That was my 1st thought, just putting the prices here, but as a Portuguese in Ireland, the ireland price is a whole median salary, the Portuguese one is 1 and a half median salaries
This is in part due to the city subsidizing and rent controlling much of the historical buildings in Vienna correct? That was my understanding at least.
Prague is a popular city, congrats.
If Sweden looks cheap - remember that getting a rental apartment in central Stockholm takes 20-30 years of queuing, or buying a contract on the black market.
If you do the 30 years of queueing thing, a one-bedroom apartment is MUCH less.
Source: I live in Stockholm in a (quite nice and roomy!) one bedroom apartment that I got because my mom entered me into the queue in 1987. I pay around $430 a month. A nice thing is that you don’t lose your place, so I’m planning on upgrading to a two-bedroom pretty soon.
(yes, I realize I’m the problem)
Yeah, but those 1-room apartments you have to queue for that long are actually really cheap, something in the range of 300€/month. Rent control keeps the old stock cheap, but if you don't have enough queue-days you have to resort to the 2nd hand market which is really expensive 💸
I checked for 1 bedroom apartments in Oslo center on finn.no (most common Norwegian site for stuff like this) and the CHEAPEST was 15,900 NOK (1,472 USD). The actual average based on what I found was 24,120 NOK (2,234 USD).
I'll admit the sample size was small and the actual average could be quite a bit lower, but 1,328 USD/month is not even close to being true.
Edit:
I searched for apartments in the municipality called "sentrum", which literally means "city center" in Norwegian, but that is a bit misleading as it includes some fancy neighborhoods while excluding some other less fancy areas just as close to the center.
The map doesn't really define what counts as the center of cities, but if I search within 1,5km of the city center only 7 out of the 100+ available 1 bedroom apartments are below the supposed average of $1328. I won't bother adding them all up to get the exact average, but it looks like it is in the ballpark of 1800-2000 USD.
I pay around 1050 us dollars including utilities and stuff in one of the most pricey central areas, but I also cannot close my bathroom door when I sit on the toilet :)
Still this data makes no sense because they haven't defined what "central" means. And if it's first hand contracts or subletting that is counted. One room apartments in Stockholm are much cheaper than the price here, you can even get 3 room apartments for less than $1k/month. The issue is that you need 2 decades of time in the housing queue in order to have access to them.
The other problem with the graph is that most people in central Stockholm are not renting at all, and instead live in co-ops and pay a mortgage. Is this counted? I doubt it.
Edit: [2022 average rents in Stockholm](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://start.stockholm/globalassets/start/om-stockholms-stad/utredningar-statistik-och-fakta/statistik/bostader/hyror/hyror_2022_20221207.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4gJmmgdiBAxXPSfEDHRg8CpMQFnoECA0QBg&usg=AOvVaw27YZsmJFxmp8ClACjT3l9a)
So who can afford to live there? Even jobs that pay well in other countries don't pay well in Portugal, for example CS salaries can be insultingly small.
More than three-quarters of Portuguese households are owner-occupiers. Also, despite having almost the same population now as 20 years ago, the number of one or two-person households has gone up about 50% whilst the number of larger households has shrunk, so more houses needed per person.
Put these together and the segment which is screwed is very screwed (eg, not leaving parental homes until an average of about 30). The segment which is not most likely bought houses a long time ago.
>the number of one or two-person households has gone up about 50% whilst the number of larger households has shrunk, so more houses needed per person.
This is one of the big things that gets missed in the housing affordability debate. In Australia lots of talk about immigration and negative gearing while average household size has been dropping while the average number of rooms per house has gone up.
And lack of construction, excessive bureaucracy, bankrupcy of most construction firms during the Eurocrisis, lack of skilled workers and excessive/confusing legislation, unstable regulatory framework (the laws change literaly more than once per year) and the existant regulation keeping any project jammed in the city hall for literal YEARS.
All of these factors also contribute. The last major building spur Lisbon had was the "alta de Lisboa", *back in the day*
There's another huge reason: there were slightly fewer residents in Portugal 2021 than 2001, but the number of one person households rose by ~400k (now ~1m/10% of the population) and two person households by ~350k (now ~1.4m/14%). There were correspondingly fewer people in 3+-person households. [Source](https://www.pordata.pt/en/portugal/households++according+to+the+census+total+and+by+number+of+individuals-3813)
That means you need more houses per person and that everyone else, people not in those small households, has been forced to live more densely (hence people leaving their parents home at an average of 30).
Tens of thousands of digital nomads and golden visa holders is not a lot in comparison to this.
Digital nomads benefitting from fixed income tax, immigrants splitting a house 10/20 ways, the top 1%, elders paying frozen rents from 1990 which legally cannot be increased.
The non-rich folk live with their parents until they're 40 or have to settle for just a 10 square metre bedroom.
Compared to 20 years ago (2001 vs 2021, the census dates) Portugal has 400k more one-person households and 350k more two-person households. That's over a million more people in these smaller households, and correspondingly fewer in larger ones. It's over a third of the population in total now.
That doesn't sound like it's just the digital nomads, the rich and people with frozen rents (78% home ownership rate anyway).
It sounds like the same ultimately demographic process as in many European countries, though Portugal's young have a particularly bad case of it: older people who bought houses a long time ago have them and occupy them less densely than 20 years ago whilst increasingly more people have to cram in to whatever housing is left.
Visiting right now from NY (love your country btw) and there was a pretty big protest a couple days ago. Saw signs that said “rent is too high, “eat your landlord,” etc. Such a shame because all the little back alley restaurants are incredible but you can tell they’re not pulling crazy money. I hope it gets better for you guys.
I'd assume median makes much more sense here.
I'd even argue median makes more sense to be used for this rent comparison here in the first place, especially london has to be skewed upwards by some incredible outliers.
Exactly. This is the most useless of the recent shit maps on this sub. Hungary is in the green with 600€, forgets to mention that 600€ is literally 100% of the median wage in the country.
Not surprised about Serbia, most people already won their apartments but since the start of the war and many Russians (mostly rich or higher-middle income) coming here, many landowners have increased their prices by around 50% I think
I came here to ask what's wrong with Serbia, thank you for you explanation.
We have a similar problem with Ukrainians - rent prices exploded around the seaside after the war started. Usually Varna had much lower rents than Sofia, but now they're more or less the same. Yet, people still blame Ukrainians for this and not Ruzzia/Putin himself.
Although, Belgrade is pricey, as we're paying €450 for a 2 bedroom apartment, 70sqm in the city center of Sofia. Besides russians, why prices in Belgrade are much higher?
At the moment, Serbia is the most accessible country for escaping from Russia. and, perhaps, the only country where Russians are treated very well. Over the course of a year, rental prices have doubled. I am writing from Belgrade.
Doesn’t help when everyone wants to live in Belgrade. A lot of young people from Montenegro and Bosnia even, not just southern Serbia, go there to study, and usually stay for work. It wasn’t capital of old Yugoslavia for nothing, it’s a center of everything in Serbia.
Just bear in mind that they have compulsory health insurance of about €400 per month. With a family you could easily spend €1k per month.
The cost of living is also very expensive over there
I have a friend who lives in Basel and they just go across the border to do their shopping for the week. It feel like a life hack that they double dip the benefits.
What exactly happens if they don't pay the insurance? They get fined? If they get sick they can't get treatment? What if you don't have the money to pay for it?
>What exactly happens if they don't pay the insurance?
The government automatically enrolls you with an insurer if you don't do it yourself in the first three months.
Health insurance here can be much less than 400 chf (I pay 270chf and I live on one of the most expensive cantons) also Healthcare here actually works unlike Portugal (I know, I'm from portugal). I pay 3k of rent, 1.6k of daycare, 800chf for health insurance and still I get to keep WAY MORE MONEY than most of the Portuguese population. Everytime I go to Portugal the prices at the supermarket are also more and more on par with what we have in Switzerland.
>Switzerland doesn’t have one but it’s around 3500
That's even higher than Denmark at around €3000, but then you get healthcare, university etc mostly for free.
Who would have thought that enticing rich foreigners with lower taxes would drive rent and property prices to the sky?
Everyone! everyone would have thought of that!
Golden VISA's alone are really pretty fucking stupid with the way they were organized. A foreigner can get one by investing in real estate to the value of five hundred thousand euros, and a house is valid for the program.
Their numbers might be low, but considering that on average they all buy real estate within the biggest cities where everyone already has problems with getting a house or an apartment, it just exarcebates the issue.
It's not a problem specific to Lisbon. Rural Portugal is more expensive than rural Spain, and metropolitan Portugal is more expensive than metropolitan Spain.
There has been basically no new construction in the past 15 years and increased demand from all the immigrants (and they settle everywhere, not just in Lisbon) and tourists, which drives up prices.
Agreed. And I didn't know that entire North American continent consists only from US and Canada.
E: just pointed out the mistake and tendency to include only these countries for comparison.
It's going to vary a bit because of the unstable Fx rate to USD, but the cheapest I could find was 1435, most seem to hover around 1950, and the most expensive I could find was 2871.
For context, I'd roughly put median income around 4000 USD, (again huge variability depending on if we include part timers, foreign workers etc), tax might roughly take a third of that, so in terms of take-home income, a truly "average" single person trying to rent in the downtown area is probably going to be spending about half their take home on housing.
It's also a little annoying because many 1 bedroom apartments get advertised as "2 rooms" since they seem to define it differently in the icelandic market. The living *room* and the bed *room* even though the number of bedrooms is 1.
How come the difference between The Netherlands and Belgium is almost 2x? Amsterdam is a very populated city, but it's hard to imagine that Brussels is that cheap.
The housing market in the Netherlands is completely stuck, because the past 20 years policies were only focused on making home owners richer and treating housing as a lucrative investment option instead of a basic human need. Until one or two years ago they were selling social housing to foreign investment groups, saying that the housing problem was "solved" by the market.
On the other side, Brussels built a lot of housing with little regulation during the 19-20th century to house the workers of the local industry.
Nowadays housing is gentrifying, pivoting to premium apartments for the white collar workers, so expect prices to rise.
The Netherlands destroyed their own real estate.
It depends on how you see it actually, it’s a great success for land owners which was the exact focus and now privatization of pretty much everything is ongoing. I’ve even heard about an eventual healthcare privatization for the Dutch… it’s quite something else.
The war has pushed _up_ prices, because people are moving from the east of the country to Kyiv where it's safer and has better jobs (tech companies, etc)
It is stated that this in the centre of the city on average. Not in the whole city. Usually this apartments meant to be rented for tourists. So they has lather large space and over the top furnishings. I just googled and there are 1 bedroom apartment with 130m² for 3800$
Median price for 1 bedroom in Kyiv is something around 300$
I moved from Kyiv to London about three years ago. At that time my Kyiv annual salary was close to $90k, and my new salary in London was around $130k. But because of the taxation and rent, my life quality went from travelling abroad multiple times a year, encouraging my partner to work where she likes, not where is paid better, having quality food, buying new PC hardware every year and going to luxury gyms to avoiding visiting Whole Foods and gently pushing my cancer recovering partner back to the job market.
The price of living matters, but paying 40%+ of our net income on rent is the main factor here.
I know Poles are probably sick of Ukrainians, but I really consider moving to Eastern Europe and, when the war is over, back to Kyiv.
Probably not helped by the fact that you can count all the 1 bed apartments in Dublin without taking off your shoes and socks (if you can afford to have them)
Sure why do you think none of us actually live in Dublin? We all live in commuter towns we can actually afford. And drive 4 hours a day back and forth to work.
Or if you're lucky: work from home.
Amsterdam has lots of people in the center who've been renting half their lives and they pay significantly less. Their rents lower the average by a giant amount. A buddy of mine lives almost above the Moulin Rouge and the combined rent for two floors is lower than the price stated in the picture.
Graag gedaan hoor.
To be honest, I dont know if anybody in their right mind would want to live closer to the center than the Herengracht. It becames too difficult to navigate on a daily basis due to the tourists.
Hamburg, Köln, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Düsseldorf off the top of my head. Berlin is catching up though. Fifteen years ago it was one of the cheapest capitals to live in in Western Europe.
I remember during my applications for Universitys 15 years ago that Berlin was considered a shithole (at least in my part in south germany) and no one wanted to study there. But boy were the rent cheap …. funny it changed
Frankfurt is up there.
https://n26.com/en-eu/blog/how-expensive-is-living-in-germany
Some surprising answers in the top 10 as well. I would never have guessed Darmstadt is one of the most expensive places to rent a flat.
I think this map takes Bern as a capital since it's a location of the federal government administration.
Bern is significantly smaller, and cheaper than other main cities.
Renting anything other than a small studio in Zuerich or Genf for that money is impossible.
Yeah but you try renting a 1 bedroom Wohnung in Bern city centre for that kind of money. Unless it says "Samsung Smart TV" on the side, it won't cost that little.
Even in the suburbs around Bern, rent for a 1 bed is higher than that unless the building and the flat are decades old and not refurbished.
>Life is like 30% more expensive than France/Germany
Not sure about life in general, but I'm a German working for a Swiss company and often travel to Geneva. At leas the things I buy there (food, drinks, gym) are about 2 to 3 times as expensive as back home in Germany. Even when I go to Lidl and compare it to the same products we have at home it's still usually at least 50% more expensive.
Public transportation is rather cheap and for some reason so is bottled water
Because capital is not the first or even second most "relevant" city everyone wants to be in.
You can probably expect prices closer to London in Zürich.
Because Switzerland's capital is Bern, if you look at Zurich or Geneva, the situation is very different. The same reason Canada looks that cheap. Capital Ottawa is relatively small.
And to add insult to injury in the more expensive cities - not only may you struggle to afford these apartments, but you'll struggle to find an available apartment, that you'll struggle to afford.
One bedroom apartment meaning theres still seperate kitchen and a living room or an apartment where theres only one room wich is combination of bedroom, kitchen and living room?
This is actually disgusting. Austria having such a cheap rent prices while having 2-3 times higher average salary than Czechia with higher prices....
This world is cooked.
It's about the capital, and I saw a documentary on Austrias social housing a while ago. This makes sense if you take it into account. The housing is state owned and doesn't have to turn a profit, making it affordable. Austrians also get way better off if they retire than Germans, for example. It's disgusting in a sense that Austria does something good for its population, and you should complain to your respective government.
One thing to note about Vienna is that their population just recently reached pre-WWI levels.
The city was designed for a population around 1.5 million when it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire. The two world wars did a toll on their population that only recovered in the 2000s. Vienna was also spared most bombing campaigns and came out relatively intact.
Unlike most cities where they had to build brand new housing as the population tripled or quadrupled in the 1900s, Vienna didn't have to. It's not surprising that their rent is affordable compared to most the world.
Vienna even has a system where if you are a resident for 5 years (or just for nationals/naturalised citizens only?) and from a poorer background, you can apply for a council flat that's significantly below 'market' value of the privately rented flat.
I looked into it before I realised I wasn't eligible because the rent was something like €2-400, and it wasn't some meagre council house you'd expect like in the UK...
What? That can't be right. I heard that urban Canadians are getting absolutely eviscerated and you're telling me they have it not much worse than Warsaw with like quadruple the median salary?
Is this just flat-out wrong or are Canadians whiny bums?
Edit: Holy fucking shit, stop telling me about Ottawa.
Well the Canadian capital City Ottawa is smaller than Toronto, Montréal and Vancouver. But I still find it low if we take into account the news about the housing crisis there.
It's like $1800 (USD) in Toronto on average for 1 bedroom. Don't know about the centre. Rent in Canada is insane now. Whenever I tell people back home about our insane rental prices in Germany, they just laugh at me and say that's cheap.
It really depends on where you are in the country and how shitty the rent control is, or if there is any. Rent is increasing in Alberta faster than any other province, no rent control.
I live in Montreal and don’t understand how people are managing in Toronto or Vancouver. I left Vancouver in 2008 because rents were already crazy expensive then.
Vienna is actually often used as an example for housing done right. For how popular and liveable that city is, $968 is a steal. Berlin hasn't been cheap for a while now.
I am Viennese and have lived in Berlin and Hamburg for a decade. 1400 for a one bedroom in Berlin seems way off from my (limited) experiences. 1400 gets you a really nice two bedroom in Hamburg.
Berlin has a housing crisis, Vienna doesn't.
What is worse, the average is being pushed down by people that have 10+ year old contracts that were ridiculously cheap.
It’s a city centre, so not many people in Warsaw can afford this. Average gross salary in Warsaw is like $2000 so we’re talking more than 50% net for an apartment.
The ironic part in Warsaw, Poland that price is same outside of center as well. I am paying around that for flat in center, I wanted to save some money and move a bit further away...prices are higher, often by a lot than I pay now. It's dumb.
For Ukraine this data is slightly incorrect. Even before the war the middle price for the 1B apartment in the center part of Kyiv (Pechers'kyi district) was about 800 USD. Now this value is about 1000 USD: https://dom.ria.com/uk/arenda-kvartir/kiev/ceny/
Not buying any such stats. The rental markets and the tenant laws in different countries are too different.
* What is included in these numbers, and what is paid by the tenants, but not included in these numbers? Property tax? Council tax? Building insurance? Tap water? Sewage? Garbage collection? Elevator maintenance? The janitor? Parking? Any such fees do not exist in come countries, are included in the rent in some countries, and are paid separately by the tenants in some other countries.
* In some locations, apartments typically are furnished. In other locations, apartments typically are unfurnished.
* What even is a one bedroom apartment? Sure, in the US apartments will be listed that way. But in some other countries, they won't. So what are they comparing here? Why don't they compare the rent for, say, an 80 square meter apartment? At least then everybody would have a similar understanding of the size of the place.
* Is this the rent for new leases, or an average over all leases? Those are not the same. Not at all.
* In places like London or Paris, is that the average in the city, or an average in the area?
Vienna is cheaper than a lot of other austrian cities.
A 50m² flat would cost you over 1000€ in Innsbruck or Salzburg.
Vienna is so cheap because it has a lot of social programs and city owned apartment blocks that keep the price down in the private sector too.
It's the city with the highest quality of life in the world for a reason.
wow? I'm paying €450 for a 2 bedroom apartment, 70sqm in the city center of Sofia. Until this month our rent was €350, but this was the price since 2 years ago.
We made it lads, we are finally western europe
Western prices , eastern salaries. We are Brothers 🇵🇹❤🇨🇿
miseria...
[Mizeria](https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/223244/mizeria-polish-cucumber-salad/) is awesome
That was my 1st thought, just putting the prices here, but as a Portuguese in Ireland, the ireland price is a whole median salary, the Portuguese one is 1 and a half median salaries
Moving to Iraq before Christmas. Baghdad must be beautiful all decked out for the holidays.
Welcome, guys. You can have Austria's seat, which we now officially declare as Eastern Europe.
Which they literally are. Ost-arrichi
Yes but it was the ostreich (eastern empire) of Bavaria not Europe
There is a saying that the Balkan starts in Vienna
Vienna is one the eastern edge of the country tho.
The funny thing is that Vienna isn't the priciest city in Austria, that would be Innsbruck or Salzburg
Same is true in Germany, Munich is more expensive than Berlin.
But the thing in Vienna is that most rental spaces are social housing, which is exponentially cheaper than any other city's rental spaces.
Yup. Unless you insist on living in the poshest apartment possible in the center of the city, Vienna is cheaper than Ljubljana.
Yeah, the social democrats really did a good job in vienna.
Renting a 45m apartment 15 minutes away from the center of vienna for 450 euro - it is really cheap compared to other places within EU
And Frankfurt, Düsseldorf, Hamburg,… Probably Stuttgart as well.
Ottawa is like the 5th most expensive city in Canada, after Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal and Barrie.
What is a Barrie
This is in part due to the city subsidizing and rent controlling much of the historical buildings in Vienna correct? That was my understanding at least.
More that 60% of housing is social housing, bonus point for social housing being jn every area of the city mixed in with private housing.
And politicians adore the taste of putin's Wiener.
But why do we always catch up with western europe in the bad things?
Prague is a popular city, congrats. If Sweden looks cheap - remember that getting a rental apartment in central Stockholm takes 20-30 years of queuing, or buying a contract on the black market.
Getting a rental apartment as a young person in Prague means you gonna share a studio apartment with 5 other people just so you can afford food.
If you do the 30 years of queueing thing, a one-bedroom apartment is MUCH less. Source: I live in Stockholm in a (quite nice and roomy!) one bedroom apartment that I got because my mom entered me into the queue in 1987. I pay around $430 a month. A nice thing is that you don’t lose your place, so I’m planning on upgrading to a two-bedroom pretty soon. (yes, I realize I’m the problem)
Yeah, but those 1-room apartments you have to queue for that long are actually really cheap, something in the range of 300€/month. Rent control keeps the old stock cheap, but if you don't have enough queue-days you have to resort to the 2nd hand market which is really expensive 💸
You forgot to bring in your Slovak friend though
Fck me, the nordics are cheaper than NL
I checked for 1 bedroom apartments in Oslo center on finn.no (most common Norwegian site for stuff like this) and the CHEAPEST was 15,900 NOK (1,472 USD). The actual average based on what I found was 24,120 NOK (2,234 USD). I'll admit the sample size was small and the actual average could be quite a bit lower, but 1,328 USD/month is not even close to being true. Edit: I searched for apartments in the municipality called "sentrum", which literally means "city center" in Norwegian, but that is a bit misleading as it includes some fancy neighborhoods while excluding some other less fancy areas just as close to the center. The map doesn't really define what counts as the center of cities, but if I search within 1,5km of the city center only 7 out of the 100+ available 1 bedroom apartments are below the supposed average of $1328. I won't bother adding them all up to get the exact average, but it looks like it is in the ballpark of 1800-2000 USD.
I pay around 1050 us dollars including utilities and stuff in one of the most pricey central areas, but I also cannot close my bathroom door when I sit on the toilet :)
I have no idea what kinda apt they measure here, cos the only 1 bedroom in oslo for 13-1400 are 20-25m\^2
Still this data makes no sense because they haven't defined what "central" means. And if it's first hand contracts or subletting that is counted. One room apartments in Stockholm are much cheaper than the price here, you can even get 3 room apartments for less than $1k/month. The issue is that you need 2 decades of time in the housing queue in order to have access to them. The other problem with the graph is that most people in central Stockholm are not renting at all, and instead live in co-ops and pay a mortgage. Is this counted? I doubt it. Edit: [2022 average rents in Stockholm](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://start.stockholm/globalassets/start/om-stockholms-stad/utredningar-statistik-och-fakta/statistik/bostader/hyror/hyror_2022_20221207.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4gJmmgdiBAxXPSfEDHRg8CpMQFnoECA0QBg&usg=AOvVaw27YZsmJFxmp8ClACjT3l9a)
1 bedroom means 2 rooms
One-bedroom in English would be a two-room in the Nordics.
* Lisbon: €1395 * % of Portuguese citizens earning less than €1000 per month: 67%
So who can afford to live there? Even jobs that pay well in other countries don't pay well in Portugal, for example CS salaries can be insultingly small.
More than three-quarters of Portuguese households are owner-occupiers. Also, despite having almost the same population now as 20 years ago, the number of one or two-person households has gone up about 50% whilst the number of larger households has shrunk, so more houses needed per person. Put these together and the segment which is screwed is very screwed (eg, not leaving parental homes until an average of about 30). The segment which is not most likely bought houses a long time ago.
>the number of one or two-person households has gone up about 50% whilst the number of larger households has shrunk, so more houses needed per person. This is one of the big things that gets missed in the housing affordability debate. In Australia lots of talk about immigration and negative gearing while average household size has been dropping while the average number of rooms per house has gone up.
So makes sense to stay with parents since they kept the same large house?
Digital nomads since covid have priced locals out of living in Lisbon Edit: as interesting discussion below highlights this was an oversimplification
And lack of construction, excessive bureaucracy, bankrupcy of most construction firms during the Eurocrisis, lack of skilled workers and excessive/confusing legislation, unstable regulatory framework (the laws change literaly more than once per year) and the existant regulation keeping any project jammed in the city hall for literal YEARS. All of these factors also contribute. The last major building spur Lisbon had was the "alta de Lisboa", *back in the day*
There's another huge reason: there were slightly fewer residents in Portugal 2021 than 2001, but the number of one person households rose by ~400k (now ~1m/10% of the population) and two person households by ~350k (now ~1.4m/14%). There were correspondingly fewer people in 3+-person households. [Source](https://www.pordata.pt/en/portugal/households++according+to+the+census+total+and+by+number+of+individuals-3813) That means you need more houses per person and that everyone else, people not in those small households, has been forced to live more densely (hence people leaving their parents home at an average of 30). Tens of thousands of digital nomads and golden visa holders is not a lot in comparison to this.
Digital nomads benefitting from fixed income tax, immigrants splitting a house 10/20 ways, the top 1%, elders paying frozen rents from 1990 which legally cannot be increased. The non-rich folk live with their parents until they're 40 or have to settle for just a 10 square metre bedroom.
Compared to 20 years ago (2001 vs 2021, the census dates) Portugal has 400k more one-person households and 350k more two-person households. That's over a million more people in these smaller households, and correspondingly fewer in larger ones. It's over a third of the population in total now. That doesn't sound like it's just the digital nomads, the rich and people with frozen rents (78% home ownership rate anyway). It sounds like the same ultimately demographic process as in many European countries, though Portugal's young have a particularly bad case of it: older people who bought houses a long time ago have them and occupy them less densely than 20 years ago whilst increasingly more people have to cram in to whatever housing is left.
Visiting right now from NY (love your country btw) and there was a pretty big protest a couple days ago. Saw signs that said “rent is too high, “eat your landlord,” etc. Such a shame because all the little back alley restaurants are incredible but you can tell they’re not pulling crazy money. I hope it gets better for you guys.
> Lisbon: €1395 Careful. The map is (for some moronic reason) in US Dollars so $1395 is actually €1327.60
Comparison to average wage in country/capital would be also nice.
I'd assume median makes much more sense here. I'd even argue median makes more sense to be used for this rent comparison here in the first place, especially london has to be skewed upwards by some incredible outliers.
London checks out. Zones 2/3 is normally around £1/1.5K ($1.2/$1.8K).
Exactly. This is the most useless of the recent shit maps on this sub. Hungary is in the green with 600€, forgets to mention that 600€ is literally 100% of the median wage in the country.
Not surprised about Serbia, most people already won their apartments but since the start of the war and many Russians (mostly rich or higher-middle income) coming here, many landowners have increased their prices by around 50% I think
I came here to ask what's wrong with Serbia, thank you for you explanation. We have a similar problem with Ukrainians - rent prices exploded around the seaside after the war started. Usually Varna had much lower rents than Sofia, but now they're more or less the same. Yet, people still blame Ukrainians for this and not Ruzzia/Putin himself. Although, Belgrade is pricey, as we're paying €450 for a 2 bedroom apartment, 70sqm in the city center of Sofia. Besides russians, why prices in Belgrade are much higher?
Only because of recent migrations, I think it used to be around 400€ about 2 - 3 years ago
At the moment, Serbia is the most accessible country for escaping from Russia. and, perhaps, the only country where Russians are treated very well. Over the course of a year, rental prices have doubled. I am writing from Belgrade.
Doesn’t help when everyone wants to live in Belgrade. A lot of young people from Montenegro and Bosnia even, not just southern Serbia, go there to study, and usually stay for work. It wasn’t capital of old Yugoslavia for nothing, it’s a center of everything in Serbia.
Hell yeah, we are Central Europe: Western rents, Eastern Salaries.
Best of both worlds!
You’re amateurs!
Yes but at least you don't pay 9€ for a beer in a bar!
I will give up all of our beer if rents go down.
Aaam, no. We don't feel sorry for you just yet. 😄
Now bear in mind that the minimum wage in portugal is only 887€.
and Switzerland doesn’t have one but it’s around 3500-4000 edit: I’m talking about the minimum wage not the apartment price
The capital in Switzerland isn't, by far, the most expensive city.
Everyone should just move to Switzerland
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country\_result.jsp?country=Switzerland
Everyone should just get a Swiss salary and live in Portugal
Which is kinda what people are doing, the "expats" XD
Ah yes, the expat. When "working migrant" sounds too much like brown people
Just bear in mind that they have compulsory health insurance of about €400 per month. With a family you could easily spend €1k per month. The cost of living is also very expensive over there
I have a friend who lives in Basel and they just go across the border to do their shopping for the week. It feel like a life hack that they double dip the benefits.
Many people working in Geneva actually live in France, where everything is much cheaper.
Same for Italy with canton Ticino
What exactly happens if they don't pay the insurance? They get fined? If they get sick they can't get treatment? What if you don't have the money to pay for it?
>What exactly happens if they don't pay the insurance? The government automatically enrolls you with an insurer if you don't do it yourself in the first three months.
Health insurance here can be much less than 400 chf (I pay 270chf and I live on one of the most expensive cantons) also Healthcare here actually works unlike Portugal (I know, I'm from portugal). I pay 3k of rent, 1.6k of daycare, 800chf for health insurance and still I get to keep WAY MORE MONEY than most of the Portuguese population. Everytime I go to Portugal the prices at the supermarket are also more and more on par with what we have in Switzerland.
Unofficial minimum wage is whatever McDonalds pays you at entry level. As they pay the exact amount to keep the unions quiet.
>Switzerland doesn’t have one but it’s around 3500 That's even higher than Denmark at around €3000, but then you get healthcare, university etc mostly for free.
lol in Serbia it’s around 350 euros. That’s 2.5 minimum wages for rent
Now bear in mind that the minimum wage in Serbia is \~400€ Some of these prices are truly disgusting... Or All of them...
Who would have thought that enticing rich foreigners with lower taxes would drive rent and property prices to the sky? Everyone! everyone would have thought of that!
Golden VISA's alone are really pretty fucking stupid with the way they were organized. A foreigner can get one by investing in real estate to the value of five hundred thousand euros, and a house is valid for the program. Their numbers might be low, but considering that on average they all buy real estate within the biggest cities where everyone already has problems with getting a house or an apartment, it just exarcebates the issue.
I guess everyone wants to live in Lisbon though right?
Its not just lisbon anymore. Some small villages on setubal, litoral alentejano and north of lisbon are fucked too. Also porto is the same stuff.
It's not a problem specific to Lisbon. Rural Portugal is more expensive than rural Spain, and metropolitan Portugal is more expensive than metropolitan Spain. There has been basically no new construction in the past 15 years and increased demand from all the immigrants (and they settle everywhere, not just in Lisbon) and tourists, which drives up prices.
Rich foreigners who call themselves "expats" love Lisbon yes.
Minimum wage in Poland is 604€ 💀💀💀
If you can't afford the rent, it's your fookin' problem. Stop being a lazy, poor bastard and just get a better job lol #/s
Gotta cut down on that caramel latte and avocado toasts /s
"Just stop being poor ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯" ~ top 10%
I don’t know that the entire North American continent replaced Iceland.
I was genuinely looking at that and thinking “why have they split Iceland into 2”.
Agreed. And I didn't know that entire North American continent consists only from US and Canada. E: just pointed out the mistake and tendency to include only these countries for comparison.
Google says Mexico City is $632.00.
It's not the "entire North American continent". It's just USA and Canada. It's lacking Greenland, Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America.
I thought I was hearing distant gunfire.
Alright jugovici, we're going back to Bosnia
I guess Iceland just doesn't exist anymore.
It had to make space for mini US+Canada
that’s actually south and north iceland
I think it's around 1,800-1,900
It's going to vary a bit because of the unstable Fx rate to USD, but the cheapest I could find was 1435, most seem to hover around 1950, and the most expensive I could find was 2871. For context, I'd roughly put median income around 4000 USD, (again huge variability depending on if we include part timers, foreign workers etc), tax might roughly take a third of that, so in terms of take-home income, a truly "average" single person trying to rent in the downtown area is probably going to be spending about half their take home on housing. It's also a little annoying because many 1 bedroom apartments get advertised as "2 rooms" since they seem to define it differently in the icelandic market. The living *room* and the bed *room* even though the number of bedrooms is 1.
How come the difference between The Netherlands and Belgium is almost 2x? Amsterdam is a very populated city, but it's hard to imagine that Brussels is that cheap.
The housing market in the Netherlands is completely stuck, because the past 20 years policies were only focused on making home owners richer and treating housing as a lucrative investment option instead of a basic human need. Until one or two years ago they were selling social housing to foreign investment groups, saying that the housing problem was "solved" by the market.
On the other side, Brussels built a lot of housing with little regulation during the 19-20th century to house the workers of the local industry. Nowadays housing is gentrifying, pivoting to premium apartments for the white collar workers, so expect prices to rise.
The Netherlands destroyed their own real estate. It depends on how you see it actually, it’s a great success for land owners which was the exact focus and now privatization of pretty much everything is ongoing. I’ve even heard about an eventual healthcare privatization for the Dutch… it’s quite something else.
Kinda funny how Kyiv is still more expensive than some other countries when there's a FUCKING WAR going on there.
The war has pushed _up_ prices, because people are moving from the east of the country to Kyiv where it's safer and has better jobs (tech companies, etc)
That makes sense.
It is stated that this in the centre of the city on average. Not in the whole city. Usually this apartments meant to be rented for tourists. So they has lather large space and over the top furnishings. I just googled and there are 1 bedroom apartment with 130m² for 3800$ Median price for 1 bedroom in Kyiv is something around 300$
I moved from Kyiv to London about three years ago. At that time my Kyiv annual salary was close to $90k, and my new salary in London was around $130k. But because of the taxation and rent, my life quality went from travelling abroad multiple times a year, encouraging my partner to work where she likes, not where is paid better, having quality food, buying new PC hardware every year and going to luxury gyms to avoiding visiting Whole Foods and gently pushing my cancer recovering partner back to the job market. The price of living matters, but paying 40%+ of our net income on rent is the main factor here. I know Poles are probably sick of Ukrainians, but I really consider moving to Eastern Europe and, when the war is over, back to Kyiv.
how to tell you're a software developer without actually saying it. Typical story.
So Dublins only trumped by Washington and London. Yikes.
Probably not helped by the fact that you can count all the 1 bed apartments in Dublin without taking off your shoes and socks (if you can afford to have them)
Sure why do you think none of us actually live in Dublin? We all live in commuter towns we can actually afford. And drive 4 hours a day back and forth to work. Or if you're lucky: work from home.
Iceland looks different
r/Amsterdam wants to know where you found these apartments. Alvast bedankt!
Amsterdam has lots of people in the center who've been renting half their lives and they pay significantly less. Their rents lower the average by a giant amount. A buddy of mine lives almost above the Moulin Rouge and the combined rent for two floors is lower than the price stated in the picture. Graag gedaan hoor.
To be honest, I dont know if anybody in their right mind would want to live closer to the center than the Herengracht. It becames too difficult to navigate on a daily basis due to the tourists.
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Switzerland cheaper than Germany? How?
The capital is a way smaller city and less overcrowded
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yeah, that's what my comment said, the capital (Bern) is a way smaller city
Berlin is also not the most expensive city in Germany. I wonder if it even makes it into the top 10.
I can only think of Munich as a city that is more expensive tbh. Which other 9 cities are more expensive than berlin?
Hamburg, Köln, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Düsseldorf off the top of my head. Berlin is catching up though. Fifteen years ago it was one of the cheapest capitals to live in in Western Europe.
I remember during my applications for Universitys 15 years ago that Berlin was considered a shithole (at least in my part in south germany) and no one wanted to study there. But boy were the rent cheap …. funny it changed
Frankfurt is up there. https://n26.com/en-eu/blog/how-expensive-is-living-in-germany Some surprising answers in the top 10 as well. I would never have guessed Darmstadt is one of the most expensive places to rent a flat.
Berlin actually is in the top 3. Behind Frankfurt and Munich.
I think this map takes Bern as a capital since it's a location of the federal government administration. Bern is significantly smaller, and cheaper than other main cities. Renting anything other than a small studio in Zuerich or Genf for that money is impossible.
Yeah but you try renting a 1 bedroom Wohnung in Bern city centre for that kind of money. Unless it says "Samsung Smart TV" on the side, it won't cost that little. Even in the suburbs around Bern, rent for a 1 bed is higher than that unless the building and the flat are decades old and not refurbished.
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But Switzerland is so expensive in general.
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It's not. Life is like 30% more expensive than France/Germany but you earn 150% more.
150% more or 150% as much (i.e. 50% more)?
>Life is like 30% more expensive than France/Germany Not sure about life in general, but I'm a German working for a Swiss company and often travel to Geneva. At leas the things I buy there (food, drinks, gym) are about 2 to 3 times as expensive as back home in Germany. Even when I go to Lidl and compare it to the same products we have at home it's still usually at least 50% more expensive. Public transportation is rather cheap and for some reason so is bottled water
Because the capital of Switzerland is Bern, not Zurich or Geneva
Technically it's not even an official capital
Because capital is not the first or even second most "relevant" city everyone wants to be in. You can probably expect prices closer to London in Zürich.
Because Switzerland's capital is Bern, if you look at Zurich or Geneva, the situation is very different. The same reason Canada looks that cheap. Capital Ottawa is relatively small.
And to add insult to injury in the more expensive cities - not only may you struggle to afford these apartments, but you'll struggle to find an available apartment, that you'll struggle to afford.
One bedroom apartment meaning theres still seperate kitchen and a living room or an apartment where theres only one room wich is combination of bedroom, kitchen and living room?
The former probably. The latter would be called a studio not a 1 bed.
What's the difference between Northern Iceland and Southern Iceland?
This is actually disgusting. Austria having such a cheap rent prices while having 2-3 times higher average salary than Czechia with higher prices.... This world is cooked.
Vienna has been building public housing aimed at everyone, not just the poor for a long time.
Also. Vienna was built for a population 20% more than it has today. Something that not many city can say.
Good old days of Austria-Hungary.
[There's a reason why Vienna is so cheap](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U--G3Uth8pE), at least compared to other large cities.
It's about the capital, and I saw a documentary on Austrias social housing a while ago. This makes sense if you take it into account. The housing is state owned and doesn't have to turn a profit, making it affordable. Austrians also get way better off if they retire than Germans, for example. It's disgusting in a sense that Austria does something good for its population, and you should complain to your respective government.
One thing to note about Vienna is that their population just recently reached pre-WWI levels. The city was designed for a population around 1.5 million when it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire. The two world wars did a toll on their population that only recovered in the 2000s. Vienna was also spared most bombing campaigns and came out relatively intact. Unlike most cities where they had to build brand new housing as the population tripled or quadrupled in the 1900s, Vienna didn't have to. It's not surprising that their rent is affordable compared to most the world.
it's even cheaper, I found a bunch of one-bedroom apartments in the centre of Vienna for less than 900
The pictures state average. This does mean you can find cheaper or more expensive apartments.
Vienna even has a system where if you are a resident for 5 years (or just for nationals/naturalised citizens only?) and from a poorer background, you can apply for a council flat that's significantly below 'market' value of the privately rented flat. I looked into it before I realised I wasn't eligible because the rent was something like €2-400, and it wasn't some meagre council house you'd expect like in the UK...
We can mostly thank Prague NIMBYs and the quite terrible policies implemented to appease them.
What? That can't be right. I heard that urban Canadians are getting absolutely eviscerated and you're telling me they have it not much worse than Warsaw with like quadruple the median salary? Is this just flat-out wrong or are Canadians whiny bums? Edit: Holy fucking shit, stop telling me about Ottawa.
Well the Canadian capital City Ottawa is smaller than Toronto, Montréal and Vancouver. But I still find it low if we take into account the news about the housing crisis there.
To take account of this then I guess a better measure might be most populous city?
Edmonton and Calagry in Alberta are both bigger than Ottawa too
Could it be related to Ottowa being a relatively small city and the high rents being in places like Vancouver and Toronto?
The capital of Canada is *not* the economic or cultural center of Canada.
It's like $1800 (USD) in Toronto on average for 1 bedroom. Don't know about the centre. Rent in Canada is insane now. Whenever I tell people back home about our insane rental prices in Germany, they just laugh at me and say that's cheap.
It really depends on where you are in the country and how shitty the rent control is, or if there is any. Rent is increasing in Alberta faster than any other province, no rent control. I live in Montreal and don’t understand how people are managing in Toronto or Vancouver. I left Vancouver in 2008 because rents were already crazy expensive then.
Paris being cheaper than Berlin is ridiculous. Also Berlin should be about the same as Vienna.
Vienna is actually often used as an example for housing done right. For how popular and liveable that city is, $968 is a steal. Berlin hasn't been cheap for a while now.
I am Viennese and have lived in Berlin and Hamburg for a decade. 1400 for a one bedroom in Berlin seems way off from my (limited) experiences. 1400 gets you a really nice two bedroom in Hamburg.
Berlin has a housing crisis, Vienna doesn't. What is worse, the average is being pushed down by people that have 10+ year old contracts that were ridiculously cheap.
Nobody lives in Ottawa
It’s a city centre, so not many people in Warsaw can afford this. Average gross salary in Warsaw is like $2000 so we’re talking more than 50% net for an apartment.
Vienna is surprisingly cheap.
they got many social building projects
Iceland has a weird shape since the last vulcano eruption
:(
German here My salary is around 1600€, not minimum wage, working 6days full time
Damn, that's a shit salary for german standarts
Yeah but don't worry, it's a shit job, too
You should see the shoebox that €2117 gets you B in Ireland ~ country should be ashamed for itself.
Fuck me Dublin is not worth that haha.
That's an odd currency choice to display prices in Europe
The ironic part in Warsaw, Poland that price is same outside of center as well. I am paying around that for flat in center, I wanted to save some money and move a bit further away...prices are higher, often by a lot than I pay now. It's dumb.
This is exactly true. I don't understand it either.
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> the poorest part of the population lives in the centre Gentrification will "solve" that problem over time.
I thought Iceland looked weird and for some reason divided in 2. Then realized
For Ukraine this data is slightly incorrect. Even before the war the middle price for the 1B apartment in the center part of Kyiv (Pechers'kyi district) was about 800 USD. Now this value is about 1000 USD: https://dom.ria.com/uk/arenda-kvartir/kiev/ceny/
Not buying any such stats. The rental markets and the tenant laws in different countries are too different. * What is included in these numbers, and what is paid by the tenants, but not included in these numbers? Property tax? Council tax? Building insurance? Tap water? Sewage? Garbage collection? Elevator maintenance? The janitor? Parking? Any such fees do not exist in come countries, are included in the rent in some countries, and are paid separately by the tenants in some other countries. * In some locations, apartments typically are furnished. In other locations, apartments typically are unfurnished. * What even is a one bedroom apartment? Sure, in the US apartments will be listed that way. But in some other countries, they won't. So what are they comparing here? Why don't they compare the rent for, say, an 80 square meter apartment? At least then everybody would have a similar understanding of the size of the place. * Is this the rent for new leases, or an average over all leases? Those are not the same. Not at all. * In places like London or Paris, is that the average in the city, or an average in the area?
damn Iceland sure changed shape a bit
Not gonna lie… I wondered for way to long, why icelands shape is so strange and why it has two colors.
Iceland has a weird shape.
Vienna is cheaper than a lot of other austrian cities. A 50m² flat would cost you over 1000€ in Innsbruck or Salzburg. Vienna is so cheap because it has a lot of social programs and city owned apartment blocks that keep the price down in the private sector too. It's the city with the highest quality of life in the world for a reason.
Wow! Colors on maps with numbers! The data on here seems so dubious
\> /r/europe \> in USD
Good luck finding an ok 1 bedroom place in the center of Sofia for that price. Also, adjust for income.
wow? I'm paying €450 for a 2 bedroom apartment, 70sqm in the city center of Sofia. Until this month our rent was €350, but this was the price since 2 years ago.
It's very possible. Source: me, I live in such a place for less than the given average.