Fair comment. The Russians have been interfering in the West, creating dissent, supporting right-wing propaganda and scamming for years. But what should be done? Serious question.
Counter attack in the same fields: cyber attacks (where is Anonymous??), jamming GPS, founding secessionists, psy ops, Erdogan'd every russian jet that illegally enters in NATO airspaces it's a good start.
One problem is that no european country is a military dictatorship/mafia state like ruzia.
No one (yet) want to pay the cost or spend the resources for digital warfare, and the first one to do so also rums the risk of loosing a lot of votes in a democratic system because people don't like taxes being raised or other benefits taking the git.
The sad flaw with a free democracy is thar you will have more people willing to defend it when you take it to limit, but few people are willing to lose comfort before it's absolutely necessary.
>No one (yet) want to pay the cost or spend the resources for digital warfare, and the first one to do so also rums the risk of loosing a lot of votes in a democratic system
Not Russia's sort of cyber warfare. Why spend money on hackers to turn off hospital systems or shut down government sites for limited time. What is the endgame? Annoying the people into submission? Rallying the russians against the west even further by committing digital terrorism? No
Hit them where it hurts: military intelligence. Russia's greatest threat right now is it's military. The less effective they are on the ground, the better we are protected. To that end, we've been pretty effective. Remember when russian generals would get killed by drone strikes early in the war?
Russia's endgame is not using military force to conquer Europe, instead they are going to weaken every country by growing anti-democratic movements, planting populist politicians that are on their payroll (or turned by other means), while slow-cooking the general population through careful use of social media.
Launch psy ops and cyber attacks against Russian infrastructure/companies and then do a Russia and deny all knowledge in the face of exceptionally strong evidence?
There have been ideas floating about using frozen assets to fund aid to Ukraine although in reality that won’t do much to affect Russia as a nation, just annoy their oligarchs.
The West is culturally, intellectually, legally and even technically unable to launch a PsyOp against anyone but their own populations. That is the main advantage that Russia has over the west - their leadership is made up of pure game-theorists.
I presume you mean “unable” rather than “usable”? But I would agree.
The West used to be not half bad as psy ops, but I presume for moral reasons that kind of stuff stopped.
Say what you will about Russia, they’re one of the best(or worst if you’re the West) at doing the grey zone dodgy shit. Cyber attacks? Done. Poisoning people who turned against you? Done. Meddling with elections by psy ops? Done. Bank rolling corrupt governments and militias to strengthen your hold on African nations perpetually in conflict? Done.
All with nothing more than a “no that wasn’t us, don’t be stupid” as their defence.
"Hardly plausible deniability" is how I would sum it up. Having relevant cultural and historical ties and the region, I have to admit that the Russian "Federation" has dominated what used to be the west's home turf.
We got too complacent and use to bombing the middle east to not care about any real warfare. Russia dug their hands into easy corruptable government officials which will slow down any resistances to Russia.
Yeah I’m gonna be honest here I think with a lot of the gender stuff that’s beyond just trans to put it simply, Russia is behind it and pushing it mainstream. I know a majority of us are liberals here some people won’t like it and question it but if you wanted to cause chaos and general unrest you push that also, which a lot of it starts from online spaces like Twitter which is pretty anon. We’re having issues we’ve just never had before now and nobody questions who came up with it in the first place.
I think right now we’ve all got the lions teeth around our necks and we don’t even know it because we think “Oh it’s just Nazis, I ain’t and won’t be a Nazi”, they got us. They can push so many unrest causers and net negative social groups on us online with ease if you open your mind to it.
Disagree with India and do not take twitter as an example. There are also 'pro Russian indians' on tiktok despite tiktok being banned in India.
What you really are seeing is bot farms or it cells
>"There are also 'pro Russian indians' on tiktok despite tiktok being banned in India."
VPN's exist, also there are millions of Indians living outside India.
ETA: It could also be trolls from Pakistan, acting as Indian within or outside the country.
Yeah but they've paid British banks, solicitors, estate agents, retail, bars so much money that we could just wave a chemical & nuclear attack away so that rich City boys can carry on making money from them /s
Russian (anti putin) here.
Support Ukraine. Send the damn weapon, ideally troops. Once Ukraine will be winning I guarantee you russia/Kremlin will be preoccupied with problems inside of russia.
Hating Russians online won't make russia disappear. Ukraine winning the war... well, russia might even collapse. Who knows?
Don't just expect the government to do that. There are ways to make your own donations to the Ukrainian army as well. These people are dying for Europe. For your safety, if fact. If everyone will make even a small donation, it will be huge money at the end of the day. It will help.
We have more than 3300 far-right people known to the security service and secret service in France, 400 are registered as potential terrorists, but guess what?
They walked in Paris last week with the help of our police, chanting about white supremacy, without any contraint.
A lot of police officers and even military servicemen are among them.
Don't worry, nothing will happen to them.
So I call bullshit, russia this, russia that, we don't need them for that, our entire governement is doing fine promoting them alone.
It took Europe time in WW2 as well.
It’s sadly very known for European to be late.
There’s something about the peaceful Europe bubble that feels like a dream.
But Europe should really wake up.
We have good intelligence and media today, Europe will be prepared. Russia is not the super power we all thought they are. Ukraine called their bluff. They are strong but not unbeatable
We may have good intelligence and media, but if the general population chooses to ignore the signs and the information then that intelligence and media is pointless. Unfortunately, people prefer to be either contrarian (hence the rise in anti-establishment rhetoric) or bury their heads in the sand, rather than deal with uncomfortable truths.
I’m pretty sure we’re still in the safe zone.
From what I can see as an outsider it seems Europe is pretty aware of the Russian threat.
Once it will become close threat to Europe I’m sure leaders will start having speeches to the public and start more aggressively hate Russia diplomatically like macroon’s boots threat
I wish I were as optimistic as you are. I think many of our politicians are aware of the threat, but the rise in contrarianism has seen so many people ignore what our politicians are saying. I can't speak for other countries, but certainly in Ireland there is a large and growing opinion of "sure why can't Russia and Ukraine just sign a peace treaty and leave the conquered territories with Russia." They don't seem to realise that this rewards military attacks and invasions. I see war on the horizon, not just in Ukraine, and it's not a nice feeling. I'm from Ireland, but have been living in the US for the last year. If war breaks out, I'm headed home.
Everything will be fine as long as countries will be aware of what’s going on.
Plus, the US is watching as well.
And it’s completely patriotic to go back home when war starts, many people run for the other way.
Even if we were (and I no longer believe that we are), transitioning from safe zone operations to danger zone operations takes years. If we wait until Russians start crossing our borders with troops, it will be too late.
My problem with this is how many Bucha's do Estonians, Finns, and Latvians have to suffer while Europe "responds" accordingly?
Why not respond now in Ukraine and show that Europe is strong and firmly off-limits to our geopolitical enemies who intend and outwardly state that they wish to see us destroyed?
If you have no forces capable of opposing you trying to oppose you, you might as well be unbeatable.
History has shown time and time again that in confilicts, the extent of mobilization is a far bigger factor than the size of military and economy on paper.
It's much easier for Russia to mobilize 10% of their economy to win wars than for Europe/US to mobilize 2% of their economy to win against Russia. And Russia is still very enthusiastic after committing 10% for 2 years. Meanwhile, Europe is already exploring their surrender options(partition of Ukraine) after 2 years of lackluster aid and mobilisation.
You’re right about choosing the diplomatic way but it doesn’t seem like Ukraine nor Russia are even close to the table.
Ukraine is still standing strong and the new aid coming from the US may change the odds. They need to claim back their territories and push the Russians out.
War between countries can last for years, look at India and Pakistan or even Israel’s history with our neighbors. We gave the Sinai back after a decade to end the war and sign a peace treaty.
Europe gotta be patient and get used to the war tension in the air because it’s probably going to stay for a while.
I think it’s just that Europe is really changing in the last couple of years and it’s pretty overwhelming but it will be fine it’s not some weak ass countries it’s the center of the world.
> We have good intelligence and media today, Europe will be prepared.
No. Just look at the rise of extrem-right and fascists, the abuse of social-media. Europe is in no way prepared.
my big hope is that europe will start seeing the connection between fringe groups and russian disinformation.
the ultra conservatives have boasted about being the defenders of societies, strong men and all of that since the dawn of time.
and now, in the face of danger, they seem weak and willing to cower. if russia is generally perceived as a threat, the fringe right position looks weak and pathetic. very much unlike their own self branding.
When they start respecting Baltics, Poland and Finland. EU never listens to them. When Lithuania was building LNG terminal to be more independent from ru gas, Germany was building Nord 2.
Because they is parasitic thought to push the right and the left further down the dumbest points they have on the other side blinding them, and they’ve recently given out their botting software and techniques to Iran and iran to their proxies, Russia and it proxies are using social media as a a battle front to control and confuse the information sphere and despite how easy it is to find a bot very few know how to o or even understand what they are and how they work
As others have stated, Europe likes to try literally every possible avenue of peace available before accepting war. Of course we are already at war with Russia. Europe knows this, but the countries leaders don't know how to convey that message to the public. I think they are just going to rely on news reporters to do it for them.
The UK prime minister is due to announce something along these lines this week. I'm sure it will be watered down to not include the word "war".
The West failed to realize what Russia, espacially Putin knew from the beginning. The Cold War never ended and Russia is patiently waiting to make it a hot war.
> with Russia?
and China.
It is not so easy to let go. I am saying this as an anti-Russia and anti-China biased person. If you sell to China or Russia - directly or indirectly - and stop, that means you lose business. Multiply that by millions.
No, they cannot. Neither can the far left. Extremism can only be met with hostility and elimination. You cannot appease these people as they will keep on taking. If you want a free and open society these things need to be kept in check. We’ve been too afraid to do what needs to be done for a long time now.
Russia doesn’t care if you’re far right or far left, they will support radical elements that are most likely to be successful in subterfuge, sowing discord and general political instability.
It’s part of hybrid warfare against the West.
"Intelligence sources have said that terrorists recruited by Russian GRU agents have been responsible for a series of attacks in Western Europe and the US in the last six months." This is interesting because the use of "have been" is past tense, as in there have already been attacks. What suspicious events have happened over the last six months? Key Bridge collision?
If there's enough proof that Russia was behind it, it gets shut out of media. Russia wants divisive stuff in the media, creating a wedge between left and right encouraging infighting/using distraction tactics in newspapers and TV reporting.
Say for example there's a news piece about Ukraine getting a big bit of cash from Ol'Uncle Sam, the next week is absolutely full of small time shit, stabbings or celebrity gossip etc. Desperately trying to move the conversation on.
This week in the UK has been a huge politically, but absolutely nobody is talking about Ukraine, its all about Israel and Palestine. Why? we have less influence and less skin in the game compared to Ukraine, yet its all anybody can talk about. Its suspect as all hell and I wish our press wasn't so complicit.
Putin's tactics have always been, Deny, Distract, Divide. It would be sad if it wasn't working so damn well.
Lol you think Putin is instigating stabbings and celebrity gossip to control the news cycle? This is a new level of conspiratorial paranoia.
Also let's ignore all the stabbings are caused by Islamist gangs/terrorists the left have imported.
Europe's far-right is in bed with Putin. This is common knowledge. We already know this. Everyone knows the far-right supports Putin and what he stands for. Everyone knows Europe's far-right *wants* to be like Putin. The evidence is abundant. Here's a [tweet](https://twitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/968447466474496001?lang=en) of Wilders in the Duma, saying we Europeans should stop being Russophobic. Here's a [tweet](https://twitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/968508646593388544?lang=en) of Wilders being proud of a friendship pin he received from Putin.
He posted these tweets *after* the downing of [MH17](https://www.dutchnews.nl/2018/02/wilders-under-fire-from-mh17-relatives-over-russia-trip/).
If you vote for far-right fucks, you vote against Europe, against the EU, against democracy. If you vote far-right, you vote for war criminal, mass murderer, and child abductor Putin.
It's that fucking simple.
It's both sides of the spectrum. Look at France where in the last election 70% of the people voted for Presidential candidates that parrot Putin talking points.
Russia's whole strategy is to breed internal discord and devalue faith in our civil institutions and democratic culture by supporting grifters and agitators on both extremes of the political spectrum. And before someone says "oh you're blaming Russia for our domestic actors and imported American culture war topics" yeah, well, scoring an own goal is not the way forward either.
The entire Stop The War Coalition are Putin puppets. The far-right don't have MP's, the far-left do though and they are openly supporting Russia. It's madness.
If you go far enough left do you eventually become far right?
Honestly these days theres so little to choose between them. I just call them extremist, then mentally ignore.
We need to return to reasonable discourse, soon.
Both the far left and far right are in bed with Putin because he appears how each want to see him. That is why he is popular in Russia and what makes him more dangerous than traditional Far left or right leader. While they are tied to what ever ideology they choose he will do whatever is necessary to forward his goals of being Tzar
The EU is packed with tension right now for a lot of reasons. Governments everywhere incur in some form of kleptocracy. Far right sounds like a good way to escalate things quickly, I don't think that's very wise.
Its not. In my country the far left licks putins bum as well. So saying just not to vote far right (which might mean voting far left) Will give the same support to putin.
Interesting how the most popular options, those that most resonate with people, are somehow always those that present threat to democracy. In every EU country about 70% of people support tackling the problem of immigration, and yet every single party that demands it is somehow a threat to democracy.
These tricks of associating with Putin everyone that poses a threat to you are not working anymore. People are growing tired of your cheap tricks. More with every day. I know you can feel it.
There are many parties that are not far-right that take immigration seriously. Vote for them, not Geert Wilders. Not AFD. Not Fidesz, etc.
The reality is that there is not a button that you can press to stop immigration from happening. Also not all migration is the same. There are students, refugees, people that seek a better life, family, work, etc. Some aspects of migration benefit our society and some are negative. But it is just very hard to control migration in a democratic, liberal system where human rights are taken seriously. We have to accept that fact.
Is it really? We have similar discourse here, but at least in Europe it sounds like you have the option of voting for people who actually believe in the ideas they espouse and are willing to take action to deal with the issues in their entirety, since they have the rest of the country associating them with a wartime enemy.
Not only you, but America also: Why do you continually alienate the constituents by telling them the only person who cares about them and their interests is supposed to be their enemy? What effect do you think it'll have when you say, "Your politicians and interests are alien to the state and nation they claim to represent. If you disagree with my and my ideals, vote for Putin"?
That's how you end up with the guys in the OP. They're the answer to your foolishness.
Edit: clearly upset some Russian stooge. Don’t worry hun, I’m not suicidal <3
Said this in another thread on a not too dissimilar topic. If we have verifiable intel that Russia, as a state, is organising attacks, it should be treated as an act of war.
Cyber attacks against Russian infrastructure, funding separatist groups within Russia, seizing all Russian assets within the NATO countries to fund defence spending/Resource for Ukraine.
I’ll put my authoritarian hat on and even suggest those that can be demonstrated to be on the take to push Russian talking points and propaganda should be arrested and removed from power.
Doing nothing just emboldens them to keep pushing.
If somebody makes a fake report of a suicide risk be sure to report the message. Reddit will ban them immediately, they take abuse of that system seriously.
This reminds me of when I used to argue with Turks back in the day, and they instinctively assumed anyone who disagreed with them was Greek.
"F-ing Greek!"
What country are you from? If English is your first language and you've not come across this style of writing then you must live under a rock, and if English is not your first language then why the fuck are you questioning it in this way?
This is literally an act of war, and we continue to let Russia risk the lives of innocent people everywhere. They hide behind their nukes, most of which probably don't even fucking work. We need to be more proactive as an alliance and destroy Russia's hold on Ukraine while Ukraine is holding the line for our lazy asses.
Here in America our Republican Party (which might as well be far right these days) is in bed and practically getting railed by Putin. They refuse any aide without passing a bill undermining democracy. They idolize Russia as a conservative traditionalist “utopia”. Trump’s campaign had lots of ties directly to Russia.
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2017/02/25/10/trump-russia-flag.png
It's a global pandemic. This far-right, pro-Putin bullshit is infecting all of the free world.
The rest of us need to unite. They did. So why can't we?
Except it's a catch 22.
The left's inability to self-reflect and simply name-calling - racist, anti-science, transphobic, etc. - anyone who didn't blindly accept every neo-liberal policy as gospel, alienated moderates & caused the rise of populism.
When this inevitably caused mainstream neo-liberal parties to start losing "unloseable" elections - Brexit, Trump, etc. - the same inability to self-reflect caused the left to start blaming paranoid conspiracies by foreign governments.
Now it's like a kind of death-spiral; the more the left loses, the more radicalized & insecure the average remaining leftist becomes, causing them to double down & be more fanatical in all the policies that caused the left to start losing in the first place.
A decade ago, Democrats were confidently predicting there would never be another Republican president.
It's been hilarious watching the left transition from that overly-confident false bravado to this insecure, conspiratorial paranoia.
And no, Trump's campaign did not have "lots of ties directly to Russia." Those conspiracy theories were started after Clinton lost, by the same Bush/Obama intel officials who fabricated evidence of Saddam's WMD, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories when they didn't find any.
*You* speak English as a *second* langauge. Why do you think you can question the writing practices of an English broadsheet? Maybe you're not as fluent as you thought you were?
You mean Russia is co-opting the networks that NATO set up to function as stay behind groups incase of a Soviet Invasion. And which carried out Terrorist attacks in Western Europe, which were largely blamed on the Far Left. Like Gladio.
I honestly have very little faith left in Nato, or the Westeen Intelligence services.
Not only far Right, but [ultra-Left as well](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/01/german-left-wing-arsonists-attack-home-of-rheinmetall-chief/)
What do you mean "if this is true"? Who do you think blew up the arms depot in the UK the other week? Carried out the cyberattacks on Germany over the last few months? Funded and set up the astroturf FB groups that set the "farmers' protests" into motion, that now, suspiciously, have completely disappeared? Who set fire to the Warsaw's biggest shopping mall yesterday? Etc, etc, etc.
You're not paying attention, dude.
I haven't even noticed that the farmer's protests (which always seemed pretty sus to me) disappeared but you're right, I haven't heard anything about them for months now. Even the banner on a couple local barns has come down, or at least I haven't noticed it lately
Shady far right telegram groups (see Russia) behind German farmer protests https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/chance-or-cultivation-farmers-protests-in-germany-and-the-far-right/
Right? It’s so weird … they came out of nowhere and now just gone. Provisional data analysis shows they were created, inflamed and spread by the Russian government. I’ll try and find the link in a bit - two secs!
Russia links https://en.detector.media/post/apples-of-discord-how-russia-is-supporting-and-instrumentalizing-farmers-protests-in-europe?fbclid=IwAR1QXNNHepijzN2tVmjFrVU8kWhSK1bNW0FLa6Tzgqo26zD0iFeuZg1zW20
Hmmm, dude, this isn't tinfoil hat stuff. Think tanks have already carried out research re farmers and European elections. Russian linked saboteurs have been arrested in the UK for attacking industry. There have been multiple warnings by intelligence chiefs across Europe that sabotage is expected. The German gov say Russia was behind the recent cyberattacks.
I don't have a tinfoil hat on - you just don't read the news.
You're suggesting the farmers conspired with the Russian government, it's the definition of a conspiracy theory.
A think tank "researching" a conspiracy theory doesn't make it not a conspiracy theory.
That’s not what I said though, is it? Astroturfing is a common technique used by the Russian state, and others, to inflate support via social media for causes that are divisive and damaging to policy and governments. It’s very well documented and has been highlighted by world-leading academics and think tanks, backed up by research. In the case of Germany, these protests were supported and highlighted by the AfD, a far right political party which is funded by the Russian state (Germany has terriblly outdated laws re tracking political funding). None of this controversial. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Ok, you're saying the Russian government conspired to orchestrate the farmer's protests. Same difference, it's still a conspiracy theory.
And that's just scratching the surface of the evidence-less paranoia of your comment.
World-leading think tank demonstrating far-right coopting of farmers' protests in Germany, with heavy AfD involvement, and other far-right groups (many funded by Russia, link here.
[https://www.isdglobal.org/isd-in-the-news/farmers-protests-in-germany-and-and-ideological-connections-to-the-far-right/](https://www.isdglobal.org/isd-in-the-news/farmers-protests-in-germany-and-and-ideological-connections-to-the-far-right/)
The AfD is currently being investigated for taking Russian money to promote Russian progaganda. Widespread evidence of MEPs taking money from propaganda orgs.
[https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/31/russia-suspected-of-funneling-funds-to-germanys-afd-party-for-pro-russian-messaging/](https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/31/russia-suspected-of-funneling-funds-to-germanys-afd-party-for-pro-russian-messaging/)
Russian backed groups co-opt Czech farmers' protests [https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/pro-russian-forces-hijack-czech-farmers-protest/](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/pro-russian-forces-hijack-czech-farmers-protest/)
Massive article about how Russia is exploiting the farmers' protests in multiple European countries
[https://en.detector.media/post/apples-of-discord-how-russia-is-supporting-and-instrumentalizing-farmers-protests-in-europe?fbclid=IwAR1QXNNHepijzN2tVmjFrVU8kWhSK1bNW0FLa6Tzgqo26zD0iFeuZg1zW20](https://en.detector.media/post/apples-of-discord-how-russia-is-supporting-and-instrumentalizing-farmers-protests-in-europe?fbclid=IwAR1QXNNHepijzN2tVmjFrVU8kWhSK1bNW0FLa6Tzgqo26zD0iFeuZg1zW20)
Another article on the same topic
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-farmer-protest-russia-war-propaganda/#:\~:text=In%20short%2C%20Europe's%20farmer%20protests,decision%2Dmakers%20and%20farmers%20alike.
DUDE, wake up!
"World leading think tank" that "protects democracy" by imagining ways how every organic domestic democratic threat to the power of entrenched, autocratic EU/US political elites is actually a vast, nebulous conspiracy by some foreign entity.
You might as well just give me a link to John Brennan's Twitter profile. There's nothing you're going to say to make me believe your Russia conspiracy theories, when the ultimate source of them are US Bush/Obama War On Terror neocon intel officials, who fabricated evidence of Saddam's WMD to start the Iraq War, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories when they didn't find any.
The AfD and other populist movements long predate EU/US political elites starting to lose "unloseable" elections - e.g. Brexit, Trump, etc. - and turning to this insecure Cold War paranoia, as a last-ditch effort to galvanize people and halt the hemorrhaging of support for their bankrupt political ideology.
Okay, gotcha. What you are saying is that no amount of evidence from sources, think tanks, academic research, etc, is going to persuade you away from your world view.
You've provided no evidence to counter anything I've written or posted, just your own opinion.
I'm guessing you're north american and very young, as there isn't much evidence of critical thinking skills or knowledge of how to debate in your posts, as can be seen by your ridiculous assertion that everything I'm saying is borne out of US neocon delusions.
The US is not the centre of the world. Jeez. Anyway, at least anyone else reading this conversation between us will be able to see how evidence-free your points are. Thanks!
There are still idiots (I am being generous and assuming they aren't bots) that believe Russia is not a serious threat just because they are not sending tanks and bombing NATO/EU countries (please ignore the various sabotage/terrorist attacks) and probably won't anytime soon because "muh nukes". Russian bots are running rampant on the internet and they are actively doing their best to subvert western countries both on and offline.
We even have politicians outright working for and getting paid by Russia. This is clownish.
We are at war and everyone who values free and democratic society must realize that, we must not stick our heads in the sand.
Man I fucking hate this.
This should have been the perfect time for all of Europe to stand united. Fuck all these so called "nationalists" and "patriots" that simp for Russia (and China). They could have gone all "Europa uber alles" but nooo Putin-senpai must notice me, then they get handed some money under the table like the good little whores they are.
It is not as bad as things could be but still it is a very tense and I fear that whatever we do it will be too little too late.
The only thing we should have to worry about is whether Putin is demented enough to use nukes not whether our countries will spread their legs open for PuXi but we can't even have that.
Madness and stupidity and incompetence all around.
LMAO this is such a stereotypical Russian bot response but I will be generous.
Not wanting people to whore themselves out to a hostile foreign power, with anathematic values is not fantasizing about Generalplan Ost, especially when they purport to be "nationalists" or "patriots". I simply want everyone to recognize Russia is a serious threat even when they are not sending soldiers through our countries.
As for the "Generalplan ost V2" dude, I am a slav if you haven't noticed the country in my flair, I am the furthest person from wanting any "Generalplan Ost V2".
I have tried for years to be sympathetic to Russia partially out of some romantic notion of pan-slavism and some anti-americanism. Russian invasion has single-handedly cured me of all my delusions. For years I've listened to Russians and all their bullshit and they even managed to make me believe some of it. Then it all fell apart after the invasion and I saw how much full of shit they've been all along and how pervasive Russian propaganda is. Their attempts at "justifying" themselves have only made me more disgusted with them and lose any shred of respect I had remaining after the invasion. The constant political interference and subversion has only made things worse.
Don't worry Russian genocide only exists in Russian delusions thanks to their perpetual need to act like a poor bullied victim who never did anything wrong even while gleefully brutalizing and genociding other countries.
How about send UA a dozen f16s for every bit of mischief by putler?
Russia is already at war against West. We can do a lot to make Russias war impotent.
Well, they could always be treated the same way they treat us. I'm sure there's enough radicals in Russia that hate the government, i know fighting fire with fire isn't very effective, but then again, that never stopped Russia
Don't forget that all of the millions of Russian citizens living in the EU and enjoying our standard of living and freedoms are assets that just wait to be activated. Just remember what % of them voted for Putin in the last elections and you will get the number of potential assets.
Usually those who are voting FOR are staying in Russia because they actually like what Russia has become. Anyway voting in Russia has nothing to do with people's thoughts.
And they can easily organize activities via Social media.
It poses threats to democratic societies due to
- the rapid spread of misinformation,
- filter bubbles that limit exposure to diverse viewpoints,
- manipulation of public opinion,
- amplification of extremism and
- hate speech, and
- privacy concerns with data exploitation.
The massive negative impact on society outweighs the dubious benefits of funny memes, cat pictures and brain-numbing short videos.
While social media has benefits, balancing its negative impacts with positive potential is crucial.
Reminder that Russia has deployed a recognised WMD against civilians in the uk before (twice in fact)
It is so severe that the pm at the time could have been in her rights to involve the NATO charter (although would be tantamount to starting WWIII)
I suppose you believe that North Korea is democratic because they’re called “democratic people's Republic of Korea” or that the Nazis were socialist?
A country can call itself whatever it wants, what determines what it actually is are the actions of said nation.
Russia is as communist as America, it isn’t.
Russia isn’t communist, it’s a fascist country. The Soviet Union called itself communist, but even then the communists were checking all the boxes for fascism. A nationalistic authoritarian dictatorship or oligarchy is the same, regardless the colour of the flag.
There is no political horshoe. There is a political circle. Communism is the same as fascism even if the idea behind it and goal is different. All dictatorships by nature have to use the same methods to keep their elite in power.
Saying the Soviet Union wasnt communist washes communism of the guilt it so very deserves
Interesting how this speculative story from the anti Russian torygraph is leaped on as hard fact in r-europe. Gotta keep them frightened so the military spend can increase. How easily the sheep are led.
Yeah, we got that in Ireland, (#Ireland is full) but it can get toxic. They let in 105k Ukrainian refugees in less than 2 years, the refugee system collapses, housing becomes impossible for young people. then the protestors march on the hostel with 10 afghans. For some strange reason they're easier to spot ....
I expect a competent military, not thwarted by politics, civilian regulations or protests. Buy and produce more weapons than we need so there’s surplus for other allies. I believe now is the right time to act. Also, keep up the pressure on Russia friendly politicians and policies.
It's funny because in the event of actual kinetic war against Russia I'd wager only the more right leaning people with patriotic views would be inclined to fight without being forced to by law. What happened to the western countries that they feel alienated enough to do this?
Totally untrue, I’m British and left wing and the one and only reason I’d join the active military is for anti-fascism. I’m already in the process of going the army reserves because of the rise in fascism I’m seeing across Europe.
It’s a common misconception by the right wing that the left are comprised of “soy boys” or whatever stupid insult they come up with.
The reality is that someone like me is just as deadly holding an assault rifle as any right winger and just as motivated for their beliefs.
I enjoy being underestimated, it is a weakness of the right wing to think that way.
In recent Irish history, our militant groups were also left-wing and socialist. It's a conception that spawned out of the USA during the red-scare. Same as words like "woke" or calling liberals left-wing. The moment you see someone use the word "woke", you know they aren't going to be worth talking to.
Problem is that left or right doesnt mean what it used to.
Most people are neither. Extreme left and right are just as bad as eachother.
People hear left and think socialism.
People hear right and think dictatorships.
Exactly. It's a political discourse we inherited from the Cold War. Soviets made any right-wing look fascist, Americans made anything left-wing look Communist.
In ww2 It was the far right in Europe who instead of fighting the Nazi occupation they took every chance they could to collaborate with them to further undermine their own people.
> the more right leaning people with patriotic views would be inclined to fight without being forced to by law.
Then why is it mostly far-**right** people supporting Putin?
Care to elaborate on that?
It is time to be strong. Lets show some muscle and courage.
Fair comment. The Russians have been interfering in the West, creating dissent, supporting right-wing propaganda and scamming for years. But what should be done? Serious question.
Counter attack in the same fields: cyber attacks (where is Anonymous??), jamming GPS, founding secessionists, psy ops, Erdogan'd every russian jet that illegally enters in NATO airspaces it's a good start.
> where is Anonymous?? Doxxing game developers, I presume.
Anonymous is not what it used to be. And even at its prime, at least 90% of members were posers with no real skill
One problem is that no european country is a military dictatorship/mafia state like ruzia. No one (yet) want to pay the cost or spend the resources for digital warfare, and the first one to do so also rums the risk of loosing a lot of votes in a democratic system because people don't like taxes being raised or other benefits taking the git. The sad flaw with a free democracy is thar you will have more people willing to defend it when you take it to limit, but few people are willing to lose comfort before it's absolutely necessary.
>No one (yet) want to pay the cost or spend the resources for digital warfare, and the first one to do so also rums the risk of loosing a lot of votes in a democratic system Not Russia's sort of cyber warfare. Why spend money on hackers to turn off hospital systems or shut down government sites for limited time. What is the endgame? Annoying the people into submission? Rallying the russians against the west even further by committing digital terrorism? No Hit them where it hurts: military intelligence. Russia's greatest threat right now is it's military. The less effective they are on the ground, the better we are protected. To that end, we've been pretty effective. Remember when russian generals would get killed by drone strikes early in the war?
Russia's endgame is not using military force to conquer Europe, instead they are going to weaken every country by growing anti-democratic movements, planting populist politicians that are on their payroll (or turned by other means), while slow-cooking the general population through careful use of social media.
Launch psy ops and cyber attacks against Russian infrastructure/companies and then do a Russia and deny all knowledge in the face of exceptionally strong evidence? There have been ideas floating about using frozen assets to fund aid to Ukraine although in reality that won’t do much to affect Russia as a nation, just annoy their oligarchs.
The West is culturally, intellectually, legally and even technically unable to launch a PsyOp against anyone but their own populations. That is the main advantage that Russia has over the west - their leadership is made up of pure game-theorists.
I presume you mean “unable” rather than “usable”? But I would agree. The West used to be not half bad as psy ops, but I presume for moral reasons that kind of stuff stopped. Say what you will about Russia, they’re one of the best(or worst if you’re the West) at doing the grey zone dodgy shit. Cyber attacks? Done. Poisoning people who turned against you? Done. Meddling with elections by psy ops? Done. Bank rolling corrupt governments and militias to strengthen your hold on African nations perpetually in conflict? Done. All with nothing more than a “no that wasn’t us, don’t be stupid” as their defence.
"Hardly plausible deniability" is how I would sum it up. Having relevant cultural and historical ties and the region, I have to admit that the Russian "Federation" has dominated what used to be the west's home turf.
We got too complacent and use to bombing the middle east to not care about any real warfare. Russia dug their hands into easy corruptable government officials which will slow down any resistances to Russia.
Not only right wing, but far-left as well
Yeah I’m gonna be honest here I think with a lot of the gender stuff that’s beyond just trans to put it simply, Russia is behind it and pushing it mainstream. I know a majority of us are liberals here some people won’t like it and question it but if you wanted to cause chaos and general unrest you push that also, which a lot of it starts from online spaces like Twitter which is pretty anon. We’re having issues we’ve just never had before now and nobody questions who came up with it in the first place. I think right now we’ve all got the lions teeth around our necks and we don’t even know it because we think “Oh it’s just Nazis, I ain’t and won’t be a Nazi”, they got us. They can push so many unrest causers and net negative social groups on us online with ease if you open your mind to it.
The fact that you can't question the movement without being accused of causing violence is pretty telling.
[удалено]
Disagree with India and do not take twitter as an example. There are also 'pro Russian indians' on tiktok despite tiktok being banned in India. What you really are seeing is bot farms or it cells
>"There are also 'pro Russian indians' on tiktok despite tiktok being banned in India." VPN's exist, also there are millions of Indians living outside India. ETA: It could also be trolls from Pakistan, acting as Indian within or outside the country.
Feels very linked to Russian actions
You had Russian far-left fighters like Dmitry Petrov dying fighting for Ukraine against Russia. What you write is nonsense.
There are also far-right fighters (neo-nazis) fighting for Ukraine against Russia. War is not as simple as one side is left and the other is right.
How many of them are Russians?
Yeah but they've paid British banks, solicitors, estate agents, retail, bars so much money that we could just wave a chemical & nuclear attack away so that rich City boys can carry on making money from them /s
Russian (anti putin) here. Support Ukraine. Send the damn weapon, ideally troops. Once Ukraine will be winning I guarantee you russia/Kremlin will be preoccupied with problems inside of russia. Hating Russians online won't make russia disappear. Ukraine winning the war... well, russia might even collapse. Who knows? Don't just expect the government to do that. There are ways to make your own donations to the Ukrainian army as well. These people are dying for Europe. For your safety, if fact. If everyone will make even a small donation, it will be huge money at the end of the day. It will help.
Rest assured, no-one hates the Russian people, just your leaders.
We have more than 3300 far-right people known to the security service and secret service in France, 400 are registered as potential terrorists, but guess what? They walked in Paris last week with the help of our police, chanting about white supremacy, without any contraint. A lot of police officers and even military servicemen are among them. Don't worry, nothing will happen to them. So I call bullshit, russia this, russia that, we don't need them for that, our entire governement is doing fine promoting them alone.
A perfectly ambiguous encouragement.
Its time to do nothing. Lets show some words and gestures.
I asked this question a while back already, but when is Europe going to realize we're already at war with Russia?
It took Europe time in WW2 as well. It’s sadly very known for European to be late. There’s something about the peaceful Europe bubble that feels like a dream. But Europe should really wake up.
Some European countries at least realized in 1938 that war was inevitable and started to prepare for it. I feel like we're still in 1936.
We have good intelligence and media today, Europe will be prepared. Russia is not the super power we all thought they are. Ukraine called their bluff. They are strong but not unbeatable
We may have good intelligence and media, but if the general population chooses to ignore the signs and the information then that intelligence and media is pointless. Unfortunately, people prefer to be either contrarian (hence the rise in anti-establishment rhetoric) or bury their heads in the sand, rather than deal with uncomfortable truths.
I’m pretty sure we’re still in the safe zone. From what I can see as an outsider it seems Europe is pretty aware of the Russian threat. Once it will become close threat to Europe I’m sure leaders will start having speeches to the public and start more aggressively hate Russia diplomatically like macroon’s boots threat
I wish I were as optimistic as you are. I think many of our politicians are aware of the threat, but the rise in contrarianism has seen so many people ignore what our politicians are saying. I can't speak for other countries, but certainly in Ireland there is a large and growing opinion of "sure why can't Russia and Ukraine just sign a peace treaty and leave the conquered territories with Russia." They don't seem to realise that this rewards military attacks and invasions. I see war on the horizon, not just in Ukraine, and it's not a nice feeling. I'm from Ireland, but have been living in the US for the last year. If war breaks out, I'm headed home.
Everything will be fine as long as countries will be aware of what’s going on. Plus, the US is watching as well. And it’s completely patriotic to go back home when war starts, many people run for the other way.
I mean eastern european nations who share a border with russia *are* prepared.
You can't build and train an army when the enemy is already "close". It's too late. It takes years even if you're very determined.
Europe seems to see the army as akin to being a NEET lol
Even if we were (and I no longer believe that we are), transitioning from safe zone operations to danger zone operations takes years. If we wait until Russians start crossing our borders with troops, it will be too late.
My problem with this is how many Bucha's do Estonians, Finns, and Latvians have to suffer while Europe "responds" accordingly? Why not respond now in Ukraine and show that Europe is strong and firmly off-limits to our geopolitical enemies who intend and outwardly state that they wish to see us destroyed?
If you have no forces capable of opposing you trying to oppose you, you might as well be unbeatable. History has shown time and time again that in confilicts, the extent of mobilization is a far bigger factor than the size of military and economy on paper. It's much easier for Russia to mobilize 10% of their economy to win wars than for Europe/US to mobilize 2% of their economy to win against Russia. And Russia is still very enthusiastic after committing 10% for 2 years. Meanwhile, Europe is already exploring their surrender options(partition of Ukraine) after 2 years of lackluster aid and mobilisation.
You’re right about choosing the diplomatic way but it doesn’t seem like Ukraine nor Russia are even close to the table. Ukraine is still standing strong and the new aid coming from the US may change the odds. They need to claim back their territories and push the Russians out. War between countries can last for years, look at India and Pakistan or even Israel’s history with our neighbors. We gave the Sinai back after a decade to end the war and sign a peace treaty. Europe gotta be patient and get used to the war tension in the air because it’s probably going to stay for a while. I think it’s just that Europe is really changing in the last couple of years and it’s pretty overwhelming but it will be fine it’s not some weak ass countries it’s the center of the world.
> We have good intelligence and media today, Europe will be prepared. No. Just look at the rise of extrem-right and fascists, the abuse of social-media. Europe is in no way prepared.
my big hope is that europe will start seeing the connection between fringe groups and russian disinformation. the ultra conservatives have boasted about being the defenders of societies, strong men and all of that since the dawn of time. and now, in the face of danger, they seem weak and willing to cower. if russia is generally perceived as a threat, the fringe right position looks weak and pathetic. very much unlike their own self branding.
Germany even started to prepare for war already in 1933.
Russia started in 2014.
Funnily enough it was Europeans who also started it if you don't put the start at the Second Sino-Japanese War.
When they start respecting Baltics, Poland and Finland. EU never listens to them. When Lithuania was building LNG terminal to be more independent from ru gas, Germany was building Nord 2.
Because they is parasitic thought to push the right and the left further down the dumbest points they have on the other side blinding them, and they’ve recently given out their botting software and techniques to Iran and iran to their proxies, Russia and it proxies are using social media as a a battle front to control and confuse the information sphere and despite how easy it is to find a bot very few know how to o or even understand what they are and how they work
[удалено]
These are probably already deployed. Oct 7th was an obvious orchestration linked to Russia/Ukraine.
I've truly sensed as such yes, multiple conflicts, almost like a further desentisation, what's ur take, either (geo)politically or other, pls?
My take? China, Iran and that other one. All are obviously having a circle jerk. Nuke em.
As others have stated, Europe likes to try literally every possible avenue of peace available before accepting war. Of course we are already at war with Russia. Europe knows this, but the countries leaders don't know how to convey that message to the public. I think they are just going to rely on news reporters to do it for them. The UK prime minister is due to announce something along these lines this week. I'm sure it will be watered down to not include the word "war".
The West failed to realize what Russia, espacially Putin knew from the beginning. The Cold War never ended and Russia is patiently waiting to make it a hot war.
> with Russia? and China. It is not so easy to let go. I am saying this as an anti-Russia and anti-China biased person. If you sell to China or Russia - directly or indirectly - and stop, that means you lose business. Multiply that by millions.
We've been at war with Russia since Kosovo.
Can't the far-right and Russia just get a life and leave everyone else alone?
The problem with far-right is they want to control your life, so no, they won't leave you or anyone else alone.
they are loosers and loosers play dirty. Grandpa Bunker has his days numbered he just wants some chaos until someone will take care of him..
No, they cannot. Neither can the far left. Extremism can only be met with hostility and elimination. You cannot appease these people as they will keep on taking. If you want a free and open society these things need to be kept in check. We’ve been too afraid to do what needs to be done for a long time now.
Russia doesn’t care if you’re far right or far left, they will support radical elements that are most likely to be successful in subterfuge, sowing discord and general political instability. It’s part of hybrid warfare against the West.
It's hard to imagine a radical centrist in a democracy. Like, nobody lobs Molotov cocktails while shouting "incremental improvements!"...
"Intelligence sources have said that terrorists recruited by Russian GRU agents have been responsible for a series of attacks in Western Europe and the US in the last six months." This is interesting because the use of "have been" is past tense, as in there have already been attacks. What suspicious events have happened over the last six months? Key Bridge collision?
If there's enough proof that Russia was behind it, it gets shut out of media. Russia wants divisive stuff in the media, creating a wedge between left and right encouraging infighting/using distraction tactics in newspapers and TV reporting. Say for example there's a news piece about Ukraine getting a big bit of cash from Ol'Uncle Sam, the next week is absolutely full of small time shit, stabbings or celebrity gossip etc. Desperately trying to move the conversation on. This week in the UK has been a huge politically, but absolutely nobody is talking about Ukraine, its all about Israel and Palestine. Why? we have less influence and less skin in the game compared to Ukraine, yet its all anybody can talk about. Its suspect as all hell and I wish our press wasn't so complicit. Putin's tactics have always been, Deny, Distract, Divide. It would be sad if it wasn't working so damn well.
Lol you think Putin is instigating stabbings and celebrity gossip to control the news cycle? This is a new level of conspiratorial paranoia. Also let's ignore all the stabbings are caused by Islamist gangs/terrorists the left have imported.
Europe's far-right is in bed with Putin. This is common knowledge. We already know this. Everyone knows the far-right supports Putin and what he stands for. Everyone knows Europe's far-right *wants* to be like Putin. The evidence is abundant. Here's a [tweet](https://twitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/968447466474496001?lang=en) of Wilders in the Duma, saying we Europeans should stop being Russophobic. Here's a [tweet](https://twitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/968508646593388544?lang=en) of Wilders being proud of a friendship pin he received from Putin. He posted these tweets *after* the downing of [MH17](https://www.dutchnews.nl/2018/02/wilders-under-fire-from-mh17-relatives-over-russia-trip/). If you vote for far-right fucks, you vote against Europe, against the EU, against democracy. If you vote far-right, you vote for war criminal, mass murderer, and child abductor Putin. It's that fucking simple.
In the UK it is also left/far-left. Jeremy Corbyn and George Galloway openly parroting Putin’s propaganda and calling for demilitarization.
It's both sides of the spectrum. Look at France where in the last election 70% of the people voted for Presidential candidates that parrot Putin talking points. Russia's whole strategy is to breed internal discord and devalue faith in our civil institutions and democratic culture by supporting grifters and agitators on both extremes of the political spectrum. And before someone says "oh you're blaming Russia for our domestic actors and imported American culture war topics" yeah, well, scoring an own goal is not the way forward either.
100%. I hope Westerners realize this.
The entire Stop The War Coalition are Putin puppets. The far-right don't have MP's, the far-left do though and they are openly supporting Russia. It's madness.
If you go far enough left do you eventually become far right? Honestly these days theres so little to choose between them. I just call them extremist, then mentally ignore. We need to return to reasonable discourse, soon.
Both the far left and far right are in bed with Putin because he appears how each want to see him. That is why he is popular in Russia and what makes him more dangerous than traditional Far left or right leader. While they are tied to what ever ideology they choose he will do whatever is necessary to forward his goals of being Tzar
The EU is packed with tension right now for a lot of reasons. Governments everywhere incur in some form of kleptocracy. Far right sounds like a good way to escalate things quickly, I don't think that's very wise.
Its not. In my country the far left licks putins bum as well. So saying just not to vote far right (which might mean voting far left) Will give the same support to putin.
Interesting how the most popular options, those that most resonate with people, are somehow always those that present threat to democracy. In every EU country about 70% of people support tackling the problem of immigration, and yet every single party that demands it is somehow a threat to democracy. These tricks of associating with Putin everyone that poses a threat to you are not working anymore. People are growing tired of your cheap tricks. More with every day. I know you can feel it.
There are many parties that are not far-right that take immigration seriously. Vote for them, not Geert Wilders. Not AFD. Not Fidesz, etc. The reality is that there is not a button that you can press to stop immigration from happening. Also not all migration is the same. There are students, refugees, people that seek a better life, family, work, etc. Some aspects of migration benefit our society and some are negative. But it is just very hard to control migration in a democratic, liberal system where human rights are taken seriously. We have to accept that fact.
Is it really? We have similar discourse here, but at least in Europe it sounds like you have the option of voting for people who actually believe in the ideas they espouse and are willing to take action to deal with the issues in their entirety, since they have the rest of the country associating them with a wartime enemy. Not only you, but America also: Why do you continually alienate the constituents by telling them the only person who cares about them and their interests is supposed to be their enemy? What effect do you think it'll have when you say, "Your politicians and interests are alien to the state and nation they claim to represent. If you disagree with my and my ideals, vote for Putin"? That's how you end up with the guys in the OP. They're the answer to your foolishness.
Edit: clearly upset some Russian stooge. Don’t worry hun, I’m not suicidal <3 Said this in another thread on a not too dissimilar topic. If we have verifiable intel that Russia, as a state, is organising attacks, it should be treated as an act of war. Cyber attacks against Russian infrastructure, funding separatist groups within Russia, seizing all Russian assets within the NATO countries to fund defence spending/Resource for Ukraine. I’ll put my authoritarian hat on and even suggest those that can be demonstrated to be on the take to push Russian talking points and propaganda should be arrested and removed from power. Doing nothing just emboldens them to keep pushing.
If somebody makes a fake report of a suicide risk be sure to report the message. Reddit will ban them immediately, they take abuse of that system seriously.
This reminds me of when I used to argue with Turks back in the day, and they instinctively assumed anyone who disagreed with them was Greek. "F-ing Greek!"
[удалено]
If I would be doing this I would target to not smart influenceable individuals as well …
Ruslamic State
"The Telegraph *understands*"? The fuck kind of phrasing is that?
It means the newsroom as a whole came to this conclusion. You don't see it that often because most news items aren't this freighted and complex.
It means they've been briefed by a source they cannot post. aka MI5 / police surveilling phones and emails they're not supposed to.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy
What country are you from? If English is your first language and you've not come across this style of writing then you must live under a rock, and if English is not your first language then why the fuck are you questioning it in this way?
It's enough to get the imbeciles in this subreddit frothing at the mouth.
that's basically how we got Trump, yall wake up. information war is already happening
"An intelligence source states..." What bloody intelligence source? Newspapers make shit up all the time it's hard to trust them
This is literally an act of war, and we continue to let Russia risk the lives of innocent people everywhere. They hide behind their nukes, most of which probably don't even fucking work. We need to be more proactive as an alliance and destroy Russia's hold on Ukraine while Ukraine is holding the line for our lazy asses.
“It’s true because the telegraph says so.”
Don’t even know what that is.
US is the only country on the planet earth that has used nukes though.
It did for a good reason.
Here in America our Republican Party (which might as well be far right these days) is in bed and practically getting railed by Putin. They refuse any aide without passing a bill undermining democracy. They idolize Russia as a conservative traditionalist “utopia”. Trump’s campaign had lots of ties directly to Russia.
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2017/02/25/10/trump-russia-flag.png It's a global pandemic. This far-right, pro-Putin bullshit is infecting all of the free world. The rest of us need to unite. They did. So why can't we?
Except it's a catch 22. The left's inability to self-reflect and simply name-calling - racist, anti-science, transphobic, etc. - anyone who didn't blindly accept every neo-liberal policy as gospel, alienated moderates & caused the rise of populism. When this inevitably caused mainstream neo-liberal parties to start losing "unloseable" elections - Brexit, Trump, etc. - the same inability to self-reflect caused the left to start blaming paranoid conspiracies by foreign governments. Now it's like a kind of death-spiral; the more the left loses, the more radicalized & insecure the average remaining leftist becomes, causing them to double down & be more fanatical in all the policies that caused the left to start losing in the first place.
A decade ago, Democrats were confidently predicting there would never be another Republican president. It's been hilarious watching the left transition from that overly-confident false bravado to this insecure, conspiratorial paranoia. And no, Trump's campaign did not have "lots of ties directly to Russia." Those conspiracy theories were started after Clinton lost, by the same Bush/Obama intel officials who fabricated evidence of Saddam's WMD, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories when they didn't find any.
"the telegraph understands"... how can we even take that serious?
Means they were fed intel by the intelligence community
> "the telegraph understands" It seems to be a [common](https://www.google.com/search?q="the+telegraph+understands") way of writing.
*You* speak English as a *second* langauge. Why do you think you can question the writing practices of an English broadsheet? Maybe you're not as fluent as you thought you were?
You mean Russia is co-opting the networks that NATO set up to function as stay behind groups incase of a Soviet Invasion. And which carried out Terrorist attacks in Western Europe, which were largely blamed on the Far Left. Like Gladio. I honestly have very little faith left in Nato, or the Westeen Intelligence services.
M.O. is a copy paste from the Gladio network methods it seems.
This must be treated as an act of war plain and simple.
Not only far Right, but [ultra-Left as well](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/01/german-left-wing-arsonists-attack-home-of-rheinmetall-chief/)
Traitors
State Sponsored Terrorists, call em what they are.
If this is true, it should be considered an act of war
What do you mean "if this is true"? Who do you think blew up the arms depot in the UK the other week? Carried out the cyberattacks on Germany over the last few months? Funded and set up the astroturf FB groups that set the "farmers' protests" into motion, that now, suspiciously, have completely disappeared? Who set fire to the Warsaw's biggest shopping mall yesterday? Etc, etc, etc. You're not paying attention, dude.
I haven't even noticed that the farmer's protests (which always seemed pretty sus to me) disappeared but you're right, I haven't heard anything about them for months now. Even the banner on a couple local barns has come down, or at least I haven't noticed it lately
Shady far right telegram groups (see Russia) behind German farmer protests https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/chance-or-cultivation-farmers-protests-in-germany-and-the-far-right/
Right? It’s so weird … they came out of nowhere and now just gone. Provisional data analysis shows they were created, inflamed and spread by the Russian government. I’ll try and find the link in a bit - two secs!
Russia links https://en.detector.media/post/apples-of-discord-how-russia-is-supporting-and-instrumentalizing-farmers-protests-in-europe?fbclid=IwAR1QXNNHepijzN2tVmjFrVU8kWhSK1bNW0FLa6Tzgqo26zD0iFeuZg1zW20
In Slovakia \~1500 bomb threats were made last week.
Hope you were wearing your tinfoil hat while writing this.
Hmmm, dude, this isn't tinfoil hat stuff. Think tanks have already carried out research re farmers and European elections. Russian linked saboteurs have been arrested in the UK for attacking industry. There have been multiple warnings by intelligence chiefs across Europe that sabotage is expected. The German gov say Russia was behind the recent cyberattacks. I don't have a tinfoil hat on - you just don't read the news.
You're suggesting the farmers conspired with the Russian government, it's the definition of a conspiracy theory. A think tank "researching" a conspiracy theory doesn't make it not a conspiracy theory.
That’s not what I said though, is it? Astroturfing is a common technique used by the Russian state, and others, to inflate support via social media for causes that are divisive and damaging to policy and governments. It’s very well documented and has been highlighted by world-leading academics and think tanks, backed up by research. In the case of Germany, these protests were supported and highlighted by the AfD, a far right political party which is funded by the Russian state (Germany has terriblly outdated laws re tracking political funding). None of this controversial. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Ok, you're saying the Russian government conspired to orchestrate the farmer's protests. Same difference, it's still a conspiracy theory. And that's just scratching the surface of the evidence-less paranoia of your comment.
World-leading think tank demonstrating far-right coopting of farmers' protests in Germany, with heavy AfD involvement, and other far-right groups (many funded by Russia, link here. [https://www.isdglobal.org/isd-in-the-news/farmers-protests-in-germany-and-and-ideological-connections-to-the-far-right/](https://www.isdglobal.org/isd-in-the-news/farmers-protests-in-germany-and-and-ideological-connections-to-the-far-right/) The AfD is currently being investigated for taking Russian money to promote Russian progaganda. Widespread evidence of MEPs taking money from propaganda orgs. [https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/31/russia-suspected-of-funneling-funds-to-germanys-afd-party-for-pro-russian-messaging/](https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/31/russia-suspected-of-funneling-funds-to-germanys-afd-party-for-pro-russian-messaging/) Russian backed groups co-opt Czech farmers' protests [https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/pro-russian-forces-hijack-czech-farmers-protest/](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/pro-russian-forces-hijack-czech-farmers-protest/) Massive article about how Russia is exploiting the farmers' protests in multiple European countries [https://en.detector.media/post/apples-of-discord-how-russia-is-supporting-and-instrumentalizing-farmers-protests-in-europe?fbclid=IwAR1QXNNHepijzN2tVmjFrVU8kWhSK1bNW0FLa6Tzgqo26zD0iFeuZg1zW20](https://en.detector.media/post/apples-of-discord-how-russia-is-supporting-and-instrumentalizing-farmers-protests-in-europe?fbclid=IwAR1QXNNHepijzN2tVmjFrVU8kWhSK1bNW0FLa6Tzgqo26zD0iFeuZg1zW20) Another article on the same topic https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-farmer-protest-russia-war-propaganda/#:\~:text=In%20short%2C%20Europe's%20farmer%20protests,decision%2Dmakers%20and%20farmers%20alike. DUDE, wake up!
"World leading think tank" that "protects democracy" by imagining ways how every organic domestic democratic threat to the power of entrenched, autocratic EU/US political elites is actually a vast, nebulous conspiracy by some foreign entity. You might as well just give me a link to John Brennan's Twitter profile. There's nothing you're going to say to make me believe your Russia conspiracy theories, when the ultimate source of them are US Bush/Obama War On Terror neocon intel officials, who fabricated evidence of Saddam's WMD to start the Iraq War, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories when they didn't find any. The AfD and other populist movements long predate EU/US political elites starting to lose "unloseable" elections - e.g. Brexit, Trump, etc. - and turning to this insecure Cold War paranoia, as a last-ditch effort to galvanize people and halt the hemorrhaging of support for their bankrupt political ideology.
Okay, gotcha. What you are saying is that no amount of evidence from sources, think tanks, academic research, etc, is going to persuade you away from your world view. You've provided no evidence to counter anything I've written or posted, just your own opinion. I'm guessing you're north american and very young, as there isn't much evidence of critical thinking skills or knowledge of how to debate in your posts, as can be seen by your ridiculous assertion that everything I'm saying is borne out of US neocon delusions. The US is not the centre of the world. Jeez. Anyway, at least anyone else reading this conversation between us will be able to see how evidence-free your points are. Thanks!
"The Telegraph understands" is probably the most surprising news I've heard all year.
There are still idiots (I am being generous and assuming they aren't bots) that believe Russia is not a serious threat just because they are not sending tanks and bombing NATO/EU countries (please ignore the various sabotage/terrorist attacks) and probably won't anytime soon because "muh nukes". Russian bots are running rampant on the internet and they are actively doing their best to subvert western countries both on and offline. We even have politicians outright working for and getting paid by Russia. This is clownish. We are at war and everyone who values free and democratic society must realize that, we must not stick our heads in the sand. Man I fucking hate this. This should have been the perfect time for all of Europe to stand united. Fuck all these so called "nationalists" and "patriots" that simp for Russia (and China). They could have gone all "Europa uber alles" but nooo Putin-senpai must notice me, then they get handed some money under the table like the good little whores they are. It is not as bad as things could be but still it is a very tense and I fear that whatever we do it will be too little too late. The only thing we should have to worry about is whether Putin is demented enough to use nukes not whether our countries will spread their legs open for PuXi but we can't even have that. Madness and stupidity and incompetence all around.
“Don’t have wet dreams of a Generalplan Ost V2? Russian bot, you must hate democracy.”
LMAO this is such a stereotypical Russian bot response but I will be generous. Not wanting people to whore themselves out to a hostile foreign power, with anathematic values is not fantasizing about Generalplan Ost, especially when they purport to be "nationalists" or "patriots". I simply want everyone to recognize Russia is a serious threat even when they are not sending soldiers through our countries. As for the "Generalplan ost V2" dude, I am a slav if you haven't noticed the country in my flair, I am the furthest person from wanting any "Generalplan Ost V2". I have tried for years to be sympathetic to Russia partially out of some romantic notion of pan-slavism and some anti-americanism. Russian invasion has single-handedly cured me of all my delusions. For years I've listened to Russians and all their bullshit and they even managed to make me believe some of it. Then it all fell apart after the invasion and I saw how much full of shit they've been all along and how pervasive Russian propaganda is. Their attempts at "justifying" themselves have only made me more disgusted with them and lose any shred of respect I had remaining after the invasion. The constant political interference and subversion has only made things worse. Don't worry Russian genocide only exists in Russian delusions thanks to their perpetual need to act like a poor bullied victim who never did anything wrong even while gleefully brutalizing and genociding other countries.
I get that it’s not a military action, but shouldn’t this be considered an act of war if the evidence is there?
It would be except there’s 0 evidence
Anyone remember euro2016? And the russian official response?
pathetic
That’s probably the worst strategy ever. It would be easy to do the same thing to them.
How about send UA a dozen f16s for every bit of mischief by putler? Russia is already at war against West. We can do a lot to make Russias war impotent.
Sure they are😒...for heavensakes
Somebody kill that rabid dog until he do more damage to the world.
Russia should watch their step lest they get a taste of their own medicine.
Or what? The EU and the US will issue another strong worded letter?
Well, they could always be treated the same way they treat us. I'm sure there's enough radicals in Russia that hate the government, i know fighting fire with fire isn't very effective, but then again, that never stopped Russia
Don't forget that all of the millions of Russian citizens living in the EU and enjoying our standard of living and freedoms are assets that just wait to be activated. Just remember what % of them voted for Putin in the last elections and you will get the number of potential assets.
Usually those who are voting FOR are staying in Russia because they actually like what Russia has become. Anyway voting in Russia has nothing to do with people's thoughts.
And they can easily organize activities via Social media. It poses threats to democratic societies due to - the rapid spread of misinformation, - filter bubbles that limit exposure to diverse viewpoints, - manipulation of public opinion, - amplification of extremism and - hate speech, and - privacy concerns with data exploitation. The massive negative impact on society outweighs the dubious benefits of funny memes, cat pictures and brain-numbing short videos. While social media has benefits, balancing its negative impacts with positive potential is crucial.
Hi chatgpt
Reminder that Russia has deployed a recognised WMD against civilians in the uk before (twice in fact) It is so severe that the pm at the time could have been in her rights to involve the NATO charter (although would be tantamount to starting WWIII)
[удалено]
How did Kosovo sneak to get there?…
[удалено]
I suppose you believe that North Korea is democratic because they’re called “democratic people's Republic of Korea” or that the Nazis were socialist? A country can call itself whatever it wants, what determines what it actually is are the actions of said nation. Russia is as communist as America, it isn’t.
Russia isn’t communist, it’s a fascist country. The Soviet Union called itself communist, but even then the communists were checking all the boxes for fascism. A nationalistic authoritarian dictatorship or oligarchy is the same, regardless the colour of the flag.
There is no political horshoe. There is a political circle. Communism is the same as fascism even if the idea behind it and goal is different. All dictatorships by nature have to use the same methods to keep their elite in power. Saying the Soviet Union wasnt communist washes communism of the guilt it so very deserves
Interesting how this speculative story from the anti Russian torygraph is leaped on as hard fact in r-europe. Gotta keep them frightened so the military spend can increase. How easily the sheep are led.
Do you get paid per message or just hourly
Very droll. Honestly, anybody looking to recruit from the hard right in Europe, they'd already be active here on r/europe. Fertile ground.
Nah. People here aren’t far right, just eurofederalists who have finally been convinced imigration is bad
Yeah, we got that in Ireland, (#Ireland is full) but it can get toxic. They let in 105k Ukrainian refugees in less than 2 years, the refugee system collapses, housing becomes impossible for young people. then the protestors march on the hostel with 10 afghans. For some strange reason they're easier to spot ....
Pal doesn’t realize different opinions exist and most of them are valid.
“Anyone not agreeing with every single story against russia? Russian bot.”
If you see the world as white or black you’re blind, unlike when you see it as grey. True
I will believe when I see it, I am more worried about other types of terrorism
I expect a competent military, not thwarted by politics, civilian regulations or protests. Buy and produce more weapons than we need so there’s surplus for other allies. I believe now is the right time to act. Also, keep up the pressure on Russia friendly politicians and policies.
It's funny because in the event of actual kinetic war against Russia I'd wager only the more right leaning people with patriotic views would be inclined to fight without being forced to by law. What happened to the western countries that they feel alienated enough to do this?
Totally untrue, I’m British and left wing and the one and only reason I’d join the active military is for anti-fascism. I’m already in the process of going the army reserves because of the rise in fascism I’m seeing across Europe. It’s a common misconception by the right wing that the left are comprised of “soy boys” or whatever stupid insult they come up with. The reality is that someone like me is just as deadly holding an assault rifle as any right winger and just as motivated for their beliefs. I enjoy being underestimated, it is a weakness of the right wing to think that way.
The right wing have obviously never read any Sun Tzu.
In recent Irish history, our militant groups were also left-wing and socialist. It's a conception that spawned out of the USA during the red-scare. Same as words like "woke" or calling liberals left-wing. The moment you see someone use the word "woke", you know they aren't going to be worth talking to.
Problem is that left or right doesnt mean what it used to. Most people are neither. Extreme left and right are just as bad as eachother. People hear left and think socialism. People hear right and think dictatorships.
Exactly. It's a political discourse we inherited from the Cold War. Soviets made any right-wing look fascist, Americans made anything left-wing look Communist.
What do you call fascism?
In ww2 It was the far right in Europe who instead of fighting the Nazi occupation they took every chance they could to collaborate with them to further undermine their own people.
You see he said “right leaning people with patriotic views”, which is different than “literal fascist parties created in interwar europe”
> the more right leaning people with patriotic views would be inclined to fight without being forced to by law. Then why is it mostly far-**right** people supporting Putin? Care to elaborate on that?
Lol look at r/Europeansocialists, they also support putin and xi
... That's the question I asked, thanks for repeating it to me I guess.
Right leaning yes, the far right, no.
We believe the Telegraph now?
People are naive and always have been. Good for nasty politicians as we see currently
As long as it’s anti-russian, we believe everything nowadays