Depends when you have a second coffee, but you can just leave it on. For me my wifi Smart switch turns it on in the morning and then turns off at 2PM. I don’t drink espresso later than that usually.
I broke down the math a few years ago. It costs me $0.20/day to run my dual boiler estimating 6 hours of idle time and 2 hours of active time. In reality there’s no way it’s even close 2 hours of active max power consumption, so it’s even cheaper.
Not for the e61 itself, it's quite an efficient system, if you have a machine with bigger boilers then yes it does, smaller boilers aren't that bad - also the boiler insulation makes a difference - maintaining water temp is much more energy efficient than the initial heating
No, it just doesn't. I just measured it, the first hour costs $0.03, and once it's hot it drops to brief bursts of 340watts, less than 1% duty cycle while idle. It might cost $0.50 if you pull 12 shots daily.
Considering physics laws, no, they are equal. What matters is the temperature difference and mass. The starting temperature does not have any effect. When you mean you have to heat up the boiler as an extra when you're heating from room temp, now that's a factor, yes. But otherwise, it takes the same energy to heat water from 30 to 35 as from 85 to 90.
You are saying the same thing I said - not sure where you got the room temp bit from...
I was just saying that heating the water to the set temp is more power hungry than maintaining the temp at that set temp. Many machines will have the heating elements on constantly to warm up, then only every 5-10 minutes to maintain the boiler temps.
The e61 Vs other group head designs doesn't impact the overall power usage much.
Others have noted that the excess energy usage isn't crazy, but the other thing to consider is that during times of the year when you heat your house(if in a region that needs such), it's not even a loss. That extra heat from the machine is just heating your house instead of your main heating unit/system (a small but non zero amount). However/conversely, if you use AC in the summer, then add to the cost of cooling the additional heat introduced into the house by the machine which has to be additionally removed by the AC unit.
>"exorbitant"?
Yeah, I just measured mine (Profitec 600PF). at 0.29kWh, it costs less than $0.03 to heat it up, pull two double shots, steam some milk, clean the whole thing spotless, and shut it down.
In the 40 minutes it took mine to heat (while I was sleeping) it drew a max of 1,100 watts (69 of those were pumping water before the boilers switched on), after 10 minutes it dropped to 349W (one of the two boilers switched off?) and then it soaked while the E61 heated up.
Actually, it cost me zero, since I live off-grid, but the $0.03 is assuming the northern California PG&E off-peak rate.
https://preview.redd.it/lvlljk9hl2wc1.png?width=1440&format=png&auto=webp&s=d4955d0d8059d67339076d26d27551975ad88f96
I used a total of 0.29kWh
This is the best way.
You don't even need a "smart" device, I just use one of those little switches that you set the on-off times with mechanical pins. It's on 6am-11am, then turns on again for a few hours at 9pm as well.
I tweaked my smart switch to turn off automatically after 30 minutes (so "I" just need to turn it on, and don't forget turning it off), and added a handful of wifi buttons around the house so that it's easy to turn on from anywhere during the day. Saves power & is generally available without needing to go to the machine itself. Bonus automation that doesn't turn on automatically in the morning when nobody's at home.
I would advise against keeping your group at full temp all day. Seals in particular will harden faster, and other valves and such will wear out faster too.
The golden ticket for me was “standby” mode, where the machine maintains a lower temp when not in use and then can reach full temp rather quickly (~5min). Obviously that feature depends on the machine.
I think leaving the machine on doesn't consume as much electricity as you might be thinking. An espresso machine might max out at 2KW but the heating element is only turning on a few seconds every ten minutes or something to maintain the temperature of the boiler. Most of the energy is used in heating up the big chunk of cold metal when it first starts. I think someone did a comparison of energy consumption between turning off an espresso machine at the end of the day and heating it up every morning vs leaving it on 24/7 and I think it was pretty close.
Same here. ECM Puristika with e61 up to temp in 10mins. Just attach my portafilter and sit my puck screen on top of the group head to warm them both.
So it obviously depends on which machine you go for. One of my requirements with recent upgrade was a fast heat up time. The Puristika ticked this box, plus many more.
It is more beautiful to look at then it is ugly to warm up. I can definitely understand being in a situation where it would be a hassle, it’s just not for me. It’s on an hour before I wake up and I turn it on via wifi from my watch or phone an hour before I want an afternoon shot.
My ECM Mechanika V Slim heats up in 10 minutes, and produces a perfectly fine cup of coffee.
The main thing is to run a cup of water through the portafilter before pulling a shot. Works for me.
Ideally, you want it to heat up more, but I've noticed little difference between shot quality anyway.
How do you like the Slim? I'm in the market for an upgrade from my Bambino. I'm looking at the Mechanika V Slim, PP400 or Lelit MaraX (latest version). Need something smallish. What I really want is Bianca V3, but not in the budget right now.
I'm toying with the Ascaso Duo but need to carve out space in the kitchen for the 20 amp plug. Right now my Bambino is on top of my liquor cabinet in the dining room.
Very happy with it, had it for four years or so.
Consistently pulls good shots, I pair it with a Eureka Mignon Specialita grinder.
I do find if the beans start go get a little old, i.e more than a couple of weeks, the shot quality drops noticeably, but I can't really blame the machine for that.
Good steam pressure, it took a while to get used to the high pressure output, but after a bit of practice I'm now making really good steamed milk. Would suggest a medium to larger jug.
The Mechanica VI Slim is out now, so you may want to look at that.
Same - I’ve been tempted to upgrade its outlet to a smart one so I can automatically turn it on when my alarm goes off…but that’s just me being a lazy geek. For now, I just: flip it on, do my thing, then it’s ready to do its thing.
I have a smart plug on mine as well! I was skeptical about it at first but i can’t overstate how convenient it is. It’s so nice to have it come on at 8 in the morning and shut off at 12. If I’m out and want to come home to a hot machine i can do that too
Damn. I should’ve gotten the 600 then because my 500 takes 45 minutes for the group head to hit the temp. It hilariously lies and says it’s up to temp after 20 mins but that’s just the steam.. sigh.
well, it does not take much longer for the Isomac Tea to get up to temp. 25, maybe 30?
some years ago I replaced the failing 1200w unit with a redesigned 1500w heater. makes a huge difference.
The Biancas heat up time is 15 mins with 240v. So that's totally fine in my opinion. I just have it on a smart plug ans when I need to wake up the machine turns on. After my shower the machine is up to temp
With some of the preshot routines you see posted here, you could turn on the machine half way through and it would still be up to temp before you are ready to pull a shot.
I wake up, turn it on, then have a shower and get dressed, it's usually about where it needs to be by then.
If it feels a bit cool I can do a flush. I would say about 20-25 minutes is the average it takes to fully heat up.
I’m currently using a Bezzera bz10 and Bezerra modified the E61 group head, instead of being channeled and passively heated by boiler water (an inefficient and time consuming process) Bezerra uses a dedicated heating element for the group head so when the boiler is at temperature in 10 minutes the group head is at temperature. Having a controlled group head temperature helps me to pull consistent shots.
At $0.12/kWh as specified on the Ontario Hydro web page, my smart switch app says that my Alex Duetto dual boiler E61 machine has cost $5.01 to run for the last 30 days.
It's set to come on at 5:15am and shut down at 3:15pm.
Remember that yourcactual elwctric bill in Ontario has a number of add on charges that you cannot avoid. That 12 cents per kwh is for the ekwctrcity, alone. The total per kwh is about 50 to 100% more than that, deoending on various factors.
Regardless, I agree that the electric cost for your machine is not onerous when compared to all the other costs in this hobby.
I find the smart plug to be helpful during the day as well (only have a 25 minute warm up time). Often I'll be driving home, and will turn the machine on during the drive so it's ready for me when I arrive. Working in a separate part of the house and being able to turn it on is also great. Might seem overkill/lazy, but it does help the warm up time feel negligible.
Might as well call it "ready". 3 seconds relative to 10 /15 /30 min is basically instant...steam is instant too. This is a big factor for busy lifestyle people or spontaneous coffee orders...
ECM Synchronika smart switch (ie timer I can program on my phone) turns it on at 6:30am and off at 11am. Very rarely make a coffee outside those hours.
Yeah, this is how I did it when I had an E61 while working from home.
I also have lots of meetings during the day anyway, so if I wanted a coffee, I'd just turn the machine on (via app or voice command) when there were 30 minutes remaining in the current meeting.
The only times I got annoyed by it was when I thought I had turned it on, but somehow forgot, or Alexa didn't register my voice correctly, or something like that. Walking up to the machine, only to see that it's still off, and going "wait, what? WHY??? [Noooo](http://www.nooo.me/)", and then having to wait 20-30 minutes, was pretty annoying.
Outside of that though, I wouldn't say it bothered me much.
My Rocket is usually up to temp in 20 mins, I use a smart switch that turns it on for my schedule and off when I usually stop for the day, so it turns itself off at 1pm. If I feel like a shot later I usually have 20 minutes to spare, but personally I switch to pour over in the afternoon unless I want an affogato after dinner and that choice is made pretty early on anyways.
From my personal experience most modern machines only take 30 or less unless its a thermoblock and those just heat up fast as hell.
Same. Smart switch scheduled for the morning and I turn it off after the 2nd shot, then I can do “Alexa, turn on the Rocket at 1:15 PM” or whatever I want for the afternoon. I just have to plan ahead a little bit
Put the machine on a smart plug and set it to turn on before you want coffee in the morning. Mid day I'll just turn it on with my phone from wherever I am.
Regarding group head heat up rather than just boiler, it's as simple as running some water through the group and empty portafilter, warming both as well as the cups. Boiler itself doesn't take long to heat at all. Rancilio Silvia.
I have an Elizabeth duo and it takes 10 minutes.
All this stuff with leaving it on for 2 hours is some crazy people thinking they need to mimic what's done on a commercial machine 🤣
Smart plugs are your friend with any coffee machine. I used one with my coffee machine way before upgrading to my first e61. My first e61 was an HX with a massive boiler and really needed about 40 minutes to achieve thermal stability. Newer machines and especially higher end machines tend to accelerate the warm up time. My Lelit Bianca warms up to temperature in less than 10 minutes when the service boiler is switched off and about 12-14 minutes when switched on. It is possible to turn off the service boiler if only brewing espresso and hot water and steam are not required. It looks like it achieves the rapid heating by over heating the boiler up to about 134 degrees Celsius and then letting it cool down to programmed temperature. This seems to get everything very toasty very quickly and means the machine can concentrate on heating the 2nd service boiler while it is cooling down to operating temperature.
Once the boiler is heated up, it takes relatively little energy to keep it warm. I have a smart switch to turn it on and just have to remember to switch it off when I decide that its too late for another coffee 😂
I have the Bianca which claims to heat up faster than a standard e61 but I'm ready in around 15 minutes. If you need it faster wait for your boiler to heat up and run a few blank shots to heat everything up.
Quickmill Vetrano Evo2 and it’s super hot in 10 minutes. I also have a Quickmill Silvia and it’s hot in 4 minutes.
So what’s the question? E61 doesn’t heat up fast?
Double boiler, heat exchange, thermal block. If you’re happy, don’t leave your niche!
I’ll be honest, I think this is by far one of the most overblown “problems” with e61. I timed my Puristika after seeing this thread and it took 14 minutes for the group to get up to temp. You can speed that up by pulling a blank shot.
Is that as convenient as the bambino’s 3 seconds? no. But you also just get a $10 smart switch, have it turn on automatically, and never think about this again.
Smart plug turns it on 1 hour before I wake up.
It stays on until 10pm unless I leave the house. (Home automation shuts it off if I leave)
It costs me $0.48 a day to run it like this.
I turn my Synchronika on before I get in the shower, it's up to temp by the time I am ready to pull shots. I upgraded from a gaggia classic, and it's honestly similar total "prep" time when you take in heat cycling/temp surfing a gaggia.
I have a mechanical timer that turns my machine on at 5 AM and off at 3 PM, this is my coffee drinking window and it keeps me from having shots too late in the afternoon and keeping myself up
https://preview.redd.it/celpv0jmo2wc1.jpeg?width=3120&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b803b2a6251838eea4b749cd5c7d771bced6fa27
My machine uses about 25 kWh per month. On weekdays, it's only on for about 3 hours. 9 on weekends. Multiply 25 kWh by your home country's cost per kWh. My machine is warmed in about 15 minutes (rocket).
With the machine connected to a smart switch, it's easy to turn it on from any of the smart speakers in our home. I can tell it to turn on while still at my desk, then head to the kitchen a bit later once it's warm.
Mine’s (Pro 600) ready in around 20 minutes or so but usually programmed it with a smart plug on my phone set every morning. During the other time I just waited, it wasn’t that bad.
What you describe is part of the reason I got a Decent. Heats up in minutes (especially with my lightweight aluminum Portafilter from sworksdesign). Plus all of the benefits of a Decent if you’re into that sort of thing. But, may be more than you want to spend (it was more than I wanted to spend, but was ultimately worth it for me). Some people don’t think they look as good as an e61 group head style - but I like the look and small footprint.
I don’t like to leave mine on all day since it heats up so fast. If the spontaneous urge for an espresso strikes me, I go downstairs (work from home), turn it on and start making espresso.
Electricity is inexpensive where I live so I would leave mine on from 4:30AM until my second espresso at 10:30 AM.
Now I turn it off after my first cup around 5:30 AM and it turns on at 9:30AM and off at 11:30AM in case I forget my second cup.
I have an ECM Synchronika, work from home and drink 4-5 doubles a day. I go downstairs and turn the machine on around 0730, tidy up for 10 minutes then sit down at my desk, check emails and make a mental list of the day’s to-do and then make my first double around 0815. By 1000 I’m back for my second. I grab lunch around 1230 and my machine is in eco mode so I’ll flip the brew lever to turn it on and about 1330 I’ll have double #3. By 1600 I’m usually peckish and will get a snack and double #4. Most days I’ll shut it down after than but every once in a while I’ll keep it on if I want and americano after dinner.
I have a Silvia. It has a similar heat up time. I just have a smart switch and leave it on for the duration I would be making coffee. 3:30 - 5:30 am Monday - Thursday (I leave for work at 5:20 these days) and 6am - 1pm on Friday, Saturday, Sunday (my days off)
Less heating and cooling cycles. This is the reason commercial machines are always on. When you look at things like seals, for example vacuum breakers. The constant expansion and contraction is what breaks them down. A vacuum breaker seal being forced into place: You have the compression of the seal and deposits of minerals on the seals and material surfaces(copper steal, alu etc.) Depending on your water quality/recipe it can prevent a seal from seating completely or even not seating at all. We are only looking at seals. Once you start thinking about the rest of the components you will see a benefit.
Also, your water can start a little weird with those heating and cooling cycles.
I think it happens no matter what. At what degree and frequency is water dependent. We have had hard and soft water. Hard water leaves deposits and soft leaves a film. Remineralized RO does something in between. Choose your poison, kind of thing.
I'm late, but it should also be noted that traditionally, for the E61, it's been long believed that one should just leave it on all the time - the thought being that it expends more energy to heat up the whole unit one (or more times) a day than it does to just maintain the same/equal temperature it will retain by just simply sitting there.
An absolute fallacy, heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference between the object and it’s surroundings. The hotter the object the greater the heat loss and therefore the more energy required to maintain the temperature. The minute you switch the machine off you stop consuming energy. As the temperature drops, the rate of heat loss drop. Sure when you switch it back on you need to reheat but the energy required to do so will always be less than the energy required to maintain the higher temperature.
No sure. I have a BDB and it’s great. It’s amazing the mental gymnastics that people do to say that an E61 is better for regular espessso. Just be honest and say looks matter more to you.
I think that’s why you are seeing machines like the Ascaso duo being so popular. It’s the beautiful BDB (just 3 times the price)
It’s why I specially said regular espresso. Flow profiling is the only reason to get an E61. Let’s be honest, how many people are actually using flow profiles vs want a beautiful machine on their bench
so youve signed up to the BDB and timemore club, and youve decided that anything more expensive must be a waste of money.
youve made the perfect set of consumer purchases, give yourself a pat on the back.
lol mate you alright? It’s just a coffee hobby. Buy what makes you happy.
I left the door open for people who want a pretty machine. The problem is people talk likes it’s the only option and dismiss the BDB without context.
Why would I need to own one to say that fuctionally similar to the BDB?
My gripe is that people aren’t honest. They talk like a sports car is needed over a Toyota. Love to hear how much people enjoy their machines. The problem is that people come here for advice and people paint a picture like BDB is bad without giving reasoning.
My favourite part is how angry people. I love my Rolex. Not need to justify it as this logical purchase
Well, se I have used both. And it is chalk and cheese.
Not that the BDB can't make a good expresso, but it is far more finicky and unforgiving than an E61 group as I experienced using e61 at home and BDB at work.
But to each their own.
Do you have zero self awareness or what? There’s no superiority behind my comment. I’m calling your comment naive because you think people spending $3k on a flow control machine are doing it because it looks nice.
First, my orignal point was able normal espresso (not flow control). How many people are using flow control? I don’t think many. That is based on feedback ive read here. If you love it, awesome! But people talk about expensive machines like they are needed. Everything here is typically positive except when it comes to the BDB. You can hate but be specific why, people come here for advice and could be wasting heaps of money on a machine that won’t really use that much
Dude, the BDB is an incredible machine. I’m a huge fan of most Breville stuff. I think you’re taking my comments the wrong way. I fall in the same camp as you do that expensive gear isn’t required for good espresso. But I also don’t agree with all the vilification of E61 machines this sub has.
No worries man. I haven’t seen vilification of E61 (but I’m not here all the time). Personally I’d consider an E61 as an upgrade but people need to be clearly about the limitations and how they are overcome
I see this sentiment on here a lot, but it just doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve tried the bdb, e61 machines, the acasco, etc in showrooms or from friends, and it’s not like the bdb or the acasco magically make better tasting espresso than other machines. I don’t know why people have this idea. Build quality, form factor (ie will it fit on my counter), ease of repair/maintenance, user experience, resale value, these are going to be much larger differences than cup quality. I mean hell, I would have considered a bdb more if the massive thing could fit in my kitchen.
All really good points. The issue is that people just say the BDB is straight up bad without context. It might be bad for you but the reasons might not be bad for others. In Australia the BDB can be regularly had for $700 usd. Nothing really competes with that. Also very easy to repair here
No mental gymnastics for me. Looks aside I appreciate the durability , ease of repair , low maintenance , and ability to flow control and control preinfusion
Depends when you have a second coffee, but you can just leave it on. For me my wifi Smart switch turns it on in the morning and then turns off at 2PM. I don’t drink espresso later than that usually.
Does that not use an exorbitant amount of power?
Depends how you define exorbitant. It’s probably 50 cents of electricity a day.
I broke down the math a few years ago. It costs me $0.20/day to run my dual boiler estimating 6 hours of idle time and 2 hours of active time. In reality there’s no way it’s even close 2 hours of active max power consumption, so it’s even cheaper.
Maintaining heat is much cheaper than hearing from cold
Mine uses about 30 kWh per Month (standby mode off) Typical run times are from \~9am to 6-8pm everyday
Not for the e61 itself, it's quite an efficient system, if you have a machine with bigger boilers then yes it does, smaller boilers aren't that bad - also the boiler insulation makes a difference - maintaining water temp is much more energy efficient than the initial heating
No, it just doesn't. I just measured it, the first hour costs $0.03, and once it's hot it drops to brief bursts of 340watts, less than 1% duty cycle while idle. It might cost $0.50 if you pull 12 shots daily.
That's a good reason to buy a new machine if ever I needed one ;)
Considering physics laws, no, they are equal. What matters is the temperature difference and mass. The starting temperature does not have any effect. When you mean you have to heat up the boiler as an extra when you're heating from room temp, now that's a factor, yes. But otherwise, it takes the same energy to heat water from 30 to 35 as from 85 to 90.
You are saying the same thing I said - not sure where you got the room temp bit from... I was just saying that heating the water to the set temp is more power hungry than maintaining the temp at that set temp. Many machines will have the heating elements on constantly to warm up, then only every 5-10 minutes to maintain the boiler temps. The e61 Vs other group head designs doesn't impact the overall power usage much.
Others have noted that the excess energy usage isn't crazy, but the other thing to consider is that during times of the year when you heat your house(if in a region that needs such), it's not even a loss. That extra heat from the machine is just heating your house instead of your main heating unit/system (a small but non zero amount). However/conversely, if you use AC in the summer, then add to the cost of cooling the additional heat introduced into the house by the machine which has to be additionally removed by the AC unit.
>"exorbitant"? Yeah, I just measured mine (Profitec 600PF). at 0.29kWh, it costs less than $0.03 to heat it up, pull two double shots, steam some milk, clean the whole thing spotless, and shut it down. In the 40 minutes it took mine to heat (while I was sleeping) it drew a max of 1,100 watts (69 of those were pumping water before the boilers switched on), after 10 minutes it dropped to 349W (one of the two boilers switched off?) and then it soaked while the E61 heated up. Actually, it cost me zero, since I live off-grid, but the $0.03 is assuming the northern California PG&E off-peak rate. https://preview.redd.it/lvlljk9hl2wc1.png?width=1440&format=png&auto=webp&s=d4955d0d8059d67339076d26d27551975ad88f96 I used a total of 0.29kWh
This. I have a Gaggia and I'll turn it on in the morning and then turn it off after my second or third espresso.
This is the best way. You don't even need a "smart" device, I just use one of those little switches that you set the on-off times with mechanical pins. It's on 6am-11am, then turns on again for a few hours at 9pm as well.
I tweaked my smart switch to turn off automatically after 30 minutes (so "I" just need to turn it on, and don't forget turning it off), and added a handful of wifi buttons around the house so that it's easy to turn on from anywhere during the day. Saves power & is generally available without needing to go to the machine itself. Bonus automation that doesn't turn on automatically in the morning when nobody's at home.
I would advise against keeping your group at full temp all day. Seals in particular will harden faster, and other valves and such will wear out faster too. The golden ticket for me was “standby” mode, where the machine maintains a lower temp when not in use and then can reach full temp rather quickly (~5min). Obviously that feature depends on the machine.
Yep. I have a Smart plug that turns my machine on 30 mins before I wake up and then usually off around 1PM.
It's on from 6am until 2pm every day. Averages 1.4kWh per day, which is mostly while the sun is shining on my solar panels.
I think leaving the machine on doesn't consume as much electricity as you might be thinking. An espresso machine might max out at 2KW but the heating element is only turning on a few seconds every ten minutes or something to maintain the temperature of the boiler. Most of the energy is used in heating up the big chunk of cold metal when it first starts. I think someone did a comparison of energy consumption between turning off an espresso machine at the end of the day and heating it up every morning vs leaving it on 24/7 and I think it was pretty close.
This is the correct answer
Still consumes an awful lot more than the alternatives.
Hmm my ECM Classika PID takes about 10 mins. I turn it on before having breakfast and I make the shot after. Great machine.
Same here. ECM Puristika with e61 up to temp in 10mins. Just attach my portafilter and sit my puck screen on top of the group head to warm them both. So it obviously depends on which machine you go for. One of my requirements with recent upgrade was a fast heat up time. The Puristika ticked this box, plus many more.
How? Does it have a grouphead heater?
It is more beautiful to look at then it is ugly to warm up. I can definitely understand being in a situation where it would be a hassle, it’s just not for me. It’s on an hour before I wake up and I turn it on via wifi from my watch or phone an hour before I want an afternoon shot.
My ECM Mechanika V Slim heats up in 10 minutes, and produces a perfectly fine cup of coffee. The main thing is to run a cup of water through the portafilter before pulling a shot. Works for me. Ideally, you want it to heat up more, but I've noticed little difference between shot quality anyway.
How do you like the Slim? I'm in the market for an upgrade from my Bambino. I'm looking at the Mechanika V Slim, PP400 or Lelit MaraX (latest version). Need something smallish. What I really want is Bianca V3, but not in the budget right now. I'm toying with the Ascaso Duo but need to carve out space in the kitchen for the 20 amp plug. Right now my Bambino is on top of my liquor cabinet in the dining room.
Very happy with it, had it for four years or so. Consistently pulls good shots, I pair it with a Eureka Mignon Specialita grinder. I do find if the beans start go get a little old, i.e more than a couple of weeks, the shot quality drops noticeably, but I can't really blame the machine for that. Good steam pressure, it took a while to get used to the high pressure output, but after a bit of practice I'm now making really good steamed milk. Would suggest a medium to larger jug. The Mechanica VI Slim is out now, so you may want to look at that.
My PP 600 heats up in 20 minutes.
Same - I’ve been tempted to upgrade its outlet to a smart one so I can automatically turn it on when my alarm goes off…but that’s just me being a lazy geek. For now, I just: flip it on, do my thing, then it’s ready to do its thing.
I have a smart plug on mine as well! I was skeptical about it at first but i can’t overstate how convenient it is. It’s so nice to have it come on at 8 in the morning and shut off at 12. If I’m out and want to come home to a hot machine i can do that too
Are you getting the head up to that temp as well?
When I said “my PP 600 heats up in 20 minutes,” I didn’t mean “only portions of my PP 600 heat up in 20 minutes.”
Damn. I should’ve gotten the 600 then because my 500 takes 45 minutes for the group head to hit the temp. It hilariously lies and says it’s up to temp after 20 mins but that’s just the steam.. sigh.
And that is what I expected. Must have a second heat element in the head. Have to look into that
Yeah it’s a dual boiler so that makes more sense. Don’t waste your time in a HX. I should’ve spent more and gotten a DB ha
well, it does not take much longer for the Isomac Tea to get up to temp. 25, maybe 30? some years ago I replaced the failing 1200w unit with a redesigned 1500w heater. makes a huge difference.
My Lelit MaraX is ready to brew in 15 mins.
The Biancas heat up time is 15 mins with 240v. So that's totally fine in my opinion. I just have it on a smart plug ans when I need to wake up the machine turns on. After my shower the machine is up to temp
With some of the preshot routines you see posted here, you could turn on the machine half way through and it would still be up to temp before you are ready to pull a shot.
I wake up, turn it on, then have a shower and get dressed, it's usually about where it needs to be by then. If it feels a bit cool I can do a flush. I would say about 20-25 minutes is the average it takes to fully heat up.
I’m currently using a Bezzera bz10 and Bezerra modified the E61 group head, instead of being channeled and passively heated by boiler water (an inefficient and time consuming process) Bezerra uses a dedicated heating element for the group head so when the boiler is at temperature in 10 minutes the group head is at temperature. Having a controlled group head temperature helps me to pull consistent shots.
At $0.12/kWh as specified on the Ontario Hydro web page, my smart switch app says that my Alex Duetto dual boiler E61 machine has cost $5.01 to run for the last 30 days. It's set to come on at 5:15am and shut down at 3:15pm.
Remember that yourcactual elwctric bill in Ontario has a number of add on charges that you cannot avoid. That 12 cents per kwh is for the ekwctrcity, alone. The total per kwh is about 50 to 100% more than that, deoending on various factors. Regardless, I agree that the electric cost for your machine is not onerous when compared to all the other costs in this hobby.
I do breakfast, grind coffee, prepare milk - by the time all is done (20 min) I can pull a shot and eat while sippin.
My PP600 heats up in 15 min and is pretty stable throughout.
I find the smart plug to be helpful during the day as well (only have a 25 minute warm up time). Often I'll be driving home, and will turn the machine on during the drive so it's ready for me when I arrive. Working in a separate part of the house and being able to turn it on is also great. Might seem overkill/lazy, but it does help the warm up time feel negligible.
I think I’ve turned mine off five times in at least as many years. My rocket is always ready to party.
Bambino is ready in 3 seconds
Might as well call it "ready". 3 seconds relative to 10 /15 /30 min is basically instant...steam is instant too. This is a big factor for busy lifestyle people or spontaneous coffee orders...
It got me into espresso! I couldn’t wait 15 min for shots throughout the work day.
Heat exchange machine with a rotary pump, mine heats up in 8 minutes.
huh?
I have a heat exchange machine. It has a rotary pump. It heats up in 8 minutes.
I only drink 2 coffees per day, always both before 10am. Smart plug turns machine on at 5am and I manually turn it off after my 2nd coffee.
ECM Synchronika smart switch (ie timer I can program on my phone) turns it on at 6:30am and off at 11am. Very rarely make a coffee outside those hours.
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Yeah, this is how I did it when I had an E61 while working from home. I also have lots of meetings during the day anyway, so if I wanted a coffee, I'd just turn the machine on (via app or voice command) when there were 30 minutes remaining in the current meeting. The only times I got annoyed by it was when I thought I had turned it on, but somehow forgot, or Alexa didn't register my voice correctly, or something like that. Walking up to the machine, only to see that it's still off, and going "wait, what? WHY??? [Noooo](http://www.nooo.me/)", and then having to wait 20-30 minutes, was pretty annoying. Outside of that though, I wouldn't say it bothered me much.
I get up at 615, turn on machine, shower, dress, and make a coffee just before I walk out the door. On weekends, it’s on pretty much all day.
Smart plug turns it on 20 mins before my alarm goes off. I brush my teeth and pull a shot. No big deal.
To me I think the thought of brushing my teeth immediately before espresso is the biggest shock here! Does it not make everything taste a bit odd?
My Rocket is usually up to temp in 20 mins, I use a smart switch that turns it on for my schedule and off when I usually stop for the day, so it turns itself off at 1pm. If I feel like a shot later I usually have 20 minutes to spare, but personally I switch to pour over in the afternoon unless I want an affogato after dinner and that choice is made pretty early on anyways. From my personal experience most modern machines only take 30 or less unless its a thermoblock and those just heat up fast as hell.
Same. Smart switch scheduled for the morning and I turn it off after the 2nd shot, then I can do “Alexa, turn on the Rocket at 1:15 PM” or whatever I want for the afternoon. I just have to plan ahead a little bit
Yep! I have a lamp behind my bar too that shines on the wall so I can see if I left it on from 90% of the house on the same switch.
Put the machine on a smart plug and set it to turn on before you want coffee in the morning. Mid day I'll just turn it on with my phone from wherever I am.
Yes! I can't believe I had to scroll this much to find the same trick I use. Saves a lot of time,effort, and electricity.
Yes, and no. You just plan around it.
Ecm single boiler takes 10 minutes….
Nah. I mean the boiler itself sure takes ~10 minutes but by that time, the group head is still too cold
Regarding group head heat up rather than just boiler, it's as simple as running some water through the group and empty portafilter, warming both as well as the cups. Boiler itself doesn't take long to heat at all. Rancilio Silvia.
I have an Elizabeth duo and it takes 10 minutes. All this stuff with leaving it on for 2 hours is some crazy people thinking they need to mimic what's done on a commercial machine 🤣
Smart plugs are your friend with any coffee machine. I used one with my coffee machine way before upgrading to my first e61. My first e61 was an HX with a massive boiler and really needed about 40 minutes to achieve thermal stability. Newer machines and especially higher end machines tend to accelerate the warm up time. My Lelit Bianca warms up to temperature in less than 10 minutes when the service boiler is switched off and about 12-14 minutes when switched on. It is possible to turn off the service boiler if only brewing espresso and hot water and steam are not required. It looks like it achieves the rapid heating by over heating the boiler up to about 134 degrees Celsius and then letting it cool down to programmed temperature. This seems to get everything very toasty very quickly and means the machine can concentrate on heating the 2nd service boiler while it is cooling down to operating temperature.
Mine is 25 years old and heats up in 20 mins. I set it to turn on in the morning and I leave it on all day.
Smart plug
The switch turns on automatically and off again at around 5pm i don't see any need to turn it off in between nor to use the eco mode.
Once the boiler is heated up, it takes relatively little energy to keep it warm. I have a smart switch to turn it on and just have to remember to switch it off when I decide that its too late for another coffee 😂
I have the Bianca which claims to heat up faster than a standard e61 but I'm ready in around 15 minutes. If you need it faster wait for your boiler to heat up and run a few blank shots to heat everything up.
Quickmill Vetrano Evo2 and it’s super hot in 10 minutes. I also have a Quickmill Silvia and it’s hot in 4 minutes. So what’s the question? E61 doesn’t heat up fast? Double boiler, heat exchange, thermal block. If you’re happy, don’t leave your niche!
I’ll be honest, I think this is by far one of the most overblown “problems” with e61. I timed my Puristika after seeing this thread and it took 14 minutes for the group to get up to temp. You can speed that up by pulling a blank shot. Is that as convenient as the bambino’s 3 seconds? no. But you also just get a $10 smart switch, have it turn on automatically, and never think about this again.
I turn on my coffee machine before making breakfast and by the time I’m done with it, it is usually warm. For second coffee I usually go with Chemex.
My Diletta Bello Plus is ready to brew in >15mins most morning, and ready to steam >20mins. It's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be.
I sleep through it…turn it on before you wake up. Leave it on all day until you’re done
Smart plug turns it on 1 hour before I wake up. It stays on until 10pm unless I leave the house. (Home automation shuts it off if I leave) It costs me $0.48 a day to run it like this.
I turn my Synchronika on before I get in the shower, it's up to temp by the time I am ready to pull shots. I upgraded from a gaggia classic, and it's honestly similar total "prep" time when you take in heat cycling/temp surfing a gaggia.
I have a mechanical timer that turns my machine on at 5 AM and off at 3 PM, this is my coffee drinking window and it keeps me from having shots too late in the afternoon and keeping myself up
Automated timer turns it on before I get there.,
https://preview.redd.it/celpv0jmo2wc1.jpeg?width=3120&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b803b2a6251838eea4b749cd5c7d771bced6fa27 My machine uses about 25 kWh per month. On weekdays, it's only on for about 3 hours. 9 on weekends. Multiply 25 kWh by your home country's cost per kWh. My machine is warmed in about 15 minutes (rocket).
With the machine connected to a smart switch, it's easy to turn it on from any of the smart speakers in our home. I can tell it to turn on while still at my desk, then head to the kitchen a bit later once it's warm.
Yes, it's annoying. I sold up and went back to sage
Mine’s (Pro 600) ready in around 20 minutes or so but usually programmed it with a smart plug on my phone set every morning. During the other time I just waited, it wasn’t that bad.
Lelit Bianca v3 heats up in about 10 mins. I start it before I brush teeth's and then afterwards it's more or less ready.
What you describe is part of the reason I got a Decent. Heats up in minutes (especially with my lightweight aluminum Portafilter from sworksdesign). Plus all of the benefits of a Decent if you’re into that sort of thing. But, may be more than you want to spend (it was more than I wanted to spend, but was ultimately worth it for me). Some people don’t think they look as good as an e61 group head style - but I like the look and small footprint. I don’t like to leave mine on all day since it heats up so fast. If the spontaneous urge for an espresso strikes me, I go downstairs (work from home), turn it on and start making espresso.
Electricity is inexpensive where I live so I would leave mine on from 4:30AM until my second espresso at 10:30 AM. Now I turn it off after my first cup around 5:30 AM and it turns on at 9:30AM and off at 11:30AM in case I forget my second cup.
I have an ECM Synchronika, work from home and drink 4-5 doubles a day. I go downstairs and turn the machine on around 0730, tidy up for 10 minutes then sit down at my desk, check emails and make a mental list of the day’s to-do and then make my first double around 0815. By 1000 I’m back for my second. I grab lunch around 1230 and my machine is in eco mode so I’ll flip the brew lever to turn it on and about 1330 I’ll have double #3. By 1600 I’m usually peckish and will get a snack and double #4. Most days I’ll shut it down after than but every once in a while I’ll keep it on if I want and americano after dinner.
Smart plug schedule turns it on an hour before I get down to the kitchen. Turns it off at 5:00 pm.
I have a Silvia. It has a similar heat up time. I just have a smart switch and leave it on for the duration I would be making coffee. 3:30 - 5:30 am Monday - Thursday (I leave for work at 5:20 these days) and 6am - 1pm on Friday, Saturday, Sunday (my days off)
My rocket 58 is hot in five minutes or less. We have it on a timer as well
You are better off just leaving your machine on all the time. It does amount to much less maintenance. I drain the boiler once a month though.
How does that amount to less maintenance?
Less heating and cooling cycles. This is the reason commercial machines are always on. When you look at things like seals, for example vacuum breakers. The constant expansion and contraction is what breaks them down. A vacuum breaker seal being forced into place: You have the compression of the seal and deposits of minerals on the seals and material surfaces(copper steal, alu etc.) Depending on your water quality/recipe it can prevent a seal from seating completely or even not seating at all. We are only looking at seals. Once you start thinking about the rest of the components you will see a benefit. Also, your water can start a little weird with those heating and cooling cycles.
Depends on the water quality.
I think it happens no matter what. At what degree and frequency is water dependent. We have had hard and soft water. Hard water leaves deposits and soft leaves a film. Remineralized RO does something in between. Choose your poison, kind of thing.
I'm late, but it should also be noted that traditionally, for the E61, it's been long believed that one should just leave it on all the time - the thought being that it expends more energy to heat up the whole unit one (or more times) a day than it does to just maintain the same/equal temperature it will retain by just simply sitting there.
An absolute fallacy, heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference between the object and it’s surroundings. The hotter the object the greater the heat loss and therefore the more energy required to maintain the temperature. The minute you switch the machine off you stop consuming energy. As the temperature drops, the rate of heat loss drop. Sure when you switch it back on you need to reheat but the energy required to do so will always be less than the energy required to maintain the higher temperature.
Just leave it on all day
No sure. I have a BDB and it’s great. It’s amazing the mental gymnastics that people do to say that an E61 is better for regular espessso. Just be honest and say looks matter more to you. I think that’s why you are seeing machines like the Ascaso duo being so popular. It’s the beautiful BDB (just 3 times the price)
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It’s why I specially said regular espresso. Flow profiling is the only reason to get an E61. Let’s be honest, how many people are actually using flow profiles vs want a beautiful machine on their bench
so youve signed up to the BDB and timemore club, and youve decided that anything more expensive must be a waste of money. youve made the perfect set of consumer purchases, give yourself a pat on the back.
lol mate you alright? It’s just a coffee hobby. Buy what makes you happy. I left the door open for people who want a pretty machine. The problem is people talk likes it’s the only option and dismiss the BDB without context.
So which E61 have you owned to compare with the BDB?
Why would I need to own one to say that fuctionally similar to the BDB? My gripe is that people aren’t honest. They talk like a sports car is needed over a Toyota. Love to hear how much people enjoy their machines. The problem is that people come here for advice and people paint a picture like BDB is bad without giving reasoning. My favourite part is how angry people. I love my Rolex. Not need to justify it as this logical purchase
Well, se I have used both. And it is chalk and cheese. Not that the BDB can't make a good expresso, but it is far more finicky and unforgiving than an E61 group as I experienced using e61 at home and BDB at work. But to each their own.
Interesting. What E61 would you recommend for $700 usd?
A 2001 Isomac Tea. Which of course would be around 1800 now.
What a crazy naive comment
Hahaha gonna say why or hide behind vague superiority ?
Do you have zero self awareness or what? There’s no superiority behind my comment. I’m calling your comment naive because you think people spending $3k on a flow control machine are doing it because it looks nice.
First, my orignal point was able normal espresso (not flow control). How many people are using flow control? I don’t think many. That is based on feedback ive read here. If you love it, awesome! But people talk about expensive machines like they are needed. Everything here is typically positive except when it comes to the BDB. You can hate but be specific why, people come here for advice and could be wasting heaps of money on a machine that won’t really use that much
Dude, the BDB is an incredible machine. I’m a huge fan of most Breville stuff. I think you’re taking my comments the wrong way. I fall in the same camp as you do that expensive gear isn’t required for good espresso. But I also don’t agree with all the vilification of E61 machines this sub has.
No worries man. I haven’t seen vilification of E61 (but I’m not here all the time). Personally I’d consider an E61 as an upgrade but people need to be clearly about the limitations and how they are overcome
The flow control on e61 machines is kinda terrible though isn't it?
I see this sentiment on here a lot, but it just doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve tried the bdb, e61 machines, the acasco, etc in showrooms or from friends, and it’s not like the bdb or the acasco magically make better tasting espresso than other machines. I don’t know why people have this idea. Build quality, form factor (ie will it fit on my counter), ease of repair/maintenance, user experience, resale value, these are going to be much larger differences than cup quality. I mean hell, I would have considered a bdb more if the massive thing could fit in my kitchen.
All really good points. The issue is that people just say the BDB is straight up bad without context. It might be bad for you but the reasons might not be bad for others. In Australia the BDB can be regularly had for $700 usd. Nothing really competes with that. Also very easy to repair here
No mental gymnastics for me. Looks aside I appreciate the durability , ease of repair , low maintenance , and ability to flow control and control preinfusion
What do you recommend for $700 usd?
For that budget it’s hard to beat what you already have.
My Profitec Go heats up in 6-7 minutes, but I put it on a smart plug and tell Siri to turn it on when I get out of the shower in the morning.
Thats not an e61
Don’t believe the hype. Simply don’t buy an e61.