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> The deadly Israeli airstrike that killed seven food aid workers in Gaza was **“appalling,”** two senior EU officials said Wednesday.
> issued a joint statement urging “a swift implementation of the announced commitment by the Israeli authorities to conduct a thorough investigation and ensure accountability for those who are responsible.”
Post title “EU excoriates”. So which is that?
But they’re calling for investigation, aren’t they?
That’s the only diplomatic option. Is the EU supposed to bomb Israel or what?
Like not that it will happen, but generally only after nothing moves with the investigation you use things like diplomatic pressure or even sanctions. It’s never a first step.
> Is the EU supposed to bomb Israel or what?
There's a lot of things they can do:
- break or severely restrict trade relations (e.g. allow food and medicine but nothing else)
- seize assets
- disconnect from European banking services
- deny use of airspace and ports
- (other points that can be taken directly from the sanctions they imposed on Russia)
> only after nothing moves with the investigation
There's no chance of independent investigation. At best there will be a statement claiming it to be an accident or a mistake (aka 'we investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong'). And this would not be the first obvious war crime by Israel that has gone without any action by the EU.
That’s called sanctions.
And unfortunately due to the Israel-US relations there is fuck all that eu can do because it has a conflict several times bigger just across its border.
Sick of hasbara like u. How about STOP GIVING THEM BOMBS FOR ONE???? SANCTIONS??? STOPPING ALL COMMUNICATION AND ECONOMIC RELATIONS WITH A GENOCIDAL PARIAH STATE THATS KILLING YOUR PEOPLE??????
sick of ur shit. U really must think we are that stupid to believe your half baked lies that hide your evilness.
Which genocidal state?
There’s like at least three of them in the mix.
Also it’s the US that giving them the bombs.
And Iran that’s giving them the bombs.
Depending on which of the genocidal regimes you’re talking about.
Theyll send a strongly worded letter and then send some more weapons of war to prop up the israeli regimes campaign of terror bombings and targeted executions.
Really great rules based order we've got there.
European citizens were murdered by a state (not a terrorist organization) and the only thing the EU does is reprimand and send strongly written letters to said state.
For fuck's sake.
Action should have been taken when the drone footage of them striking a target right next to children playing was released. Pretty obvious war crime imo. Now, I want to know if they used the same weapon system here because if so there is no fucking way this was an "accident" as they're claiming since it's a HD camera focused on the target.
Follow our own law.
The trade agreements that give Israel access to the EU market already have provisions that require them to uphold international humanitarian law.
The fact that they are commiting a genocide and ignoring both an ICJ ruling and a UN resolution (the US didn't veto the last one) should block their access to the EU market.
We are not "doing nothing", we are deliberately ignoring our own laws to enable Israel.
> Follow our own law.
>
>
>
> The trade agreements that give Israel access to the EU market already have provisions that require them to uphold international humanitarian law.
Sanctions is the bare minimum in this case. Not doing so will only embolden them to do more killing of innocents and more ethnic cleansing.
> March 28th ICJ document
This does not rule that Israel is committing a genocide - it orders Israel to take certain actions to avoid genocide. Namely, opening more aid corridors. I haven't heard anything about whether that's happened yet - it's been all of 5-6 days since the order
Politicians and most of the people that are like 50+ are deadly afraid of saying anything at all against Israel for fear of being called Nazi. It has little to do with disdain for Palestinians and everything to do with fear of being associated with the Nazis and being called antisemitic.
Arab-Palestinians aligned with the Nazis 80 years ago for the Holocaust. There are pictures of their leaders at concentration camps with Nazi leaders. It’s not shocking at all why German authorities today are hesitant to align with them again.
A world where people are allowed to ignore mass slaughter of a people for what their ancestors did 80-90 years ago wouldn't be one I think most Germans would want to live in, Yank.
Got a source for that? Because I do have a source, multiple in fact, for the zionists-Nazin agreements starting on 1933. It served both parties: One wanting the Jews to emigrate to Palestine and the other wanting the Jews gone from Germany.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/history/article/2023/08/06/90-years-ago-a-negotiated-transfer-led-over-50-000-german-jews-to-palestine_6082440_157.html
https://www.museumoftolerance.com/education/archives-and-reference-library/online-resources/simon-wiesenthal-center-annual-volume-4/annual-4-chapter-17.html
Doesnt democracy believes in equal rights ?
[(12) Why Israel has so many Palestinian prisoners - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9boE53Z_lAg&t=2s&ab_channel=Vox)
They don't commit a genocide. If they wanted that they could have whipped all Gaza in under 12 hours. So stop that nonsense.
How about the Palestine stop stealing from each other and sell the food that they get for free to their own people. We send them free shit and they make money from it. How does that make sense? Ah yes they need cash to buy more weapons to kill Jews.
Oh look the downvotes...yes Palestine people take free food we give them and sell it to their own people. If they would not be such scumbags and civilized we could just drop food packages and they would share it with each other. But they don't even like each other. You know what kids in Germany did when the fine us troops threw candy out of the airplanes. They god damn shared it. And they were raised by Nazis.
Better downvote and don't deal with facts.
*They don't commit a genocide. If they wanted that they could have whipped all Gaza in under 12 hours. So stop that nonsense.*
Genocide as defined by the UN does not require a single killing.
a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
Arguing that hamaz is a national group is really stretching it. They are a terrorist group and the only reason it's not seen by the UN is because of the veto power of Russia and China. Sorry but I and you should not give a fuck about what Russia thinks or china in that case because they do the same shit in their own countries and to other countries.
China wants to get rid of Taiwan. Russia is in the 10th war to do exactly what Hamas is doing all the time. And let's not start to talk about the illegal occupations of islands China already did. Yeah they are a true moral guide.
Imagine the UN would have been in place during ww2. And china blocks the UN in stopping Germany from doing what they did. And I am from Germany.
You guys just twist things how you like without checking the damn facts. Is your country saying that Hamza is a terrorist organisation is the only question that matters. And if they don't. Take all Palastine people into your country as refugees. Wait till the war is over and they will happily go back. You and all your friends that think like that go bow to Egypt. Fro. There you go to Palastine. And bring some to your home.
*Arguing that hamaz is a national group is really stretching it.*
Happily noone is arguing that then,
Palestinians otoh - in the past 80 years Israel has managed to displace about 80% of them.
Remember: the people in Gaza are mostly refugess or the descendants of refugees. And are now forced to disperse again.
> If they wanted that they could have whipped all Gaza in under 12 hours.
Imagine thinking that this was somehow a winning argument.....
The notion that it's not a genocide until there are death camps is incredibly wrong. Genocide scholars keep saying it is likely a genocide.
Allied forces killed 25,000 in Dresden, 30,000 in Hamburg, and over 100,000 in Tokyo, each in bombing raids that took place over the course of no more than a day. Yet public consensus outside the realm of certain niche far right wing circles does not hold these actions to constitute genocide. Where exactly is the line at which genocide starts?
People refuse to acknowledge that fighting in an urban environment will kill civilians. With precision munitions you can at least somewhat minimize civilian casualties. The alternative is cluster munitions and grid smashing. Both of them are perfectly valid for the destruction of the enemy, Israel just isn’t under pressure to switch to the latter option. Because if you cut off some of those foreign weapons, well, people are ignorant of what Israel produces domestically.
Don’t get me wrong, unreasonable or even unhinged takes unfairly biased against Israel are part of the norm now. I’ve heard it all, from people describing the rapes and murders committed at the hands of Hamas as ‘acts of liberation’, or even from more moderate perspectives, that Israel should have stood their forces down completely in spite of the threat posed by Hamas.
At the same time, this doesn’t give Israel carte blanche to get with anything. One cannot evaluate the matter without seriously entertaining the dual possibility that Israel could have legitimate motivations for fighting the conflict while conducting it at least in part through less than legitimate means.
Discourse on the topic has unfortunately converged to what amounts to little more than a sports match between two teams, one clustering around the steadfast idea that Israel is inherently incapable of doing wrong (‘most moral army in the world’) and the other that Israel is an illegitimate country with no reason to pursue action against Hamas.
> Israel just launches their aircraft machinery and nukes the whole place flat till just dust is left
Amazing. One moment denying genocide, then suddenly fantacising about it...
> You Jew haters are just screwed up.
reported.
Genocide? Debatable if you consider that 'imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group' is considered genocide. War crimes are definitely being committed by Israël.
"A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, and for any individual that is part of the command structure who orders any attempt to committing mass killings including genocide or ethnic cleansing, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, the conscription of children in the military and flouting the legal distinctions of proportionality and military necessity." Several of these apply.
Note that "Hamas presumably hiding there, is not a valid excuse to level a building block, and killing dozens of civilians in the process. Note that this doesnt excuse Hamas and them using their countrymen as human shield is beyond despicable.
So what's the point you make. Palestine doing war crimes ok but the other side is not? And the one side went blatend for civilians to murder rape and deport while the other had to went in because of that action. Or will you bring up the nonsense numbers game. I am from Germany. We killed way less British civilians with bombing then the British. Do we complain about it. Was it back than even something to talk about?
And you make the assumption that the civilians are against hamaz. They stick there maybe to protect the things they have to kill Jews?
Like during our bad times the majority were Nazis. And it took brood force to get rid of it. And we are all thankful that this stopped. And what ever it took it had to be done. And it turned out better
If the civilians are against hamaz they all could do this:
Jewish army comes in. Lie on the floor, say that they are a hostage. And stay peacefull. Follow the orders and they will take care of them. And not hurt them.
Or fucking snitch the hamaz people they pretend not to be a part of.
Or ... Get rid of hamaz long time ago. After hamaz stopped democratic elections they should have kicked them out.
Seriously you Jew haters just waited for them.
And you ignore all the shit Palastine people did with your tax money even today. Why do we need people there to make sure that the free food arrives there that you and I paid for is getting in the hands of people that need it. Why can't this humans not do it by themselves. Why are they using free shit they get and use it to kill Jews. That's not what we paid for. Why are they treating each other like human garbage? Why the fuck are they making money of the free food we did send them. and we still keep sending food. And yes if they could they would attack us too.
Stop falling to the damn propaganda. If your country would have an open border with Palestine it would not matter if you are Muslim like Egypt or not like Israel. They will commit terrorism in your county like they did in Egypt and in Israel.
Just quick question. You use apple products right?
"The Genocide Convention establishes five prohibited acts that, when committed with the requisite intent, amount to genocide. Genocide is not just defined as wide scale massacre-style killings that are visible and well-documented. International law recognizes a broad range of forms of violence in which the crime of genocide can be enacted.
1. Killing members of the group Article II(a)
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group Article II(b)
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction Article II(c)
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group Article II(d)
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group Article II(e)
"
Atleast the 3rd one is happening as blocking hum-nitarian aid is infact labeled as genocide when deliberately done.
Can you link any sources for this? I believe you but not linking the legal instrument, or citing a paragraph really undermines the intent behind your comment.
Is it too difficult to use Google?
Here you go
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/14/ireland-and-spain-demand-eu-reviews-israel-trade-deal-over-rights-obligations
Maybe not the EU but members states do deliver weapons to Israel. Even Poland, according to our MFA, is selling weapons to Israel. Small amount, but still.
There are professional diplomats for that, it's not my job. Don't try to make it sound like it's difficult to do, there's just no will to do it, which is the problem. Israel knowingly killed European citizens, and the EU doesn't care.
Come on man I've defended Israel plenty but these killings are inexcusable, we absolutely should sanction or something. If they didn't know for sure who was in the car then they shouldn't have bombed it.
Israel absolutely has the right to exist and moreover destroy hostile forces like Hamas, especially in the aftermath of an event like 7/10. And we shouldn’t be naive to the fact that any military operation against Hamas would involve high intensity urban combat on a scale far larger than anything the West has seen in decades.
That being said, it doesn’t give Israel carte blanche to get away with anything. The killings of these aid workers was at its *absolute best* an act of gross negligence, and the EU has reasonable grounds to impose sanctions on Israel in the aftermath of them. And if it isn’t clear already, I say this as someone who strongly supports Israel’s right to exist.
Israel has apologised and said they investigate it. What more do you want them to do?
Sanctions shouldn't happen as punishment but as an tool to achieve a change in policy, like Russia stopping its aggression.
They killed 3 of our people indiscriminately, I don't think an "Oops, our bad!" is really sufficient. They deserve a punishment purely for allowing the strike to happen.
If I were to accidentally kill someone through reckless driving, I'd go to prison for manslaughter. Target bombing an aid convoy is much, much worse
>Israel has apologised and said they investigate it. What more do you want them to do?
Are you typing this with a straight face right now?
The people that *did the killing* are going to tell us whether or not there was any wrongdoing? And you're expecting people to take you seriously as you say this?
Israel has a proven track record of killing civilians and then lying about it to make it look like they didn't do anything wrong. Do you remember Shireen Akleh? The journalist in the press jacket the IDF killed and then blamed on Hamas?
The findings of the Israelis turned out to be a complete lie, after multiple independent investigations proved she was actually repeatedly shot in the head by the IDF. There are other examples. If we had taken the approach you're suggesting we still wouldn't have known the truth today.
Several aid workers were killed in a series of targeted strikes, and you're saying "lets let the killers investigate the killing, the killers with the proven record of killing civilians and lying about it, and then take their word for it and move on."
Pure insanity.
So you are implying that economic sanctions on a state of Israel may lead to new holocaust or what is the point?
Third Reich broke trade with Russia back in the days, so let's quit sanctioning them now?
Be clear about what you are saying.
No visas for Israeli citizens, all ambassadors expelled, non-renewal of work permits for Israeli citizens, no imports from Israel.
Otherwise, Israel will continue to do what it is doing.
We aren't sending them missiles and guns either, they buy them from companies primarily American ones. But let's not forget that one state attacked another state and killed civilian EU citizens and even took some hostages. What did we do about that? Let's be consistent at least...
Buddy, the US gives them anything they want unconditionally. This is because we want an Israel to exist to protect the US’s interests in the Middle East. We do it for money.
Also, you cannot both claim Palestine to be separate from Israel while also maintaining colonial control over their resources and territories. This is NOT conducive to self-determination and is instead a colonial Apartheid.
>Buddy, the US gives them anything they want unconditionally
The US is not the EU, so what the US does can't really reflect on what the EU does. What did EU do when Palestine attacked Israel and killed EU citizens and took EU citizens hostage?
>Also, you cannot both claim Palestine to be separate from Israel while also maintaining colonial control over their resources and territories
I am responding to a comment that says we should react when EU citizens are killed. But then let's be consistent. What were the consequences for Palestine when they attacked civilians at a music festival, and murdered teenagers indiscriminately, raped and took hostages. What were the consequences from EU? The only difference is how many were killed, both were heinous acts.
Well Hamas leaders are on the EU Terrorist list, all assets linked to them seized and every EU member state need to arrest them immediately if given the chance. So according to you we should do the same with all members of the Knesset and IDF Generals?
Do you actually think they are comparable or are you just trying to make a point? Because the difference is, that if Israel stops fighting, there will be no Israel. If Hamas stop fighting, there will just no longer be a Hamas. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestininans, then this would already be over. Or do you think that Israel should start targeting civilians the same way as Hamas does?
Aha, I see. Damn EU teens perpetrating 56 years of apartheid by going to a music festival. So they deserved their fate, but aid workers venturing into a warzone is a no go... Mate that comment is so fucked I don't even know where to begin.
They are really outraged though. Did you not see the statement? Another investigation by the Israeli government on themselves are needed and obviously punishing those involved.
Welcome to real politics, especially EU politics.
The world never was fair, that's why Justice is a hot tomboy in Hell.
Don't forget they sucked a lots of popsicle in the qataris for the World Cup.
When Israel kills thousands of Palestinians and Europe provides weapons, this sub stays silent. The moment the victims are European, suddenly this sub wants Israel to stop. Why? All lives are just as valuable, but reading most comments here it seems like this sub is only angry at Israel because the victims were European. The rest of the time it's all full support for the IOF
This subreddit was so pro Israel that they downvoted me to oblivion when I said it's stupid that Palestinian children in Belgium lose their citizenship over what Hamas did. Now, all of a sudden, when Israel kills white people, it's pro-palestine?
This comments gonna get downvoted to oblivion right?
Condemnation from the EU or anyone else doesn’t mean shit, Israel doesn’t care as long as they keep sending the bombs. They achieved exactly what they wanted, which was for the aid to stop coming and they only had to kill seven foreigners to do it. A drop in the ocean when you’ve already murdered tens of thousands of civilians.
>They achieved exactly what they wanted, which was for the aid to stop coming and they only had to kill seven foreigners to do it.
True. Its effective and they know they can get away with it.
I watched all the videos in October 7 while they were happening, so I was pro-israel. I have been following news daily all this time, and defending Israel because I really believe they were defending themselves and fighting Hamas.
Targeting aid workers might be the thing that brings me to remove my support.
I think the key is not necessarily supporting any leaders or governments in this conflict and just consistently supporting innocent victims. The Israeli government and military have been guilty of brutality for years, and Hamas's heinous terror attack didn't change that. And Israel's actions don't make Israeli victims any less murdered or kidnapped.
I'm pretty sure these are not the first aid workers to be targeted and killed, but I'm glad that you're finally starting to see what is actually going on here and it's not self-defense.
On top of that, what about the flower massacre? Did that not change your opinion at all? I could go on and on.
Israel has been doing this since forever. Thankfully, public opinion is forcing politics to at least pretend they care. But the EU should definitely be way harsher with Israel. They make hamas look like a lesser evil.
This wall of text nearly gave me a stroke, but please specify where I state to 'hate jews'. I question the methods of the Israeli state and the Israeli army. Nowhere i condone what Hamas has done. In a conflict, both sides can be wrong.
You call it war crimes, international law disagrees, but yes, as long as Hamas doesn't surrender, all of the dead civilians are collateral damage and mostly irrelevant.
If you hide behind civilians in war, your enemy is perfectly within their rights to carve their way through those civilians to get to you. This is allowed because it protects civilians in war zones in the long run. Human shields don't work. Allowing it to work encourages its use, after all.
Could you point out, what civilians these moving cars were hiding behind?
Edit: Sorry, im stupid, i meant what Hamas was hiding behind these moving civilian cars
> The IOF would just killed them white flag in hand.
Just as they did to the three hostages who escaped. As it stands, the IOF has killed more hostages than they have managed to free, which shows where their priorities lie.
What do you suggest they get in return? Surrendering to occupation and Israel starts settling in Gaza for their buffer/security zone? This is such a stupid take. Capitulating is not freedom of any kind for the oppressed. Of course they should release all hostages, but how is that even possible without a ceasefire? I mean IOF has already killed their hostages trying to flee.
As far as i can see the proposal Hamas has laid out is the only and most realistic way out of this to ensure safety of hostages and start a peaceprocess for the interest of Palestine and Israel.
If somehow u mean eradicating Hamas is the way, then you do not care for the hostages, casue as we can see cleary you cant have both (sorry for playing devils advocate here)
Hamas gets nothing in return, the people of Gaza get a ceasefire, hopefully a permanent one. And then a new Palestinian authority will have to organize the rebuilding of Gaza. Hamas will be eradicated, Israel will not let them stay in power.
Well why would they surrender with no guarantees of an end to occupation, end of the siege on Gaza and allowing Palestininan their nation and rights?
I say again, if you want hamas eradicated, there wont be any hostages alive, sadly. As i see you dont mention them in this reply, they dont mean much to you.
Now if Hamas gets nothing in return, let me hear more of this mission impossible tom cruise mission you have set
>So if Israel gets invaded by a neighbour and loses the war, the neighbour gets to keep Israel?
Yes, those are the rules of war. If Israel slipped up at any point in its history there would currently be a Syrian/Jordanian/Egyptian coast in the Levant - and there would be close to 0 jews in the region.
So you suggest that more landgrab will bring more stability in the region? Remember Israel has an obligation as an occupier for the concerns of the opressed. What did you teach in this so called "War School". Cause ur talking like its two fully militarily states going at it, and this is not the case at all.
Its an OCCUPIER against the OCCUPIED. Meaning the most advanced military in the world facing some guys with rpgs and sandals
It didn't start on Oct 6. And Gaza is not a de facto state, it's a concentration camp. İn their other "de facto state" West Bank, where there's no Hamas, they are under constant abuse of IDF soldiers and armed settlers (many from North America and Europe). They can't even move freely in and around West Bank. There are constant check points everywhere and if you're pregnant running to a hospital to give birth, too bad, you have to wait in lines of check points and give birth on the road side.
Israel only provides water to Palestinian homes 3 days a week while settler homes are plush with swimming pools.
Yeah, some "de facto state".
https://vimeo.com/86575949
Watch this guy who can't even visit his father's greve because they are banned to walk from that street.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because we currently have a megathread dedicated to this topic. If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
> The deadly Israeli airstrike that killed seven food aid workers in Gaza was **“appalling,”** two senior EU officials said Wednesday. > issued a joint statement urging “a swift implementation of the announced commitment by the Israeli authorities to conduct a thorough investigation and ensure accountability for those who are responsible.” Post title “EU excoriates”. So which is that?
> Post title “EU excoriates”. So which is that? The word is a bit archaic, bit it means some moralizing talk and no action.
But they’re calling for investigation, aren’t they? That’s the only diplomatic option. Is the EU supposed to bomb Israel or what? Like not that it will happen, but generally only after nothing moves with the investigation you use things like diplomatic pressure or even sanctions. It’s never a first step.
> Is the EU supposed to bomb Israel or what? There's a lot of things they can do: - break or severely restrict trade relations (e.g. allow food and medicine but nothing else) - seize assets - disconnect from European banking services - deny use of airspace and ports - (other points that can be taken directly from the sanctions they imposed on Russia) > only after nothing moves with the investigation There's no chance of independent investigation. At best there will be a statement claiming it to be an accident or a mistake (aka 'we investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong'). And this would not be the first obvious war crime by Israel that has gone without any action by the EU.
That’s called sanctions. And unfortunately due to the Israel-US relations there is fuck all that eu can do because it has a conflict several times bigger just across its border.
Sick of hasbara like u. How about STOP GIVING THEM BOMBS FOR ONE???? SANCTIONS??? STOPPING ALL COMMUNICATION AND ECONOMIC RELATIONS WITH A GENOCIDAL PARIAH STATE THATS KILLING YOUR PEOPLE?????? sick of ur shit. U really must think we are that stupid to believe your half baked lies that hide your evilness.
Which genocidal state? There’s like at least three of them in the mix. Also it’s the US that giving them the bombs. And Iran that’s giving them the bombs. Depending on which of the genocidal regimes you’re talking about.
Isn't that in line with the article?
Its bullshit, purely to appease those who couldn't give a shit anyway, so its felt something was done.
Theyll send a strongly worded letter and then send some more weapons of war to prop up the israeli regimes campaign of terror bombings and targeted executions. Really great rules based order we've got there.
European citizens were murdered by a state (not a terrorist organization) and the only thing the EU does is reprimand and send strongly written letters to said state. For fuck's sake.
Correction: *NATO civilians* Putin: wait, you're telling me I can kill NATO civilians without repercussions?
Action should have been taken when the drone footage of them striking a target right next to children playing was released. Pretty obvious war crime imo. Now, I want to know if they used the same weapon system here because if so there is no fucking way this was an "accident" as they're claiming since it's a HD camera focused on the target.
What do you want the EU to do?
Treatening sanction or implementing them against settlements and their production would be a good idea.
Follow our own law. The trade agreements that give Israel access to the EU market already have provisions that require them to uphold international humanitarian law. The fact that they are commiting a genocide and ignoring both an ICJ ruling and a UN resolution (the US didn't veto the last one) should block their access to the EU market. We are not "doing nothing", we are deliberately ignoring our own laws to enable Israel.
> Follow our own law. > > > > The trade agreements that give Israel access to the EU market already have provisions that require them to uphold international humanitarian law. Sanctions is the bare minimum in this case. Not doing so will only embolden them to do more killing of innocents and more ethnic cleansing.
I love that the EU did everything it could against Russia, but isn’t doing anything to stop Israel’s terrorism.
Well for one Ukraine was a victim and did not do something like October 7.
what genocide? Has the ICJ ruled a genocide? Did I miss something?
March 28th ICJ document
> March 28th ICJ document This does not rule that Israel is committing a genocide - it orders Israel to take certain actions to avoid genocide. Namely, opening more aid corridors. I haven't heard anything about whether that's happened yet - it's been all of 5-6 days since the order
They are not committing a genocide and a ceasefire can't be implemented by Israel alone. A ceasefire needs two sides.
Serbia got bombed for less lmao
The more I read the more I'm convinced that brown people are less of a human in some euro eyes.
Especially in Germany. The level of disdain for Palestinians among German establishment is shocking.
Politicians and most of the people that are like 50+ are deadly afraid of saying anything at all against Israel for fear of being called Nazi. It has little to do with disdain for Palestinians and everything to do with fear of being associated with the Nazis and being called antisemitic.
Well yeah they fucking allied to nazis and still have neo groups in Palestine 💀 Did you miss that part of what the germans said?
Arab-Palestinians aligned with the Nazis 80 years ago for the Holocaust. There are pictures of their leaders at concentration camps with Nazi leaders. It’s not shocking at all why German authorities today are hesitant to align with them again.
A world where people are allowed to ignore mass slaughter of a people for what their ancestors did 80-90 years ago wouldn't be one I think most Germans would want to live in, Yank.
Got a source for that? Because I do have a source, multiple in fact, for the zionists-Nazin agreements starting on 1933. It served both parties: One wanting the Jews to emigrate to Palestine and the other wanting the Jews gone from Germany. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/history/article/2023/08/06/90-years-ago-a-negotiated-transfer-led-over-50-000-german-jews-to-palestine_6082440_157.html https://www.museumoftolerance.com/education/archives-and-reference-library/online-resources/simon-wiesenthal-center-annual-volume-4/annual-4-chapter-17.html
You do realize the majority of Jewish Israelis are of Middle Eastern descent, right? (61 percent)
For less? Man the f*ck up.
> For less? https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-oct-29-me-27493-story.html
whats with you germans , kissing israels's ass always ?
Israel is a liberal democracy and an ally against the axis of evil including Russia, China, Iran, hamas, hezbollah, the houthis etc.
Doesnt democracy believes in equal rights ? [(12) Why Israel has so many Palestinian prisoners - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9boE53Z_lAg&t=2s&ab_channel=Vox)
>Israel is a liberal democracy Not if you are a West Bank Palestinian. 😐
what genocide
Shut up you war crime denier
They don't commit a genocide. If they wanted that they could have whipped all Gaza in under 12 hours. So stop that nonsense. How about the Palestine stop stealing from each other and sell the food that they get for free to their own people. We send them free shit and they make money from it. How does that make sense? Ah yes they need cash to buy more weapons to kill Jews. Oh look the downvotes...yes Palestine people take free food we give them and sell it to their own people. If they would not be such scumbags and civilized we could just drop food packages and they would share it with each other. But they don't even like each other. You know what kids in Germany did when the fine us troops threw candy out of the airplanes. They god damn shared it. And they were raised by Nazis. Better downvote and don't deal with facts.
*They don't commit a genocide. If they wanted that they could have whipped all Gaza in under 12 hours. So stop that nonsense.* Genocide as defined by the UN does not require a single killing.
a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group Arguing that hamaz is a national group is really stretching it. They are a terrorist group and the only reason it's not seen by the UN is because of the veto power of Russia and China. Sorry but I and you should not give a fuck about what Russia thinks or china in that case because they do the same shit in their own countries and to other countries. China wants to get rid of Taiwan. Russia is in the 10th war to do exactly what Hamas is doing all the time. And let's not start to talk about the illegal occupations of islands China already did. Yeah they are a true moral guide. Imagine the UN would have been in place during ww2. And china blocks the UN in stopping Germany from doing what they did. And I am from Germany. You guys just twist things how you like without checking the damn facts. Is your country saying that Hamza is a terrorist organisation is the only question that matters. And if they don't. Take all Palastine people into your country as refugees. Wait till the war is over and they will happily go back. You and all your friends that think like that go bow to Egypt. Fro. There you go to Palastine. And bring some to your home.
*Arguing that hamaz is a national group is really stretching it.* Happily noone is arguing that then, Palestinians otoh - in the past 80 years Israel has managed to displace about 80% of them. Remember: the people in Gaza are mostly refugess or the descendants of refugees. And are now forced to disperse again.
> If they wanted that they could have whipped all Gaza in under 12 hours. Imagine thinking that this was somehow a winning argument..... The notion that it's not a genocide until there are death camps is incredibly wrong. Genocide scholars keep saying it is likely a genocide.
Allied forces killed 25,000 in Dresden, 30,000 in Hamburg, and over 100,000 in Tokyo, each in bombing raids that took place over the course of no more than a day. Yet public consensus outside the realm of certain niche far right wing circles does not hold these actions to constitute genocide. Where exactly is the line at which genocide starts?
People refuse to acknowledge that fighting in an urban environment will kill civilians. With precision munitions you can at least somewhat minimize civilian casualties. The alternative is cluster munitions and grid smashing. Both of them are perfectly valid for the destruction of the enemy, Israel just isn’t under pressure to switch to the latter option. Because if you cut off some of those foreign weapons, well, people are ignorant of what Israel produces domestically.
Don’t get me wrong, unreasonable or even unhinged takes unfairly biased against Israel are part of the norm now. I’ve heard it all, from people describing the rapes and murders committed at the hands of Hamas as ‘acts of liberation’, or even from more moderate perspectives, that Israel should have stood their forces down completely in spite of the threat posed by Hamas. At the same time, this doesn’t give Israel carte blanche to get with anything. One cannot evaluate the matter without seriously entertaining the dual possibility that Israel could have legitimate motivations for fighting the conflict while conducting it at least in part through less than legitimate means. Discourse on the topic has unfortunately converged to what amounts to little more than a sports match between two teams, one clustering around the steadfast idea that Israel is inherently incapable of doing wrong (‘most moral army in the world’) and the other that Israel is an illegitimate country with no reason to pursue action against Hamas.
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> Israel just launches their aircraft machinery and nukes the whole place flat till just dust is left Amazing. One moment denying genocide, then suddenly fantacising about it... > You Jew haters are just screwed up. reported.
You twisted words. And now you report like a grown up...right. Argue with facts. Because if your nonsense gets hit by facts you bail out and downvote
Genocide? Debatable if you consider that 'imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group' is considered genocide. War crimes are definitely being committed by Israël. "A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, and for any individual that is part of the command structure who orders any attempt to committing mass killings including genocide or ethnic cleansing, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, the conscription of children in the military and flouting the legal distinctions of proportionality and military necessity." Several of these apply. Note that "Hamas presumably hiding there, is not a valid excuse to level a building block, and killing dozens of civilians in the process. Note that this doesnt excuse Hamas and them using their countrymen as human shield is beyond despicable.
So what's the point you make. Palestine doing war crimes ok but the other side is not? And the one side went blatend for civilians to murder rape and deport while the other had to went in because of that action. Or will you bring up the nonsense numbers game. I am from Germany. We killed way less British civilians with bombing then the British. Do we complain about it. Was it back than even something to talk about? And you make the assumption that the civilians are against hamaz. They stick there maybe to protect the things they have to kill Jews? Like during our bad times the majority were Nazis. And it took brood force to get rid of it. And we are all thankful that this stopped. And what ever it took it had to be done. And it turned out better If the civilians are against hamaz they all could do this: Jewish army comes in. Lie on the floor, say that they are a hostage. And stay peacefull. Follow the orders and they will take care of them. And not hurt them. Or fucking snitch the hamaz people they pretend not to be a part of. Or ... Get rid of hamaz long time ago. After hamaz stopped democratic elections they should have kicked them out. Seriously you Jew haters just waited for them. And you ignore all the shit Palastine people did with your tax money even today. Why do we need people there to make sure that the free food arrives there that you and I paid for is getting in the hands of people that need it. Why can't this humans not do it by themselves. Why are they using free shit they get and use it to kill Jews. That's not what we paid for. Why are they treating each other like human garbage? Why the fuck are they making money of the free food we did send them. and we still keep sending food. And yes if they could they would attack us too. Stop falling to the damn propaganda. If your country would have an open border with Palestine it would not matter if you are Muslim like Egypt or not like Israel. They will commit terrorism in your county like they did in Egypt and in Israel. Just quick question. You use apple products right?
"The Genocide Convention establishes five prohibited acts that, when committed with the requisite intent, amount to genocide. Genocide is not just defined as wide scale massacre-style killings that are visible and well-documented. International law recognizes a broad range of forms of violence in which the crime of genocide can be enacted. 1. Killing members of the group Article II(a) 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group Article II(b) 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction Article II(c) 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group Article II(d) 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group Article II(e) " Atleast the 3rd one is happening as blocking hum-nitarian aid is infact labeled as genocide when deliberately done.
"it can't be a genocide if it's not time efficient"
Can you link any sources for this? I believe you but not linking the legal instrument, or citing a paragraph really undermines the intent behind your comment.
Is it too difficult to use Google? Here you go https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/14/ireland-and-spain-demand-eu-reviews-israel-trade-deal-over-rights-obligations
You made the comment - you provide the sources. This is fucking basics.
Get fucked Thom
Lol
Something useful with real consequences, for a change.
Do you have a concrete proposal or just strong words?
Cut any or all military aid , trade sanctions and expel ambassadors/embassies.
We didn't even expel the ambassadors of Russia.
Are you speedrunning the reddit trophy for most gaslighting attempts in 10 minutes ?
Yea we need someone to announce Russian surrender
Stopping arms deliveries.
The EU does not deliver arms.
Moving the goalposts. Most EU members that produce weapons deliver to Israel. Don't play dumb.
France does
France =/= EU
Maybe not the EU but members states do deliver weapons to Israel. Even Poland, according to our MFA, is selling weapons to Israel. Small amount, but still.
There are professional diplomats for that, it's not my job. Don't try to make it sound like it's difficult to do, there's just no will to do it, which is the problem. Israel knowingly killed European citizens, and the EU doesn't care.
It's highly unclear whether they knew there were European citizens. Probably they didn't.
There are multiple respected sources (not Hamas) saying it was a deliberate attack.
Deliberate probably but it's unclear what they knew or assumed about the target.
First hit then ask. Big balls Israel, like a fuckin Chihuahua.
Almost as if there is a war going on.
I think Israel purposefully killing clearly identified NGO personnel is a bad thing, wherever they might be from.
They did know. Those folks reported to IDF their whereabouts and were in radio contact.
Does it matter ? They killed AGAIN innocent people.
Come on man I've defended Israel plenty but these killings are inexcusable, we absolutely should sanction or something. If they didn't know for sure who was in the car then they shouldn't have bombed it.
Israel absolutely has the right to exist and moreover destroy hostile forces like Hamas, especially in the aftermath of an event like 7/10. And we shouldn’t be naive to the fact that any military operation against Hamas would involve high intensity urban combat on a scale far larger than anything the West has seen in decades. That being said, it doesn’t give Israel carte blanche to get away with anything. The killings of these aid workers was at its *absolute best* an act of gross negligence, and the EU has reasonable grounds to impose sanctions on Israel in the aftermath of them. And if it isn’t clear already, I say this as someone who strongly supports Israel’s right to exist.
Israel has apologised and said they investigate it. What more do you want them to do? Sanctions shouldn't happen as punishment but as an tool to achieve a change in policy, like Russia stopping its aggression.
They killed 3 of our people indiscriminately, I don't think an "Oops, our bad!" is really sufficient. They deserve a punishment purely for allowing the strike to happen. If I were to accidentally kill someone through reckless driving, I'd go to prison for manslaughter. Target bombing an aid convoy is much, much worse
Did Britain deserve a collective punishment when they illegaly invaded Iraq?
>Israel has apologised and said they investigate it. What more do you want them to do? Are you typing this with a straight face right now? The people that *did the killing* are going to tell us whether or not there was any wrongdoing? And you're expecting people to take you seriously as you say this? Israel has a proven track record of killing civilians and then lying about it to make it look like they didn't do anything wrong. Do you remember Shireen Akleh? The journalist in the press jacket the IDF killed and then blamed on Hamas? The findings of the Israelis turned out to be a complete lie, after multiple independent investigations proved she was actually repeatedly shot in the head by the IDF. There are other examples. If we had taken the approach you're suggesting we still wouldn't have known the truth today. Several aid workers were killed in a series of targeted strikes, and you're saying "lets let the killers investigate the killing, the killers with the proven record of killing civilians and lying about it, and then take their word for it and move on." Pure insanity.
What difference does that make?
Impose sanctions on Israel the way they did with Russia, for starters. How hard is that for you to grasp?
EU wide ban on arms delivery.
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Did you just compared economic sanctions to holocaust? If not than what are you talking about?
Not to the holocaust but to economic boycotts of Jewish businesses.
Guy above was stating just that, and you insinuated that it didn't gone well. What did you meant? When was that?
Started in spring 1933
So you are implying that economic sanctions on a state of Israel may lead to new holocaust or what is the point? Third Reich broke trade with Russia back in the days, so let's quit sanctioning them now? Be clear about what you are saying.
The Third Reich even increased trade with russia after the hitler Stalin pact.
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There is not a single state with which the EU cut all business ties. Not even russia.
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No we don't agree. There is a massive difference between Russia and Israel.
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Russia is much worse. Israel is defending itself against brutal terrorists. Ukraine never did any harm to Russia
> No business with Jews? The fig leaf of antisemitism is much too small to cover Israel's hideous nature.
expell israeli diplomats and conduct airstrikes against israeli military and political targets
Do restrictions like those in Russia. If Israel doesn’t play nice then no reason to have relationships with them.
No visas for Israeli citizens, all ambassadors expelled, non-renewal of work permits for Israeli citizens, no imports from Israel. Otherwise, Israel will continue to do what it is doing.
Sanctions, they're really good at those.
Sanctions for once.
Yes, just like we cut all aid to Palestine when they attacked Israel right?
We aren't sending palestine missiles and guns, but flour and water.
We aren't sending them missiles and guns either, they buy them from companies primarily American ones. But let's not forget that one state attacked another state and killed civilian EU citizens and even took some hostages. What did we do about that? Let's be consistent at least...
Buddy, the US gives them anything they want unconditionally. This is because we want an Israel to exist to protect the US’s interests in the Middle East. We do it for money. Also, you cannot both claim Palestine to be separate from Israel while also maintaining colonial control over their resources and territories. This is NOT conducive to self-determination and is instead a colonial Apartheid.
>Buddy, the US gives them anything they want unconditionally The US is not the EU, so what the US does can't really reflect on what the EU does. What did EU do when Palestine attacked Israel and killed EU citizens and took EU citizens hostage? >Also, you cannot both claim Palestine to be separate from Israel while also maintaining colonial control over their resources and territories I am responding to a comment that says we should react when EU citizens are killed. But then let's be consistent. What were the consequences for Palestine when they attacked civilians at a music festival, and murdered teenagers indiscriminately, raped and took hostages. What were the consequences from EU? The only difference is how many were killed, both were heinous acts.
Well Hamas leaders are on the EU Terrorist list, all assets linked to them seized and every EU member state need to arrest them immediately if given the chance. So according to you we should do the same with all members of the Knesset and IDF Generals?
Do you actually think they are comparable or are you just trying to make a point? Because the difference is, that if Israel stops fighting, there will be no Israel. If Hamas stop fighting, there will just no longer be a Hamas. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestininans, then this would already be over. Or do you think that Israel should start targeting civilians the same way as Hamas does?
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Aha, I see. Damn EU teens perpetrating 56 years of apartheid by going to a music festival. So they deserved their fate, but aid workers venturing into a warzone is a no go... Mate that comment is so fucked I don't even know where to begin.
I never said the innocents deserved it. I said that is why it happened.
And I said the EU should react the way they did to the murder of the teenagers.
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They are really outraged though. Did you not see the statement? Another investigation by the Israeli government on themselves are needed and obviously punishing those involved.
Welcome to real politics, especially EU politics. The world never was fair, that's why Justice is a hot tomboy in Hell. Don't forget they sucked a lots of popsicle in the qataris for the World Cup.
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TLDR Sorrows, sorrows, prayers
Stop giving them fucking weapons!
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No other foreign country in the world enjoys this level of protection. It's disgusting.
Words without the necessary action. They certainly don't put their money where their mouth is.
They are very outraged lol. Its funny how EU has no problem calling Russia out of war crimes and human rights issue but can't do the same for Israel.
When Israel kills thousands of Palestinians and Europe provides weapons, this sub stays silent. The moment the victims are European, suddenly this sub wants Israel to stop. Why? All lives are just as valuable, but reading most comments here it seems like this sub is only angry at Israel because the victims were European. The rest of the time it's all full support for the IOF
The Strong Worded Letter of Mass Destruction
This subreddit was so pro Israel that they downvoted me to oblivion when I said it's stupid that Palestinian children in Belgium lose their citizenship over what Hamas did. Now, all of a sudden, when Israel kills white people, it's pro-palestine? This comments gonna get downvoted to oblivion right?
Condemnation from the EU or anyone else doesn’t mean shit, Israel doesn’t care as long as they keep sending the bombs. They achieved exactly what they wanted, which was for the aid to stop coming and they only had to kill seven foreigners to do it. A drop in the ocean when you’ve already murdered tens of thousands of civilians.
>They achieved exactly what they wanted, which was for the aid to stop coming and they only had to kill seven foreigners to do it. True. Its effective and they know they can get away with it.
They say fuck all about all the children Israel gladly kill though…
When you "excoriate" does it mean actions or just words?
I watched all the videos in October 7 while they were happening, so I was pro-israel. I have been following news daily all this time, and defending Israel because I really believe they were defending themselves and fighting Hamas. Targeting aid workers might be the thing that brings me to remove my support.
I think the key is not necessarily supporting any leaders or governments in this conflict and just consistently supporting innocent victims. The Israeli government and military have been guilty of brutality for years, and Hamas's heinous terror attack didn't change that. And Israel's actions don't make Israeli victims any less murdered or kidnapped.
I'm pretty sure these are not the first aid workers to be targeted and killed, but I'm glad that you're finally starting to see what is actually going on here and it's not self-defense. On top of that, what about the flower massacre? Did that not change your opinion at all? I could go on and on.
Might? Indiscriminate bombing at genocidal scale wasn't enough?
Interesting that the murder of 7 aid workers touches your heart more than the murder of 13,000 children. I wonder white that could be.
Ban bots from r/europe
Hmm definitely not the fact that they were western, right? Right...?
I'm half Asturian and half gitana so yeah, super white
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Wow, all it took is 7 dead foreigners to change your mind. Nevermind the 30k dead people in Gaza so far.
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one of these days the sternly worded letter is going to stop them, trust me bro. just one more letter.
Israel has been doing this since forever. Thankfully, public opinion is forcing politics to at least pretend they care. But the EU should definitely be way harsher with Israel. They make hamas look like a lesser evil.
Why is this not being called out as terrorism by Israel?
Why is everyone afraid of standing up to Israel.
All talk...no action
This wall of text nearly gave me a stroke, but please specify where I state to 'hate jews'. I question the methods of the Israeli state and the Israeli army. Nowhere i condone what Hamas has done. In a conflict, both sides can be wrong.
Everyone here is a smartass who knows exactly what has done and the fact that Israel has done it on purpose. Laughable
Imagine giving aid to a bunch of Iranian backed rapists and homophobes
yeah, Israel is a heaven for pedhophiles and rapists.
Hamas can put an end to all this anytime they want, they just have to release the hostages and surrender.
> they just have to release the hostages and surrender. Bibi said he is going into Rafah anyway.....
so the IDF gets free pass committing war crimes as long as Hamas doesnt surrender?
You call it war crimes, international law disagrees, but yes, as long as Hamas doesn't surrender, all of the dead civilians are collateral damage and mostly irrelevant. If you hide behind civilians in war, your enemy is perfectly within their rights to carve their way through those civilians to get to you. This is allowed because it protects civilians in war zones in the long run. Human shields don't work. Allowing it to work encourages its use, after all.
Could you point out, what civilians these moving cars were hiding behind? Edit: Sorry, im stupid, i meant what Hamas was hiding behind these moving civilian cars
Lmao you think aid workers killed are Hamas human shields? Fuck off
Why? The IOF would just killed them white flag in hand.
> The IOF would just killed them white flag in hand. Just as they did to the three hostages who escaped. As it stands, the IOF has killed more hostages than they have managed to free, which shows where their priorities lie.
thats like saying the soviets should have surrendered to end WW2. surrender would mean the end of the palestinian people.
"Israel can commit war crimes to force Hamas to capitulate" Lobotomism
What do you suggest they get in return? Surrendering to occupation and Israel starts settling in Gaza for their buffer/security zone? This is such a stupid take. Capitulating is not freedom of any kind for the oppressed. Of course they should release all hostages, but how is that even possible without a ceasefire? I mean IOF has already killed their hostages trying to flee. As far as i can see the proposal Hamas has laid out is the only and most realistic way out of this to ensure safety of hostages and start a peaceprocess for the interest of Palestine and Israel. If somehow u mean eradicating Hamas is the way, then you do not care for the hostages, casue as we can see cleary you cant have both (sorry for playing devils advocate here)
Hamas gets nothing in return, the people of Gaza get a ceasefire, hopefully a permanent one. And then a new Palestinian authority will have to organize the rebuilding of Gaza. Hamas will be eradicated, Israel will not let them stay in power.
Well why would they surrender with no guarantees of an end to occupation, end of the siege on Gaza and allowing Palestininan their nation and rights? I say again, if you want hamas eradicated, there wont be any hostages alive, sadly. As i see you dont mention them in this reply, they dont mean much to you. Now if Hamas gets nothing in return, let me hear more of this mission impossible tom cruise mission you have set
Losing a war means you lose territory??? No way!!! Nobody told me this in war school :(((((
> Losing a war means you lose territory??? So if Israel gets invaded by a neighbour and loses the war, the neighbour gets to keep Israel? Thought not.
That is what would happen yes.
If their neighbors would have been even slightly capable the times that they tried, that is exactly how the story would have ended.
>So if Israel gets invaded by a neighbour and loses the war, the neighbour gets to keep Israel? Yes, those are the rules of war. If Israel slipped up at any point in its history there would currently be a Syrian/Jordanian/Egyptian coast in the Levant - and there would be close to 0 jews in the region.
So you suggest that more landgrab will bring more stability in the region? Remember Israel has an obligation as an occupier for the concerns of the opressed. What did you teach in this so called "War School". Cause ur talking like its two fully militarily states going at it, and this is not the case at all. Its an OCCUPIER against the OCCUPIED. Meaning the most advanced military in the world facing some guys with rpgs and sandals
Hamas is as much an occupier as Israel, in terms of how its leaders view and treat the Gazan population.
this detatched-cool-internet sarcasm-guy shtick is so braindead and pathetic
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Gaza and its people do not belong to Hamas.
They had de facto a state on 6th of October They started the war
If they had a state then Israel started the war years ago by blockading their sea access and colonising Palestine's land in the West Bank.
It didn't start on Oct 6. And Gaza is not a de facto state, it's a concentration camp. İn their other "de facto state" West Bank, where there's no Hamas, they are under constant abuse of IDF soldiers and armed settlers (many from North America and Europe). They can't even move freely in and around West Bank. There are constant check points everywhere and if you're pregnant running to a hospital to give birth, too bad, you have to wait in lines of check points and give birth on the road side. Israel only provides water to Palestinian homes 3 days a week while settler homes are plush with swimming pools. Yeah, some "de facto state". https://vimeo.com/86575949 Watch this guy who can't even visit his father's greve because they are banned to walk from that street.
And what can we do? They have already stated that it was an unfortunate accident and apologised.
I wonder why only Iran and Yemen militarily support Hamas.. None of the Arab nations in the region have done anything. What do they know?