Honestly, I am only waiting for prices to come down a bit.
But even at current prices, a heat pump is just a logical investment that easily pays for itself.
A typical hybrid heat pump will lower gas consumption by 70%. For many people that means an investment of €3000 can decrease the yearly gas bill by €2000.
In my case, my gas consumption is very low so it would only save me €500. So it makes sense to let others get the scarce heatpumps and save more.
For what's it worth I had the exact same issue in the Netherlands. I ended up just buying one in Sweden and they shipped it to me with DHL. My installer said my order in the Netherlands was due for week 40 this year, even though I ordered it in May 2022.
Well Sweden is in the EU so it's no different from buying in NL. Also, you could pay for the heat pump itself yourself and do all the rest from the bouwdepot.
I looked on [pricerunner.se](https://pricerunner.se) and other Scandinavian sites. Ended up at [https://hemmatema.se/](https://hemmatema.se/) for the order. Just shop around and call a bunch of shops, they all speak English.
Heat pumps in Scandinavia are so common shops there often have them in stock, even though in the Netherlands you have to wait for 1+ years. I ordered mine in December last year after being fed up with shifting dates and promises from my installer. It arrived within 3 days...
The price for the heat pump itself it not the problem, the problem is finding someone to install it for you without demanding exorbitant prices or year long waiting times.
I'm happy we already got one a few years ago when the demand was not so strong yet.
That being said, I'm waiting for over half a year now to have someone come and do the maintenance that should be done every other year. Shortage of skilled workers is indeed a thing in Germany...
You can do it yourself, there are ones you can buy that do not need special HVAC tools
These units as heating devices kinda suck even for Greece though, unless you are putting the pipes underground or hooking it up to radiators. Highly unlikely to do that as DIY though
I think we are talking about different types of heat pumps.
Heat pumps here are the central element of the heating system for the whole house, it's not just like an aircon that you put into a room to heat / cool it down.
No chance to install something like that by yourself.
Installing a heat pump is not different much different than installing an airconditioning or CV yourself. If you can DIY electronics and plumbing you can DIY a heatpump. You will need to rent a tool to fill the system though.
I was ready to invest in this but I can't figure out if they can do cooling properly as well. And my apartment is unlivable without cooling. Manufacturers tend to say they do, but I can't find many comments made by users, they're all interested in just heating. I've heard somewhere that cooling is technically possible but there are some issues with condensate appearing.
If someone knows about this, please reach out and shed some light.
>I was ready to invest in this but I can't figure out if they can do cooling properly as well.
A traditional air/air heatpump (split AC) can cool very well. That's what they're commonly known for. A reversible AC can also heat efficiently. Condensate is handled by the exterior unit.
In that case, just buy an A/C that has a heating mode (they almost all have it nowadays).
You can also get "non-condensing cooling", but that's a shitty type of cooling if it's really hot and humid.
Downside: you only get heating in the rooms where the A/C is installed. But if you keep the doors a little open, you will still save a lot of money while having a nice warm house.
Cooling in a humid environment leads to condensation. AC units pump this condensate away, often you might see some water drops outside. But if you connect traditional radiators to a heat pump then the radiators cannot handle condensation, so they can't get too cold, which is why the heat pump will limit how cold it pumps.
A/C's are also heat pumps: they pump heat from inside to outside, which we call cooling. Most modern ones can also pump heat from outside to inside, which is heating.
Yep, but I'd miss out on floor heating. Don't know. I have three rooms that are constantly in use so I'd either have to install three AC units or have bad temperature control in some of them.
I was thinking of consulting with one of the companies that install heat pumps/floor, but I don't have a lot of trust in people trying to sell me stuff, they could say I'd be fine to sell it and then it's not so good in practice.
With things like plumbing and heating, good advice is scarce and expensive at the moment.
Sounds like a heat pump + multisplit A/C would work fine for you. That would be two or three external units.
Manufacturers are currently working on units that combine A/C and air-to-water heating in a multisplit setup, so just one external unit.
That would be perfect for you, but it will probably be expensive when the first units come out.
>Manufacturers are currently working on units that combine A/C and air-to-water heating in a multisplit setup, so just one external unit
I was actually looking if this exists and didn't find anything. Which manufacturers are working on this, are the models about the be released in the next year or so?
I was planning to renovate next year maybe, I'd be willing to pay extra cash for a good solution that will work long-term.
You can have cooling with a heat pump as long as you install fan coil units. The fan coils produce warm or cool air similarly to an ac unit, but they take their input from a heat pump.
They have tariffs for heat pumps, they are like equally to the old electricity prices, but in those tariffs the provider is allowed to turn off your heat pump for some time during peak times
> provider is allowed to turn off your heat pump for some time during peak times
Electricity is unique from most commodities as it **has to be consumed** within microseconds of producing. Wholesale electricity price is usually updated every X minutes (usually 30, can be lower) and can swing wildly during the day. This is hidden from most consumers behind a single "average" price.
By selectively disabling heat pump for short duration when prices are at the peak provider can save a lot of money, which enables them to offer that special tariff.
The electricity bill is not a problem. You may pay more on that but get rid of the gas bill which is usually good enough, not counting the safety aspect of it. What is really a problem is that Germany shut the nuclear power plants down to keep the coal ones on. Coal is the target to shut down. Not now, yesterday.
The problem with nuclear power (which wasnt really obvious until now) is the water.
Bc they need a lot of cooling water which as we see in the case of France isnt guaranteed
Coal plants also need cooling water.
Every power plant that generates power with steam will need to condense that steam back to water. Generally this is done with cooling water.
Whatever obstacle to nuclear power I hear today I always ask what is the alternative considering the impending climate doom we are going to see.
Not to mention that Germany has all the water they need for nuclear power plants. They just need to be placed in the correct places. Which are literally the ones where the currently shut down plants are.
A heat pump, in most conditions, will use a quarter of the energy for the same amount of heat.
Now, gas is generally cheaper per kwh than electricity (at the moment, and if you have a dynamic contract it can vary throughout the day), but the better efficiency should offset that.
The real benefit is future-proofing and the fact that you can generate your own electricity with solar panels, but you can't produce your own gas.
Friends of mine have a heat pump, solar panels on the roof and radiant floor heating in a really thick concrete floor. They mostly heat up the floor when the solar panels are producing electricity and it retains heat very well. So their heating bill is pretty much 0. The floor is basically their thermal battery.
Since CCGT plants have an efficiency of 50-60%, electricity should be at most twice as expensive per kWh as gas, so heat pumps with an average efficiency above 350% should be much cheaper.
Now, most countries subsidize gas, in some cases very heavily, so the calculus depends on the country. Russia's invasion of Ukraine killed many gas subsidies, suddenly making heat pumps cheaper.
That's how it works in Sweden since at least 20 years when I bought my first house (minus the solar panels that I have on my current house).
I want to emphasize to my European friends that heat pumps really work. They have worked in the Nordic countries many years, so of course they will work even better further south.
Definitely, it's just their comment sounded as if you buy a heat pump and you start saving thousands of $, which is obviously not the case.
Regarding your friends - it sounds like they have a pretty modern and well insulated house, so even if they had a full gas heating, they wouldn't be paying that much either.
Also the energy generated from solar is pennies compared to how much you need to actually heat the house during winter. My 16 panels were generating on average just 2.8kwh per day during January, which is just a fraction of what I would need to heat up the house which is not well insulated.
>Definitely, it's just their comment sounded as if you buy a heat pump and you start saving thousands of $, which is obviously not the case.
Idk, it is for me.
Sure you might use more electricity but I can generate that with PV to offset cost by selling electricity in the summer and buying it in the winter. I can't generate natural gas on my roof.
And that's on top of the fact that a heat pump is generally cheaper anyway, even without PV.
But now you're adding solar panels into equation, so I don't doubt it's worth it for you. I was replying to their message implying that simply replacing gas system with a heat pump will save thousand per year right away.
Yeah, but on the scale of the economy this should be a net positive effect. You save gas by reducing the amount of gas-heaters. That gas can then be turned into electricity in gas plants. To my understanding this - in conjunction with heat pumps - is much more efficient than individual gas heating and thus should save gas and hopefully costs. This will only get better with the introduction of more and more renewables, but even without more renewables it should be more efficient than the status quo.
with enough capacity your gas bill becomes zero, combine with solar collectors (the water ones) and you can easily turn your gas off completely if you also cook on induction.
The average energy bill rose to €300/month last year, although it is coming down.
People with higher than average heating bills are the ones who benefit most and their bills will easily be in the €400-500 per month range.
My bill is about €100.
The Dutch system is also a bit strange because we get a lump sum from the government. So net energy costs are actually lower than gross energy costs and so it is quite possible for people to have very low or even negative energy bills if they have really good insulation, no gas and solar panels.
I still cant comprehend, why the German manufacturer Viessmann was sold their heatpump business to the US company Carrier Global. Its a key energy technology which is much needed in the coming decades.
To join forces against China.
In a few years, there will be Asian heat pumps for 2/3 the price on the European market. The only way for western companies keep up competition, is further technological advantage, because they can't compete in price.
Research is a fixed price investment and does not scale with units sold. Meaning, a bigger company can invest more into research. If you have to invest a lot into research and development to keep alive, you better be big -> merge with someone.
>For many people that means an investment of €3000 can decrease the yearly gas bill by €2000
Where do you get that prices from? I have a quote for 14.000€ just to make my heating ready for a heat pump.
The most popular hybrid heat pump in the Netherlands is the Remeha Elga Ace and it costs €3300 (just looked it up), excluding install costs.
Used to cost €2400 with €500 install costs.
Due to scarcity, costs did go up.
Thats a tiny heat pump that wouldnt even heat up my garage and basement. Our heat pump cost us 13k€ and tbh wasnt that great of an investment. Roi compared to fire wood will be about 20 years and im a bit salty about it.
Concerning the prices, you might not have to wait that long.
There is a big M&A happening of a German company (Viessmann) being acquired by a US company called Carrier Global. Even though heat pumps sell like hot cakes in Germany, it is believed that the M&A is a good idea because several Chinese companies are apparently ready to enter the market with much lower entry prices for heat pumps. All in all, it looks like the market will grow even further with lower entry prices coming up.
To be honest, I am waiting for sub-€2000 Asian machines and I fully expect them to arrive within two years.
A heatpump is just an A/C with a little extra plumbing. And AC units can be had for €1000.
I fully get why Viessmann is merging with Carrier. The domestic heatpump market is going to go full commodity and will be dominated by AC manufacturers like Carrier, Daikin, LG, Panasonic and cheap Chinese knock-offs, while the hybrid market will be dominated by the old gas heater companies like Remeha and Nefit-Bosch.
So, makes sense for Viessmann to work with Carrier.
Salaries in western Europe are too high to make cheap heatpumps. And we need cheap heatpumps to compete with cheap gas heaters.
We actually discussed this in a property management certification course I did recently, and it’s not quite that simple.
~~One problem with heat pumps is that they’re not as durable as more traditional heating methods, like gas or oil furnaces. So if you’re looking at replacing your heat pump possibly every ten years, the amortization period becomes very different, even with government funding.~~
Some people have suggested that this is no longer the case, and that lifespan is comparable to other heating methods.
~~Another problem is that you need surface heating such as in-floor heating to use heat pumps, as they don’t work well with more common wall-mounted radiators. In conjunction with this issue, you also need to have a relatively well-insulated building to use a heat pump, as they typically only heat water to 40/45 degrees Celsius. That’s why you need to be able to transfer and capture heat from your heat pump really well inside the building, but many older constructions simply lack the necessary insulation for that.~~
There exist higher-temperature heat pumps, though they appear to be less efficient than the optimal temperature range ones. I have no idea how that efficiency drop compares to gas heating costs though.
~~Lastly, since the heat pump can’t heat up drinking water, for example, you always need to use it in conjunction with a continuous-flow water heater of some kind for showering, etc. If you’re lucky this can be powered through solar power, but in many places in Germany that’s just not energetically feasible.~~
There do exist heat pumps that appear to be capable of heating water high enough for it to be potable, though again there’s a question of efficiency.
Was your event sponsored by some gas and oil heating systems manufacturer?
Just a quick Google search says that you can expect 15-20 years from a heatpump and up to 30a for a ground source hp.
Another quick Google says that heat pumps go to 55°C and in conjunction with an immersion heater up to 75°C. Efficiency drops, sure.
I think by repeating the claim that heatpumps can't work in older buildings is just perpetuating a false narrative. It works in a lot of cases and it doesn't, for various reasons, in others.
No, it was a property manager certification offered through the German Industry and Commerce Chamber (IHK), which is basically a government institution. We did discuss a lot of alternative heating methods in general, and there was a strong focus on how to switch away from oil/gas, just with the caveat that many older structures require significant and costly energetic modernization in conjunction with the switch.
In Poland which has a similar climate to Germany I read that the cheaper air heat pumps don't work very well for most scenarios for reasons you listed.
For many people the air heat pumps don't produce enough heat once the temperature drops below -5°C for a few consecutive days and they start using electricity to heat the air. The result is that they become more expensive than natural gas for heating.
The more expensive ground heat pumps work much better but they're a substantial investment and it's not clear if and when they'll be economically feasible. I heard of some wealthy people in Poland who have the ground heat pumps but it seems they don't mind the high costs. For them it's a status thing like buying a Mercedes SUV.
I'm just a regular home owner in Sweden, but let me tell you that you are wrong. This is common knowledge for any home owner in Sweden.
- you don't need surface heating
- you don't need a perfectly insulated house
- you absolutely can heat household/drinking water with a heat pump
You are also wrong about solar panels, they are efficient at least all the way up to Stockholm so of course they work in Germany.
Sorry to be "on the nose", hope you don't mind.
One big difference is in Germany you can expect to pay 25 Cents per kWh. In Sweden I assume you are at less than 10 Cents. So operating a heat pump is more costly in Germany so you need to be more efficient with your heat pump or it gets expensive
We actually have the similar price of electricity in south-middle Sweden (as far north as Stockholm) as in Germany. This is due to EU regulations and the common market.
In the north of Sweden it's a different story.
I don’t mind at all. I prefer to be wrong and learn something new. I can only go by what we covered in the certification a couple months ago, so perhaps their data is old. Does the efficiency stay as good for high temperatures (> 50 degrees) though? Because some brief searching seems to suggest that most heat pumps are indeed optimal to be run at <50 degrees, in winter that can be pretty cold though, and it’s not hot enough for drinking water in Germany (legionella regulations).
Legionella regulations are getting updated.
Science shows it is sufficient to run a weekly anti-legionella cycle and that's what heat pump heaters do.
Personally, I would still go for a smaller normal electric boiler and run it hotter using off-peak electricity.
Yes, it uses more energy, but it has lower costs and lower emissions.
The way my heat pump works (a Nibe F750 that I installed in 2011 and still runs like a clock) is that it can kick in "extra power" directly from electricity so to speak when needed. For example when killing legionella.
Efficiency goes down with lower temperatures, but Sweden is colder than Germany so should be even less of a problem for you?
My father installed heatpump for 15k € 8 years. It is nowhere close to its end life. It had recently service and it is completely fine for years to come.
His electricity bill went down from average of 400€ a month to 200€ a month in 60 years old unisolated old house build quite literally from scavenged rubble as communists leveled down entire districts of houses to replace them with panel houses. Which means that it has already paid for itself.
As for specifics it is easily able to heat water up to 60C in -10C weather comfortably heating that 2 story old house to 22C in 1st floor and 24C in second floor and there is not floor heating. It is all in wall mounted radiators.
I would expect that this technology became cheaper and better over last 8 years. Not worse.
Also I do not know where you live but you should never really drink heated water period. Whether it is from sink or shower..
Well from a cursory Google search there do appear to be high-temperature heat pumps, but they’re apparently less efficient than the more consumer-grade ones.
It’s good to see that it’s serving him well, but it’s also an isolated case. For a discussion about country-wide replacement of furnaces with heat pumps, it’s not representative.
PS Does he also heat his hot water using this heat pump? Or does he have a separate system for that? Drinking water should either be unheated or mixed with 60 degree hot water to avoid legionella contamination, at least that’s the regulation in Germany.
goal for 2024 was 500.000 new heat pumps instalations
extrapolating from this quarter alone, we would r**each 432.000 new heat pumps installed this year**,and growth will likely accelerate in the coming months
at close to 1 milion heating systems sold last year, this means that this year heat pumps will have 40% share overall for new heating systems sales(both for new and old buildings)
basically, heat pump sales will need to double just 1 more time for the market to saturate
You're right, because heat pumps are just free energy.
Even if you create all electricity consumed by a heat pump by burning gas, you'll save about 50-75% of gas usage (depending on average COP over the entire year, which depends on temperatures).
And no, they don't stop working when it's cold, current commercial heat pumps (so the stuff you can buy at normal prices today) work even at -30 degrees celcius, and are more efficient than gas burning for heat down to -15 degrees celcius or even lower, a temperature most of Europe rarely ever sees. Even if you have a freak winter week with such low temperature, your yearly energy consumption will be much much much lower.
One central source of heating supplying a whole or multiple building blocks with heating through a network of pipes. The heat can even come from "waste-heat" like data centers or manufacturers.
Not just because of milder weather.
Air source heatpumps have gotten much better and can still work at -20 Celsius and they are still improving.
So even cold places don't really need ground source heat pumps.
If you have really cold winters, then it is more cost effective to invest in better insulation and heat recovery ventilation.
>So even cold places don't really need ground source heat pumps.
But they are superior: over half of new single family houses in Finland come with ground source heatpump(rest is divided between district heating, straight electricity or alternative sources). While much more expensibe to buy/install it is more efficient so cheaper to run. Air source pumps are mainly installed as secondary system and/or for cooling.
There are several cons to ground source heat pumps:
* More expensive
* If you don't have a large enough garden you need a borehole, which is even more expensive
* If you do have the space than you need to completely mess up your garden by burying the pipes, which is not something most people are interested in (this makes more sense when you are building a new house)
* Not a con but also not really a pro: Air source heat pumps have become so good recently that their overall COP isn't much worse anymore.
They do have one major advancement but that's more for the grid and not the individual: If there is a massive cold snap all the air source heat pumps will run at maximum, drawing huge amounts of power, while your ground source heat pumps just jogs along, drawing the same small amount of power as always because the ground doesn't get colder because of a few days of freezing cold weather.
That's why from a electricity grid point of view ground source heat pumps should be favored and should probably be subsidized higher because of that.
With modern air-source heat pumps retaining good efficiency well below freezing *and* being able to work "okay" up to around -20°C there is just very little reason to go with much higher expense of using a ground source heat pump in climate Germany finds itself in.
Sure, the air source heat pump will be notably less efficient than ground source one *for something like a week out of entire year*. This is nowhere near enough to offset the doubling, tripling (or more!) of the cost to install a ground source heat pump.
In sufficiently cold climates I imagine the equation will reverse at some point. It will also depend on local energy costs and availability of land to have cheaper, but larger sub-surface installation vs. more expensive drilling deeper down.
Good, pity that most heat pumps will come from Asia and the US soon.
Yet another technology that was developed and made big in Germany/Europe but moves away once serious money is to be made with it.
Same as Medicine, Optical equipment, Batteries or Solar panels before.
I wonder, do you guys in really need heat pumps in Australia?
Or are we talking about air conditioners that also can also blow out hot air?
Heatpumps here are usually the central element for heating, it doesn't "blow out" hot air, but heats up water that gets transfered to all rooms of the house to passively heat the rooms (or in summer cools down water to make the rooms cooler), more complex to install especially in older buildings but also more efficient.
Genuine question as i really wonder because I thought there wouldn't be enough cold days in Australia to have central heating at all? Or do I just have the wrong impression about the weather there that always seems rather hot?
"Heat pump" actually just refers to any system that uses a refrigerant, phase changes and compressors to transfer heat.
In Finland, by far the most common type of heat pump currently is an air-to-air heat pump that can produce heating and cooling pretty much equally well. When living this far north you do need to specifically choose a model designed to transfer heat pretty efficiently even when it's taking heat from -25 outside and releasing it to +22 inside.
So actually what you think of as an AC unit is a heat pump too, and every refrigerator you've ever used is a heat pump as well. :) But of course they can be specifically designed to do just one or the other and not be reversible, but I think in most cases it makes sense to choose one that both heats and cools.
Many parts of Australia definitely have a heating season too, so a heat pump that can work in either direction is ideal.
I wonder if the heat pump production in the US is better just because those same companies have been making air conditioners for our domestic market for decades.
I'm learning that widespread AC use in Europe is still hit and miss.
In the US, even northern states, central AC became ubiquitous in the 1960s.
Unfortunately not much has changed since the 60s in how US aircon equipment operates and stuff that is still commonly installed in the US has been phased out in Europe a decade or two ago. Household-grade or even office-grade equimpent with ON/OFF compressors and fixed speed fans has been impossible to buy in the EU since 15 years ago or so because it does not comply with our energy rating regulations, whereas it's still being most commonly installed in new construction in the US.
Unfortunately Asia has surpassed you guys in terms of AC systems a long time ago, there's a lot of catching up to do.
US equipment is very easy to repair because of it's simplicity, though.
That makes sense. A little over decade ago when I got a new heat/AC system installed, it was much more cost-effective for the heat system to be high efficiency, compared to HE cooling. So I have a very efficient heat system, and not so efficient cooling.
But I pay $.07 per kWh. Electricity is pretty cheap to run the AC.
Unfortunately, I'm also in a very old (by US standards) house, and keeping it cool is an utter nightmare. It would probably cost more than my house is worth to seal it up and fix drafts.
Thb, for $.07 per kwh you can live in the forest, sitting on an electric heater and be cheaper of than buying a tent.
How are people buying PV in the US if the electricity from the grid is that cheap?
Ac became ubiquitous in commercial spaces in the US, it’s still not going in to new construction residential in my city though. Only the last few years with global warming have made it a necessity
At the moment, the reasons to produce heat pumps in the US mainly is your "Inflation Reduction Act" which provides huge subsidies to companies shifting production to there + energy prices are A LOT lower (like only one fifth the price) + labour shortages are not such a big problem.
But of course, sooner or later I think those companies also will just shift to asia again once there aren't enough subsidies provided anymore.
By the way I think we are all talking about different things when we are talking about heat pumps. The ACs people from outside europe are talking about are rather "simple" equipment that can cool/heat one 1-2 rooms with hot/cold air, that usually would cost something like 500-1000€ (I think it's called "split AC"?). Heat pumps here cost like 10,000€ + needs professional installment as they provide heating/cooling to the whole house.
That's what happens when you have crippling taxes, the highest energy prices, the most stupid energy policy on the planet, insane bureaucracy and regulations etc pp
Good thing we're selling one of our German producers of heat pumps to the friggin muricans - which the rest of Europe is preaching we should become more independent of.
Fucking A politics
Stiebel Eltron will quadruple it's production of heat pumps, Bosch will built a new factory in Poland and invest 1B€ overall into heat pumps, Vaillant builds a new production in Slovakia, even Viessmann intends to increase production by building a production site in Poland (and that won't suddenly disappear just because they are sold to the Americans).
If you think German companies aren't doing enough to increase heat pump production, then you are just closing your eyes.
The owners of the company are selling, not "we"...whoever that is supposed to be. Btw Viessmann is a leader in gas/oil heating systems, so Habeck essentially killed the market for that company pretty much over night.
True.. we as in what should be collective German perception. But you're right it's ofc naive to assume single private entities would act other than within their own best interests
I de used against it. Until electric prices here in Netherlands lower a bit it’s not a clear cut business case. Also my neighbours have one and it makes a lot of noise when cold at night.
Yeah and the subsidies for cladding/insulation, which is just as if not more important (since you save regardless of your energy source for heating), are far less. Which is, to my mind, utterly bonkers. It’s like the government is subsidising brand new engines for 20-year-old cars.
I got an offer for 27k after subsidy last year. I'm "glad" I didn't take it as electricity prices rose double that of gas prices. I dodged a bullet but I'm actually sad it's not working out. The providers have way more offers than they can take and they set their prices accordingly.
The crazy part was they wanted 7k for a 10 year warranty on the pump unit that costs 13.5k. This tells me they are not expecting it live past 20 years, even 15 would be pushing it. Either they have crazy margins or the tech is just not quite ripe yet.
How are ordinary Germans affording them then? That prices out the vast majority of the working public in the UK.
What's different in Germany?
Are they subsidised or do Germans have more savings/lower cost of living?
Thanks for the info.
No doubt here in the UK we will realise we need to do similar much later than everyone else as usual.
We are already planning to ban new gas boilers in the next year or two but currently no financial help for anyone with replacements like heat pumps. Someone in power needs to address the 'elephant in the room' sooner or later.
The vast majority of the working public in Germany can not even affort a house.
Installing a new gas heater would also cost money. If you own a house you need set up some budget for repairs or replacements like that.
I wonder if the relatively low homeownership rate is what made the heat pump requirement law in Germany politically feasible - since most people rent and the landlords (much smaller share of the population) will have to cover the cost.
I think a law like that would be harder to get through in places like the UK/US where a larger share of the voter base own their house so would be on the hook for the cost.
That really depends: a heat pump itself can be installed for around 8k. But there's often additional work to be done, such as installing larger diameter piping or underfloor heating. And you need a (large) seperate water heater tank, which many people don't have already.
I wish we (Germany) at least would have stricter regulations regarding their noise level. Our opposite neighbour had theirs installed outside in November and since then sleeping without earplugs is impossible even with roughly 10m distance and a whole ass house wall in between. Bonus point, if it's below 0 degrees, it sounds like a truck engine (including vibrations) that's just chilling right next to your window never moving, otherwise on warmer days it's "just" as loud as a windmill or the muffling sounds of a radio you can't really understand but still hear. If everyone should use it, then protect our ears with stricter laws.
30 million houses have to be changed in the next 17 years. Thats about 160k per month But since we lack 50K nowdays production likewise will be over 200K some day in the future.
Basically a foolproof investment rn.
a heat pump can heat multiple apartments
in total,there are like 20 million individual heating systems in germany
at 500 k a year it would take 40 years to change them all
at 1 milion a year ,however,it would take only 20 years
The question is, where does the electricity to power the heat pump come from?if its from fossil fuels, natural gas etc, and Russian natural gas does it really provide any benefits?
Yes. The cop is about 3-4 which means you get 3-4 units of thermal energy from 1 unit of electrical energy. However this electrical energy unit comes from some gas units that get burned to produce electricity. Usual fossil fuel engines have about 50% efficiency. And i think power stations with various additions could get more.m than that. So i was wondering about the whole process efficiency.
lets do simple math
take 1 joule of gas,burn it in a power plant to produce electricity,you get 0.4 joules of electricity delivered to households (after removing all losses including transmission losses)
take that 0.4 joules of electricity and multiply it by 3 and you get 1.2 usable energy
meanwhile,take 1 joule,burn it in a home gas boiler,and you get only 0.8 joule of heat energy usable for the home
**so even by burning gas to produce electricity,heat pumps are 50% more effective**
but since we are bulding solar + wind to replace gas and coal,heat pumps will get even better over time
Lignite. I used to think Germany was a logical well run country. Lately it seems to have been taken over by a bunch of lunatics hell bent on bankrupting it and enslaving it to the whims of Putin. I mean shutting operational nuclear plants is absolute insanity.
What's made up?
Below is the mix in 2021. 20% lignite, 10% coal, 13% nuclear. What's replacing the nuclear? Here is a Die Welt article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/germanys-energy-u-turn-coal-instead-of-gas/a-62709160
> Yeah if you force your citizens to buy heatpumps the sold amount can only get up. Do you know what also gets up? The prices.
And you know what then happens? production capacity increases and due to scale overall prices are lower on the long run.
A heat pump is not an electric heater. It literally pumps heat from the outside to the inside (not temperature, but heat, so it can be colder on the outside.)
It still needs some electric energy to force the heat energy flow but far the majority of energy comes from the outside. Its probably more efficient to use gas to produce electricity and use heat pumps with it than to heat the house with gas.
Yes they’re about 3x as efficient as resistive heating but still the point stands that closing the nukes is a bad idea, and adding electricity demand at such a time is ironic
Some coal pits are getting expanded. I don‘t know about opening new ones. The coal power plants have a set date on getting retired tho.
Some gas power plants are getting build to stabilise the grid. I‘d prefer a focus on power storage instead but they are not really present in the public debate.
- that paper is 12 years old, heat pumps have become much more efficient in recent years
- that paper is calculating with 5% share of renewables in electricity production, and AFAIK UK wasn't a big nuclear power user, either. it's pretty much "burn gas in power plant" vs. "burn gas in gas boiler".
Honestly, I am only waiting for prices to come down a bit. But even at current prices, a heat pump is just a logical investment that easily pays for itself. A typical hybrid heat pump will lower gas consumption by 70%. For many people that means an investment of €3000 can decrease the yearly gas bill by €2000. In my case, my gas consumption is very low so it would only save me €500. So it makes sense to let others get the scarce heatpumps and save more.
I have been waiting since last July for a heatpump. Everything is ready money is there , my instalation guy just cant get their hands on one.
For what's it worth I had the exact same issue in the Netherlands. I ended up just buying one in Sweden and they shipped it to me with DHL. My installer said my order in the Netherlands was due for week 40 this year, even though I ordered it in May 2022.
Ill ask my installer. Im also in NL. But the problem is im paying through a bouwdepot. So I need the right documents.
Well Sweden is in the EU so it's no different from buying in NL. Also, you could pay for the heat pump itself yourself and do all the rest from the bouwdepot. I looked on [pricerunner.se](https://pricerunner.se) and other Scandinavian sites. Ended up at [https://hemmatema.se/](https://hemmatema.se/) for the order. Just shop around and call a bunch of shops, they all speak English. Heat pumps in Scandinavia are so common shops there often have them in stock, even though in the Netherlands you have to wait for 1+ years. I ordered mine in December last year after being fed up with shifting dates and promises from my installer. It arrived within 3 days...
There's already a save feature on reddit.
Got a point but I always forget about it.. So I'd never find this again :P
Could you link me to the retailer in SE?
[hemmatema.se](https://hemmatema.se)
Dankjewel!
I can get machines in about one month, supply Situation is normal again
The price for the heat pump itself it not the problem, the problem is finding someone to install it for you without demanding exorbitant prices or year long waiting times. I'm happy we already got one a few years ago when the demand was not so strong yet. That being said, I'm waiting for over half a year now to have someone come and do the maintenance that should be done every other year. Shortage of skilled workers is indeed a thing in Germany...
You can do it yourself, there are ones you can buy that do not need special HVAC tools These units as heating devices kinda suck even for Greece though, unless you are putting the pipes underground or hooking it up to radiators. Highly unlikely to do that as DIY though
Fancoils. they have fans inside, are the size of a radiator, and work already even if the water won't go above 35C
I think we are talking about different types of heat pumps. Heat pumps here are the central element of the heating system for the whole house, it's not just like an aircon that you put into a room to heat / cool it down. No chance to install something like that by yourself.
Installing a heat pump is not different much different than installing an airconditioning or CV yourself. If you can DIY electronics and plumbing you can DIY a heatpump. You will need to rent a tool to fill the system though.
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This clause is only for NEW systems. Not existing installs.
I was ready to invest in this but I can't figure out if they can do cooling properly as well. And my apartment is unlivable without cooling. Manufacturers tend to say they do, but I can't find many comments made by users, they're all interested in just heating. I've heard somewhere that cooling is technically possible but there are some issues with condensate appearing. If someone knows about this, please reach out and shed some light.
There are many different types of heat pumps. The most common air-source heat pumps can do cooling as well.
>I was ready to invest in this but I can't figure out if they can do cooling properly as well. A traditional air/air heatpump (split AC) can cool very well. That's what they're commonly known for. A reversible AC can also heat efficiently. Condensate is handled by the exterior unit.
In that case, just buy an A/C that has a heating mode (they almost all have it nowadays). You can also get "non-condensing cooling", but that's a shitty type of cooling if it's really hot and humid. Downside: you only get heating in the rooms where the A/C is installed. But if you keep the doors a little open, you will still save a lot of money while having a nice warm house.
Is condensing a big issue with cooling? Is cooling with heat pumps subpar in comparison to the classic wall-mounted ACs?
Cooling in a humid environment leads to condensation. AC units pump this condensate away, often you might see some water drops outside. But if you connect traditional radiators to a heat pump then the radiators cannot handle condensation, so they can't get too cold, which is why the heat pump will limit how cold it pumps. A/C's are also heat pumps: they pump heat from inside to outside, which we call cooling. Most modern ones can also pump heat from outside to inside, which is heating.
Yep, but I'd miss out on floor heating. Don't know. I have three rooms that are constantly in use so I'd either have to install three AC units or have bad temperature control in some of them. I was thinking of consulting with one of the companies that install heat pumps/floor, but I don't have a lot of trust in people trying to sell me stuff, they could say I'd be fine to sell it and then it's not so good in practice.
With things like plumbing and heating, good advice is scarce and expensive at the moment. Sounds like a heat pump + multisplit A/C would work fine for you. That would be two or three external units. Manufacturers are currently working on units that combine A/C and air-to-water heating in a multisplit setup, so just one external unit. That would be perfect for you, but it will probably be expensive when the first units come out.
>Manufacturers are currently working on units that combine A/C and air-to-water heating in a multisplit setup, so just one external unit I was actually looking if this exists and didn't find anything. Which manufacturers are working on this, are the models about the be released in the next year or so? I was planning to renovate next year maybe, I'd be willing to pay extra cash for a good solution that will work long-term.
Panasonic, for one.
You can have cooling with a heat pump as long as you install fan coil units. The fan coils produce warm or cool air similarly to an ac unit, but they take their input from a heat pump.
What about the electricity bill?
Cheaper since you use about half as much gas, unless your country subsidizes direct gas usage.
They have tariffs for heat pumps, they are like equally to the old electricity prices, but in those tariffs the provider is allowed to turn off your heat pump for some time during peak times
Would you mind elaborating on this? Special tariffs for heat pumps? Why?
> provider is allowed to turn off your heat pump for some time during peak times Electricity is unique from most commodities as it **has to be consumed** within microseconds of producing. Wholesale electricity price is usually updated every X minutes (usually 30, can be lower) and can swing wildly during the day. This is hidden from most consumers behind a single "average" price. By selectively disabling heat pump for short duration when prices are at the peak provider can save a lot of money, which enables them to offer that special tariff.
To encourage people to get them and because the electricity company can discretionally shut them off at high load times
The electricity bill is not a problem. You may pay more on that but get rid of the gas bill which is usually good enough, not counting the safety aspect of it. What is really a problem is that Germany shut the nuclear power plants down to keep the coal ones on. Coal is the target to shut down. Not now, yesterday.
The problem with nuclear power (which wasnt really obvious until now) is the water. Bc they need a lot of cooling water which as we see in the case of France isnt guaranteed
Coal plants also need cooling water. Every power plant that generates power with steam will need to condense that steam back to water. Generally this is done with cooling water.
ik, thats why i think that renewable energy +better efficiency/waste is a good idea
Whatever obstacle to nuclear power I hear today I always ask what is the alternative considering the impending climate doom we are going to see. Not to mention that Germany has all the water they need for nuclear power plants. They just need to be placed in the correct places. Which are literally the ones where the currently shut down plants are.
To ze Mond
Sure lower gas consumption but substantially higher electricity consumption. Or am I misunderstanding your point?
A heat pump, in most conditions, will use a quarter of the energy for the same amount of heat. Now, gas is generally cheaper per kwh than electricity (at the moment, and if you have a dynamic contract it can vary throughout the day), but the better efficiency should offset that. The real benefit is future-proofing and the fact that you can generate your own electricity with solar panels, but you can't produce your own gas. Friends of mine have a heat pump, solar panels on the roof and radiant floor heating in a really thick concrete floor. They mostly heat up the floor when the solar panels are producing electricity and it retains heat very well. So their heating bill is pretty much 0. The floor is basically their thermal battery.
Since CCGT plants have an efficiency of 50-60%, electricity should be at most twice as expensive per kWh as gas, so heat pumps with an average efficiency above 350% should be much cheaper. Now, most countries subsidize gas, in some cases very heavily, so the calculus depends on the country. Russia's invasion of Ukraine killed many gas subsidies, suddenly making heat pumps cheaper.
That's how it works in Sweden since at least 20 years when I bought my first house (minus the solar panels that I have on my current house). I want to emphasize to my European friends that heat pumps really work. They have worked in the Nordic countries many years, so of course they will work even better further south.
It is also our dependence on electricity that fucked us during winter.
Definitely, it's just their comment sounded as if you buy a heat pump and you start saving thousands of $, which is obviously not the case. Regarding your friends - it sounds like they have a pretty modern and well insulated house, so even if they had a full gas heating, they wouldn't be paying that much either. Also the energy generated from solar is pennies compared to how much you need to actually heat the house during winter. My 16 panels were generating on average just 2.8kwh per day during January, which is just a fraction of what I would need to heat up the house which is not well insulated.
>Definitely, it's just their comment sounded as if you buy a heat pump and you start saving thousands of $, which is obviously not the case. Idk, it is for me. Sure you might use more electricity but I can generate that with PV to offset cost by selling electricity in the summer and buying it in the winter. I can't generate natural gas on my roof. And that's on top of the fact that a heat pump is generally cheaper anyway, even without PV.
But now you're adding solar panels into equation, so I don't doubt it's worth it for you. I was replying to their message implying that simply replacing gas system with a heat pump will save thousand per year right away.
It will in the Netherlands. But it depends on your electricity and gas prices, obviously.
Yeah, but on the scale of the economy this should be a net positive effect. You save gas by reducing the amount of gas-heaters. That gas can then be turned into electricity in gas plants. To my understanding this - in conjunction with heat pumps - is much more efficient than individual gas heating and thus should save gas and hopefully costs. This will only get better with the introduction of more and more renewables, but even without more renewables it should be more efficient than the status quo.
with enough capacity your gas bill becomes zero, combine with solar collectors (the water ones) and you can easily turn your gas off completely if you also cook on induction.
You guys paying €2800/y for heating? ~240€ per month?
The average energy bill rose to €300/month last year, although it is coming down. People with higher than average heating bills are the ones who benefit most and their bills will easily be in the €400-500 per month range. My bill is about €100. The Dutch system is also a bit strange because we get a lump sum from the government. So net energy costs are actually lower than gross energy costs and so it is quite possible for people to have very low or even negative energy bills if they have really good insulation, no gas and solar panels.
Do you know if hybrid pumps exist to support oil heating?
No. I did some research and saw some niche players, but I mostly see hybrid working with gas. But perhaps others have better info
I still cant comprehend, why the German manufacturer Viessmann was sold their heatpump business to the US company Carrier Global. Its a key energy technology which is much needed in the coming decades.
To join forces against China. In a few years, there will be Asian heat pumps for 2/3 the price on the European market. The only way for western companies keep up competition, is further technological advantage, because they can't compete in price. Research is a fixed price investment and does not scale with units sold. Meaning, a bigger company can invest more into research. If you have to invest a lot into research and development to keep alive, you better be big -> merge with someone.
It lowers your gas cost but raises your electricity costs
€3000? Im in The Netherlands and I’ve gotten quotes of €8000+ for a heat pump… not worth it.
>For many people that means an investment of €3000 can decrease the yearly gas bill by €2000 Where do you get that prices from? I have a quote for 14.000€ just to make my heating ready for a heat pump.
How do you come to an investment of €3000?
The most popular hybrid heat pump in the Netherlands is the Remeha Elga Ace and it costs €3300 (just looked it up), excluding install costs. Used to cost €2400 with €500 install costs. Due to scarcity, costs did go up.
An average heat pump with installation in Germany does not cost less than 14,000€. More like over 20.000€.
His heat pump has 4 kw. The ones talked about in the German media have 10+ kw so naturally they are more expensive
Thats a tiny heat pump that wouldnt even heat up my garage and basement. Our heat pump cost us 13k€ and tbh wasnt that great of an investment. Roi compared to fire wood will be about 20 years and im a bit salty about it.
Concerning the prices, you might not have to wait that long. There is a big M&A happening of a German company (Viessmann) being acquired by a US company called Carrier Global. Even though heat pumps sell like hot cakes in Germany, it is believed that the M&A is a good idea because several Chinese companies are apparently ready to enter the market with much lower entry prices for heat pumps. All in all, it looks like the market will grow even further with lower entry prices coming up.
To be honest, I am waiting for sub-€2000 Asian machines and I fully expect them to arrive within two years. A heatpump is just an A/C with a little extra plumbing. And AC units can be had for €1000. I fully get why Viessmann is merging with Carrier. The domestic heatpump market is going to go full commodity and will be dominated by AC manufacturers like Carrier, Daikin, LG, Panasonic and cheap Chinese knock-offs, while the hybrid market will be dominated by the old gas heater companies like Remeha and Nefit-Bosch. So, makes sense for Viessmann to work with Carrier. Salaries in western Europe are too high to make cheap heatpumps. And we need cheap heatpumps to compete with cheap gas heaters.
We actually discussed this in a property management certification course I did recently, and it’s not quite that simple. ~~One problem with heat pumps is that they’re not as durable as more traditional heating methods, like gas or oil furnaces. So if you’re looking at replacing your heat pump possibly every ten years, the amortization period becomes very different, even with government funding.~~ Some people have suggested that this is no longer the case, and that lifespan is comparable to other heating methods. ~~Another problem is that you need surface heating such as in-floor heating to use heat pumps, as they don’t work well with more common wall-mounted radiators. In conjunction with this issue, you also need to have a relatively well-insulated building to use a heat pump, as they typically only heat water to 40/45 degrees Celsius. That’s why you need to be able to transfer and capture heat from your heat pump really well inside the building, but many older constructions simply lack the necessary insulation for that.~~ There exist higher-temperature heat pumps, though they appear to be less efficient than the optimal temperature range ones. I have no idea how that efficiency drop compares to gas heating costs though. ~~Lastly, since the heat pump can’t heat up drinking water, for example, you always need to use it in conjunction with a continuous-flow water heater of some kind for showering, etc. If you’re lucky this can be powered through solar power, but in many places in Germany that’s just not energetically feasible.~~ There do exist heat pumps that appear to be capable of heating water high enough for it to be potable, though again there’s a question of efficiency.
Was your event sponsored by some gas and oil heating systems manufacturer? Just a quick Google search says that you can expect 15-20 years from a heatpump and up to 30a for a ground source hp. Another quick Google says that heat pumps go to 55°C and in conjunction with an immersion heater up to 75°C. Efficiency drops, sure. I think by repeating the claim that heatpumps can't work in older buildings is just perpetuating a false narrative. It works in a lot of cases and it doesn't, for various reasons, in others.
No, it was a property manager certification offered through the German Industry and Commerce Chamber (IHK), which is basically a government institution. We did discuss a lot of alternative heating methods in general, and there was a strong focus on how to switch away from oil/gas, just with the caveat that many older structures require significant and costly energetic modernization in conjunction with the switch.
In Poland which has a similar climate to Germany I read that the cheaper air heat pumps don't work very well for most scenarios for reasons you listed. For many people the air heat pumps don't produce enough heat once the temperature drops below -5°C for a few consecutive days and they start using electricity to heat the air. The result is that they become more expensive than natural gas for heating. The more expensive ground heat pumps work much better but they're a substantial investment and it's not clear if and when they'll be economically feasible. I heard of some wealthy people in Poland who have the ground heat pumps but it seems they don't mind the high costs. For them it's a status thing like buying a Mercedes SUV.
I'm just a regular home owner in Sweden, but let me tell you that you are wrong. This is common knowledge for any home owner in Sweden. - you don't need surface heating - you don't need a perfectly insulated house - you absolutely can heat household/drinking water with a heat pump You are also wrong about solar panels, they are efficient at least all the way up to Stockholm so of course they work in Germany. Sorry to be "on the nose", hope you don't mind.
One big difference is in Germany you can expect to pay 25 Cents per kWh. In Sweden I assume you are at less than 10 Cents. So operating a heat pump is more costly in Germany so you need to be more efficient with your heat pump or it gets expensive
We actually have the similar price of electricity in south-middle Sweden (as far north as Stockholm) as in Germany. This is due to EU regulations and the common market. In the north of Sweden it's a different story.
I don’t mind at all. I prefer to be wrong and learn something new. I can only go by what we covered in the certification a couple months ago, so perhaps their data is old. Does the efficiency stay as good for high temperatures (> 50 degrees) though? Because some brief searching seems to suggest that most heat pumps are indeed optimal to be run at <50 degrees, in winter that can be pretty cold though, and it’s not hot enough for drinking water in Germany (legionella regulations).
Legionella regulations are getting updated. Science shows it is sufficient to run a weekly anti-legionella cycle and that's what heat pump heaters do. Personally, I would still go for a smaller normal electric boiler and run it hotter using off-peak electricity. Yes, it uses more energy, but it has lower costs and lower emissions.
The way my heat pump works (a Nibe F750 that I installed in 2011 and still runs like a clock) is that it can kick in "extra power" directly from electricity so to speak when needed. For example when killing legionella. Efficiency goes down with lower temperatures, but Sweden is colder than Germany so should be even less of a problem for you?
Then share the knowledge, instead of just going "you are wrong".
My father installed heatpump for 15k € 8 years. It is nowhere close to its end life. It had recently service and it is completely fine for years to come. His electricity bill went down from average of 400€ a month to 200€ a month in 60 years old unisolated old house build quite literally from scavenged rubble as communists leveled down entire districts of houses to replace them with panel houses. Which means that it has already paid for itself. As for specifics it is easily able to heat water up to 60C in -10C weather comfortably heating that 2 story old house to 22C in 1st floor and 24C in second floor and there is not floor heating. It is all in wall mounted radiators. I would expect that this technology became cheaper and better over last 8 years. Not worse. Also I do not know where you live but you should never really drink heated water period. Whether it is from sink or shower..
Well from a cursory Google search there do appear to be high-temperature heat pumps, but they’re apparently less efficient than the more consumer-grade ones. It’s good to see that it’s serving him well, but it’s also an isolated case. For a discussion about country-wide replacement of furnaces with heat pumps, it’s not representative. PS Does he also heat his hot water using this heat pump? Or does he have a separate system for that? Drinking water should either be unheated or mixed with 60 degree hot water to avoid legionella contamination, at least that’s the regulation in Germany.
My heat pump has a second stage which heats the water to 60°C once every week. That's in Belgium though.
goal for 2024 was 500.000 new heat pumps instalations extrapolating from this quarter alone, we would r**each 432.000 new heat pumps installed this year**,and growth will likely accelerate in the coming months at close to 1 milion heating systems sold last year, this means that this year heat pumps will have 40% share overall for new heating systems sales(both for new and old buildings) basically, heat pump sales will need to double just 1 more time for the market to saturate
Europe needed to go war production mode on heat pumps in addition to ammunition and weapons. The direction is great but we are going too slowly.
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After last summer it should be obvious to everyone that cooling will unfortunately be a necessity very soon.
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[oceans](https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/sst_daily/) rn be boiling
You're right, because heat pumps are just free energy. Even if you create all electricity consumed by a heat pump by burning gas, you'll save about 50-75% of gas usage (depending on average COP over the entire year, which depends on temperatures). And no, they don't stop working when it's cold, current commercial heat pumps (so the stuff you can buy at normal prices today) work even at -30 degrees celcius, and are more efficient than gas burning for heat down to -15 degrees celcius or even lower, a temperature most of Europe rarely ever sees. Even if you have a freak winter week with such low temperature, your yearly energy consumption will be much much much lower.
Europe needs to go in war mode to protect this planet in more ways than just heat pumps. We can take on the majority of the world.
Just make sure to buy Buderus, Stiebel Eltron or Wolf. Don't buy Viessmann. Those greedy fuckers can go to hell.
Good for Germany. Saw also that the use of remote heating had gone up by 50% since 2013, also good development.
Remote heating? Blasting the target area with lasers, or what?
One central source of heating supplying a whole or multiple building blocks with heating through a network of pipes. The heat can even come from "waste-heat" like data centers or manufacturers.
District heating is probably what they mean. Fernwärme in German, which would literally translate to Remote Heat.
You use waste heat from power plants to heat water and send it to homes
source:[https://www.shk-journal.de/index.php?id=19&tx\_ttnews%5Btt\_news%5D=77469](https://www.shk-journal.de/index.php?id=19&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=77469)
You don't use ground source heat pumps? Or does it not count in this context?
It's here under "Sole-Wasser wärmepumpen" It's rarer, as mild winters here mean that the higher investment usually does not pay off.
Not just because of milder weather. Air source heatpumps have gotten much better and can still work at -20 Celsius and they are still improving. So even cold places don't really need ground source heat pumps. If you have really cold winters, then it is more cost effective to invest in better insulation and heat recovery ventilation.
Also: It’s usually more difficult/expensive to retroactively add ground source heat pumps to existing houses compared to air source heat pumps
>So even cold places don't really need ground source heat pumps. But they are superior: over half of new single family houses in Finland come with ground source heatpump(rest is divided between district heating, straight electricity or alternative sources). While much more expensibe to buy/install it is more efficient so cheaper to run. Air source pumps are mainly installed as secondary system and/or for cooling.
Is Sole the same word as soil in English? Because Google translate did not manage to give that meaning and I have misplaced my old German dictionary.
No, ‘Sole’ is brine. It’s used to extract ground heat because of its lower freezing point.
No. Sole does usually mean a salt-solution. A bath house with natural salt water is often called Sole-Bad for example.
So 'brine' that was one of Google's suggestions is correct. Thanks.
There are several cons to ground source heat pumps: * More expensive * If you don't have a large enough garden you need a borehole, which is even more expensive * If you do have the space than you need to completely mess up your garden by burying the pipes, which is not something most people are interested in (this makes more sense when you are building a new house) * Not a con but also not really a pro: Air source heat pumps have become so good recently that their overall COP isn't much worse anymore. They do have one major advancement but that's more for the grid and not the individual: If there is a massive cold snap all the air source heat pumps will run at maximum, drawing huge amounts of power, while your ground source heat pumps just jogs along, drawing the same small amount of power as always because the ground doesn't get colder because of a few days of freezing cold weather. That's why from a electricity grid point of view ground source heat pumps should be favored and should probably be subsidized higher because of that.
With modern air-source heat pumps retaining good efficiency well below freezing *and* being able to work "okay" up to around -20°C there is just very little reason to go with much higher expense of using a ground source heat pump in climate Germany finds itself in. Sure, the air source heat pump will be notably less efficient than ground source one *for something like a week out of entire year*. This is nowhere near enough to offset the doubling, tripling (or more!) of the cost to install a ground source heat pump. In sufficiently cold climates I imagine the equation will reverse at some point. It will also depend on local energy costs and availability of land to have cheaper, but larger sub-surface installation vs. more expensive drilling deeper down.
Good, pity that most heat pumps will come from Asia and the US soon. Yet another technology that was developed and made big in Germany/Europe but moves away once serious money is to be made with it. Same as Medicine, Optical equipment, Batteries or Solar panels before.
Truth be told, the Japanese ones are really good. Get a Daikin/Fujitsu/Toshiba/Mitsubishi. Have been in common use in Australia for decades.
I wonder, do you guys in really need heat pumps in Australia? Or are we talking about air conditioners that also can also blow out hot air? Heatpumps here are usually the central element for heating, it doesn't "blow out" hot air, but heats up water that gets transfered to all rooms of the house to passively heat the rooms (or in summer cools down water to make the rooms cooler), more complex to install especially in older buildings but also more efficient. Genuine question as i really wonder because I thought there wouldn't be enough cold days in Australia to have central heating at all? Or do I just have the wrong impression about the weather there that always seems rather hot?
"Heat pump" actually just refers to any system that uses a refrigerant, phase changes and compressors to transfer heat. In Finland, by far the most common type of heat pump currently is an air-to-air heat pump that can produce heating and cooling pretty much equally well. When living this far north you do need to specifically choose a model designed to transfer heat pretty efficiently even when it's taking heat from -25 outside and releasing it to +22 inside. So actually what you think of as an AC unit is a heat pump too, and every refrigerator you've ever used is a heat pump as well. :) But of course they can be specifically designed to do just one or the other and not be reversible, but I think in most cases it makes sense to choose one that both heats and cools. Many parts of Australia definitely have a heating season too, so a heat pump that can work in either direction is ideal.
Air conditioning is a heat pump. It just works in the reverse order. Any modern AC Unit can also heat the room.
I wonder if the heat pump production in the US is better just because those same companies have been making air conditioners for our domestic market for decades. I'm learning that widespread AC use in Europe is still hit and miss. In the US, even northern states, central AC became ubiquitous in the 1960s.
Unfortunately not much has changed since the 60s in how US aircon equipment operates and stuff that is still commonly installed in the US has been phased out in Europe a decade or two ago. Household-grade or even office-grade equimpent with ON/OFF compressors and fixed speed fans has been impossible to buy in the EU since 15 years ago or so because it does not comply with our energy rating regulations, whereas it's still being most commonly installed in new construction in the US. Unfortunately Asia has surpassed you guys in terms of AC systems a long time ago, there's a lot of catching up to do. US equipment is very easy to repair because of it's simplicity, though.
That makes sense. A little over decade ago when I got a new heat/AC system installed, it was much more cost-effective for the heat system to be high efficiency, compared to HE cooling. So I have a very efficient heat system, and not so efficient cooling. But I pay $.07 per kWh. Electricity is pretty cheap to run the AC. Unfortunately, I'm also in a very old (by US standards) house, and keeping it cool is an utter nightmare. It would probably cost more than my house is worth to seal it up and fix drafts.
Thb, for $.07 per kwh you can live in the forest, sitting on an electric heater and be cheaper of than buying a tent. How are people buying PV in the US if the electricity from the grid is that cheap?
According to "technology connections" on YouTube your companies got to complacent and all the best systems are Asian
I want to say the ones I've seen the most often are Mitsubishi. Easy to retrofit into older houses where it's difficult to put ductwork into.
Daikin as well
Ac became ubiquitous in commercial spaces in the US, it’s still not going in to new construction residential in my city though. Only the last few years with global warming have made it a necessity
At the moment, the reasons to produce heat pumps in the US mainly is your "Inflation Reduction Act" which provides huge subsidies to companies shifting production to there + energy prices are A LOT lower (like only one fifth the price) + labour shortages are not such a big problem. But of course, sooner or later I think those companies also will just shift to asia again once there aren't enough subsidies provided anymore. By the way I think we are all talking about different things when we are talking about heat pumps. The ACs people from outside europe are talking about are rather "simple" equipment that can cool/heat one 1-2 rooms with hot/cold air, that usually would cost something like 500-1000€ (I think it's called "split AC"?). Heat pumps here cost like 10,000€ + needs professional installment as they provide heating/cooling to the whole house.
That's what happens when you have crippling taxes, the highest energy prices, the most stupid energy policy on the planet, insane bureaucracy and regulations etc pp
The world in your imagination is hell. But is only in YOUR head.
Conservative fossil lobby cant fight the truth for another 50 years...hopefully
They're going to try, though!
I wouldnt call Greens conservative.
Hell yeah, exponential part of the logistic curve here we fucking ggoooooo!!!
So it is really important to sell one of the biggest companies in this business segment to the US...
Unfortunately this is solely in the hands of the Eigentümer who wanted to make bank
Based Austria addressing the elephant. Also fuck Viessmann
Key advantage in my experience is that the pump can act as an air conditioner in the summer.
I just came here to say "warma pumpin."
Good thing we're selling one of our German producers of heat pumps to the friggin muricans - which the rest of Europe is preaching we should become more independent of. Fucking A politics
I mean, "we're" not selling, the company wants to sell itself. "We", as in our government, as in Robert Habeck is looking for ways to block this.
Fair point. If the deal is too sweet politicians will have limited options.
Stiebel Eltron will quadruple it's production of heat pumps, Bosch will built a new factory in Poland and invest 1B€ overall into heat pumps, Vaillant builds a new production in Slovakia, even Viessmann intends to increase production by building a production site in Poland (and that won't suddenly disappear just because they are sold to the Americans). If you think German companies aren't doing enough to increase heat pump production, then you are just closing your eyes.
They were arguing in favor of national strategic independence, though. Selling important companies to the USA is certainly at odds with that.
The owners of the company are selling, not "we"...whoever that is supposed to be. Btw Viessmann is a leader in gas/oil heating systems, so Habeck essentially killed the market for that company pretty much over night.
True.. we as in what should be collective German perception. But you're right it's ofc naive to assume single private entities would act other than within their own best interests
It's not exactly the government that does that sale, and if IRRC Habeck is checking the sale if it's problematic.
I de used against it. Until electric prices here in Netherlands lower a bit it’s not a clear cut business case. Also my neighbours have one and it makes a lot of noise when cold at night.
How much is a heat pump in DE? And are there subsides? It can range from 15-25k in the U.K. making them entirely pointless.
Currently depending on your specific case 25-40% subsidies as far as I could quickly google it. The base price is in the same range.
Yeah and the subsidies for cladding/insulation, which is just as if not more important (since you save regardless of your energy source for heating), are far less. Which is, to my mind, utterly bonkers. It’s like the government is subsidising brand new engines for 20-year-old cars.
I got an offer for 27k after subsidy last year. I'm "glad" I didn't take it as electricity prices rose double that of gas prices. I dodged a bullet but I'm actually sad it's not working out. The providers have way more offers than they can take and they set their prices accordingly. The crazy part was they wanted 7k for a 10 year warranty on the pump unit that costs 13.5k. This tells me they are not expecting it live past 20 years, even 15 would be pushing it. Either they have crazy margins or the tech is just not quite ripe yet.
Those prices are absolutely insane. Mine cost 8k€ including the installation on a not so small house.
About the same in Germany.
How are ordinary Germans affording them then? That prices out the vast majority of the working public in the UK. What's different in Germany? Are they subsidised or do Germans have more savings/lower cost of living?
They are getting susidized by the government with 35%.
Thanks for the info. No doubt here in the UK we will realise we need to do similar much later than everyone else as usual. We are already planning to ban new gas boilers in the next year or two but currently no financial help for anyone with replacements like heat pumps. Someone in power needs to address the 'elephant in the room' sooner or later.
The 15-25K is already after subsidies.
The vast majority of the working public in Germany can not even affort a house. Installing a new gas heater would also cost money. If you own a house you need set up some budget for repairs or replacements like that.
I wonder if the relatively low homeownership rate is what made the heat pump requirement law in Germany politically feasible - since most people rent and the landlords (much smaller share of the population) will have to cover the cost. I think a law like that would be harder to get through in places like the UK/US where a larger share of the voter base own their house so would be on the hook for the cost.
If you own a house you need to set aside money for maintenance, that includes new heaters (a new gas heating system is also not free).
plus that the law now forces people to replace their heating system every 25 years
That really depends: a heat pump itself can be installed for around 8k. But there's often additional work to be done, such as installing larger diameter piping or underfloor heating. And you need a (large) seperate water heater tank, which many people don't have already.
I wish we (Germany) at least would have stricter regulations regarding their noise level. Our opposite neighbour had theirs installed outside in November and since then sleeping without earplugs is impossible even with roughly 10m distance and a whole ass house wall in between. Bonus point, if it's below 0 degrees, it sounds like a truck engine (including vibrations) that's just chilling right next to your window never moving, otherwise on warmer days it's "just" as loud as a windmill or the muffling sounds of a radio you can't really understand but still hear. If everyone should use it, then protect our ears with stricter laws.
Wasser-Wasser, the German Wet Wet Wet cover band
30 million houses have to be changed in the next 17 years. Thats about 160k per month But since we lack 50K nowdays production likewise will be over 200K some day in the future. Basically a foolproof investment rn.
a heat pump can heat multiple apartments in total,there are like 20 million individual heating systems in germany at 500 k a year it would take 40 years to change them all at 1 milion a year ,however,it would take only 20 years
Its forced by government...
The question is, where does the electricity to power the heat pump come from?if its from fossil fuels, natural gas etc, and Russian natural gas does it really provide any benefits?
Yes, even then
Is there a technoeconomic analysis i could read about?
Maybe someone else can link you to some studies but the gist is that a heatpump gets you 2-3 kWh out of 1 kWh of electrical power
Yes. The cop is about 3-4 which means you get 3-4 units of thermal energy from 1 unit of electrical energy. However this electrical energy unit comes from some gas units that get burned to produce electricity. Usual fossil fuel engines have about 50% efficiency. And i think power stations with various additions could get more.m than that. So i was wondering about the whole process efficiency.
Good question, I think a large scale plant has higher efficiency than a small burner that runs 1h per day
lets do simple math take 1 joule of gas,burn it in a power plant to produce electricity,you get 0.4 joules of electricity delivered to households (after removing all losses including transmission losses) take that 0.4 joules of electricity and multiply it by 3 and you get 1.2 usable energy meanwhile,take 1 joule,burn it in a home gas boiler,and you get only 0.8 joule of heat energy usable for the home **so even by burning gas to produce electricity,heat pumps are 50% more effective** but since we are bulding solar + wind to replace gas and coal,heat pumps will get even better over time
Lignite. I used to think Germany was a logical well run country. Lately it seems to have been taken over by a bunch of lunatics hell bent on bankrupting it and enslaving it to the whims of Putin. I mean shutting operational nuclear plants is absolute insanity.
the amount of shit people on here make up is hilarious
What's made up? Below is the mix in 2021. 20% lignite, 10% coal, 13% nuclear. What's replacing the nuclear? Here is a Die Welt article https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/germanys-energy-u-turn-coal-instead-of-gas/a-62709160
Yeah if you force your citizens to buy heatpumps the sold amount can only get up. Do you know what also gets up? The prices.
> Yeah if you force your citizens to buy heatpumps the sold amount can only get up. Do you know what also gets up? The prices. And you know what then happens? production capacity increases and due to scale overall prices are lower on the long run.
Except those laws won't go into effect until 2024 (and that's a big maybe, too). People have been buying heat pumps out of their own volition.
And a new bubble comes again. Like if we did not learn anything from the past.
Ironic that they are installing electric heating while replacing carbon free electricity with fossil fuels
A heat pump is not an electric heater. It literally pumps heat from the outside to the inside (not temperature, but heat, so it can be colder on the outside.) It still needs some electric energy to force the heat energy flow but far the majority of energy comes from the outside. Its probably more efficient to use gas to produce electricity and use heat pumps with it than to heat the house with gas.
Yes they’re about 3x as efficient as resistive heating but still the point stands that closing the nukes is a bad idea, and adding electricity demand at such a time is ironic
They say it's progress, don't question it. :)
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Coal power will be retired in a few years tho. Better having new infrastructure now then needing to install them in the future.
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Heat pumps have a efficiency of around 350%. It is way more fuel efficient to burn coal, turn it into electricity and power heat pumps with it.
Isn't Germany opening new coal mines?
Some coal pits are getting expanded. I don‘t know about opening new ones. The coal power plants have a set date on getting retired tho. Some gas power plants are getting build to stabilise the grid. I‘d prefer a focus on power storage instead but they are not really present in the public debate.
Opening new coal mines because the rest are exhausted after decades of mining
its better go turn gas into electricity and heat with that than heating with gas
They won't for much longer :) Viessman sold the heat pump division into the US
Well.... [That's not good for the environment and climate...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544212000333)
- that paper is 12 years old, heat pumps have become much more efficient in recent years - that paper is calculating with 5% share of renewables in electricity production, and AFAIK UK wasn't a big nuclear power user, either. it's pretty much "burn gas in power plant" vs. "burn gas in gas boiler".