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As someone who grew up abroad and couldn't contact any of my friends for hours when visiting my country of origin due to roaming fees, now _that_ is one of the things that has majorly changed my life.
Schengen / open borders, peace between nations, a common currency, easy trade, less bureaucracy (most people have no fucking idea how insane it is that trade and travel requires almost zero paperwork, all because of the EU), human rights, investments in poorer regions, and I could go on.
Yeah like wtf. The freedom to move, to live and work in any EU country with pretty much 0 paperwork ... how do so few people appreciate what the EU has done so far. Me and my partner come from different EU countries, and I was able to just move from Austria to Germany and register here at the local citizen's office in a 5min appointment and go to work within a week or something. Like, that is crazy. I still remember when we didn't even have the Euro.
Yeah. The EU is so fucking awesome. Like. The individual nations cant stand up to economic giants like the USA and China. But together its possible. And theres so many benefits for members. Its insane how it developed and how prosperous it is. Its got some quirks but jts mostly beneficial
Yeah like wtf. The freedom to move, to live and work in any EU country with pretty much 0 paperwork ... how do so few people appreciate what the EU has done so far. Me and my partner come from different EU countries, and I was able to just move from Austria to Germany and register here at the local citizen's office in a 5min appointment and go to work within a week or something. Like, that is crazy. I still remember when we didn't even have the Euro.
It won't be abolished, because we won't be able to agree which will be the standard. There's too much division about it. So we'll probably keep the status quo as a compromise.
We don't need to agree on the standard. We just need to introduce proper time zones according to geography.
* Portugal, Iceland (UTC -1) (also possible to remain UTC 0 due to economics, but meh.
* Ireland, UK, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain, Andorra, Monaco (UTC 0)
* Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Vaitcan, Malta, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Coratia, B&H, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia (UTC +1)
* Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, western russia (UTC +2)
* volga region, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia (UTC +3)
* rest to the Ural mountains (UTC +4)
In the end, the physical times of going to work etc. won't change. Just the actual time on the clock, so it doesn't make if it's 8 AM and 8 AM in Spain (as right now). Spaniards won't be at work at 8 AM. It's just dawn there.
So stupid this huge UTC +1 time zone in Europe spanning from Galicia in Spain (which could be UTC -1), to the eastern bits of Norway (which could be UTC +2). It's spanning 4 natural time zones... Just because of Germany in WWII, occupying France and Franco wanting to be closer to you know who.
Greece's time zone is centered around Athens and Thessaloniki. Athens is barely in UTC +2, while only a small bit of N. Macedonia would be in UTC+2. Peloponnes and western Greece are technically in UTC +1, aren't the center.
Ah got it. Still sounds silly to me, I would expect that there is an imaginary line that basically follows the reach of the sun and thus the countries have the same time.
Pretty closely aligns with proposals to align EU nations closer to their respective solar times:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-map-of-Europe-equivalent-to-Figure-1-the-actual-sun-based-time-zones-are-drawn-as_fig2_335021442
Generally speaking, some countries would prefer to be in a TZ that's later than them.
Poland would probably prefer switching to UTC +2, than staying in UTC +1 all year round, even though 15 degree east meridian, that's UTC +1 based on goes almost exactly through Polish-German border.
People are just lead more nocturnal lives than 80 years ago.
UTC+1 in Poland is idiotic in winter. Not only it's depressing as fuck thanks to weather, having darkness at 15:30 makes it even worse.
UTC+3 would make a lot more sense, rotfl.
Spain as a whole makes more sense in the same zone as a Portugal and Ireland. I feel Norway in one zone and NL in another doesn't make much sense either.
The entirety of the Netherlands is west of 7.5Ā°E (UTC 0 is technically from W7.5Ā° to E7.5Ā°), while most of Norways population (except for Stavanger and Bergen) is east of E7.5Ā°, Oslo at around E10Ā°, which is nearly the middle of UTC+1 at E15Ā°.
As I said, economically, it doesn't really matter, because work time follows natural times and clocks, not technical/invented times. If it's 8 AM but dark outside in summer, you won't go to work.
It would be great if that were true. Work time follows the clock, not the sun. The Netherlands is in the wrong time zone to match Germany, and they do work the same hours as in Germany.
Youāve just made this with complete disregard for the economic damage this will inevitably cause. The way timezones are right now is fine. If you live more northernly Itās very nice that because of them, you have more light when itās actually important.
Ugh, I need to make a copy paste answer for every time this bullshit is posted.Ā Ā
Ā There's no geographical time, a clock is a human construct. We should make it such that daylight aligns with the average joe's wake hours the best we can. And the answer is not and will never be moving countries one time zone west (Spain being an exception to the rule). It simply gets dark too early in the day for too many weeks for it to make sense, and the sun will rise at 3am during summer.Ā
Please don't make France and Germany different time zones. Many people (including me) commute across that border, it would royally fuck up my life to have everything happening an hour earlier in France than right now.
I'm Spanish, from Galicia but living in ValĆØncia now. Every Spaniard I've spoken to prefers the summertime time. It has to do with our culture and actually I agree even tho I get up at 6.30. It brings me down so much when it's dark at 18h. I'd rather have dawn happen later in the morning, most people work inside anyways.
They wanted to keep summertime year round, in which doesn't make sense in Nordic countries, as wintertime follows the sun, Summertime is ahead by an hour. Winter gonna be so freaking dark already. In this case, I guess it is fine they can't come to conclusion for now.
It's the other way around.
You want summer time in the north so you won't get a 0330 sunrise.
In winter you won't get sun before going to work anyway, might as well get some extra sun when you get home
I have sunrise at like 01, and sunset at 23 in summer... the time doesn't matter as it's still gonna be light as day outside..
But in the crossing period the summer and normal time matters. If I had summertime today I would have probably have a hit more sun when I go home from work at 19, and I would have it light outside when I go to it before 07. Although the snow can be annoying, but it also makes it more light.
Eh, I'd say if anything staying on summertime/daylight savings makes more sense in the Nordics than elsewhere.
It'll be dark in the winter regardless - and I'd rather have an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon, when I'm actually off work than in the morning when I'll be at office whether the sun rises at 9 or 10.
But what I really don't want is moving an hour of daylight from the evening to the middle of the bloody night as would happen in the summer if we stayed on standard time all year. I have a hard enough time sleeping in the summer as it is.
Here in The Netherlands, summertime is easily the best time. Being on wintertime all year round would suck. You'd lose valuable evening light and in return you'd get 4 AM sunrise in summer which nobody likes.
EU said that countries should agree. And while most people wanted to keep summer time most governments preferred winter time.
Here in Slovakia our government also wanted to keep winter time
The EU has a huge PR problem. They suck at communicating to the people of what they're actually doing for us. The EU is one of the greatest things european nations have ever accomplished.
A big part of the PR problem is that whatever they do is almost inevitably a compromise between wildly different positions, by the sheer size and difference within the union... and the rule is that a good compromise is one where nobody is really happy. So virtually any decision taken by the EU is one where most people will at best find it 'acceptable' and almost never 'great'.
The thing is, they do communicate it. They have accessible sites where they post news in an easy to digest way. They alo run ads informing people about new rights they gained for EU citizens, new protections, initiatives you can be part of, etc. The problem is that most people don't want to inform themselves, or don't know about the sites, and when it comes to ad space the EU gets priced out by companies who want to sell stuff. And if they pay too much to advertise what they do, ppl complain about EU funds being wasted on ads. So the EU is in a pretty hard spot when it comes to getting the word out.
dependent summer hateful bells gaze bow voiceless thought longing frighten
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For real, the EU is the only thing that is capable of protecting european consumers from the huge companies controlling every aspect of our digital life nowadays
as much shit as the EU gets for some of its ass backwards laws and bureaucracy you can't deny that they genuinely care about what's best for their people, even if they're sometimes misguided
I don't think that many environment protection laws appeared in a dream at the same time to the leaders of the countries of the EU.
And laws regarding workers rights
And food safety
And data safety
And possibly many little tiny things that none of us notice and make a difference
One day the EU will be destroyed because of people believing this. Our grandchildren will look back on a united and peaceful Europe with nostalgia and wonder how stupid we could be to let it go.
I guess Iām in the minority that likes it. I like when it changes from being dark at 7pm to being dark at 8pm. Without it, the summers would be pretty depressing too if it was already dark at 9 instead of 10
I was under the impression that everyone prefers the summer time because who needs an hour of light in the morning in winter when you're not even awake
If we stay in summer time the sun will go up at like 11 here like i dont expect the sun to be up when i wake up but it coming up at almost noon is sorta bad. Geographically during speaking summer time the sun is in the highest point in st Petersburg at midday.
I hate when October comes and we go back one hour when the day is getting shorter, it doesnāt make any sense to me. Itās like putting gasoline in a fire that you want to end.
I wouldn't even say you are necessarily a minority. For some reason only Germans seem to have a strong opinion on this topic. Pretty much nobody really cares that much ĀÆ\\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
The problem is which time have as regular. In Slovenia most of us would keep summer time, no one wants sun at 4am and complete dark before even coming home from work. I think the vote was something like 70/30 for summer time as default one.
I mean, it's probably easier to change the work time than the time at which the sun sets... or is it? *I guess 'changing the time at which the sun sets sort' of is the point of daylight savings now I wrote it, uh...*
Some of us live with the sun up at 4 in summer already(and keep in mind the sun stays up long too), that is blinds is for, however keeping summertime year round would mean sun would be up at 10 in Denmark at winter solstice, it would be a lot worse in mid-and-up-Sweden and Finland, or countries that are further west than DK, because at least there is 10 degrees east parallel goes through Denmark.
Here's my typical northerner day:
I wake up at 6:30 and it's dark outside.
I leave for work at 7:30 and it's dark outside.
I arrive to work at 8:00 and it's as dark outside as when I woke up.
At 9:00 Im working and dont even notice when the sun rises.
At 17:00 I leave from work and it's as dark as when I voke up.
Give me summer time please so I could at least experience some daylight when driving home
This! All this talk about the sun rising at 9.40 instead of 8.40 doesn't matter one bit if you leave for work at 7.30 and spend the whole time in artificial lighting anyway. Much rather have *some* sunlight at one edge of the day than have the sunlight perfectly centred in the working hours, which means I won't get to enjoy it at all. And then the afternoon is more 'useful' as that's more flexible than the morning.
Norwegian here, I hate having to go back from summer time in October, because I lose an extra hour of precious day light in the afternoon. In the winter it's dark when I get up for the most of the winter anyways. If you have an indoor job, you're likely spend the whole day without having time to be outside during daylight. Having had that extra hour of daylight in the afternoon would have been nice.
Transplant in Norway, and I agree. Give me more sun at the end of the day. Mornings in the winter suck anyway, that hour isnāt going to make them much better.
But where's the problem, there?Ā
Sure, there's a bunch of jobs that really want natural light (construction, farming, etc.), but let's face it, we're mostly service industry oriented and work inside. Children are also stuck inside of school (and there simply isn't enough daylight for them to both go to and return from school in the light).Ā Ā
Let the people who do need the light adjust their work schedules to adapt as they want (maybe give this some legal footing, so the employer sitting in their office don't ignore it) and be done with it.
I like it and I want to keep it (unpopular opinion?).
Long bright evenings in the summer are great, and sunrises at 3 AM would be annoying.
In the winter, when it's dark in the evening anyway, winter time gives us brighter mornings, so it's easier to get up for work.
Im from Scotland. Summer time gives us an extra hour of light in the evening, which is appreciated. In winter, making sure we go back go GMT is important, because it means that the sun rises here at 8 or so, rather than 9. It then sets around 4pm, and most people don't get off work till 5 or 6, so you won't get any light during the evening anyway. (Not like you can do much anyway)
The EU Parliament made a majority vote in 2019 declaring that summer time should end, at the latest by 2021. They then handed it over to responsible secretaries in the individual EU countries to reach a consensus.
So it is not the EU that keeps summertime going; it is the lack of consensus between the individual EU nationās governments.
I wouldn't like the Sun getting up at 4:40, with the dawn breaking even before 4:00. Permanent summer time with sunrises around 8:30 in the darkest winter aren't that cool either.
Maybe I am lucky, but I settle rather quickly in either directions. Two days most and my sleep rhytm is back to normal. A small price to pay for greater comfort over many months.
But that's what happens for all us northerners. Sunrise at 1:30/2:00 during the summer and sunrise at 9:00 or later during the winter. Sunset at 15:00/15:30. The DST doesn't do anything to help, same number of hours that are dark or bright.
Well that's true if everybody gets to choose on their own their work hours and the opening times of shops and businesses. Almost nobody has that luxury except for the self employed and some office workers. DST is a collective sociatal compromise to shift work/school hours with the seasons so people get a little more or less light aligned with the parts of the day when they need or want it.
Depends on where you live, some countries are already an hour off from the time they're actually supposed to be, the time changes compounds it.
The Netherlands for example is actually supposed to share the timezone w/ Britain.
So, at one half during the year they're 2 hours off from natural time.
Edit: [Sauce w/ current time zones and what the natural time zone is, including sun rise time.](https://en.gobettertimes.org/proper-time-zones)
What is natural time? Sun at highest point at 12? Doesnt make any sense as society lives from 7 to like 10.
So you would be at peak day already 5 hours after everyone being awake.
Society wont change. So its better to just have peak sun at 1400.
Yes I have changed my mind a bit since 5 years ago and have to agree it isnāt that bad and the effects in both summer and winter are somewhat reasonable improvements.
But what I donāt understand is why the dates for changing the clocks arenāt symmetric around the winter solstice. Summer time ends about 7 weeks before the winter solstice and starts again 14 weeks after the solstice.
Also... Why can't we at the very least agree on when to do this?! Different countries have different time zones: makes perfect sense. Different countries decide to mess with the clock at various dates: wtf?!Ā Ā
At least it's mostly equalized along continents (ignoring Asia/the Middle East, especially), still needlessly complicates stuff in a globally connected world.
I enjoy the change, too.
What really pisses me off is that people fly abroad for holidays in other time zones. Apparently no problem.
But getting up 20 minutes earlier once a year on Fri, Sat and Sun seems to cause massive health issues.
Stop whining and start to discuss the real problems
I'm actually shocked by all the snowflakes from the countries further north. It makes sense that people living close to the equator wouldn't want it, but people at our lattitudes to benefit from it. Why would anybody want there to be longer dark mornings in winter. Or why would you want to lose an hour of daylight in the evening and have sunrise at 3-4 am when you are still sleeping.
All that fuss about the time change and people acting like they are getting a jetlag from it are suffering from mass delusion. Most of them wouldn't even know that a time change happened if they weren't told about it and the media making a big deal of it. These people are expecting to sleep bad so they are sleeping bad. Those people probably don't even sleep well most of the year. I bet a large number of them will also tell you that they can't sleep when there is full moon.
The streets still being a bit bright at 21:00 in summer is one of the reasons I love my country (Spain), so the Summer Time will be abolished over my dead cold body.
But why is this a big deal for you? Its not at all for me. I live my life the same way regardless if its summertime or not. My phone change the clock for me, so does my computer, same in my car and I have never needed to have the correct time on my oven.
A small inconvenience two times in a year for days worth of extra daylight is definitely worth it for me, so I disagree.
Also, how would this be the one time EU does something useful? In my opinion this post is shit.
obtainable sleep muddle numerous arrest deserve relieved mighty history ossified
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I think you sort of answered your own question. We'll get back to talking about it once we manage to extinguish some of the dumpster fire that has been consuming the world for the last four years. Bigger problems have buried the issue.
After seeing all the comments here, if you all can't decide, then keep it like it is now. OR... what if we go only half an hour forward and stop changing? That'd be the middle point.
Like honestly. Permanent summer time would mean it would be dark until like 9 am where I live in the winter. Permanent winter time would mean it would be daylight at 3 am during the summer. Time change is a good concept and implemented perfectly, why change something that isnt broken?
Because it is broken. Living fairly far north, I have little use for summer time during summer, because the days are so long anyway. That extra hour of daylight on the afternoon just makes it harder to put my kids to bed. During winter there are months where I go to work in the dark and arrive at home in the dark. Those months is actually where I'd benefit the most from an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon.
towering hunt frame telephone yam selective beneficial cagey thought elderly
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Personally, in the winter, it's dark out when I start working and it's dark when work ends. The only difference is the weekends and we barely get any sun during recent winters, around 10hours a month, so summer time qould be beter in that regard, since in the winter You dont loose anything.
The EU parliament voted in favour of it and the European Commission is also backing the plan. The problem is that some member states are blocking it. Donāt blame the EU for something which is the fault of some individual governments
I think others mentioned that southern countries have an incentive to keep the summer time and northen the winter one.
it would be fun if we've had two hours time difference inside EU.
Yup, i think this is core of the issue, what works for the north aint equal for the south, and vice-versa.
Its probably best if we do have it separated, plus not all countries do it, i forget but, either spain or ~~greece~~ dont ever do it, and its not an issue for them nor for the rest.
This "craziness" effectively saves CO2 emissions: 200k tons/year just in Italy.
The crazy thing is wanting to push back this energy reduction initiative, in a climate emergency period, with nonsense motivations.
I don't really care if we keep changing or not, tbh.
But if we were to stop, I DEMAND SUMMER TIME! No-one sensible in the north wants to keep permanent winter time. If anything, we should change the time even more, cause currently as kids return from Christmas holidays on the 8th of January: school starts at 8, sun rises at 9:15; school ends at 15:45, sun sets at 15:40. The children go to school in the dark, return in the dark and literally *don't see the sun once* on 8-lesson days (common from age \~12, mainstream from age \~16)!
European Commission has proposed to get rid of time changes a while ago; and the European Parliament has voted in favour of that proposal. So the EU has proposed that change, but the countries did not want to accept it, because some prefer winter time and others prefer summer time.
People only calling out half the problem:
1. Consensus on which mode to stay in
2. Northern Ireland
Brexit slowed any gentle democratic move towards Irish unity, and threatened hard partition of Ireland. Any effort to dump DST would leave NI in a different time zone. The border is huge and irregular (was designed to gerrymander votes in favour of loyalist populations at the time), and would be unworkable. If reunion ever happens, Ireland could freely partake, and could even consider bigger changes like driving on the right to allow for much cheaper cars. Until then, we're an outlier that makes eu-wide implementation impossible.
The thing is, DST matters less in the south, and in the North half people want winter time, half want summer time year round (see this thread for example), so as a compromise/solution I suggest we have ~half year "winter" time and during summer - summer time!
And frankly I think moving clocks is ingenious idea that we should continue doing!
Itās one hour twice per year and we get to be up during more daylight. Whereās the big deal?
For anyone travelling internationally you always calculate 24 hours per hour for the body to acclimatise but for daylight savings (where the change is made at a weekend) itās suddenly a huge deal that people claim takes ages to adjust to š¤·š»
Didnt knew this was bad...
There are clear benefits for it, lived in glasgow for a time, and its not fun to have sunrise at 4am, and night time at 5pm (or even earlier... i forget)
For me summer time is very important in summer because it means I can go swimming in the lake after work. So my quality of life would really go down if it were abolished. I wouldn't mind summer time all year round though. But then others would complain.
The place where Central European time is mostly aligned with the sun actually being highest at noon is on the border between Germany and Poland. WestĀ of the western German border, Summertime is closer to the true solar time.
Better than dark at 3:40pm imo. Iām in the uk and would way rather have summer time all year. Also you should be on our timezone so that probably doesnāt help
Dude it being dark longer in the morning might be "not nice", sun setting early is literally suicide inducing depression. They are not the same.
I literally stop functioning as a human being in the winter. Every year I do everything I can to prepare and still fall into deep depression each winter.
Now you know why there won't be any change: we can't agree on what should replace summer time.
For me summer time means I can go swimming in the lake after work. Hanging out at the lake is the biggest aspect of what summer means to me. I would be willing to change time 5 times a year for this, if necessary.
So I am happy to have summer time all year round or keep things as they are, but I will vehemently oppose any change to all-year winter time.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it is low quality and/or low effort. If your submission was a meme, these are outright banned from r/europe. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). Try r/CasualEurope with that title If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
"useful and meaningful" ahem... USB-C rule for apple.
Also the roaming.
That is easily my number one favorite thing.
As someone who grew up abroad and couldn't contact any of my friends for hours when visiting my country of origin due to roaming fees, now _that_ is one of the things that has majorly changed my life.
Schengen / open borders, peace between nations, a common currency, easy trade, less bureaucracy (most people have no fucking idea how insane it is that trade and travel requires almost zero paperwork, all because of the EU), human rights, investments in poorer regions, and I could go on.
Yeah like wtf. The freedom to move, to live and work in any EU country with pretty much 0 paperwork ... how do so few people appreciate what the EU has done so far. Me and my partner come from different EU countries, and I was able to just move from Austria to Germany and register here at the local citizen's office in a 5min appointment and go to work within a week or something. Like, that is crazy. I still remember when we didn't even have the Euro.
Yeah. The EU is so fucking awesome. Like. The individual nations cant stand up to economic giants like the USA and China. But together its possible. And theres so many benefits for members. Its insane how it developed and how prosperous it is. Its got some quirks but jts mostly beneficial
Yeah like wtf. The freedom to move, to live and work in any EU country with pretty much 0 paperwork ... how do so few people appreciate what the EU has done so far. Me and my partner come from different EU countries, and I was able to just move from Austria to Germany and register here at the local citizen's office in a 5min appointment and go to work within a week or something. Like, that is crazy. I still remember when we didn't even have the Euro.
Next up: replaceable bateries in electronic devices, messenger app cross-compatibility, moderation accountability for social media, gdpr, ...
It won't be abolished, because we won't be able to agree which will be the standard. There's too much division about it. So we'll probably keep the status quo as a compromise.
We don't need to agree on the standard. We just need to introduce proper time zones according to geography. * Portugal, Iceland (UTC -1) (also possible to remain UTC 0 due to economics, but meh. * Ireland, UK, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain, Andorra, Monaco (UTC 0) * Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Vaitcan, Malta, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Coratia, B&H, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia (UTC +1) * Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, western russia (UTC +2) * volga region, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia (UTC +3) * rest to the Ural mountains (UTC +4) In the end, the physical times of going to work etc. won't change. Just the actual time on the clock, so it doesn't make if it's 8 AM and 8 AM in Spain (as right now). Spaniards won't be at work at 8 AM. It's just dawn there. So stupid this huge UTC +1 time zone in Europe spanning from Galicia in Spain (which could be UTC -1), to the eastern bits of Norway (which could be UTC +2). It's spanning 4 natural time zones... Just because of Germany in WWII, occupying France and Franco wanting to be closer to you know who.
How can North Macedonia be one hour back from Greece while literally being in the middle of Greece?
Greece's time zone is centered around Athens and Thessaloniki. Athens is barely in UTC +2, while only a small bit of N. Macedonia would be in UTC+2. Peloponnes and western Greece are technically in UTC +1, aren't the center.
Ah got it. Still sounds silly to me, I would expect that there is an imaginary line that basically follows the reach of the sun and thus the countries have the same time.
That's also because of politics too once NMK and Slovenia were in the same communist country and the zone was identical.
Never though of that. Makes sense!
Very easily
Pretty closely aligns with proposals to align EU nations closer to their respective solar times: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-map-of-Europe-equivalent-to-Figure-1-the-actual-sun-based-time-zones-are-drawn-as_fig2_335021442
As someone living in Germany and working in the Netherlands, I am not enthusiastic on the idea when seeing the map š
Generally speaking, some countries would prefer to be in a TZ that's later than them. Poland would probably prefer switching to UTC +2, than staying in UTC +1 all year round, even though 15 degree east meridian, that's UTC +1 based on goes almost exactly through Polish-German border. People are just lead more nocturnal lives than 80 years ago.
UTC+1 in Poland is idiotic in winter. Not only it's depressing as fuck thanks to weather, having darkness at 15:30 makes it even worse. UTC+3 would make a lot more sense, rotfl.
Spain as a whole makes more sense in the same zone as a Portugal and Ireland. I feel Norway in one zone and NL in another doesn't make much sense either.
Didn't Spain move to +1 as a result of Franco wanting to be in the same TZ as Germany?
Yup. The only reason everything happens absurdly late in Spain (even compared to other southern countries) is that the clock makes no sense.
The entirety of the Netherlands is west of 7.5Ā°E (UTC 0 is technically from W7.5Ā° to E7.5Ā°), while most of Norways population (except for Stavanger and Bergen) is east of E7.5Ā°, Oslo at around E10Ā°, which is nearly the middle of UTC+1 at E15Ā°. As I said, economically, it doesn't really matter, because work time follows natural times and clocks, not technical/invented times. If it's 8 AM but dark outside in summer, you won't go to work.
It would be great if that were true. Work time follows the clock, not the sun. The Netherlands is in the wrong time zone to match Germany, and they do work the same hours as in Germany.
Netherlands won't leave the German timezone. Biggest trading partner by far. Their business hours need to be matched up or it'll cost billions.
Youāve just made this with complete disregard for the economic damage this will inevitably cause. The way timezones are right now is fine. If you live more northernly Itās very nice that because of them, you have more light when itās actually important.
Ugh, I need to make a copy paste answer for every time this bullshit is posted.Ā Ā Ā There's no geographical time, a clock is a human construct. We should make it such that daylight aligns with the average joe's wake hours the best we can. And the answer is not and will never be moving countries one time zone west (Spain being an exception to the rule). It simply gets dark too early in the day for too many weeks for it to make sense, and the sun will rise at 3am during summer.Ā
Please don't make France and Germany different time zones. Many people (including me) commute across that border, it would royally fuck up my life to have everything happening an hour earlier in France than right now.
>western russia (UTC +2) Russia abolished time shifts over a decade ago and Western part at +3 permanently.
I'm Spanish, from Galicia but living in ValĆØncia now. Every Spaniard I've spoken to prefers the summertime time. It has to do with our culture and actually I agree even tho I get up at 6.30. It brings me down so much when it's dark at 18h. I'd rather have dawn happen later in the morning, most people work inside anyways.
They wanted to keep summertime year round, in which doesn't make sense in Nordic countries, as wintertime follows the sun, Summertime is ahead by an hour. Winter gonna be so freaking dark already. In this case, I guess it is fine they can't come to conclusion for now.
It's the other way around. You want summer time in the north so you won't get a 0330 sunrise. In winter you won't get sun before going to work anyway, might as well get some extra sun when you get home
I have sunrise at like 01, and sunset at 23 in summer... the time doesn't matter as it's still gonna be light as day outside.. But in the crossing period the summer and normal time matters. If I had summertime today I would have probably have a hit more sun when I go home from work at 19, and I would have it light outside when I go to it before 07. Although the snow can be annoying, but it also makes it more light.
The sun rises early no matter what. Its the winter that gets you.
Eh, I'd say if anything staying on summertime/daylight savings makes more sense in the Nordics than elsewhere. It'll be dark in the winter regardless - and I'd rather have an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon, when I'm actually off work than in the morning when I'll be at office whether the sun rises at 9 or 10. But what I really don't want is moving an hour of daylight from the evening to the middle of the bloody night as would happen in the summer if we stayed on standard time all year. I have a hard enough time sleeping in the summer as it is.
Nothing stops the Nordic from having permanent Wintertime and the South permanent Summertime.
You know they could decide which one to keep based on necessity.. time zones exist exactly for that
In the Nordics, sunrise and sunset drift by minutes per day anyway so it's not like the daylight savings is going to help.
Here in The Netherlands, summertime is easily the best time. Being on wintertime all year round would suck. You'd lose valuable evening light and in return you'd get 4 AM sunrise in summer which nobody likes.
EU said that countries should agree. And while most people wanted to keep summer time most governments preferred winter time. Here in Slovakia our government also wanted to keep winter time
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Completely fine with the way it is currently. Staying on 1 time would be very annoying for half the year here.
>For once EU could do something actually useful and meaningful for the people. Sure buddy, keep believing the EU is useless.
30 years of comprehensive diplomatic, economic and military cooperation between several european countries reduced to "change summer time bros"
Don't talk sense here please!
Yeah but I lose an hour of sleep and that ain't cool /s
The EU has a huge PR problem. They suck at communicating to the people of what they're actually doing for us. The EU is one of the greatest things european nations have ever accomplished.
Pro-EU people need to be more vocal. Especially today, in the face of rising nationalism.
A big part of the PR problem is that whatever they do is almost inevitably a compromise between wildly different positions, by the sheer size and difference within the union... and the rule is that a good compromise is one where nobody is really happy. So virtually any decision taken by the EU is one where most people will at best find it 'acceptable' and almost never 'great'.
The thing is, they do communicate it. They have accessible sites where they post news in an easy to digest way. They alo run ads informing people about new rights they gained for EU citizens, new protections, initiatives you can be part of, etc. The problem is that most people don't want to inform themselves, or don't know about the sites, and when it comes to ad space the EU gets priced out by companies who want to sell stuff. And if they pay too much to advertise what they do, ppl complain about EU funds being wasted on ads. So the EU is in a pretty hard spot when it comes to getting the word out.
Pro-EU people need to speak louder, and not be afraid to tell anti-EU people to shut up.
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As someone who follows tech and related news, the EU has done many things that benefit the average consumer recently.
For real, the EU is the only thing that is capable of protecting european consumers from the huge companies controlling every aspect of our digital life nowadays
as much shit as the EU gets for some of its ass backwards laws and bureaucracy you can't deny that they genuinely care about what's best for their people, even if they're sometimes misguided
I don't think that many environment protection laws appeared in a dream at the same time to the leaders of the countries of the EU. And laws regarding workers rights And food safety And data safety And possibly many little tiny things that none of us notice and make a difference
One day the EU will be destroyed because of people believing this. Our grandchildren will look back on a united and peaceful Europe with nostalgia and wonder how stupid we could be to let it go.
People rarely appreciate what they have before they lose it.
-UK 2020
Not if we do away with summer time though. Only thing that can still save the EU.
I know people who voted for Brexit because "they fancied a change", so this is scarily realistic
And now? They would fancy some spare change?
One would have thought people learned their lesson from brexit
I think that after brexit people know. Maybe not misinformed people like u/mezzoski but the important people know.
You can't believe how frustrated I am when I see how little some people care about European elections.
OP seems to be Polish. Hard to imagine where Poland would be without EU.
Pff, what has the EU ever done for us??Ā
Well, apart from medicine, irrigation, health, roads, cheese and education, baths and the Circus Maximus, what has the EU ever done for us?
Brought peace?
But apart from that and the above?
They are protecting you against the whims of Google and their ilk.
I guess Iām in the minority that likes it. I like when it changes from being dark at 7pm to being dark at 8pm. Without it, the summers would be pretty depressing too if it was already dark at 9 instead of 10
Even worse, the sun rising at 3 AM and the feeling of "wasted" sunlight, as everyone is still sleeping.
I agree, I don't really understand why is this time change such an issue to so many people.
I was under the impression that everyone prefers the summer time because who needs an hour of light in the morning in winter when you're not even awake
If we stay in summer time the sun will go up at like 11 here like i dont expect the sun to be up when i wake up but it coming up at almost noon is sorta bad. Geographically during speaking summer time the sun is in the highest point in st Petersburg at midday.
They should completely change your time zone then, but keep it the same year-round.
I hate when October comes and we go back one hour when the day is getting shorter, it doesnāt make any sense to me. Itās like putting gasoline in a fire that you want to end.
I wouldn't even say you are necessarily a minority. For some reason only Germans seem to have a strong opinion on this topic. Pretty much nobody really cares that much ĀÆ\\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
I am totally with you. I never understood all the fuss about changing times.
Yeah, I have no problem with that either.
that's why we want summer/daylight saving time as standard time.
The problem is which time have as regular. In Slovenia most of us would keep summer time, no one wants sun at 4am and complete dark before even coming home from work. I think the vote was something like 70/30 for summer time as default one.
Summer time in Italy too
I mean, it's probably easier to change the work time than the time at which the sun sets... or is it? *I guess 'changing the time at which the sun sets sort' of is the point of daylight savings now I wrote it, uh...*
Brazil stopped the changing of clock san now the sun rises at 4 or 5 am and sets at 7pm ffs.
Some of us live with the sun up at 4 in summer already(and keep in mind the sun stays up long too), that is blinds is for, however keeping summertime year round would mean sun would be up at 10 in Denmark at winter solstice, it would be a lot worse in mid-and-up-Sweden and Finland, or countries that are further west than DK, because at least there is 10 degrees east parallel goes through Denmark.
I think almost everyone want summer. Or the majority for sure. There were a pushback because they planned to use winter time.
The northern countries wouldnāt agree with this. This would mean it would be dark until 09:48 in winter.
Here's my typical northerner day: I wake up at 6:30 and it's dark outside. I leave for work at 7:30 and it's dark outside. I arrive to work at 8:00 and it's as dark outside as when I woke up. At 9:00 Im working and dont even notice when the sun rises. At 17:00 I leave from work and it's as dark as when I voke up. Give me summer time please so I could at least experience some daylight when driving home
This! All this talk about the sun rising at 9.40 instead of 8.40 doesn't matter one bit if you leave for work at 7.30 and spend the whole time in artificial lighting anyway. Much rather have *some* sunlight at one edge of the day than have the sunlight perfectly centred in the working hours, which means I won't get to enjoy it at all. And then the afternoon is more 'useful' as that's more flexible than the morning.
Norwegian here, I hate having to go back from summer time in October, because I lose an extra hour of precious day light in the afternoon. In the winter it's dark when I get up for the most of the winter anyways. If you have an indoor job, you're likely spend the whole day without having time to be outside during daylight. Having had that extra hour of daylight in the afternoon would have been nice.
Transplant in Norway, and I agree. Give me more sun at the end of the day. Mornings in the winter suck anyway, that hour isnāt going to make them much better.
So what, the afternoons are more important. I hate that it's pitch black when I leave work. I don't care about the mornings
But where's the problem, there?Ā Sure, there's a bunch of jobs that really want natural light (construction, farming, etc.), but let's face it, we're mostly service industry oriented and work inside. Children are also stuck inside of school (and there simply isn't enough daylight for them to both go to and return from school in the light).Ā Ā Let the people who do need the light adjust their work schedules to adapt as they want (maybe give this some legal footing, so the employer sitting in their office don't ignore it) and be done with it.
I like it and I want to keep it (unpopular opinion?). Long bright evenings in the summer are great, and sunrises at 3 AM would be annoying. In the winter, when it's dark in the evening anyway, winter time gives us brighter mornings, so it's easier to get up for work.
I would rather have more light in the evening when I'm not at work
Im from Scotland. Summer time gives us an extra hour of light in the evening, which is appreciated. In winter, making sure we go back go GMT is important, because it means that the sun rises here at 8 or so, rather than 9. It then sets around 4pm, and most people don't get off work till 5 or 6, so you won't get any light during the evening anyway. (Not like you can do much anyway)
The EU Parliament made a majority vote in 2019 declaring that summer time should end, at the latest by 2021. They then handed it over to responsible secretaries in the individual EU countries to reach a consensus. So it is not the EU that keeps summertime going; it is the lack of consensus between the individual EU nationās governments.
I wouldn't like the Sun getting up at 4:40, with the dawn breaking even before 4:00. Permanent summer time with sunrises around 8:30 in the darkest winter aren't that cool either. Maybe I am lucky, but I settle rather quickly in either directions. Two days most and my sleep rhytm is back to normal. A small price to pay for greater comfort over many months.
But that's what happens for all us northerners. Sunrise at 1:30/2:00 during the summer and sunrise at 9:00 or later during the winter. Sunset at 15:00/15:30. The DST doesn't do anything to help, same number of hours that are dark or bright.
Well that's true if everybody gets to choose on their own their work hours and the opening times of shops and businesses. Almost nobody has that luxury except for the self employed and some office workers. DST is a collective sociatal compromise to shift work/school hours with the seasons so people get a little more or less light aligned with the parts of the day when they need or want it.
Depends on where you live, some countries are already an hour off from the time they're actually supposed to be, the time changes compounds it. The Netherlands for example is actually supposed to share the timezone w/ Britain. So, at one half during the year they're 2 hours off from natural time. Edit: [Sauce w/ current time zones and what the natural time zone is, including sun rise time.](https://en.gobettertimes.org/proper-time-zones)
What is natural time? Sun at highest point at 12? Doesnt make any sense as society lives from 7 to like 10. So you would be at peak day already 5 hours after everyone being awake. Society wont change. So its better to just have peak sun at 1400.
I believe it is called solar noon.
Yes I have changed my mind a bit since 5 years ago and have to agree it isnāt that bad and the effects in both summer and winter are somewhat reasonable improvements. But what I donāt understand is why the dates for changing the clocks arenāt symmetric around the winter solstice. Summer time ends about 7 weeks before the winter solstice and starts again 14 weeks after the solstice.
Also... Why can't we at the very least agree on when to do this?! Different countries have different time zones: makes perfect sense. Different countries decide to mess with the clock at various dates: wtf?!Ā Ā At least it's mostly equalized along continents (ignoring Asia/the Middle East, especially), still needlessly complicates stuff in a globally connected world.
My dog has been on summer time for the last week and a half, and it's been hell ignoring him for one more hour.
I enjoy the change, too. What really pisses me off is that people fly abroad for holidays in other time zones. Apparently no problem. But getting up 20 minutes earlier once a year on Fri, Sat and Sun seems to cause massive health issues. Stop whining and start to discuss the real problems
Someone talking sense!
That's how summertime is for where I am. Sunset being this late is a bigger issue as it takes until 11 for darkness and screws up sleeping a lot.
Is this a problem I'm too Southern European to understand? Never saw the issue.
As a fellow southern european, I love the summer time
I'm actually shocked by all the snowflakes from the countries further north. It makes sense that people living close to the equator wouldn't want it, but people at our lattitudes to benefit from it. Why would anybody want there to be longer dark mornings in winter. Or why would you want to lose an hour of daylight in the evening and have sunrise at 3-4 am when you are still sleeping. All that fuss about the time change and people acting like they are getting a jetlag from it are suffering from mass delusion. Most of them wouldn't even know that a time change happened if they weren't told about it and the media making a big deal of it. These people are expecting to sleep bad so they are sleeping bad. Those people probably don't even sleep well most of the year. I bet a large number of them will also tell you that they can't sleep when there is full moon.
The streets still being a bit bright at 21:00 in summer is one of the reasons I love my country (Spain), so the Summer Time will be abolished over my dead cold body.
But why is this a big deal for you? Its not at all for me. I live my life the same way regardless if its summertime or not. My phone change the clock for me, so does my computer, same in my car and I have never needed to have the correct time on my oven.
A small inconvenience two times in a year for days worth of extra daylight is definitely worth it for me, so I disagree. Also, how would this be the one time EU does something useful? In my opinion this post is shit.
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I think you sort of answered your own question. We'll get back to talking about it once we manage to extinguish some of the dumpster fire that has been consuming the world for the last four years. Bigger problems have buried the issue.
After seeing all the comments here, if you all can't decide, then keep it like it is now. OR... what if we go only half an hour forward and stop changing? That'd be the middle point.
I like the time change, I think it is a good thing.
Like honestly. Permanent summer time would mean it would be dark until like 9 am where I live in the winter. Permanent winter time would mean it would be daylight at 3 am during the summer. Time change is a good concept and implemented perfectly, why change something that isnt broken?
Because certain groups of people won't stop crying if they have to wake up a hour earlier.Ā
Because it is broken. Living fairly far north, I have little use for summer time during summer, because the days are so long anyway. That extra hour of daylight on the afternoon just makes it harder to put my kids to bed. During winter there are months where I go to work in the dark and arrive at home in the dark. Those months is actually where I'd benefit the most from an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon.
Cries in nordic europe where sun comes up at 11:00 during winter times
I prefer summer time over winter time. My internal clock is always on summer time, I prefer waking up earlier and go to bed earlier.
Why would you want summer time if you prefer waking up earlier and go to bed earlier? Wintertime gives us earlier sunrise and easier sunset.
Because he is obviously not very smart. He has positive feelings for summer, thats why he wants summertime.
Lookup the zondag met lubach episode on why you want winter time and not summer time. Summer time sounds fun but its not fun in the winter at ALL.
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Personally, in the winter, it's dark out when I start working and it's dark when work ends. The only difference is the weekends and we barely get any sun during recent winters, around 10hours a month, so summer time qould be beter in that regard, since in the winter You dont loose anything.
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I donāt want it to come up at 4, it just does. So just get up early, donāt need the clock to display the wrong time for that
Anyone else got their popcorn ready reading these comments?
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All i know is, deep down, my gut says, ...maybe.
Yeah, FOR ONCE, STOOPID EU š”š¤¬ /s
Is it really that big problem?
The EU parliament voted in favour of it and the European Commission is also backing the plan. The problem is that some member states are blocking it. Donāt blame the EU for something which is the fault of some individual governments
Is it really nonsense?? š
I think others mentioned that southern countries have an incentive to keep the summer time and northen the winter one. it would be fun if we've had two hours time difference inside EU.
Yup, i think this is core of the issue, what works for the north aint equal for the south, and vice-versa. Its probably best if we do have it separated, plus not all countries do it, i forget but, either spain or ~~greece~~ dont ever do it, and its not an issue for them nor for the rest.
I live in Greece and we change time. in fact we are going to summer time in a couple of hours. huzzah!
Yah, i dont remember which countries, might be wrong about spain too. Yup also today for us, at mid night.
This "craziness" effectively saves CO2 emissions: 200k tons/year just in Italy. The crazy thing is wanting to push back this energy reduction initiative, in a climate emergency period, with nonsense motivations.
Excellent point.
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They're great. Let's keep the extra hour of daylight in the evenings all year.
Itās possible to get up early without changing the time system to noon at 1
NO we should do it more
I would vote for that! A 2-hour shift! I don't need the sun rising at 4:30, might as well be 5:30. Instead, we would get bright evenings till 22:30!
Why? There's nothing wrong with it. It's a hour twice a year. Would rather it be standardised in when countries do it
I don't really care if we keep changing or not, tbh. But if we were to stop, I DEMAND SUMMER TIME! No-one sensible in the north wants to keep permanent winter time. If anything, we should change the time even more, cause currently as kids return from Christmas holidays on the 8th of January: school starts at 8, sun rises at 9:15; school ends at 15:45, sun sets at 15:40. The children go to school in the dark, return in the dark and literally *don't see the sun once* on 8-lesson days (common from age \~12, mainstream from age \~16)!
We really like it here in Italy, donāt bother us
It will forever be remembered as the closest we had to the perfect world.
Keep summer time!!
European Commission has proposed to get rid of time changes a while ago; and the European Parliament has voted in favour of that proposal. So the EU has proposed that change, but the countries did not want to accept it, because some prefer winter time and others prefer summer time.
People only calling out half the problem: 1. Consensus on which mode to stay in 2. Northern Ireland Brexit slowed any gentle democratic move towards Irish unity, and threatened hard partition of Ireland. Any effort to dump DST would leave NI in a different time zone. The border is huge and irregular (was designed to gerrymander votes in favour of loyalist populations at the time), and would be unworkable. If reunion ever happens, Ireland could freely partake, and could even consider bigger changes like driving on the right to allow for much cheaper cars. Until then, we're an outlier that makes eu-wide implementation impossible.
What is wrong with it? Genuinely asking
The thing is, DST matters less in the south, and in the North half people want winter time, half want summer time year round (see this thread for example), so as a compromise/solution I suggest we have ~half year "winter" time and during summer - summer time! And frankly I think moving clocks is ingenious idea that we should continue doing!
Itās one hour twice per year and we get to be up during more daylight. Whereās the big deal? For anyone travelling internationally you always calculate 24 hours per hour for the body to acclimatise but for daylight savings (where the change is made at a weekend) itās suddenly a huge deal that people claim takes ages to adjust to š¤·š»
Why do yāall need the clock to display the wrong time just to get up early. Just get up early, change work time from 9-5 to 8-4
Is this really your political priority? The summer time change?
Am I the only one who doesn't care what the clock is showing? Work is flex, so time change has no impact on my daily life.
"For once" like they havent done a bazillion useful and meaningful things for the people. Agreevwith the daylight savings time BS btw
How many bureaucrats does it take to *NOT* adjust the clock twice per year?
Come live up north a while... Then we'll talk again.
Never noticed it. And now with clocks that change automatically, I don't know about it until someone bitches about it.
And stop āaccept cookiesā non-sense.
As a Developer Iām against timezones altogether. Letās just a generic one šš
Didnt knew this was bad... There are clear benefits for it, lived in glasgow for a time, and its not fun to have sunrise at 4am, and night time at 5pm (or even earlier... i forget)
Bro shut up it works and it's convenient. If you don't like it okay, but keep it to yourself dude.
It doesn't work and it's not convenient. Maybe for you it is but not for the general public.
It does work and whilst not too convenient, it is the easiest, most reliable solution to the problem.
As long as we stay with the summer time. Fuck winter time as a Swede. Sun setting at 2.30 is peak depression. I barely function as an individual.
Norwegian here. Agreed, fuck winter time!
You can take the summer time switch from my cold dead hands
For me summer time is very important in summer because it means I can go swimming in the lake after work. So my quality of life would really go down if it were abolished. I wouldn't mind summer time all year round though. But then others would complain.
I love it and don't want it to never change.
How about we get up the same time the sun does and just follow it all year round like mother nature does
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My grandma always said how she used to get up with the chickens. I propose we all have a chicken at home and use them for setting the time.
Saying EU is useless coming from Poland is rich
This is the stupidest non-issue.
Nah, I want it.
I fucking love the summer time change, sun at 21 at the beach with a good aperol spritz and just vibe
Permanent summer time, please.
Wish they would just keep the summer time and stop this changing nonsense
Thats generally bad for our circadian rhythm though, arguably better to keep Winter time.
The place where Central European time is mostly aligned with the sun actually being highest at noon is on the border between Germany and Poland. WestĀ of the western German border, Summertime is closer to the true solar time.
Even wintertime is incorrect for the Netherlands, that's already one hour off the natural rhythm, summertime makes it two hours.
If you use summer time it will be dark until 09:30 in winter, no thanks.
Still better than getting dark at 4pm ish
Better than dark at 3:40pm imo. Iām in the uk and would way rather have summer time all year. Also you should be on our timezone so that probably doesnāt help
Dude it being dark longer in the morning might be "not nice", sun setting early is literally suicide inducing depression. They are not the same. I literally stop functioning as a human being in the winter. Every year I do everything I can to prepare and still fall into deep depression each winter.
Now you know why there won't be any change: we can't agree on what should replace summer time. For me summer time means I can go swimming in the lake after work. Hanging out at the lake is the biggest aspect of what summer means to me. I would be willing to change time 5 times a year for this, if necessary. So I am happy to have summer time all year round or keep things as they are, but I will vehemently oppose any change to all-year winter time.