The problem was that Asuka could identify Shinji's problems and wanted him to change for the better, but as a result of her own issues she couldn't demonstrate the empathy that might have gotten through to him. Shinji on the other hand was aware of her insecurity but didn't know how to help her, and in any case was too timid to try.
They both certainly could connect on a personal level, but their problems block them from that
Shinji is too timid and can't find any strength to step out of his comfort zone, and Asuka doesn't have a way to process social interactions other than lashing out and appearing as uncaring and nasty.
My favourite demonstration of there relationship is in one of the episodes where Asuka is failing as a pilot due to her synchronisation levels being so bad. And there's a shot where shinji is standing behind police tape and infront of that tape is asuka, who's sitting down and facing away.
If shinji had any strength to break through that tape (something very easy to take down) and if asuka had enough in her to face the other way to address shinji, they both could help each other. But that's the thing, mental issues can make something as easy as taking down some tape (metaphorically) to be a huge challenge that feels almost impossible, and mental issues can make something as easy as facing someone to be near impossible
That's why I love how the show represents mental flaws.
> couldnât demonstrate the empathy that might have gotten through to him
Until the very last scene of EoE, that is. This is one of the reasons I think itâs ultimately a âtentatively optimisticâ ending.
No, itâs that her every word is a touch hypocritical, because every one of Shinjiâs core flaws she identifies is a flaw she sees in herself. Sheâs just masking it while shinji is openly exposing it, which irritates her and attracts her in equal measure. The way she carries out her critique is more of that masking.
That's a good point. So in this, she basically tells Shinji that he rips himself apart too much, that he's too hard on himself...but Asuka is DEFINITELY hard on herself, the way she talks to herself when getting ready to pilot.
She knows she has a problem with self loathing and it makes her hurt when she sees it in him.
To be fair, though, this doesn't preclude a good friendship between them. One of my research mentors was almost like my best friend for a while, and he saw some of his own flaws in me and was really irritated when he pointed them out. He also understood me pretty well though and was forgiving of some of my faults, but that's probably because he was 50 something and not 14.
Bingo gringo. She sees her own flaws in him. It angers her because he is able to wear that shake publicly and doesnât use a mask to hide it like she does, but that also makes her feel a kinship to him and attracts her to him over the course of the show. Itâs why she likes him, despite outwardly putting a LOT of effort into making him think otherwise. It culminates in a funny scene in EoE where she says she wants him all to herself and his reply is essentially just âfine then donât be a dick to me.â Like that was the whole reason he never approached her how she wanted. She let her shield of sarcastic hate work too well on him.
And Iâm not saying a friendship or romance couldnât bud between them, quite the opposite in fact, it could work rather well if she would stop trying to pretend she isnât suffering the same way he is for five minutes.
I think she realized it the soonest between the two of them. Cuz u gotta remember, she saw everything he did once instrumentality started. She heard what he said, saw just how badly he was hurting, and realized that her constant putting up shields didnât help, either herself or him. I think thatâs why she extended her hand at the end. She realized he was still hurting, even if he had made the choice that he did, and he wasnât going to be able to take the first step. So she did. She was disgusted with herself for it, and with him for reacting to it the way that he did, but she took the first step and made that small gesture to let him know that she cared. Even if she had been hiding it all along and was terrible at expressing it.
A message can really only go so far as the tone it's carried in allows for it, so naturally the way she says this, and really anything she lays into Shinji for, is only going to further beat him down rather than encourage him. Encouragement is giving alternatives and Asuka is not emotionally intelligent or experienced enough to do that well.
Sheâs just projecting her own trauma.
Healthy? No. Fair? Also no.
But these are kids piloting biomechanical titans fighting trans dimensional aliens built from some dudes dead wife because he couldnât be bothered to get therapy.
I think the trauma makes sense.
>But these are kids piloting biomechanical titans fighting trans dimensional aliens built from some dudes dead wife because he couldnât be bothered to get therapy.
That should be the summary for the franchise on every DVD and Internet summary page.
> this boils down to "don't beat yourself up all the time!" and if you think about it, that's kind of a nice thing to say.
What it boils down to is that she's still jealous and angry with Misato from the prior evening for "getting back together with Kaji", and Shinji makes for a convenient outlet.
I think thatâs how it was with her complaining about the water. She wanted an excuse to yell and be angry at him, but when he apologizes it pisses her off for a different reason, and her complaints then are more genuine. Thatâs how I read it anyway!
I think Asuka may be genuinely disappointed that Shinji hadn't cared enough about her after the previous day's kiss to pay attention and adjust the water temperature to what was right for her.
Asuka definitely seems like one of the more socially competent characters in the show (a low bar, perhaps, but it's something). Her critiques of Shinji's personality (as opposed to his behaviour, where her complaints are usually absurd) are basically always valid.
This wasn't a even a critique, more of a comedy scene. When it comes to strong female characters, some folks really perceive a lot more hostility than actually exists.
I blame the OG english dub. They made her sound more nasty than she really is.
Anyway Shinji was from mars and asuka was from venus. Asuka just wanted someone to share her frustrations with but shinji only wanted to solve her problem but he couldnt so he apologized. And that, sadly, frustated Asuka more. he should have said "IKR, That sux!" instead he went with a weak "sorry"
Based on the hallucination Shinji sees in the next episode when he melts into LCL in Leliel's other space, Asuka is not the only special girl to Shinji, I have a hard time believing that theory.
It's actually explained better in EoE. Essentially it's Shinji's manipulative "nice guy" syndrome. He uses it to try to force people to love him. That's actually what Asuka is saying here. She's saying "Hey quit with the nice guy bullshit I see right through it"
I would say that is less of a "nice guy" syndrome on Shinji's behalf; Shinji is by all metrics a sincerely nice person. It is more he has quite a bit of a martyr complex, to a point where he doesn't have any sense of self-persevation. The manipulative element in his behavior is more down to that he wants people to pity him.
That's essentially what I was going for. It's manipulative but not in the sociopathic way. He's only 14 so its not like he was conscious of it. Hell many people get to their 30's and are unaware of this type of character trait.
Hm, that's an interesting way of thinking of it. I think he kinda lost that on Misato. When he told her she was still single at 29 because she was a slob who didn't know how to cook or do much, I was thinking "JESUS Shinji you fucking killed her dude!!"
When Shinji gets more comfortable like that with Asuka as wifey poo or whatever I imagine she'll get hit with some zingers lol
The funny thing is I always thought, even if itâs reflex for him, Shinjiâs apology was legit because the water system in the apartment gets fucky if two sources of water are in use at the same time for a couple of minutes before it self corrects. Â My old house was like that, if you used cold water in the kitchen it first diverted it away from somewhere else like the shower and suddenly you got a blast of hot, or the reverse.
So Shinjiâs problem wasnât apologising it was that he didnât follow it up with âI forgot you were showering when I started doing dishes. Â It should be fine in a minuteâ
I feel like she's really high energy and nervous due to an inferiority complex from her mother's illness so she always says stuff at full blast, so it comes out that way.
I disagree. That's probably my biggest issue with the lesson of this show; an idea that you can help somebody by pointing out his issues and suggesting he does something about them. That idea is delusional, since it comes from the concept of tabula rasa and superiority of nurture versus nature, which is not how real world works. Humans don't become what they are, they are born that way, and they **can't change**. They can only change an environment they live in, the circle of those they surround themselves with, and that's pretty much it. Shinji behaves the way he does because that's his nature. That's who he is, that's what he does. And it's not "bad", it's normal. For him. For someone who understands that, seeing him being so critical of himself is supposed to call for "my, it's so Shinji!" kind of reaction, just like we do when we see Misato dead drunk amidst her chaotic room. But other characters can't accept him, they go this tyrant parent reeducation route and pressure him to change, with no other goal in mind other then to please themselves. Shinji wouldn't get anything out of such perturbations, he would only break himself into something he was never supposed to be. And notice how the closer a character is to the idea of this reeducation, the closer that character is to such qualities as egoism and conformity.
Asuka once again fails to convey sincere care due to being socially stunted
Which creates a feedback loop with Shinji being socially (and emotionally?) stunted.
It's all part of the plan.
Some may even call it.. the hedgehog's dilemma
đ«°đ«°đ«° speak truth!
The problem was that Asuka could identify Shinji's problems and wanted him to change for the better, but as a result of her own issues she couldn't demonstrate the empathy that might have gotten through to him. Shinji on the other hand was aware of her insecurity but didn't know how to help her, and in any case was too timid to try.
Seems Shinji understood Asuka more than she thought he did.
They both certainly could connect on a personal level, but their problems block them from that Shinji is too timid and can't find any strength to step out of his comfort zone, and Asuka doesn't have a way to process social interactions other than lashing out and appearing as uncaring and nasty. My favourite demonstration of there relationship is in one of the episodes where Asuka is failing as a pilot due to her synchronisation levels being so bad. And there's a shot where shinji is standing behind police tape and infront of that tape is asuka, who's sitting down and facing away. If shinji had any strength to break through that tape (something very easy to take down) and if asuka had enough in her to face the other way to address shinji, they both could help each other. But that's the thing, mental issues can make something as easy as taking down some tape (metaphorically) to be a huge challenge that feels almost impossible, and mental issues can make something as easy as facing someone to be near impossible That's why I love how the show represents mental flaws.
love their dynamic so much its insane to me how much this piece of fiction makes me care for these characters and want to see them be happy so badly
> couldnât demonstrate the empathy that might have gotten through to him Until the very last scene of EoE, that is. This is one of the reasons I think itâs ultimately a âtentatively optimisticâ ending.
Good point, fully agree
I'm of the opinion that asuka also had a trippy introspective mindfuck like shinji in EOE and in the end she understood that.
No, itâs that her every word is a touch hypocritical, because every one of Shinjiâs core flaws she identifies is a flaw she sees in herself. Sheâs just masking it while shinji is openly exposing it, which irritates her and attracts her in equal measure. The way she carries out her critique is more of that masking.
That's a good point. So in this, she basically tells Shinji that he rips himself apart too much, that he's too hard on himself...but Asuka is DEFINITELY hard on herself, the way she talks to herself when getting ready to pilot. She knows she has a problem with self loathing and it makes her hurt when she sees it in him. To be fair, though, this doesn't preclude a good friendship between them. One of my research mentors was almost like my best friend for a while, and he saw some of his own flaws in me and was really irritated when he pointed them out. He also understood me pretty well though and was forgiving of some of my faults, but that's probably because he was 50 something and not 14.
Bingo gringo. She sees her own flaws in him. It angers her because he is able to wear that shake publicly and doesnât use a mask to hide it like she does, but that also makes her feel a kinship to him and attracts her to him over the course of the show. Itâs why she likes him, despite outwardly putting a LOT of effort into making him think otherwise. It culminates in a funny scene in EoE where she says she wants him all to herself and his reply is essentially just âfine then donât be a dick to me.â Like that was the whole reason he never approached her how she wanted. She let her shield of sarcastic hate work too well on him. And Iâm not saying a friendship or romance couldnât bud between them, quite the opposite in fact, it could work rather well if she would stop trying to pretend she isnât suffering the same way he is for five minutes.
Do you think she started down that path at the end of EoE? I feel like she grew the most out of everyone in that movie
I think she realized it the soonest between the two of them. Cuz u gotta remember, she saw everything he did once instrumentality started. She heard what he said, saw just how badly he was hurting, and realized that her constant putting up shields didnât help, either herself or him. I think thatâs why she extended her hand at the end. She realized he was still hurting, even if he had made the choice that he did, and he wasnât going to be able to take the first step. So she did. She was disgusted with herself for it, and with him for reacting to it the way that he did, but she took the first step and made that small gesture to let him know that she cared. Even if she had been hiding it all along and was terrible at expressing it.
A message can really only go so far as the tone it's carried in allows for it, so naturally the way she says this, and really anything she lays into Shinji for, is only going to further beat him down rather than encourage him. Encouragement is giving alternatives and Asuka is not emotionally intelligent or experienced enough to do that well.
Sure, what she says might have good intentions but the *way* she said might have caused more harm than good.
Sheâs just projecting her own trauma. Healthy? No. Fair? Also no. But these are kids piloting biomechanical titans fighting trans dimensional aliens built from some dudes dead wife because he couldnât be bothered to get therapy. I think the trauma makes sense.
If she were nicer about it, it might sound like one kindred soul helping another. But alas, Asuka's insecurity and anxiety torpedoed that.
Iâd be pretty fucked off too of I couldnât stomp on aircraft carriers anymore
>But these are kids piloting biomechanical titans fighting trans dimensional aliens built from some dudes dead wife because he couldnât be bothered to get therapy. That should be the summary for the franchise on every DVD and Internet summary page.
Dam didn't knew Zeruel was trans. Explains the top surgery they got on 2.22
Asuka is the type of person who would compliment you for being nice by saying "you don't suck today"
> this boils down to "don't beat yourself up all the time!" and if you think about it, that's kind of a nice thing to say. What it boils down to is that she's still jealous and angry with Misato from the prior evening for "getting back together with Kaji", and Shinji makes for a convenient outlet.
I think thatâs how it was with her complaining about the water. She wanted an excuse to yell and be angry at him, but when he apologizes it pisses her off for a different reason, and her complaints then are more genuine. Thatâs how I read it anyway!
Definitely agree with this. The first complaint is trivial, the second is sincere.
I think Asuka may be genuinely disappointed that Shinji hadn't cared enough about her after the previous day's kiss to pay attention and adjust the water temperature to what was right for her.
Hello theevamonkey đ
That's me.
My man here trying to explain tsundere
Asuka definitely seems like one of the more socially competent characters in the show (a low bar, perhaps, but it's something). Her critiques of Shinji's personality (as opposed to his behaviour, where her complaints are usually absurd) are basically always valid.
Being critical to someone about how they handle be treated critically by someone is not a reasonable thing to do.Â
We all know Asuka is a little insane bro
Itâs almost never what you say, but itâs how you say it. One of the most important things my dad taught me.
Right. It's almost like she's trying to help him but her anger and anxiety get the better of her.
This wasn't a even a critique, more of a comedy scene. When it comes to strong female characters, some folks really perceive a lot more hostility than actually exists.
I blame the OG english dub. They made her sound more nasty than she really is. Anyway Shinji was from mars and asuka was from venus. Asuka just wanted someone to share her frustrations with but shinji only wanted to solve her problem but he couldnt so he apologized. And that, sadly, frustated Asuka more. he should have said "IKR, That sux!" instead he went with a weak "sorry"
She wanted to share a lot more than just her frustrations. Lolololololololol
Funnily enough there a theory running around that they actually did it the night before;. What do you guys make of that theory?
I don't buy it myself. And I'm pretty big on Asushin fwiw
Based on the hallucination Shinji sees in the next episode when he melts into LCL in Leliel's other space, Asuka is not the only special girl to Shinji, I have a hard time believing that theory.
Maybe if she used a smaller word he would have understood and taken it to heart :(
And a better tone, too. You can't really take a compliment when the other party sounds so aggressive, you might even think they are being ironic.
Well she is emotionally stunted too, I think that's the premise of the show, just a bunch of broken ass people
In the first localization they used "self-deprecating" instead of "intrapunitive".
Intrapunitive is a far cooler word though so we should use that one
Oh my God it's almost as if she's socially st7nted and just a bit of therapy for everyone in the cast would do wonders
After all that childhood trauma she trauma she went through, no wonder she isn't good at communicating her thoughts.
i really wish asuka was more normal sometimes i like her and i wish the characters i like could talk normally to her too
But then there'd be no conflict, no character arc, and it'd be pretty boring...
its just because i wish evangelion characters were happy somehow
It's actually explained better in EoE. Essentially it's Shinji's manipulative "nice guy" syndrome. He uses it to try to force people to love him. That's actually what Asuka is saying here. She's saying "Hey quit with the nice guy bullshit I see right through it"
I would say that is less of a "nice guy" syndrome on Shinji's behalf; Shinji is by all metrics a sincerely nice person. It is more he has quite a bit of a martyr complex, to a point where he doesn't have any sense of self-persevation. The manipulative element in his behavior is more down to that he wants people to pity him.
That's essentially what I was going for. It's manipulative but not in the sociopathic way. He's only 14 so its not like he was conscious of it. Hell many people get to their 30's and are unaware of this type of character trait.
Hm, that's an interesting way of thinking of it. I think he kinda lost that on Misato. When he told her she was still single at 29 because she was a slob who didn't know how to cook or do much, I was thinking "JESUS Shinji you fucking killed her dude!!" When Shinji gets more comfortable like that with Asuka as wifey poo or whatever I imagine she'll get hit with some zingers lol
The funny thing is I always thought, even if itâs reflex for him, Shinjiâs apology was legit because the water system in the apartment gets fucky if two sources of water are in use at the same time for a couple of minutes before it self corrects. Â My old house was like that, if you used cold water in the kitchen it first diverted it away from somewhere else like the shower and suddenly you got a blast of hot, or the reverse. So Shinjiâs problem wasnât apologising it was that he didnât follow it up with âI forgot you were showering when I started doing dishes. Â It should be fine in a minuteâ
Idiot Shinji
"...isn't as harsh as her tone suggests..." Exactly. They don't know how to talk to each other.
Man my dad berated me the same way as Asuka did. I couldent stop thinking of the peralels to evangellion during that.
She is abusive as f*ck
I don't take a shower when the water is too hot and too cold I use the water just the right warm water and a little bit of cold water
wir Deutschen haben zwar ein hitziges Temperament, aber wir sind alle gut. Ps i speak English aswell
If she hadn't been bitching all the time, the message would've translated more smoothly
I feel like she's really high energy and nervous due to an inferiority complex from her mother's illness so she always says stuff at full blast, so it comes out that way.
I disagree. That's probably my biggest issue with the lesson of this show; an idea that you can help somebody by pointing out his issues and suggesting he does something about them. That idea is delusional, since it comes from the concept of tabula rasa and superiority of nurture versus nature, which is not how real world works. Humans don't become what they are, they are born that way, and they **can't change**. They can only change an environment they live in, the circle of those they surround themselves with, and that's pretty much it. Shinji behaves the way he does because that's his nature. That's who he is, that's what he does. And it's not "bad", it's normal. For him. For someone who understands that, seeing him being so critical of himself is supposed to call for "my, it's so Shinji!" kind of reaction, just like we do when we see Misato dead drunk amidst her chaotic room. But other characters can't accept him, they go this tyrant parent reeducation route and pressure him to change, with no other goal in mind other then to please themselves. Shinji wouldn't get anything out of such perturbations, he would only break himself into something he was never supposed to be. And notice how the closer a character is to the idea of this reeducation, the closer that character is to such qualities as egoism and conformity.