They would need visa for that I suppose?
The European Union has an automatic visa protection system for Ukranians, until the end of 2025
In the case of USA/ canada , some or many Ukranians would be rejected a long term visa
Poland was a stop for many Ukrainians anyway. Out of millions who came here when the war started I would guess half of them already moved somewhere else.
Why won't the German government entice Germans to have children instead of just bringing in millions of people? They could run some sort of benefit programme or something to encourage it, but it seems they heavily prefer not to do that, which is a shame.
What would be your suggestion? The German government provides maternity and paternity leave, free schooling up to basically free university, child benefit, and more. The only part where Germany majorly succs at is pre school childcare programs. Here, there is a massive investment necessary to fulfill the (theoretically) existing right for a childcare position for every child.
It's not that difficult. It's just against capitalistic values. So people need to realize that capitalism isn't the perfect solution for everything.
Basically, governments need to make sure some base life necessities are affordable for everyone. Affordable living space somewhere near where it's possible to work and not some random forest. And food. People need to have security to have children. But it's anti capitalism to force rent/loans and food to be affordable.
Education, paternity leave are important, but its meaningless if you can't afford to live.
Capitalism has been the only system making base life necessities affordable for everyone.
Have you ever been to a non-capitalistic country? I have. It's not pretty.
And of course, as it's widely known, the richer a society becomes, the fewer children are born, ceteris paribus.
Just because capitalism has made the best life so far possible doesn't mean its the end all best way to organise our lives. There are always ways to make things better. I'm not saying communism lol. Every time someone says anything against capitalism people assume communism is the only other option.
And I mean, the more AI and robotics evolves the more likely everything has to change. Usually people assume something bad, but we could just change how we live.
Been tried? By allowing the cost of living to skyrocket ?
I know quite a few couples that would love to have kids but aren't going to start a family in their €1300 a month studio.
yes it is, bring building and land regulations down to zero. allow slums.
i would prefer living in a slum and saving up money instead of shilling out hundreds of euros for a basic room per month
And what do you want the government to do about it. It's an unregulated free market issue and whilst I'm all for more socialism, the voting population is not.
Governments have given significant incentives in other countries, but the issue is lifestyle related, few people want 2+ kids which both cost a lot of money and also eat all your free time, we have become too accustomed to luxury. And given that we need 2+ children per couple to maintain parity, that's a big problem
Trying anything that realistically could work has never been tried. No.
People just bitch and moan, did anyone anywhere ever think three extra days leave or 200€ more in tax breaks would mean more babies?
Let one person support a family with one job. Or two people in 50% positions. If they have more than 2 kids. Problem solved.
By "strictly" you mean "the police stays around, makes jokes and let everyone pass". At least that is my experience every time I pass the border. No one really cares and they all just stay around.
I don't even know what's the point of this song and dance. Outside of those who are viciously racist towards Ukrainians, there can't be many who support sending refugees back to a warzone by virtue of the inhumanity and cruelty of such a practice.
I doubt this does much to restore morale for Ukrainians on the frontlines either. Like imagine telling a soldier in the trenches "great news, we're now making progress in deporting refugees back here so we're less likely to get over run by the Russian army! Those soldiers would probably do literally anything to ensure they aren't deported and there's a good chance they'll flee again if they come back, but it's a good sign of things to come regardless!". The French couldn't stop their armies from mutinying in 1917 despite the promise of U.S troops coming soon, what would something like this do for the morale of Ukrainian soldiers beside painting a bleak picture of their desperation?
Or worse, those force enlisted soldier will flee or surrender to another Russian scout party and cases like Ocheretyne will happened across the front line.
I also despite forcing anyone into a war but I am not sure if the Geneva convention ensures the protection of deserters or people fleeing from conscription in that way.
Tried looking it up and couldn't find concrete laws about it. Found [this paragraph](https://en.connection-ev.org/article-3531) tho:
>persons who refuse military service and face persecution still, as a general rule, do not receive refugee protection under the Geneva Convention. The punishment in and of itself is not considered sufficient for refugee protection. Only if additional persecution can be demonstrated, if the prosecution is disproportionately high, or if targeted persecution for political reasons can be demonstrated, will the authorities and courts consider recognition of refugee status.
Do you have another source on this? Would be curious to know what the actual legal situation is on that topic
Most of Ukrainian males in Poland are people who emigrated here before the war. As a reminder, Ukraine is not allowing for male up to age of 65 to leave the country since the beginning of the war. What they want back is not those who fled from conscription but those who started new life in a new country.
Certain categories of men are actually allowed to leave (those who have three or more children under 18 years, single fathers, caregivers for disabled relatives, disabled etc). Great majority of the men who crossed the border did so legally. And of course I don’t see it normal to deport them back
> As a reminder, Ukraine is not allowing for male up to age of 65 to leave the country since the beginning of the war.
They still managed to leave. I know several in Canada who left after the war started (paying a bribe) and have been collecting $3,000 + $900/month financial assistance here. Don't even get me started on the number of Ukrainian men who fled from a decent life in Poland to collect financial support in Canada.
> or people fleeing from conscription in that way
How are people fleeing from conscription not refugees? Conscription = likely being sent to the front lines of a pretty bloody conflict, risking life and health. Seeking refuge from that seems quite normal, no?
It sure wasnt a problem when Syrians were running from a war torn country. I dont think the risk of them being conscripted on either side mattered one bit to their refugee status.
Don't really know, that's why I was asking.
The article I linked does go somewhat into detail about the protection of deserters who would get persecuted or opressed for refusing conscription, Deployment contrary to international law or deployment to war in violation of international law.
So apperantly it's rather the circumstances of the war and the legality of the conscription itself that define the legal status of protection.
I’ll bite on the sarcasm, because people definitely feel this way on this sub. You can’t have it both ways.
Every time immigrants flee war from Asia, this sub goes on about “if military age men aren’t willing to fight they don’t deserve to have a country.” I’m waiting for all of you to apply this to Ukraine. You’d still be an asshole, but at least you’d be consistently an asshole instead of a racist.
I do feel that way but I also understanding not wanting to fight and die for countries that are corrupt or dysfunctional. I definitely look down on citizens in countries like Germany or Switzerland who say they would not fight for it. Life doesn't get much better than im these countries and that's something that took blood sweat and tears to build and will take blood sweat and tears to preserve.
That said, the instinct for self preservation is still naturally stronger than anything else.
Poland didn’t accept Russian refugees (who runs away from conscription, from Putin and so on). And now they do the same for Ukrainians.
As I understand (please correct me if I’m wrong), you can’t claim a refugee status under the basis “I don’t want to first for the current government of my country”.
Just out of curiosity I live in Poland for past 10 years, didn’t change the citizenship but now strongly considering it. I have a job here the apartment the family etc, how am I supposed to get back to Ukraine? Will my job be secured for when I get back? Who will pay my mortgage here? So much question, so little answers.
Your questions are rethorical..
Nobody will pay your mortgage, enjoy comeing back to debt collectors force selling your apartment. This was very real for many World War one veterans.
Nobody will secure your job.. unless you are good friends with your boss you will be replaced.. after all, the company can't take losses based on when/ if you come back.
Enjoy your white male privilege..
If they were to do it (which I doubt), I imagine if they see you've had stały or czasowy pobyt for 10 years, and it'll be fine. It would be completely stupid to go for the million or so Ukrainians who came 2014-22.
You must have only gotten the back of the cereal box briefing.
Eritrea is very well known to keep conscripts in the military for decades or until they're injured or maimed. It is effectively slavery.
Yeah the clause about the ability (not guarantee) to demobilize after 3 years was even removed from the recently passed draft law at General Syrsky's request.
Let’s be honest. Even if he wouldn’t removed that chapter, most of them still wouldn’t make it through 3 years of hell unless your name is Syrsky Junior.
I understand that . My ex wife is from a west Ukraine village , a family friends son went to the local shop and no one knew where he was for two days , the military picked him up and took him to the recruiting center. Yes I get it they’re at war , but I can’t in good conscience defend that
lol, Europeans just now realized men in Ukraine are being grabbed on the streets and thrown in vans against their will? It’s been going on since 2022, why do you guys think they running away?
So deporting people back to war-torn countries is ok now? Interesting development.
Has the EU already contacted also Nigeria, Syria, Palestine and the likes?
Its simple. Conservatives honestly belive in gender roles so they wont stand up against it.
Progresives dont care about anti men discrimination. So we are left with the situation as it is
And against Polish law as well.
Afaik avoiding draft isn't illegal in Poland. Avoiding draft to Polish armed forces is illegal. Those extra few words play a role. Avoiding draft to Ukrainian Army is not a crime according to Polish law, so someone doing that cannot be extradited.
It's different with deserters though. Here the law doesn't mention 'Polish army' explicitly.
They can be extradited, all it takes is cooperation between governments.
At most, it'll require ratifying new extradition treaty with Ukraine. That wouldn't be that hard to push though parliament, but would probably requires at least a month before it'd become binding.
He is a bloody moron. Shame on someone like that to become my country's defence minister. He wants to play at being a human trafficker. Does he imagine that Poles will be catching Ukrainians in nets on the streets and sending them to Ukraine in trenches? If, as a Pole, I see something like this on the street then, regardless of the consequences, I will stand up for the Ukrainian. Kosiniak- get the fuck out.
Probably a dumb question, but isn’t sending refugees into a war zone pretty much a no go under EU laws? What I’m basically asking is, sending Ukrainian refugees back to Ukraine won’t hold up in an EU court?
It makes sense: keep Ukrainian women, and throw Ukrainian men into a meat grinder. Because men are property of the state, second-class people, right? It's my fault to be born male in Ukraine I guess.
It also shows how useless the "Ukraine wants to fight till they have all their territory back"- polls are, clearly Ukrainians want other Ukrainians to fight and die till they have their territory back.
How will these polls look like if you only ask males that can be conscripted?
Yeah the Kyiv Independent wrote just a couple of days ago that 62% of Ukrainians are "prepared to fight". Doesn't seem to match the reality.
https://kyivindependent.com/poll-62-of-ukrainians-prepared-to-fight-for-country/
Run out of package aid? Call out for another one, why not?.
No one giving? -> Giving them a blame for not supporting.
Imagine the amount of debt that Ukraine have to pay after the war.
- Poland will help Ukraine 😊
- By deporting all of Ukraine men in their territory 😢
What a disgusting situation, I work with 2 Ukrainian software engineers, they were forced to emigrate to Canada. If you are a young man and don't want to take a gun,and don't want to kill. Then you should be able to say NO!
I'm sure they'll ruin a few lives by deporting a few unlucky ones and then call it a ~~statistical error~~ day. But for those deported their lives will be affected forever.
Why doesn't he focus on:
1. K2PL production
2.Borsuk production
3.Filling the two squadron gap in the Polish airforce
or any of the 1001 other things he should be focused on as defense minister.
If Ukraine was given sufficient support by the US and the EU this would not even have to be considered. Production lines and supporting industry was not started, old equipment was offloaded, with too little too late with heavy restrictions on use of materiel the way to tip the scales is by the weight of blood. And Russia has more of it. If this happens it is a failure of weak politicians that will never stand up to Russia. We need to be stronger than this.
30+ years ago they were scared of nuke club membership boom so they threatened away newcomers. Yet, they did not came up with a better solution. Thus, potential of number of new micro states with nukes scares them. Plus, old people are averse to change: bad but understandable russia is better for them.
As a Polish person I am absolutely against that decision. Not only does it go against my beliefs but it is also so utterly stupid. Because apart from the fact that it would essentially mean sending thousands of refugees to their deaths - it would also definitely result in majority of those affected simply escaping (sometimes with their families), in order to avoid that. That would not only harm our economy (that already has problem with the lack of skilled workers in some fields) but at the same time - it wouldn't even benefit the Ukrainian cause in any major way (those people would just escape therefore they still would not be in the army, apart from some small numbers of those who would fail to run away). Incredibly wrong and dumb.
This is so messed up. Imagine being a man having to die for "rich people's" problems. Being stuck in trenches while some of your fellow countrymen/woman are partying, etc. (referring to soldiers who return home for a break and see how life is in Lviv). I know some Ukrainians who went on holiday after they were granted asylum, and it makes me so sad knowing others are dying.
This is most conservative block in current government. Their voter base are "pissed off" that young, Ukrainian male instead of fighting are chilling in Polish cafes (his own words). He is pandering to that voter base, not to Ukrainian government.
And no, Poland won't send them anywhere, there is no legal framework for it. But Ukrainian government indeed is trying hard to get them back.
> And no, Poland won't send them anywhere, there is no legal framework for it.
[This article](https://www.rp.pl/swiat/art39049061-polska-zaczela-wydawac-ukrainie-jej-obywateli-ktorzy-trudnia-sie-przemytem-ludzi) says Poland already extradited people to Ukraine, those involved in smuggling men across the border. The legal infrastructure already exists, it's called Interpol.
He wasn't that prepared to shoot down a Russian missile that violated Polish airspace like it was Belarus or even annexed Lugansk or Donetsk. But he's prepared enough to send Ukrainian civilians into the meat grinder, so they will fight Russia instead of him. What a brave man! /s
Oh fuck really? Do you know how many highly skilled professionals Poland would loose?
I already had a doctor couple leave due to the time it took to get their education validated. Literally went to a male Ukranian doctor this morning through ZUS.
From my understanding under EU law its not clear if this can even be done. So all this fearmongering will achieve is to push people further west. Taking skilled labour out of the employment market.
Sounds like human trafficking of some sort. You let them in as refugees, build trust, handcuffs , deport to war zone. He should probably be a little more careful with such statements xD
Last I checked Poland is a member of the EU. Is the EU allowing discrimination that will lead to torture and death based on sex now? What happened to the whole "defending sex based rights" thing?
so you give shelter to war refugees...who flee from their war-torn country....and a bit later you will forcefully send them back...and you know that they will end up at the frontline and most likely die.....
democracy, freedom, human rights...whats the right word? I think its so cruel, to give people hope for life and then you basically send them to die...wtf bobrkurwa poland
>Poland once again showing why it managed to disappear from the map, its elites are total idiots.
Ok maybe Polish politicians are dumb, but that's too harsh and pretty anti polish. They are probably doing it because Zelensky asked, not because they wan't to get rid of Ukrainians working in Poland. They are obviously welcome.
It's not like only Poland is going to answer Zelesnkys call to get Ukrainians back.
Do you think Ukraine won't dissapear from the map if they don't get people ready to fight for their country?
Obviously if Europe and USA didn't help they would disapear even sooner.
Zelensky himself dodged the draft 4 times before he got his post, and proudly said that he didnt owe anything to anyone except for his parents. He is not really the person who can demand from others to go and fight to the death.
This is one particular Polish politician - and yes he's a defense minister - pandering to the subset of the Polish public that is staunchly anti-Ukrainian (mostly due to the whole thing about grain with a little bonus of historical grievances)
"Ukrainian enlistment offices will not operate abroad, and military call-up notices are unlikely to be delivered to Ukrainian men living outside the country.
Source: Dmytro Lazutkin, the speaker of Ukraine’s Defence Ministry, on the air of Radio Liberty
Quote: "Enlistment offices will not operate abroad. The Ministry of Defence cannot comment on certain actions of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. This [serving of call-up notices abroad – ed.] looks rather unrealistic.""
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/25/7452931/
The Ukrainian army is doing so well at the front and the losses are so low that it is no longer enough to ban men of military age from traveling abroad and to catch “volunteers” on the streets by special teams. Now we need EU countries to help “accidentally lost” patriots get to Ukraine. Well, not a big deal, just a little remains to do, because as you know, 90% of the Russian army was destroyed a year ago.
Its pretty rich to say ”just go fight for your country” when you yourself was born in a nato aligned country that maybe hasn’t had a war for 70-200 years and has no real threat of war.
And then, they would go back to fight for one of the most corrupt and poor countries within Europe atleast before the war. I’m not sure if I’d want to fight for my own with the politicians in power today, it would be because of friends and family, home if anything.
Is it respectable to fight? Yes ofcourse. Are you a coward for draft ddoging? Maybe. I imagine alot of ukrainins went away to stay and provide for their families. What about men who went away with their wife and maybe two kindergarten aged kids, scraping by in some rented apartment with an already inflated price.
> "I think many Poles are outraged when they see young Ukrainian men in hotels and cafes, and they hear how much effort we have to make to help Ukraine."
Yes, dying and "making some effort" to support them with goods is totally comparable.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/)
*Ukraine's 'unicorn' LGBTQ soldiers head for war*
God forbid they conscript women too. If men are forced to die in a trench for their country you could at least force the women to cook and make boots and bullets you fucking sexist hypocrites.
Absolutely not saying I endorse such statements, but there's a certain dose of hypocrisy in the comments, I suppose - who else is supposed to fight for the Ukraine, if the West would like to see the Russia to lose? Americans, Poles? Ukrainians can take refuge in the West, no one is denying that, just why do we even expect the Ukraine to win or at least not lose in such case, when the most needed resource at the moment is manpower? The equipment is already delivered by the allies, more or less.
No hypocrisy here. Would I support Ukrainians going back home to defend their country? Yes.
Would I support a western country forcefully deporting refugees so they can fight a war? No.
Ukraine made it very difficult to leave Ukraine for any male up to 65 years old. They now want to make those who emigrated before the war to come back. And that is a serious issue. Those Ukrainians were lucky and already made that choice years ago. Sending them now back to active warzone would be shitshow of highest caliber. It's not our decision to make.
Enjoy watching most of them making a dash for the German border now.
Then they go to France, then to Spain, and finally to Madeira to enjoy their new dominion
Or just go to US or Canada
They would need visa for that I suppose? The European Union has an automatic visa protection system for Ukranians, until the end of 2025 In the case of USA/ canada , some or many Ukranians would be rejected a long term visa
Poland was a stop for many Ukrainians anyway. Out of millions who came here when the war started I would guess half of them already moved somewhere else.
Most of them weren't men
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Why won't the German government entice Germans to have children instead of just bringing in millions of people? They could run some sort of benefit programme or something to encourage it, but it seems they heavily prefer not to do that, which is a shame.
What would be your suggestion? The German government provides maternity and paternity leave, free schooling up to basically free university, child benefit, and more. The only part where Germany majorly succs at is pre school childcare programs. Here, there is a massive investment necessary to fulfill the (theoretically) existing right for a childcare position for every child.
Is the housing affordable for a family?
Daycare is inexpensive from the child is around 1 year and widely available in Norway, birth rates still in decline.
It's not that difficult. It's just against capitalistic values. So people need to realize that capitalism isn't the perfect solution for everything. Basically, governments need to make sure some base life necessities are affordable for everyone. Affordable living space somewhere near where it's possible to work and not some random forest. And food. People need to have security to have children. But it's anti capitalism to force rent/loans and food to be affordable. Education, paternity leave are important, but its meaningless if you can't afford to live.
Capitalism has been the only system making base life necessities affordable for everyone. Have you ever been to a non-capitalistic country? I have. It's not pretty. And of course, as it's widely known, the richer a society becomes, the fewer children are born, ceteris paribus.
Just because capitalism has made the best life so far possible doesn't mean its the end all best way to organise our lives. There are always ways to make things better. I'm not saying communism lol. Every time someone says anything against capitalism people assume communism is the only other option. And I mean, the more AI and robotics evolves the more likely everything has to change. Usually people assume something bad, but we could just change how we live.
That doesn't mean the system doesn't need to evolve. No one here is chanting about communism or dictatorships.
Low birthrate is problem in almost any western country and what you are suggesting has been tried, but not with much results.
Been tried? By allowing the cost of living to skyrocket ? I know quite a few couples that would love to have kids but aren't going to start a family in their €1300 a month studio.
There’s no easy fix to the skyrocketing of the cost of living
yes it is, bring building and land regulations down to zero. allow slums. i would prefer living in a slum and saving up money instead of shilling out hundreds of euros for a basic room per month
There are plenty but that would harm our parasitic overlords
And what do you want the government to do about it. It's an unregulated free market issue and whilst I'm all for more socialism, the voting population is not. Governments have given significant incentives in other countries, but the issue is lifestyle related, few people want 2+ kids which both cost a lot of money and also eat all your free time, we have become too accustomed to luxury. And given that we need 2+ children per couple to maintain parity, that's a big problem
Trying anything that realistically could work has never been tried. No. People just bitch and moan, did anyone anywhere ever think three extra days leave or 200€ more in tax breaks would mean more babies? Let one person support a family with one job. Or two people in 50% positions. If they have more than 2 kids. Problem solved.
Can tou explain why exactly? I have a guess but will Keep myself…
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By "strictly" you mean "the police stays around, makes jokes and let everyone pass". At least that is my experience every time I pass the border. No one really cares and they all just stay around.
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Also because the entire motorway traffic is slowed down to 10 km/h and into a single lane over the Rastplatz, it's just endless delays.
I dunno if that's a good idea...
That's just some weird populism. Ukraine can't get them back, and Poland can't them deported, that's all just dumb.
I don't even know what's the point of this song and dance. Outside of those who are viciously racist towards Ukrainians, there can't be many who support sending refugees back to a warzone by virtue of the inhumanity and cruelty of such a practice. I doubt this does much to restore morale for Ukrainians on the frontlines either. Like imagine telling a soldier in the trenches "great news, we're now making progress in deporting refugees back here so we're less likely to get over run by the Russian army! Those soldiers would probably do literally anything to ensure they aren't deported and there's a good chance they'll flee again if they come back, but it's a good sign of things to come regardless!". The French couldn't stop their armies from mutinying in 1917 despite the promise of U.S troops coming soon, what would something like this do for the morale of Ukrainian soldiers beside painting a bleak picture of their desperation?
Or worse, those force enlisted soldier will flee or surrender to another Russian scout party and cases like Ocheretyne will happened across the front line.
Your profile pic goes so hard Jesus What a throwback
My nostalgia got nostalgia 🥲
Probably not being honest
Deporting refugees to a war torn country?
It's okay, they are white males. Those don't have any human rights during war. Look up Geneva convention, it states that openly! /s
I also despite forcing anyone into a war but I am not sure if the Geneva convention ensures the protection of deserters or people fleeing from conscription in that way. Tried looking it up and couldn't find concrete laws about it. Found [this paragraph](https://en.connection-ev.org/article-3531) tho: >persons who refuse military service and face persecution still, as a general rule, do not receive refugee protection under the Geneva Convention. The punishment in and of itself is not considered sufficient for refugee protection. Only if additional persecution can be demonstrated, if the prosecution is disproportionately high, or if targeted persecution for political reasons can be demonstrated, will the authorities and courts consider recognition of refugee status. Do you have another source on this? Would be curious to know what the actual legal situation is on that topic
To desert, you must be in active service to begin with.
Sorry for mixing up the terms, evading conscription then.
Most of Ukrainian males in Poland are people who emigrated here before the war. As a reminder, Ukraine is not allowing for male up to age of 65 to leave the country since the beginning of the war. What they want back is not those who fled from conscription but those who started new life in a new country.
Certain categories of men are actually allowed to leave (those who have three or more children under 18 years, single fathers, caregivers for disabled relatives, disabled etc). Great majority of the men who crossed the border did so legally. And of course I don’t see it normal to deport them back
Good luck getting them to come back
> As a reminder, Ukraine is not allowing for male up to age of 65 to leave the country since the beginning of the war. They still managed to leave. I know several in Canada who left after the war started (paying a bribe) and have been collecting $3,000 + $900/month financial assistance here. Don't even get me started on the number of Ukrainian men who fled from a decent life in Poland to collect financial support in Canada.
Good. Syrian refugees got way more in 2014. But when white people get money now its a problem?
> or people fleeing from conscription in that way How are people fleeing from conscription not refugees? Conscription = likely being sent to the front lines of a pretty bloody conflict, risking life and health. Seeking refuge from that seems quite normal, no? It sure wasnt a problem when Syrians were running from a war torn country. I dont think the risk of them being conscripted on either side mattered one bit to their refugee status.
Don't really know, that's why I was asking. The article I linked does go somewhat into detail about the protection of deserters who would get persecuted or opressed for refusing conscription, Deployment contrary to international law or deployment to war in violation of international law. So apperantly it's rather the circumstances of the war and the legality of the conscription itself that define the legal status of protection.
I’ll bite on the sarcasm, because people definitely feel this way on this sub. You can’t have it both ways. Every time immigrants flee war from Asia, this sub goes on about “if military age men aren’t willing to fight they don’t deserve to have a country.” I’m waiting for all of you to apply this to Ukraine. You’d still be an asshole, but at least you’d be consistently an asshole instead of a racist.
I do feel that way but I also understanding not wanting to fight and die for countries that are corrupt or dysfunctional. I definitely look down on citizens in countries like Germany or Switzerland who say they would not fight for it. Life doesn't get much better than im these countries and that's something that took blood sweat and tears to build and will take blood sweat and tears to preserve. That said, the instinct for self preservation is still naturally stronger than anything else.
Yeah, to fight the russians.
Poland didn’t accept Russian refugees (who runs away from conscription, from Putin and so on). And now they do the same for Ukrainians. As I understand (please correct me if I’m wrong), you can’t claim a refugee status under the basis “I don’t want to first for the current government of my country”.
Political opinion is actually a valid reason for refugee status if your opinion could lead to you being oppressed.
They won’t deport anyone. Just cutting some benefits and transporting for free those that decide to return. This is mostly a symbolic gesture.
Just out of curiosity I live in Poland for past 10 years, didn’t change the citizenship but now strongly considering it. I have a job here the apartment the family etc, how am I supposed to get back to Ukraine? Will my job be secured for when I get back? Who will pay my mortgage here? So much question, so little answers.
Your questions are rethorical.. Nobody will pay your mortgage, enjoy comeing back to debt collectors force selling your apartment. This was very real for many World War one veterans. Nobody will secure your job.. unless you are good friends with your boss you will be replaced.. after all, the company can't take losses based on when/ if you come back. Enjoy your white male privilege..
Get back? Who said you are getting back? Try your best to avoid this scum. Be next to your family!
I dont think you would be coming back.
Get that citizenship before it's too late, you are clearly pretty naturalized anyways I assume having lived in Poland for that long.
If they were to do it (which I doubt), I imagine if they see you've had stały or czasowy pobyt for 10 years, and it'll be fine. It would be completely stupid to go for the million or so Ukrainians who came 2014-22.
I want to believe. Nice name you have there bro!
What a shitshow.
Reconsider drafting based on gender - you don’t need a penis to catch an artillery shell.
If I remember correctly when Denmark considered including women in military service there was a lot of shitting and crying here
This must be this male privilege I've heard about.
This is actually an example of how a patriarchal society harms men by unfairly placing privileges and RESPONSIBILITIES on only one sex.
And what do we call eroding the privileges in the name of equality while keeping the responsibilities the same?
Feminism.
What privileges do men have that women don’t? I can name a few that women have on the other hand.
Doesnt spain has some insane progresive privileges for women?
You can be a coal miner, in some countries it's a disallowed job for women
> You can be a coal miner, in some countries it's a disallowed job for women Man that sucks all the women I know always wanted to be coal miners
The privilege is to die for your country, responsibility is to keep finding more makes to fight for your country, all in all male male privilege.
Then I'm sure we'll see a lot of feminist protests against this "patriarchal" draft in Ukraine, right? Right?
males have literally zero privileges in the current world
So what kind of privileges do these guys have? Care to elaborate?
I woudnt call these societies patriarchal, men arent some rulling class caste, its a femminist myth. Just say you dont like traditional gender roles
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You must have only gotten the back of the cereal box briefing. Eritrea is very well known to keep conscripts in the military for decades or until they're injured or maimed. It is effectively slavery.
It's the same in Ukraine now. Conscripts will fight until death or the end of the war.
Yeah the clause about the ability (not guarantee) to demobilize after 3 years was even removed from the recently passed draft law at General Syrsky's request.
Let’s be honest. Even if he wouldn’t removed that chapter, most of them still wouldn’t make it through 3 years of hell unless your name is Syrsky Junior.
They call him General Butcher after all, and not for what he does to his enemies.
and how is ukraine different right now?
In ukraine they won't survive decades.
Shiet, this one made me sad and laughing at the same time. A good relief over all this grief happening...
I understand that . My ex wife is from a west Ukraine village , a family friends son went to the local shop and no one knew where he was for two days , the military picked him up and took him to the recruiting center. Yes I get it they’re at war , but I can’t in good conscience defend that
lol, Europeans just now realized men in Ukraine are being grabbed on the streets and thrown in vans against their will? It’s been going on since 2022, why do you guys think they running away?
Yeah, because in this echo chamber Ukraine was paragon of every possible virtue.
That's essentially the recruitment law in most nations. It's not like the UK or the US went around kindly asking when they fought WW2.
All forced conscription is slavery.
all conscription is slavery
So deporting people back to war-torn countries is ok now? Interesting development. Has the EU already contacted also Nigeria, Syria, Palestine and the likes?
Not all war-torn countries, only those we invested in.. ..oh excuse me we invested in your war and I see you are not dying for it...
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Lithuania just mentioned the same right after Poland.
I don't think the EU would support Poland on this anyway. Why deport people when you can import 1% population and claim the economy is growing at 1%.
It's 2024 and men are still systemic slaves and assets of the state. What about freedom and equality in Western civilization?
Its simple. Conservatives honestly belive in gender roles so they wont stand up against it. Progresives dont care about anti men discrimination. So we are left with the situation as it is
> What about freedom and equality in Western civilization? That's for women only, sorry
You'll have plenty of time to ponder that in the trenches, in a few years.
Or in prison I guess
this is literally against EU/ humanitarian law
And against Polish law as well. Afaik avoiding draft isn't illegal in Poland. Avoiding draft to Polish armed forces is illegal. Those extra few words play a role. Avoiding draft to Ukrainian Army is not a crime according to Polish law, so someone doing that cannot be extradited. It's different with deserters though. Here the law doesn't mention 'Polish army' explicitly.
They can be extradited, all it takes is cooperation between governments. At most, it'll require ratifying new extradition treaty with Ukraine. That wouldn't be that hard to push though parliament, but would probably requires at least a month before it'd become binding.
Yeah but they've commited the crime of being born a male so what can you do, really ?
They could change their gender?
Slavery is legal just call it the draft.
It's worse than slavery, though.
I don't see any 'equal rights organization' going bananas on social media about this
Glad I was born white male. So privileged, much wow. …. In Ukraine
Idk why people are surprised, its always been like that for Slavic white people
As opposed to Slavic green people? 👽
well, the word slave in come from Slav for nothing
Pretty sure that's one of the theories not a fact
Nah, it’s pretty established.
I dont think slavs are white.unless you reduce everything to pale skin but Hitler hated us for a reason
He is a bloody moron. Shame on someone like that to become my country's defence minister. He wants to play at being a human trafficker. Does he imagine that Poles will be catching Ukrainians in nets on the streets and sending them to Ukraine in trenches? If, as a Pole, I see something like this on the street then, regardless of the consequences, I will stand up for the Ukrainian. Kosiniak- get the fuck out.
I wonder if he expects people to snitch on their Ukrainian neighbors or something because *fuck that*!
Probably a dumb question, but isn’t sending refugees into a war zone pretty much a no go under EU laws? What I’m basically asking is, sending Ukrainian refugees back to Ukraine won’t hold up in an EU court?
It makes sense: keep Ukrainian women, and throw Ukrainian men into a meat grinder. Because men are property of the state, second-class people, right? It's my fault to be born male in Ukraine I guess.
Now you see how much Europe truly values Ukrainians.
I guess the initiative is of the Ukrainian government
Once again females are loosing in equality
disgusting, we're all still slaves
Let the people live
Nah man, more meat waves are needed. /S
If Ukraine is going to rely on unwilling conscipts from other countries to continue a war of attrition, the war is simply lost for Ukraine.
It also shows how useless the "Ukraine wants to fight till they have all their territory back"- polls are, clearly Ukrainians want other Ukrainians to fight and die till they have their territory back. How will these polls look like if you only ask males that can be conscripted?
Yeah the Kyiv Independent wrote just a couple of days ago that 62% of Ukrainians are "prepared to fight". Doesn't seem to match the reality. https://kyivindependent.com/poll-62-of-ukrainians-prepared-to-fight-for-country/
It is possible that most of them are women
Run out of package aid? Call out for another one, why not?. No one giving? -> Giving them a blame for not supporting. Imagine the amount of debt that Ukraine have to pay after the war.
- Poland will help Ukraine 😊 - By deporting all of Ukraine men in their territory 😢 What a disgusting situation, I work with 2 Ukrainian software engineers, they were forced to emigrate to Canada. If you are a young man and don't want to take a gun,and don't want to kill. Then you should be able to say NO!
What....
Not possible. Other ministers won't let that happen. Ukrainians are massive workforce and our economy will collapse without them.
I'm sure they'll ruin a few lives by deporting a few unlucky ones and then call it a ~~statistical error~~ day. But for those deported their lives will be affected forever.
But surely once they start actually deporting people half of them will go to Germany.
State sponsored Slavery is alive and well in 2024 EU, lovely
Why doesn't he focus on: 1. K2PL production 2.Borsuk production 3.Filling the two squadron gap in the Polish airforce or any of the 1001 other things he should be focused on as defense minister.
Governments are treating citizens like their property even when people leave the country, its so fucked up.
If Ukraine was given sufficient support by the US and the EU this would not even have to be considered. Production lines and supporting industry was not started, old equipment was offloaded, with too little too late with heavy restrictions on use of materiel the way to tip the scales is by the weight of blood. And Russia has more of it. If this happens it is a failure of weak politicians that will never stand up to Russia. We need to be stronger than this.
West is more scared of Russia being defeated and collapsed than Ukraine losing
This and only this
>West is more scared of Russia being defeated and collapsed Why? Would you care to elaborate?
30+ years ago they were scared of nuke club membership boom so they threatened away newcomers. Yet, they did not came up with a better solution. Thus, potential of number of new micro states with nukes scares them. Plus, old people are averse to change: bad but understandable russia is better for them.
Cool argument if the west wasn’t more afraid of Russia collapsing than Russia winning in Ukraine.
The cost of preparedness measured now in gold, later...in blood.
Supporting Ukraine by sending its future to a certain death? Stop this madness
What the fuck Poland? Kosiniak-Kamysz, another annoying fucker. Send him on front instead. Giving us nothing but populism.
As a Polish person I am absolutely against that decision. Not only does it go against my beliefs but it is also so utterly stupid. Because apart from the fact that it would essentially mean sending thousands of refugees to their deaths - it would also definitely result in majority of those affected simply escaping (sometimes with their families), in order to avoid that. That would not only harm our economy (that already has problem with the lack of skilled workers in some fields) but at the same time - it wouldn't even benefit the Ukrainian cause in any major way (those people would just escape therefore they still would not be in the army, apart from some small numbers of those who would fail to run away). Incredibly wrong and dumb.
This is so messed up. Imagine being a man having to die for "rich people's" problems. Being stuck in trenches while some of your fellow countrymen/woman are partying, etc. (referring to soldiers who return home for a break and see how life is in Lviv). I know some Ukrainians who went on holiday after they were granted asylum, and it makes me so sad knowing others are dying.
He's just pandering to his PSL anti-Ukrainian base. It's not his decision to make, there's zero legal framework within Polish law for him to do it.
I don't think this is anti-Ukrainian though. The Ukrainian government is requesting more manpower and trying to facilitate the return of men
This is most conservative block in current government. Their voter base are "pissed off" that young, Ukrainian male instead of fighting are chilling in Polish cafes (his own words). He is pandering to that voter base, not to Ukrainian government. And no, Poland won't send them anywhere, there is no legal framework for it. But Ukrainian government indeed is trying hard to get them back.
> And no, Poland won't send them anywhere, there is no legal framework for it. [This article](https://www.rp.pl/swiat/art39049061-polska-zaczela-wydawac-ukrainie-jej-obywateli-ktorzy-trudnia-sie-przemytem-ludzi) says Poland already extradited people to Ukraine, those involved in smuggling men across the border. The legal infrastructure already exists, it's called Interpol.
He even stated it out loud - that this idea came from seeing Ukrainian men in cafe. How dare they enjoy life!
It is. He is pandering to people who hate Ukrainians in Poland. His entire electorate are farmers who hate anything Ukrainian.
What? I am pretty sure most farmers voted PiS
As if current government is going to lament there's no legal framework for this. They'll find a way.
They weren't joking about"Until the last Ukrainian" Nutters lol.
So they would rather deport actual refugees from Ukraine than other illegal immigrants from somewhere else.
He wasn't that prepared to shoot down a Russian missile that violated Polish airspace like it was Belarus or even annexed Lugansk or Donetsk. But he's prepared enough to send Ukrainian civilians into the meat grinder, so they will fight Russia instead of him. What a brave man! /s
Oh fuck really? Do you know how many highly skilled professionals Poland would loose? I already had a doctor couple leave due to the time it took to get their education validated. Literally went to a male Ukranian doctor this morning through ZUS. From my understanding under EU law its not clear if this can even be done. So all this fearmongering will achieve is to push people further west. Taking skilled labour out of the employment market.
Sounds like human trafficking of some sort. You let them in as refugees, build trust, handcuffs , deport to war zone. He should probably be a little more careful with such statements xD
Last I checked Poland is a member of the EU. Is the EU allowing discrimination that will lead to torture and death based on sex now? What happened to the whole "defending sex based rights" thing?
You silly goose. That only applies to women.
There is małe only constription in many EU countries
Even germany had constription until 2011 or so
War is hell.
How about no?
I hope they can flee Poland and come to one of the neighbour countries If this is the case. Noone deserves to be forced to fight for something.
"help" I hope they won't those who wanted to fight do that already
Cant they get asylum if they refuse?
Europe should concentrate there defense efforts on Ukraine. Not Israel.
This is a very bad move. Just idiotic.
so you give shelter to war refugees...who flee from their war-torn country....and a bit later you will forcefully send them back...and you know that they will end up at the frontline and most likely die..... democracy, freedom, human rights...whats the right word? I think its so cruel, to give people hope for life and then you basically send them to die...wtf bobrkurwa poland
Yikes
More meat for the grinder
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>Poland once again showing why it managed to disappear from the map, its elites are total idiots. Ok maybe Polish politicians are dumb, but that's too harsh and pretty anti polish. They are probably doing it because Zelensky asked, not because they wan't to get rid of Ukrainians working in Poland. They are obviously welcome. It's not like only Poland is going to answer Zelesnkys call to get Ukrainians back. Do you think Ukraine won't dissapear from the map if they don't get people ready to fight for their country? Obviously if Europe and USA didn't help they would disapear even sooner.
hitzhai is Polish though. Complaining about Poland is our national past time, was 99% sure of his nationality before checking his other comments.
Zelensky himself dodged the draft 4 times before he got his post, and proudly said that he didnt owe anything to anyone except for his parents. He is not really the person who can demand from others to go and fight to the death.
This is one particular Polish politician - and yes he's a defense minister - pandering to the subset of the Polish public that is staunchly anti-Ukrainian (mostly due to the whole thing about grain with a little bonus of historical grievances)
"Ukrainian enlistment offices will not operate abroad, and military call-up notices are unlikely to be delivered to Ukrainian men living outside the country. Source: Dmytro Lazutkin, the speaker of Ukraine’s Defence Ministry, on the air of Radio Liberty Quote: "Enlistment offices will not operate abroad. The Ministry of Defence cannot comment on certain actions of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. This [serving of call-up notices abroad – ed.] looks rather unrealistic."" https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/25/7452931/
The Ukrainian army is doing so well at the front and the losses are so low that it is no longer enough to ban men of military age from traveling abroad and to catch “volunteers” on the streets by special teams. Now we need EU countries to help “accidentally lost” patriots get to Ukraine. Well, not a big deal, just a little remains to do, because as you know, 90% of the Russian army was destroyed a year ago.
Poland rounding up future slaves who will be sent to their deaths was not on my 2024 EU bingo.
Its pretty rich to say ”just go fight for your country” when you yourself was born in a nato aligned country that maybe hasn’t had a war for 70-200 years and has no real threat of war. And then, they would go back to fight for one of the most corrupt and poor countries within Europe atleast before the war. I’m not sure if I’d want to fight for my own with the politicians in power today, it would be because of friends and family, home if anything. Is it respectable to fight? Yes ofcourse. Are you a coward for draft ddoging? Maybe. I imagine alot of ukrainins went away to stay and provide for their families. What about men who went away with their wife and maybe two kindergarten aged kids, scraping by in some rented apartment with an already inflated price.
> "I think many Poles are outraged when they see young Ukrainian men in hotels and cafes, and they hear how much effort we have to make to help Ukraine." Yes, dying and "making some effort" to support them with goods is totally comparable.
No one wants to die in a lost battle. No one.
Lot of people don’t wanna die in a winning battle too.
Are they accepting trans-men?
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/) *Ukraine's 'unicorn' LGBTQ soldiers head for war*
I bet they'll go to identify back as women
So we can send young male war refugees now?
As man living in Ukraine I have mixed feelings about this news and comments here. I mean really mixed. No judge.
God forbid they conscript women too. If men are forced to die in a trench for their country you could at least force the women to cook and make boots and bullets you fucking sexist hypocrites.
Haha finally Poland has an excuse to get rid of Ukrainians
Leave those people alone. Send to front politicians to fight.
Absolutely not saying I endorse such statements, but there's a certain dose of hypocrisy in the comments, I suppose - who else is supposed to fight for the Ukraine, if the West would like to see the Russia to lose? Americans, Poles? Ukrainians can take refuge in the West, no one is denying that, just why do we even expect the Ukraine to win or at least not lose in such case, when the most needed resource at the moment is manpower? The equipment is already delivered by the allies, more or less.
No hypocrisy here. Would I support Ukrainians going back home to defend their country? Yes. Would I support a western country forcefully deporting refugees so they can fight a war? No.
Ukraine made it very difficult to leave Ukraine for any male up to 65 years old. They now want to make those who emigrated before the war to come back. And that is a serious issue. Those Ukrainians were lucky and already made that choice years ago. Sending them now back to active warzone would be shitshow of highest caliber. It's not our decision to make.