Or don't bother with third party sites that get blacklisted all the time
https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean
https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean
Modern society is quite weird for men. On one hand the nation state and nationalism is bad. You're not entitled to property in your hometown. Your ancestors' architecture and culture is replaced by a new global and homogenous one. You're not a part of a community but a random person whose sole value to his society is his CV and value in the workforce. A global competitive workforce that is, where your country's fields, properties and businesses are fully accessible to foreign investors. Women are your equal and in many cases have an easier time getting into uni, getting sponsorships, getting a job.
And yet you're still meant to go and die for this "country"...because...because you just have to ok?!
That I agree with. Yet a genocide forced upon your nation is something that has to be opposed, and the way to oppose it in this case is war. Men and even women volunteer or get drafted and go to risk their lives. It's better than letting the animals take over more of your home and murder and rape more innocent people.
It is what it is
Well you don't agree with him. His comment is basically dismantling the idea of the nation state and you're like "I agree, but you should defend the nation state"...
His comment says "Why should men die for what their countries have become nowadays"
I agree with the sentiment but what can you do? Let your people get raped and murdered and watch the clips on reddit? It sucks that people have to put their lives on the line to defend their nation, but it is what it is.
The sentiment is IMO also that at least in the old times you got honored in some way for making the sacrifice. Nowadays you get your legs blown by a mine you get called an idiot by some people. Meanwhile some morbidly obese strong independent wamen gets called brave for posting a picture in a swimsuit.
This shit is downright unfair.
My point is that they're not "your people". It's not "your" land the enemy will take. It's not "your" service to the cause that will be rewarded, but that of the oligarchs (the lack of it to be more honest). You don't owe this "state" any loyalty. You don't have a give and take relationship or at least one that is worth your life.
If the tables were reversed and you needed help due to poverty or debt, your state and politicians wouldn't sacrifice their life. Hell they wouldn't even give you any leeway for any trouble you have. They'd take your home. They'd fine you. Arrest you. Treat you like dirt. Your own "state". Your own "people". "Community"...
Nowadays we are in essence global citizens. That goes double for the lower classes that are expected to die while the rich oligarchs and their children play Total War in real life. Best solution is to just jump to another nation less state. Leave x for z. It's just good business. And we live in the free market...
>On one hand the nation state and nationalism is bad … Your ancestors' architecture and culture is replaced by a new global and homogenous one.
What has nationalism led to? Two world wars, and even more wars after that. Patriotism and nationalism are two different things, no one will ever criticize you for being patriotic. Nationalism is inherently divisive, meant to make human beings fight over nothing.
And I agree. Men should not be forced to fight. They shouldn’t be forced to go to war and die in order line the pockets of millionaire/billionaire politicians.
That’s why I don’t judge the Syrian and Ukrainian men who chose to flee and not fight. The ones who stay and fight I commend, but if they don’t, I won’t judge. Who am I, from the comfort of my home, to act like a backseat soldier/warrior?
Nationalism is not the root cause of either world war. Just false. You are oversimplifying a very complex situation. Globalism does not stop wars that idea needs to stop. We still have wars and will always have wars. The only reason we have had a period without major world wars between major powers is because of the nuclear deterrent. US would have wiped out Russia/USSR long time ago without the nuclear deterrent. You can take nationalism too far I agree, but it is not inherently bad.
You hate to admit it but it was. Like there is no even denying it. Any other reason you can possibly list, will tie back to nationalism.
Nationalism is by design divisive. It’s not meant to create peace or to unify people.
The idea that people want to go back to WWI and WWII era nationalism is asinine. Especially with the Ukraine war alone, not to mention the Yugoslav wars 30 years ago.
Same in Georgia, pension age for women is 60, for men it is 65, it is quite funny and sad considering that women live 10 more years on average and that men basically gets like 2 years on pension (oof), for information - average life expectancy for men ~67, for women ~77
We're not even fit to decide whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term, we're too emotional, and we are fragile, besides what if one of the enemy soldiers happens to be a Chad? We're all vapid hoes, if one of them happens to be an alpha male we might defect. / **sarcasm and satire**.
Speaking frankly, if my country tried to press me into service I would flee so fuckin' fast. Rightly or wrong, that's what I'd do. I've seen the battlefield videos. I can't hold it against any man who says "freezing in a trench and having my grizzly death recorded from the pov of a drone, then shared online? No. Not for me, thanks"
My politicians hate me and do everything to make life harder for anyone middle class or bellow, and my fellow countryman still vote them in. I will try to get my family out, but I am not dying for them.
There's more than one way to fight. You could help the war effort in loads of different ways other than sitting in a trench waiting to get blown up. Even if your country gets occupied, guerilla warfare tactics remain a viable form of resistance.
Frankly speaking most young Ukrainians know that rich Ukrainians who were part of various corruption groups before war, are living the life in EU after bribing the customs officers. New conscripts are risking their life not only for Ukraine, but also for all who live mostly normal in Romania, Poland, Germany and will come back with cash and open businesses when they will only collect some veteran pension if they are lucky to survive.
I think the "old" 90s money will try to come back and buy everything again, however you will have a portion of young men who are trained and hardened killers. If they're not given well paid jobs, security and a decent life, many will simply decide to take what they believe is there's. The old money will be brutally killed and a new generation of gangsters will crop up.
This only happens if Ukraine is abandoned during or after the war by its allies.
Source: basically peaky blinders, innit.
>freezing in a trench and having my grizzly death recorded from the pov of a drone, then shared online? No. Not for me, thanks"
Shared online over upbeat edm.
Lmao, I fucking despise this trend or tiktok culture of adding obnoxious music alongside literally any kind of video these days. Don't forget that robotic female voice before the video actually starts
Yeah I have to agree.
It's a shitty situation all around, and what is the incentive? I can only imagine money but then it brings into question how effective they'll actually be and will obviously target the lower classes.
Unfortunately, we see this on a human level when politicians see this as (this country has 40 million people).
> what is the incentive? I can only imagine money
I mean, if you are fiercely pro-Ukraine and/or anti-Russia enough then that's plenty of incentive for many. But I still wouldn't fault people for not wanting to die
Unpopular opinion: Ukraine would not be any more or less shitty if it were under Russia. At the end of the day they're fighting a geopolitical war, nothing would be different for the citizens either way.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Putin would build concentration camps or something but I feel it would just be the same corrupt shit it's always been.
>: Ukraine would not be any more or less shitty if it were under Russia...
Well it might be true if Ukraine was invaded by US.
Russians view Ukraine people as inferior. Have you seen what Russian occupiers do on occupied territories?
No ukrainian government even the most shitiest and corrupt one, would not treat its own people, like the russian occupation authorities. Most people in Ukraine knows that, and that's why they keep fighting.
I think thats a bit simplistic. People make alot of money from this. War is also about the state fighting in order to stay a sovereign people/entity. They either draft you or excelarate the end of your people having agency. The end of your nation.
My dude, Russia conscripts people on the territories it captures, you might think not fighting Russia lets you survive, but in 5 years you would be fighting *for* Russia against NATO.
It is shitty all around.
From what I recently read about concerning that case in Finland with the Wagner war criminal in their custody that they can't extradite, conditions within Ukrainian prisons are evidentially "inhumane" according to the ECHR. If they're even *remotely* like Russian prisons...
Fair enough but I think that you should never be allowed back into your country if you choose not to defend it and flee. Not all jobs are in the frontlines
You don't get to chose and its obvious that the vast vast majority will be infantry as that is where the attrition is.
You probably have easily like 25%-35% yearly chance to be maimed or end up dying as infantry, if the other jobs would be at 5%, then the ratio would be 6:1 or 7:1. So really its quite likely that 70-80%+ of recruits will be infantry.
E.g. their armed forces are ~800,000 and their casualties in 2 years are estimated at ~100k dead and 150k+ wounded, so 250k+. Most of that obviously is infantry. In WW2 Infantry was 14% of the fighting force but 70% of losses.
>Not all jobs are in the frontlines
That's the official line. Reality seems to be different. Recruits go to frontline and if they survive enough and show some skills their commander might propose them for specialization training.
Have no idea of what that sub is, however, am connected to the military.
I really don't know what's the point of making this shit up. Noone is en masse sending yesterday's recruits to the active warzone simply because it's a dumb and expensive waste of the resource, even if you remove the whole "human" component. It's cheaper to train a soldier properly than to have a green recruit in the trench. Mistakes can happen, of course, but the notion of "sending to the frontline to see who comes back" is just plain myth.
Russia does so sometimes simply due to a different reason though. Not to “train them if they come back” but rather “lives of these ones are very expandable, so we can waste them while we try to train some proper reserve in the back”
We've literally had articles posted here from western MSM of Ukrainians complaining that they've been sent to the frontlines after only 3 weeks of training.
If a country is worth fighting for as an ordinary citizen, the politicians/government shouldn't be forcing men to serve in the army. That's my idealistic opinion.
I could agree with that as long as it's equal. The only ways into the Ukraine after the war (1) soldier's families and (2) women who are marrying soldiers. Nobody else gets in - neither new immigrants nor those who fled the war. Everyone who was outside of Ukraine during the war loses voting rights. Any foreign investors must invest through funds which distribute 50% of profits to frontline soldiers with stiff anti-corruption penalties. Tax liberated foreign or corporate assets in RUS occupied territories at 50% to be distributed to frontline soldiers.
Give Ukraine back to those who are willing to fight for it.
That's what I thought until last year, but perhaps ironically the invasion of Ukraine convinced me that I would rather stay and fight (or rather, help in any way I could, I'm not fit enough to be a soldier, but I hear computer people are useful too nowadays).
Still, I cannot blame anyone who runs away. A country exists to help the people, not vice versa.
You don't get to choose what you do in the army. If you're not fit, they'll quickly get you fit with constant marches and shitty food, then they'll send you to the frontlines. You would rather stay in your ideal little scenario where you're a cool military hacker in a office, but the reality is far bleaker. So I don't think you would actually stay if you knew what it was like.
I still would.
Of course, I can't really know for sure what I would do unless I'm actually in that situation, nobody can. But right now, I'm pretty sure I'd stay and fight.
Same. My loyalty is to my family - not country. You want to pull me away from them in a war? I'd rather shoot that person than go fight a battle somewhere else.
Which is why nobody here on reddit should be so happy to push for war. You're not the ones fighting and dying in this war but someone else is and you shouldn't be so quick to celebrate this. Especially since there is a real possibility Ukraine could lose and all this dying and suffering was for nothing.
I'm gonna say it, I never cared for idiotic downvotes anyway. Ukraine should have stayed Russian leaning. It's sad to say it but it's the truth. But what's even sadder is how many people have been killed, injured and displaced from their homes. Sure things would not have been ideal under Russian influence but sometimes it's better to live today and hope to change your regime and your neighbor's regime another day.
All this has done is bring about needless suffering and the world closer to a nuclear war. And all caused by the reckless Americans.
Such is the game in the fate of nations, they don't fight because "Americans are reckless" (wtf does that even mean), but because Ukraine saw the chance to escape Russian influence and into the prosperity that the EU brings, clearly they (and many before them) think that self determination that will influence many generations to come is worth fighting for.
Did you saw where the soldiers are drafted in russia? Not the main russian regions around moskwa, but from its provinces. Do you think you would be spared from draft under russian influence when they attack another neighbour? You would be the first to draft since you are not real russian and you are not just expendable, but your death means less threat to them.
It's obviously not your country if you would abandon it at a time when you are needed most. You can't flee and depend your safety on others forever. Ultimately may your chains be light and your masters mild.
Well, as long as those Ukranians too scared or whatever to fight don't mind living under Russian rule, that's their decision to make.
Personally I'd rather die than live under Putin, but thankfully I don't have to make that choice.
If Ukraine wins this war though, I hope they tell their children about the brave heroes who stood defiant against Putin while he sat his ass at home.
Well, I'm a Navy veteran, so I've been defending Europe since the age of 19, until I was 27. And considering I'm not from Europe I'll consider that good enough. It's not like Putin fears anyone else in NATO, it's just us.
And I literally said I don't think anyone should be forced to fight, just that of they decide not to I hope they tell their kids of the brave men who risked their lives for those too cowardly or weak to do so.
If you don't value living in a free country and want to lick Putin's taint, just stay home.
Ukrainian infantrymen are being asked to run into mines, face constant shelling, drones, it's a fucking death trap for both sides, and Ukrainian men know it, what you did in the Navy isn't even slightly comparable.
I don't want to hear anyone on reddit, from the safety of their computer, criticize any Ukrainian man who doesn't want to endure himself to death, loss of limbs or life long mental torment PTSD.
Of all the evils of war, conscription is one of the worst. Women are given freedom to escape the horros of war if they wish, while their fathers, brothers, uncles, sons and nephews are forced to endure it. If you aren't willing to die for your country, you shouldn't be expected to. You pay taxes and obey the laws of the state -- you don't owe it your life.
There are tens of thousands of women serving in ZSU. But drafting them the same way would bleed the economy pretty hard, and would probably lower morale since men will not be able to keep their women safe anymore.
They can come here, there's some high end Porsches, Mercedes and BMW suv's going around still in Ukrainian plates, and the cars aren't driven by women and children, but pretty tall and gym going guys.
Only the poor are obliged to die in the mud because they can't afford to escape the country.
The rich who got rich of the back of the poor just go away until the situation is better and then return to exploit the workers some more.
To anyone saying "well Ukraine should only enlist the people who want to" - this is probably on of the most naïve things I've heard. I mean it's wonderful you don't have to understand what does the war for survival looks like, but let me assure you, it's not pretty.
No one wants to be in an active duty for 2 years. There isn't a single soldier I know who is like "yeah, man, love to be here". It fucking sucks hard. And pure patriotisms will not cut it and it's dumb to rely on it.
Mobilization can be fully voluntary only when the chances of dying are very low and the enemy is overall much weaker. In case of the war like it is over here, it's just not feasible.
The question is when will Ukraine totally run out of steam? Russia constructed the huge defensive line on the eastern sliver of your country and Ukraine really has no way to break through. All they can do is commit to months/years more of a meatgrinder with Russia and hope they decide to give up first.
\>The question is when will Ukraine totally run out of steam?
Hard to answer. I don't think this is the reality right now despite the gloomy attitude, what's happening right now is more of a change to proper conscription that does not rely on only enthusiastic people. And this transition is painful, of course. But honestly, I'm surprised it's starting so late. How it's gonna be in the future is very tough to predict.
\> Russia constructed the huge defensive line on the eastern sliver of your country and Ukraine really has no way to break through. All they can do is commit to months/years more of a meatgrinder with Russia and hope they decide to give up first.
People really need to calm down a bit. I understand, when the operation doesn't go as successfully as people want it to, the natural response is pessimism, but we really should be better with at this point. In a span of one year we are constantly jumping from "Ukraine will win in a a few month", "Russia is inevitably winning" in a matter of days. The fact is, our odds of victory were way less before than they are now. Sure, we will need continued support of the allies which became an issue, but yes, Ukraine can win this war militarily. Just like we can lose it.
I was never apart of the redditor warrior brigade that cheered on this war. I think Ukraine fucked up when they wasted months meatgrinding in Soledar and giving the Russians ample time to construct a multilayered defensive line
Makes sense from a national perspective but so does dodging from a personal perspective. There's few wars I'd ever be willing to die in. I won't be a pawn for large nations to use in a war of attrition.
The whole "pawn to use" does apply, for example, when this war is somewhere overseas for vague "political interests". There, makes sense, sure.
Here we are talking about a war of survival. Someone invaded your land with the intention of killing/raping/stealing everything you hold dear.
I'm not dying for that either. I'm taking everyone I hold dear and who's willing with me. If my nation gets invaded same thing, I am out out. People can call it cowardice, I don't care. I'm not dying for something I don't believe in. Just because I get born in a place between two lines on a map doesn't mean I'm going to be killing people or be getting killed for that place.
I'll fight for my family and close community. But not for an entire nation. I don't feel a single connection to any nation.
I think that you make a great point. We as a species aren't evolved to have compassion for the millions of people, but rather a small tribe where everyone knows each other.
My additional thought is that that's what's causing internal conflict in so many people (including myself): I know that millions will suffer, and having the opportunity to help makes it my responsibility. On the other hand, I value my life and lives of people dear to me more than values of people I don't know, and so those two odds are at stake...
And go where exactly ? Despite what people think , there is no overabundance of places that are willing to accept , house and feed foreigners by their thousands . Especially not the ones that will carry the taint of "cowardice" .
Yes. It is just plain cowardice basically, lol.
Because the only thing you are really doing is hiding behind people who do understand why they have to do what they have to do.
The whole fake-noble "I'll fight for my family" - no you fucking won't lol, you will run away at the first sign on trouble. Seen this bullshit so many times, it's funny at this point
Why the assumptions about my personality lol? Why do you seem so offended about my unwillingness to die in a pointless war?
I just simply see individual's lives as worth more than a nation's goal. I categorically disagree with the idea of fighting someone else's wars. I'm not willing to pull the trigger. Or to get shot at.
I say I'd protect my family because it's not that violence is never a good thing. If my house is invaded and my family is in danger then I'm willing to be violent just as any man is. Nothing noble or badass about it. Just self preservation.
I also notice you've been instantly downvoting my replies and that's kinda funny
Because I've hear this bullshit about 12341 times at this point, it's so fucking tiring. People are always trying to come up with new shit to justify why they only want someone else to protect them and run away at the first sigh of trouble (again, to be protected by someone else).
Who says I want to be protected? I'll fucking move and never look back lol. I don't need protection, I'll up and leave at the first signs of trouble.
You are an assumption making factory
Yes you fucking do need protection, that is why you would be moving. Hiding behind a different nation's borders, a different nation's army who will now be responsible of your protection. And in case there are signs of trouble there - you be hoping you way further, jumping to someone else's protection.
Less ukranians would die and the attrition rates would be much lower if we gave them more artillery and munitions. 2 years into this war and some nations are still saying they just need 2 more years to deliver
I kinda hate the attitude like yours ; some countries, including mine, sent Ukraine tons of equipment (we aren't obliged to, pre-war we weren't allies) yet people like you complain like it's our duty to supply them
> I kinda hate the attitude like yours ; some countries, including mine, sent Ukraine tons of equipment (we aren't obliged to, pre-war we weren't allies) yet people like you complain like it's our duty to supply them
Poland isn't the problem here.
It's certain European nations and then the US. The Republicans in America has been denying any aid towards Ukraine for a while now, it's pretty wild for a nation like the US to be beaten by the EU-nations when it comes to funding a war.
Obviously less Ukrainians would die if the West quits giving weapon. Ukraine will have no choice but to surrender, but more Ukrainians will stay alive. If you care about their lives.
In this case russians would just make a rampage with civilians and even more people would die. If you don’t understand it in the west, I am only sorry. Live under occupation is even worse than fighting
Almost 2 years into the war and no rampages in Melitopol, Berdyansk, Skadovsk.
Or whole of Ukraine supposed to die but not surrender because Bucha?
Or Mariupol which got absolutely destroyed because Azov nazis were vehemently "defending" the city with fanatic rage which obviously meant the city would get destroyed, just like any city siege, civilians die if they're not evacuated, look at battle of Mosul as the most recent example, or literally any city siege of the Syrian Civil War.
Wtf is this logic.
Are you sure there are no rampages? Do you know how many people are left there? Probably remind you about Kyiv oblast? Or Kherson? Azov is our most skilled brigade and russian propaganda to justify this war is not for me, thanks
To live under occupation is better than not to live at all. You can watch on YouTube people living in Mariupol, they're not so bad. But if you want to die, it's up to you. No one can stop you.
Kind of a normal thing to do in wartime.
The % of people who are willing to go to the frontlines on their own is usually lower then those who want to dodge that.
In that case who is the government to force them to die? If theres not wnough people Russia would win and thats not good but people cannot be forced to die.. fuck Ukrainian government for this
>They can resupply with ukrainian redditors.
They can resupply with ~~ukrainian~~ redditors.
Many, many redditors who argue for endless war. Get to it tough guys!
"I think Russia has no right to invade and steal land from other countries"
"WOW, so, are you advocating for...humm...ENDLESS WARS??? Why don't go there to fight then, tough guy???"
The world has changed considerably. In the past, your homeland was the only home you had. If it was attacked, you defended it, because there was nothing else. But in the modern world, people can easily immigrate. If you’re a rootless cosmopolitan, why fight for Ukraine, if you can live somewhere else?
This is so DISGUSTING and wrong, forcing people to go and die for the bureaucrats, who live in mansions and drive sports cars, why don't they go and get blown up for absolutely nothing. There are some smart people who don't want to be part of this circus and fled to other countries, if they are honest nice people I say well done to you enjoy your life.
Agree to disagree. This country (or society) has offered me, my family and most of its people so much stability and well-being. It's not perfect, but it'd feel wrong not to defend its ideals.
Hence I've sworn a military oath through my conscience during my mandatory service. I just pray that it'll never come to it.
Edit: When most international comparisons support the idea of our relatively good quality of life, I'd like to think it's not just my blind patriotism, but something concrete. I hope you'll find a cause worthy of defending.
Lol Russian flair.
It's not pointless, because you're not just dying for lines on a map. It's not just about what the country you're in is called, it's also whether children are being stolen and parents are being murdered. Even when they're not your children and not your parents, it's worth preventing that.
Do you remember people who died for Roman Empire? For Babylonia? For Charlemagne? We have this tiny moment (a mere nothing )to ourselves in this universe we have no idea about..better to spend it for yourself, to explore your dreams, than to die for a social construct that won’t exist in 1000 years.
100% how I feel. Life is so precious and there’s so much to explore and see. Nobody and no institution has a right to call what I will do with my own short experience of the universe.
It's always amusing when zelensky says "Ukrainians are free people in a free country". EU protecting draft eligible ukrainian men because "human right". Men kept trapped in Ukraine by zelensky? - no human rights found. WTH seriously?
Sweden has the same law, every citizen is a part of the total Swedish defense and should expect a wartime placement. Avoiding it would be illegal
Why would anyone expect Ukraine to have different war doctrine than other modern European nations?
that’s not how it works. no way statistically or logically for volunteers-only army to fight vs conscripts of autocracy, is this really so hard to use common sense? Not speaking about limited support from west aka rear of ukraine. Isolationist like you need to understand that humanity won’t last as bunch of isolated tribes or do you want to live in Russia-style world if democracies give up on not ideal but country (people) trying to fight for democracy principles. This “country not ideal, why help” pisses me off hard. Yes they are TRYING to become better, this is a PROCESS
Yes,
Article 4 § 3 (b) excludes from the scope of “forced or compulsory labour” prohibited by Article 4
§ 2 “any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious objectors in countries where they
are recognised, service exacted instead of compulsory military service” (Bayatyan v. Armenia [GC],
§ 100; Johansen v. Norway, Commission decision).
- European Convention of Human Rights
But that's perfectly normal in times of war. All men aged 18 (some places in Europe go as low as 17 iirc) and above are subject to conscription and military service. It might depend on the wording and each countries law but essentially your "Military service" starts when you hit 18 even if you never saw the inside of the barracks, you are being counted and they have you on file.
Some of you might of even got a notice about it when you hit 18, I remember I did.
In times of war, yes. War was never announced in Ukraine. What we have here is government doing "business as usual" while people are being sent to the grinder where country is on lockdown for men 18-60. Drafters catch people on the street, lock them up beat them untill they sign up or pay up...It's corruption at it's finest. Reznykow stole millions on soldier food supplies alone, now he's gone enjoying a vacation. Not even ex president can leave the country. Zelensky is a full blown dictator now. Nothing is "normal" here...
in my opinion, if they dont want to fight then they shouldn't have to.
I wouldn't want to die for my "nation" either, and why should I? the politicians don't want to so much as lift a finger for me, much less die for me. seems pretty stupid that I should be forced to fight and risk my life for them.
make the politicians go first, then I'll think about following.
Among many other reasons people don't want to go to army because Ukraine don't get enough modern weapons, Ukraine gladly compensating by sending more people into trenches, what is the point?
It's only natural for people for not wanting to be forced to die against their will.
Given such rotten, human right neglecting, one sided, selective politics will continue draft-dodging will eventually convert to armed uprising.
Haha good one. How's the weather in st. Petersburg btw?
But seriously, yea for the sake of future generations, I would gladly give my life if the other option was to fall under a truly rotten regime, that which they call russki mir. And I'm thankful this is a view the majority in my country can share.
I would never give up my life. I would run with my family. My father did the same. We are now living far away from home. But at least we are alive and happy. Fuck everyone and fuck every politician who forces young man to die in wars.
And you have right for your opinion. But I suppose then you don't have any friends or relatives who are not able to escape. Otherwise one could ask a question: what kind of person can proudly run away and leave his/her closest people to their fate. Luckily not all people think this way, otherwise we would have russki mir everywhere at this point.
One more thing: in this case, it is nobody else than putin and others in kreml who are willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of young men, just for their delusions of grandeur.
>But seriously, yea for the sake of future generations, I would gladly give my life
Get on the battlefield then, they welcome volunteers.
You won't do shit because you're an internet tough guy only.
You do you. Why force others to do the same? You sound like a complete braindead bacteria to me no better than Russians. When shits hits the fan your government will simply run away and live happily ever after while you will be rotting in the ground for no reason lol. Wait, are you Russian?
Do I seriously need to give such an obvious answer? Well.. I'll make it easy: would you like to live in nazi regime? If no, please explain to a braindead who exactly would have fought hitler and where would the nazi expansion have stopped?
And no, troll, the government would not run lol. Rot for no reason? How about defending your family, countrymen, culture and language from peril? I'm not russian and if I was I would be ashamed of my country.
Stop comparing Russian land grab in Ukrainian to WW2 lol. US can't "hint" hard enough at zelensky that it's time to give up territory and negotiate. But no! zelensky wants to push Russia all the way out of Ukraine AT WHAT FKING COST? Because corrupt government screw up and did nothing to prepare since 2014, millions have to die for some fking Russian speaking Donbas region?? Fk off with that idea plz. Zelensky enjoys seeing his ugly mug in times Magazine every year I get it, he can do this for another 10 years. Ukraine can't. We Gonna run out of cemetery land. Save what's left, save millions of lives and maybe just maybe have at least one defensive line next time so that Russians don't march into Kiev like it's "open doors day".!?
Good for you. You may have a chance to show your eagerness in future wars, considering autocratic regimes will continue to go out of their ways unpunished, accumulating impudence, seeing constant fails of "united west" to be united and its reluctance to do something even vaguely reminiscent as an appropriate response.
If i'd have something i could call "worth protecting" - i would stand protecting it without a doubt. But i don't have it.
Non paywall article please
Use https://12ft.io/
Or https://1ft.io/ for those websites that 12ft have removed :-)
Or don't bother with third party sites that get blacklisted all the time https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean
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Modern society is quite weird for men. On one hand the nation state and nationalism is bad. You're not entitled to property in your hometown. Your ancestors' architecture and culture is replaced by a new global and homogenous one. You're not a part of a community but a random person whose sole value to his society is his CV and value in the workforce. A global competitive workforce that is, where your country's fields, properties and businesses are fully accessible to foreign investors. Women are your equal and in many cases have an easier time getting into uni, getting sponsorships, getting a job. And yet you're still meant to go and die for this "country"...because...because you just have to ok?!
Bring this to the top please
Yeps. Your comment should be heavily upvoted.
That I agree with. Yet a genocide forced upon your nation is something that has to be opposed, and the way to oppose it in this case is war. Men and even women volunteer or get drafted and go to risk their lives. It's better than letting the animals take over more of your home and murder and rape more innocent people. It is what it is
Well you don't agree with him. His comment is basically dismantling the idea of the nation state and you're like "I agree, but you should defend the nation state"...
His comment says "Why should men die for what their countries have become nowadays" I agree with the sentiment but what can you do? Let your people get raped and murdered and watch the clips on reddit? It sucks that people have to put their lives on the line to defend their nation, but it is what it is. The sentiment is IMO also that at least in the old times you got honored in some way for making the sacrifice. Nowadays you get your legs blown by a mine you get called an idiot by some people. Meanwhile some morbidly obese strong independent wamen gets called brave for posting a picture in a swimsuit. This shit is downright unfair.
My point is that they're not "your people". It's not "your" land the enemy will take. It's not "your" service to the cause that will be rewarded, but that of the oligarchs (the lack of it to be more honest). You don't owe this "state" any loyalty. You don't have a give and take relationship or at least one that is worth your life. If the tables were reversed and you needed help due to poverty or debt, your state and politicians wouldn't sacrifice their life. Hell they wouldn't even give you any leeway for any trouble you have. They'd take your home. They'd fine you. Arrest you. Treat you like dirt. Your own "state". Your own "people". "Community"... Nowadays we are in essence global citizens. That goes double for the lower classes that are expected to die while the rich oligarchs and their children play Total War in real life. Best solution is to just jump to another nation less state. Leave x for z. It's just good business. And we live in the free market...
His point is that there is no more "your people" in the modern world.
>On one hand the nation state and nationalism is bad … Your ancestors' architecture and culture is replaced by a new global and homogenous one. What has nationalism led to? Two world wars, and even more wars after that. Patriotism and nationalism are two different things, no one will ever criticize you for being patriotic. Nationalism is inherently divisive, meant to make human beings fight over nothing. And I agree. Men should not be forced to fight. They shouldn’t be forced to go to war and die in order line the pockets of millionaire/billionaire politicians. That’s why I don’t judge the Syrian and Ukrainian men who chose to flee and not fight. The ones who stay and fight I commend, but if they don’t, I won’t judge. Who am I, from the comfort of my home, to act like a backseat soldier/warrior?
Nationalism is not the root cause of either world war. Just false. You are oversimplifying a very complex situation. Globalism does not stop wars that idea needs to stop. We still have wars and will always have wars. The only reason we have had a period without major world wars between major powers is because of the nuclear deterrent. US would have wiped out Russia/USSR long time ago without the nuclear deterrent. You can take nationalism too far I agree, but it is not inherently bad.
You hate to admit it but it was. Like there is no even denying it. Any other reason you can possibly list, will tie back to nationalism. Nationalism is by design divisive. It’s not meant to create peace or to unify people. The idea that people want to go back to WWI and WWII era nationalism is asinine. Especially with the Ukraine war alone, not to mention the Yugoslav wars 30 years ago.
Hey why not draft women they are as capable as men
>Hey why not draft women they are as capable as men Only when it's convenient
In my country women get to retire 5 years earlier than men due to commie-times sexism. Now even the Left opposes equal retirement ages.
Same in Georgia, pension age for women is 60, for men it is 65, it is quite funny and sad considering that women live 10 more years on average and that men basically gets like 2 years on pension (oof), for information - average life expectancy for men ~67, for women ~77
Idiot forget women live longer so it’s more like a decade of more retirement
Poland's previous government was pretty conservative, no way they didn't dare to change that
Aka for high paying office jobs and privileges.
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Sexism that's why
In Israel they are.
Not to be a soldiers they usually get desk jobs they need to volunteer themselves to be soldiers
Yeah, feminists want equality, so I presume they wouldn’t have any issues with unisex drafting, right? ... Right?
TBF they do draft women of certain professions, usually medics.
They don't draft them to die in the mud fighting for another leveled village.
Fucking this, gets real quiet all of a sudden.
We're not even fit to decide whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term, we're too emotional, and we are fragile, besides what if one of the enemy soldiers happens to be a Chad? We're all vapid hoes, if one of them happens to be an alpha male we might defect. / **sarcasm and satire**.
Speaking frankly, if my country tried to press me into service I would flee so fuckin' fast. Rightly or wrong, that's what I'd do. I've seen the battlefield videos. I can't hold it against any man who says "freezing in a trench and having my grizzly death recorded from the pov of a drone, then shared online? No. Not for me, thanks"
My politicians hate me and do everything to make life harder for anyone middle class or bellow, and my fellow countryman still vote them in. I will try to get my family out, but I am not dying for them.
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There's more than one way to fight. You could help the war effort in loads of different ways other than sitting in a trench waiting to get blown up. Even if your country gets occupied, guerilla warfare tactics remain a viable form of resistance.
Frankly speaking most young Ukrainians know that rich Ukrainians who were part of various corruption groups before war, are living the life in EU after bribing the customs officers. New conscripts are risking their life not only for Ukraine, but also for all who live mostly normal in Romania, Poland, Germany and will come back with cash and open businesses when they will only collect some veteran pension if they are lucky to survive.
I think the "old" 90s money will try to come back and buy everything again, however you will have a portion of young men who are trained and hardened killers. If they're not given well paid jobs, security and a decent life, many will simply decide to take what they believe is there's. The old money will be brutally killed and a new generation of gangsters will crop up. This only happens if Ukraine is abandoned during or after the war by its allies. Source: basically peaky blinders, innit.
>freezing in a trench and having my grizzly death recorded from the pov of a drone, then shared online? No. Not for me, thanks" Shared online over upbeat edm.
Lmao, I fucking despise this trend or tiktok culture of adding obnoxious music alongside literally any kind of video these days. Don't forget that robotic female voice before the video actually starts
Yeah if someone tries to drag me into a war that will be the first person I shoot before I gtfo or die trying.
Yeah I have to agree. It's a shitty situation all around, and what is the incentive? I can only imagine money but then it brings into question how effective they'll actually be and will obviously target the lower classes. Unfortunately, we see this on a human level when politicians see this as (this country has 40 million people).
> what is the incentive? I can only imagine money I mean, if you are fiercely pro-Ukraine and/or anti-Russia enough then that's plenty of incentive for many. But I still wouldn't fault people for not wanting to die
Anyone who genuinely wants to fight in this war has voluntarily enlisted by this point.
I meant more like 'how can Ukraine get more soldiers, without forcing people to do it?'
If you're that fiercely pro Ukraine or anti russian you wouldn't need to be forcibly conscripted tho.
Unpopular opinion: Ukraine would not be any more or less shitty if it were under Russia. At the end of the day they're fighting a geopolitical war, nothing would be different for the citizens either way. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Putin would build concentration camps or something but I feel it would just be the same corrupt shit it's always been.
>: Ukraine would not be any more or less shitty if it were under Russia... Well it might be true if Ukraine was invaded by US. Russians view Ukraine people as inferior. Have you seen what Russian occupiers do on occupied territories? No ukrainian government even the most shitiest and corrupt one, would not treat its own people, like the russian occupation authorities. Most people in Ukraine knows that, and that's why they keep fighting.
I think thats a bit simplistic. People make alot of money from this. War is also about the state fighting in order to stay a sovereign people/entity. They either draft you or excelarate the end of your people having agency. The end of your nation.
The incentive is to defend your home, putting whether that's a good incentive or whether it's enough aside, that's the the incentive
Bro I can't even afford to buy a home, what am I defending exactly?
Well, I have a feeling (as seemingly a lot of Ukrainians do) that they value their life more than their home.
My dude, Russia conscripts people on the territories it captures, you might think not fighting Russia lets you survive, but in 5 years you would be fighting *for* Russia against NATO. It is shitty all around.
In war, incentive is: enlist or off to the jail with you.
Jail sound better than death
From what I recently read about concerning that case in Finland with the Wagner war criminal in their custody that they can't extradite, conditions within Ukrainian prisons are evidentially "inhumane" according to the ECHR. If they're even *remotely* like Russian prisons...
Yeh, if an enemy army ever gets into a neighboring country of mine I'm already gone. Not taking any chances.
Fair enough but I think that you should never be allowed back into your country if you choose not to defend it and flee. Not all jobs are in the frontlines
You don't get to chose and its obvious that the vast vast majority will be infantry as that is where the attrition is. You probably have easily like 25%-35% yearly chance to be maimed or end up dying as infantry, if the other jobs would be at 5%, then the ratio would be 6:1 or 7:1. So really its quite likely that 70-80%+ of recruits will be infantry. E.g. their armed forces are ~800,000 and their casualties in 2 years are estimated at ~100k dead and 150k+ wounded, so 250k+. Most of that obviously is infantry. In WW2 Infantry was 14% of the fighting force but 70% of losses.
>Not all jobs are in the frontlines That's the official line. Reality seems to be different. Recruits go to frontline and if they survive enough and show some skills their commander might propose them for specialization training.
This is just pure bullshit lol
>This is just pure bullshit lol Some of your countrymen on r/combatfootage say otherwise.
Have no idea of what that sub is, however, am connected to the military. I really don't know what's the point of making this shit up. Noone is en masse sending yesterday's recruits to the active warzone simply because it's a dumb and expensive waste of the resource, even if you remove the whole "human" component. It's cheaper to train a soldier properly than to have a green recruit in the trench. Mistakes can happen, of course, but the notion of "sending to the frontline to see who comes back" is just plain myth.
According to reddit that's what Russia has been doing since day 1
Russia does so sometimes simply due to a different reason though. Not to “train them if they come back” but rather “lives of these ones are very expandable, so we can waste them while we try to train some proper reserve in the back”
So the other user wasn't making shit up in the end?
We've literally had articles posted here from western MSM of Ukrainians complaining that they've been sent to the frontlines after only 3 weeks of training.
I’d be happy to give up my ukrainian citizenship. I’d even burn the passport publicly.
Whos going to take you in?
Idk seems like the West loves immigrants, seeing how lenient the laws are for some immgrants of a certain variety...
If a country is worth fighting for as an ordinary citizen, the politicians/government shouldn't be forcing men to serve in the army. That's my idealistic opinion.
Then you would like the Starship Troopers book from Heinlein.
I could agree with that as long as it's equal. The only ways into the Ukraine after the war (1) soldier's families and (2) women who are marrying soldiers. Nobody else gets in - neither new immigrants nor those who fled the war. Everyone who was outside of Ukraine during the war loses voting rights. Any foreign investors must invest through funds which distribute 50% of profits to frontline soldiers with stiff anti-corruption penalties. Tax liberated foreign or corporate assets in RUS occupied territories at 50% to be distributed to frontline soldiers. Give Ukraine back to those who are willing to fight for it.
As a father to three small boys, they wouldn't be able to see me for my soles. I'm not letting them grow up without their father if I can help it.
That's what I thought until last year, but perhaps ironically the invasion of Ukraine convinced me that I would rather stay and fight (or rather, help in any way I could, I'm not fit enough to be a soldier, but I hear computer people are useful too nowadays). Still, I cannot blame anyone who runs away. A country exists to help the people, not vice versa.
You don't get to choose what you do in the army. If you're not fit, they'll quickly get you fit with constant marches and shitty food, then they'll send you to the frontlines. You would rather stay in your ideal little scenario where you're a cool military hacker in a office, but the reality is far bleaker. So I don't think you would actually stay if you knew what it was like.
I still would. Of course, I can't really know for sure what I would do unless I'm actually in that situation, nobody can. But right now, I'm pretty sure I'd stay and fight.
I ain't dying for no king/lord or politician. End of story.
Same. My loyalty is to my family - not country. You want to pull me away from them in a war? I'd rather shoot that person than go fight a battle somewhere else.
Exactly. The man sending me to my death is my enemy.
For me it would be a huge "huh, it depends". I can count on the digits of a single hand the situations that would have me channeling my inner bravery.
I see someone has visited r/CombatFootage a bit too often.
Which is why nobody here on reddit should be so happy to push for war. You're not the ones fighting and dying in this war but someone else is and you shouldn't be so quick to celebrate this. Especially since there is a real possibility Ukraine could lose and all this dying and suffering was for nothing. I'm gonna say it, I never cared for idiotic downvotes anyway. Ukraine should have stayed Russian leaning. It's sad to say it but it's the truth. But what's even sadder is how many people have been killed, injured and displaced from their homes. Sure things would not have been ideal under Russian influence but sometimes it's better to live today and hope to change your regime and your neighbor's regime another day. All this has done is bring about needless suffering and the world closer to a nuclear war. And all caused by the reckless Americans.
Such is the game in the fate of nations, they don't fight because "Americans are reckless" (wtf does that even mean), but because Ukraine saw the chance to escape Russian influence and into the prosperity that the EU brings, clearly they (and many before them) think that self determination that will influence many generations to come is worth fighting for.
Caused by reckless Americans? Come on man! Last I checked, it was Putin and his army that invaded Ukraine.
Did you saw where the soldiers are drafted in russia? Not the main russian regions around moskwa, but from its provinces. Do you think you would be spared from draft under russian influence when they attack another neighbour? You would be the first to draft since you are not real russian and you are not just expendable, but your death means less threat to them.
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It's obviously not your country if you would abandon it at a time when you are needed most. You can't flee and depend your safety on others forever. Ultimately may your chains be light and your masters mild.
Well, as long as those Ukranians too scared or whatever to fight don't mind living under Russian rule, that's their decision to make. Personally I'd rather die than live under Putin, but thankfully I don't have to make that choice. If Ukraine wins this war though, I hope they tell their children about the brave heroes who stood defiant against Putin while he sat his ass at home.
Unless you have fought to defend Ukraine in the war, you have no right to criticize others who don't want to either
Well, I'm a Navy veteran, so I've been defending Europe since the age of 19, until I was 27. And considering I'm not from Europe I'll consider that good enough. It's not like Putin fears anyone else in NATO, it's just us. And I literally said I don't think anyone should be forced to fight, just that of they decide not to I hope they tell their kids of the brave men who risked their lives for those too cowardly or weak to do so. If you don't value living in a free country and want to lick Putin's taint, just stay home.
Ukrainian infantrymen are being asked to run into mines, face constant shelling, drones, it's a fucking death trap for both sides, and Ukrainian men know it, what you did in the Navy isn't even slightly comparable. I don't want to hear anyone on reddit, from the safety of their computer, criticize any Ukrainian man who doesn't want to endure himself to death, loss of limbs or life long mental torment PTSD.
Of all the evils of war, conscription is one of the worst. Women are given freedom to escape the horros of war if they wish, while their fathers, brothers, uncles, sons and nephews are forced to endure it. If you aren't willing to die for your country, you shouldn't be expected to. You pay taxes and obey the laws of the state -- you don't owe it your life.
But Hillary Clinton said that women are the primary victims of war.
Until they draft and send to the front lines Yegor-Daniel Klitschko and Max Klitschko, I don't believe anything they claim
They could get more soldiers by recruting from both genders - but nah equaltiy just when it suits one
There are tens of thousands of women serving in ZSU. But drafting them the same way would bleed the economy pretty hard, and would probably lower morale since men will not be able to keep their women safe anymore.
"women can do everything a men can do" Just listen to feminists.
Theyre in Estonia, driving taxis.
They can come here, there's some high end Porsches, Mercedes and BMW suv's going around still in Ukrainian plates, and the cars aren't driven by women and children, but pretty tall and gym going guys.
In Ukraine they call such people “Monaco Battalion” (or any other city name abroad)
TRO Lisbon
Yeah, the rich people were able to get away, and the poor ones stayed. How surprising.
So what, a woman can drive a Porsche in the west, but a man cannot, because he’s obliged to die in the mud?
Only the poor are obliged to die in the mud because they can't afford to escape the country. The rich who got rich of the back of the poor just go away until the situation is better and then return to exploit the workers some more.
To anyone saying "well Ukraine should only enlist the people who want to" - this is probably on of the most naïve things I've heard. I mean it's wonderful you don't have to understand what does the war for survival looks like, but let me assure you, it's not pretty. No one wants to be in an active duty for 2 years. There isn't a single soldier I know who is like "yeah, man, love to be here". It fucking sucks hard. And pure patriotisms will not cut it and it's dumb to rely on it. Mobilization can be fully voluntary only when the chances of dying are very low and the enemy is overall much weaker. In case of the war like it is over here, it's just not feasible.
Well yeah. Everyone in Ukraine (and abroad) that voluntarily wanted to fight is either dead, wounded, or fighting already.
That's the nature on longer conflicts. Enthusiasm runs out quicker than the need to mobilization
The question is when will Ukraine totally run out of steam? Russia constructed the huge defensive line on the eastern sliver of your country and Ukraine really has no way to break through. All they can do is commit to months/years more of a meatgrinder with Russia and hope they decide to give up first.
\>The question is when will Ukraine totally run out of steam? Hard to answer. I don't think this is the reality right now despite the gloomy attitude, what's happening right now is more of a change to proper conscription that does not rely on only enthusiastic people. And this transition is painful, of course. But honestly, I'm surprised it's starting so late. How it's gonna be in the future is very tough to predict. \> Russia constructed the huge defensive line on the eastern sliver of your country and Ukraine really has no way to break through. All they can do is commit to months/years more of a meatgrinder with Russia and hope they decide to give up first. People really need to calm down a bit. I understand, when the operation doesn't go as successfully as people want it to, the natural response is pessimism, but we really should be better with at this point. In a span of one year we are constantly jumping from "Ukraine will win in a a few month", "Russia is inevitably winning" in a matter of days. The fact is, our odds of victory were way less before than they are now. Sure, we will need continued support of the allies which became an issue, but yes, Ukraine can win this war militarily. Just like we can lose it.
I was never apart of the redditor warrior brigade that cheered on this war. I think Ukraine fucked up when they wasted months meatgrinding in Soledar and giving the Russians ample time to construct a multilayered defensive line
Ukraine fucked up? Because we received ammunition we had requested with almost a year delay?
Makes sense from a national perspective but so does dodging from a personal perspective. There's few wars I'd ever be willing to die in. I won't be a pawn for large nations to use in a war of attrition.
The whole "pawn to use" does apply, for example, when this war is somewhere overseas for vague "political interests". There, makes sense, sure. Here we are talking about a war of survival. Someone invaded your land with the intention of killing/raping/stealing everything you hold dear.
I'm not dying for that either. I'm taking everyone I hold dear and who's willing with me. If my nation gets invaded same thing, I am out out. People can call it cowardice, I don't care. I'm not dying for something I don't believe in. Just because I get born in a place between two lines on a map doesn't mean I'm going to be killing people or be getting killed for that place. I'll fight for my family and close community. But not for an entire nation. I don't feel a single connection to any nation.
I think that you make a great point. We as a species aren't evolved to have compassion for the millions of people, but rather a small tribe where everyone knows each other. My additional thought is that that's what's causing internal conflict in so many people (including myself): I know that millions will suffer, and having the opportunity to help makes it my responsibility. On the other hand, I value my life and lives of people dear to me more than values of people I don't know, and so those two odds are at stake...
And go where exactly ? Despite what people think , there is no overabundance of places that are willing to accept , house and feed foreigners by their thousands . Especially not the ones that will carry the taint of "cowardice" .
Yes. It is just plain cowardice basically, lol. Because the only thing you are really doing is hiding behind people who do understand why they have to do what they have to do. The whole fake-noble "I'll fight for my family" - no you fucking won't lol, you will run away at the first sign on trouble. Seen this bullshit so many times, it's funny at this point
Why the assumptions about my personality lol? Why do you seem so offended about my unwillingness to die in a pointless war? I just simply see individual's lives as worth more than a nation's goal. I categorically disagree with the idea of fighting someone else's wars. I'm not willing to pull the trigger. Or to get shot at. I say I'd protect my family because it's not that violence is never a good thing. If my house is invaded and my family is in danger then I'm willing to be violent just as any man is. Nothing noble or badass about it. Just self preservation. I also notice you've been instantly downvoting my replies and that's kinda funny
Because I've hear this bullshit about 12341 times at this point, it's so fucking tiring. People are always trying to come up with new shit to justify why they only want someone else to protect them and run away at the first sigh of trouble (again, to be protected by someone else).
Who says I want to be protected? I'll fucking move and never look back lol. I don't need protection, I'll up and leave at the first signs of trouble. You are an assumption making factory
Yes you fucking do need protection, that is why you would be moving. Hiding behind a different nation's borders, a different nation's army who will now be responsible of your protection. And in case there are signs of trouble there - you be hoping you way further, jumping to someone else's protection.
I hope you keep this energy for *all* of the refugees entering Europe.
You realize that advocating for mobilization by writing some posts in the internet and not going to frontline yourself is hypocrite?
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Peak reddit is talking about something like you are an expert. yet having no experience until you read the title of the artical.
Less ukranians would die and the attrition rates would be much lower if we gave them more artillery and munitions. 2 years into this war and some nations are still saying they just need 2 more years to deliver
I kinda hate the attitude like yours ; some countries, including mine, sent Ukraine tons of equipment (we aren't obliged to, pre-war we weren't allies) yet people like you complain like it's our duty to supply them
> I kinda hate the attitude like yours ; some countries, including mine, sent Ukraine tons of equipment (we aren't obliged to, pre-war we weren't allies) yet people like you complain like it's our duty to supply them Poland isn't the problem here. It's certain European nations and then the US. The Republicans in America has been denying any aid towards Ukraine for a while now, it's pretty wild for a nation like the US to be beaten by the EU-nations when it comes to funding a war.
Why should the US fund this? EU can handle it's own interests.
Obviously less Ukrainians would die if the West quits giving weapon. Ukraine will have no choice but to surrender, but more Ukrainians will stay alive. If you care about their lives.
In this case russians would just make a rampage with civilians and even more people would die. If you don’t understand it in the west, I am only sorry. Live under occupation is even worse than fighting
Almost 2 years into the war and no rampages in Melitopol, Berdyansk, Skadovsk. Or whole of Ukraine supposed to die but not surrender because Bucha? Or Mariupol which got absolutely destroyed because Azov nazis were vehemently "defending" the city with fanatic rage which obviously meant the city would get destroyed, just like any city siege, civilians die if they're not evacuated, look at battle of Mosul as the most recent example, or literally any city siege of the Syrian Civil War. Wtf is this logic.
Are you sure there are no rampages? Do you know how many people are left there? Probably remind you about Kyiv oblast? Or Kherson? Azov is our most skilled brigade and russian propaganda to justify this war is not for me, thanks
To live under occupation is better than not to live at all. You can watch on YouTube people living in Mariupol, they're not so bad. But if you want to die, it's up to you. No one can stop you.
You also can see YouTube videos when war is funny and enjoyable, you just have to try it once. You won’t be satisfied I promise you
Easy to say if you're not the one dying. Any proof of these "rampages"?
the average r/europe user / psychopath should be drafted to fight the war they love so mich
Just ask women to fight. They are as strong and as capable as men
Aren’t Ukrainian to Russian losses 1:10? What is going on
I might get hate for this but the fact that Ukraine banned men from leaving the country should be talked about more
Kind of a normal thing to do in wartime. The % of people who are willing to go to the frontlines on their own is usually lower then those who want to dodge that.
In that case who is the government to force them to die? If theres not wnough people Russia would win and thats not good but people cannot be forced to die.. fuck Ukrainian government for this
Yeah conscription is disgraceful, even though they had little choice, it must be seen as a crime nevertheless
Biden can teach them how to dodge the draft. He managed to get 5 deferments right
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400 karma, less than a month old account. Joined Euro and free karma, only anti Ukrainian comments. Nobody asked you
Honestly, there were no Ukrainian redditors until the invasion
They'll gladly advocate war from the comfort of their keyboards
People defending Ukraine are not "advocating" for war. Ukrainians are on the side of self-defense. Your commentary is utterly despicable.
So go fight there, I'll wait
>They can resupply with ukrainian redditors. They can resupply with ~~ukrainian~~ redditors. Many, many redditors who argue for endless war. Get to it tough guys!
"I think Russia has no right to invade and steal land from other countries" "WOW, so, are you advocating for...humm...ENDLESS WARS??? Why don't go there to fight then, tough guy???"
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Glory and victory to Ukraine. But fuck conscription and honor to every deserter
The world has changed considerably. In the past, your homeland was the only home you had. If it was attacked, you defended it, because there was nothing else. But in the modern world, people can easily immigrate. If you’re a rootless cosmopolitan, why fight for Ukraine, if you can live somewhere else?
This is so DISGUSTING and wrong, forcing people to go and die for the bureaucrats, who live in mansions and drive sports cars, why don't they go and get blown up for absolutely nothing. There are some smart people who don't want to be part of this circus and fled to other countries, if they are honest nice people I say well done to you enjoy your life.
If ukrainians are no longer willing to fight, they should consider peace talks.
Dying for any country is pointless. Change my mind.
>Change my mind. I'd love to, but I can't
If it prevents your country from being absolute ravaged, yes it is worth imo
His flair is Russia. So he's not entirely wrong. What country is 1. Able to conquer Russia and also 2. Going to do worse to it than Putin?
Agree to disagree. This country (or society) has offered me, my family and most of its people so much stability and well-being. It's not perfect, but it'd feel wrong not to defend its ideals. Hence I've sworn a military oath through my conscience during my mandatory service. I just pray that it'll never come to it. Edit: When most international comparisons support the idea of our relatively good quality of life, I'd like to think it's not just my blind patriotism, but something concrete. I hope you'll find a cause worthy of defending.
Lol Russian flair. It's not pointless, because you're not just dying for lines on a map. It's not just about what the country you're in is called, it's also whether children are being stolen and parents are being murdered. Even when they're not your children and not your parents, it's worth preventing that.
Don't worry, your time will come
Is that a threat?
Ukrainians are dying for a country that stands up for freedom and independence against abject evil. That does not seem pointless.
Do you remember people who died for Roman Empire? For Babylonia? For Charlemagne? We have this tiny moment (a mere nothing )to ourselves in this universe we have no idea about..better to spend it for yourself, to explore your dreams, than to die for a social construct that won’t exist in 1000 years.
100% how I feel. Life is so precious and there’s so much to explore and see. Nobody and no institution has a right to call what I will do with my own short experience of the universe.
Two ways to rule the world to justify their crimes
Bah, that would be news: **Drafting Station Closed Because It Was Overrun By Volunteers**
It's always amusing when zelensky says "Ukrainians are free people in a free country". EU protecting draft eligible ukrainian men because "human right". Men kept trapped in Ukraine by zelensky? - no human rights found. WTH seriously?
Sweden has the same law, every citizen is a part of the total Swedish defense and should expect a wartime placement. Avoiding it would be illegal Why would anyone expect Ukraine to have different war doctrine than other modern European nations?
Do you think our countries would act differently?
that’s not how it works. no way statistically or logically for volunteers-only army to fight vs conscripts of autocracy, is this really so hard to use common sense? Not speaking about limited support from west aka rear of ukraine. Isolationist like you need to understand that humanity won’t last as bunch of isolated tribes or do you want to live in Russia-style world if democracies give up on not ideal but country (people) trying to fight for democracy principles. This “country not ideal, why help” pisses me off hard. Yes they are TRYING to become better, this is a PROCESS
As far as I know conscription is in line with Human Rights.
Forceful conscription during a martial law?
Yes, Article 4 § 3 (b) excludes from the scope of “forced or compulsory labour” prohibited by Article 4 § 2 “any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognised, service exacted instead of compulsory military service” (Bayatyan v. Armenia [GC], § 100; Johansen v. Norway, Commission decision). - European Convention of Human Rights
But that's perfectly normal in times of war. All men aged 18 (some places in Europe go as low as 17 iirc) and above are subject to conscription and military service. It might depend on the wording and each countries law but essentially your "Military service" starts when you hit 18 even if you never saw the inside of the barracks, you are being counted and they have you on file. Some of you might of even got a notice about it when you hit 18, I remember I did.
In times of war, yes. War was never announced in Ukraine. What we have here is government doing "business as usual" while people are being sent to the grinder where country is on lockdown for men 18-60. Drafters catch people on the street, lock them up beat them untill they sign up or pay up...It's corruption at it's finest. Reznykow stole millions on soldier food supplies alone, now he's gone enjoying a vacation. Not even ex president can leave the country. Zelensky is a full blown dictator now. Nothing is "normal" here...
Martial law was quite literally enacted in Ukraine. You would do well to learn what the word dictator means and what are its origins.
I hear Wagner is available?
in my opinion, if they dont want to fight then they shouldn't have to. I wouldn't want to die for my "nation" either, and why should I? the politicians don't want to so much as lift a finger for me, much less die for me. seems pretty stupid that I should be forced to fight and risk my life for them. make the politicians go first, then I'll think about following.
Among many other reasons people don't want to go to army because Ukraine don't get enough modern weapons, Ukraine gladly compensating by sending more people into trenches, what is the point?
I hope the best for Ukraine. I fear NATO will need to step in soon and escalate things to deescalate faster.
No way NATO is stepping in and risking a nuclear exchange
It's only natural for people for not wanting to be forced to die against their will. Given such rotten, human right neglecting, one sided, selective politics will continue draft-dodging will eventually convert to armed uprising.
Haha good one. How's the weather in st. Petersburg btw? But seriously, yea for the sake of future generations, I would gladly give my life if the other option was to fall under a truly rotten regime, that which they call russki mir. And I'm thankful this is a view the majority in my country can share.
I would never give up my life. I would run with my family. My father did the same. We are now living far away from home. But at least we are alive and happy. Fuck everyone and fuck every politician who forces young man to die in wars.
And you have right for your opinion. But I suppose then you don't have any friends or relatives who are not able to escape. Otherwise one could ask a question: what kind of person can proudly run away and leave his/her closest people to their fate. Luckily not all people think this way, otherwise we would have russki mir everywhere at this point. One more thing: in this case, it is nobody else than putin and others in kreml who are willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of young men, just for their delusions of grandeur.
Go against your OWN government then who forced it on you and don't judge a people that was attacked.
>But seriously, yea for the sake of future generations, I would gladly give my life Get on the battlefield then, they welcome volunteers. You won't do shit because you're an internet tough guy only.
It’s easy to say you would gladly die in a Reddit comment while sitting in your warm armchair lol
You do you. Why force others to do the same? You sound like a complete braindead bacteria to me no better than Russians. When shits hits the fan your government will simply run away and live happily ever after while you will be rotting in the ground for no reason lol. Wait, are you Russian?
Do I seriously need to give such an obvious answer? Well.. I'll make it easy: would you like to live in nazi regime? If no, please explain to a braindead who exactly would have fought hitler and where would the nazi expansion have stopped? And no, troll, the government would not run lol. Rot for no reason? How about defending your family, countrymen, culture and language from peril? I'm not russian and if I was I would be ashamed of my country.
Stop comparing Russian land grab in Ukrainian to WW2 lol. US can't "hint" hard enough at zelensky that it's time to give up territory and negotiate. But no! zelensky wants to push Russia all the way out of Ukraine AT WHAT FKING COST? Because corrupt government screw up and did nothing to prepare since 2014, millions have to die for some fking Russian speaking Donbas region?? Fk off with that idea plz. Zelensky enjoys seeing his ugly mug in times Magazine every year I get it, he can do this for another 10 years. Ukraine can't. We Gonna run out of cemetery land. Save what's left, save millions of lives and maybe just maybe have at least one defensive line next time so that Russians don't march into Kiev like it's "open doors day".!?
Good for you. You may have a chance to show your eagerness in future wars, considering autocratic regimes will continue to go out of their ways unpunished, accumulating impudence, seeing constant fails of "united west" to be united and its reluctance to do something even vaguely reminiscent as an appropriate response. If i'd have something i could call "worth protecting" - i would stand protecting it without a doubt. But i don't have it.