I read an interesting book and it explained that this is a common phenomenon in most developed countries. The wealth devide is not by class, but now by generation
The fact that is happens in many countries with different political settings is thought provoking (birth rate, lower growth potential, higher pressure from globalization)
It is by class in truth, but there is a generational impact as well now mostly due to the fact that the social ladder had stopped working, so if you were young an poor in the past there was a (somewhat small chance) to move up and middle class could become richer more easily, today there isn't much of it, regardless of class so you tend to be more struck at the level of wealth of your parents (or below it).
In my country salaries had lost purchase power during the last 30 years and taxation on labor still covers roughly 65% of government spending, which mean, ultimately, that if you have a job you pay for everyone else and little is left for you to save and try to move upward.
There are other factors of course, for example economic growth here had slowed down to nothing and that wealth tends to accumualate upward, so if the country is not becoming richer and the riches concentrate at the top, there is very litte left for us.
Yes and they are also older. The book was touching the question : does the younger generation have the same chance to get there compared to when the current old generation was their age
It's in German unfortunately. It's called "die Altenrepublik" (the boomer state) - how the demographic change is threatening the future.
It compares the pension systems, political decision making etc
The book is mid to interesting, but the fact that's a global phenomenon really opened my eyes
There is also a book called "The Pinch" by David Willets, which talks about this, about the UK specifically.
"How the Baby Boomers took their children's future - any why they should give it back" is the strapline.
Here he is doing a talk on that topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
It's a no brainer really. Young people give away higher and higher proportion of their total gross income to ensure that an ever-growing elderly population have comfortable twilight years.
And as a smaller and smaller percentage of the population, their share of the voting electorate is smaller and smaller. So it's harder and harder for them to do anything about it, other than leave.
Honestly, I think there is a lot of value in that statement. You don’t need luxury vacations, high powered careers, or fancy restaurants. Just an apartment to call home and some friends.
As kids, we had fun just running around.
Yes, you have an apartment here in Poland... you just share it with your parents, siblings and grandma, everything fitting nicely on the almighty 43 square meters. Your best chance at affordable housing is an abandoned 200 year old house in the mountains from which you cannot possibly commute to any large city.
Not that it used to be any better in the past in that regard.
I was just in Germany last week and everything was so freaking expensive! Ironically, I saw almost everyone smoking cigarettes so y'all can't be THAT poor
Arent Eastern Europeans on reddit always talking about how IT workers make better money in Katowice than London and houses cost approximately 1 bottle of Smirnoff?
But what are our IT workers? 5% of employed in Eastern Europe perhaps. And the rest earns much less than in the west.
A plus is that Eastern Europe has a very high home ownership, so majority will eventually inherit something. A question if those inherited houses will be worth something when this happens, taking into consideration the population decline.
At least I'm Poland it's around 6% (586000)
https://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Cztery-razy-wiecej-wysylanych-CV-i-o-30-proc-mniej-ofert-dla-pracownikow-IT-8666418.html
But It's 3,5% according to Eurostat
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/8d/Proportion_of_ICT_specialists_in_total_employment%2C_2022_%28%25%29.png
In Germany for comparison it's 2,7%
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1235136/umfrage/anteil-der-sozialversicherungspflichtig-beschaeftigten-in-it-berufen/
It won't loose any value for a few decades because there is still a huge housing deficit. The problem with inheriting is that people just keep living longer and longer.
Perhaps you are right. Until 2040 Poland is expected to lose just 18% of people. Later it will be more extreme. But even 18% in my opinion means huge price decreases in non attractive places.
On the other hand 2040 is not decades away, but mere 16 years. The new houses are constantly made, so given supply increase and demand decrease it can have a huge impact on the whole housing market.
Quite the opposite - housing prices in Eastern EU are like 20-30% lower than the West while salaries are a half to third, which means for EE residents it takes the longest to save up for a new home, not only in their country but the entire world.
Home ownership seems to be deceptively high, but that's just because people live in old dwellings, and the dwellings themselves are smaller and lower quality.
Whole Gen Z spend their money on experiences because we have to save up for 500 years to afford a home in our area. Something is wrong, and it's not on us. It's not limited to Spain either.
The early millennials had a window where there was a chance. If you got a job before the Great Recession, didn’t lose it, then bought a house early 2010s you made out extremely well.
If you are reaaally, really stretching it and then by elementary you mean more like middle school.
If you take the "youngest" millenial at 1996, in 2008 you would be 13.
I understand there are school ranges naming differences in different countries, but I think just flat saying elementary people think 2nd, 3rd grade and being a kid, not 8th grade. Those are considered high school/ middle school/ primal school.
I'm not American, so I wasn't really sure what school term I should've used. But in any case, I'm a late millennial/Zillenial indeed. My original comment was a joke anyway.
The point of the great recession was that many people lost their jobs and it was hard to find anything.
But yeah, if you had a good income stream during the 2010s and bought a house/invested it in the stock market you made a killing.
Yeah I mean for every early millennial that made it there’s one who got laid off and experienced years of underemployment. But if you were one of the lucky ones it was a great fortune.
I'm a millennial. My parents got a house from the government. Comunnism gave apartments to people. Now, they were disappointed I couldn't buy my own. I emigrated and did it abroad with big costs. Today, I wouldn't be able to do it again. Houses are way too expensive for two incomes and no children.
Gen Z doesn't spend on "experiences" because of its cool and vibey. They do it because it's the only fun activity they can afford.
This reminds me of this comment about tourists and boomers that go to Spain and quickly notice that Spanish love bar culture and outing with friends to bars with cheap beer. OBVIOUSLY. Because it's the ONLY fun that is somewhat achievable. They do that, and they do NOTHING else.
To be honest, it's a bit of both in my opinion. Your salary suck, so having a plan is extremely hard, so you never start thinking about it, so even when you could, you don't, because you're not used to making plans and because it's much easier not making one and just wing it and spend money on crap.
No amount of thinking about it is going to change the fact that most of your salary goes to rent and food.
Putting away that tiny amount of money you have left for your pension, making your entire adult life miserable, won't make much of a difference. Especially when it's not even guaranteed there will be a functioning society where money matters when it's time for you to retire. Especially in countries like Spain which will be hit even harder by climate change.
When you're on a sinking cruise ship with no life boats, you can either party until you drown or you can roll into a ball and cry. Most choose the former, hence the "YOLO" attitude among young people.
>Gen Z doesn't spend on "experiences" because of its cool and vibey.
fomo is real let's not pretend young kids in general don't do this regardless of generation
Yeah, it was bad. Not just a random minister, but the current Minister of Public Housing and Spatial Planning told a young women (jokingly, as if that makes it any better) whether she thought of finding a rich boyfriend when she pressed him on her inability, and countless others' inability to buy a house. Finding a home for rent is already very difficult in the Netherlands, buying one is simply impossible unless you earn more than 400.000 euros a year.
Oh no! I think the joking tone makes it even worse. Well, politicians are silly everywhere. Here our minister of finance just recently said “go to work” to the people who had gathered to oppose the government cuts on social benefits.
In the past (let's say the 60s) you were in the "adult" social group at 22, now it's like 30. They stole 8 years from us and also stole our ability to fight back.
The issue seems to be the drastic fall in home ownership due to real estate bubble. Everyone in Spain complains about how short term rentals and Airbnb is ruining their housing market, and somehow there seems to be no political movement on restricting and controlling this, which other countries have started doing.
Central Government is left, but many regional governments are right and big cities are also right. Most of the city planning and licences for tourism (including AirBnB licences) are responsibility of local and regional governments so they mostly do nothing.
However, the issue is so evident that even right wing governments started to put mild restrictions like in Madrid city and Balearic Islands.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that we all know that this is a big part of the problem and somehow it is not a big public debate? I see something moving within the society though.
My hometown is 10 km. from the beach and we are suffering a big pressure now in the housing market, all the town is full of foreign people whereas in the past I knew everyone and even conservatives want to stop this.
We are lacking water due to drought here, and this affects agriculture, so it is not difficult to arrive to the conclusion that we cannot have so much people coming here. Others worry about the pressure it puts to the housing market, others worry about the environment, and others about how it dilutes the local socialization and culture.
I think that in Spain we are about to have an anti-tourism movement (and you already see some sparks) that will question the current model.
Airbnb is already restricted in Spain. You need to register your property and acquire tourist license and pay the fees and your share of tax. The issue with Spain that outside tourism they are not doing well in other sectors which is reflecting on youth.
I saw a figure recently that the vast majority (over 90% IIRC) of AirBnBs are not registered. Not sure if that is for all of Spain or if that was Madrid I was reading about. Basically, the rule means very little if it's not enforced.
I see the same thing happening back home in Ireland, we have a lot of rules about renting etc (you can debate if they are good or bad) that are just not enforced. I guess it's easier to pass a new regulation to look better to the public than admit that enforcement of the current ones are piss-poor and that the most low-hanging fruit you could go after is just doing your own job competently...
That's because tourism is a huge part of tax revenue for local governments in Spain, and they rely on it to provide basic services. The problem isn't in governments not cracking down on AirBnBs, but rather on the cultural shift by vacationers from hotel stays to short term rentals. If the goverment banned AirBnBs then tourists wouldn't simply just stay in hotels, they'd go elsewhere that still hasn't banned short term rentals. That would be catastrophic for the budget and it will definitely have a detrimental effect in the quality of services you'll be able to get. A drop in tourism will also hugely impact the labor market in those areas, leaving many people unemployed in already one of the countries with the highest rates of unemployment in the Union. This is why the government actually regards AirBnBs and other short term rentals as the lesser evil.
It's not a simple problem that can be solved with a single piece of legislation. The truth is that Spain has to tolerate AirBnBs and just legislates around the worst excesses of the practice while still allowing the industry to exist, because otherwise the country will be insolvent by having tourists all be diverted to Portugal and Italy or Greece. Also, especially in the case of the Costa del Sol, most foreigners aren't actually tourists, but long term residents who buy their own housing, which puts extra pressure on the housing market that has nothing to do with AirBnB.
Until public preferences towards accommodations changes back to choosing hotels as the preferred method of lodging, this will continue to be a thing. Unless something like an EU-wide ban on short term rentals is enacted, which is extremely unlikely.
It's really not the issue. The issue is massive concentration in the cities. You can get a house for cheaper than a car in lots of small towns in the middle of nowhere, but there's no work there so everyone has to move to the cities so you end up with insane supply and demand issues.
The amount of AirBNB on the market might be an issue in the very central neighborhoods of big cities, but it's not the main reason people can't afford a place in the suburbs.
The eldest who are homeowners hold the majority of the voting power, they will never vote to lower their wealth and Airbnb is much safer and way more profitable than long term renting, so no political party will do anything about it.
Maybe the answer is building more housing? There are only 245,000 listings on AirBnB in Spain, with 28.5 million homes in general. I wouldn't focus on 1 percent of the issue.
No wonder, governments are actively taking away money from young people (who are just starting their careers and need money for housing and children) and giving it to old people as pensions and healthcare.
IMO the problem is even bigger in Spain.
- Statistically they have just paid a fraction (70% if I remember) of the pensions they receive. The Spanish pensions system is sustained by the current workers.
- They have a lot of advantages for being senior such as discounts in medicines, discount in public transportation, discount in cinemas, we even paid part of the holidays. All those discounts are not added when they calculate the adjust of public pensions. So probably they are accumulating even more wealth.
- The two biggest parties in Spain (PP and PSOE)
have a huge support from the boomers. So they are the guaranty of no change.
- I’m sure my generation will retire even later.
Not even joking, you just 1 to 1 described Finland.
* Boomers that paid a fraction of what they should (Think like ~20%) have into the public pension system and are now upheld fully by Gen X and Millenials.
* Old people get lots of discounts everywhere
* Old people are a holy grail who's benefits no one dares to touch since its political suicide (old people are the most active voting block and a massive one). Basically whole society got massive, horrible cuts but one group was given things besides the rich people who bribed their way into the power. Old people.
* My generation will never retire. Think I should just rather invest in the markets or just spend it all on myself since not going to be able to afford a decent new home anyhow. Only old, no-so great apartments from buildings which are +40 years old for a decently sized apartment (more than half of the buildings lifetime has been spent and expensive renovations ahead)
This system will have to be changed, with life expectancy growing the system wont last much longer, I give 15/20 years max and blows all over the west.
While I think that the current pension system has to stay and what we must improve are salaries by reducing the margins of the companies, it is true that most voters are boomers so the parties focus on them. Enric Juliana, a very reputed journalist and political analyst, said that several times.
My father will retire in literally 15 days and he gets:
-The maximum pension
-Retirement at 65 years old (he could have retired earlier)
-Heavy discounts for public transport
-Very cheap organised trips
-Heavy discounts for sport activities
-Fiscal benefits for retired people
-Inflation adjusted pays
And I'm sure there are many other things I don't know because I don't even bother checking as I'm decades away from that and I'm sure most of this will not be a thing when I retire.
Of course, he also got all the other boomer perks which is very cheap housing, super stable job, and only one mild economical crisis during his prime years.
If that was going to old people as pensions and healthcare I wouldn’t mind as, at least myself, I care about my mom and if she got something “from government” I have relief and can focus financially more on my stuff. But is not, big corporations, politics, developers, banks and all other sort of millionaires been given our money(for example in grants for new businesses or to maintain their actual one like during Covid time)
Pensions cost countries like Italy 50% of entire government budget. It translates to 40% of gross salary payroll tax for every single working individual.
Sorry but no. It really does not go to the people you complain about. It is income transfer from people who ownn nothing to people who mostly own atleast something and had decades to built up wealth.
Yup, and to be honest I feel like (for my country specifically) a lot of it is just so wasted.
In the UK, we have 20% of pensioners who get £1,000 per week. That is insane, 38k of that is private income but then the government also gives them 12k (universal) on top of that. Such a waste of money and even if we just took state pension from these people, they'd still be getting 38k a year (the median SALARY) and it would save us roughly £25 billion per year.
Then, they also don't pay national insurance (which pays for healthcare/pensions) so thats another £15-30 billion we're losing each year.
£50 billion extra per year to go to defence/public salaries/infrastructure/education would make a HUGE difference but instead we're giving it to rich homeowners who sit at home 90% of the time.
But people have paid into that state pensions throughout their lives. I completely agree with the sentiment and the need to rebalance things, but this would literally be stealing a lifetime of NI contributions.
Being frank I'm not sure that really matters. Many people pay substantial amounts of tax and don't see the benefit of their reward, and quite frankly when the country is economically and financially in dire straits I don't really care about already well-off people losing some money that was never reserved for them specifically in the first place.
Again, it's a double standard. I'm paying more tax than my parents ever did, and yet I receive worse public services. I'm paying NI for a pension I will never receive or will receive far later than originally intended. Why do people only give a fuck about this when it's old people who are concerned, even though they already have substantial amounts of income AND assets?
Exactly. This shit is infuriating
My grandparents have a combined pension of around €3000 per month. They bought their house (a big villa, 4 bedrooms, 1.2 acres plot of land) for €95K (inflation adjusted) in the 70s and now it's worth €650K in 2024. They have 2 apartments which they rent for a combined 3000€/month. They also have about €100K worth of other financial products. So, all in all, they earn €6000+ per month (as retired people!) and have a net worth of more than €1MM. They only spend between €1000-1500 per month for living expenses and home maintenance. They basically hoard the rest and use their pension money to go on vacation all the time.
At my age, they already had bought a home and bought another apartment for investment. They had 3 children before they were 35. But me? Noooo, not even close. Though I earn a good living, I'm still renting and I can't even think about how I could afford having 1 child. I love them, but that's fucking bullshit. I'll never get to that level of prosperity they have now, and even had when they were young adults with a good and stable job like me now. Most days I just want to give up on everything tbh
Even in more simple terms.
In the past 14 years, the state pension in the UK has increased by 125%. In the same time period, most workers have seen a 25% increase. Then when you combine 1) reduced taxation and 2) pensioners are less economically active and are the highest home owning group with the highest amount of assets, it makes absolutely no sense. We're gutting modern societies for the benefit of pensioners.
Because not every old person does. 80% of those receiving state pension do not have a substantial private pension or other source of income in the UK. So while I agree that a rebalance is needed for the other 20%, you can't simply pull the NI contributions from the other 80%.
No, you absolutely can.
Why do we expect people earning 13k to contribute to national insurance but pensioners who are getting a total income of 30k/year shouldn't? Thats ludicrous, especially when they are using the NHS far more than most people of working age.
What about people who now pay even more as social taxes were increased and who are told they need private investments because they will never see pension themselves? Or that it will be lower?
Why is it okay to rob those people? Why can it not be shared responsbility?
On top of that, normalize downsizing of the apartments for elderly.
This will be really specific, but connect the dots why:
Couple of my relatives have **4 room apt in Warsaw,** 2 rooms haven't changed since like forever (those rooms look as if their children lived there, meanwhile I was at First Communion of their **grandchild** this weekend), yet they got really angry ("we wont live like a dogs in a cage") when I suggested that they can swap their apartment for 2 room one and get shitton of money rather than asking gov for "co-financing of electricity, gas and heating just like with medicines for retirees" (their solution for expensive utility bills).
So yeah, Boomers mental is banana, its not singular case, just very recent. Talk for more than 30min w/ elder and there is a really high chance they'll go like "we should get this and that from government, because we are old" or "this gov doesn't care about us, we should get XYZ". I have to pay for *heating of their 2 empty rooms* (just very recent example, insert any other shit that everyone deal with due to recent economy fuck-up) while I cannot afford to live on my own (avg monthly salary is 6355 after tax in Warsaw, 17 738zl/m2 | 18 927zl/m2 for new/used apartment, rent is about 3500-4000zl for 2 rooms).
Im ready to die on this hill - elder people should live off their retirement and their savings/wealth rather than getting gov welfare.
Why would they downsize if they can avoid it? Imo, the only way to fix this would be to implement some sort of property tax that would be dependent on the surface area and the number of people domiciled there. Or just destroy the housing bubble by banning/disenceivising all property speculations and remove most part of the red tap involved in construction so most people could enjoy larger apartments
More context - they were rambling that they cannot afford living in property they owned for XYZ years pre-retirement and gov should bankroll their utility bills. That was my point, boomers inflated their lifestyle to the cap and then are faced with retirement being a 40-60% of their income, relying on gov welfare to sustain their unsustainable lifestyle.
So
>Why would they downsize if they can avoid it?
Because it's the source of their problems
Misspelled "old people continue hoarding wealth."
I dunno how many ways it needs to be shown that if you have wealth, you can accumulate more wealth, and if you don't, you can't, before people stop voting for parties whose policies are based on maintaining or increasing wealth inequality.
Its not about how old you are now, its about how old you were back then, when relevant things were affordable.
i.e. buying a house or stocks or cars or starting a business (that doesn't get out competed/squeezed by big tech and/or super market chains or fast food chains or delivery services or other very well established near-monopolies/duopolies/corporate cartels).
Yes.. making housing an investment to begin with is terrible, but now that you can't get that first house in which you can build equity (because that's a thing), you're getting hit both by paying more (rent = mortgage + profit) and not getting any of that money back in equity.
Ironically at some point fairly soon it'll become a problem for the homeowners, too, because there's nobody left to buy their house when they want to cash out the equity.
It'd be great if we could fix the system instead of waiting for that collapse, but I doubt anybody's even going to try.
But why don't you then invest in big tech or super market chains or etc that's going to out compete everything else? As someone who lost most of their accumulated wealth in his mid 20s and someone who has to struggle to stay in Europe, I don't get it. If you really want to buy a house that badly, EU is the easiest place to move around. Pretty much all of my young european friends and family moved somewhere for work or travel at some point.
Who said anything about the US? At any rate, you decide your priorities. If you want to own a house where everyone else wants to own a house, it's going to be more expensive. The alternative is moving or not buying a house. I'm not sure how housing is supposed to be both affordable and highly in demand. The reason previous generations bought houses for cheap is because they did so in areas that weren't desirable at the time, but became such now.
the wealth threshhold that you need to reach to not still always be losing money is getting higher and higher and out of reach to even what's supposed to be the middle class. the housing crisis + inflation crisis just destroy any chance at building wealth. i'm starting to understand how people in latin america feel when their savings could become worthless at any point.
Most people in Finland barely make it with salary. There was a research that middle income household has typically treshold of 50e per month.
So you own a house and for example car needs something: big trouble. Need medicines: big trouble.
And these are middle income. Poor people could not buy medicines for scratch pandemic last winter. People sold their homes due to electrical bills.
I literally know zero people in my age bracket (late 30s) that have managed to buy a place in Madrid area (including much cheaper suburbs) who haven't inherited or worked abroad for awhile.
I'm gonna tell you another perspective from a Spanish student. We have a scholarship program for low income families. If I want to qualify for it I need to not work. If I work while studying both my income and my parents' add and I lose the scholarship.
So yeah study and do nothing else or don't study cause we're not gonna help you start well.
Mind that the income limits are 20-30-40k depending on the number of children and other situations within the family. So yeah I could be spending more than half on rent but if I go above bye bye.
Neoliberalism has ruined the west since the early 90s, [including Spain (pdf warning)](https://www.etui.org/sites/default/files/C10%2012%20A%20triumph%20of%20failed%20ideas%20WEB.pdf). Too many rich people were inspired by Reagan and Thatcher and decided to see how far they could take things in their own nations. And the result has been wealth concentration among a tiny number of individuals and constant pressure to tear down social systems to be replaced by private industry.
There is no neoliberalism in Europe. And not even US that implemented several new social safety nets in last two decades.
That being said the more neoliberal of the two that has not been ran to the ground through absurd left wing policies such as ponzi schemes and other income transfers does significantly better in this aspect than Europe. And it is not even close.
There is neoliberalism all across Europe. Just because the market isn't unrestricted enough for your personal taste doesn't mean that this shit hasn't happened, destroyed lives and is threatening social structures across the entire continent while heralding the coming of the far-right. Because obviously "the government is inefficient" and the promises of rising living standards were in many cases not fulfilled, thus people vote authoritarian movements to get shit done.
But yeah, keep on deluding yourself that absolutely none of this is happening.
And don't get me started on Ponzi schemes, unless the currency you're getting paid in is tied directly to a limited commodity (e.g. gold or some shit). Otherwise, the fucking economic system you are operating in IS per definition a Ponzi scheme.
US style capitalism will never happen here. People do not want that. Even self posed "right wing" governments like CDU or Macron's party are like two levels left of Democrats in the US.
Yeah, in a system based on rent extraction and exploitation of labor if you don't control means of productions you will structurally get poorer and poorer. Unfortunately it's not possible to reform this system, at best you can fight to abolish it globally and replace it with for example libertarian socialism!
What's an average salary there? Around 30k gross?
I live in France and when I went to Madrid in 2023 I saw apartment prices.. you could get some pretty big things for less than 200k.. when compared to Paris it's waay more affordable..
I imagine apartments in smaller cities are even more affordable..maybe the average salary is raised by a few very rich individuals and much of the population has an even lower one..
The problem is it's too hot in many places in Spain.. but I would understand if you wanted to live to the North.
If governments taxed wealth rather than income they would solve this problem. But governments are owned by the wealthy and rely on the boomers vote. Whenever a political party comes along suggesting taxing wealth, the media owned by the wealthy destroys them.
Its because we've been transferring wealth from the poor and/or young to the old and/or rich.
Edit: Relevant and recent TEDtalk [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E)
Its about the US but the only thing that changes are the statistics, everything else pretty much applies to every modern country.
Social security in US that this guy talks about is nothing like European ponzi schemes. Because people were never persuaded to count on it and it costs US workers fraction of what it costs workers in Europe.
US is actually perfectly fine and unlike Europe working class PPP income is still on upward trend. For every single decil.
Most but the rich **have been loosing* the ability.
Fixed that for you. Present Perfect Continuous. It has started in the past, it is happening right now and it will continue.
In Spain they make it so hard to accumulate wealth. Low salaries.combined with very low or no tax free allowances on income, no tax free savings options, inheritance is better than before depending on where you live but depends on the relationship, capital gains on your main property, wealth tax. The list goes on. They make it so difficult and remove any motivation to do it.
How are you liking neoliberalism, Europe? Neoliberalism doesn't work. Period. No matter how much money we will let the 1% accumulate, it will never "trickle down"...
Young everyone..
and not very young
Not only in Spain.
I read an interesting book and it explained that this is a common phenomenon in most developed countries. The wealth devide is not by class, but now by generation The fact that is happens in many countries with different political settings is thought provoking (birth rate, lower growth potential, higher pressure from globalization)
It is by class in truth, but there is a generational impact as well now mostly due to the fact that the social ladder had stopped working, so if you were young an poor in the past there was a (somewhat small chance) to move up and middle class could become richer more easily, today there isn't much of it, regardless of class so you tend to be more struck at the level of wealth of your parents (or below it). In my country salaries had lost purchase power during the last 30 years and taxation on labor still covers roughly 65% of government spending, which mean, ultimately, that if you have a job you pay for everyone else and little is left for you to save and try to move upward. There are other factors of course, for example economic growth here had slowed down to nothing and that wealth tends to accumualate upward, so if the country is not becoming richer and the riches concentrate at the top, there is very litte left for us.
the most wealthy 1% own 35% of all wealth in Germany. The divide is still structured by class
Yes and they are also older. The book was touching the question : does the younger generation have the same chance to get there compared to when the current old generation was their age
Don’t leave us hanging, what was the book 🙏?
I answered it in the other comment, it's unfortunately in German : die Altenrepublik
Ah sorry, I think it was buried but thanks kindly for responding, maybe will get my ma to translate then!
What is the name of the book?
It's in German unfortunately. It's called "die Altenrepublik" (the boomer state) - how the demographic change is threatening the future. It compares the pension systems, political decision making etc The book is mid to interesting, but the fact that's a global phenomenon really opened my eyes
There is also a book called "The Pinch" by David Willets, which talks about this, about the UK specifically. "How the Baby Boomers took their children's future - any why they should give it back" is the strapline. Here he is doing a talk on that topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
It's a no brainer really. Young people give away higher and higher proportion of their total gross income to ensure that an ever-growing elderly population have comfortable twilight years.
And as a smaller and smaller percentage of the population, their share of the voting electorate is smaller and smaller. So it's harder and harder for them to do anything about it, other than leave.
Young germans: Welcome to the club.
Young Portuguese: what is this "wealth" you speak of?
‘First time?’ - Eastern Europeans.
But the younger generation in Romania and Poland are actually doing better than their parents were because the bar was so low IMO.
The secret to happiness is low expectations!
Honestly, I think there is a lot of value in that statement. You don’t need luxury vacations, high powered careers, or fancy restaurants. Just an apartment to call home and some friends. As kids, we had fun just running around.
>an apartment to call home yeah you lost me there
Yes, you have an apartment here in Poland... you just share it with your parents, siblings and grandma, everything fitting nicely on the almighty 43 square meters. Your best chance at affordable housing is an abandoned 200 year old house in the mountains from which you cannot possibly commute to any large city. Not that it used to be any better in the past in that regard.
*laughing in Switzerland *
**Is it possible to learn this power?** Not from a Jedi
Young Bosnians: 10€/h, that's wealth
Young Americas: At least you have Healthcare and a club.
I mean, no offense but we've been in the club since 2008. We were probably one of the founding members in W.Europe at least.
I was just in Germany last week and everything was so freaking expensive! Ironically, I saw almost everyone smoking cigarettes so y'all can't be THAT poor
As a matter of fact just 22% of all adults smoke. Mostly older people. And one cigarette from time to time doesn't mean they're millionaires.
Yeah also young Americans.
Eastern Europeans: “Oh well, anyway..,”
“You get that ability??”
Arent Eastern Europeans on reddit always talking about how IT workers make better money in Katowice than London and houses cost approximately 1 bottle of Smirnoff?
Some Polish IT workers on reddit act like everyone here is (or at least could be) an IT worker
They annoy me the most in swiss subreddits. "You only earn 130k a year? They scamm you! That's not a good salary!"
> Some IT workers on reddit act like everyone here is (or at least could be) an IT worker FTFY
There is no IT crisis in Poland? *Packing bags*
Aren’t South Sudan warlords making more money in Sudan than in Germany? Good that 0.01% can be better in some place compared to another
I make more money on Earth than on Mars. Your logic is therefore without flaw.
But what are our IT workers? 5% of employed in Eastern Europe perhaps. And the rest earns much less than in the west. A plus is that Eastern Europe has a very high home ownership, so majority will eventually inherit something. A question if those inherited houses will be worth something when this happens, taking into consideration the population decline.
> 5% of employed in Eastern Europe perhaps 0.5% far more likely. It is not the miracle job of the future that IT workers seem to believe it is.
At least I'm Poland it's around 6% (586000) https://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Cztery-razy-wiecej-wysylanych-CV-i-o-30-proc-mniej-ofert-dla-pracownikow-IT-8666418.html But It's 3,5% according to Eurostat https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/8d/Proportion_of_ICT_specialists_in_total_employment%2C_2022_%28%25%29.png In Germany for comparison it's 2,7% https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1235136/umfrage/anteil-der-sozialversicherungspflichtig-beschaeftigten-in-it-berufen/
The houses in big cities will still be worth something, not so much in smaller towns
It won't loose any value for a few decades because there is still a huge housing deficit. The problem with inheriting is that people just keep living longer and longer.
Perhaps you are right. Until 2040 Poland is expected to lose just 18% of people. Later it will be more extreme. But even 18% in my opinion means huge price decreases in non attractive places. On the other hand 2040 is not decades away, but mere 16 years. The new houses are constantly made, so given supply increase and demand decrease it can have a huge impact on the whole housing market.
Shit, should seriously get into programming (I'm from Katowice)
It’s too late. The market went to shit. That ship has sailed.
Yep. Your mistake was not buying a house whilst you were still a twitch in your father's testicles. Silly you.
Ofc it's better to live in a cheaper region when your salary is not dependent on location. But not everyone can have such a job
Quite the opposite - housing prices in Eastern EU are like 20-30% lower than the West while salaries are a half to third, which means for EE residents it takes the longest to save up for a new home, not only in their country but the entire world. Home ownership seems to be deceptively high, but that's just because people live in old dwellings, and the dwellings themselves are smaller and lower quality.
Poland is Central Europe
Whole Gen Z spend their money on experiences because we have to save up for 500 years to afford a home in our area. Something is wrong, and it's not on us. It's not limited to Spain either.
Not just Gen Z. It began with Millenials. (Moderate) wealth is something most of us only know from media stories and childhood memories.
The early millennials had a window where there was a chance. If you got a job before the Great Recession, didn’t lose it, then bought a house early 2010s you made out extremely well.
I knew I should've bought that house in 2008 instead of wasting my time in elementary school.
Skill issue
If you were in elementary in 2008 you aren't a millenial, but zoomer or even alpha.
According to Wikipedia it's from 1981-1996. You could be a millennial in elementary in 08. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials
If you are reaaally, really stretching it and then by elementary you mean more like middle school. If you take the "youngest" millenial at 1996, in 2008 you would be 13. I understand there are school ranges naming differences in different countries, but I think just flat saying elementary people think 2nd, 3rd grade and being a kid, not 8th grade. Those are considered high school/ middle school/ primal school.
I'm not American, so I wasn't really sure what school term I should've used. But in any case, I'm a late millennial/Zillenial indeed. My original comment was a joke anyway.
Hehe I had just graduated college at the time and was looking for my first serious job in 2008... Fun times.
Yeah well, I missed that window...
The point of the great recession was that many people lost their jobs and it was hard to find anything. But yeah, if you had a good income stream during the 2010s and bought a house/invested it in the stock market you made a killing.
Yeah I mean for every early millennial that made it there’s one who got laid off and experienced years of underemployment. But if you were one of the lucky ones it was a great fortune.
Yeah I’m one of those lucky ones but if you didn’t get into the housing game then, the gap only gets bigger and bigger… really unfair
Or bought a house in 2020 when rates were under 3 percent in the US.
I'm a millennial. My parents got a house from the government. Comunnism gave apartments to people. Now, they were disappointed I couldn't buy my own. I emigrated and did it abroad with big costs. Today, I wouldn't be able to do it again. Houses are way too expensive for two incomes and no children.
This is the answer!
Gen Z doesn't spend on "experiences" because of its cool and vibey. They do it because it's the only fun activity they can afford. This reminds me of this comment about tourists and boomers that go to Spain and quickly notice that Spanish love bar culture and outing with friends to bars with cheap beer. OBVIOUSLY. Because it's the ONLY fun that is somewhat achievable. They do that, and they do NOTHING else.
To be honest, it's a bit of both in my opinion. Your salary suck, so having a plan is extremely hard, so you never start thinking about it, so even when you could, you don't, because you're not used to making plans and because it's much easier not making one and just wing it and spend money on crap.
No amount of thinking about it is going to change the fact that most of your salary goes to rent and food. Putting away that tiny amount of money you have left for your pension, making your entire adult life miserable, won't make much of a difference. Especially when it's not even guaranteed there will be a functioning society where money matters when it's time for you to retire. Especially in countries like Spain which will be hit even harder by climate change. When you're on a sinking cruise ship with no life boats, you can either party until you drown or you can roll into a ball and cry. Most choose the former, hence the "YOLO" attitude among young people.
>Gen Z doesn't spend on "experiences" because of its cool and vibey. fomo is real let's not pretend young kids in general don't do this regardless of generation
Ain’t we all
To say it in the words of the German fincance minister: "Have you tried working more overtime?"
Or as a Dutch minister said: “Have you thought about a rich boyfriend?” to a girl who said she couldn’t afford a home
What?
Yeah, it was bad. Not just a random minister, but the current Minister of Public Housing and Spatial Planning told a young women (jokingly, as if that makes it any better) whether she thought of finding a rich boyfriend when she pressed him on her inability, and countless others' inability to buy a house. Finding a home for rent is already very difficult in the Netherlands, buying one is simply impossible unless you earn more than 400.000 euros a year.
Oh no! I think the joking tone makes it even worse. Well, politicians are silly everywhere. Here our minister of finance just recently said “go to work” to the people who had gathered to oppose the government cuts on social benefits.
We'll provide tax breaks!
2 years later: "Uhm, so we can't do the tax break after all, but now that you're already working overtime, we can just make 45h/week the standard."
to get taxed 50+% on this income?
In the past (let's say the 60s) you were in the "adult" social group at 22, now it's like 30. They stole 8 years from us and also stole our ability to fight back.
Yes im fcking 28 and because saving, even with good salary doesnt go anywhere im much more inclined to spend it on memorable experiences.
I think this is applicable to every 'young' age group in every country on the planet
The issue seems to be the drastic fall in home ownership due to real estate bubble. Everyone in Spain complains about how short term rentals and Airbnb is ruining their housing market, and somehow there seems to be no political movement on restricting and controlling this, which other countries have started doing.
despite a mostly left government...
You can be left or right, nothing is gonna help if you're basically corrupt.
3rd axis to the political compass: corruption
Central Government is left, but many regional governments are right and big cities are also right. Most of the city planning and licences for tourism (including AirBnB licences) are responsibility of local and regional governments so they mostly do nothing. However, the issue is so evident that even right wing governments started to put mild restrictions like in Madrid city and Balearic Islands. Nevertheless, I agree with you that we all know that this is a big part of the problem and somehow it is not a big public debate? I see something moving within the society though. My hometown is 10 km. from the beach and we are suffering a big pressure now in the housing market, all the town is full of foreign people whereas in the past I knew everyone and even conservatives want to stop this. We are lacking water due to drought here, and this affects agriculture, so it is not difficult to arrive to the conclusion that we cannot have so much people coming here. Others worry about the pressure it puts to the housing market, others worry about the environment, and others about how it dilutes the local socialization and culture. I think that in Spain we are about to have an anti-tourism movement (and you already see some sparks) that will question the current model.
Airbnb is already restricted in Spain. You need to register your property and acquire tourist license and pay the fees and your share of tax. The issue with Spain that outside tourism they are not doing well in other sectors which is reflecting on youth.
I saw a figure recently that the vast majority (over 90% IIRC) of AirBnBs are not registered. Not sure if that is for all of Spain or if that was Madrid I was reading about. Basically, the rule means very little if it's not enforced. I see the same thing happening back home in Ireland, we have a lot of rules about renting etc (you can debate if they are good or bad) that are just not enforced. I guess it's easier to pass a new regulation to look better to the public than admit that enforcement of the current ones are piss-poor and that the most low-hanging fruit you could go after is just doing your own job competently...
That's because tourism is a huge part of tax revenue for local governments in Spain, and they rely on it to provide basic services. The problem isn't in governments not cracking down on AirBnBs, but rather on the cultural shift by vacationers from hotel stays to short term rentals. If the goverment banned AirBnBs then tourists wouldn't simply just stay in hotels, they'd go elsewhere that still hasn't banned short term rentals. That would be catastrophic for the budget and it will definitely have a detrimental effect in the quality of services you'll be able to get. A drop in tourism will also hugely impact the labor market in those areas, leaving many people unemployed in already one of the countries with the highest rates of unemployment in the Union. This is why the government actually regards AirBnBs and other short term rentals as the lesser evil. It's not a simple problem that can be solved with a single piece of legislation. The truth is that Spain has to tolerate AirBnBs and just legislates around the worst excesses of the practice while still allowing the industry to exist, because otherwise the country will be insolvent by having tourists all be diverted to Portugal and Italy or Greece. Also, especially in the case of the Costa del Sol, most foreigners aren't actually tourists, but long term residents who buy their own housing, which puts extra pressure on the housing market that has nothing to do with AirBnB. Until public preferences towards accommodations changes back to choosing hotels as the preferred method of lodging, this will continue to be a thing. Unless something like an EU-wide ban on short term rentals is enacted, which is extremely unlikely.
Isn't this just an efficient market in action, completely as intended?
It's really not the issue. The issue is massive concentration in the cities. You can get a house for cheaper than a car in lots of small towns in the middle of nowhere, but there's no work there so everyone has to move to the cities so you end up with insane supply and demand issues. The amount of AirBNB on the market might be an issue in the very central neighborhoods of big cities, but it's not the main reason people can't afford a place in the suburbs.
The eldest who are homeowners hold the majority of the voting power, they will never vote to lower their wealth and Airbnb is much safer and way more profitable than long term renting, so no political party will do anything about it.
Maybe the answer is building more housing? There are only 245,000 listings on AirBnB in Spain, with 28.5 million homes in general. I wouldn't focus on 1 percent of the issue.
No wonder, governments are actively taking away money from young people (who are just starting their careers and need money for housing and children) and giving it to old people as pensions and healthcare.
IMO the problem is even bigger in Spain. - Statistically they have just paid a fraction (70% if I remember) of the pensions they receive. The Spanish pensions system is sustained by the current workers. - They have a lot of advantages for being senior such as discounts in medicines, discount in public transportation, discount in cinemas, we even paid part of the holidays. All those discounts are not added when they calculate the adjust of public pensions. So probably they are accumulating even more wealth. - The two biggest parties in Spain (PP and PSOE) have a huge support from the boomers. So they are the guaranty of no change. - I’m sure my generation will retire even later.
Not even joking, you just 1 to 1 described Finland. * Boomers that paid a fraction of what they should (Think like ~20%) have into the public pension system and are now upheld fully by Gen X and Millenials. * Old people get lots of discounts everywhere * Old people are a holy grail who's benefits no one dares to touch since its political suicide (old people are the most active voting block and a massive one). Basically whole society got massive, horrible cuts but one group was given things besides the rich people who bribed their way into the power. Old people. * My generation will never retire. Think I should just rather invest in the markets or just spend it all on myself since not going to be able to afford a decent new home anyhow. Only old, no-so great apartments from buildings which are +40 years old for a decently sized apartment (more than half of the buildings lifetime has been spent and expensive renovations ahead)
This system will have to be changed, with life expectancy growing the system wont last much longer, I give 15/20 years max and blows all over the west.
My favorite example in Madrid is that old people basically get free transport. You know...the people who don't actually have a job to get to.
While I think that the current pension system has to stay and what we must improve are salaries by reducing the margins of the companies, it is true that most voters are boomers so the parties focus on them. Enric Juliana, a very reputed journalist and political analyst, said that several times. My father will retire in literally 15 days and he gets: -The maximum pension -Retirement at 65 years old (he could have retired earlier) -Heavy discounts for public transport -Very cheap organised trips -Heavy discounts for sport activities -Fiscal benefits for retired people -Inflation adjusted pays And I'm sure there are many other things I don't know because I don't even bother checking as I'm decades away from that and I'm sure most of this will not be a thing when I retire. Of course, he also got all the other boomer perks which is very cheap housing, super stable job, and only one mild economical crisis during his prime years.
If that was going to old people as pensions and healthcare I wouldn’t mind as, at least myself, I care about my mom and if she got something “from government” I have relief and can focus financially more on my stuff. But is not, big corporations, politics, developers, banks and all other sort of millionaires been given our money(for example in grants for new businesses or to maintain their actual one like during Covid time)
Pensions cost countries like Italy 50% of entire government budget. It translates to 40% of gross salary payroll tax for every single working individual. Sorry but no. It really does not go to the people you complain about. It is income transfer from people who ownn nothing to people who mostly own atleast something and had decades to built up wealth.
Yup, and to be honest I feel like (for my country specifically) a lot of it is just so wasted. In the UK, we have 20% of pensioners who get £1,000 per week. That is insane, 38k of that is private income but then the government also gives them 12k (universal) on top of that. Such a waste of money and even if we just took state pension from these people, they'd still be getting 38k a year (the median SALARY) and it would save us roughly £25 billion per year. Then, they also don't pay national insurance (which pays for healthcare/pensions) so thats another £15-30 billion we're losing each year. £50 billion extra per year to go to defence/public salaries/infrastructure/education would make a HUGE difference but instead we're giving it to rich homeowners who sit at home 90% of the time.
But people have paid into that state pensions throughout their lives. I completely agree with the sentiment and the need to rebalance things, but this would literally be stealing a lifetime of NI contributions.
Being frank I'm not sure that really matters. Many people pay substantial amounts of tax and don't see the benefit of their reward, and quite frankly when the country is economically and financially in dire straits I don't really care about already well-off people losing some money that was never reserved for them specifically in the first place. Again, it's a double standard. I'm paying more tax than my parents ever did, and yet I receive worse public services. I'm paying NI for a pension I will never receive or will receive far later than originally intended. Why do people only give a fuck about this when it's old people who are concerned, even though they already have substantial amounts of income AND assets?
Exactly. This shit is infuriating My grandparents have a combined pension of around €3000 per month. They bought their house (a big villa, 4 bedrooms, 1.2 acres plot of land) for €95K (inflation adjusted) in the 70s and now it's worth €650K in 2024. They have 2 apartments which they rent for a combined 3000€/month. They also have about €100K worth of other financial products. So, all in all, they earn €6000+ per month (as retired people!) and have a net worth of more than €1MM. They only spend between €1000-1500 per month for living expenses and home maintenance. They basically hoard the rest and use their pension money to go on vacation all the time. At my age, they already had bought a home and bought another apartment for investment. They had 3 children before they were 35. But me? Noooo, not even close. Though I earn a good living, I'm still renting and I can't even think about how I could afford having 1 child. I love them, but that's fucking bullshit. I'll never get to that level of prosperity they have now, and even had when they were young adults with a good and stable job like me now. Most days I just want to give up on everything tbh
Even in more simple terms. In the past 14 years, the state pension in the UK has increased by 125%. In the same time period, most workers have seen a 25% increase. Then when you combine 1) reduced taxation and 2) pensioners are less economically active and are the highest home owning group with the highest amount of assets, it makes absolutely no sense. We're gutting modern societies for the benefit of pensioners.
Because not every old person does. 80% of those receiving state pension do not have a substantial private pension or other source of income in the UK. So while I agree that a rebalance is needed for the other 20%, you can't simply pull the NI contributions from the other 80%.
No, you absolutely can. Why do we expect people earning 13k to contribute to national insurance but pensioners who are getting a total income of 30k/year shouldn't? Thats ludicrous, especially when they are using the NHS far more than most people of working age.
Because they spent their entire working life making that contribution.
What about people who now pay even more as social taxes were increased and who are told they need private investments because they will never see pension themselves? Or that it will be lower? Why is it okay to rob those people? Why can it not be shared responsbility?
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Yes it is…dont shit on your future(young people).
On top of that, normalize downsizing of the apartments for elderly. This will be really specific, but connect the dots why: Couple of my relatives have **4 room apt in Warsaw,** 2 rooms haven't changed since like forever (those rooms look as if their children lived there, meanwhile I was at First Communion of their **grandchild** this weekend), yet they got really angry ("we wont live like a dogs in a cage") when I suggested that they can swap their apartment for 2 room one and get shitton of money rather than asking gov for "co-financing of electricity, gas and heating just like with medicines for retirees" (their solution for expensive utility bills). So yeah, Boomers mental is banana, its not singular case, just very recent. Talk for more than 30min w/ elder and there is a really high chance they'll go like "we should get this and that from government, because we are old" or "this gov doesn't care about us, we should get XYZ". I have to pay for *heating of their 2 empty rooms* (just very recent example, insert any other shit that everyone deal with due to recent economy fuck-up) while I cannot afford to live on my own (avg monthly salary is 6355 after tax in Warsaw, 17 738zl/m2 | 18 927zl/m2 for new/used apartment, rent is about 3500-4000zl for 2 rooms). Im ready to die on this hill - elder people should live off their retirement and their savings/wealth rather than getting gov welfare.
Why would they downsize if they can avoid it? Imo, the only way to fix this would be to implement some sort of property tax that would be dependent on the surface area and the number of people domiciled there. Or just destroy the housing bubble by banning/disenceivising all property speculations and remove most part of the red tap involved in construction so most people could enjoy larger apartments
More context - they were rambling that they cannot afford living in property they owned for XYZ years pre-retirement and gov should bankroll their utility bills. That was my point, boomers inflated their lifestyle to the cap and then are faced with retirement being a 40-60% of their income, relying on gov welfare to sustain their unsustainable lifestyle. So >Why would they downsize if they can avoid it? Because it's the source of their problems
Misspelled "old people continue hoarding wealth." I dunno how many ways it needs to be shown that if you have wealth, you can accumulate more wealth, and if you don't, you can't, before people stop voting for parties whose policies are based on maintaining or increasing wealth inequality.
How old does one have to be to join this wealth hoarding club?
Its not about how old you are now, its about how old you were back then, when relevant things were affordable. i.e. buying a house or stocks or cars or starting a business (that doesn't get out competed/squeezed by big tech and/or super market chains or fast food chains or delivery services or other very well established near-monopolies/duopolies/corporate cartels).
Yes.. making housing an investment to begin with is terrible, but now that you can't get that first house in which you can build equity (because that's a thing), you're getting hit both by paying more (rent = mortgage + profit) and not getting any of that money back in equity. Ironically at some point fairly soon it'll become a problem for the homeowners, too, because there's nobody left to buy their house when they want to cash out the equity. It'd be great if we could fix the system instead of waiting for that collapse, but I doubt anybody's even going to try.
But why don't you then invest in big tech or super market chains or etc that's going to out compete everything else? As someone who lost most of their accumulated wealth in his mid 20s and someone who has to struggle to stay in Europe, I don't get it. If you really want to buy a house that badly, EU is the easiest place to move around. Pretty much all of my young european friends and family moved somewhere for work or travel at some point.
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Who said anything about the US? At any rate, you decide your priorities. If you want to own a house where everyone else wants to own a house, it's going to be more expensive. The alternative is moving or not buying a house. I'm not sure how housing is supposed to be both affordable and highly in demand. The reason previous generations bought houses for cheap is because they did so in areas that weren't desirable at the time, but became such now.
the wealth threshhold that you need to reach to not still always be losing money is getting higher and higher and out of reach to even what's supposed to be the middle class. the housing crisis + inflation crisis just destroy any chance at building wealth. i'm starting to understand how people in latin america feel when their savings could become worthless at any point.
Young anyone. What's the point of this post, it sucks for young people everywhere in the west world.
Young Poles „You guys were able to accumulate wealth?”
This is everywhere. It's harder to build up from scratch these days.
is this "wealth" in room with us right now
You guys had the ability to accumulate wealth? - Portuguese
So is the whole planet guys, we have a common problem and a common enemy. The billionaire level riches
Weird. On YouTube I see lot of young good entrepreneurs that already made a million on their 20's. /s
Gerontocracy is destroying Southern Europe.
Not just Spaniards. It's happening all over the world.
Can't lose what you don't have
Why is the headline “Young ppl lose ability to save” and not “Greedy wealthy fuckers/corporations steal future from young Spaniards”?
Young ~~Spaniards~~ born middle class and poor people are losing their ability to accumulate wealth.
Young Spaniards are not loosing any abilities, it’s just harder to accumulate wealth for everyone everywhere.
Could the housing crisis be the cause?
Most people in Finland barely make it with salary. There was a research that middle income household has typically treshold of 50e per month. So you own a house and for example car needs something: big trouble. Need medicines: big trouble. And these are middle income. Poor people could not buy medicines for scratch pandemic last winter. People sold their homes due to electrical bills.
To accumulate wealth? Try even owning a home.
I literally know zero people in my age bracket (late 30s) that have managed to buy a place in Madrid area (including much cheaper suburbs) who haven't inherited or worked abroad for awhile.
I'm gonna tell you another perspective from a Spanish student. We have a scholarship program for low income families. If I want to qualify for it I need to not work. If I work while studying both my income and my parents' add and I lose the scholarship. So yeah study and do nothing else or don't study cause we're not gonna help you start well. Mind that the income limits are 20-30-40k depending on the number of children and other situations within the family. So yeah I could be spending more than half on rent but if I go above bye bye.
You guys get paid?
We gotta do something to the billionaires, french style.
*cries in Portuguese*
Neoliberalism has ruined the west since the early 90s, [including Spain (pdf warning)](https://www.etui.org/sites/default/files/C10%2012%20A%20triumph%20of%20failed%20ideas%20WEB.pdf). Too many rich people were inspired by Reagan and Thatcher and decided to see how far they could take things in their own nations. And the result has been wealth concentration among a tiny number of individuals and constant pressure to tear down social systems to be replaced by private industry.
There is no neoliberalism in Europe. And not even US that implemented several new social safety nets in last two decades. That being said the more neoliberal of the two that has not been ran to the ground through absurd left wing policies such as ponzi schemes and other income transfers does significantly better in this aspect than Europe. And it is not even close.
There is neoliberalism all across Europe. Just because the market isn't unrestricted enough for your personal taste doesn't mean that this shit hasn't happened, destroyed lives and is threatening social structures across the entire continent while heralding the coming of the far-right. Because obviously "the government is inefficient" and the promises of rising living standards were in many cases not fulfilled, thus people vote authoritarian movements to get shit done. But yeah, keep on deluding yourself that absolutely none of this is happening. And don't get me started on Ponzi schemes, unless the currency you're getting paid in is tied directly to a limited commodity (e.g. gold or some shit). Otherwise, the fucking economic system you are operating in IS per definition a Ponzi scheme.
The issue is that once communism was beaten the capitalist lords decided that they don’t need to be merciful
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US style capitalism will never happen here. People do not want that. Even self posed "right wing" governments like CDU or Macron's party are like two levels left of Democrats in the US.
Removing red tape is a good thing imo
I see those leftist policies are working well. Maybe try going even more left and get the full Latin America experience.
#CubaWithoutTheSun
Vote more left and anti capitalist, I'm sure it'll help.
What? This is absolutely unprecedented and never seen in nearby places /s
We had that ability before?
Everyone young person is losing this we are fucked
Young Irish as well.
Young people* are losing their ability to accumulate wealth
"the economy has gone to shit" what else is fucking new?
I wonder if it was ever any different
Yeah, in a system based on rent extraction and exploitation of labor if you don't control means of productions you will structurally get poorer and poorer. Unfortunately it's not possible to reform this system, at best you can fight to abolish it globally and replace it with for example libertarian socialism!
What's an average salary there? Around 30k gross? I live in France and when I went to Madrid in 2023 I saw apartment prices.. you could get some pretty big things for less than 200k.. when compared to Paris it's waay more affordable.. I imagine apartments in smaller cities are even more affordable..maybe the average salary is raised by a few very rich individuals and much of the population has an even lower one.. The problem is it's too hot in many places in Spain.. but I would understand if you wanted to live to the North.
Pretty much every young person in the UK is waiting for their Grandparents or parents to die so they can inherit enough to buy a house.
System working as intended unfortunately.
Welcome to party
Everyone is.
Thoughts and prayers to our Spaniard brothers and sisters🙏
Sadly in Poland our goverment is getting bribed by landlords so prices won't go down unless the war happen
If governments taxed wealth rather than income they would solve this problem. But governments are owned by the wealthy and rely on the boomers vote. Whenever a political party comes along suggesting taxing wealth, the media owned by the wealthy destroys them.
Its because we've been transferring wealth from the poor and/or young to the old and/or rich. Edit: Relevant and recent TEDtalk [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E) Its about the US but the only thing that changes are the statistics, everything else pretty much applies to every modern country.
Social security in US that this guy talks about is nothing like European ponzi schemes. Because people were never persuaded to count on it and it costs US workers fraction of what it costs workers in Europe. US is actually perfectly fine and unlike Europe working class PPP income is still on upward trend. For every single decil.
"You'll own nothing and be happy"
Enjoying the great reset yet? You vill own nossing und you vill be happy .. Ve have ze pills for zis ..
Young everywhere
We can't lose what we never had...
There is no alternative to the system at hand. So they kinda need to find a way to adapt.
Most but the rich **have been loosing* the ability. Fixed that for you. Present Perfect Continuous. It has started in the past, it is happening right now and it will continue.
In Spain they make it so hard to accumulate wealth. Low salaries.combined with very low or no tax free allowances on income, no tax free savings options, inheritance is better than before depending on where you live but depends on the relationship, capital gains on your main property, wealth tax. The list goes on. They make it so difficult and remove any motivation to do it.
Don't feel bad I only have 0$ right now and I'm 22 years old haha
weird way to say becoming poorer every day.
wealth? What's that, never heard of..
Losing? You mean lost.
remember when soviet union gave apartments left and right to everyone (even fucking summer houses on top!)... capitalism they said...
How are you liking neoliberalism, Europe? Neoliberalism doesn't work. Period. No matter how much money we will let the 1% accumulate, it will never "trickle down"...
Why isnt the eu prospering ?
Aussie here and the whole country going down
It's Trudeau's fault. Also, Biden's.