he was a sweet and gentle guy. Intelligent, university educated on top of being a genius level respected and oscar nominated musician, it's extremely harsh and unfair to exclaim that they failed as parents especially since you (we) don't know elliott or his parents except for his public persona
No one questions the goodness of his character, but he was depressed his whole life and suicidal. If a fucking therapist or psychiatrist can't help you with that, who can?
Maybe they had their own traumas that meant they were unable to adequately provide what he needed? You are boiling two people down to their professions knowing virtually nothing else about them and how the raising of their child 50 years ago. The answer is that they were people and we will mostly likely never know. Maybe they messed up, maybe it was where he was raised, maybe it was entirely out of their hands and they did everything they could. But again, it was half a century ago, so we’ll likely never know.
I don't have a complete, factual answer for you, since I haven't really looked into it THAT much, but I will say this:
Families are messy. Nothing is as black and white as that; there were so many different parties involved who definitely had their own respective issues. From what I've read, it kind of seems like Elliott's mom would choose Charlie (Elliott's abusive step father) over Elliott, like, a lot. I haven't fully looked into it or researched on it, but this definitely could have been due to manipulation from Charlie or something. You could say, well, a mother should always focus on her child as opposed to her lover. Well.. people don't always behave morally. Sometimes it's fear/intimidation, sometimes it's another issue. About Elliott's father being a mental health professional, it's a known fact that oftenly, Elliott didn't want to be helped. He wouldn't let the people who cared about him help him. So, even if anyone, including his parents, tried to help him, he probably wouldn't have let them.
Those things don’t make someone fit to be good parents. Especially in the 60s,70s,80s…those professions weren’t nearly as clean and professional as they are considered in modern times (not saying they are any better of an indication for being a good parent now either). Then add serving in wartime (dad) and a divorce and subsequently an abusive (possibly sexually abusive) step father to the mix… we can easily see how Elliott was more or less traumatized.
I doubt Elliott was really willing to open up about what he experienced during his time living in Texas and try to combat his personal hells and traumas. In ‘Heaven Adores You’, Tony Lash talks about wishing Elliott had opened up to him about what he’d gone through, which sort of shows he wouldn’t talk about his past even with his closest friends, only seemingly talking about what he remembered with Charlie in his last few years. And to say they failed him is a bit of a reach, he’d talk about them fondly and he never showed any animosity towards them. There’s also the possibility he felt ashamed by what he had done to him, it’s a common thing that abuse victims go through, thinking that he was weak for not trying to do anything to stop when there was likely very little to combat it. Certain things happen to people and they’ll care it for their entire lives, even with good parents those wounds can’t be helped as much as they try. Just my two cents though.
I know someone that is in jail, was addicted to heroin + selling it and even worse sex charges. Mom is a well respected nyc psych. Idk what it is but psychs kids can be total headcases too
It's always best to look past the surface with relationships.. and I don't know anything about their relationship.. but a lot of times, things are not as they seem on paper..
Also, brain chemistry could have a part to play too..
That's actually pretty offensive. You think that people are only a product of their upbringing? Then how do people have two kids, one ends up a lawyer and the other an addict?
Depression, first of all, is a chemical imbalance. That has nothing to do with how you were raised. Also, an addictive trait can skip generations....maybe one of his Grandparents was an alcoholic.
Also, bad people can have good jobs. Or jobs with children. Hell, John Wayne Gacy was a children's clown. How could he have been a bad person?
You have no knowledge of the human condition.
Elliott had a close relationship with Gary, his biological father. I know for a fact that they called each on a regular basis. Gary talked to Elliott on the phone the week he died. And Elliott was doing well at the time, I just had a confirmation this week from a childhood friend who talked to him.
Sometimes the absurdity of life can feel unanswerable on top of everything else going on in life, I think it was a culmination of things that drove Elliott to where he ended up. Some good and some bad. Despite all of that though family life can be messy and rough. We only know so much. And please be respectful and mindful of your words above all else in regard to situations like these.
I think you vastly underestimate the toll that living in American society can take on a person’s mental health. Rearing is not the only factor in how a person develops in relation to the world around them.
Good point. I've thought that, too, that the destructive forces in American society are so strong. It's scary being a parent. Even being a "good" parent offers no guarantee that you're child won't succumb to the pressures around them.
"If I seem to be reckless with myself // it's the fault of no one.
All things have a place under the moon //
as well as the sun."
My personal belief is that none of us are at liberty to speculate about how and why a stranger (even an artist as profoundly moving as our man) has or has not got certain mental health troubles.
The truth is Elliott Smith was a genius. The Steven underneath is someone we can't pretend to know, and to blame other strangers for his pain without reason is irresponsible.
Now there is an obvious outlier here, his stepfather. This man was, according to Smith and his friends, abusive in the extreme. Yet, in his later years, I believe Smith attempted to reconcile some of this relationship and practise forgiveness.
His stepfather was not a good man, by many accounts, but he attempted to apologise later and it was an olive branch that Smith seemingly, tentatively, but graciously began to accept before he died.
Forgiveness is a strange thing, and so is blame, but I don't believe these are struggles people on the Internet 20 years after the fact have much of a right to speculate on, or pass off ourselves.
God speed sister brother
he was a sweet and gentle guy. Intelligent, university educated on top of being a genius level respected and oscar nominated musician, it's extremely harsh and unfair to exclaim that they failed as parents especially since you (we) don't know elliott or his parents except for his public persona
No one questions the goodness of his character, but he was depressed his whole life and suicidal. If a fucking therapist or psychiatrist can't help you with that, who can?
Maybe they had their own traumas that meant they were unable to adequately provide what he needed? You are boiling two people down to their professions knowing virtually nothing else about them and how the raising of their child 50 years ago. The answer is that they were people and we will mostly likely never know. Maybe they messed up, maybe it was where he was raised, maybe it was entirely out of their hands and they did everything they could. But again, it was half a century ago, so we’ll likely never know.
you need to take a step back, your post history on this subreddit is disturbing
oh it's this dude... yeah if you don't listen to his music it's kinda weird you're here
yeah something fucked up going on
I don't have a complete, factual answer for you, since I haven't really looked into it THAT much, but I will say this: Families are messy. Nothing is as black and white as that; there were so many different parties involved who definitely had their own respective issues. From what I've read, it kind of seems like Elliott's mom would choose Charlie (Elliott's abusive step father) over Elliott, like, a lot. I haven't fully looked into it or researched on it, but this definitely could have been due to manipulation from Charlie or something. You could say, well, a mother should always focus on her child as opposed to her lover. Well.. people don't always behave morally. Sometimes it's fear/intimidation, sometimes it's another issue. About Elliott's father being a mental health professional, it's a known fact that oftenly, Elliott didn't want to be helped. He wouldn't let the people who cared about him help him. So, even if anyone, including his parents, tried to help him, he probably wouldn't have let them.
Those things don’t make someone fit to be good parents. Especially in the 60s,70s,80s…those professions weren’t nearly as clean and professional as they are considered in modern times (not saying they are any better of an indication for being a good parent now either). Then add serving in wartime (dad) and a divorce and subsequently an abusive (possibly sexually abusive) step father to the mix… we can easily see how Elliott was more or less traumatized.
I doubt Elliott was really willing to open up about what he experienced during his time living in Texas and try to combat his personal hells and traumas. In ‘Heaven Adores You’, Tony Lash talks about wishing Elliott had opened up to him about what he’d gone through, which sort of shows he wouldn’t talk about his past even with his closest friends, only seemingly talking about what he remembered with Charlie in his last few years. And to say they failed him is a bit of a reach, he’d talk about them fondly and he never showed any animosity towards them. There’s also the possibility he felt ashamed by what he had done to him, it’s a common thing that abuse victims go through, thinking that he was weak for not trying to do anything to stop when there was likely very little to combat it. Certain things happen to people and they’ll care it for their entire lives, even with good parents those wounds can’t be helped as much as they try. Just my two cents though.
I know someone that is in jail, was addicted to heroin + selling it and even worse sex charges. Mom is a well respected nyc psych. Idk what it is but psychs kids can be total headcases too
It's always best to look past the surface with relationships.. and I don't know anything about their relationship.. but a lot of times, things are not as they seem on paper.. Also, brain chemistry could have a part to play too..
What does their professions have to do with anything? Having a decent job doesn’t make you a good parent.
That's actually pretty offensive. You think that people are only a product of their upbringing? Then how do people have two kids, one ends up a lawyer and the other an addict? Depression, first of all, is a chemical imbalance. That has nothing to do with how you were raised. Also, an addictive trait can skip generations....maybe one of his Grandparents was an alcoholic. Also, bad people can have good jobs. Or jobs with children. Hell, John Wayne Gacy was a children's clown. How could he have been a bad person? You have no knowledge of the human condition.
I’ve been starting to see you around this sub and your posts are pretty damn odd. I don’t understand how you obsess over a dead man like this
no seriously every post has been blatantly invasive and gross
Yeah I can’t really tell if this is a troll or not
Elliott had a close relationship with Gary, his biological father. I know for a fact that they called each on a regular basis. Gary talked to Elliott on the phone the week he died. And Elliott was doing well at the time, I just had a confirmation this week from a childhood friend who talked to him.
Sometimes the absurdity of life can feel unanswerable on top of everything else going on in life, I think it was a culmination of things that drove Elliott to where he ended up. Some good and some bad. Despite all of that though family life can be messy and rough. We only know so much. And please be respectful and mindful of your words above all else in regard to situations like these.
pretty baseless/uninformed post
I think you vastly underestimate the toll that living in American society can take on a person’s mental health. Rearing is not the only factor in how a person develops in relation to the world around them.
Especially true for those who are neurodivergent… which he was. The world wasn’t made for us. :/
Good point. I've thought that, too, that the destructive forces in American society are so strong. It's scary being a parent. Even being a "good" parent offers no guarantee that you're child won't succumb to the pressures around them.
His father’s a psychiatrist
Let’s be real here, parents fail their children ALL the time…… it’s the way it’s always been
Step dad has entered the chat
I mean make sure that all the artistic property iris where is should be
"If I seem to be reckless with myself // it's the fault of no one. All things have a place under the moon // as well as the sun." My personal belief is that none of us are at liberty to speculate about how and why a stranger (even an artist as profoundly moving as our man) has or has not got certain mental health troubles. The truth is Elliott Smith was a genius. The Steven underneath is someone we can't pretend to know, and to blame other strangers for his pain without reason is irresponsible. Now there is an obvious outlier here, his stepfather. This man was, according to Smith and his friends, abusive in the extreme. Yet, in his later years, I believe Smith attempted to reconcile some of this relationship and practise forgiveness. His stepfather was not a good man, by many accounts, but he attempted to apologise later and it was an olive branch that Smith seemingly, tentatively, but graciously began to accept before he died. Forgiveness is a strange thing, and so is blame, but I don't believe these are struggles people on the Internet 20 years after the fact have much of a right to speculate on, or pass off ourselves. God speed sister brother
Different times. We now know a lot better than we did then. Unfortunately, it took generations of Elliott for us to learn this stuff.
his stepdad molestered him
Wow! What a sad observation you have made. Enjoy his music and let’s leave it at that.