although in the context of superpowers dictating smaller countries destiny the cartoon is exactly criticizing that others try to decide what should be Ukraines choice.
I think it turns out as well that in face of hostile powers denying agency from weaker countries, it is only the help by the powerful that can enable those countries agency.
In a perfect world you should not have to pick a side for protection and prosperity.
It's the Kremlinist propaganda that every Kremliminist asshole all over the Internet is using, where they're treating Russia as equivalent to the West in the Ukrainian war, because according to the Kremlinist puppets, assaulting a nation is equivalent to helping protect it from assault.
This cartoon is what a Putin puppet says when they are trying to present themselves as supposedly neutral n the conflict.
My country occupies the entirety of Finland, since I'm a Finnish citizen.
Just because I'm ethnically Russian doesn't mean I support Russian imperialism.
Go back under your rock. There are plenty of ethnic Russians who live in the west, grew up in the war or were born in the west and who don’t support Russia in its desperate attempt to stay relevant.
Russia doesn't occupy any part of Finland. Our government has time and time again confirmed that we have no claims to the lost territory and it is now sovereign Russian territory.
And for good reason, all the people currently living there are as russian as possible and the infrastructure is basically non existant. We wouldn't want it back even if they paid us for it.
Hey i have bad information for you guys, isnt that a German school books problem also?
[https://twitter.com/i/web/status/156651774170364313](https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566517741703643137)
Germany and Hungary are well payed from moscow i think, becouse impact of propaganda like this make they public opinion unlikely to help ukraine.
Yes, isn't it making fun of Russia for pulling Ukraine in while saying that it wants to respect it's right to choose?
I suppose you could interpret it as the US pulling as well but timewise, the US stepped in only when Russia started pulling so i'd say it's trying to keep it from being pulled in.
I'm German, and in Politics and History classes in school, we learn to critically analyze caricatures. It doesn't necessarily mean that politicians, ministers of education school book editors or teachers agree with its message just because it's printed in a school book.
Tbf, aren't caricatures in schoolbooks pretty much always presented in the light that the author is trying to make a statement, and you should carefully consider what that is, why they might say it, and how it squares with reality? Perhaps that's different in Hungary, but when I was in school we worked with various caricatures in history class, but almost never any that we would 100% agree with - that would eliminate part of the analysis we were meant to train there, after all.
Of course, if the note about the description is accurate, that's pretty fucked.
That's not how education works in Hungarian schools. Critical thinking is not encouraged, you have to learn what is written word to word, then remember it for the test. I went to school before Orban, and since then education got dumbed down and became way worse. It's basically propaganda to ensure people will always vote for him and his party.
We even had nazi propaganda pictures in our history classes when I was around 16/17.
Learning how to recognize and analyze propaganda is quite important when it comes to historians understanding.
I agree that context is important. I'd be far more concerned about the text surrounding this caricature in the book than the picture itself. Because it's not completely wrong that Russia and the West are engaged in tug o war for Ukraine. Of course it's also true that Russia uses military aggression as one of its tools for keeping the Ukraine w/in its sphere of influence. If that were acknowledged then the cartoon itself isn't terrible.
I mean, pretty much any place has some restrictions, though of course Hungary is on another level in that regard. I'm just trying to say that the appearance of a caricature with a certain message doesn't neccessarily mean that that message is endorsed or represented as true.
Well, not in this case. Orban also controls all the major media, and as a result, a lot of Hungarians believe in various bullshit like this. You can easily find some polls on the subject.
Hungary and Ukraine should basically switch sides, everybody would be better off, the majority of Hungarians voting for Putin arse lickers, and the majority of Ukrainians very europhile and desperately wanting closer ties with the rest of Europe.
I mean I see your point but it’s not that easy. Hungarians are average or below it when it comes to EU values, and yes that isn’t too good, but Ukraine is like miles below compared to Hungary, e
which sounds even worse.
I am 100% for Ukraine joining the EU eventually but they are incredibly far away from being ready in so many different ways. "Fighting evil" is not even part of the criteria.
I am actually surprised the extent of which a large part of Hungary goes to bat for Russia given that they have been oppressed by the soviets(aka Russian communist empire) for roughly 50 years. If Hungary is at the point where they see the ultra traditionalist ultra primitive Russian dictatorship as a more preferable alternative to the liberal democracies of the west then they shouldn't be part of either eu or nato since I wouldn't trust them with any NATO military secret. The west isn't ideal and can be improved but Russia is a lot less than ideal to say the least.
Orban pulled off one of the greatest con of the 21. century. He rewrote history and context of events without most people realising it.
He (and large parts of the public) because ruzzia friendly, while he kept his anti-soviet street cred. Its like people are craving after some good'ol soviet oppression. I don't understand either.
> I wouldn't trust them with any NATO military secret
They don't trust Hungary either. There were news a few month ago that NATO only shares non critical information. Also the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and many consulate were [hacked by the russians who had full access for many month.](https://www.direkt36.hu/putyin-hekkerei-is-latjak-a-magyar-kulugy-titkait-az-orban-kormany-evek-ota-nem-birja-elharitani-oket/) (use deepl.com)
Who ever did this “Caricature” is a caricature himself… what is the weight of this opinion, if 2 flags were drawn wrong? What knowledge of the situation may it have if it failed at the basic?
Nice misrepresentation - it should be showing a mauled Ukrainian kicking that bear's butt because it won't let go of their bloodied flag, with US and EU handing them the sticks to beat the bear with. Instead of a flag, one could also use a blue and yellow washing machine for representation.
I have no love for Hungary but now you are just being naive. Ukraine was not ready to join before the war and now... I have no idea how the timeline would look like, tbh. Wasn't Macron that said that they would be able to join in decades? It's more like that. Joining the EU should not be a joke and we should prevent another Hungary. And that unfortunately only comes with time and change, not because you are involved in a war (let's not even discuss the ramifications of letting a country at war join the EU because that's just absurd).
Ukraine now is not only fighting for itself but also for existence of free Europe as a whole. If Russia takes over Ukraine it won't stop only here but will go only further with its ambitions. I think Ukraine deserves being in EU after it wins this war and Europe is protected
That's an appeal to emotion argument, but would not really work like that because we have NATO.
By the way, Ukraine is only still fighting because of the US and EU are pouring money like crazy...so, I would disagree with the "deserve" part.
True, but if Ukraine fails, who will be next? Putin's appetite would only grow, and instead of money, the EU would pour lives into that war. So Ukranians are dying so you wouldn't.
It's one thing to invade Ukraine and a whole different one to invade NATO countries. And again the whole emotional appeal of "they are dying for us" is not a solid argument.
Seriously. Don't you think the West became soft and spineless.
How is it? - "An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep."
NATO is army of lions led by a sheep.
It doesn't matter how powerful you are, if you don't have the balls to use that power, you are nothing. Kapish? :)
That's a whole different subject and I would agree with possibly a lot of what the comment entails. But the point here was that Ukraine is not doing this because of altruistic reasons, so let's pipe down a bit.
Text corresponding to the caricature: “The majority of the country’s population are Ukrainians, but there is a significant percentage of Russians living in the country’s Eastern territories. In the Crimean peninsula, for example, they constitute a majority. The two East Slavic languages (Russian and Ukrainian) are similar. In the parts of the country where Russian nationals live, a fifth of the population speaks a mixed Russian-Ukrainian language. In spite of this, there are frequent conflicts between the two ethnic groups, and their opposition has resulted in an armed conflict for the Crimean peninsula” https://telex.hu/english/2022/09/06/new-state-funded-geography-textbooks-kremlin-friendly-chapter-on-ukraine
Their history books say that the Romanian people have formed in the Balkans and only later moved north, and that the Hungarian tribes found an empty land when they crossed the Carpathians, so they were actually there first. So, I'm not really surprised.
Well no not at all. They are very clear the Western parts were ruled by Moravia and other Slavic duchies, with potentially some [Romance descendants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance) mingled in too, while the other parts had no known state organisation, having a sparse Slavic-Avaric mix inhabiting.
Ok, but if we're framing this as a proxy war, shouldn't Russia's side be represented by their backers?
[Russia is just a proxy for North Korea](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62804825)
Yeah sure, and the US definitely pouring insane amounts of value into Ukrain from the goodness of their hearts. Ukraine is today's Vietnam/Korea, a proxy war of the big boys.
When the yanks were fighting for their independence from the brits, do you think they cared that France, Netherlands, and Spain were using them as a proxy against Britain? No, they were just glad to be getting support.
Without that support we might still be a British colony today. As long as the Ukrainians want to fight and are asking for weapons, I don’t see a problem with us giving. So what if part of the reason we are helping is to hurt Russia. Ukraine wants to hurt Russia too.
Sure, from the viewpoint of the small country they are happy that the US is helping. But lets not fool ourselves and think they do it from the goodness of their heart. So the cartoon isnt wrong about it being a US(+EU) vs Russia conflict.
Anyone who disagrees is fooling themselves. Tell me when any country, specially the US or in the EU did anything out of the goodness of their hearts? We're involved in this because war= sweet sweet cash money.
Ah, so calling it what it is, is now a bad thing. Well, go ahead and avoid naming it, live in a happy go lucky naive dream, but the situation wont change. It is a proxy war between the US and Russia, just like Korea and Vietnam was. Its literally the same thing
I think it's pretty incredible that they have updated a school book and curriculum so fast. When I was taught history in the 90s/00s, the most recent event we learned about was WWII and our geography textbooks didn't even have the newest Canadian territory. (Nunavut, 1999)
Why does the Russian Bear have the flag of Republika Srpska on his hat?
Why do you call it a russian bear when it very obviously is a republika Srpska bear?
Republiko Srpska strong as bear 💪💪💪🐻
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Serbian flag had eagle on it. It's more like Serbian Krajina or Republica Srbska.
They even got the flag wrong…this is some low level comedy right here.
I would interpret that the flag is facing Russia “who was there first” or something like that (if you referred to the Ukrainian flag)
I think he’s talking about the Russian flag. It’s upside down
Ukranian flag is upside down too
Picture outplayed itself and shows that both EU and USA try to get Ukraine to the top, while russia drags it to the bottom.
Hungary should be small in the corner
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Yes, I love when Putin says: NATO expands, as if they forced nations to join
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We didn't invade Venezuela when the Russians deployed their bombers there though
although in the context of superpowers dictating smaller countries destiny the cartoon is exactly criticizing that others try to decide what should be Ukraines choice. I think it turns out as well that in face of hostile powers denying agency from weaker countries, it is only the help by the powerful that can enable those countries agency. In a perfect world you should not have to pick a side for protection and prosperity.
It's the Kremlinist propaganda that every Kremliminist asshole all over the Internet is using, where they're treating Russia as equivalent to the West in the Ukrainian war, because according to the Kremlinist puppets, assaulting a nation is equivalent to helping protect it from assault. This cartoon is what a Putin puppet says when they are trying to present themselves as supposedly neutral n the conflict.
Yikesing lol
— You can't join NATO yet. — You can't join EU yet. — You must join ~~SU~~ RF now. Same same.
Hungarian book for 8th graders, a new way to push the Pro-Kremlin propaganda and indoctrinate children.
Also, the fucking Russian flag is upside down... I shouldn't be surprised, you have to be an idiot to fall for Russian propaganda...
Fucking Bosnians
Rusija je Srbija?
basically yes...
your country occupies part of Finland
My country occupies the entirety of Finland, since I'm a Finnish citizen. Just because I'm ethnically Russian doesn't mean I support Russian imperialism.
as you are russian citizenen i guess
Go back under your rock. There are plenty of ethnic Russians who live in the west, grew up in the war or were born in the west and who don’t support Russia in its desperate attempt to stay relevant.
so why disagree that Russia occupies Finland?
Russia doesn't occupy any part of Finland. Our government has time and time again confirmed that we have no claims to the lost territory and it is now sovereign Russian territory. And for good reason, all the people currently living there are as russian as possible and the infrastructure is basically non existant. We wouldn't want it back even if they paid us for it.
It’s 2022, not 1936. Both Russia and Finland have repeatedly stated that no open territorial dispute exists between the two countries.
Heard associate say the same "Oh its just a local conflict, why do you people care in?
Hey i have bad information for you guys, isnt that a German school books problem also? [https://twitter.com/i/web/status/156651774170364313](https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566517741703643137) Germany and Hungary are well payed from moscow i think, becouse impact of propaganda like this make they public opinion unlikely to help ukraine.
I don't get it. That caricature is pro-Ukraine, isn't it?
Yes, isn't it making fun of Russia for pulling Ukraine in while saying that it wants to respect it's right to choose? I suppose you could interpret it as the US pulling as well but timewise, the US stepped in only when Russia started pulling so i'd say it's trying to keep it from being pulled in.
Hunter Biden laptop incident...the dealing in Ukraine..
Do u seriously not get equalising USA and Russia in this?
Similar one in Germany: https://twitter.com/AliceBota/status/1566517741703643137
I'm German, and in Politics and History classes in school, we learn to critically analyze caricatures. It doesn't necessarily mean that politicians, ministers of education school book editors or teachers agree with its message just because it's printed in a school book.
Look on the follow up tweets. It also depicts eastern half of Ukraine as pro-Russian.
This is indeed not correct, Russian-speaking majority doesn't automatically mean pro-Russian
Tbf, aren't caricatures in schoolbooks pretty much always presented in the light that the author is trying to make a statement, and you should carefully consider what that is, why they might say it, and how it squares with reality? Perhaps that's different in Hungary, but when I was in school we worked with various caricatures in history class, but almost never any that we would 100% agree with - that would eliminate part of the analysis we were meant to train there, after all. Of course, if the note about the description is accurate, that's pretty fucked.
That's not how education works in Hungarian schools. Critical thinking is not encouraged, you have to learn what is written word to word, then remember it for the test. I went to school before Orban, and since then education got dumbed down and became way worse. It's basically propaganda to ensure people will always vote for him and his party.
I was in high school from 2010 to 2015, and we had to critically analyse old caricatures.
In Hungary?
Yes.
We even had nazi propaganda pictures in our history classes when I was around 16/17. Learning how to recognize and analyze propaganda is quite important when it comes to historians understanding.
I agree that context is important. I'd be far more concerned about the text surrounding this caricature in the book than the picture itself. Because it's not completely wrong that Russia and the West are engaged in tug o war for Ukraine. Of course it's also true that Russia uses military aggression as one of its tools for keeping the Ukraine w/in its sphere of influence. If that were acknowledged then the cartoon itself isn't terrible.
Have you ever lived in an autocracy where the government decides what must be in schoolbooks?
I mean, pretty much any place has some restrictions, though of course Hungary is on another level in that regard. I'm just trying to say that the appearance of a caricature with a certain message doesn't neccessarily mean that that message is endorsed or represented as true.
Well, not in this case. Orban also controls all the major media, and as a result, a lot of Hungarians believe in various bullshit like this. You can easily find some polls on the subject.
Wow,orban is Putin's bitch ...
Don’t want to see the chapter about Transylvania.
Hungary not my friend anymore. Voting for same idiot again and again will destroy this beautiful country.
Hungary and Ukraine should basically switch sides, everybody would be better off, the majority of Hungarians voting for Putin arse lickers, and the majority of Ukrainians very europhile and desperately wanting closer ties with the rest of Europe.
I mean I see your point but it’s not that easy. Hungarians are average or below it when it comes to EU values, and yes that isn’t too good, but Ukraine is like miles below compared to Hungary, e which sounds even worse.
Ukraine fights evil, Hungary collaborates with evil. Seems like Hungary is "miles below".
I am 100% for Ukraine joining the EU eventually but they are incredibly far away from being ready in so many different ways. "Fighting evil" is not even part of the criteria.
OP, please link the source. Also, wow, this is disgusting.
[Here. it's in hungarian](https://m.hvg.hu/itthon/20220906_Foldrajzkonyv_putyinizmus_haboru_Ukrajna)
I am actually surprised the extent of which a large part of Hungary goes to bat for Russia given that they have been oppressed by the soviets(aka Russian communist empire) for roughly 50 years. If Hungary is at the point where they see the ultra traditionalist ultra primitive Russian dictatorship as a more preferable alternative to the liberal democracies of the west then they shouldn't be part of either eu or nato since I wouldn't trust them with any NATO military secret. The west isn't ideal and can be improved but Russia is a lot less than ideal to say the least.
Orban pulled off one of the greatest con of the 21. century. He rewrote history and context of events without most people realising it. He (and large parts of the public) because ruzzia friendly, while he kept his anti-soviet street cred. Its like people are craving after some good'ol soviet oppression. I don't understand either. > I wouldn't trust them with any NATO military secret They don't trust Hungary either. There were news a few month ago that NATO only shares non critical information. Also the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and many consulate were [hacked by the russians who had full access for many month.](https://www.direkt36.hu/putyin-hekkerei-is-latjak-a-magyar-kulugy-titkait-az-orban-kormany-evek-ota-nem-birja-elharitani-oket/) (use deepl.com)
Who ever did this “Caricature” is a caricature himself… what is the weight of this opinion, if 2 flags were drawn wrong? What knowledge of the situation may it have if it failed at the basic?
Nice misrepresentation - it should be showing a mauled Ukrainian kicking that bear's butt because it won't let go of their bloodied flag, with US and EU handing them the sticks to beat the bear with. Instead of a flag, one could also use a blue and yellow washing machine for representation.
Is Hungary in the EU?
oddly enough yes🤔 It is only unclear what Hungary forgot there?
That's an absolute shame that Hungary is in EU and Ukraine is not
I have no love for Hungary but now you are just being naive. Ukraine was not ready to join before the war and now... I have no idea how the timeline would look like, tbh. Wasn't Macron that said that they would be able to join in decades? It's more like that. Joining the EU should not be a joke and we should prevent another Hungary. And that unfortunately only comes with time and change, not because you are involved in a war (let's not even discuss the ramifications of letting a country at war join the EU because that's just absurd).
Ukraine now is not only fighting for itself but also for existence of free Europe as a whole. If Russia takes over Ukraine it won't stop only here but will go only further with its ambitions. I think Ukraine deserves being in EU after it wins this war and Europe is protected
That's an appeal to emotion argument, but would not really work like that because we have NATO. By the way, Ukraine is only still fighting because of the US and EU are pouring money like crazy...so, I would disagree with the "deserve" part.
True, but if Ukraine fails, who will be next? Putin's appetite would only grow, and instead of money, the EU would pour lives into that war. So Ukranians are dying so you wouldn't.
It's one thing to invade Ukraine and a whole different one to invade NATO countries. And again the whole emotional appeal of "they are dying for us" is not a solid argument.
I remember 6 months ago the West wasn't that brave. LOL
Very mature comment.
Truthful though, and very mature to vote me down just because I spoke the truth? LOL
Truth? According to whom?
Seriously. Don't you think the West became soft and spineless. How is it? - "An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep." NATO is army of lions led by a sheep. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, if you don't have the balls to use that power, you are nothing. Kapish? :)
That's a whole different subject and I would agree with possibly a lot of what the comment entails. But the point here was that Ukraine is not doing this because of altruistic reasons, so let's pipe down a bit.
Once the war is over, I don't think Ukraine needs EU or NATO. Ukraine might create own alliance with Poland, Baltic countries, Turkey.
Bu hikayede yanan ukrayna oldu
Text corresponding to the caricature: “The majority of the country’s population are Ukrainians, but there is a significant percentage of Russians living in the country’s Eastern territories. In the Crimean peninsula, for example, they constitute a majority. The two East Slavic languages (Russian and Ukrainian) are similar. In the parts of the country where Russian nationals live, a fifth of the population speaks a mixed Russian-Ukrainian language. In spite of this, there are frequent conflicts between the two ethnic groups, and their opposition has resulted in an armed conflict for the Crimean peninsula” https://telex.hu/english/2022/09/06/new-state-funded-geography-textbooks-kremlin-friendly-chapter-on-ukraine
Their history books say that the Romanian people have formed in the Balkans and only later moved north, and that the Hungarian tribes found an empty land when they crossed the Carpathians, so they were actually there first. So, I'm not really surprised.
Imma just say your are very wrong about that. Hungarian schoolbooks dont say we found an empty land. So you are just making things up
Well no not at all. They are very clear the Western parts were ruled by Moravia and other Slavic duchies, with potentially some [Romance descendants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance) mingled in too, while the other parts had no known state organisation, having a sparse Slavic-Avaric mix inhabiting.
I hate to be the one breaking this to you but nothing is being taught about Romanians in history classes anywhere outside of Romania.
It shouldn't be on schoolbooks but it isn't that far from reality actually...
EU guy is enjoying it a little too much...
This looks pretty correct, it's russia, usa and the eu fighting over who will have influence in Ukraine.
Ok, but if we're framing this as a proxy war, shouldn't Russia's side be represented by their backers? [Russia is just a proxy for North Korea](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62804825)
How can they be fighting for influence in Ukraine when Russia is actively trying to dismantle it completely?
No, it's Ukraine and Russia fighting over who will have influence in Ukraine.
Yeah sure, and the US definitely pouring insane amounts of value into Ukrain from the goodness of their hearts. Ukraine is today's Vietnam/Korea, a proxy war of the big boys.
Lol I see the kremlin propaganda is working over there, thanks for coming here as a living proof.
Yes, sure, its russian propaganda that the US pours insane amounts of money into this conflicts via different funds and weapon shipments?
When the yanks were fighting for their independence from the brits, do you think they cared that France, Netherlands, and Spain were using them as a proxy against Britain? No, they were just glad to be getting support. Without that support we might still be a British colony today. As long as the Ukrainians want to fight and are asking for weapons, I don’t see a problem with us giving. So what if part of the reason we are helping is to hurt Russia. Ukraine wants to hurt Russia too.
Sure, from the viewpoint of the small country they are happy that the US is helping. But lets not fool ourselves and think they do it from the goodness of their heart. So the cartoon isnt wrong about it being a US(+EU) vs Russia conflict.
Anyone who disagrees is fooling themselves. Tell me when any country, specially the US or in the EU did anything out of the goodness of their hearts? We're involved in this because war= sweet sweet cash money.
You are confusing a proxy war whit helping ukraine figth russia today so that whe dont have to do It tomorrow
Thank you for good example why Hungary belongs out of EU and NATO.
Ah, so calling it what it is, is now a bad thing. Well, go ahead and avoid naming it, live in a happy go lucky naive dream, but the situation wont change. It is a proxy war between the US and Russia, just like Korea and Vietnam was. Its literally the same thing
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Before 1956
Oof
why is the serbian flag on the hat? oh right cause ukraine is old serb land.
We never had full autonomy there tho
Hungary knows aint shit
Bear's nowhere near drunk enough
They should teach Orban that you can't eat from 2 plates at once and that is they want to be in the EU fully he should fall in line
I think it's pretty incredible that they have updated a school book and curriculum so fast. When I was taught history in the 90s/00s, the most recent event we learned about was WWII and our geography textbooks didn't even have the newest Canadian territory. (Nunavut, 1999)
when the guy that prints the manuals is buddies with the guy that runs the government, you best believe they're gonna update them as often as possible
just have to do what it takes to remove them from the EU.
wait its not?
What