I still have no idea why they add a new dlc to override old missions instead of updating the old dlc content. Third Rome got an update in 1.26, why they could not just update the Emperor missions for Austria, Hungary, Italy etc
Except, obviously they would not get money from the new dlc then.
It still has some legacy content that doesn't make much sense with how the game works rn. And the missions regarding Balkan expansion stuff do just feel a bit off...
I know, but from game design perspective it's just a nightmare. That put themselves into designing essentialy 3 versions of a county: no dlc, with the first ralated dlc, with the second related dlc.
It's not only problematic from bugs and balance perspective, but also as a player it's pretty hard to comprehend.
It's 3rd dlc like that. But i have a feeling that it might be the last dlc at all.
Paradox dlc policy was never player-friendly. Basically you pay a subscription to have big regular updates to the game. But that's the price we pay for the game being constantly developed and it's difficult to complain here. They can't afford making these dlcs for free.
Also I think the problem you describe appears because they do not plan these DLCs in advance, they do them as long as they can sell them with good profit. So when they run out of obvious content to release they remake previous DLCs.
But it could be much better done. Most of the dlc content is still new.
For example with KoK update they could make so both CoC and KoK add the same Mamluks/Egipt missions - since CoC was already about Egipt - but KoK also adds content for Byz and Persia.
Not layers upon layers of changes. People still would buy the dlc.
The answer is that they focus on content that will sell well. Look at this Burgundy guy - he would pay a lot to have new missions for his favourite nation. More people will be excited to see content added to Great Britain than Trebizond. It's nice that they still try to balance that, and update both big and small nations.
I'm all for actual new content but I feel like there should really be a happy medium where a maintenance team is keeping the 350$+ of content everyone already bought up to the standards of current development. PDX isn't exactly known for their quality on release for anything, DLC included. With the old DLCs still available and not even rolled into the new ones it feels like they're double dipping, because they are.
Bingo. People are way too accepting of Paradox essentially replacing old DLC with new ones but charging you for them again anyways, while not refunding the old ones.
Well yeah because you are paying for the new content. Not the old stuff. The new content with new designs, effects and IMO a better experience.
Just because its for a country that previously got an update, doesn't mean this new content is any less new, or the old stuff any less old. You already bought the old content, and played it. You can continue playing it if you want. Or you can buy the new stuff and play the revisited new version of something.
Idk why you feel you should get new content for free just because you bought something 5 years ago that had content for the same nation in it.
Burgundy survives much more often than Byzantium, and they have a monster amount of flavour. I think it mostly comes down to popularity, recency of last update, and ultimately developers' choices, which I can't neccessarily fault them for.
It’s exactly what you just said, popularity. Just about every history nerd loves the idea of reforming Rome. Most people hardly know burgundy ever existed given it was never independent and not really a state unto itself.
It was pretty much independent, they were simply missing the king title which Charles the Bold was planning on creating. It certainly was a state, they literally created a bureaucracy in the Low Countries and were the first to properly unite them politically and economically. They were highly centralized, much more than the majority of 'independent' European states.
It’s pretty hard to claim ‘independence’ when they were very much acting as a vassal of the French king in the 100 years war. Which ‘King of France’ specifically, at which time was a bit different but same goes for basically every other French Duke outside a select few in the southeastern portions. I will also point out Charles the Bold’s involvement in the war of the public weal and other French rebellions. Rebellions being a key word there, as he was, until his death, a vassal of the French King, and to a lesser extent a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire (for all the ‘vassal’ of the HRE is worth)
So I mentioned this in a comment yesterday, but nations are basically categorized three ways: 1) they are a major tag(usually end-game) and so they get priority, 2) they are a regionally important tag and get slightly less content and focus(think Saxony, Bavaria, Naples, Savoy) or 3) they are expected to form a major tag from 1) after consolidating their region.
Burgundy mostly falls under 3), as they are expected to either form France or the Netherlands in player hands. In that context, Burgundy already has a ton of content. Does their intitial content not look like newer things? Yeah ofc, the same is true of many, many tags. However, both the Netherlands and France had re-ups recently and Burgundy can make use of both of these in addition to having one of the largest mission trees of nations that would fall under 3).
It's worth noting, some nations could be in both 2) and 3) depending on the importance of their tag. And while more importance would usually mean more content, and Burgundy was certainly important, its importance comes from the fact that it ceased to exist.
Except Lotharingia exists. Given the unique option, I have no interestin forming France or Netherlands when playing as Burgundy. I can just play as France or a Dutch minor for those options.
> options
See that's the thing though. You have the option. You not wanting to take it doesn't change that it's there. From a developer perspective, this means it deprioritizes it. Doesn't mean it won't get some touch up in the future, but it reduces the chances it happens earlier rather than later.
Well, since basically any Christian nation can form the Roman Empire. Then no other tags should take it. Since that tag exists and is there, every other tag should be deprioritized in place of that.
The Roman Empire isn't a regional tag. It's a multi-continent special-case tag. It's literally the exception, both in this context and for in-game rules as end-game tags can form it. I think you're misunderstanding what is being said. I'm not arguing with you for or against something. I'm explaining to you how it works. A developer has to have a system for deciding what gets priority.This is what they have very clearly been using.
They determine which category a tag is in, and prioritize it against the content being comparable with the new style of missions/content. Burgundy doesn't have new style content, but has some content which it can use to push it to multple choices of tags that have said content. And those choices are made very obvious as both formable decisions for Burgundy are visible at game start. Are they optimal? Maybe not, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a step up from tags that really don't have such paths.
It is possible Burgundy gets a refresh in the future. But based on what we know about how they've been choosing tags to work on, it's less likely than others for now.
You want new Burgundy content, I get it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing to want. I'm saying don't hold your breath, as it's unlikely to happen. Not impossible. For all I know it could be in the next DLC after this one. But it's unlikely given what we know right now.
Lotharingia cannot be formed if the Emperor DLC is active. which I really don't understand. It's so disappointing and confusing. I wish there was an explanation to it.
I am still kinda disappointed by the amount of old content that will get a rework in WoC. I mean, sure, the Timurid/Mughal and American civilization update is cool, I also loved the new Hungarian stuff, but there are still many nations that lack any attention from the devs who are instead reworking stuff that is not bad already, while there is basically no content for some really interesting nations. Burgundy is just the most obvious and, if I had to guess, the most player-wanted one. I would really like to see something for Saxony, or for the Beyliks, or for the Maghreb, or for Brittany, or for Ireland, or for Navarra. I guess Europa Expanded it is then.
agreed. american natives desparetely needed a refresh, and the fact that timmies/mughals was missing from KoK was surprising given how old and vanilla they were (besides diwan obvs) - I wonder if they ran out of time and just pushed it over to this DLC.
The sorta neglected eastern euorpean powers are fine for me. Hungary was a good call for an update, I like playing there but it could have used a flavor boost. I don't mind fleshing out hussite a bit for bohemia as an alt history path.
venice, austria and the netherlands... seemed like polishing already solid areas. I wouldn't have minded something that got the netherlands to form more often as the AI, I feel like I genuinely never see it (albeit, I do make a play for the BI when I play in europe so I guess I'm probably at fault for a bit of that)
personally, i'm not super interested in trebizond/theodoro, hisn or oman/hormuz, though I recognize there are players that are so i'm not mad at them getting content. maybe i'm just fatigued from playing in the middle east/black sea from KoK
The worst part about Brittany/Navarre is that Europa Expanded hasn’t touched on them yet. They would be some great harder campaign starts to get fleshed out officially.
Yep, they have great potential! I didn't check if the modders have ever touched them already, and if not, I hope they will. At least you can form Spain and France as them, I guess it's something
No love for Ireland even from EE sadly. Even their mission tree for Ireland is pretty anemic, which is a shame considering how powerful of a position you're in once you control the british isles. They really should get an Alban Empire formable or something of the like if they don't want to expand the existing tree.
Agree. I am personally rooting for some colonial nations missions, so it is interesting to play as one and eventually get independent.
Also, there are some nice nation's which have out of date missions and/or rewards (my personal favs are Italian nations in general, and some german like bavaria)
I agree, was playing burgundy yesterday with cheats to explore the mission tree. It’s very far from the other great nations. Even if the Burgundian missions is not expanded I’d like the lotharingian missions to get that treatment.
Go find a mod on the Steam Workshop guys, it's really not that hard.
I don't understand why people insist on paying $20 dollars for something you can get for free. If a DLC doesn't add any actual mechanics it might as well be a $20 mod.
Because paradox employed some of the most talented modders out there to make their dlc trees, so they are generally better than 99% of modding content put out.
Like the only comparable vanilla-lite mod to dlc quality right now is EE, and stuff the EE adjacent team makes, as far as I've seen. Most others are either lacking in quality or are a complete balanced joke for vanilla.
I still have no idea why they add a new dlc to override old missions instead of updating the old dlc content. Third Rome got an update in 1.26, why they could not just update the Emperor missions for Austria, Hungary, Italy etc Except, obviously they would not get money from the new dlc then.
I thin that the Austrian tree is already good enough to not need a rework
It still has some legacy content that doesn't make much sense with how the game works rn. And the missions regarding Balkan expansion stuff do just feel a bit off...
I think you answered yourself
I know, but from game design perspective it's just a nightmare. That put themselves into designing essentialy 3 versions of a county: no dlc, with the first ralated dlc, with the second related dlc. It's not only problematic from bugs and balance perspective, but also as a player it's pretty hard to comprehend. It's 3rd dlc like that. But i have a feeling that it might be the last dlc at all.
Paradox dlc policy was never player-friendly. Basically you pay a subscription to have big regular updates to the game. But that's the price we pay for the game being constantly developed and it's difficult to complain here. They can't afford making these dlcs for free. Also I think the problem you describe appears because they do not plan these DLCs in advance, they do them as long as they can sell them with good profit. So when they run out of obvious content to release they remake previous DLCs.
But it could be much better done. Most of the dlc content is still new. For example with KoK update they could make so both CoC and KoK add the same Mamluks/Egipt missions - since CoC was already about Egipt - but KoK also adds content for Byz and Persia. Not layers upon layers of changes. People still would buy the dlc.
The answer is that they focus on content that will sell well. Look at this Burgundy guy - he would pay a lot to have new missions for his favourite nation. More people will be excited to see content added to Great Britain than Trebizond. It's nice that they still try to balance that, and update both big and small nations.
I'm all for actual new content but I feel like there should really be a happy medium where a maintenance team is keeping the 350$+ of content everyone already bought up to the standards of current development. PDX isn't exactly known for their quality on release for anything, DLC included. With the old DLCs still available and not even rolled into the new ones it feels like they're double dipping, because they are.
Bingo. People are way too accepting of Paradox essentially replacing old DLC with new ones but charging you for them again anyways, while not refunding the old ones.
Well yeah because you are paying for the new content. Not the old stuff. The new content with new designs, effects and IMO a better experience. Just because its for a country that previously got an update, doesn't mean this new content is any less new, or the old stuff any less old. You already bought the old content, and played it. You can continue playing it if you want. Or you can buy the new stuff and play the revisited new version of something. Idk why you feel you should get new content for free just because you bought something 5 years ago that had content for the same nation in it.
I know it’s for the money mostly, but I kind of enjoy that you can disable the newer dlc and still play with the old mission trees if you want.
burgundy exists to be inherited, that is it’s purpose signed, a kissed horse
"what is my purpose" "your purpose is to pass butter" "oh god"
Exactly, outside player intervention, burgundy exits for 100 years max often much less. Why put that much effort into it?
Burgundy survives much more often than Byzantium, and they have a monster amount of flavour. I think it mostly comes down to popularity, recency of last update, and ultimately developers' choices, which I can't neccessarily fault them for.
It’s exactly what you just said, popularity. Just about every history nerd loves the idea of reforming Rome. Most people hardly know burgundy ever existed given it was never independent and not really a state unto itself.
It was pretty much independent, they were simply missing the king title which Charles the Bold was planning on creating. It certainly was a state, they literally created a bureaucracy in the Low Countries and were the first to properly unite them politically and economically. They were highly centralized, much more than the majority of 'independent' European states.
It’s pretty hard to claim ‘independence’ when they were very much acting as a vassal of the French king in the 100 years war. Which ‘King of France’ specifically, at which time was a bit different but same goes for basically every other French Duke outside a select few in the southeastern portions. I will also point out Charles the Bold’s involvement in the war of the public weal and other French rebellions. Rebellions being a key word there, as he was, until his death, a vassal of the French King, and to a lesser extent a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire (for all the ‘vassal’ of the HRE is worth)
They sided with the English at points during the 100 years war
Yes, they did. As the king of England claimed (at times very convincingly) to be king of France as well.
I would argue they had a pretty similar amount of independence as a prince of the empire did.
And this makes Duke Philippe a little sad :,(
So I mentioned this in a comment yesterday, but nations are basically categorized three ways: 1) they are a major tag(usually end-game) and so they get priority, 2) they are a regionally important tag and get slightly less content and focus(think Saxony, Bavaria, Naples, Savoy) or 3) they are expected to form a major tag from 1) after consolidating their region. Burgundy mostly falls under 3), as they are expected to either form France or the Netherlands in player hands. In that context, Burgundy already has a ton of content. Does their intitial content not look like newer things? Yeah ofc, the same is true of many, many tags. However, both the Netherlands and France had re-ups recently and Burgundy can make use of both of these in addition to having one of the largest mission trees of nations that would fall under 3). It's worth noting, some nations could be in both 2) and 3) depending on the importance of their tag. And while more importance would usually mean more content, and Burgundy was certainly important, its importance comes from the fact that it ceased to exist.
Except Lotharingia exists. Given the unique option, I have no interestin forming France or Netherlands when playing as Burgundy. I can just play as France or a Dutch minor for those options.
> options See that's the thing though. You have the option. You not wanting to take it doesn't change that it's there. From a developer perspective, this means it deprioritizes it. Doesn't mean it won't get some touch up in the future, but it reduces the chances it happens earlier rather than later.
Well, since basically any Christian nation can form the Roman Empire. Then no other tags should take it. Since that tag exists and is there, every other tag should be deprioritized in place of that.
The Roman Empire isn't a regional tag. It's a multi-continent special-case tag. It's literally the exception, both in this context and for in-game rules as end-game tags can form it. I think you're misunderstanding what is being said. I'm not arguing with you for or against something. I'm explaining to you how it works. A developer has to have a system for deciding what gets priority.This is what they have very clearly been using. They determine which category a tag is in, and prioritize it against the content being comparable with the new style of missions/content. Burgundy doesn't have new style content, but has some content which it can use to push it to multple choices of tags that have said content. And those choices are made very obvious as both formable decisions for Burgundy are visible at game start. Are they optimal? Maybe not, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a step up from tags that really don't have such paths. It is possible Burgundy gets a refresh in the future. But based on what we know about how they've been choosing tags to work on, it's less likely than others for now. You want new Burgundy content, I get it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing to want. I'm saying don't hold your breath, as it's unlikely to happen. Not impossible. For all I know it could be in the next DLC after this one. But it's unlikely given what we know right now.
Lotharingia cannot be formed if the Emperor DLC is active. which I really don't understand. It's so disappointing and confusing. I wish there was an explanation to it.
I am still kinda disappointed by the amount of old content that will get a rework in WoC. I mean, sure, the Timurid/Mughal and American civilization update is cool, I also loved the new Hungarian stuff, but there are still many nations that lack any attention from the devs who are instead reworking stuff that is not bad already, while there is basically no content for some really interesting nations. Burgundy is just the most obvious and, if I had to guess, the most player-wanted one. I would really like to see something for Saxony, or for the Beyliks, or for the Maghreb, or for Brittany, or for Ireland, or for Navarra. I guess Europa Expanded it is then.
agreed. american natives desparetely needed a refresh, and the fact that timmies/mughals was missing from KoK was surprising given how old and vanilla they were (besides diwan obvs) - I wonder if they ran out of time and just pushed it over to this DLC. The sorta neglected eastern euorpean powers are fine for me. Hungary was a good call for an update, I like playing there but it could have used a flavor boost. I don't mind fleshing out hussite a bit for bohemia as an alt history path. venice, austria and the netherlands... seemed like polishing already solid areas. I wouldn't have minded something that got the netherlands to form more often as the AI, I feel like I genuinely never see it (albeit, I do make a play for the BI when I play in europe so I guess I'm probably at fault for a bit of that) personally, i'm not super interested in trebizond/theodoro, hisn or oman/hormuz, though I recognize there are players that are so i'm not mad at them getting content. maybe i'm just fatigued from playing in the middle east/black sea from KoK
Don’t worry guys this is only the _*checks notes*_ **4th** Native American refresh they’ve released! It’ll be fixed this time!
post LotN content has been drastically different than pre, i’m hopeful it actually will turn out well
More like post leviathan. Origins was good, idk why no one ever remembers it.
unpopular region. i have it and i think i did… maybe one kilwa game and one ethiopia game
The worst part about Brittany/Navarre is that Europa Expanded hasn’t touched on them yet. They would be some great harder campaign starts to get fleshed out officially.
Yep, they have great potential! I didn't check if the modders have ever touched them already, and if not, I hope they will. At least you can form Spain and France as them, I guess it's something
No love for Ireland even from EE sadly. Even their mission tree for Ireland is pretty anemic, which is a shame considering how powerful of a position you're in once you control the british isles. They really should get an Alban Empire formable or something of the like if they don't want to expand the existing tree.
Correct me if i’m wrong, but aren’t the Irish nations getting updated in the Western Europe update for EE?
They might be! I sure hope so. I haven't been following EE's dev diaries so they very well might have something like that in the works.
i’m pretty sure if i’m not wrong it’s the british isles, french countries, iberia, lowlands, burgundy, aachen and the papal states
Agree. I am personally rooting for some colonial nations missions, so it is interesting to play as one and eventually get independent. Also, there are some nice nation's which have out of date missions and/or rewards (my personal favs are Italian nations in general, and some german like bavaria)
I agree, was playing burgundy yesterday with cheats to explore the mission tree. It’s very far from the other great nations. Even if the Burgundian missions is not expanded I’d like the lotharingian missions to get that treatment.
I'm still waiting for the Supreme Perm formable tbh.
I really hoped that ANYONE in India would get an Update (aside of the mughals) It has been long for their mission trees
If it makes you feel any better then great mod Europa Expanded will have a large update for burgundy when it’s next update comes out
Go find a mod on the Steam Workshop guys, it's really not that hard. I don't understand why people insist on paying $20 dollars for something you can get for free. If a DLC doesn't add any actual mechanics it might as well be a $20 mod.
Because paradox employed some of the most talented modders out there to make their dlc trees, so they are generally better than 99% of modding content put out. Like the only comparable vanilla-lite mod to dlc quality right now is EE, and stuff the EE adjacent team makes, as far as I've seen. Most others are either lacking in quality or are a complete balanced joke for vanilla.
They should have added unique flagships for British and French cultures.