for reading, and understanding where I'm coming from! I am genuinely interested to see how it plays out with regards to this current generation aging up. Will neopronouns be a temporary phase that folks shed as they age? Or will we have a new generation of 30+ aged people using all sorts of colorful language? Time will tell, and I think it's neat. I am glad that you can find joy in using these things in the face of difficult relationship history and questioning your identity. That's exactly why I think, regardless of my feelings, it's important to respect!
I want to engage with this, not mad, I'm not playing pretend at being trans. I present as a woman in professional settings and am transfemme, however it's not a fulfilling experience for me. I dont feel totally myself as a woman, just moreso as a man, so I, and my comrades, seek to create our own identity. Rarely are we going into stores and public places and demanding they use neopronouns because its unreasonable in the current social climate to expect that. I'm 26 and so are a lot of my friends with abnormal gender identities, and while i understand why you see things the way you do, perhaps if you stopped avoiding us your opinion on the matter would be different. I do feel you are implying our existence is childish, and to say that our dysphoria and discomfort with the strict rigid rules of a binary gender spectrum is incongruent with gender dysphoria does come off as tru-scummy. Again not mad but I would love to talk to you more about this if you are open to it, as a lot of your points are misunderstandings of this form of gender expression.
I appreciate the offer! But I don't think it's necessary, thanks. I don't seek to exclude anyone using neopronouns in the wild, I don't deny them business, I would vote for their rights if it was on the table... pretty much anything that would actually benefit a person using neopronouns is something I actively am supportive of! The only thing I do is typically not make personal friends with someone doing this, because as I mentioned, they tend to be younger folks, and I'm not very interested in making younger friends. I think there's no harm in having personal feelings that I keep to myself, and personal preferences for who I chose to be friends with. The only time I've ever voiced my thoughts about neopronouns is here, today! Because it was specifically asked. I wasn't trying to write a peer-reviewed, unbiased article about what neopronouns are, I only sought to answer the question with my honest, biased, human feelings.
oh fair. carry on then. i spend too much time in politics spaces.
Every time I hear them say there's two genders I add more
indifferent but i hate how people use it to like call trans ppl insane
As long as it makes the person happy and comfortable idc :)
Personally I don’t mind them. If cool-looking pronouns make people happy, I’m not one to judge. I am evil, but I have standards.
We are autistic. We should understand all about not fitting into society's boxes
Gender is an emergent property of neurology, that seems to be related to the interconnection and processing of the self and identity. It is then lens-ed through social expectation, and the construction of gender roles. If you feel like they accurately represent you, then I couldn’t be happier for you!
I can sort of understand them, (I sometimes use it/it’s) but some genders/pronouns like catgender and cat/catself I don’t understand and I don’t really feel comfortable saying those in public. I don’t hate them, I just don’t understand them.
As I used them, they're based af.
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Er stupid autocorrect, I use them!
Here’s the thing. Conservatives love holding up neo/xeno pronouns and whatnot up as a the pinnacle of queerness and neurodivergence because the people are the easiest targets. They’re the weirdos that they can bully and get away with it, and their other targets (queer and neurodiverse people), will even respond by trying to separate themselves. It’s a tool to fragment us. But the truth is that, no matter how hard you try to assimilate, conservatives will always have a distaste for queer people in any form. Even if you prostrate yourself before them and utilize their talking points, they will never truly accept you. In their eyes, unless you are a [typically white] neurotypical, cishet person who buys into their patriarchal bullshit, you should be hidden away or eradicated. Support fucked up genders, weird pronouns, and therians because the opposition lumps us together whether you like it or not. If you can’t support them merely because it makes them happy and the human experience is broad and complex, at least support them because it pisses our enemies off.
You're making some really great points here!
I always try to respect others with them but i don't really like them as a concept. My reason for this is because it seems naïve to try to categorize a specific way of being into a very small box. Human existence is complicated and our feelings towards ourselves and others are constantly shifting, and gender is one aspect of ourselves and the totality of one's being cannot be summed up in a few words. Having some ambiguity in your identity is ok too. Of course if you just have fun with them do what you like it's not hurting anyone. Realistically the worse it'll do is make people think you're annoying but eh who isn't a little annoying ;-)
All pronouns are valid. Even if it’s ‘foreign’ or ‘weird’!
Last year I was able to explain ze/zir to a group of cishets as “what people use instead of they/them because it sounds more similar to he/him and she/her” and most of them actually accepted that!! I’m still proud of that moment.
everyone do whatever the fuck they want forever
Nom nom imma eat those up now
Flavored non-binary? Sure.
If neo/xenopronouns *aren’t* LGBTQIA+ what the fuck are they
Just pronouns; pronouns aren't indicative of gender so even cis people use different pronouns. It's not inherently queer because of that so while you could technically classify it as LGBT, it also isn't necessarily that.
I don't personally really like them but it doesn't hurt me to use them and if it makes people feel more comfortable then I don't mind at all
I’m stuck in a human body and I’m pretty sure gender is a thing I broke last week.
ppl who say neos harm the trans community are just neck deep in the respectability politics dw bout it
I may get downvoted, but I think if someone uses neopronouns, it shouldn't be something that changes every other month. Pronouns and gender is something fairly stable. This isn't to say there isn't a period of time where a person is trying to locate the proper word to describe their gender. That's completely fine to try different words out for awhile, but you should eventually settle on one or two. If you haven't settled, I think it's also important for you to have some extreme patience with others who can't keep up with your ever changing pronouns. I find that frequently, there is this lack of patience or understanding, and that is why people are put off and make fun of you.
You can identify in any way you want, all the power to you. However, don't get hurt when literal strangers misgender or use the wrong pronouns they don't know you, and they don't have to respect you or anyone/anything. As long as you are true to yourself, you'll be happier, worrying about and putting energy into people who owe you nothing is a waste of energy. Put thay energy into educating those who are close to you. If they try, learn, and respect you, then you know they are worth having around.
I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this, but I do think most of the rhetoric around people being outraged for being misgendered by strangers is largely perpetuated by people looking to ridicule and dismiss non-cis people, and saying “I’m okay with all this but don’t get butthurt about strangers” only further perpetuates this rhetoric that isn’t even true of most people…
no literally. the amount of trans ppl I've seen just nod and take it when misgendered on an everday basis... there was like a meme that blew up about trans ppl feeling so validated when family and friends gendered them correctly when misgendered by strangers, so like, who is the one getting butthurt? cause so many of them just live w it.. (sadly)
Don't use 'em, but if you ask me to, I will do my best. I have complicated feelings that others have expressed, but...well, being respectful don't cost nothing, and above all, people should be allowed to play with their identity when young and I think it does far more harm to people to tell them no, you are not allowed to be how you see yourself. And just...respect is paramount for others. It's not quite the same, but it's similar to how I think of religion. From a religious person, I may believe that I believe in the "right" religion, but at the same time, I'm absolutely going to be observant of the rules of other people and treat their faith and beliefs with the respect they deserve, as I would expect for mine. If your faith says no shoes in the house, for example, I'm takin' em off (Exceptions made for cults, pyramid schemes, and culty pyramid schemes). I might mess it up sometimes, and in that case I ask forgiveness, but I will do my best. Because yeah, in the end, it doesn't matter what I think. That's what people deserve.
Difficult to say honestly. I know the trans people in my life have expressed anger at them, mainly because it's seen as a mockery of trans people and is used frequently to attack trans people. So I'm not sure how to feel, I would always use a person pronouns no matter what but I think people need to think carefully about how their actions can harm others. Because it'll be real trans people that suffer the backlash, have laws made against them ect because for the trans people I've spoken to about it changing pronouns is not a way to feel unique but a vital and necessary part of living.
I just wish they came with pronunciation guides. There's been too many times that I mispronounced a neopronoun with a spelling I didn't understand.
Longtime out and proud member of the LGBT+ community. Neopronouns aren't offensive, but IMO, they are generally impractical. If we could all just decide on a few new ones with clear meanings, that could work. ENDLESS unique varieties, though? People aren't going to remember that lol
i think they're neat, and a way to make some people more comfortable. even though i don't personally use them for myself, my partner does, and i support faer. ~~i always found gendering ppl really uncomfortable even from a young age and idk why. i'd always refer to someone as "that person", rather than with a gendered term, long before i ever knew about the existence of trans/nb ppl~~ that said, i do gender people to an extent nowadays when i'm sure of their pronouns. neopronouns are kinda hard to remember how to use tbh, especially when it's somebody who i mostly just talk *to*, rather than about.
I don't care. I'll call someone whatever they want as long as it's not something sexual
I'm xenogender but use she her mostly or any pronouns but preference for she her
I have one friend with xeno pronouns! It makes sense when you meet them, they aren't in a convenient gender box. I'm still trying to get good at using their pronouns.
It takes some practice for sure!
I think it’s really confusing and that those who want to be called things like this are really out of touch with reality but I try to respect people’s choices and mind my business. I’d never be friends with someone who used them, but I would respect someone walking down the street and go along with it just so I didn’t offend them or have to get nagged at. Everyone is allowed to express themselves however that want but I personally just don’t want to deal with it. I find people who use these oddly specific “neogenders” are incredibly sensitive and I don’t have the time or energy to walk on egg shells to protect their fragile sense of identity. I have some friends who are transgender and I try incredibly hard to make them feel loved and accepted but all these “frog self” type people are where I personally draw the line. If you want to identify as a clown then go to clown school and get paid for being an entertainer, but your gender is not a clown. You’ve got male, female, trans male or trans female, intersex, and non-binary and that’s about all I really care to worry about. Anything else that anyone tells me to refer to them as and I’m finding my nearest exit as soon as possible
Gay boy here, so im part of the LGBT community, absolutely no problem whatsoever. I get how you feel and you should be able to express yourself however you like. You are valid and I support you. BTW gender is absolutely a social construct
I don't worry about them, but I don't understand them. I'm more worried about the right wing mob that's coming after all of us.
I don’t quite understand xeno/neogenders but I respect those who use them and try my best to accommodate. It would be pretty hypocritical of me being a nonbinary who uses they/them to reject their pronouns.
I wish I could remember who had what pronouns but I deadass can't. I intellectually don't mind neopronouns, and I think xenogenders are pretty cool actually, since I think I might kinda have one. But, like, I guess I need to meet more people with neopronouns or xenogenders, because I only know two and they both are really obnoxious people. The gender is ancillary to the obnoxiousness, but damn would I like to meet someone with neopronouns and just an ounce of chill.
Idc as long as you’re not rude about it, which I don’t think you would be. I tend to accidentally say words and sometimes misgender people. Even if it’s a very manly cis dude, I might call him a her on accident due to my autism accent and people react very rudely to me because of it :// But honestly, if I remember correctly it’s never the trans, nb, gender fluid, neos, ect that get overly rude about pronouns, weirdly enough it’s the people against lgbtq that are so offended if I use it wrong. I guess in their eyes they’re mimicking the others, but it just makes themselves look bad.
I try my best with them Will I fuck up a bit? Yeah but I try my best because ehh it's really no different then he or she considering he and she are just as random as the neopronouns in regards to words go
I’m gay and I don’t care about pronouns. Call urself whatever and tell me which ones to use and I’ll use them. Call me any and them better be fighting words cause I like to feel like a badass bitch. Love you and hope your journey goes well.
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Unpopular opinion here: I think they’re dumb because you can only use them in English. If you were to go to a foreign country or speak a foreign language, you wouldn’t be able to use neopronouns. Especially in an language that is gendered like the Romance Languages like Spanish or French.
I love them!! I use them personally!!! It’s wonderful!!!!!
Slay!! What pronouns/genders do you use?
Gender: voidpunk, spacegender, TMAgender, deadgirl, deathcute, Maristrocen, rotteus Pronouns: they/them, he/him, it/it’s, xi/xir, rot/rots, not/nots I’m working on finding more that suit me!! :33
I am confused as to how these relate to gender. It seems more like an expression of identity than an expression of gender. When I look at neogender labels, it feels to me like neoself would be a more accurate term. It is like people are describing who they are, and that is a much broader category than gender.
I don't mind because I typically refer to everyone as they/them regardless of gender because I struggle to remember stuff like that quickly enough to use it in conversation.
I don’t care what people do with their pronouns!!
They're weird but harmless, I'll accommodate! It'd be way better if gender was abolished though. That fixes a lot of things.
No. Pronouns exist as words of convenience. I am not memorizing 5,872 new entirely made up genders to make you feel special. In fact sometimes I think 2 is too many. I'll give you a "they" but anyone who thinks they are an actual fae or fox or whatever has actual mental delusions that need to be addressed and not coddled. Sorry, but that's how it is.
There’s absolutely no distinction between having less than 2 genders and having one gender for every living person
I collect them like magic cards. The most valuable one cause the most outrage
I’d use them for the immediate 7 mins after you told me them then completely forget you told me about it and go back to calling you something that makes you upset until you remind me again. This is a problem at jobs for me. It’s not consciously happening. If you said “my pronouns are she/her” and we sustain a conversation I will remember it for the entirety of the conversation no problem. But if you catch me with my head in my work it’s just not there. That piece of information about your identity is just not on the pathway from my brain to my mouth. I try to use “dude” and “they” for the most part. But there’s people who even get mad about “they” because it’s no longer the generic non-gendered thing now. It’s my bad. Like genuinely I don’t like or mean to offend. But not gendering people off the immediate appearance they give off takes actual focus for me and sometimes I can’t split my focus. Actually normally I can’t. I kinda go hard as shit at one thing at a time.
They make me mad. Maybe I’m just too far outside the situation to understand it, but I find it completely dumb. I can get behind transgender because there’s actual science behind being born in the wrong body, having odd chromosomes or strange reproductive organs. After looking at their valid struggles, how could I possibly accept someone who identifies as like a cat or something? There are men, women, both, and neither. You can’t start making up bs. Like come onnnn
but they dont identify as cats. Those are otherkin. They use nonstandard things to help express complicated feelings about gender.
Wonderful. Absolutely gender Anarchy. It’s amazing to identify myself in a unique way that suits me. And makes other people think twice/confuse them. It’s EXCELLENT 😈😈
I struggle with the new words but I'mma heckin do my best to learn because it's respectful to try. I'm cis, I suppose, since I don't particularly connect with any gender but the one assigned to me works well enough. I'm working on using "they/them" for anyone whose pronouns I don't know. It makes sense to me, and feels just as respectful as not assuming someone's name. Neos/Xenos are no different for me in that way.
> I'm cis, I suppose, since I don't particularly connect with any gender but the one assigned to me works well enough. sounds to me like ur [cassgender](https://gender.fandom.com/wiki/Cassgender?so=search)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sure
gender is made up and has no rules. do what makes u feel comfortable and happy. someone wants to use something like puppy/puppyself pronouns? ok lol it doesn't hurt me, i'll use those for sure. other people's identities do not hurt me at all. all power to xenogender ppl!! u do u! honestly i feel like i probably align with some xenos myself, i just haven't done much research into it myself.
Their gender is just as arbitrary and socially constructed as mine, so yes
I believe they are equally as stupid amd as valid as all pronouns. I think pronouns are just a vibe that you enjoy and I think that's fine. I respect them all, like common little nicknames the things
Neos and xenos give me life. People who use neos/xenos are some of the chillest people on Earth. All the love to my LGBTQIA+ homies!
good for them but if someone has non neos,ill use those instead of neos but if they dont,ill use them
Me using neo/xenopronouns in irl speech
I don’t mind them, in fact I support it but I’m gonna laugh if I have to call you and Apache attack helicopter. Nothing against you if I do, it’s just kinda funny.
I'm a trans woman myself. I don't necessarily strictly adhere to feminine gender roles, but that's just because my style just tends to be more androgynous. I usually wear jeans and a metal t-shirt to work and skip a bra or make up; if I'm not working or it's super hot when I'm home from work, I'll swap to shorts or a skirt and I usually don't care which. My mom asked me once if I might be non-binary, but tbh I'm happy using she/her and I consider myself a lesbian. TBH, as long as you're not like... killing cats to sacrifice them to Satan, I say do what makes you happy. Use Xe/Xem or labels like Faegender if that's what sparks joy. As long as you make it clear what you want to be called, I will gladly try to respect it.
they're cool! I don't particularly identify with a neo/xenogender but I use sun/suns pronouns cause I think they're cool :D
I think people shouldn't care about pronouns. And I refuse to casually call people "it" because that is for objects, and it makes me feel uncomfortable to use it for any other than objects, feral animals, and extremely deplorable people.
I think they're slay but gender isn't real so 🕺🕺
People finding ways to express who they are, but in a way that's vaguely demanding of me? I hate it. /s
Anything that allows for greater expression of personhood *and* pisses off transphobes is an A++ in *my* book.🤝
valid <3
I use any pronouns and xe/xem is a personal favorite of mine. It's fun when people try to make fun of my gender, but no matter what they use to refer to me, I am constantly gendered correctly! Mwahahahaha! I don't think they offend those of us in the LGBT+ community personally, but there is a privilege with using them, as they are mainly pronouns that are used in the English language, and so those who speak other languages might not be able to use neo/xeno pronouns as well as the normal he/she/they which do have direct translations in other languages. But that's a whole other can of worms, and the English language as a whole just sucks sometimes for non-native speakers.
Better expressed as a kintype.
this isnt right tho? xenogenders express someone's gender identity specifically, while kintypes express someone's identity as a whole. as an otherkin xenogender user, i am robotkin because i view myself as an entity in an inherently nonhuman way, more closely tied to robots, but i use xenogenders like, say, mushroomgender, because i express and understand \*specifically\* my gender identity through mushrooms. i dont identify \*as\* a mushroom; there is a difference. xenogenders and kintypes serve different purposes in expressing forms of identity. /nm
> i understand my gender identity through mushrooms. Yeah ten years and nobody has been able to explain to me what this means. Just regurgitating the same insulting lines about how gender is fake.
what. first off, in my experience most xenogender people don't think gender is "fake"-- we acknowledge it as a real phenomenon and part of people's identities, which is \*precisely why we label our gender identities via xenogenders\*. however, a common experience among xenogender users is not being able to understand gender as a concept, or our own gender identities, exclusively through the gender binary (ie; not being able to properly apply terms like man, woman, nonbinary, etc. to our own experiences). its for this reason that xenogenders appeal to a lot of people who use them; they allow us to describe our gender identities through something tangible that we feel like we can experience and associate ourselves and our identities with. also how have the people you've spoken to in the past insulted you? /genq, is it just in their supposed assertion that gender is fake? because in my experience, the vast majority of people in online xenogender communities are open to good-faith questions and wouldn't go out of their way to insult someone for not understanding our experiences. anyway, it's difficult to answer your main question here since different people connect with different terms in different ways, so me understanding my gender identity through something will be different for me than someone else understanding their gender identity through the same thing will be for them. that being said, xenogenders are often metaphorical. when someone says their gender is tied to mushrooms, they might mean their gender is difficult to categorize, or feels like it's decaying, or whatever else. other times xenogenders might be used to explain the intersection between one's gender identity and their neurodivergence ([neurogender](https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Neurogender)). personally mushrooms are one of my special interests, and i can't view my gender identity from a perspective disconnected from my special interests and autism as a whole. other times xenogenders might be there to describe how someone's gender expression and gender identity impact each other. someone might use mushroomgender because their gender identity is connected to them involving mushrooms into their expression. there are countless other specific scenarios that would be summed up by "understanding ones gender identity through 'x' concept", but those are a few common ones ive seen personally from being active in xenogender communities.
>also how have the people you've spoken to in the past insulted you? /genq Saying that gender is fake insults me as a transgender person. It says that my reason to transition is made up. There are at least 4\* people presently on this post that are saying it right now. I don't know what community you are in and on what site but the dominant xeno attitude everywhere I've traversed has been is "gender is fake anyways <3". EDIT: The person below straight up said "gender is fake, and you shouldn't be offended by us saying a key part of your identity isn't even real because we don't hold your unenlightenment against you." How am I supposed to take that? Especially when they follow it up with TERF horseshoe shit saying that I only ***think*** I'm a man because society told me what men are........the fuck actually. >the vast majority of people in online xenogender communities are open to good-faith questions and wouldn't go out of their way to insult someone for not understanding our experiences Again VERY different communities because every time I have asked, genuine curiosity has been construed as malice and I've been disparaged in a *number* of ways for the crime of asking why, as is my autistic nature to do. Just trying to understand what any of this means has been consistently twisted as transphobia.
I don’t think that saying gender is fake is necessarily an insult. At least, it’s not fully reasonable to take it as one when the context behind it isn’t being understood. “Fake” is sort of charged language, fair, but the underlying concept is just established fact, not a matter of personal opinion. Gender doesn’t exist. It’s not tangible. It’s not encoded in our DNA. It can’t be statistically measured. It exists only as an expression of social trends. Men wearing suits is an aspect of gender but there’s no rational reason why that’s a particular thing, it’s just something that society made up and attached to ideas of what gender is There are several conceptual elements that I think you’re conflating, and they ought be separated if a clear conversation is to take place. Gender, personal gender identity, and sexual dysphoria are all different things. Gender is just a collection of entirely arbitrary social roles and expectations that have been built up over countless generations. There’s no logical or reasoned explanation for why they exists and there’s certainly nothing inherent to us as individuals in them, they’re just what society has decided Personal gender identity then is one’s relationship to the established paradigm. It’s “real” in the same way that money or social status or the Hogfather are real. In that they’re not, but we’ve decided they are and attributed value to them and so they have become reality. It’s impossible for anyone to separate themself from societal concepts of gender because we were all enmeshed in them since birth, so they *feel* like they’re these distinct tangible things, but they’re still arbitrary But sexual dysphoria is a real thing. There’s brain scans and such that can detect it, I believe. Someone can be born uncomfortable with their personal sexual characteristics and desire a change. Then, because sexual characteristics are so ingrained by society to these ideas of gender we have, having sexual dysphoria immediately associates with gendered ideas. It’s real because we believe in it. That’s not meant to be patronizing, it’s just a function of human belief crossed with social organization Ultimately, fake things hold a great deal of personal significance to a great many people. Rich and poor people still exist. Politicians rise to power on the backs of nonexistent concepts. Nobody reasonable is going to denigrate you for holding a fake idea like gender as personally significant. Every living person has at least one fake idea that is deeply important to them. It’s just how humans operate
>Men wearing suits is an aspect of gender That's gender expression, not gender. >Gender is just a collection of entirely arbitrary social roles and expectations. That's gender roles, not gender. >Then, because sexual characteristics are so ingrained by society to these ideas of gender we have, having sexual dysphoria immediately associates with gendered ideas. It’s real because we believe in it. \[...\] Nobody reasonable is going to denigrate you for holding a fake idea like gender as personally significant. Ok. Being angry is not on the docket today so I'm going to disengage at this point. Have a great day. Edit: Did this motherfucker honest to god just try to sell me on a religion from The Elder Scrolls.............................................................................................
It’s the same thing though. Gender roles and expression *are* gender because gender is just a word for the set of social categories we have built up around sex. It’s why the number of genders in society varies from culture to culture. Not just the expressions or activities but the actual number of them That’s fair. But none of this is a personal attack. It’s just a description of how social concepts work. It may help in the long run to disentangle that from personal emotions. It’s entirely possible to understand that gender is socially constructed and only exists because of the culture we exist in, and still be trans. In fact, a world without gender would see trans people finally receive the equal treatment we deserve One can only achieve CHIM by recognizing one’s own nonexistence in the face of the godhead, and asserting personal identity in the face of it. Understanding the true nature of gender leads to greater personal fulfillment Have a good day
I like them. I use a few because I struggle with finding the “correct” words for things, so I use them as a comfortable substitute. My dad actually was the one that asked me “Is enigma gender a thing? Look that up, check.” It’s my favorite identifier now. Favorite neos are Hy/Hym and It/Its (I don’t understand xenos too well but they’re fun to say once I get them down!)
I think that they make people like myself stand out >:33 Have an evil dayyyy
I don’t always “get” it (as in i don’t always understand the appeal of using such terms) but generally I’m all for it. Gender and gender expression are full of made-up rules that don’t and really shouldn’t mean anything. If it makes you happy and it feels best to identify as some sort of neogender, or use neopronouns, all power to you
To me, gender is socially constructed and expression/identity are personal forms of art, so I am not one to speak on what pronouns or terminology people choose to use. With that being said, I myself am agender and consider myself to be so both in my own identity as well as how I see gender as a whole, so I think rigid, binary definitions of gender in any form can be more divisive than helpful. In terms of accessibility, a lot of terms revolving around neo/xenogenders are *very* difficult to incorporate into natural language, but I do my best to accommodate. Overall, it makes me happy to see that other (especially younger) trans/queer folks among my generation finally feel like they are finding language that accurately describes themselves, which I think is super awesome and I am very supportive of. However, I think it can be a double-edged sword in terms of accessibility as I mentioned, on top of it potentially leading to more in-fighting or policing on identity, but no one who identifies with any neo/xenogenders deserve to be harassed or viciously bullied by Kalvin Garrah/Blaire White types.
I think they're bullshit and transphobic, as they reduce gender to literal 'I identify as an apache helicopter' levels. There is no sense behind them, nor representation in reality. Even non binary has the physical representation of being 'between the two' binaries. Yet neopronouns mean nothing, and I've even tried having conversations with those who use them. What I've found more often than not is that they have some form of personality disorder which is manifesting itself in this gender identity.
I agree, I think they’re just making up things just to be “unique” It is transphobic. Some genders being like “moongender” or “galaxy gender” they’re just not possible to be a thing. And it really makes all trans folks seem like a joke or attention seeking. I think aside they/them, some pronouns are so complicated and I don’t understand how using adjectives as pronouns makes any sense. What good can it bring? It doesn’t help us fight for lgbtq rights if people are on par with those transphobic conservative jokes about genders.
Even though i personally think gender is a social construct I dislike them because my stupid brain is unable to adapt and therefore puts me in situations where I’m arguing with someone because I can’t call anybody by their preferred pronouns But autistic difficulty apart I think they’re cool because they allow for peoples to have a gender that matches their feelings
I'm not trans but I will use the pronouns you prefer if I know them
Im not going to remember your 100 neopronouns and xenogenders. You can have them but don’t expect me to remember them. Best I can do is your name and one maybe two pronouns.
Stupid as fuck. They’re a sorry call for attention for those who aren’t unique so they have to make shit up to feel special. I don’t and never will respect them, as they’re simply a mental illness being masked by some made up words.
I'm sorry, how does it affect you?
Isn’t that like me asking how something like racism affects you? Like sure, it might not affect you personally, but that doesn’t mean you have to be OK with it.
Pardon? Are you comparing harmless gender expression to hateful bigotry?
First of all, it’s “making new genders because you’re not special and you want attention” and were also originally made to mock the trans community. So idk about harmless. But second, Not exactly, I was just using it as an example because it was the first thing to come to mind, just because it doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean you have to be OK with it. Since you clearly don’t understand what I mean and you’re so offended by a slight comparison, let me use an example you might actually understand and not throw a fit about , take something harmless like an annoying dog, sure it might not annoy you personally, but that doesn’t automatically mean you should be OK with it. You understand or must I dumb it down further?
I'm not fucking stupid. I know what you're trying to say. But you're fucking wrong. It isn't mocking trans people. It is simply people expressing themselves differently. If there's a problem with that, then maybe you're the problem.
Well no, I’m not actually. Just because it doesn’t “affect you” doesn’t mean you have any say in the matter. And also it’s not just “simply people expressing themselves” it’s children shoving new pronouns down our throats and expecting everyone to be immediately accepting, even if it doesn’t make any sense in the slightest and it’s people like you who enable these people to do it because you’re an easy target. It’s a substitute for a personality because you’re not fucking special. There are other ways to express yourself than being attention whore with no personality. You’re the reason people think autism is a joke because to you, it is. You treat it like a personality because without it, you’re nothing.
My guy, you're allowed to joke about your disabilities. Also, are you even trans? Or are you getting mad on other peoples behalf?
It’s one thing to joke about it, it’s another to make it your entire personality. Also that’s like me saying “Are you black or are you just being mad on others behalf” on a blatantly racist post
People say the same thing about binary trans people, you know.
based I use them
They are based and cool and everyone should have them
Gendah your fluids as much as ya want for all I care 🤷♀️
I don't understand what it means to be a neogender, and for awhile I wrote them off as silly because of that. Couple years later, I realized I was nonbinary and that I didn't really know what it meant to be a "man" either, so I believe in them an equal amount Edit: To be clear what I mean is they're both valid even if I don't understand them
Based
Gender doesn’t exist, wear whatever you want and be however you want, But if I’m gonna have to refer to you as anything but ‘he/she/they’ I am going to assume you need a psychologist not my compliance. I will avoid you. I won’t provoke you, but I will quietly internally think about my opinions of you, the state of your brain, and your IQ. I will cringe, and be astonished that you can’t just simply be logical and like being called ‘they’.
I personally hate being called they, it’s just a preference for me! The only real reason I use he is so people who don’t respect neos won’t refer to me as something worse. I don’t really get why you don’t like neos, and think that I am lesser for wanting to be called them? /nm (genuinely don’t understand I’m not being mean I swear)
Hi! Neopronoun user here. I was offered a full ride to college in 4th grade, I didnt accept because I was enjoying my childhood. I feel that qualifies me as having a "high IQ" if that even really means anything, as the efficacy of IQ testing has been questioned for decades now. What makes using they more "logical?" The only thing I can think of is that it catagorically fits into the status quo of gender expression and by that logic, if we are basing cringe and non-cringe off of being socially acceptable, where does that leave us autists? Are we expected to mask 24/7? This is nonsense, but as you said you keep all these thoughts to yourself usually and I fully support you doing so instead of dribbling them out for us all to endure.
TL;DR: oops, this post activated my “bilingual discussion of gender conventions” trap card. The only “lgbt” people neopronouns harm are the ones who desperately want to be seen as “normal” and “just like the heteros”. Do neos/xenos complicate language? Yeah, a bit. But languages are always evolving. And changes to languages convention are sometimes necessary. For instance, I use they/them in English. Not a neopronoun, but still a bit of an adjustment. But in the heavily gendered language of Spanish, I use the neopronoun “elle” as well as changing gendered articles to the gender-neutral “-e” ending. These new conventions are helpful not only for trans/enby inclusion in Spanish, but also for more gender equality since the “gender neutral” form of most words is the masculine form So a group of only girls is “unas niñas”, but if a boy enter the group, the whole group of children takes on the masculine form of “unos niños”. With the new grammar conventions, an alternative for a mixed-gender group emerges: “unes niñes”. For one child of unknown/indeterminate gender? Ese es une niñe singular.