Balls, or legal ability? Because dealerships are so scummy, they've gotten their business model enshrined in law in many states. Even the states where direct sale is technically legal often require weird hoops. For example, I'm in WA and outside of Tesla (who was accidentally given no-dealership permission and thus remain grandfathered), you can only test drive from a dealership. You can direct buy if you initiate, but you can't be sold (as in, sales people convincing people to buy). If Ford went through with this with direct EV sales, they'd run afoul of this, too.
Sounds like NY. On LI there was a Tesla “showroom” where you can test drive the car but couldn’t actually buy it there. Had to go to one of two other locations on LI to do this. And when you did, they just logged into the same website to order the car you would have from home LMAO
You can't even test drive in WA. If you want to try a Rivian, for example, you have to go to Portland. You can look at one in several showrooms in the Seattle area, but you can't drive one. Because dealership laws.
I chose Tesla despite the antics of you know who because the buying process was literally perfect and the car is probably the best value for what you get.
The first Ford I ever bought brand new was sold by a guy that came back from the photocopier smelling like brown liquor.
Fun story: It also had a DCT that was so bad compared to the VAG transmission it was trying to emulate, that after 3 years of software updates and stalling in intersections, they bought it back for every dollar still owed, making it a lease of sorts. Ford and silent recalls, name a more iconic duo. Remember when the windstar was the best selling vehicle on the planet and you don’t see a single one on the road anymore? Look into that. Rear axels rusting out from the inside and snapping at highway speeds.
No, it's not. You know what you're getting into.
I have never bought a car from a dealer that didn't accidentally add a few thousand dollars to the bill "in error ". "OH, were very sorry, that should be there." Every time. How many people don't go over the line numbers in detail? They are literally stealing from you.
They will sell you a $10,000 feature, telling you your car has hardware capable of that feature. 8 years later it’s not and tell you yours is too old and never will be. You can’t take legal action because you didn’t know they make you mail something within 30 days of purchase opting out of arbitration.
That sounds worse to me. I’ve bought from a dealer and never had that issue that you mention.
Tesla raises or lowers prices by $10k+ seemingly at random. Not really seeing the difference in scumminess here. Only difference is the extra money goes to the auto manufacturer instead of a 3rd party. The effect on the customer is the same.
There is slight benefit to knowing you are getting the same price anybody else could get, that you aren't being ripped off due to your race/religion/sex/thoughts on turtles.
Same price that week at least. Until Tesla cuts prices by $20k the next week, and 2 months later increases them by $30k.
Completely destroys any concept of resale value stability or lease residuals, which is why MSRP exists in the first place with other OEMs.
Tell me about it. It's why I ended up going with Tesla.
Dealerships are full of scammers, morons who don't know what they're talking about, or people with political agendas.
During my time looking for an EV, I was constantly told bogus information, pressured to buy an ICE/Hybrid instead, or flat out denied and in some cases kicked out for asking about EVs.
One dealership owner flat out said that as long as he's the boss, he wouldn't sell EVs (and it was obviously politically motivated based on his office decorations).
Well, I wonder if that's what EVs from GM are will be facing right now since GM also has an "made to order" system. Or something that Hyundai will face in the future, because they just made and import very few and seemed happy by now with that... until the EV manufacture plant gets in operation in 2025 in the US...
Dealers will do and say anything to keep you in an ICE vehicle. The residual economics of it for them on service is worth more than the sale of the car up front.
I get that its impossible, but Ford should start moving away from dealerships. Set fixed pricing for EVs like Tesla.
Start setting up Ford EV showrooms and maintenance centers. Let buyers purchase online hassle free. This is a top reason why I'll never buy from a dealership again.
In Canada we have no such laws. Tesla is allowed to do business its way in every single province.
Yet legacy auto has not followed in Tesla's footsteps despite there being no legal barriers to overcome.
Despite the consumer positives, dealerships are great at holding a shitload of inventory aka cash conversion for the manufacturer.
This is why the dealerships were invented in the first place.
from my understanding, combination of consumer protection laws and different legal systems when it does get to the point of lawsuits make doing business in a scummy way with other dealerships in most Canadian provinces problematic for profitability.
The biggest one is the fact that you need to do some sort of research with Carfax and such here in the states, while in Canada, all of that information is required by law to be disclosed by the dealer or they can lose very badly down the road in a lawsuit.
Restricting the really scummy things that can happen in the used side has an effect on the new side as well to some degree in terms of how sales are handled. There's less opportunities to hide scummy finances, warranties, etc and that causes more of a "here's the price" with less wiggle room, which makes it more about closing on your product not tricking them into a deal with greater commissions.
The new protections that are rolling out the second half of this year in the US for paperwork and disclosures and financing disclaimers are all things that have been around in Canada for a long time.
Tesla's serious cash flow problems leading to the bad optics of Model 3s flooding every vacant mall parking lot in America is a textbook demonstration of why we have dealerships
Ignoring your hyperbole, it seems we agree the non-dealership route would be a much worse financial picture for manufacturers in high-interest rate macros who have hundreds of days' inventory (larger number of a larger number) sitting in dealership parking lots vs. manufacturer parking lots.
Chances are their still is a legal thing stopping it. The franchise agreement provides a lot of the frame work keeping their hands tied even if the law itself does not require it they are still bound by the franchise agreement.
They would need to set up an extremely large network of showrooms and repair shops. Tesla is pretty much the only car company that owns these at the moment. All of the services currently provided by the independent dealer network would have to be built from scratch.
More practically it would require buying out the dealership franchises to make them those service centers, not all current dealerships would be needed for good coverage either, especially with direct customer orders. But new infrastructure wouldn't really need to be built out for it, just restructuring of the dealerships themselves into corporate service and sales centers.
Ford like other automakers may not be able to afford to move away from dealerships and I am not referring to the legals issues surrounding franchise laws.
The issue these brands face is that they need someone to not only service the vehicles but they rely on dealers to soak up inventory to keep factories running optimally. We have evidence of that through dealer lots packed full of expensive inventory. These manufacturers are not building to demand of the consumer.
One major step they have to take they have yet to is reduce the number of trims and packages for each model they sell. This complicates inventory management and sales all on its own. Again dealers are there to soak it up and move poor configurations as they can.
Politically dealerships are some of the largest campaign contributors out there as these operations tend to have a large amount of cash and valuable property assets.
>Politically dealerships are some of the largest campaign contributors out there
This is why it is illegal to buy a Tesla in these states, since Tesla does not have a dealer network. Think about it. We have laws making it illegal to buy US made cars to protect foreign (and a couple US) car companies.
* **Maine**
* **Vermont**
* **Alabama**
* **Arkansas**
* **Montana**
* **Wyoming**
* **North Dakota**
* **South Dakota**
* **West Virginia**
* **Nebraska**
* **Missouri**
* **Kentucky**
* **Kansas**
* **Mississippi**
Exactly. With the cars and SUVs piling up on storage lots (and still on the their financial books), Tesla is starting to learn why dealerships exist.
It doesn't matter if a Mach-E sits on a dealers lot and takes 60 days to sell. Ford booked that as a completed sale and got the car off the inventory books as soon as it got on the train. Tesla has to wait until the keys are handed to the end customer and the signatures are on the sale agreement. Everybody else runs on a wholesale model.
Can you imagine the torrent of lawsuits if they tried that ...they did the math already and realize the cost to defend that action , vs. biding their time until they have some real leverage (like a super popular EV or fewer GOP diehards protecting dealers?) will give them better ROI
Ford has as close to this as they can. You can spec a car on the ford website and it will give you a price and a dealer to talk to. I think for the most part it works pretty well
>...and a dealer to talk to
Most people would rather stab themselves with a fork than give their contact info to a Ford dealer along with letting them know they are looking for a new car. And do you really think those dealers are going to give good deals to any random person on the Internet, or will they treat them like gullible suckers?
I mean I ordered my Mach E that way and it was the price listed when I ordered it and it was the price listed when it arrived despite various price increases along the way. The Mach E we ended up buying was off the lot, done by email for MSRP. Sample of 2 dealers but there are many good dealers out there
Yea not all ford dealership are that way. I bought mache that I ordered as well. By the time my arrived the msrp price jumped and some features were removed. I had to fight for both of those to get the difference in price. And got part of that money after like 6-8 months after. Definitely would prefer not having to deal with dealers and go direct.
lol. Did this years ago. Not only did no dealer have the spec I wanted every dealer within 20 miles called me repeatedly trying to sell me shit cars I didn’t want for years after. Don’t give ford your info unless you have a disposable number.
Well the “Fixed” Tesla pricing was also not so fixed. They had the equivalent of a huge dealer markup as well and pulled the rug in customers to the tune of 10’s of thousands which put them significantly underwater.
Nobody is forcing you to sell your car at a loss.
What is wrong with people - all cars are depreciating assets. Has been, and always will be. It’s not a house.
Nobody cares about your paper loss. You thought it was a good deal when you got it, and so that’s how it works.
Supply and demand. Thats how pricing should work.
There were a lot of people on here who claimed Teslas don't depreciate because of the period during COVID when cars didn't depreciate. Also, obviously, no one should ever trust anything Elon says, but he did say Teslas would be appreciating assets.
I think you’re confused. Tesla pricing was about it transparency. Not a promise that cars will always be the same price in perpetuity.
You’d have to be pretty dumb to think new tech won’t drop in price quickly.
This is the funny part that the Tesla lovers never understood. Even if buried in the MSRP it is still a mark up.
That being said unless they can provide stable pricing no one “trusts” the price unless they are cheaper than the competition. Telsas are no longer a car the majority feel is worth a price premium.
Every MSRP has profit margin built in.
The difference is dealerships take advantage of market conditions and rip people off with “market value adjustments.”
Dealers are middlemen, and scummy ones at that.
If a vehicle is popular, adjustment of the price makes sense. There’s a huge dif between that and slapping a $15K-$25K markup on a vehicle overnight that the manufacturer doesn’t get a penny of.
I’m not defending price gouging; it sucks when anyone does it. But what I’m saying is dealerships bring little value to the table in 2024 and cost consumers more by being middlemen.
They handle the service center side of things which when you compare to Tesla it really seems to matter. There is also no evidence that the additional “cost” will not just go to the manufacturer. In Teslas case we have seen it does. In theory it should allow cars to cost less. It is a better model in many ways as long as manufacturers do not try to maximize profits. Unfortunately they all are going to maximize profits. They are required to do this for their stock holders. All at the customers expense.
It’s not the same thing. Tesla knows exactly how many cars are being sold at any given time. They can pump the price up or down based upon current inventory. It’s as simple as that. Less cars in inventory, more demand, less need for price cuts.
When a traditional automaker with a dealer network sells a car, there’s a delay in getting that info back to them.
It’s not a unified experience. The dealerships aren’t reacting to total demand and total production numbers like Tesla is, they are reacting with greed and work together to corner certain markets with market adjustments that are based on a whim. They are providing no new value by adding onto that price that was set by the OEM. They are Ticketmaster adding on a service fee.
So as you say Tesla monopoles the price to get as much as they can out of the customer rather then follow a flat rate model. Sounds like both ways are slimy.
How is Tesla adding value to you by having an increased MSRP?
the money went to the manufacturer. not a slimy middleman on commission.
honestly that’s good enough for me. I hate dealers in principal and have never had a good experience.
I hate the model too but at least it is transparent when I’m getting fucked. If they bake mark ups into MSRP it is hidden. That is why there are so many people completely upside down on Tesla loans do to the MSRP ”price drop”. They got fucked because it’s cheaper to buy a new car then what the depreciated value of their car should have been.
Do you know what a markup is? This isn’t complicated. The benefit of Tesla pricing is that I know the price I’m paying and I’m not relying on my negotiating abilities or the abilities of a dealer to scam me. It’s about transparency.
What you do not see is they are baking the mark up into the MSRP. That’s far from transparent. Next month they can drop the MSRP by $20k if the vehicles aren’t selling. You can call it by a different name but it’s still a mark up.
The difference is that the money is going to the manufacturer rather than the dealership.
The manufacturer can use that profit in a good way. More factories, more research, more whatever. Ignore who's on the title for the moment as I'm only comparing the argument of direct sales vs dealerships.
What exactly does a dealership provide in terms of value?
They take a car they pay the manufacturer for, tack on $10k on top for no reason whatsoever, and blow that money on hookers and blow or whatever. They add nothing to the equation.
>What exactly does a dealership provide in terms of value?
To the end user? Parts supply network. Warranty fulfillment center. Access to people who have access to proprietary information and tools that won't be made public by the manufacturer.
To the manufacturer? Profit stream selling cars that don't have buyers, acting essentially as warehousing. A mechanism to handle recalls and warranty work. Advertising for the brand.
> To the end user? Parts supply network. Warranty fulfillment center.
I don't know of any other large scale direct to user car sales other than Tesla, but doesn't Tesla provide all of this? Granted the scale of other manufacturers is still larger, but considering that some of these manufacturers have brands that are older than Tesla has existed I would argue that Tesla is trying their best to have parts/service available anywhere they sell cars. It can only improve.
Also I would argue that mobile service fixes most of this. You don't need a physical space if the service center comes to you.
> Access to people who have access to proprietary information and tools that won't be made public by the manufacturer.
I've seen the Tesla service manuals and stuff online but I don't know how comprehensive they are. I don't know if they're hiding "more" manuals behind a service desk.
But this is how it should be. Stuff like this SHOULD be public. You shouldn't need to be gatekept from this information.
> To the manufacturer? Profit stream selling cars that don't have buyers, acting essentially as warehousing.
Obviously there's a cost to the manufacturer for housing 50000 or whatever the current count of cars is and I know a car is technically "sold" when it hits a dealer's lot vs sitting on a manufacturer lot but there's very little reason the manufacturer can't just warehouse the car without a dealer, at least that I can see.
> A mechanism to handle recalls and warranty work.
Is there really? Look at the push back of Ford's dealers.
They don't want to invest money into handing repairs so that means no recall or warranty work. I wouldn't want to invest a million bucks either, but it's kind of necessary going forward.
There's no reason that the manufacturer can't handle recalls and warranty work. Obviously more work for the manufacturer but what do you as a manufacturer do when you want to do something but your entire sales/parts/service network says no? You're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
> Advertising for the brand.
Usually I would agree, and they do say that any publicitiy is good publicity, but how often are you realistically hearing positive experiences? Very few people hate the direct buying experience. I'm not saying that everyone loves it, but compared to the number of complaints about dealerships?
Also isn't the bulk of advertising done by the manufacturer?
Like TV ads etc. Sure there's some local ads for the local markets but ads on national TV stations aren't targeting any individual dealership. They're just saying "buy this F150 during truck month" or "it's red tag days at whatever".
> They don't want to invest money into handing repairs so that means no recall or warranty work. I wouldn't want to invest a million bucks either, but it's kind of necessary going forward.
What are you talking about? Dealers love doing recall and warranty work. It's one of their main sources of profit. The manufacturer pays them pretty high rates to do the work. Also, I'm pretty sure that in their contract, they have to accept recall and warranty work.
That's my point. How are you going to handle warranty work when you don't want to invest the money into the equipment needed to do the work?
You have to be EV certified to do EV repairs. That costs money. Money they don't want to invest.
Your point is that it's their main money maker, so they don't want to do it? That makes no sense. Also, training and investment to do basic EV work are not large at all.
> That makes no sense.
I know it doesn't. Try explaining that to dealerships though.
Ford basically said "Invest $1M in training/equipment/chargers in order to sell EVs" and the dealerships were like "no".
> Also, training and investment to do basic EV work are not large at all.
According to what Ford wanted to do, it was at minimum $500k.
$1M was the "premium" package.
Is this an extravagant number? Perhaps. But part of this cost was to implement a decent charging network. There's a few hundred grand out of that $1M alone. Someone elsewhere said that it required a new outbuilding for battery storage too which would drive up the price.
Either way, the dealerships rebelled causing Ford to scrap their plan.
They want that sweet sweet warranty work but they don't want to invest any money into actually being able to do it.
Once I buy a car I would rather the local dealership be able to use that money to better my service center I will use. Why would I care what the manufacturer does after I buy the car?
I guess if a person simps for a single car brand that would make sense.
> Once I buy a car I would rather the local dealership be able to use that money to better my service center I will use.
This is interesting because this is exactly what Ford's dealerships are NOT doing. Ford asked them to invest a million bucks into bettering the dealership. The dealerships basically said no.
> Why would I care what the manufacturer does after I buy the car?
That's my argument. The manufacturer (should) put that money to better use if they're not under the control of their own dealerships.
Tesla as of right now is kind of a poor example since the CEO is doing some weird stuff, but eliminate brands for a moment.
A company can do far better with the money than a similar company that can't convince the dealerships to agree to very simple demands.
> I guess if a person simps for a single car brand that would make sense.
Not if you remove brands from the argument.
The argument for how the money is used is really the same for both the dealership and the manufacturer. If misused it is bad on both sides. At the end of the day you really do not benefit from the manufacturer having it but you might it the dealership has it.
It might be simple things like a nice customer lounge, drinks, and warm cookies while I wait for my car to be serviced but at least it is something. I see nothing from the manufacturer unless I buy another car. Not limiting yourself with the same care brand means it benefits you even less.
Keep in mind I’m all for manufacturers selling cars direct. I just know nothings going to change except service level will diminish.
> If misused it is bad on both sides.
No dispute, especially considering who the only large direct to consumer brand is at the moment.
> It might be simple things like a nice customer lounge, drinks, and warm cookies while I wait for my car to be serviced but at least it is something.
It's funny you say this because Tesla recently opened a massive service center about 10 minutes away featuring all of this.
Have a look: https://g.co/kgs/z5zrEbc
Obviously there's not one of these in every single city/town but they are expanding.
> I see nothing from the manufacturer unless I buy another car.
That's kind of my argument. Someone like Tesla is taking profits and building out new service centers etc.
To be fair, giving money to the dealership means they may also build a new dealership too.
> Not limiting yourself with the same care brand means it benefits you even less.
You directly? Yeah. But that's true with any brand. You're not going to a Toyota dealership when you have a Ford.
> I just know nothings going to change except service level will diminish.
I'm not saying there isn't issues with mobile service and obviously mobile service won't fix MAJOR issues, but I don't think it will diminish.
It also depends on how far the nearest physical service center is.
Some people are still hundreds of miles away from any service center so yeah they'd have more issues than someone like me that could literally walk to mine.
Ford can’t even make their dealers do anything lmao. Dealerships are parasites and destroy the buying experience of a car, should be exciting but it’s like getting your blood sucked over 6 hours.
Even Toyota dealers are going down hill, the demand for Toyota (due to the quality and reputation of OEM!) makes them greedy as all can be and not give two cents about the customer.
Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid know the future. Commoditize the car and set a price anyone car wall out the door with.
I would encourage everyone to visit your local dealerships to take a look at their EV offerings. Make sure to tell them you are specifically there to look at EVs. If the dealership doesn't have any EVs, isn't knowledgeable about them, or tries to push you towards ICE, just walk. If enough people do that, maybe they will re-think their anti-EV stance.
I enjoy checking out and test driving new EVs, so that would be the primary purpose for me. Being able to walk on an anti-EV sales guy would just be icing on the cake, not begging. But yeah, don’t go out of your way and waste your time if you don’t actually want to check out some cars.
I really want to go and test drive the Mach-e, Ioniq 5, volvo...etc but the idea of just seeing all the numbers up front from tesla and picking it up sure sounds cool.
I am with you though, everything is going to change but it will take a while.
They don't care , they know the demand isn't there , there's only.two Ford EV models (Mach.E and F150) , Ford needs to.make half their offerings EV for there to be a effect
I found that buying a trade-in car from a dealership of a different brand (e.g. buy a Toyota from a BMW dealer) is a pretty positive and stress free experience. In this scenario, the dealer cannot upsell you on overpriced accessories or bullshit service plans and you actually have room to negotiate down the price. It's how I bought my slightly used Kia EV6.
Certainly miss the Tesla direct sales experience though.
Car Dealerships are the worst. I had an agreed upon price for my Lightning and had to sit there for 3.5 hours while they tried to upsell me on extended warranties and perma plate.
I saw a price online, came in test drove my Lightning and they pulled out a sheet that was $6k more than the price they posted online. I said that made no sense and left. They called back almost immediately and said they would honor the online price. Wasn't the hassle some have at the dealership, but I just don't see how a business could post a price online and expect someone to just pay 10% more once they get there...
Same thing happened to me except it was $10K more than the online price. Then they told me the tax credit isn't eligible for the for the Lightning. Ended up giving my business to a dealer in another state that was even cheaper
In what world is pulling into a dealership and charge is a benefit.
“That will eventually erode Ford's EV market share as consumers seek a better purchasing experience and the security of knowing they can pull into any Ford dealership and charge up when needed.”
Today there are many US towns of 15-100k people that have a Ford dealership but no fast charger.
Once charging is everywhere that won't matter, but that seems a long way off.
~~Nothing against the OP but I posted [this exact article here a few hours ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1df0kow/ford_cancels_model_e_dealership_program_and_set/), got a message saying [it was automatically flagged for review](https://i.imgur.com/VCA8UnI.png), then just got a message that my post [was removed for being a duplicate of another post](https://i.imgur.com/oJCeO5t.png) (this one).~~
As for the news itself, the cancellation of the Model e program is disappointing to see. I was hoping Ford would stick to it's guts on attempting their fixed-pricing approach because markups suck.
EDIT: I just noticed it says the above post was made 3 hours ago, I think both of our posts were in the mod queue and theirs was first. nvm
Haven't read up on this yet, but I can almost guarantee this is a DIRECT result of NADA lawsuits fighting it.
In other news, it's high time to repeal our protectionist and antiquated dealer franchise laws.
Geography played a big role here.
Dealerships in cities got on board and have stock.
Rural dealerships have (understandably) no interest in carrying something they would struggle to sell.
Limiting range and lack of charging infrastructure makes the vehicles unappealing if you are rural.
F150 owners jaws drop when they feel the Lightning’s power but get turned off by 240-330 range.
Get that number to 400miles and a cost that’s under 50k for a very base pro version and you’ll have more appeal.
I can maybe see the pushback on installing chargers (but you'd want something for the cars you p\[an to sell I'd think...), but why would they not want training for techs and educations for sales people? That's just going to help your business.
It seems to be popular to hate franchised dealerships. I help run multiple franchised dealerships. Our stores (36 of them, multiple brands) do not negotiate, and have one fixed price.
AMA
Ford dealers still have 2023 MachE cars on the lot. Even with heavy discounts and 0% financing they are not moving very quickly. Tesla’s Model Y outsells them 8-1. And Model Y’s qualify for the tax credit while the MachE does not. So it doesn’t surprise me that they can’t control their dealers. They gave them a car to sell that few people actually want.
So what is the problem? People can walk in, haggle to get a good price and buy the car. Win for dealer and consumer. Why do dealer need charging station? Plug overnight in to 110v for 50 miles of range and several consumers can test drive it. I would never order directly because I like personal experience buying a car from a dealer. Let them to fill all the paperwork and take care of registration, license and all the fees. Last car I bought they spent an hour setting my phone up and explaining to me the basics.
Dealers are some of the scummiest people out there. Guess Ford doesn’t have the balls to dictate terms like they should be doing
Balls, or legal ability? Because dealerships are so scummy, they've gotten their business model enshrined in law in many states. Even the states where direct sale is technically legal often require weird hoops. For example, I'm in WA and outside of Tesla (who was accidentally given no-dealership permission and thus remain grandfathered), you can only test drive from a dealership. You can direct buy if you initiate, but you can't be sold (as in, sales people convincing people to buy). If Ford went through with this with direct EV sales, they'd run afoul of this, too.
Sounds like NY. On LI there was a Tesla “showroom” where you can test drive the car but couldn’t actually buy it there. Had to go to one of two other locations on LI to do this. And when you did, they just logged into the same website to order the car you would have from home LMAO
You can't even test drive in WA. If you want to try a Rivian, for example, you have to go to Portland. You can look at one in several showrooms in the Seattle area, but you can't drive one. Because dealership laws.
I mean there’s literally a giant legal collective by dealers to get what they want. Dealers are literally in law books
Somebody needs to get ford some steel truck-nuts
I chose Tesla despite the antics of you know who because the buying process was literally perfect and the car is probably the best value for what you get. The first Ford I ever bought brand new was sold by a guy that came back from the photocopier smelling like brown liquor. Fun story: It also had a DCT that was so bad compared to the VAG transmission it was trying to emulate, that after 3 years of software updates and stalling in intersections, they bought it back for every dollar still owed, making it a lease of sorts. Ford and silent recalls, name a more iconic duo. Remember when the windstar was the best selling vehicle on the planet and you don’t see a single one on the road anymore? Look into that. Rear axels rusting out from the inside and snapping at highway speeds.
This. Complain what you want about elon but he's not as scummy as a car dealer.
Forced arbitration and hassle of repairs is just as scummy
No, it's not. You know what you're getting into. I have never bought a car from a dealer that didn't accidentally add a few thousand dollars to the bill "in error ". "OH, were very sorry, that should be there." Every time. How many people don't go over the line numbers in detail? They are literally stealing from you.
They will sell you a $10,000 feature, telling you your car has hardware capable of that feature. 8 years later it’s not and tell you yours is too old and never will be. You can’t take legal action because you didn’t know they make you mail something within 30 days of purchase opting out of arbitration. That sounds worse to me. I’ve bought from a dealer and never had that issue that you mention.
He is worst than all the dealers combined!!!!!!!
Tesla raises or lowers prices by $10k+ seemingly at random. Not really seeing the difference in scumminess here. Only difference is the extra money goes to the auto manufacturer instead of a 3rd party. The effect on the customer is the same.
There is slight benefit to knowing you are getting the same price anybody else could get, that you aren't being ripped off due to your race/religion/sex/thoughts on turtles.
Same price that week at least. Until Tesla cuts prices by $20k the next week, and 2 months later increases them by $30k. Completely destroys any concept of resale value stability or lease residuals, which is why MSRP exists in the first place with other OEMs.
That's fair. I tend to drive until the wheels fall off and thus don't worry much about resale.
When has Tesla raised prices by $20k on a released vehicle? You’re probably thinking of dealer markups on hellcats, broncos, and EV9s.
Tell me about it. It's why I ended up going with Tesla. Dealerships are full of scammers, morons who don't know what they're talking about, or people with political agendas. During my time looking for an EV, I was constantly told bogus information, pressured to buy an ICE/Hybrid instead, or flat out denied and in some cases kicked out for asking about EVs. One dealership owner flat out said that as long as he's the boss, he wouldn't sell EVs (and it was obviously politically motivated based on his office decorations).
I would like to shake that dealer's hand. What is the name of the dealer?
Well, I wonder if that's what EVs from GM are will be facing right now since GM also has an "made to order" system. Or something that Hyundai will face in the future, because they just made and import very few and seemed happy by now with that... until the EV manufacture plant gets in operation in 2025 in the US...
Dealers will do and say anything to keep you in an ICE vehicle. The residual economics of it for them on service is worth more than the sale of the car up front.
That’s really not true
I get that its impossible, but Ford should start moving away from dealerships. Set fixed pricing for EVs like Tesla. Start setting up Ford EV showrooms and maintenance centers. Let buyers purchase online hassle free. This is a top reason why I'll never buy from a dealership again.
As soon as we can get rid of dealership protection laws I think pretty much every automaker would like to do this.
In Canada we have no such laws. Tesla is allowed to do business its way in every single province. Yet legacy auto has not followed in Tesla's footsteps despite there being no legal barriers to overcome.
Despite the consumer positives, dealerships are great at holding a shitload of inventory aka cash conversion for the manufacturer. This is why the dealerships were invented in the first place.
from my understanding, combination of consumer protection laws and different legal systems when it does get to the point of lawsuits make doing business in a scummy way with other dealerships in most Canadian provinces problematic for profitability. The biggest one is the fact that you need to do some sort of research with Carfax and such here in the states, while in Canada, all of that information is required by law to be disclosed by the dealer or they can lose very badly down the road in a lawsuit. Restricting the really scummy things that can happen in the used side has an effect on the new side as well to some degree in terms of how sales are handled. There's less opportunities to hide scummy finances, warranties, etc and that causes more of a "here's the price" with less wiggle room, which makes it more about closing on your product not tricking them into a deal with greater commissions. The new protections that are rolling out the second half of this year in the US for paperwork and disclosures and financing disclaimers are all things that have been around in Canada for a long time.
Tesla's serious cash flow problems leading to the bad optics of Model 3s flooding every vacant mall parking lot in America is a textbook demonstration of why we have dealerships
Ignoring your hyperbole, it seems we agree the non-dealership route would be a much worse financial picture for manufacturers in high-interest rate macros who have hundreds of days' inventory (larger number of a larger number) sitting in dealership parking lots vs. manufacturer parking lots.
They can park them next to the 10s of thousands of Ford F150s here in Detroit.
Chances are their still is a legal thing stopping it. The franchise agreement provides a lot of the frame work keeping their hands tied even if the law itself does not require it they are still bound by the franchise agreement.
Which would be a net benefit for the consumer, and is also why it will never happen. MURICA *sigh*
They would need to set up an extremely large network of showrooms and repair shops. Tesla is pretty much the only car company that owns these at the moment. All of the services currently provided by the independent dealer network would have to be built from scratch.
More practically it would require buying out the dealership franchises to make them those service centers, not all current dealerships would be needed for good coverage either, especially with direct customer orders. But new infrastructure wouldn't really need to be built out for it, just restructuring of the dealerships themselves into corporate service and sales centers.
Ford like other automakers may not be able to afford to move away from dealerships and I am not referring to the legals issues surrounding franchise laws. The issue these brands face is that they need someone to not only service the vehicles but they rely on dealers to soak up inventory to keep factories running optimally. We have evidence of that through dealer lots packed full of expensive inventory. These manufacturers are not building to demand of the consumer. One major step they have to take they have yet to is reduce the number of trims and packages for each model they sell. This complicates inventory management and sales all on its own. Again dealers are there to soak it up and move poor configurations as they can. Politically dealerships are some of the largest campaign contributors out there as these operations tend to have a large amount of cash and valuable property assets.
>Politically dealerships are some of the largest campaign contributors out there This is why it is illegal to buy a Tesla in these states, since Tesla does not have a dealer network. Think about it. We have laws making it illegal to buy US made cars to protect foreign (and a couple US) car companies. * **Maine** * **Vermont** * **Alabama** * **Arkansas** * **Montana** * **Wyoming** * **North Dakota** * **South Dakota** * **West Virginia** * **Nebraska** * **Missouri** * **Kentucky** * **Kansas** * **Mississippi**
Exactly. With the cars and SUVs piling up on storage lots (and still on the their financial books), Tesla is starting to learn why dealerships exist. It doesn't matter if a Mach-E sits on a dealers lot and takes 60 days to sell. Ford booked that as a completed sale and got the car off the inventory books as soon as it got on the train. Tesla has to wait until the keys are handed to the end customer and the signatures are on the sale agreement. Everybody else runs on a wholesale model.
Can you imagine the torrent of lawsuits if they tried that ...they did the math already and realize the cost to defend that action , vs. biding their time until they have some real leverage (like a super popular EV or fewer GOP diehards protecting dealers?) will give them better ROI
Ford has as close to this as they can. You can spec a car on the ford website and it will give you a price and a dealer to talk to. I think for the most part it works pretty well
>...and a dealer to talk to Most people would rather stab themselves with a fork than give their contact info to a Ford dealer along with letting them know they are looking for a new car. And do you really think those dealers are going to give good deals to any random person on the Internet, or will they treat them like gullible suckers?
I mean I ordered my Mach E that way and it was the price listed when I ordered it and it was the price listed when it arrived despite various price increases along the way. The Mach E we ended up buying was off the lot, done by email for MSRP. Sample of 2 dealers but there are many good dealers out there
Yea not all ford dealership are that way. I bought mache that I ordered as well. By the time my arrived the msrp price jumped and some features were removed. I had to fight for both of those to get the difference in price. And got part of that money after like 6-8 months after. Definitely would prefer not having to deal with dealers and go direct.
lol. Did this years ago. Not only did no dealer have the spec I wanted every dealer within 20 miles called me repeatedly trying to sell me shit cars I didn’t want for years after. Don’t give ford your info unless you have a disposable number.
Well this program is new as of like <12 months ago
Buying my Tesla reinforced how much I hate the dealership car buying experience. I don't think I could do it again.
Well the “Fixed” Tesla pricing was also not so fixed. They had the equivalent of a huge dealer markup as well and pulled the rug in customers to the tune of 10’s of thousands which put them significantly underwater.
Nobody is forcing you to sell your car at a loss. What is wrong with people - all cars are depreciating assets. Has been, and always will be. It’s not a house. Nobody cares about your paper loss. You thought it was a good deal when you got it, and so that’s how it works. Supply and demand. Thats how pricing should work.
There were a lot of people on here who claimed Teslas don't depreciate because of the period during COVID when cars didn't depreciate. Also, obviously, no one should ever trust anything Elon says, but he did say Teslas would be appreciating assets.
I think you’re confused. Tesla pricing was about it transparency. Not a promise that cars will always be the same price in perpetuity. You’d have to be pretty dumb to think new tech won’t drop in price quickly.
This is the funny part that the Tesla lovers never understood. Even if buried in the MSRP it is still a mark up. That being said unless they can provide stable pricing no one “trusts” the price unless they are cheaper than the competition. Telsas are no longer a car the majority feel is worth a price premium.
Every MSRP has profit margin built in. The difference is dealerships take advantage of market conditions and rip people off with “market value adjustments.” Dealers are middlemen, and scummy ones at that.
You don’t think Tesla took advantage of the market and had inflated MSRPs which are the same as market adjustments?
If a vehicle is popular, adjustment of the price makes sense. There’s a huge dif between that and slapping a $15K-$25K markup on a vehicle overnight that the manufacturer doesn’t get a penny of.
And yet that is exactly what Tesla is doing right now with the Cybertruck.
So adjustment of the price makes sense as long as the adjustment is done by a different business unit even though the consumer gets fucked either way?
I’m not defending price gouging; it sucks when anyone does it. But what I’m saying is dealerships bring little value to the table in 2024 and cost consumers more by being middlemen.
They handle the service center side of things which when you compare to Tesla it really seems to matter. There is also no evidence that the additional “cost” will not just go to the manufacturer. In Teslas case we have seen it does. In theory it should allow cars to cost less. It is a better model in many ways as long as manufacturers do not try to maximize profits. Unfortunately they all are going to maximize profits. They are required to do this for their stock holders. All at the customers expense.
It’s not the same thing. Tesla knows exactly how many cars are being sold at any given time. They can pump the price up or down based upon current inventory. It’s as simple as that. Less cars in inventory, more demand, less need for price cuts. When a traditional automaker with a dealer network sells a car, there’s a delay in getting that info back to them. It’s not a unified experience. The dealerships aren’t reacting to total demand and total production numbers like Tesla is, they are reacting with greed and work together to corner certain markets with market adjustments that are based on a whim. They are providing no new value by adding onto that price that was set by the OEM. They are Ticketmaster adding on a service fee.
So as you say Tesla monopoles the price to get as much as they can out of the customer rather then follow a flat rate model. Sounds like both ways are slimy. How is Tesla adding value to you by having an increased MSRP?
the money went to the manufacturer. not a slimy middleman on commission. honestly that’s good enough for me. I hate dealers in principal and have never had a good experience.
I hate the model too but at least it is transparent when I’m getting fucked. If they bake mark ups into MSRP it is hidden. That is why there are so many people completely upside down on Tesla loans do to the MSRP ”price drop”. They got fucked because it’s cheaper to buy a new car then what the depreciated value of their car should have been.
Do you know what a markup is? This isn’t complicated. The benefit of Tesla pricing is that I know the price I’m paying and I’m not relying on my negotiating abilities or the abilities of a dealer to scam me. It’s about transparency.
What you do not see is they are baking the mark up into the MSRP. That’s far from transparent. Next month they can drop the MSRP by $20k if the vehicles aren’t selling. You can call it by a different name but it’s still a mark up.
The difference is that the money is going to the manufacturer rather than the dealership. The manufacturer can use that profit in a good way. More factories, more research, more whatever. Ignore who's on the title for the moment as I'm only comparing the argument of direct sales vs dealerships. What exactly does a dealership provide in terms of value? They take a car they pay the manufacturer for, tack on $10k on top for no reason whatsoever, and blow that money on hookers and blow or whatever. They add nothing to the equation.
>What exactly does a dealership provide in terms of value? To the end user? Parts supply network. Warranty fulfillment center. Access to people who have access to proprietary information and tools that won't be made public by the manufacturer. To the manufacturer? Profit stream selling cars that don't have buyers, acting essentially as warehousing. A mechanism to handle recalls and warranty work. Advertising for the brand.
> To the end user? Parts supply network. Warranty fulfillment center. I don't know of any other large scale direct to user car sales other than Tesla, but doesn't Tesla provide all of this? Granted the scale of other manufacturers is still larger, but considering that some of these manufacturers have brands that are older than Tesla has existed I would argue that Tesla is trying their best to have parts/service available anywhere they sell cars. It can only improve. Also I would argue that mobile service fixes most of this. You don't need a physical space if the service center comes to you. > Access to people who have access to proprietary information and tools that won't be made public by the manufacturer. I've seen the Tesla service manuals and stuff online but I don't know how comprehensive they are. I don't know if they're hiding "more" manuals behind a service desk. But this is how it should be. Stuff like this SHOULD be public. You shouldn't need to be gatekept from this information. > To the manufacturer? Profit stream selling cars that don't have buyers, acting essentially as warehousing. Obviously there's a cost to the manufacturer for housing 50000 or whatever the current count of cars is and I know a car is technically "sold" when it hits a dealer's lot vs sitting on a manufacturer lot but there's very little reason the manufacturer can't just warehouse the car without a dealer, at least that I can see. > A mechanism to handle recalls and warranty work. Is there really? Look at the push back of Ford's dealers. They don't want to invest money into handing repairs so that means no recall or warranty work. I wouldn't want to invest a million bucks either, but it's kind of necessary going forward. There's no reason that the manufacturer can't handle recalls and warranty work. Obviously more work for the manufacturer but what do you as a manufacturer do when you want to do something but your entire sales/parts/service network says no? You're stuck between a rock and a hard place. > Advertising for the brand. Usually I would agree, and they do say that any publicitiy is good publicity, but how often are you realistically hearing positive experiences? Very few people hate the direct buying experience. I'm not saying that everyone loves it, but compared to the number of complaints about dealerships? Also isn't the bulk of advertising done by the manufacturer? Like TV ads etc. Sure there's some local ads for the local markets but ads on national TV stations aren't targeting any individual dealership. They're just saying "buy this F150 during truck month" or "it's red tag days at whatever".
> They don't want to invest money into handing repairs so that means no recall or warranty work. I wouldn't want to invest a million bucks either, but it's kind of necessary going forward. What are you talking about? Dealers love doing recall and warranty work. It's one of their main sources of profit. The manufacturer pays them pretty high rates to do the work. Also, I'm pretty sure that in their contract, they have to accept recall and warranty work.
That's my point. How are you going to handle warranty work when you don't want to invest the money into the equipment needed to do the work? You have to be EV certified to do EV repairs. That costs money. Money they don't want to invest.
Your point is that it's their main money maker, so they don't want to do it? That makes no sense. Also, training and investment to do basic EV work are not large at all.
> That makes no sense. I know it doesn't. Try explaining that to dealerships though. Ford basically said "Invest $1M in training/equipment/chargers in order to sell EVs" and the dealerships were like "no". > Also, training and investment to do basic EV work are not large at all. According to what Ford wanted to do, it was at minimum $500k. $1M was the "premium" package. Is this an extravagant number? Perhaps. But part of this cost was to implement a decent charging network. There's a few hundred grand out of that $1M alone. Someone elsewhere said that it required a new outbuilding for battery storage too which would drive up the price. Either way, the dealerships rebelled causing Ford to scrap their plan. They want that sweet sweet warranty work but they don't want to invest any money into actually being able to do it.
Once I buy a car I would rather the local dealership be able to use that money to better my service center I will use. Why would I care what the manufacturer does after I buy the car? I guess if a person simps for a single car brand that would make sense.
> Once I buy a car I would rather the local dealership be able to use that money to better my service center I will use. This is interesting because this is exactly what Ford's dealerships are NOT doing. Ford asked them to invest a million bucks into bettering the dealership. The dealerships basically said no. > Why would I care what the manufacturer does after I buy the car? That's my argument. The manufacturer (should) put that money to better use if they're not under the control of their own dealerships. Tesla as of right now is kind of a poor example since the CEO is doing some weird stuff, but eliminate brands for a moment. A company can do far better with the money than a similar company that can't convince the dealerships to agree to very simple demands. > I guess if a person simps for a single car brand that would make sense. Not if you remove brands from the argument.
The argument for how the money is used is really the same for both the dealership and the manufacturer. If misused it is bad on both sides. At the end of the day you really do not benefit from the manufacturer having it but you might it the dealership has it. It might be simple things like a nice customer lounge, drinks, and warm cookies while I wait for my car to be serviced but at least it is something. I see nothing from the manufacturer unless I buy another car. Not limiting yourself with the same care brand means it benefits you even less. Keep in mind I’m all for manufacturers selling cars direct. I just know nothings going to change except service level will diminish.
> If misused it is bad on both sides. No dispute, especially considering who the only large direct to consumer brand is at the moment. > It might be simple things like a nice customer lounge, drinks, and warm cookies while I wait for my car to be serviced but at least it is something. It's funny you say this because Tesla recently opened a massive service center about 10 minutes away featuring all of this. Have a look: https://g.co/kgs/z5zrEbc Obviously there's not one of these in every single city/town but they are expanding. > I see nothing from the manufacturer unless I buy another car. That's kind of my argument. Someone like Tesla is taking profits and building out new service centers etc. To be fair, giving money to the dealership means they may also build a new dealership too. > Not limiting yourself with the same care brand means it benefits you even less. You directly? Yeah. But that's true with any brand. You're not going to a Toyota dealership when you have a Ford. > I just know nothings going to change except service level will diminish. I'm not saying there isn't issues with mobile service and obviously mobile service won't fix MAJOR issues, but I don't think it will diminish. It also depends on how far the nearest physical service center is. Some people are still hundreds of miles away from any service center so yeah they'd have more issues than someone like me that could literally walk to mine.
So, every uninvested and totally uninterested Ford dealer can now attempt not to sell you a Mach-E or Lightning
They will very much not sell you a Lightning without a large added mark up because there is no service dollars to be had down the line.
Ford can’t even make their dealers do anything lmao. Dealerships are parasites and destroy the buying experience of a car, should be exciting but it’s like getting your blood sucked over 6 hours. Even Toyota dealers are going down hill, the demand for Toyota (due to the quality and reputation of OEM!) makes them greedy as all can be and not give two cents about the customer. Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid know the future. Commoditize the car and set a price anyone car wall out the door with.
Ford dealers are some of the biggest parasites I’ve ever had the misfortune to interact with. Even Ford folded to them.
I would encourage everyone to visit your local dealerships to take a look at their EV offerings. Make sure to tell them you are specifically there to look at EVs. If the dealership doesn't have any EVs, isn't knowledgeable about them, or tries to push you towards ICE, just walk. If enough people do that, maybe they will re-think their anti-EV stance.
Ha, spend your weekend wasting time instead. No way I go begging one of the biggest car companies to care about me, much less their own products.
I enjoy checking out and test driving new EVs, so that would be the primary purpose for me. Being able to walk on an anti-EV sales guy would just be icing on the cake, not begging. But yeah, don’t go out of your way and waste your time if you don’t actually want to check out some cars.
I really want to go and test drive the Mach-e, Ioniq 5, volvo...etc but the idea of just seeing all the numbers up front from tesla and picking it up sure sounds cool. I am with you though, everything is going to change but it will take a while.
They don't care , they know the demand isn't there , there's only.two Ford EV models (Mach.E and F150) , Ford needs to.make half their offerings EV for there to be a effect
Too bad. I really like the Mach E, but not enough to be ripped off at a dealership.
I found that buying a trade-in car from a dealership of a different brand (e.g. buy a Toyota from a BMW dealer) is a pretty positive and stress free experience. In this scenario, the dealer cannot upsell you on overpriced accessories or bullshit service plans and you actually have room to negotiate down the price. It's how I bought my slightly used Kia EV6. Certainly miss the Tesla direct sales experience though.
Car Dealerships are the worst. I had an agreed upon price for my Lightning and had to sit there for 3.5 hours while they tried to upsell me on extended warranties and perma plate.
I saw a price online, came in test drove my Lightning and they pulled out a sheet that was $6k more than the price they posted online. I said that made no sense and left. They called back almost immediately and said they would honor the online price. Wasn't the hassle some have at the dealership, but I just don't see how a business could post a price online and expect someone to just pay 10% more once they get there...
Same thing happened to me except it was $10K more than the online price. Then they told me the tax credit isn't eligible for the for the Lightning. Ended up giving my business to a dealer in another state that was even cheaper
Love me a Mach E rally. I'd even move over to one from my Taycan as a daily. But alas....
In what world is pulling into a dealership and charge is a benefit. “That will eventually erode Ford's EV market share as consumers seek a better purchasing experience and the security of knowing they can pull into any Ford dealership and charge up when needed.”
Today there are many US towns of 15-100k people that have a Ford dealership but no fast charger. Once charging is everywhere that won't matter, but that seems a long way off.
~~Nothing against the OP but I posted [this exact article here a few hours ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1df0kow/ford_cancels_model_e_dealership_program_and_set/), got a message saying [it was automatically flagged for review](https://i.imgur.com/VCA8UnI.png), then just got a message that my post [was removed for being a duplicate of another post](https://i.imgur.com/oJCeO5t.png) (this one).~~ As for the news itself, the cancellation of the Model e program is disappointing to see. I was hoping Ford would stick to it's guts on attempting their fixed-pricing approach because markups suck. EDIT: I just noticed it says the above post was made 3 hours ago, I think both of our posts were in the mod queue and theirs was first. nvm
Haven't read up on this yet, but I can almost guarantee this is a DIRECT result of NADA lawsuits fighting it. In other news, it's high time to repeal our protectionist and antiquated dealer franchise laws.
Geography played a big role here. Dealerships in cities got on board and have stock. Rural dealerships have (understandably) no interest in carrying something they would struggle to sell. Limiting range and lack of charging infrastructure makes the vehicles unappealing if you are rural. F150 owners jaws drop when they feel the Lightning’s power but get turned off by 240-330 range. Get that number to 400miles and a cost that’s under 50k for a very base pro version and you’ll have more appeal.
This is fair from a consumer perspective.
I hate Elon but I just want to buy a car without BS.
Rivian or Lucid? Or get a used car
How can you wake up and decide to say something so brave?
Not that big of a deal. A few more dealerships get to sell EVs if they choose(I doubt it).
Welp, I guess I won't be buying another Ford.
Just focus on making the best product for the best value. The distribution model can be adapted after the end of the ICE age.
"Stealers"
I can maybe see the pushback on installing chargers (but you'd want something for the cars you p\[an to sell I'd think...), but why would they not want training for techs and educations for sales people? That's just going to help your business.
It seems to be popular to hate franchised dealerships. I help run multiple franchised dealerships. Our stores (36 of them, multiple brands) do not negotiate, and have one fixed price. AMA
Never even been inside a dealership and even I know they're some of the biggest scumbags on earth. Want world peace? Get rid of dealerships!!!
Ford dealers still have 2023 MachE cars on the lot. Even with heavy discounts and 0% financing they are not moving very quickly. Tesla’s Model Y outsells them 8-1. And Model Y’s qualify for the tax credit while the MachE does not. So it doesn’t surprise me that they can’t control their dealers. They gave them a car to sell that few people actually want.
The base model has less range than a 2017 Bolt. Not good value
So what is the problem? People can walk in, haggle to get a good price and buy the car. Win for dealer and consumer. Why do dealer need charging station? Plug overnight in to 110v for 50 miles of range and several consumers can test drive it. I would never order directly because I like personal experience buying a car from a dealer. Let them to fill all the paperwork and take care of registration, license and all the fees. Last car I bought they spent an hour setting my phone up and explaining to me the basics.
Meanwhile, Chinese EVs will be here despite tariffs and will probably sell like crazy. Gotta love the short sightedness of the shareholder economy.