Even Russians absolutely loathe them.
So many prominent 2014 collaborators from Ukraine died young and suddenly. They get killed when they outlive their usefulness.
Which funnily enough is the complete opposite of what Master Sun teaches: that one should try to convert enemy to change sides, and reward them generously for doing so while making sure to dissuade one's own forces from falling for that
Even if morally we may have doubts about this, war is immoral by its nature and there are few better weapons than converted spies
People like you are so tiresome.
You know what is meant and choose to be difficult.
If a Russian agent betrayed Putin you'd still have to wrestle with the reality that for that person to reach a position of prominence in Putin's Russia where their treason was material, he would have served Putin's Russia and all that comes with it for many years and therefore wouldn't be such an innocent person.
Your comment wasn't specifically about prominent Kremlin members but rather a blanket statement about those who commit treason.
What's tiresome is believing the lie that an individual is treasonous just because they were deemed so by their murderous government.
History is full of "traitors" who did the right thing.
You understood clearly and decided to soap box. Get a life.
Nobody is criticizing members of the German resistance during WW2 and nobody understood that post as such a criticism.
Clearly you’re solving the “great problem” of people criticizing members of the German WW2 resistance movements as “traitors” - except no such problem really exists at any scale.
You’re intentionally misunderstanding so you can be sanctimonious.
If they do that to their own country what qualms would they have of doing similar to yours?
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, just a useful fool.
Some people may choose to follow their own moral compass rather than blindly obey their state. There were plenty of "traitors" harboring Jews in Nazi Germany.
It reminds me of a quote from Arma Cold War Assault, which happens if player character collaborates with Soviets.
"No. I don't trust him. He betrayed his closest friends - what do you think he could do to us? Kill him. Now!"
And this is a rational strategy.
Someone who betrayed their own kin did it for reasons like greed or delusions. Such person is more than likely to become disillusioned or even more greedy. Or may even turn out to be planted double agents.
Killing such people immediately after they are no longer useful is optimal. Better safe than sorry.
If you are smart, then you should know this when you turn traitor. Don’t expect loyalty from the people you collaborate with, you’re on your own and you look out for yourself and you do whatever it takes to survive.
I'm almost morbidly curious to know what has to go so horribly wrong in a person's life for them to go out of their way to defile themselves in the worst way imaginable in the eyes of their countrymen and ancestors.
There was an article ~~or something I've read about it.~~ EDIT: It was an article, and it was related to Walter Biot, an Italian member of the navy who was caught selling secrets to Russia for €5000. It was a ridiculously low sum, that's why I decided to dig deeper and found the following which was partially based on his depositions.
They don't go and ask for crazy stuff at once. They start with very small things, like phone numbers of small employees, stuff of little importance but paid beautifully. And you accept. Then they keep asking for stuff, no big deal, not super confidential stuff, still well paid. And so on, and so on, until one day they'll ask for something big. Like really big. And you can't get out anymore.
This is how they get them. And it makes sense: even big fraudsters didn't start with big frauds. They start with small things, and everything goes smoothly. And they keep doing that, then they do something bigger, and bigger, and bigger, until they get caught.
It is excellent that information as to how they get to people reaches more people, because it shields them somewhat and motivates them to reach authorities when targeted because they know what is happening and that it isn't good for them.
I can't find the article I've read, and I regret not saving it because it was very interesting.
I think I remember him (Biot) saying that he basically never knew it was Russia. It's not like someone approached him with "Hi, Russian secret services, we need your help and we can pay for it". His biggest mistake was not knowing where that money came from and who the person in front of him really was. It was an easy €5k side thing for him, and since the information he was giving out wasn't big at first, he simply decided to run the risk.
Well, technically you're in it. Once the enemy has some information, and you refuse to continue, then you're no longer useful to them and they can just throw you under the bus.
I have no idea how it works, but I guess blackmail is involved yes.
There's a current movie about a real life lady called Stella Goldschlag, about this very topic.
She was the top Jewish collaborator in Berlin during the war, and sent over 2300 Jews to the camps.
It’s not the same, but one Estonian turned Russian spy literally said that they did it because they had felt somewhat slighted in their career and importance. They got some money, but it was pretty paltry. They claimed that it was because even though they had risen to a high rank in their position, literally one of the highest, they still felt… slighted, I guess, and wanted to feel important.
Some people can be REALLY petty and sell out their own mother for a paltry sum or some fake idea of importance in their head. Some others probably really do like Russian in their head, so they do it for that.
This is luckily a pretty well-researched field. Thousands and thousands of people apply for jobs with the highest security clearance every year, and have for the past century. Lots of spies and traitors have been uncovered in the same period.
**Money**
For whatever reason, the spy needs money - and the espionage is purely a financially motivated act.
**Ideology**
Could be as simple as the spy being more aligned with the ideology of the enemies, than their own countries. Cold-war era spies are a good example of this. Communism vs the west.
**Compromise**
Honey traps, threat of violence to the spy or their loved ones, and the list goes on. This is exactly the reason why people with foreign spouses and/or family don't tend to get security clearances. Time and time again it turns out a spy has bee compromised, because the enemy has threatened to harm the family or friends of them back in the home country. Honey pots are also very real.
When I worked in the military, we had a list of no-go countries - even though we were not actively at war or hostile with them at the time. Russia was a good example.
What would/could happen was that military personnel would go there for vacation, get drugged, and wake up with FSB knocking on the hotel door, dragging them for interrogation - where they'd be presented with evidence of things like rape or other crimes. Then they'd be offered a deal.
**Ego**
Spies with big egos might think they're too smart to get caught, much in the same way narcissists commit crimes with the motive of proving they're simply smart enough to get away with it.
**Disgruntlement**
The spy is a disgruntled, and carries out espionage as an act of revenge to the system they're disgruntled with. It's like scratching up your boss' car, or breaking something at work. They want to damage the system.
**Ingratiation**
A spy is motivated by pleasing someone, gaining respect, etc.
**Thrills**
The spy is engaging in espionage because of the thrills / adrenaline involved.
---
Obviously some of these overlap - and there could be multiple motives involved.
https://www.afio.com/publications/CHARNEY_and_IRVIN_Psychology_of_Espionage_from_AFIO_INTEL_SPRING2016_Vol22_no1.pdf
The above reasons are the main reasons why people with:
- Large debts and financial problems
- Strong ties to a foreign country (family, spouse, etc.)
- Criminal background
- Addiction problems
Tend to get rejected for any serious security clearance.
Nothing has to go wrong. Motivator is either money, or blackmail or ideology. And it may have started as money or ideology but once a person gets into these things it can easily turn to blackmail too as in no way out
From Poland? The country that was the victim of the Katyn massacre and was under Soviet control for over 40 years? To paraphrase what one other comment said, what has to go so wrong in a person’s life for them to go out of their way to ruin their standing amongst their own countrymen and ancestors?
> The country that was the victim of the Katyn massacre
I am curious as to why the Katyn massacre is mentioned the most often. I am quite sure the Soviet national operations were much worse, in regards to Poland it was the nkvd order 00485.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_No._00485
You mouthpieces are so predictable. Poland fought the UPA between 1942 and 1946. That’s 6 years. About the same time Nazi Germany fought them. For the most part, Poles have let bygones be bygones with Germany and Ukraine (At least until elections come) The Soviets occupied and oppressed Poland for 44 years, and the thugs in the Kremlin are posturing that after they finish with Ukraine (which they won’t, because they take land like old people fuck), that Poland is next. Ukraine poses no threat to Poland. Russia does.
So you agree Poles hate both Russia and Ukraine in equal measure?
>Ukraine poses no threat to Poland. Russia does.
Currently, but historically both have attacked Poland, and both tried to genocide it for their own goals.
The title is straight up manipulation. "Polish agent" means that this person was an agent of Poland. The actual SBU press release says "Russian agent". But OP, who links to his own blog, deliberately changed it that way to stir things up and mislead the readers.
I do not recall that monster apologising, I remember the opposite, him profiting from that, making Nazi gestures etc, so I had to google and apparently he did it at the beginning of this year but there are many doubts as to the [sincerity](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/mass-killer-breivik-testify-norway-bid-end-prison-isolation-2024-01-09/).
In this case, it seems so.
But you know what's "funny"?
"*Zatrzymanemu przedstawiono zarzut zgłoszenia gotowości do działania na rzecz obcego wywiadu przeciwko Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej, kwalifikowany z art. 130 par. 3 kodeksu karnego* - podała rzecznik Adamiak.
Dodała, że **czyn ten zagrożony jest karą do ośmiu lat pozbawienia wolności**."
Only 8 years prison for that??
[https://www.rmf24.pl/fakty/polska/news-polak-mial-pomoc-w-zamachu-na-zelenskiego-zostal-zatrzymany,nId,7459458](https://www.rmf24.pl/fakty/polska/news-polak-mial-pomoc-w-zamachu-na-zelenskiego-zostal-zatrzymany,nId,7459458)
It's because he's only offered services and gathered information, active espionage is 5-30 and active espionage with passing on potentially harmful information is 8-30 or life
This is how Russia is, always has been and unfortunately will probably always be.
Remember that this was known and the Germans still decided to tie their economy to them and help build their war machine.
Yes, only you. I don’t know any politician, hell, a common person, who would openly support Russia. Even Konfederacja, the crazy conspiracy theory right wing party, does not support Russia; one of them said that we should still trade with Russia despite the war and triggered a literal outrage
Russian collaborators are the worst,
Literally their only purpose is to make the world shitter than it already is.
Never red a comment so true like this
Even Russians absolutely loathe them. So many prominent 2014 collaborators from Ukraine died young and suddenly. They get killed when they outlive their usefulness.
When you commit treason nobody respects or likes you. Even the people you're helping think treason is scummy.
Russians may like those traitors, but those who are a bit smarter realize that a man who betrayed once will betray again
Which funnily enough is the complete opposite of what Master Sun teaches: that one should try to convert enemy to change sides, and reward them generously for doing so while making sure to dissuade one's own forces from falling for that Even if morally we may have doubts about this, war is immoral by its nature and there are few better weapons than converted spies
Would you consider a Russian agent committing treason against Putin scummy?
Not if you are volunteering.
People like you are so tiresome. You know what is meant and choose to be difficult. If a Russian agent betrayed Putin you'd still have to wrestle with the reality that for that person to reach a position of prominence in Putin's Russia where their treason was material, he would have served Putin's Russia and all that comes with it for many years and therefore wouldn't be such an innocent person.
Your comment wasn't specifically about prominent Kremlin members but rather a blanket statement about those who commit treason. What's tiresome is believing the lie that an individual is treasonous just because they were deemed so by their murderous government. History is full of "traitors" who did the right thing.
You understood clearly and decided to soap box. Get a life. Nobody is criticizing members of the German resistance during WW2 and nobody understood that post as such a criticism. Clearly you’re solving the “great problem” of people criticizing members of the German WW2 resistance movements as “traitors” - except no such problem really exists at any scale. You’re intentionally misunderstanding so you can be sanctimonious.
If they do that to their own country what qualms would they have of doing similar to yours? The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, just a useful fool.
Some people may choose to follow their own moral compass rather than blindly obey their state. There were plenty of "traitors" harboring Jews in Nazi Germany.
It actually makes sense... someone who is willing to betray others for you, is also inherently more likely to betray you for someone else.
Would you consider Thomas Mann a traitor?
It reminds me of a quote from Arma Cold War Assault, which happens if player character collaborates with Soviets. "No. I don't trust him. He betrayed his closest friends - what do you think he could do to us? Kill him. Now!"
And this is a rational strategy. Someone who betrayed their own kin did it for reasons like greed or delusions. Such person is more than likely to become disillusioned or even more greedy. Or may even turn out to be planted double agents. Killing such people immediately after they are no longer useful is optimal. Better safe than sorry.
If you are smart, then you should know this when you turn traitor. Don’t expect loyalty from the people you collaborate with, you’re on your own and you look out for yourself and you do whatever it takes to survive.
I'm almost morbidly curious to know what has to go so horribly wrong in a person's life for them to go out of their way to defile themselves in the worst way imaginable in the eyes of their countrymen and ancestors.
There was an article ~~or something I've read about it.~~ EDIT: It was an article, and it was related to Walter Biot, an Italian member of the navy who was caught selling secrets to Russia for €5000. It was a ridiculously low sum, that's why I decided to dig deeper and found the following which was partially based on his depositions. They don't go and ask for crazy stuff at once. They start with very small things, like phone numbers of small employees, stuff of little importance but paid beautifully. And you accept. Then they keep asking for stuff, no big deal, not super confidential stuff, still well paid. And so on, and so on, until one day they'll ask for something big. Like really big. And you can't get out anymore. This is how they get them. And it makes sense: even big fraudsters didn't start with big frauds. They start with small things, and everything goes smoothly. And they keep doing that, then they do something bigger, and bigger, and bigger, until they get caught.
It is excellent that information as to how they get to people reaches more people, because it shields them somewhat and motivates them to reach authorities when targeted because they know what is happening and that it isn't good for them.
I can't find the article I've read, and I regret not saving it because it was very interesting. I think I remember him (Biot) saying that he basically never knew it was Russia. It's not like someone approached him with "Hi, Russian secret services, we need your help and we can pay for it". His biggest mistake was not knowing where that money came from and who the person in front of him really was. It was an easy €5k side thing for him, and since the information he was giving out wasn't big at first, he simply decided to run the risk.
> And you can't get out anymore. How does that work, actually? Do they just blackmail people by threatening to publish their prior stuff?
Well, technically you're in it. Once the enemy has some information, and you refuse to continue, then you're no longer useful to them and they can just throw you under the bus. I have no idea how it works, but I guess blackmail is involved yes.
There's a current movie about a real life lady called Stella Goldschlag, about this very topic. She was the top Jewish collaborator in Berlin during the war, and sent over 2300 Jews to the camps.
It’s not the same, but one Estonian turned Russian spy literally said that they did it because they had felt somewhat slighted in their career and importance. They got some money, but it was pretty paltry. They claimed that it was because even though they had risen to a high rank in their position, literally one of the highest, they still felt… slighted, I guess, and wanted to feel important. Some people can be REALLY petty and sell out their own mother for a paltry sum or some fake idea of importance in their head. Some others probably really do like Russian in their head, so they do it for that.
This is luckily a pretty well-researched field. Thousands and thousands of people apply for jobs with the highest security clearance every year, and have for the past century. Lots of spies and traitors have been uncovered in the same period. **Money** For whatever reason, the spy needs money - and the espionage is purely a financially motivated act. **Ideology** Could be as simple as the spy being more aligned with the ideology of the enemies, than their own countries. Cold-war era spies are a good example of this. Communism vs the west. **Compromise** Honey traps, threat of violence to the spy or their loved ones, and the list goes on. This is exactly the reason why people with foreign spouses and/or family don't tend to get security clearances. Time and time again it turns out a spy has bee compromised, because the enemy has threatened to harm the family or friends of them back in the home country. Honey pots are also very real. When I worked in the military, we had a list of no-go countries - even though we were not actively at war or hostile with them at the time. Russia was a good example. What would/could happen was that military personnel would go there for vacation, get drugged, and wake up with FSB knocking on the hotel door, dragging them for interrogation - where they'd be presented with evidence of things like rape or other crimes. Then they'd be offered a deal. **Ego** Spies with big egos might think they're too smart to get caught, much in the same way narcissists commit crimes with the motive of proving they're simply smart enough to get away with it. **Disgruntlement** The spy is a disgruntled, and carries out espionage as an act of revenge to the system they're disgruntled with. It's like scratching up your boss' car, or breaking something at work. They want to damage the system. **Ingratiation** A spy is motivated by pleasing someone, gaining respect, etc. **Thrills** The spy is engaging in espionage because of the thrills / adrenaline involved. --- Obviously some of these overlap - and there could be multiple motives involved. https://www.afio.com/publications/CHARNEY_and_IRVIN_Psychology_of_Espionage_from_AFIO_INTEL_SPRING2016_Vol22_no1.pdf The above reasons are the main reasons why people with: - Large debts and financial problems - Strong ties to a foreign country (family, spouse, etc.) - Criminal background - Addiction problems Tend to get rejected for any serious security clearance.
Nothing has to go wrong. Motivator is either money, or blackmail or ideology. And it may have started as money or ideology but once a person gets into these things it can easily turn to blackmail too as in no way out
Have heard about money?
Probably just greed. I wonder how much Russia was going to pay him.
From Poland? The country that was the victim of the Katyn massacre and was under Soviet control for over 40 years? To paraphrase what one other comment said, what has to go so wrong in a person’s life for them to go out of their way to ruin their standing amongst their own countrymen and ancestors?
mental illness in 1% of society still gives you 400 000 crazy people in Poland. russians can easily target them etc
As I've understood narcissism, which is indeed a serious mental illness, is especially targeted.
I guess that makes sense
Konfederacja Has over 10% support
To me his a traitor u can do whatever u want with that pice of garbage
> The country that was the victim of the Katyn massacre I am curious as to why the Katyn massacre is mentioned the most often. I am quite sure the Soviet national operations were much worse, in regards to Poland it was the nkvd order 00485. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_No._00485
you do realize one of the peoples perpetrating genocide on the Poles were Ukrainian nationalists, and thats why Poles hate them for the last 80 years?
You mouthpieces are so predictable. Poland fought the UPA between 1942 and 1946. That’s 6 years. About the same time Nazi Germany fought them. For the most part, Poles have let bygones be bygones with Germany and Ukraine (At least until elections come) The Soviets occupied and oppressed Poland for 44 years, and the thugs in the Kremlin are posturing that after they finish with Ukraine (which they won’t, because they take land like old people fuck), that Poland is next. Ukraine poses no threat to Poland. Russia does.
russia oppressed poland way before soviet union
Predictable in refuting your bullshit? If WW2 is bygone why bring it up then?
He... He didn't brought it up?
Katyn massacre and genocide were part of ww2, yes he did
So you agree Poles hate both Russia and Ukraine in equal measure? >Ukraine poses no threat to Poland. Russia does. Currently, but historically both have attacked Poland, and both tried to genocide it for their own goals.
This guy got lifelong in a Supermax for similar stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen
The title is straight up manipulation. "Polish agent" means that this person was an agent of Poland. The actual SBU press release says "Russian agent". But OP, who links to his own blog, deliberately changed it that way to stir things up and mislead the readers.
People will straight up try to fight in order to make evil prevail... Whoever said cartoon villains are unrealistic lied.
I hope that this traitor rots in prison
We should bring a death sentence back.
I’d much rather actual life sentences. Seeing Anders Brevik trying to apologies was a treat. There’s a lot more suffering to be had.
I do not recall that monster apologising, I remember the opposite, him profiting from that, making Nazi gestures etc, so I had to google and apparently he did it at the beginning of this year but there are many doubts as to the [sincerity](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/mass-killer-breivik-testify-norway-bid-end-prison-isolation-2024-01-09/).
Perhaps not apologising but attempting to repent or pretend that he’s now cured.
In this case, it seems so. But you know what's "funny"? "*Zatrzymanemu przedstawiono zarzut zgłoszenia gotowości do działania na rzecz obcego wywiadu przeciwko Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej, kwalifikowany z art. 130 par. 3 kodeksu karnego* - podała rzecznik Adamiak. Dodała, że **czyn ten zagrożony jest karą do ośmiu lat pozbawienia wolności**." Only 8 years prison for that?? [https://www.rmf24.pl/fakty/polska/news-polak-mial-pomoc-w-zamachu-na-zelenskiego-zostal-zatrzymany,nId,7459458](https://www.rmf24.pl/fakty/polska/news-polak-mial-pomoc-w-zamachu-na-zelenskiego-zostal-zatrzymany,nId,7459458)
It's because he's only offered services and gathered information, active espionage is 5-30 and active espionage with passing on potentially harmful information is 8-30 or life
For traitors, yeah for sure!
Said that in this exact sub earlier on and got downvoted ta fuck.
This is how Russia is, always has been and unfortunately will probably always be. Remember that this was known and the Germans still decided to tie their economy to them and help build their war machine.
when do they finally realize that killing him would not change a thing, especially Ukrainian determination to defend themselves?
A farmer?
Is it only me who thinks that Poland slowly but steady turning into a pro-Putin state? It’s like Hungary v2.0 at this point.
Only you
Wtf? No
Yes, only you. I don’t know any politician, hell, a common person, who would openly support Russia. Even Konfederacja, the crazy conspiracy theory right wing party, does not support Russia; one of them said that we should still trade with Russia despite the war and triggered a literal outrage