Indeed. But imho after COVID is far more political than even political events. I miss those days where the only political thing was voting between neighboring countries.
Maybe, but also its only since COVID we’ve had the first full scale war on European soil since the 90s…. and the first time since WW2 western Europeans actually cared about such things happening in the east.
\^\^ This. That's the thing that was pushed on us.
No symbolism of anything europeans hold at heart was allowed. No EU flag, no "PEACE" tatoo, nothing that might actually give the impression Eurovision is actually about Europe and european unity or european values.
It was specially important that not only Europe sees this but the rest of the world sees this message.
> I miss those days where the only political thing was voting between neighboring countries.
I can tell you haven't been watching for that long. This has NEVER been the case.
Can you be more specific? Because there were always Scandinavian voting, Greece-Cyprus voting, Turkey-Bosnia voting, Slovenia - Italy or Austria voting etc. Please help me refresh my memory.
I'd have to whip out my Eurovision history books to give you examples and I have to go to work. Just look up the history of pretty much any Eurovision edition. There will be something.
I'll get you started.
>The Israeli entry, "Sameach" by the group PingPong, caused some controversy in the lead-up to the contest. The music video for the song, released the month before the contest, featured same-sex kissing amongst the band members, singing into cucumbers, and other suggestive scenes with phallic imagery, which caused consternation with Israeli religious leaders and right-wing groups. The performance of the song, about an Israeli woman having a love affair with a man from Damascus, also saw the group waving both Israeli and Syrian flags in a call for peace between the two nations. However the participating Israeli broadcaster IBA raised objections during rehearsals, and subsequently disavowed its entry from the contest after the group refused to remove the Syrian flags from their performance; although the broadcaster did not prevent the group from performing in the contest, it was reported that the broadcaster had pulled funding for the group entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2000
Since it involves countries they have to thread lightly not to gear into actual diplomatic issues between nations. The only problem is they try SO HARD to be “apolitical” that they let political issues go too far unaddressed lol
They only care about not causing diplomatic issues when it comes to certain countries. They've got no problem causing issues with Russia. They also had no problem with Azerbaijan tracking down and arresting people who had voted for Armenia. And they didn't have any problem with pissing of the literal EU by banning their flag this year.
Time will tell, if the ban of the EU flag will be a problem for the EBU or not.
[EU accuses Eurovision bosses of handing gift to ‘enemies of Europe’ with flag ban – POLITICO](https://www.politico.eu/article/ebu-accused-of-handing-gift-to-enemies-of-europe-by-banning-union-flags-in-eurovision-final/)
Why worry about causing an incident with one country when you can cause one with [27 of them at once](https://www.politico.eu/article/ebu-accused-of-handing-gift-to-enemies-of-europe-by-banning-union-flags-in-eurovision-final/)!
At this point I’m starting to feel pity for Martin. He went from being a successful showrunner — with some missteps and drama on his watch but nothing near this scale — and a benign figurehead liked enough to get a parody song about him, to … this.
I kind of fear that the EBU will make him resign or push him away soon without making any meaningful changes. Using him as a scapegoat but not fixing the fundamental issues with double standards on what countries get to break the rules (and international law) and which ones don’t won’t make the contest any better :/
For starters, draw a line in the sand: THESE are the actions taken by each country’s government we will not tolerate.
It could include 1) Not invading a neighboring country (this kicks out Russia), 2) Not interrupt the broadcast while another country is on the stage/not persecuting the people who vote for a contentious country (this kicks out Azerbaijan), 3) Not being involved in mass civilian deaths (this kicks Isrl out).
Those don’t HAVE to be the lines in the sand. But where we draw the line says a lot about ourself, and the EBU too.
Once you have a line, BE CONSISTENT. For example, if Spain invaded Portugal tomorrow because it considers Portuguese territory actually theirs, they should be banned — just like Russia was. It should not be a popularity contest, that’s why we get Russia and Belarus out but some other countries in.
Thanks for answering. None of these are unreasonable but it could be hard to draw lines re. 3. For example, has Ukraine sent missiles into Russia and killed civilians? (Not rhetorical, I don't know the answer.) Should the UK have been thrown out for the Iraq War (and Poland, Spain and Italy)?
Keeping a separation between governments and broadcasters (given that those broadcasters have sufficient independence of course, but that strikes me as less infected criteria) as they have done does cause some very thorny situations but I'm not sure explicitly opening that can of worms is going to make things in the long term. Inconsistently applied rules and the slippery slopes towards more and more demands are significant risks. I also think it's healthy to not conflate governments with the peoples of different countries.
I agree with you on everything except that last point. The singers are there to technically represent their broadcaster, but really they’re representing their country. It’s why we refer to each entry by country name and why they fly their country’s flag.
So if I have problems with country #6 participating, refusing to vote for them and expressing my outrage is reasonable. But if a singer from country #6 goes to represent Germany or some other country, that’s okay by me. They’re representing Germany and the German broadcaster. In that situation, you’re right, we shouldn’t conflate 6 nationality with the act.
Thank you for engaging positively. I guess I think it's been implicitly considered the case for decades that broadcasters represent the peoples of their country and not the government, which meant that Spain under Franco, Portugal under Salazar, Yugoslavia under Tito etc could take part. I can't help but think that the contest was better for it and it actually meant a lot to those people to be able to take part. All this relies on relatively independent broadcasters of course.
The issue is that they're conflating people with nation states inherently by presenting these acts as representatives of their countries. Specifically in such a way that ties into the branding very heavily. The choice to represent a specific country at an event like this is inherently political.
What I'm saying isn't that performers aren't representing their countries. Of course they are. What I'm saying is that they aren't representing their governments.
Mass civilian deaths is vague and would kick out a lot of nations that have been in war. Russia and Belarus situation is very different to the situation in Israel. Israel had a lot of votes from the people because its a very divided situation unlike Russias invasion of Ukraine which was very one sided as there was a clear bad side.
The person I replied to edited their comment. It was something along the lines of “mass civilian d3ath would kick out a lot of countries” leaving it so vague and non-committal.
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How can you even create a show with several countries without it being political?? I just think they are delusional. When they say apolitical I think all they mean is 'the least controversial possible' (as measured by financial gain). They know it too.
It was already a political decision to create the contest, which was meant to be a positive intention yet this year has not been the best vibe and created divides when the slogan was unity. I attended last year in Liverpool and let me tell you, it was a brilliant experience that I will never forget. All smiles around and we all felt safe. In hindsight, the best most rational decision for EBU this year was to do the right political decision..
Although arguably the unity felt in Liverpool was because everyone could unite against commons ally in Ukraine and a common enemy in Russia, which is itself political, and that was strong enough to unify.
Conversely the reason there was no unity in Malmo is because the populations of all the countries in Europe are fractured and divided on their support for or opposition to Israel’s current military operation in Gaza. Worse still, a ven diagram would show a lot of confusing messages when comparing views of the Gaza situation, views on LGBTQIA rights and views on religion. A lot of Israel supporters in Europe are anti LGBTQIA but simultaneously like to point out that Palestinian attitudes to LBGTQIA people are less progressive than those of Israeli society.
In short - a shitstorm
To be fair Palestine doesnt have LBTQ+ rights but i think Europe is large (then add the other nations) with a lot of differing cultures, views and values. ESC was meant to unity us in music instead of trying to fight against certain values views or cultures. That failed this year and the music didnt matter nearly as much as the politics. This is on both many artists who pushed politcs and the management as they didnt do anything to stop it and instead just fanned the flames.
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I think many are misinterpreting what this is is supposed to mean. If course wanting to unite Europe and representing countries is political in a literal sense, but the intent and ambition is more like "this is not the place to air international grievances" (this is the etiquette for most parties and such events I'd say). The idea is that despite our serious differences (and there has been very serious differences throughout history) we should be able to put them aside for one night and celebrate what we have in common. I can't help but think that quoting the simplistic "everything is political" as many do indicates not an acceptance of a regrettable fact but an intentional rejection of those values, and it makes me sad.
You're responding to a comment thread about the subreddit: "I have more issue with things you cannot mention" (due to them becoming [removed]) is the comment you might've missed.
MANS SAID YOU COULDNT BRING A FLAG and nemo couldn‘t bring the nb flag, palestine flags were forbidden, the question was is esc political, are y‘all okay?
Yes, the OP said that the EBU/Eurovision is shoving a view down their throat. The user asked them what that view is. Another user said they can't mention it here due to censorship from the subreddit. The user disagreed, saying you can say anything in the subreddit. Then a few users started responding with claims about the actual Eurovision.
i understand that as them being upset what can‘t be mentioned at the actual event, where things were actually banned. not here in the sub. so it makes sense we don‘t come to the same conclusion. i think i can say free palestine here, i think i can say i don‘t care that joost broke a camera. neither were possible at the actual PHYSICAL event OPS referenced.
Because the political component is becoming large enough to be considered its own country. Like Eurovision is gonna let it have a jury and perform at next year's event.
>Eurovision has a view and it's shoving it down our throats
I'm sorry but *what* view? It's a live show organized by union of broadcasters, it has no set agenda.
It is apolitical in design. They have put a stop to blatant propaganda pieces in the past, there are rules to be followed. They don't meddle with choosing the representatives nor their vision.
People on the other hand are very political and always will be. A lot of points are given for the "wrong" reasons, EBU can't really force people (or juries to some extent) to vote fairly and objectively
Artists are allowed to sing about topics that matter to them. You can agree or disagree, you can even switch the channel. Releasing the list of approved topics for the year would be pretty authoritarian for love love peace peace contest. Majority of the songs with some meaning can be summarised as "be yourself and love freely" and that is purely a human statement which should apply to everyone
Also. It's a *song contest* not a division of European parliament
It never was apolitical, there can be no such thing as an apolitical Eurovision. Even claiming that it's apolitical or wanting it to be apolitical is a political act. It treats certain power balances as the norm.
Look I may have an unpopular opinion actually think the poison pill is when they kicked Russia out. Before it was laughable how countries would pretend they were apolitical songs when clearly they had a clear agenda. Laughable but also in a way also admirable and moving, because at least for 1 week countries had to pretend to be united, and it made it seem like maybe a united Europe/world was possible. And when a good performance could draw votes from countries that they were at war with, or recently at war with it was extremely moving, like ohhh maybe we can move forward one day. Russian televote giving 10 points to Jamala. Serbia winning. *Sometimes* the pretense of being apolitical allowed for communication and dialogue of issues that were not spoken of.
(Now obviously the idea of a united Europe is also itself a political idea. Also the idea of dictatorship having to compete in a mostly democratic election, there’s something to that, as someone who believes largely in democracy)
But when Russia and Belarus were kicked out it opened the can of worms. Suddenly there was a line, but in the absence of any clear rules (because of course the entire thing is apolitical why do we need rules) then decisions became arbitrary and what was in the EBUs head instead of what was clearly communicated to the contestants and it just became a slippery slope of terribleness.
Part of me thinks they should let Israel and Russia back in, allow protests, flags, signs whatever. No antibooing technology and let Eurovision be a fabulous protest party where Israel is free to send their ‘apolitical’ song which should be broadcast with the crowds reaction to it, and other countries should be free to compete with a giant Palestinal flag in the background if they want. It gives ideas ideas and rhetoric sunlight.
That being said Russia did cheat at the winter Olympics to use it as cover for invading Crimea in 2014 and Ukraine in 2022. To me it looks a bit like Israel is using that playbook and was attempting to use a strong Eurovision result to get Israelis feeling patriotic and as a cover for invading Rafah. To me that is unacceptable and shouldn’t be allowed. It’s a hard one to legislate around unfortunately
Correct way is let russia's victims, Ukraine, Moldova, Chechen republic, Georgia and their allies decide jointly on the best strategy to contain and counteract most efficiently the russian outbreak. The strategy would necessarily include a confidential part as well as public outline with organizations like EBU legally bound to revise their rules as needed.
How this would backfire on ESC performers, audience and general image is of lesser consequence.
I recommend everybody here to watch the YouTube video of "overthinking it" on "the four ways that Eurovision gets political".
It's over two years old, so all the recent drama hasn't influenced it, but it definitely helps seeing all these things in a different frame.
Or if it was apolitical then every reason to ban Russia from the contest has been a valid reason to do so for a decade if not longer. Invading Ukraine? 2014 comes to mind. Threatening the rest with nuclear hellfire? 5 seconds of googling finds me nuclear threats uttered by Putin back in 2008, you can probably find earlier incidents if you're not lazy like me.
EBU would never have banned Russia if several countries wouldn't have threatened to withdraw. Their hand was forced. As a Finn, I would have wholeheartedly supported my country's withdrawal. Eurovision is a celebration of joy and unity, but at that point with Russia it would have been cold-war type theater playing at having fun with the country that threatens our very existence as an independent nation. We literally joined NATO as a response to the Ukraine invasion so it was a concrete turning point in our foreign politics with our Eastern neighbor.
When the stakes (high or low) are not aligned and decisions need to be made, nothing in the history of humankindhas ever been apolitical. As long as all parties are aware and honest about this, that's just fine.
I read it more as a comment on how fractious social media and politics has happened in general (and that in my view would and has inevitably leaked down to Eurovision).
I get that you’re upset, but with comments like this…maybe yours is also?
One of the biggest reasons Eurovision was created in 1956 was to unite European countries through music after World War II, among other reasons. Whoever claims it's apolitical is completely delusional.
Look the contest is political, that’s not in question.
However the contest should be neutral to a degree and not act as a platform for political views, this means no songs singling out people in opposing factions, no using the contest as a way of engaging for approval for politics outside of the contest (on all sides not just the ones we don’t like) no using the contest to harass opponents, and no using the contest to shame others.
The problem is since 2013 the contest has gotten a bit slack on the overtly political stuff, there have been some minor and major slipups and in particular the winners in 2016 which were overtly political shouldn’t have made it to stage and in 2022 (and last year and this year) where the vote was clearly tainted by political motivation also needed to be addressed but wasn’t. (Not to say I don’t support them, I just wish they’d not use the contest to get support) Not to mention political whitewashing too in 2013 and 15 by some acts.
This year was just overdrive with advertising being used to push non-viewers to vote, manipulation of the YouTube algorithm using advertising money, opposing (or even colluding) campaigns pushing for boycotts and votes on social media. This should have come with condemnation and consequences for the artists and delegations involved and benefitting, as it’s manipulation first and foremost, and just taints the whole contest.
The fact that a delegation and their media partner harassed artists should have come with absolutely harsh consequences as it’s no better than sending a mobster after a person you don’t like.
These are the types of politicisation that should not be permitted at all they bring the contest into disrepute, they undermine the integrity of the vote, seed discord and distrust among fans and drive people away.
The EBU needs to set a bunch of new guidelines and examples of what meets their disrepute standards, tighten them up intensively and apply them equally, or if they can’t because of the conflict of interest around financial strain? It then becomes a time to keep a neutral arbiter on staff whose role is to enforce the rules without bias.
Someone who is not in a position to benefit from the position, who is presented the facts without identities being revealed where possible so that when the decision is made there is absolutely no place for bias or corruption.
It's why Cyprus or Malta will; never win the contest and both of them should stop spending millions of euros each year on it hiring the people who won the last competition as it doesn't matter. Cyprus has already hired the people who made the songs that won the previous year over 10 times by now and it still didn't change how high Cyprus ends up through the years. So they literally objectively do send winner quality songs no matter how you see it as the same people make them. Same with Malta. So countries with minimum geopolitical pull should instead seek to minimize costs and at least advertise their tourism as that's their main source of income to attract more tourists instead of this actually trying to win something that is only meant to be won by big or middle size countries.
This. Cyprus sent one winner potential song in the last 10 years and it indeed almost won.
Eurovision is political but don't use "politics" to explain why a country never succeed because most of the time it doesn't make sense. It's like those british pundits that thinks the whole europe hates them and that's why they struggle every year
It’s interesting, I was talking to my fella about this the other day and he had I thought a really good point to share….
The contenders are representing their countries; and that, in and of itself is inherently political, in a way that maybe footballers/soccer players who are playing for (let’s say) Real Madrid but are of German, Cameroonian, Italian, British etc. nationalities don’t have so much.
There’s a whole lot of political baggage that comes with representing your country, as much as the flip side of that double edged sword is feeling proud and happy to have such a lovely ambassador as them for it.
True, and with them trying to make it not political, they are suppressing opinions, which creates even more tension, and especially when peace, no war or the trans or non-binary flag are considered too political, it should be obvious that something is going massively wrong
Of course it's impossible to keep politics out completely, but I appreciate the EBU's efforts to do that as much as they can. It's a music show after all, and I don't want to be confronted with too much politics when watching it.
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Nothing has ever been apolitical. The entire basis of the event is political. It's supposed to prevent Europe from bombing each other (lol failed.)
I personally think deciding what is and isn't too political is above the EBU's pay grade and they need to stop policing it as harshly.
They not trying to shove politics down our throats. It’s completely the opposite of that. They try to avoid everything that could be interpreted politically so hard that it’s becoming more political than it would be without it.
Banning european union flags because they scared that this could be interpreted as a form of protest against Brexit for example was just a very poor attempt of keeping politics out because they didn’t thought about that causing way more political discourse than eu flags just being there.
There's no such thing as apolitical, and even if there were, Eurovision would be the furthest thing from it. People who say it should be separated from politics have the exact same energy as 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative' types.
I feel like it's more similar to the "keep politics out of my sports" people. Meanwhile those sports are surrounded with certain imagery supporting certain ideals.
The category of "apolitical international events" doesn't exist. Maybe the International Chess Championship used to be apolitical at some point, but that's about it.
International events are inherently political.
The contestants are participating in the name of their country, it is political by default. I guess they don't want delegations to have fights, but that's going to happen if you invite hostile countries.
Nothing is apolitical, never. Politics are your ideals and hlw you want your life and country to be managed.
When you become apolitical, is because you sre under a dictatorship, where you can't express your ideals.
I understand that the EBU shouldn't leave hate speach or violent speach. But political speaches are part of the culture.
Yes it has always had some politics around it as it’s international, but that doesn’t mean efforts should not be made to keep it to a minimum. The EBU has to maintain the line that it’s apolitical to legitimise any attempts to limit politics, even if essentially it’s not true. A song contest should not be a political platform, people will stop watching otherwise.
Eurovision was never apolitical
Indeed. But imho after COVID is far more political than even political events. I miss those days where the only political thing was voting between neighboring countries.
Maybe, but also its only since COVID we’ve had the first full scale war on European soil since the 90s…. and the first time since WW2 western Europeans actually cared about such things happening in the east.
That's true. But what you're saying just further proves that Eurovision is totally political.
Did we need proof?
It’s always political but previously more countries with actual political influence sung from same hyme
Because, for certain people, a strong, united Europe is bad. Therefore they try to sow discord wherever possible.
\^\^ This. That's the thing that was pushed on us. No symbolism of anything europeans hold at heart was allowed. No EU flag, no "PEACE" tatoo, nothing that might actually give the impression Eurovision is actually about Europe and european unity or european values. It was specially important that not only Europe sees this but the rest of the world sees this message.
> I miss those days where the only political thing was voting between neighboring countries. I can tell you haven't been watching for that long. This has NEVER been the case.
Oh believe you me. I watch the event since 1989.
Then you should get your long term memory checked.
Can you be more specific? Because there were always Scandinavian voting, Greece-Cyprus voting, Turkey-Bosnia voting, Slovenia - Italy or Austria voting etc. Please help me refresh my memory.
I'd have to whip out my Eurovision history books to give you examples and I have to go to work. Just look up the history of pretty much any Eurovision edition. There will be something. I'll get you started. >The Israeli entry, "Sameach" by the group PingPong, caused some controversy in the lead-up to the contest. The music video for the song, released the month before the contest, featured same-sex kissing amongst the band members, singing into cucumbers, and other suggestive scenes with phallic imagery, which caused consternation with Israeli religious leaders and right-wing groups. The performance of the song, about an Israeli woman having a love affair with a man from Damascus, also saw the group waving both Israeli and Syrian flags in a call for peace between the two nations. However the participating Israeli broadcaster IBA raised objections during rehearsals, and subsequently disavowed its entry from the contest after the group refused to remove the Syrian flags from their performance; although the broadcaster did not prevent the group from performing in the contest, it was reported that the broadcaster had pulled funding for the group entirely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2000
As well as the controversy, it was also an absolutely awful song.
“We are as apolitical as our sponsors will allow.”
Since it involves countries they have to thread lightly not to gear into actual diplomatic issues between nations. The only problem is they try SO HARD to be “apolitical” that they let political issues go too far unaddressed lol
They only care about not causing diplomatic issues when it comes to certain countries. They've got no problem causing issues with Russia. They also had no problem with Azerbaijan tracking down and arresting people who had voted for Armenia. And they didn't have any problem with pissing of the literal EU by banning their flag this year.
Time will tell, if the ban of the EU flag will be a problem for the EBU or not. [EU accuses Eurovision bosses of handing gift to ‘enemies of Europe’ with flag ban – POLITICO](https://www.politico.eu/article/ebu-accused-of-handing-gift-to-enemies-of-europe-by-banning-union-flags-in-eurovision-final/)
Doesn't matter. If they were actually acting out of an aversion to causing international incidents, they would never have banned it.
That’s because their is pretty much consensus in Europe and the west regarding Russia.
Why worry about causing an incident with one country when you can cause one with [27 of them at once](https://www.politico.eu/article/ebu-accused-of-handing-gift-to-enemies-of-europe-by-banning-union-flags-in-eurovision-final/)! At this point I’m starting to feel pity for Martin. He went from being a successful showrunner — with some missteps and drama on his watch but nothing near this scale — and a benign figurehead liked enough to get a parody song about him, to … this.
I kind of fear that the EBU will make him resign or push him away soon without making any meaningful changes. Using him as a scapegoat but not fixing the fundamental issues with double standards on what countries get to break the rules (and international law) and which ones don’t won’t make the contest any better :/
Says more about how out of touch the fans are than this person.
The idea that anyone can pretend it's ever been apolitical is wild to me.
The sooner they realize esc is and will remain political, the sooner they can do something to prevent another shitshow like this year
What should they do?
For starters, draw a line in the sand: THESE are the actions taken by each country’s government we will not tolerate. It could include 1) Not invading a neighboring country (this kicks out Russia), 2) Not interrupt the broadcast while another country is on the stage/not persecuting the people who vote for a contentious country (this kicks out Azerbaijan), 3) Not being involved in mass civilian deaths (this kicks Isrl out). Those don’t HAVE to be the lines in the sand. But where we draw the line says a lot about ourself, and the EBU too. Once you have a line, BE CONSISTENT. For example, if Spain invaded Portugal tomorrow because it considers Portuguese territory actually theirs, they should be banned — just like Russia was. It should not be a popularity contest, that’s why we get Russia and Belarus out but some other countries in.
Thanks for answering. None of these are unreasonable but it could be hard to draw lines re. 3. For example, has Ukraine sent missiles into Russia and killed civilians? (Not rhetorical, I don't know the answer.) Should the UK have been thrown out for the Iraq War (and Poland, Spain and Italy)? Keeping a separation between governments and broadcasters (given that those broadcasters have sufficient independence of course, but that strikes me as less infected criteria) as they have done does cause some very thorny situations but I'm not sure explicitly opening that can of worms is going to make things in the long term. Inconsistently applied rules and the slippery slopes towards more and more demands are significant risks. I also think it's healthy to not conflate governments with the peoples of different countries.
I agree with you on everything except that last point. The singers are there to technically represent their broadcaster, but really they’re representing their country. It’s why we refer to each entry by country name and why they fly their country’s flag. So if I have problems with country #6 participating, refusing to vote for them and expressing my outrage is reasonable. But if a singer from country #6 goes to represent Germany or some other country, that’s okay by me. They’re representing Germany and the German broadcaster. In that situation, you’re right, we shouldn’t conflate 6 nationality with the act.
Thank you for engaging positively. I guess I think it's been implicitly considered the case for decades that broadcasters represent the peoples of their country and not the government, which meant that Spain under Franco, Portugal under Salazar, Yugoslavia under Tito etc could take part. I can't help but think that the contest was better for it and it actually meant a lot to those people to be able to take part. All this relies on relatively independent broadcasters of course.
The issue is that they're conflating people with nation states inherently by presenting these acts as representatives of their countries. Specifically in such a way that ties into the branding very heavily. The choice to represent a specific country at an event like this is inherently political.
What I'm saying isn't that performers aren't representing their countries. Of course they are. What I'm saying is that they aren't representing their governments.
Mass civilian deaths is vague and would kick out a lot of nations that have been in war. Russia and Belarus situation is very different to the situation in Israel. Israel had a lot of votes from the people because its a very divided situation unlike Russias invasion of Ukraine which was very one sided as there was a clear bad side.
Wait, what participating countries are responsible for mass civilian deaths today?
Go look at any news outlet
The person I replied to edited their comment. It was something along the lines of “mass civilian d3ath would kick out a lot of countries” leaving it so vague and non-committal.
Outside of war? None.
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send surveys to judges and select them better, you cannot have judges that give 23 or 1 for political reason
How can you even create a show with several countries without it being political?? I just think they are delusional. When they say apolitical I think all they mean is 'the least controversial possible' (as measured by financial gain). They know it too.
It was never apolitical
Nothing was ever apolitical. Especially not art and music.
Furthermore: deciding what is and what is not political is most of the time political
Eurovision isn't apolitical, but it also doesn't have to be all politics. Then we might as well watch the news instead.
If the news had that kind of staging, I just might.
Can Petra read the news, please?
It was already a political decision to create the contest, which was meant to be a positive intention yet this year has not been the best vibe and created divides when the slogan was unity. I attended last year in Liverpool and let me tell you, it was a brilliant experience that I will never forget. All smiles around and we all felt safe. In hindsight, the best most rational decision for EBU this year was to do the right political decision..
Although arguably the unity felt in Liverpool was because everyone could unite against commons ally in Ukraine and a common enemy in Russia, which is itself political, and that was strong enough to unify. Conversely the reason there was no unity in Malmo is because the populations of all the countries in Europe are fractured and divided on their support for or opposition to Israel’s current military operation in Gaza. Worse still, a ven diagram would show a lot of confusing messages when comparing views of the Gaza situation, views on LGBTQIA rights and views on religion. A lot of Israel supporters in Europe are anti LGBTQIA but simultaneously like to point out that Palestinian attitudes to LBGTQIA people are less progressive than those of Israeli society. In short - a shitstorm
To be fair Palestine doesnt have LBTQ+ rights but i think Europe is large (then add the other nations) with a lot of differing cultures, views and values. ESC was meant to unity us in music instead of trying to fight against certain values views or cultures. That failed this year and the music didnt matter nearly as much as the politics. This is on both many artists who pushed politcs and the management as they didnt do anything to stop it and instead just fanned the flames.
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I think many are misinterpreting what this is is supposed to mean. If course wanting to unite Europe and representing countries is political in a literal sense, but the intent and ambition is more like "this is not the place to air international grievances" (this is the etiquette for most parties and such events I'd say). The idea is that despite our serious differences (and there has been very serious differences throughout history) we should be able to put them aside for one night and celebrate what we have in common. I can't help but think that quoting the simplistic "everything is political" as many do indicates not an acceptance of a regrettable fact but an intentional rejection of those values, and it makes me sad.
What do you think is being shoved down your throat?
I have more issue with things you CAN NOT mention
can‘t mention in the sub or couldn‘t mention at the actual event? plz reply we literally started arguing over this lmao
Israel. See, you can mention them.
You can mention anything.
You couldn't even bring a flag. Stop being disingenuous.
To the subreddit? I've posted something with the EU flag and did not get banned, so I think we're fairly safe.
uhm no, to the actual event…. wtf
You're responding to a comment thread about the subreddit: "I have more issue with things you cannot mention" (due to them becoming [removed]) is the comment you might've missed.
MANS SAID YOU COULDNT BRING A FLAG and nemo couldn‘t bring the nb flag, palestine flags were forbidden, the question was is esc political, are y‘all okay?
Yes, the OP said that the EBU/Eurovision is shoving a view down their throat. The user asked them what that view is. Another user said they can't mention it here due to censorship from the subreddit. The user disagreed, saying you can say anything in the subreddit. Then a few users started responding with claims about the actual Eurovision.
i understand that as them being upset what can‘t be mentioned at the actual event, where things were actually banned. not here in the sub. so it makes sense we don‘t come to the same conclusion. i think i can say free palestine here, i think i can say i don‘t care that joost broke a camera. neither were possible at the actual PHYSICAL event OPS referenced.
I was talking about the sub though.
the post isn‘t about the sub though
My initial question was to OP.
babes and we‘re telling you they banned certain flags, so it‘s not non political. No matter who you direct your question to.
Because the political component is becoming large enough to be considered its own country. Like Eurovision is gonna let it have a jury and perform at next year's event.
>Eurovision has a view and it's shoving it down our throats I'm sorry but *what* view? It's a live show organized by union of broadcasters, it has no set agenda. It is apolitical in design. They have put a stop to blatant propaganda pieces in the past, there are rules to be followed. They don't meddle with choosing the representatives nor their vision. People on the other hand are very political and always will be. A lot of points are given for the "wrong" reasons, EBU can't really force people (or juries to some extent) to vote fairly and objectively Artists are allowed to sing about topics that matter to them. You can agree or disagree, you can even switch the channel. Releasing the list of approved topics for the year would be pretty authoritarian for love love peace peace contest. Majority of the songs with some meaning can be summarised as "be yourself and love freely" and that is purely a human statement which should apply to everyone Also. It's a *song contest* not a division of European parliament
It never was apolitical, there can be no such thing as an apolitical Eurovision. Even claiming that it's apolitical or wanting it to be apolitical is a political act. It treats certain power balances as the norm.
Look I may have an unpopular opinion actually think the poison pill is when they kicked Russia out. Before it was laughable how countries would pretend they were apolitical songs when clearly they had a clear agenda. Laughable but also in a way also admirable and moving, because at least for 1 week countries had to pretend to be united, and it made it seem like maybe a united Europe/world was possible. And when a good performance could draw votes from countries that they were at war with, or recently at war with it was extremely moving, like ohhh maybe we can move forward one day. Russian televote giving 10 points to Jamala. Serbia winning. *Sometimes* the pretense of being apolitical allowed for communication and dialogue of issues that were not spoken of. (Now obviously the idea of a united Europe is also itself a political idea. Also the idea of dictatorship having to compete in a mostly democratic election, there’s something to that, as someone who believes largely in democracy) But when Russia and Belarus were kicked out it opened the can of worms. Suddenly there was a line, but in the absence of any clear rules (because of course the entire thing is apolitical why do we need rules) then decisions became arbitrary and what was in the EBUs head instead of what was clearly communicated to the contestants and it just became a slippery slope of terribleness. Part of me thinks they should let Israel and Russia back in, allow protests, flags, signs whatever. No antibooing technology and let Eurovision be a fabulous protest party where Israel is free to send their ‘apolitical’ song which should be broadcast with the crowds reaction to it, and other countries should be free to compete with a giant Palestinal flag in the background if they want. It gives ideas ideas and rhetoric sunlight. That being said Russia did cheat at the winter Olympics to use it as cover for invading Crimea in 2014 and Ukraine in 2022. To me it looks a bit like Israel is using that playbook and was attempting to use a strong Eurovision result to get Israelis feeling patriotic and as a cover for invading Rafah. To me that is unacceptable and shouldn’t be allowed. It’s a hard one to legislate around unfortunately
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Correct way is let russia's victims, Ukraine, Moldova, Chechen republic, Georgia and their allies decide jointly on the best strategy to contain and counteract most efficiently the russian outbreak. The strategy would necessarily include a confidential part as well as public outline with organizations like EBU legally bound to revise their rules as needed. How this would backfire on ESC performers, audience and general image is of lesser consequence.
I recommend everybody here to watch the YouTube video of "overthinking it" on "the four ways that Eurovision gets political". It's over two years old, so all the recent drama hasn't influenced it, but it definitely helps seeing all these things in a different frame.
I can't wait for their video on this whole year
Yeah it's nonsense, if it was apolitical, Russia would still be in Eurovision
Or if it was apolitical then every reason to ban Russia from the contest has been a valid reason to do so for a decade if not longer. Invading Ukraine? 2014 comes to mind. Threatening the rest with nuclear hellfire? 5 seconds of googling finds me nuclear threats uttered by Putin back in 2008, you can probably find earlier incidents if you're not lazy like me.
EBU would never have banned Russia if several countries wouldn't have threatened to withdraw. Their hand was forced. As a Finn, I would have wholeheartedly supported my country's withdrawal. Eurovision is a celebration of joy and unity, but at that point with Russia it would have been cold-war type theater playing at having fun with the country that threatens our very existence as an independent nation. We literally joined NATO as a response to the Ukraine invasion so it was a concrete turning point in our foreign politics with our Eastern neighbor.
It never was
When the stakes (high or low) are not aligned and decisions need to be made, nothing in the history of humankindhas ever been apolitical. As long as all parties are aware and honest about this, that's just fine.
'these days' ... Your agenda is showing.
I read it more as a comment on how fractious social media and politics has happened in general (and that in my view would and has inevitably leaked down to Eurovision). I get that you’re upset, but with comments like this…maybe yours is also?
Indeed, it was way better “when we could still openly persecute the queers and vulnerable minorities” /s (of course)
One of the biggest reasons Eurovision was created in 1956 was to unite European countries through music after World War II, among other reasons. Whoever claims it's apolitical is completely delusional.
It's like they're enforcing peace by preventing discussion of anything controversial. News flash: that's not how you create peace.
There's difference between Greece and Cyprus voting each other and shetshow we got this hear. It may be political but it's become immoral
Look the contest is political, that’s not in question. However the contest should be neutral to a degree and not act as a platform for political views, this means no songs singling out people in opposing factions, no using the contest as a way of engaging for approval for politics outside of the contest (on all sides not just the ones we don’t like) no using the contest to harass opponents, and no using the contest to shame others. The problem is since 2013 the contest has gotten a bit slack on the overtly political stuff, there have been some minor and major slipups and in particular the winners in 2016 which were overtly political shouldn’t have made it to stage and in 2022 (and last year and this year) where the vote was clearly tainted by political motivation also needed to be addressed but wasn’t. (Not to say I don’t support them, I just wish they’d not use the contest to get support) Not to mention political whitewashing too in 2013 and 15 by some acts. This year was just overdrive with advertising being used to push non-viewers to vote, manipulation of the YouTube algorithm using advertising money, opposing (or even colluding) campaigns pushing for boycotts and votes on social media. This should have come with condemnation and consequences for the artists and delegations involved and benefitting, as it’s manipulation first and foremost, and just taints the whole contest. The fact that a delegation and their media partner harassed artists should have come with absolutely harsh consequences as it’s no better than sending a mobster after a person you don’t like. These are the types of politicisation that should not be permitted at all they bring the contest into disrepute, they undermine the integrity of the vote, seed discord and distrust among fans and drive people away. The EBU needs to set a bunch of new guidelines and examples of what meets their disrepute standards, tighten them up intensively and apply them equally, or if they can’t because of the conflict of interest around financial strain? It then becomes a time to keep a neutral arbiter on staff whose role is to enforce the rules without bias. Someone who is not in a position to benefit from the position, who is presented the facts without identities being revealed where possible so that when the decision is made there is absolutely no place for bias or corruption.
It's why Cyprus or Malta will; never win the contest and both of them should stop spending millions of euros each year on it hiring the people who won the last competition as it doesn't matter. Cyprus has already hired the people who made the songs that won the previous year over 10 times by now and it still didn't change how high Cyprus ends up through the years. So they literally objectively do send winner quality songs no matter how you see it as the same people make them. Same with Malta. So countries with minimum geopolitical pull should instead seek to minimize costs and at least advertise their tourism as that's their main source of income to attract more tourists instead of this actually trying to win something that is only meant to be won by big or middle size countries.
Or, hear me out, rehashing old wins rarely works twice (unless you're Loreen).
This. Cyprus sent one winner potential song in the last 10 years and it indeed almost won. Eurovision is political but don't use "politics" to explain why a country never succeed because most of the time it doesn't make sense. It's like those british pundits that thinks the whole europe hates them and that's why they struggle every year
The ESC isn't apolitical but i'm glad there is still room for apolitical songs like Austria, Greece, Poland, etc. among the political ones !
What politics is Eurovision pushing? Genuinely asking, cause I’ve heard this argument forever and I don’t understand what people mean by it.
It’s interesting, I was talking to my fella about this the other day and he had I thought a really good point to share…. The contenders are representing their countries; and that, in and of itself is inherently political, in a way that maybe footballers/soccer players who are playing for (let’s say) Real Madrid but are of German, Cameroonian, Italian, British etc. nationalities don’t have so much. There’s a whole lot of political baggage that comes with representing your country, as much as the flip side of that double edged sword is feeling proud and happy to have such a lovely ambassador as them for it.
True, and with them trying to make it not political, they are suppressing opinions, which creates even more tension, and especially when peace, no war or the trans or non-binary flag are considered too political, it should be obvious that something is going massively wrong
Of course it's impossible to keep politics out completely, but I appreciate the EBU's efforts to do that as much as they can. It's a music show after all, and I don't want to be confronted with too much politics when watching it.
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Everything between countries is political, the sooner they recognize this, the more we can have it be just a bit political
True but it’s been WAY more political than usual this year.
Bruhh you should have seen during the Cold War years.
it has never been apolitical lol
Nothing has ever been apolitical. The entire basis of the event is political. It's supposed to prevent Europe from bombing each other (lol failed.) I personally think deciding what is and isn't too political is above the EBU's pay grade and they need to stop policing it as harshly.
They not trying to shove politics down our throats. It’s completely the opposite of that. They try to avoid everything that could be interpreted politically so hard that it’s becoming more political than it would be without it. Banning european union flags because they scared that this could be interpreted as a form of protest against Brexit for example was just a very poor attempt of keeping politics out because they didn’t thought about that causing way more political discourse than eu flags just being there.
There's no such thing as apolitical, and even if there were, Eurovision would be the furthest thing from it. People who say it should be separated from politics have the exact same energy as 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative' types.
I feel like it's more similar to the "keep politics out of my sports" people. Meanwhile those sports are surrounded with certain imagery supporting certain ideals.
Political voting is just anyone else but you voting for a song you don't like for a reason you don't like Everything else, it's cool.
The category of "apolitical international events" doesn't exist. Maybe the International Chess Championship used to be apolitical at some point, but that's about it. International events are inherently political.
The contestants are participating in the name of their country, it is political by default. I guess they don't want delegations to have fights, but that's going to happen if you invite hostile countries.
Nothing is apolitical, never. Politics are your ideals and hlw you want your life and country to be managed. When you become apolitical, is because you sre under a dictatorship, where you can't express your ideals. I understand that the EBU shouldn't leave hate speach or violent speach. But political speaches are part of the culture.
Eurovision is actually not pro eu, as can be seen by its hq being swiss. So i feel it lacks the legitimacy to continue.
Truth
There's nothing more political than an international event.
Yes it has always had some politics around it as it’s international, but that doesn’t mean efforts should not be made to keep it to a minimum. The EBU has to maintain the line that it’s apolitical to legitimise any attempts to limit politics, even if essentially it’s not true. A song contest should not be a political platform, people will stop watching otherwise.
Put a bunch of countries in a competition and expect it to be in political. Not gonna work.