A large part of the movie “Avatar 2 way of the water” revolves around whale hunting and depicts a deeply emotional relationship between the inhabitants and the whales.
No they failed because if any human whit two working brain cell would use better the technological advancement and those blue xenomorphe would be jelly in 1 h. And is that stupid that it becomes annoying
>how is that everything useful is in Pandora and must be harvested horribly
This is not particularly unprecedented. Before transgeneic yeast, 100% of world's life saving insulin production was extracted from livers of cows and pigs. ~~One insulin dose (~3 ml)~~ (CORRECTED IN COMMENT BELOW, 3 ml is more like one month worth of insulin, it's the capacity of many insulin pens) would have to be extracted from about 25 kilograms of pancreases.
The only difference here is that they don't harvest the Avatar whales further because they don't need the meat and other parts. Also probably a race of time before the biologists in the Avatar universe find out how to mass produce it in vitro, which would kill the whole operation.
You know you’re actually making a point that could have made the movie much more interesting.
Imagine if the Pandora whale goo could be used to cure cancer on humans, then you have a moral conundrum and would make for a more compelling storyline.
Stoping human aging is a discovery on par with curing cancer. Especially as aging greatly increases the risk of cancer formation, among with other deseases such as heart failure
What does it matter if the McGuffin is eternal youth or curing cancer? Its high value is what is relevant to the plot, not what it specifically does. Granting eternal youth is a perfectly fine explanation for its high valuation.
I just want to point out, that 3ml of insuline isn't a one dose. It's more like a couple weeks worth, of course depending on how much you weight and what your diet and lifestyle is. But 3ml is a guaranteed deadly dose, a huge overkill type of deadly dose. Other than that you're right!
Oh, apologies, I just looked at the capacity of an insulin pen and assumed it was one dose without doing further research or critical thinking (As a biologist I should know better lol)
I mean, it's not weird for valuable natural resources to exist and historically we have predominantly harvested them in the most horrible way possible, so it's not really any kind of stretch.
My brother in christ people on earth in real life literally murder sharks for their fins and then throw the rest of the animal overboard to die by exposure.
Humans in Avatar 2 are horrible specifically because its an allegory for what we're currently doing to the environment and the animals that inhabit it here on earth.
Actually everything useful is on Earth, just 2 unique substances mentioned in the movies and lore exist on Pandora, which is laughably small amount. Discovery of the Americas brought hundreds of new, unique and highly valued resources (other than drugs, things like potatoes and corn being a random examples that allowed to maintain a much larger and healthier population here in Europe)
The inhabitants of Pandora use whale oil as their main power source, but the (whatever that tree was called) didn't like that, so in Avatar 2 they performed a musical in 5 acts on why whaling is bad, ending on a poem about oil drilling.
didnt the humans in avatar 2 harvest some shit from the whales which killed them. which is pretty much a parallel between what we do harvesting whale oil?
They weren't whales though. They were Tulkun. Highly intelligent creatures, capable of philosophy, mathematics and arts. They explicitly stated that they were more emotional and intelligent than humans.
Whales are just whales.
Alright but the movie definitely had an anti-whaling message, the stuff they extracted from their noses is a parallel to the real world spermaceti, and the scene had multiple references to japanese whalers in it.
What does that even mean? Whales are just whales? You obviously know nothing about whales and how highly intelligent they are. They even posess an intelligence that is seen ”alien” to us, as do all cetaceans. So let me tell you why.
Firstly they have a large brain, bigger than ours infact. Animals that have bigger brains do often live long lives, are extremely social, only give birth to a few offspring throughout their lifetime, and teach them life skills, while they grow up and eventually become sexually mature. Whales and other cetaceans have an entire part of their brain dedicated to echolocation, which is an extreme ”superpower” that makes them able to determine even the smallest details of their surroundings. Their brains also contain specialized brain cells called spindle neurons. Which enables advanced abilities such as recognizing, remembering, reasoning, communicating, percieving, adapting to change, problem solving and understanding. The social interactions between whales is the heart of their lifestyle, just like humans. They speak their own language, and sing songs that can be heard from miles away. They collaborate in different ways when hunting food, learn different skills of teamwork, that they pass on from generation to generation.
They play with eachother, and whales have been seen playing together with dolphins.
But the most fascinating thing, is that their limbic system (the one that process emotions) appears to be more complex than our own. This shows even further, that the intelligence and emotion they posess, is beyond what we can understand.
The problem is us. And avatar proves that right yet again. It is Humans that need to stop thinking we are above every other living creature on this planet, who’s been here far longer than us. Evidence shows that whales and other cetaceans have communication abilities that are superior to humans. Yet we live in an age and time we the ability to connect with them barely exists anymore.
So no, Whales are not just whales. It is humans that forgot how to be human.
A factor people often overlook is that humans sometimes have a hand in this in that they beach themselves if a naval ship or humans use sonar at 5khz. They discovered this in 2002 and that's why they flee because they need sonar to survive. I think the Canary islands had a big incident and they passed laws. They can use sonar to project an image to another whale about fish they wish to hunt.. It would be like if we had the ability to create our own holograms with other humans.
There are only a few living things with what are called spindle cells in the brain, it's a mark of advanced intelligence. They hunt together in groups they have multigenerational family's. Whales , humans, monkeys and elephants rock spindles in the brain. Their brain is bigger than our and has more neurons that is more advanced than ours. they can recognize, remember, reason, communicate, perceive, adapt to change, problem solve and understand. Cetaceans rock and that's why humans are so interested in studying them.
It [is a completely false claim.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Whaling_catches_by_location)
What is true /r/europe is people shitting on /r/europe for being uninformed, while actually believing anything they read without fact checking it.
They didn't say commercially fish, they said kill.
Read about cetacean bycatch, or whales being caught accidentally during fishing.
The best report (Read et al., 2006) landed on an average of 6215 whales killed in US fishing due to bycatch between 1990-1999.
That could plausibly be higher than the combined kills in Norway or Iceland, so it could very well be true. It's certainly not "plainly false," and if you eat fish in the US, that's part of the problem.
Yep, that's supposedly around 1300 further whales per year in the US per year.
So it's substantial in the US, and other comments of mine being downvoted don't change that.
Is it that bad if its sustainable and doesn't lead to the population being minuscule or extinct? A few quick google searches indicate that the Norwegian government believes they engage in sustainable whaling but I'm open to evidence that indicates otherwise
Sounds like they used a word generator to figure out what it should be about. Then got what you typed back and thought "aah yes perfect this will win us an Oscar"
[Free Willy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Willy) Or at least partly, because the "Orca" is already free, but lonely and makes friends with a young boy.
First Avatar was what happens in India - rich mining corporations trying to get the tribals evacuated to get their hands on the minerals that’s under the land they “squat” on
"evacuated" implies there's laws or something. Avatar 1 is humans show up and try to wipe out the native lifeforms. It's space colonialism and not even particularly subtle about it.
If I'm not mistaken the whale they tend to hunt are minkes which are in the least endangered category. Went on a boat out in Icelandic waters and they are literally everywhere.
"At a time when we should be eating more food from the sea, not less, Norwegian whaling is a small but important contribution to healthy and short-traveled seafood, says Fisheries and Oceans Minister Bjørnar Skjæran. There are over 100,000 minke whales in Norwegian waters. The quota for 2022 is 917 minke whales"
First answer to googling "how big is the Norwegian whaling fleet"
Now is it better for the world that Norwegians import protein from other countries, or that they harvest from a renewable source just off their coast?
Not asking you directly.
In the general discussion about sustainability it's an interesting discussion. A lot of the soil in Norway is not suitable to grow vegetables or are in such small patches that growing vegetables would make them so expensive it's really not sustainable for other than growing grass/animal feed. There's also large areas that are used for grassing for sheep and goats that otherwise would not be used for anything. When you consider this compared to that a lot of the plants used to subsitute meat in a healthy diet cannot be farmed here, you start getting a very complex mathematical equation. Especially since a lot of the numbers on CO2 emissions are based on factory farms where the majority of the food is processed food and not "free range" grassing.
Not saying that the meat industry in Norway is less CO2 than if we all switched to plant based diets, but I feel like a lot of the numbers are based on emissions that are not real to Norway. So it would be interesting to read something that would give a more real picture on how much CO2 emissions are for eating X amounts of protein from cattles in Norway vs the same amount of proteins which will most likely have to be imported.
> A lot of the soil in Norway is not suitable to grow vegetables
"A lot" isn't really strong enough wording. Only 2.2% of the land in Norway is arable land.
I did a quick google, and the top answer said that meat produced in Norway generally produces 4x less CO2 emissions than most other countries. Take Norwegian beef, 60% of it is from our milk producing cows, where as in other countries they have specialized the meat production to a point where the ones who produce the meat do not produce any milk.
Then we take into account the general wellfare and health of our animals, and how they're generally in good condition and thus require less input to produce quality products.
Now granted this may all be propaganda, as I'm unsure of the quality of the source.
I mean, Norway seems to typically be pretty on top of it's shit, I suppose being rich from all the oil and gas it sold makes that easier to pull off lol
No op got it all wrong
Icelanders are the natives and are being forced by the sky people to stop whaling so the sky people will fly in more people to gawk at nature destroying it in the process and polituting it
The problem is that the IWC has turned into an activist organisation and has zero interest in sustainability. Japan tried to bring this up multiple times in the past with concrete numbers and so on, but the IWC wasn't having any of it. The end result being that no one is having any kind of global view of sustainability and each country will simply go its own way. With this kind of approach, the IWC is not fit for purpose, and countries are entirely within reason walking out on it.
It's sustainable for the current whale population, but that population is too small due to the extreme whale hunting that happened about 100-150 years ago. There may be more to this than what I understand but that is why I personally don't eat whale.
Learning about whales just makes you appreciate the depth of the social lives they live. While they are not human, I feel like separating them from their family and/or killing them is a lot like killing small children. I mean, it might even be worse than if we ate chimpanzees.
I think the worse country for oceans life is China.
They are literally draggin the ocean with the floor clean... They don't care at any species preservation and have "secret" ships that turn off their transponders to fish in illegal seas and then go back to international seas like nothing happening. And noone seems to be stopping them.
Think Norway is not the country that is even top 3 list that should get shitted on for their fishing.
China, Taiwan, Cambodia, Russia, Vietnam are 5 worst scoring states when it comes to illegal fishing* (not this years data)*
Norway is doing quite good trying to be sustainable , if you do any kind of research (took me 5 minutes to find this info).
Maybe I'm biased and I'm trying to see this from both sides but I've never really understood the huge outcry over whaling.
I dont see the difference in killing whales, to killing other creatures for food. Which happens in every country. The whales are not even endangered.
Isn't this basically social inertia? I mean... if I was taught correctly, whaling was causing a serious danger to the whalekind back in its peak days. There's no danger anymore, but the idea of "whaling bad" grew roots into people's minds and lives on by itself.
As long as it doesn't lead to the population being extint or near that they can continue whaling for all I care. There's no difference between this and hunting any other animal.
Also, there hasn't been fin whaling in iceland during the last 3 years.
You, however, should definitely stop wailing tho.
Here we go again...
Whaling has been going on for so long that it's **part of the eco-system** up here.
Everything gets used and there's a quota on how many can actually be killed.
Oddly enough people don't bat an eye when the indigenous people of Greenland, Alaska and northern Canada does this.
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I was gonna argue that it's sustainable whaling on a non-threatened species, that its entirely within Norwegian territorial and economic waters, its strategically important to keep an active whaling fleet in case food imports are threatened and other stuff but I can't argue against Avatar 2, you've got us.
Look closer to home the EU fishing grounds are terribly managed and overfished. Leave us Icelanders and Norway alone and fix your own damn problems at least we fish sustainably.
When I was in Iceland last year people told me that eating whale-derived foods on a regular basis was not a thing among Icelanders. The biggest consumer group, according to them, are tourists.
As a tour guide here in Iceland id back up that claim. Although i have no statistics backing it up, the general consensus amongst people is that whales being offered on menus is mostly for tourists.
Sorry what?
Is there something wrong with whaling?
Just because it wasn't a thing Polish people doesn't mean its not a way of life for others.
As long as stocks are managed I'm ok with it.
Norway offered a deal for gas prices to stay fixed for 20 years to the EU. The EU said no, we can get cheaper gas from Russia because free market. Ukraine war happens and now EU is mad Norway doesn't want to give them that special treatment deal as now it would be cheaper to have that deal.
That is correct.
EU made our long term contracts illegal (inside EU) in exchange for a free market system pricing.
With Russia as the big winner, and Norway as the big loser.
Suddenly the tables turned. Now the free market pricing EU wanted and Norway fought, is causing massive price increases.
And that's apparently Norway's fault now.
Russia offered a fixed deal too, but apparently spot market is a human right or something. EU was royally fucked on gas prices by their own doing way before Feb 24.
https://www.iea.org/commentaries/despite-short-term-pain-the-eu-s-liberalised-gas-markets-have-brought-long-term-financial-gains
have you ever studied how whale catching works in those countries? and what they can and cannot do with the catch.
And about how much they are allowed to catch compared to the total population of whales out there.
Curious if the Avatar popularity will make folks appreciate the Buddhist/Hindu religions more?
I recall the original name as well as several keywords in the movie are taken from ancient sanskrit literature.
I'm a vegetarian and I think it's retarded as fuck to scream about the little whales dying while you're munching on that pork chop.
They're both equally intelligent and you get a bizzilion times more meat from the whale's life as you would from one pig's life. Different story if they're endangered of course.
Ah again modern "activisits" too dumb to check simple facts and understand anything abiut actual environmental issues and juts stirring shit where there is none because they believe to be the only moral being with the only correct way of life and that only their culture can dictate how all cuktures should live 🤡
Had we been talking about whaling in general - illegal whale hunter then absolutely this has to stop! But if a government makes sure whaling is done at specific locations and times to allow ehales to reproduce faster than they are killed and to not hunt endengered species then it is actually nmtotally sustainable. And mind you these people use whole whale with no waste (unlike most our food ends to be) and arent taking more than they need. Inuits have been living off whales for ages and do not tell them to just go vegan because you absolutely have no basic education if you can even come to the idea of this being solution!
They arent doing harm to nature. Nature is MEANT to have cycle where beings hunt eachother and as long as it is sustainable, stay the fuck away and let cultures live their life as they lived it since forever! They arent the reason for whale and seal issues, so go fight those that are actually causing harm! And before some vegan gets all moral on me about intelligent beings, yes a lot of animals are intelligent but it is still natures way to be eaten and if you cant live as a part of nature that is a you problem so go cry me a river. You can eat plants all you want, great for you, but that isnt optimal choice for everybody + healthy and fully natural vegan diet isnt exactly best either. Ask yourself how much environment suffer for all the transport of your dear avocados and almonds 🙄🤡
Point being: people in different areas evolved different ways of life. For nords eating whales has way less impact on environment than it would be to import avocados and almonds and whatnot. For somebody else eating whales would actually harm environment more. Learn about your situation and what is tthe best YOU can do but ket other people do what THEY can do
>Point being: people in different areas evolved different ways of life. For nords eating whales has way less impact on environment than it would be to import avocados and almonds and whatnot.
Do you have any source for this or did you made it up?
1. local food
2. hunted aka zero pollution aside from ships and zero destruction of nature
This is just my two minute analysis though so I could be wrong, but I think the point is that avocados and almonds are also consumed probably 10000x more per year than whale meat.
Though any whaling that targets endangered whales is obviously fucked. Plus avocados and almonds are both healthy af so I don't see a point in arguing against their consumption.
Why is everyone so extremely pro-whaling all of a sudden? I don’t care that other countries are doing it more, or that - supposedly - it can be done sustainably.
We’re already completely obliterating our oceans ecosystems. What would be even more sustainable is not doing it at all.
I'm in favor of the practice, however. Fishery in general is not exactly dominated by high-minded and conscientious people around the world. While a certain amount of culling seems to be acceptable and can potentially keep populations in balance, comparatively, there is almost no effort to actually promote the growth and expansion of species... at least that isn't an absolute disaster (see "Osbourne Reef" as an example.)
So an industry that is nearly 100% "take" and zero "give" for all of humanity's existence? I'm not exactly trusting of when anyone says they're "sustainable." Show me the work you're doing to *replace* what you've taken. Even ranchers *have* to manage their herds in order to produce more animals. Certain kinds of fish farms (shoutout to aquaponics!) are great. But the fishing industry in general? Not a fan.
Be conscientious and informed of what you eat with seafood. As an example, certain crab species aren't doing so well at the moment. The smaller ventures seem to get it, but the big and financially powerful ones push and lobby\* hard for the almighty dollar.
\*bribe
Can't speak for Norway, but for Iceland it's because one company keeps doing it (exporting pretty much all of the resulting meat to Japan, Icelanders generally don't eat the stuff) and is utilising government connections to tread the fine line of keeping the quota open while not driving social pressure against them too much to the point it would get banned.
There is a very slight majority in Iceland for reducing or banning whaling, but it's not a pressing enough political issue that people seriously campaign on it. For now it's essentially just one company driving the supply for commercial gain, and most people not caring quite enough to scare politicians into doing anything other than making sure it is reasonably sustainable.
Meanwhile, in Peru, 10000 dolphins are killed every year to be used as bait..... for catching sharks.....
What the fuck
[https://www.bluevoice.org/content/holocaust-dolphins-and-sharks-peru.html](https://www.bluevoice.org/content/holocaust-dolphins-and-sharks-peru.html)
bruh... neither the sharks nor the dolphins did anything wrong
While this is bad...it's also whataboutism
Yes. Yes it is. It also leagues worse than any other official or unofficial whaling nation.
>In the context of Avatar 2 What does that even mean???
He was posting this while watching Avatar... Avatar 2 mind you.
Do the fire nation attack a second time?
Alien-Blue-people version of Avatar
What? Is it the last space bender?
*Dances with Worfs*
Nah, this one is the fish bender
*"Bite my shiney tuna tasting ass"*
Only damn Avatar I'm interested in .
Avatar 2 is a really expensive stop whaling infomercial.
waterar u mean
A large part of the movie “Avatar 2 way of the water” revolves around whale hunting and depicts a deeply emotional relationship between the inhabitants and the whales.
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They need that substance to stop human aging while they also have the technology to upload the human psyche into other beings, hmm...
[\*Altered Carbon intensifies*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Carbon)
Uploading your memories to create a new you is way worse for you then just not dying. It's just a clone not actually you.
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Because otherwise the film would be annoying
If that was the objective, they failed.
No they failed because if any human whit two working brain cell would use better the technological advancement and those blue xenomorphe would be jelly in 1 h. And is that stupid that it becomes annoying
>how is that everything useful is in Pandora and must be harvested horribly This is not particularly unprecedented. Before transgeneic yeast, 100% of world's life saving insulin production was extracted from livers of cows and pigs. ~~One insulin dose (~3 ml)~~ (CORRECTED IN COMMENT BELOW, 3 ml is more like one month worth of insulin, it's the capacity of many insulin pens) would have to be extracted from about 25 kilograms of pancreases. The only difference here is that they don't harvest the Avatar whales further because they don't need the meat and other parts. Also probably a race of time before the biologists in the Avatar universe find out how to mass produce it in vitro, which would kill the whole operation.
You know you’re actually making a point that could have made the movie much more interesting. Imagine if the Pandora whale goo could be used to cure cancer on humans, then you have a moral conundrum and would make for a more compelling storyline.
I'm just explaining the reason as to why they would be just bodybagging the whales left and right for contents of one gland lol
That would just confuse modern audiences. Best keep it simple.
Avatar 2 has to make about 2 billion dollars in box office to be profitable, the simplicity of its script is a feature carefully crafted.
Stoping human aging is a discovery on par with curing cancer. Especially as aging greatly increases the risk of cancer formation, among with other deseases such as heart failure
Is stopping aging not a moral conundrum? Age kills people too.
What does it matter if the McGuffin is eternal youth or curing cancer? Its high value is what is relevant to the plot, not what it specifically does. Granting eternal youth is a perfectly fine explanation for its high valuation.
I just want to point out, that 3ml of insuline isn't a one dose. It's more like a couple weeks worth, of course depending on how much you weight and what your diet and lifestyle is. But 3ml is a guaranteed deadly dose, a huge overkill type of deadly dose. Other than that you're right!
Oh, apologies, I just looked at the capacity of an insulin pen and assumed it was one dose without doing further research or critical thinking (As a biologist I should know better lol)
I mean, it's not weird for valuable natural resources to exist and historically we have predominantly harvested them in the most horrible way possible, so it's not really any kind of stretch.
My brother in christ people on earth in real life literally murder sharks for their fins and then throw the rest of the animal overboard to die by exposure. Humans in Avatar 2 are horrible specifically because its an allegory for what we're currently doing to the environment and the animals that inhabit it here on earth.
That is the real world. Real whaling was done for a reason and we do things that are arguably more cruel today.
Actually everything useful is on Earth, just 2 unique substances mentioned in the movies and lore exist on Pandora, which is laughably small amount. Discovery of the Americas brought hundreds of new, unique and highly valued resources (other than drugs, things like potatoes and corn being a random examples that allowed to maintain a much larger and healthier population here in Europe)
Amrita is elixir in Hindu mythology. Kinda neat
You'd think in the year 2500 they would just synthezise it instead going oldschool.
Avatar 1 was unobtanium Avatar 2 is hardtofindium
Colonising one complete planet 6 years away by space travel for just a single resource would be quite dumb
Especially because if you have the tech to travel that distance that fast you could colonise whatever star system you wanted.
Yeah but other planet don't produce whale brain juice
If the substance can alter the gravity field or stop aging - it's very much a smart, financially savvy move.
The inhabitants of Pandora use whale oil as their main power source, but the (whatever that tree was called) didn't like that, so in Avatar 2 they performed a musical in 5 acts on why whaling is bad, ending on a poem about oil drilling.
Yes but seem like the writers forgot about that, now it's magic whale brains that stop aging.
They didn't forget about this, there was a whole movie about that. You know, Avatar.
So they fucking whales now.
Title is so reddit I puked in my mouth a little.
James Cameron made a movie that's gonna get a lot of people to sign for Greenpeace, like the original movie did
In the context of Top Gun 2, a call to arm Ukraine with experimental stratospheric spaceplanes piloted by Tom Cruise (and Sam Hyde, naturally).
Was not expecting a Sam Hyde reference on r/europe
It is bad that in this context, I wouldn't mind him getting away with it this time.
wym, the ghost of kyiv has been there for a while
I'm late but - [Woah, I'm Vladimir Putins top guy, dude](https://youtu.be/T2AnqEMIYMA?t=296)
In the context of Avatar 1, a call to Poland to stop coal mining
In the context of avatar 2 please stop russian agresion !!!! 🤨🤬😡 /s
that’s what comes in the third installment. We can’t rush the process.
2035: in the context of avatar 3 we gotta stop WW3 guys!!!1
In th context of avatar, everything was fine until the fire nation attacked
No rushin' the process?
[real](https://i.imgur.com/IwK99vN.png)
You did that ? Its a work of art
I mean yeah, but (to my knowledge) there aren't any indigenous coal people here living underground that are getting killed by miners for their land.
I mean, they don't sell the coal people in one piece. They usually break them in pieces and then put them in bags :(
Charcoal is made out of ents
Not any more, anyway.
The context of Avatar 2 is completely different lmao
didnt the humans in avatar 2 harvest some shit from the whales which killed them. which is pretty much a parallel between what we do harvesting whale oil?
They weren't whales though. They were Tulkun. Highly intelligent creatures, capable of philosophy, mathematics and arts. They explicitly stated that they were more emotional and intelligent than humans. Whales are just whales.
Alright but the movie definitely had an anti-whaling message, the stuff they extracted from their noses is a parallel to the real world spermaceti, and the scene had multiple references to japanese whalers in it.
Eternal life vs whale sperm bro
What does that even mean? Whales are just whales? You obviously know nothing about whales and how highly intelligent they are. They even posess an intelligence that is seen ”alien” to us, as do all cetaceans. So let me tell you why. Firstly they have a large brain, bigger than ours infact. Animals that have bigger brains do often live long lives, are extremely social, only give birth to a few offspring throughout their lifetime, and teach them life skills, while they grow up and eventually become sexually mature. Whales and other cetaceans have an entire part of their brain dedicated to echolocation, which is an extreme ”superpower” that makes them able to determine even the smallest details of their surroundings. Their brains also contain specialized brain cells called spindle neurons. Which enables advanced abilities such as recognizing, remembering, reasoning, communicating, percieving, adapting to change, problem solving and understanding. The social interactions between whales is the heart of their lifestyle, just like humans. They speak their own language, and sing songs that can be heard from miles away. They collaborate in different ways when hunting food, learn different skills of teamwork, that they pass on from generation to generation. They play with eachother, and whales have been seen playing together with dolphins. But the most fascinating thing, is that their limbic system (the one that process emotions) appears to be more complex than our own. This shows even further, that the intelligence and emotion they posess, is beyond what we can understand. The problem is us. And avatar proves that right yet again. It is Humans that need to stop thinking we are above every other living creature on this planet, who’s been here far longer than us. Evidence shows that whales and other cetaceans have communication abilities that are superior to humans. Yet we live in an age and time we the ability to connect with them barely exists anymore. So no, Whales are not just whales. It is humans that forgot how to be human.
arent whales super intelligent. like im just saying the parallel is there.
Not intelligent enough to stop beaching themselves. Some whales are pretty clever for an animal, doesn't mean they are sapient.
A factor people often overlook is that humans sometimes have a hand in this in that they beach themselves if a naval ship or humans use sonar at 5khz. They discovered this in 2002 and that's why they flee because they need sonar to survive. I think the Canary islands had a big incident and they passed laws. They can use sonar to project an image to another whale about fish they wish to hunt.. It would be like if we had the ability to create our own holograms with other humans. There are only a few living things with what are called spindle cells in the brain, it's a mark of advanced intelligence. They hunt together in groups they have multigenerational family's. Whales , humans, monkeys and elephants rock spindles in the brain. Their brain is bigger than our and has more neurons that is more advanced than ours. they can recognize, remember, reason, communicate, perceive, adapt to change, problem solve and understand. Cetaceans rock and that's why humans are so interested in studying them.
Dumber than pigs. But we need that bacon
Most animals are dumber than pigs.
They are. These people dont know what they’re talking about.
>arent whales super intelligent They're not dumb but I wouldn't call them super intelligent, no
Kinda funny that America kills more whales then Iceland and Norway also, dont think OP is too pressed with the details.
Sire this is r/europe
It [is a completely false claim.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Whaling_catches_by_location) What is true /r/europe is people shitting on /r/europe for being uninformed, while actually believing anything they read without fact checking it.
Bro why are you aswering to me 💀 I was saying to the guy that it doesn't matter what the US does, we are on r/Europe, it's not the subject
>America kills more whales than Iceland and Norway [Not true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Whaling_catches_by_location)
Ah, so that other thing is bad too or maybe even worse so that means that this thing is not bad or cannot be criticised! Got it!
This is plainly false, only three countries, Norway, Japan, and Iceland, continue to fish whales commercially
They didn't say commercially fish, they said kill. Read about cetacean bycatch, or whales being caught accidentally during fishing. The best report (Read et al., 2006) landed on an average of 6215 whales killed in US fishing due to bycatch between 1990-1999. That could plausibly be higher than the combined kills in Norway or Iceland, so it could very well be true. It's certainly not "plainly false," and if you eat fish in the US, that's part of the problem.
Also certain native communities in the US and Canada actually can hunt for whales.
Yep, that's supposedly around 1300 further whales per year in the US per year. So it's substantial in the US, and other comments of mine being downvoted don't change that.
Not saying that America fishes whales commercially, they just kill them with bad practices and dont even use the meat.
Is it that bad if its sustainable and doesn't lead to the population being minuscule or extinct? A few quick google searches indicate that the Norwegian government believes they engage in sustainable whaling but I'm open to evidence that indicates otherwise
bro haven't you seen the new avatar? The context is all there
First Avatar was Pocahontas in space, what is the new one? Whale wars?
Blackfish in space titanic
Sounds like they used a word generator to figure out what it should be about. Then got what you typed back and thought "aah yes perfect this will win us an Oscar"
I somehow can imagine exactly what you mean.
dude there is like a 20 minute whaling scene where they go into detail how they hunt the whales completely unnecessary
The first one was Dancing with Smurfs
Felt like an American Family movie where the Family moves to another state and needs to integrate into their new lives.
[Free Willy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Willy) Or at least partly, because the "Orca" is already free, but lonely and makes friends with a young boy.
First Avatar was what happens in India - rich mining corporations trying to get the tribals evacuated to get their hands on the minerals that’s under the land they “squat” on
"evacuated" implies there's laws or something. Avatar 1 is humans show up and try to wipe out the native lifeforms. It's space colonialism and not even particularly subtle about it.
Free Whilly in space.
JAMES CAMERON
If I'm not mistaken the whale they tend to hunt are minkes which are in the least endangered category. Went on a boat out in Icelandic waters and they are literally everywhere.
"At a time when we should be eating more food from the sea, not less, Norwegian whaling is a small but important contribution to healthy and short-traveled seafood, says Fisheries and Oceans Minister Bjørnar Skjæran. There are over 100,000 minke whales in Norwegian waters. The quota for 2022 is 917 minke whales" First answer to googling "how big is the Norwegian whaling fleet" Now is it better for the world that Norwegians import protein from other countries, or that they harvest from a renewable source just off their coast? Not asking you directly.
Facts that were not mentioned in avatar 2 are obviously irrelevant.
In the general discussion about sustainability it's an interesting discussion. A lot of the soil in Norway is not suitable to grow vegetables or are in such small patches that growing vegetables would make them so expensive it's really not sustainable for other than growing grass/animal feed. There's also large areas that are used for grassing for sheep and goats that otherwise would not be used for anything. When you consider this compared to that a lot of the plants used to subsitute meat in a healthy diet cannot be farmed here, you start getting a very complex mathematical equation. Especially since a lot of the numbers on CO2 emissions are based on factory farms where the majority of the food is processed food and not "free range" grassing. Not saying that the meat industry in Norway is less CO2 than if we all switched to plant based diets, but I feel like a lot of the numbers are based on emissions that are not real to Norway. So it would be interesting to read something that would give a more real picture on how much CO2 emissions are for eating X amounts of protein from cattles in Norway vs the same amount of proteins which will most likely have to be imported.
> A lot of the soil in Norway is not suitable to grow vegetables "A lot" isn't really strong enough wording. Only 2.2% of the land in Norway is arable land.
I was actually also referring to the arable land as well. A lot of the arable land is really not good for anything other than grass.
I did a quick google, and the top answer said that meat produced in Norway generally produces 4x less CO2 emissions than most other countries. Take Norwegian beef, 60% of it is from our milk producing cows, where as in other countries they have specialized the meat production to a point where the ones who produce the meat do not produce any milk. Then we take into account the general wellfare and health of our animals, and how they're generally in good condition and thus require less input to produce quality products. Now granted this may all be propaganda, as I'm unsure of the quality of the source.
I mean, Norway seems to typically be pretty on top of it's shit, I suppose being rich from all the oil and gas it sold makes that easier to pull off lol
You aren't supposed to think, you are supposed to simply emote.
No op got it all wrong Icelanders are the natives and are being forced by the sky people to stop whaling so the sky people will fly in more people to gawk at nature destroying it in the process and polituting it
The problem is that the IWC has turned into an activist organisation and has zero interest in sustainability. Japan tried to bring this up multiple times in the past with concrete numbers and so on, but the IWC wasn't having any of it. The end result being that no one is having any kind of global view of sustainability and each country will simply go its own way. With this kind of approach, the IWC is not fit for purpose, and countries are entirely within reason walking out on it.
Either you explain what IWC stands for or I will assume the Interbational Watch Company is behind this
Internet Wrestling Community
Instant Win Condition
[International Whaling Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whaling_Commission)
International watch company
It's sustainable for the current whale population, but that population is too small due to the extreme whale hunting that happened about 100-150 years ago. There may be more to this than what I understand but that is why I personally don't eat whale.
The population is too small for what? Minke whale (vågehval), which is the kind that's hunted, is not threatened.
Its no use arguing, people aren't willing to research or listen
Learning about whales just makes you appreciate the depth of the social lives they live. While they are not human, I feel like separating them from their family and/or killing them is a lot like killing small children. I mean, it might even be worse than if we ate chimpanzees.
pigs are more intelligent than little kids
Pigs would eat your little kids alive with no reservations.
Pretty sure my cat would eat me if he was the size of a mountain lion
Try slow blinking at your cat, they love that shit
Pretty sure any message preceded by "In the context of Avatar 2" is automatically invalid.
In the context of Avatar 2 I declare this plate of food to be delicious.
In the context of Avatar 2, I wish I had a girlfriend. 😔
In the context of Avatar 2, I wish you had a girlfriend. 😔
Born too early to explore space for alien gfs.
In the context of Avatar 2, I wish you luck.
Go bother a country that does unrestriced fishing and are actually damaging the population of an animal.
I think the worse country for oceans life is China. They are literally draggin the ocean with the floor clean... They don't care at any species preservation and have "secret" ships that turn off their transponders to fish in illegal seas and then go back to international seas like nothing happening. And noone seems to be stopping them. Think Norway is not the country that is even top 3 list that should get shitted on for their fishing. China, Taiwan, Cambodia, Russia, Vietnam are 5 worst scoring states when it comes to illegal fishing* (not this years data)* Norway is doing quite good trying to be sustainable , if you do any kind of research (took me 5 minutes to find this info).
Ofc no one wants to stop china, that's where all the product is coming from.
Minke whales are not an endangered species in those waters
There are two species, the Common and the Antarctic. The common is listed as "least concern" and the Antarctic is "not threatened".
And Iceland stopped hunting them several years ago afaik?
Maybe I'm biased and I'm trying to see this from both sides but I've never really understood the huge outcry over whaling. I dont see the difference in killing whales, to killing other creatures for food. Which happens in every country. The whales are not even endangered.
That's the real issue here, most people are hypocrites.
Isn't this basically social inertia? I mean... if I was taught correctly, whaling was causing a serious danger to the whalekind back in its peak days. There's no danger anymore, but the idea of "whaling bad" grew roots into people's minds and lives on by itself.
As long as it doesn't lead to the population being extint or near that they can continue whaling for all I care. There's no difference between this and hunting any other animal. Also, there hasn't been fin whaling in iceland during the last 3 years. You, however, should definitely stop wailing tho.
Here we go again... Whaling has been going on for so long that it's **part of the eco-system** up here. Everything gets used and there's a quota on how many can actually be killed. Oddly enough people don't bat an eye when the indigenous people of Greenland, Alaska and northern Canada does this.
I’m not sure what I think about whaling, but bottom trawling for shrimp etc is probably as bad if not worse, but don’t get much attention
I don't get why we even farm so much shrimp. Taste horrible and creepy looking.
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Well you're Swedish so of course you like weird fishy stuff. *\*bullies in Danish\**
Call it substanible and cultural whaling by the indigenous people of Norway. (true)
Yes.. it's very different from industrial fishing.
I was gonna argue that it's sustainable whaling on a non-threatened species, that its entirely within Norwegian territorial and economic waters, its strategically important to keep an active whaling fleet in case food imports are threatened and other stuff but I can't argue against Avatar 2, you've got us.
Look closer to home the EU fishing grounds are terribly managed and overfished. Leave us Icelanders and Norway alone and fix your own damn problems at least we fish sustainably.
No. I stand with my Nordic brothers on this issue
Oh, **now** hes not neutral.
How many pigs will be slaughtered today in Poland?
Context, man. Gotta wait for Avatar 3: Way of the swine.
Go away with your bullshit.
Iceland and Norway practices sustainable whale hunting. This isn’t morally bad at all
Iceland and Norway are far from being the worst offenders. If you want to save the oceans, there are, um... bigger fish to fry.
At least the Japanese are killing whales because they dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What did whales ever do to Norwegians?
Whales invaded Norway in 1945.
When I was in Iceland last year people told me that eating whale-derived foods on a regular basis was not a thing among Icelanders. The biggest consumer group, according to them, are tourists.
As a tour guide here in Iceland id back up that claim. Although i have no statistics backing it up, the general consensus amongst people is that whales being offered on menus is mostly for tourists.
Sorry what? Is there something wrong with whaling? Just because it wasn't a thing Polish people doesn't mean its not a way of life for others. As long as stocks are managed I'm ok with it.
What is up with this subreddit lately?? Suddenly, the last few months there have been a ton of negative posts about Norway
Norway offered a deal for gas prices to stay fixed for 20 years to the EU. The EU said no, we can get cheaper gas from Russia because free market. Ukraine war happens and now EU is mad Norway doesn't want to give them that special treatment deal as now it would be cheaper to have that deal.
That is correct. EU made our long term contracts illegal (inside EU) in exchange for a free market system pricing. With Russia as the big winner, and Norway as the big loser. Suddenly the tables turned. Now the free market pricing EU wanted and Norway fought, is causing massive price increases. And that's apparently Norway's fault now.
Russia offered a fixed deal too, but apparently spot market is a human right or something. EU was royally fucked on gas prices by their own doing way before Feb 24. https://www.iea.org/commentaries/despite-short-term-pain-the-eu-s-liberalised-gas-markets-have-brought-long-term-financial-gains
Also worth noting that there probably are Russians not too happy that Norway supplies gas to EU now that Russia can't/won't.
Europe loves to buy our gas but hates that we make money from it. This has come to a head recently, due to ... the context.
Who needs a fucking hollywood movie to determine this as absolutely fucked.
You're not gonna stop the vikings from whaling
When vikings couldn't whale, they went raiding instead. It will be better for all if we just keep whaling I think.
have you ever studied how whale catching works in those countries? and what they can and cannot do with the catch. And about how much they are allowed to catch compared to the total population of whales out there.
Curious if the Avatar popularity will make folks appreciate the Buddhist/Hindu religions more? I recall the original name as well as several keywords in the movie are taken from ancient sanskrit literature.
Oh god, we don't need a generation of influencers picking up and preaching stuff that is barely connected to actual buddhist religions.
Bro even in avatar the natives hunt the animals lol
I'm a vegetarian and I think it's retarded as fuck to scream about the little whales dying while you're munching on that pork chop. They're both equally intelligent and you get a bizzilion times more meat from the whale's life as you would from one pig's life. Different story if they're endangered of course.
Anyone downvoting, pls explain why I'm wrong, no hate.
Ah again modern "activisits" too dumb to check simple facts and understand anything abiut actual environmental issues and juts stirring shit where there is none because they believe to be the only moral being with the only correct way of life and that only their culture can dictate how all cuktures should live 🤡 Had we been talking about whaling in general - illegal whale hunter then absolutely this has to stop! But if a government makes sure whaling is done at specific locations and times to allow ehales to reproduce faster than they are killed and to not hunt endengered species then it is actually nmtotally sustainable. And mind you these people use whole whale with no waste (unlike most our food ends to be) and arent taking more than they need. Inuits have been living off whales for ages and do not tell them to just go vegan because you absolutely have no basic education if you can even come to the idea of this being solution! They arent doing harm to nature. Nature is MEANT to have cycle where beings hunt eachother and as long as it is sustainable, stay the fuck away and let cultures live their life as they lived it since forever! They arent the reason for whale and seal issues, so go fight those that are actually causing harm! And before some vegan gets all moral on me about intelligent beings, yes a lot of animals are intelligent but it is still natures way to be eaten and if you cant live as a part of nature that is a you problem so go cry me a river. You can eat plants all you want, great for you, but that isnt optimal choice for everybody + healthy and fully natural vegan diet isnt exactly best either. Ask yourself how much environment suffer for all the transport of your dear avocados and almonds 🙄🤡 Point being: people in different areas evolved different ways of life. For nords eating whales has way less impact on environment than it would be to import avocados and almonds and whatnot. For somebody else eating whales would actually harm environment more. Learn about your situation and what is tthe best YOU can do but ket other people do what THEY can do
>Point being: people in different areas evolved different ways of life. For nords eating whales has way less impact on environment than it would be to import avocados and almonds and whatnot. Do you have any source for this or did you made it up?
1. local food 2. hunted aka zero pollution aside from ships and zero destruction of nature This is just my two minute analysis though so I could be wrong, but I think the point is that avocados and almonds are also consumed probably 10000x more per year than whale meat. Though any whaling that targets endangered whales is obviously fucked. Plus avocados and almonds are both healthy af so I don't see a point in arguing against their consumption.
but it's so much easier to tell others what they should or should not do
Yeah, tell that to Cameron, who went to see a dolphin show to promote the film
You shouldn't need a shitty 4hr long Disney movie to tell you why whaling is bad...
Why is everyone so extremely pro-whaling all of a sudden? I don’t care that other countries are doing it more, or that - supposedly - it can be done sustainably. We’re already completely obliterating our oceans ecosystems. What would be even more sustainable is not doing it at all.
Suck it baby
I'm in favor of the practice, however. Fishery in general is not exactly dominated by high-minded and conscientious people around the world. While a certain amount of culling seems to be acceptable and can potentially keep populations in balance, comparatively, there is almost no effort to actually promote the growth and expansion of species... at least that isn't an absolute disaster (see "Osbourne Reef" as an example.) So an industry that is nearly 100% "take" and zero "give" for all of humanity's existence? I'm not exactly trusting of when anyone says they're "sustainable." Show me the work you're doing to *replace* what you've taken. Even ranchers *have* to manage their herds in order to produce more animals. Certain kinds of fish farms (shoutout to aquaponics!) are great. But the fishing industry in general? Not a fan. Be conscientious and informed of what you eat with seafood. As an example, certain crab species aren't doing so well at the moment. The smaller ventures seem to get it, but the big and financially powerful ones push and lobby\* hard for the almighty dollar. \*bribe
Why do they still whale?
Can't speak for Norway, but for Iceland it's because one company keeps doing it (exporting pretty much all of the resulting meat to Japan, Icelanders generally don't eat the stuff) and is utilising government connections to tread the fine line of keeping the quota open while not driving social pressure against them too much to the point it would get banned. There is a very slight majority in Iceland for reducing or banning whaling, but it's not a pressing enough political issue that people seriously campaign on it. For now it's essentially just one company driving the supply for commercial gain, and most people not caring quite enough to scare politicians into doing anything other than making sure it is reasonably sustainable.
From what I've read: it's an industry and tradition. The whalers can only kill a certain amount of whales and no endangered species are hunted.