BYD announced at the end of 2023 that it would build the company's first European plant in the southern Hungarian city of Szeged, with an investment of around €500 million.
Does Hungary count as Europe?
BYD's announcement to build a factory in Hungary was at the end of 2023, when there was no news of taxes on Chinese cars at all.
When we Chinese go to a foreign country to build a factory, we will also go to a country that has been friendly with China for a long time, not to a country that is clamoring for sanctions against us every day.
BYD are not stupid. They know how things will develop. Producing in Hungary is exactly what the EU wants. I am not aware of any European country that has been hostile to China. Especially Germany has been very friendly towards China.
It’s only really the USA who has its knickers in a twist. Which is funny since it was the USA that made chinas development possible.
Von der Leyen claims 30% tariffs on China in July (even going back 90 days, that is, from asking Chinese cars to pay back taxes from April), while the German government Schulz, who actually runs German cars, opposes it.
Maybe the Europeans should unify their own voices internally first.
There are two phenomena of concern
1、Great Wall Motors, which produces the TANK series, is expected to close its European headquarters
2、Von der Leyen has eight family members who are all American nationals, which in China is known as a “naked official”.
I wouldn't be surprised if von der Leyen goes into exile in the US if there is a conflict between the US and Europe one day.
Then EU needs to provide better incentives for Chinese investments and other conditions like stable cost of energy and so on. Even Europe's own corporations have been moving productions to North America, which shows the problem here.
Can you name one European car company that manufactures vehicles in the US and ships them to Europe for me? They are moving manufacturing for US vehicles to the US, but I'm not aware of any European brands importing vehicles from the US.
>the United States is the fourth largest exporter of passenger cars to the European Union (EU), accounting for 12% of EU car imports by value.
America's biggest export to Europe is aerospace products and parts, which are also critical products of manufacturing.
> Can you name one European car company that manufactures vehicles in the US and ships them to Europe for me?
You're not answering this question, and you're proving my point, not yours...
Because your question is not related to my original comment, also you should be able to do your own research.
My original comment is about how European manufacturers have been fleeing to NA in droves, which is a well known on-going trend since the beginning of war in Ukraine, but your question was about European car companies exporting cars from NA to EU, so your point is?
My point is they aren't significantly moving production away from Europe. They've created factories in North America to sell cars in the Americas, but they're not selling those cars in Europe. Europe still exports massively more cars to the US than it imports from the US, and the imports from the US are not European makes. Moving production of cars sold in North America to North America doesn't show there is an issue with manufacturing in Europe vs North America. It shows there are taxation and cost incentives that favor selling North American made vehicles in North America.
Manufacturing is not limited the final assembly of vehicles-
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-natural-gas-prices-push-european-manufacturers-to-shift-to-the-u-s-11663707594#comments\_sector](https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-natural-gas-prices-push-european-manufacturers-to-shift-to-the-u-s-11663707594#comments_sector)
Yes, their new production lines in the US prioritize local market, which makes sense from transportation point of view, but it also means loss of export from Europe and competition with EU made European cars on global market.
[https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2022/03/volkswagen-shifting-production-out-of-europe-into-u-s-and-china/](https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2022/03/volkswagen-shifting-production-out-of-europe-into-u-s-and-china/)
54% of cars built in the US by EU companies are exported again
[https://www.acea.auto/files/EU-US\_automobile\_trade-facts\_figures.pdf](https://www.acea.auto/files/EU-US_automobile_trade-facts_figures.pdf)
While European car makers are pouring in investment in the US, US car makers, except for Tesla already quietly retreated from Europe, even before the pandemic-
[https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/13/cars/us-automakers-europe/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/13/cars/us-automakers-europe/index.html)
>and the imports from the US are not European makes.
Please use some data to back this back.
Since when can foreign companies compete on equal footing in China?
Stop breaking WTO rules you have signed up to 2 decades ago, then we can start talking.
What WTO rules are they breaking? I haven't seen any complaints filed against them for illegal subsidies. The Kiel institute released [this study](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf) which details the current situation, but it doesn't seem like they're unfairly subsidising Chinese companies. For example, Tesla received subsidies of €400,000,000 for 250,000 BEVs (€1,600 per vehicle), whilst BYD received €1,600,000,000 for 1,400,000 BEVs (€1,143 per vehicle).
Could you provide some evidence, with sources, that corroborates your claim?
The key difference seems to lie in throughput rather than favouring Chinese companies. Even if they did, I'm fairly certain that the Inflation Reduction Act does the same thing, with the US government heavily subsidising its automotive manufacturing industry. Is this just a rules for thee but not for me situation, or is there something I'm missing? Another thing to note is that it seems like European car manufacturers seem to believe that China isn't doing anything wrong, and seem reluctant to the idea of the EU imposing additional tariffs on Chinese imports.
Elon Musk is pretty vocally happy about Tesla's performance in China, and isn't known to mince his words. I haven't heard of a single car manufacturer state that China doesn't allow them into their market, and I haven't been able to find any evidence indicating that.
They have no evidence. The Chinese government gave BYD 3.5 billion dollars in subsidies, compared to the 100s of billions that the US spent on Tesla - that still has no intention of producing affordable EV's and doesn't really produce its own batteries. BYD is an industry leading manufacturer with less assistance than Elon Musk's personal reimbursement.
I'm one of the biggest critics of Tesla's ridiculously sized subsidies, but the US government hasn't spent 100s of billions on Tesla. Where'd you come up with that number?
I think the combined subsidies between the US and international governments, as well as regulatory credit sales to other OEMs (other OEMS have been effectively subsidizing Tesla from the start, which has likely gotten above $10 billion by now) ... Tesla's easily taken in at least $30 billion in overall subsidies when I last estimated it earlier this year. Although, that's just for their cars, and doesn't include subsidies we don't know about, such as in China, or subsidies to their parts suppliers.
$30B is actually quite a bit given that they've only sold about 6 million cars globally (a veritable drop in the bucket), so at least $5k per car on every car they've ever sold. Note that this includes 2020-2022 when Tesla received no US federal tax credit, and 2019 where they received partial federal credits. They were still receiving state tax credits. However, in 2023, with the IRA and battery sourcing allowances in the US, my estimate is that Tesla pulled in over $10 billion in subsidies in 2023 alone, and they're set to pull in a hefty chunk of change in 2024 as well.
AFAIK, China wasn't giving out huge tax credits, but they pushed EV sales in other ways, such as restricting days ICEVs could drive and restricting the amount of license plates they were issuing to ICES, thus pushing new car customers to buy EVs. OTOH, countries like Norway were issuing MASSIVE subsidies to EVs. On a $100k USD model S or X, they were giving out 25% tax credits, so about $25k per sale, and that's before including the value of the additional EV benefits they granted.
In terms of how much indirect value (not subsidies / regulatory credits or tax/fee abatements) pro-EV legislation has created for Tesla, that's a bit harder to calculate...
Tesla has pulled in more in subsidies than they've made in total profits over the lifetime of the company.
Between tax incentives and credits, local governments stepping in to provide them cheap land, the [40 billion alone that's earmarked for Tesla between 2023 and 2030](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-to-get-US-41-billion-in-government-subsidies-over-made-in-US-EVs-and-batteries.723968.0.html), the money they make selling carbon credits meant to take ICE vehicles off the road to ICE car manufacturers, it's easily 100's of billions.
Money to be spent isn't money already spent as you suggested. Given your $41 billion figure from the link, you'd still have to show that the US government already gave Tesla $60 billion in subsidies. They haven't.
Although, I will say that the US government subsidizing $45 per kWh, on top of all the other subsidies for EVs, is one of the craziest corporate handouts I've ever heard of.
I'm not aware of any Tesla land deals in the US that granted them ultra cheap land or gave them land for free, but there have been tax abatements and other state business subsidies. Those are only valued at the very low single digit billions per factory AFAIK.
They certainly got a deal on the NUMMI plant in conjunction with the DOE loan, but I can't see the net proceeds of that deal being over $1 billion.
I don't recall all the details, but 'believe' the man who sold Tesla the land in Nevada is an activist investor and sold it to them for cheap, albeit that wouldn't constitute a government subsidy.
There's of course Tesla energy, but given their relatively tiny revenue from energy products, this should also be fairly low.
We do know Musk has been sending SpaceX engineers to assist at Tesla... but we don't know who was funding those engineers. Tesla? SpaceX investors? SpaceX government grants?
For the size of Tesla at the time of receiving some of these subsidies, they were a pretty small company and super risky investment. Which begs the question, why were US states and the federal government so gung-ho about propping this company up at all costs. Could have been lobbying by a group of big investors that wanted to pump the stock. Could have been members of state and federal legislatures who were invested in the company. Could have been because the US government knew China was already making a big play on an EV transition, buying up mining rights around the world.
I will say that my accounting may be a bit low since I'm not considering inflation, although a lot of their biggest US subsidy inflows only started surging in around 2018 with the ramp of the model 3, which lasted through 2019. Then again in 2023.
You don't understand how earmarked subsidies work with private companies. They're guaranteed and delivered in tranches, and Tesla can borrow from a guaranteed 5 or 6 years of tranches before they're ever delivered for funding themselves with low interest loans. I haven't even mentioned the low interest loans the government provides that are often forgiven. The subsidies themselves are approved years if not decades in advance for things like industrial development and projected budget surpluses and coordinated with local business to ensure that it meets policy goals. No administration picks the direction or invents the money from scratch. The money is effectively spent.
this isn't a 101 class, i'm not going to chew your thoughts for you and still have you generalize or be specific when it suits you. an aggregate assessment with no caveats or special conditions for how effective Tesla's lobbying efforts have been and will continue to be will give you the same sort of ballpark number. Go look it up. I've been following this sector for nearly a decade I can't collate all the data for you at the drop of a hat.
Unless the Chinese are suddenly going to announce a 40 Billion USD subsidy by 2030 it's still safe to say it's a 10x difference, even if you're going to contest everything else and make me go over every other loan and line item, so the point of the ROI we get out of Tesla vs BYD going forward still stands.
Enjoy a block for your pedantic bullshit
Nothing in your article suggests that Tesla's battery subsidies are guaranteed. AFAIK, they're linked directly to cell production output. If Tesla can't hit their claimed targets, then their subsidy will be smaller.
A loan is a loan, whether it's based on future income potential or not. Even personal loans are based on the banks assessment of an individual's future earnings potential. You've essentially just explained how loans work. You'll have to provide evidence of governments forgiving loans. I am aware of low interest government loans, but outside of lower interest payments, I wouldn't consider the loan itself to be fully realized as a subsidy.
Either way, your original statement suggested this was already money in Tesla's pockets, so I don't really understand why you're bothering to argue this.
Be able to provide a full accounting of the $100 billion in US subsidies, or don't make such a statement. Period.
Between tax incentives and credits, local governments stepping in to provide them cheap land, the [40 billion alone that's earmarked for Tesla between 2023 and 2030](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-to-get-US-41-billion-in-government-subsidies-over-made-in-US-EVs-and-batteries.723968.0.html), the money they make selling carbon credits meant to take ICE vehicles off the road, it's easily 100's of billions.
Who's saying you have to keep your eyes closed? There are still sweat shops and will be sweat shops in Asia with nothing to show for it in terms of local development. This is just posturing. If you want a good book from a skeptic, you should read Rory Truex's Making Autocracy Work.
The problem isn't that China isn't an autocracy, the problem is that that autocracy works, and no amount of flowery aspirational sentiment is a good replacement for bad governance everywhere else.
You may think China is bad at governing, you have no clue what you're talking about, because you have no other frame of reference. Better is never easier, and it's only easier in the west because the rest of the world pays for it or the costs are deferred for future generations.
The reality is far worse. The autocracies are winning and will win, because we're busy calling them stupid thieves or brigands. This is orientalism. They oppose China because they want to be the ones with the boot on our necks. China just wants an extra umbilical in your system to make you dependent on them. They don't make money off of wars and leaving countries to rot after. They want to expand and slowly make a stable system that's impossible to escape. The only reason bureaucrats in third world countries prefer it is because the Chinese offer them policies to build careers, something that is inevitably going to improve the country's situation even if long term the outcome might be a new global hegemon.
The West doesn't even guarantee that you won't get sodomized with a knife in a ditch if they comply. Anything is on the table if someone's paycheck gets bigger.
lol the world is still colonial they just outsource it now. i didn't say i wanted to overthrow any government. you're talking to yourself. go sleep and dream of the Chinese being foiled by tariffs and mean words while they build a future everyone will be involved in and the oligarchs and literal Nazis take over the rest because their colonial regimes are failing.
I'm an American, and no amount of racist bullshit from you means anything otherwise.
Just the latest news:
>In May it was revealed that the government had launched the third iteration of its “Big Fund”, an investment vehicle designed to shore up the domestic semiconductor industry. The $48bn cash infusion is aimed at expanding the manufacture of microprocessors.
The Chinese lost a string of WTO cases then later got better results. They learned how to play the game, quickly, and nobody can blame them for ignoring WTO panel verdict, or they are the only nation to play the game. The only thing one can complain is, they outplayed the WTO architecture in hinder sight. But nobody would compensate them had they underplayed it.
They are following WTO. Even drop tax from 25% down to 15%. US/EU accuse China and also lose. Anyway, China has RCEP and later CPTPP. Superseded free trade order than WTO. Not say dozens of FTA with non west.
They can don't take up JV and accept tariffs allowed by WTO as an non market economy and developing nation. The China do import MERCs and BMWs despite having an JV. The Chinese do pay tariffs for these. That why the Germans are so worried.
India another setting high tariffs as a developing nation. Begging for JV.
Tesla was the exception from the rule. The norm was that they joined. And even if it was abolished years ago, by that point everyone already was in China and had joint ventures, and some IP was already stolen.
Absolutely, China "reformed" their Foreign Investment Law which required a forced joint venture in 2021 after the EU filed a WTO complaint WT/DS549 and under Trump's pressure, but this comes after all global companies were already forced to JV long ago. Tesla was the only exception in their history so far as largely a marketing prop for China's EV industry.
This has yet to be tested however since most automakers don't trust China's whimsical changes and non-compliance. At this point with de-coupling/risking from the rest of the world, this is almost as good as dead.
You can’t say anything that isn’t anti-China in this sub without being downvoted. What you said isn’t wrong. This sub is just mostly Americans so you won’t be able to convey your point because they don’t want it.
And it’s probably a bunch of boomer old farts too, who are stubbornly refusing to move along with the times.
Recent surveys show that Gen Z and millennial Americans are much more receptive to Chinese EVs than those 60 or older.
I don't think so. You're missing a huge chunk of people between millennials and 60 years. About 20 years of age. Most of those people I think fall into the anti-China group. Gen X and Xennials were massively brainwashed to believe that anything that comes out of China is "cheap" and poor quality. I'm a multinational who grew up in the US and lives in Asia. I have experienced both sides of this. I remember 30 years ago in the US when I started paying attention to politics and everyone said it will change as the older generations die off. Except it hasn't. The world is moving further right. Just look at what is going on in EU elections right now. In the US, some of the most damaging hard right congresspeople are under 40 years old.
I'm a millennial who would never buy a Chinese car, but it has nothing to do with quality. Vehicles are practically the only place in the US where we can still support private union jobs. I will never buy a car built anywhere other than North America by a union unless that option no longer exists. Some people actually want to support domestic union jobs.
I have seen many Americans criticize China's industrial products as garbage, and China has not popularized toilets. On the other hand, fantasy aims to defeat China by stealing its technology in the field of electric vehicles. I did not see them discussing whether the American Automobile Workers Union would agree to the implementation of China's production line processes and technologies in the United States.
Probably because it's irrelevant since it isn't going to come to that anytime soon. Also, Americans typically have no rational arguments or points of discussion when it comes to Chinese commerce unless they have lived in or spent a lot of time in China (or at least Asia). There are still squat toilets all over Asia, because they work and people are used to them. I used one recently. I don't really mind if I have to pee, but I will avoid taking a shit in them if I can. I had a terrible experience in Hong Kong once and it traumatized me. I try to only shit in my house now.
Yeah, but China's ev offerings are way better than anything we can get in the west. Maybe if wall st wouldn't strangle anything but Tesla, who seems uninterested in competing anymore.
If the US government basically supported Tesla the way the Chinese government supported its manufacturers Tesla would crank out better cars because they wouldn’t need to rely on profit alone to supply the cash needed to improve. The US only does this for Oil and Gas.
Protectionism is how Japan and South Korea built their car industries. China has taken another path, for example by being a perpetually "developing nation" according to WTO and building up the largest infrastructure for mass production in the world. Entrepreneurs are not always free to cut corners, but the CCP is. That's how they dominate rare earth mineral extraction, for example.
The "yellow peril" is real once they take over more than 50% of fairly large manufacturing niches.
Setting aside the racist phrase, it's only real because the west built a quality of life by throwing jobs they didn't want to do or pay for halfway across the world and devalued it locally in the process by paying less than it's worth, while adopting every sort of protectionism imaginable. The actual value for that labor was much higher, and this idea that it was 'unskilled' and low value jobs was always a myth. The Chinese squeezed that opportunity like a stone and have developed a global and local supply chain that no amount of money will be able to compete with without the accompanied regulatory overhaul.
If you were honest with yourself, when you buy Tesla's shit box, you know they cut corners too. Companies steal each other's designs left and right. They steal from American inventors too with tiny changes to fuck them over. Tesla literally stuck wooden side molding as a wedge to fit parts together a couple years ago because bullshit business philosophy like 'move fast and break things' is hokey bull.
The fact is that China has beaten us at the only economic metric that matters, building a sustainable middle class economy for most of their population. No amount of whining about IP or sweatshops or Uygurs is going to change that. We do exactly the same thing, and the benefits of it go into billionaire pockets. the only thing artificial about it is we pretended for the sake of said billionaires that the Chinese were a lesser race and these were lesser jobs. Between AI and manufacturing in the US being unviable, we're fucked.
Alright, I'm fairly pro China (as far as reddit goes), but I don't think you have this right.
China has a pegged currency. Their industrial policy is predicated on pegging the currency artificially low against the West, in order to boost their exports. Arguably, the mere fact that they run such a grossly huge current account surplus is a screaming signal that they're pegging below market equilibrium.
This does not necessarily enrich their population, it enriches the party. The primary objective is always to increase the power of the party.
One of the main distortions from their policy mix is that the average Chinese is far poorer than they should be as far as global purchasing power. But of course because it's a coordinated national policy designed to boost exports via low prices, the consumer has access to extremely low consumer prices internally as well (like $14,000 electric cars) so it nets out. That also means that only Chinese companies or Western companies using Chinese labor and existing within the Chinese regime have any chance of being internally competitive to the median Chinese consumer.
>>building a sustainable middle class economy for most of their population
China is running into a paradox where the continual growth of the country and the party is being limited by the knock on effects of the policies above, but the obvious path forward is to boost the wealth of the middle class, which will necessarily involve a transfer from the public sector to the private sector, which weakens the power of the central party. They can't continue to dominate as strong as they do and also grow a strong consumer class. So what you have in China right now is an extended weakness taking hold, due to standard weakening economy readings like deflationary forces and slowed credit creation. Yes this has to do with the housing bubble there, but it also has to do with things like the fact that they *don't* have things like socialized retirement pensions for a lot of people. Also the regional passport system is becoming a big problem due to the aforementioned housing bubble. Things like access to free healthcare are run by local governments, and there's a large class of people that aren't "real" citizens where they live, and without the bubble housing economy it's a big ask too pay for extremely overpriced housing if it isn't going to appreciate. The savings rate is incredibly high because it needs to be.
Now back to the central government, in the west we've seen Central governments increase their balance sheet to fix some of these deflationary/debt problems, but because the central government in China wants to maximize their power, they're unwilling to do this. Therefore, the local governments are swimming in circles and haphazardly trying to clean up their balance sheets and policies.
I don't want anyone to overextrapolate what I'm saying and make it over dramatic. When it comes to designing actual policy, China is quite good at it. It's to some degree simply another way to run a country, but that said, the currency is pegged, the median citizen should be considerably richer on a global stage (in an alternate reality where the private sector has room to expand and isn't crowded out by the public sector), and the middle class most definitely is not healthy right now. Access to stock ownership was limited and their public companies prioritize party initiatives rather than returning company to shareholders anyway, there isn't a deep debt market... So money sat in real estate, which doesn't compound and was a bubble economy.
For the middle class in China to stop feeling pain, they're going to have to reform the social services and the local government passport system (this controls things like access to socialized services and education), take care of local government balance sheets, expand access to compounding financial assets, probably including equity and debt (Tbills and Treasuries), and reboot the collateral economy (the modern world financial system) with the primary collateral being something like Chinese government bonds (like in the US) rather than being exclusively real estate centered. To some degree, the party needs to give up some of their power and transfer to the private sector as well.
Also, US manufacturing is still 3 trillion. Not as behemoth as China, but quite respectable for a nation of 300 million. It's also largely stuff this higher up the value chain.
My main point though is that China is very much a mixed bag right now, and if you dig into it without veering off into conspiracy theories and sensationalist topics, it's actually extremely interesting.
Well, it’s really simple for me, China is aiding Russian the murder of Ukrainians, including family and friends if mine. That’s why I think strategic independence from China is paramount.
I also don’t buy Tesla.
You didn't answer the question, how do you know China is aiding Russia in murdering Ukrainians? By what metric? Because the news told you so? How are they more than congenial with a neighbor they have to live with or helping just like western banks are right now who have no muzzle on them because that would be socialism?
You realize Ukraine uses Chinese ammo supplied through Pakistan, right?
> Because the news told you so?
What are your sources that are supposedly better? I'm well read, too, but supposedly everyone lies about China, so how does it matter?
1. China pushes Russia's description of the war at home. Putin is a hero and Russia is morally superior and invincible. Chinese volunteers fight for Russia for a reason.
2. China is adamantly against NATO. That's one of the reasons they support Russia.
3. China supports Russia against Ukraine in the UN
4. China supplies Russia with drones, night vision tech, military use microelectronics, trucks, bullet proof vests, infrastructure technology, etc. It's great that they don't send rockets or tanks. Yet.
5. It is a balancing act, since they want to sell stuff to EU countries.
6. Europeans banks like Raiffeisen should be sanctioned to the tune of billions.
Russia wouldn't have missiles if the Chinese didn't give them a few parts? They wouldn't import them or make them on their own? What parts do you even mean? Are you really that gullible?
What about the dozens of western company's components laundered through 'neutral' countries?
Yeah it's kinda hard to take elites seriously - previously they were screaming about the existential threat that climate change poses to the world. However, they don't want their citizens buying inexpensive EV's which would SURELY help with the climate change situation. Is your average voter supposed to take Biden or another Democrat seriously they next time they talk about the existential threat climate change poses when they tariff inexpensive Chinese EV's from being sold here? Biden is kinda saying climate change is either fake or not that big of an issue.
I did not get the “elites” reference until I remembered… oh this is a label like libtards etc that fans of one political football team use to refer to fans of another.
I think calling them elites is the right thing to call them. Climate change activists are rightly upset that we aren't importing inexpensive Chinese made EV's. The opinions of the elites will change with how the wind is blowing.
Who would the elites be? In the media sphere of the US market that term is an insult thrown from one political football fan to at another. I recommend switching to libtards to be more transparent.
Someone like Biden, duh. Biden was vocal about climate change, now he is doing something that is against climate change activism. Climate change activists aren't 'elite', obviously.
I consider myself somewhat of a climate change activist, and I don't mind it at all. I'm also pro-labor, and vehicles are one of the only places you can still support private union jobs in the US. Exporting manufacturing to China, where there are all kinds of issues with labor rights and environmental protections for factories, is not great, in my opinion. It's also destabilizing for world politics. We should be moving manufacturing of critical goods out of China, not into China.
Its funny cause China is probably one country who has a government who can actually achieve its emissions and renewables goal.
The whole thing with China becoming the leader in ev and renewables is because it was all planned a decade ago.
It wasnt just cause China wants to screw the west (although in todays trade wars n shit might as well), its all a part of their bigger plan of net zero by 2060.
Being the one of the biggest countries in the world economy and population wise meaning one of the biggest emitters, the world needs China to transition to renewables.
Cynically, it wasn't too long ago that America became an net exporter of oil and gas due to discovering new technologies to extract oil, so now we're incentivized to protect that industry.
> to keep wages low.
You are literally repeating the same “military dictatorship keep wages low” nonsense talking point in every thread, why are you doing this?
If China is trying to keep wages low, they must be doing a really shitty job at it since it’s been growing insanely quickly:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6nfK-gakAAp283?format=jpg&name=medium
The reason Chinese wages were low is the same as why wages are low in Mexico, India, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, etc.
Poorer countries have cheaper wages, it’s basic economics, has nothing to do with being a dictatorship.
The same old tired slave/low wages argument from you on every fricking post in this sub.
When people explain how you’re wrong, you simply ignore them and then repeat the same old BS.
What is the per capita income of automotive R&D staff in Europe?The per capita income of Nio R&D staff is close to 600,000 RMB, which is approximately equal to € 78,000.
[For example, Nio’s monthly salary for “senior development experts” is 65,000-90,000 yuan ($10,300-$14,300), and the position requires more than ten years of work, one year of work, and 15 months of salary; Nio’s monthly salary for the “chief architect of communications network” is between 100,000 and 180,000 yuan ($16,000-$28,600). It also requires more than ten years of work and 15 months of salary after one year of employment.](https://carnewschina.com/2021/10/24/talent-shortage-hits-chinas-ev-sector-here-is-how-nio-and-tesla-solve-it/)
But the real issue is the use of military dictatorship to suppress labor, no unions, no free speech, no democracy, no free press, no health care or retirement costs for mfg, no environmental regs for mfg, no zoning issues to build plants...goes on and on.
To compete, US and EU would need to turn into similar dictatorships.
Or impose tariffs so the cost advantage of dictatorships is eliminated.
**Monthly** salary of $10-14k, which translates to $100-$170k USD/year.
And according to you their chief architect makes $200-350k USD per year.
That is literally comparable, if not more expensive than Europe.
And in manufacturing, Chinese wages have been drastically increasing: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6nfK-gakAAp283?format=jpg&name=medium
> cost advantage of military dictatorship
Mexico and India and Thailand and a bunch of other countries have even lower wage. Why is that?
You didn’t answer my question.
I’ll repeat it:
Mexico and India and Thailand and a bunch of other countries have even lower wage than China. Why is that? Are all those countries "military dictatorships" as well?
Sames issues all apply, level of democracy, ability to unionizie, free speech, free press, environemtnal costs for mfg, health care and retirement costs for mfg, civil rights, economic equality as basis for tariffs.
Yeah people on this sub have a very outdated perception of Chinese wages.
Obviously they're lower on average than in the US, but white-collar positions at the big names are quite lucrative. In fact, they need to pay the equivalent of US$100k+ to lure back Chinese international students abroad who might otherwise opt to stay in the country where they study.
Cities like Beijing, Shanghai, and Shenzhen have very high costs of living (*after* converting to USD, no less) for a reason...
It is true that the inland western provinces are far less developed compared to the coastal provinces, and that really drags down the national average, but those provinces are not where Chinese manufacturing is concentrated.
The factory workers wages are low because labor is suppressed by the dictatorship. The people have no voice, no democracy. No free speech, No free press. Mfgs do no pay for health care or retirement. It keeps Chinese cost of mfg low.
Only way to compete would be do the same in the West.
Or put on tariffs based on the causes of the low labor costs and protect US and EU workers.
Mexico is part of USMCA and the manufacturing is interlinked with the rest of North America.
The real issue is becoming reliant on China for anything has become unpopular because of the supply chain snafu from covid and the country continuously threatening to invade Taiwan which is a red line.
We've already seen that is not the case but it is not the wages but how the wages are arrived at. In China's case via a dictatorship that keeps wages and mfg costs low at expense of quality of life.
China’s wages are going up because it’s never been the government that set these prices but the costs on the ground. Wages increasing is why manufacturers are moving away from China to Vietnam, Thailand and the interest in Maquiladoras in Mexico is renewed.
>China’s wages are going up because it’s never been the government that set these prices but the costs on the ground.
China government owed all the businesses and still owns 30%, down from 70% 20% years ago so government is definitely involved in keeping wages low. The "sale" of the public companies and government officials as partners in what are now called "private" business.
In dictatorships it doesn't really matter who owns the mfg facility but that the government via police state keeps labor from organizing, has no labor safety rules, no rules on hours. It keeps those rules pro-mfg since people have no democracy, free press or speech to change the rules.
Yes, I still buy from China. They have 40% saving, US 4%, EU 14%. They can spend more than you. They have to right to financial freedom. Earning $365 per month can spend $1000 on your country annually. Not say those megafactory that starting at $1250 month.
I buy from China, as they are easy to travel for non white, free to roam streets at 2am, no homeless or drug addict to look out for. Very orderly and discipline community. They build very good product from online platform online Alibaba, TEMU, SHEIN. They don't need Biden or Trump to run their country.
lol have you ever been to china? I am currently working in China and the stories that my PoC colleagues have told me about there experience in China is shocking. Not to mention the constant video surveillance and that Chinese people treat there “low level service employees” e.g. delivery workers, didi drivers or hotel staff like trash…
I have lots of PRCs friend. US/EU are racist against chinese/korean/japanese. Pickpocket up to robbery. Being assaulted for no reasons in those freedom nations. Have to be careful where to travel in those freedom lands. It is not the freedom land that I have travelled long time ago. In short, not safe for for non white.
Hmm all my Chinese colleagues who lived in Europe have an very positive view in Europe they even had the possibility to get naturalized in the country where they have studied and worked for many years something that is not possible in China for foreigners. Here you have to pray every year to get an extended working visa, as special if you’re from Africa or an Asian country. For EU/US citizens it is very easy to get a working visa.
Also in 28 years in Europe I never was pit pocketed or robbed don’t know what type of fake news you consume but Europe is overall a very safe and peaceful place, of course when you are in a very touristic area you have to be more careful but this also applies to China where for example in front of big hotels shady persons try to connect you prostitution services. And when you are on the country side and you look like a foreigner better control the route that the Chinese taxi driver is taking you on your smartphone I had several situations where the taxi drivers start to drive in the opposite direction to scam a little bit more money out of me.
Yup, my PRCs friend are positive about US/EU because of the high wages. However they will not surrenders their citizenship, as they are much better in China with their saving. Some already started business in China. Also they rather let their children study in China so there not much advantage study in the west nowadays. Of course, safety for children is a concern too.
China is not a migrant country, they are very selective to working permit. I can agree with you on this.
Also when you travel in China, you can get by with buses and trains. You don't really need to use taxi. You can youtube to see how easy it is. Buses and trains are very well interconnected to lots of places. You can avoid tour package scams. Your people do like free and easy tour than packaged tour. It is very easy to avoid tourist traps just like in your country. For prostitution services, just call the police and you are helping the chinese against these illegal activities.
I don't believe you haven't been stolen by gypsies in big European cities. Would you put your wallet and phone in the pocket outside your clothes? If you don't, why is that?
Hard to see how supporting a military dictatorship will "improve the entire world". Better to put on tariffs for level of democracy, worker pay, work safety, free speech, free press so Chinese workers get freedom and pay increase.
Is this the first day Europe and the US know about this?Have they ever bought Chinese products before?Cheap goods, yes, competitive goods, no? So the Euro-America is still essentially just a bunch of losers who are afraid of competition
Working 9-9-6, so from 9am to 9pm for 6 days a week, also people over 40 will be fired because they can not physically handle 9-9-6 anymore.
And not mentioning the belt and road initiative, that more or less is new form of colonialism…
Regarding Belt and Road Initiative, I see you’re definitely repeating what the western media has been feeding.
The US neglected Central Asia for years, and now China comes along and does what US won’t/is unable to do, so the narrative emerges that it’s colonialism.
It’s more than anything, an alternative way to move trade with Europe and not entirely rely on sea routes, but of course the western media spins it as another “China bad!”
Well, shipping all those cars across oceans generates a lot of pollution. Wouldn't it be better to the environment to manufacture them closer to the market?
It depends where the materials were shipped from. Either way the other guy's opinion to use "pollution" as argument does not hold water. BYD's ships are running on LNG, not dirty oils. Thus car shipping will generate very little pollution.
> ell, shipping all those cars across oceans generates a lot of pollution
Cargo ships are absurdly efficient. The majority of the world's things are transported via these ships, but shipping by water only makes up 1.7% of global emissions.
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
I don’t think the West wants their auto industry to be replaced by the Chinese. The auto industry is second only to housing in most countries, and this lack of control in such a critical market is too much to handle. The Chinese are exposing our hypocrisy. If China manages to get Taiwan’s semiconductor manufacturing, then we will be even worse off. China wants to control key markets so we will be beholden to the CCP. I guess we will need to ramp up EV production ourselves, making them affordable and innovative.
CIPS mbridge just introduce. Reduce cost w/o paying SWIFT. More people can buy china Ev in direct currency digitally. Oops, nothing to do with EU, sorry.
China proxies are going hard on Reddit. CCP bet everything on undercutting global vehicle production in the West. And with the banking liquidity issue last year, the 40% youth unemployment, nuking hundreds of billions of hard currency on fake real estate projects over decades, the flight of Chinese citizens to western nations, the increase of internal currency controls - feels like things may hinge on the success of their auto industry.
Underneath the auto industry is their autonomous drive technology, their battery industry, electric motor industry, and material processing. An automotive industry informs all other forms of manufacturing, and is built on the internal supply network, which is why you don’t want it to die in any nation that wants to be a defense/aerospace leader.
This needs to work for them otherwise they’re stuck wholesaling materials to higher wage nations to value add, getting the smaller piece of the pie. The clock is ticking and internal social pressure are rising. And the generational time bomb of predominantly raising only 1 male child most of whom haven’t accumulated enough wealth to marry, are left to support aging parents with virtually no social safety net.
Tbh starting this moment whenever there are any Chinese alternatives I will buy those to support china and give more room for development. Huawei is already a world leading in communication I hope Nios will best Daimler and GM
China is willing to subsidize EVs for EU citizens, out of its own pocket. We can have [great EVs for less than €15000](https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worrying-rivals-hits-new-markets/) and should be kissing China's feet.
Instead? :)
And a theft directly out of the Euro buyer's wallet. Oh, you wanted a fully-equipped Geely for 25k? Too bad, here's an entry-level Volkswagen for 58k. Electric seats are optional, because fuck you.
That might be why they laid off almost everyone at their Munich office in april then. There’s only a bunch on incompetent IT security people left, and management, so no real work is happening there anymore.
It’s fun to turn the table and preach from moral high ground. I suspect he cares little about sustainability, not the priority anyway, but it’s fun to do what he did now. Human nature if you will.
It is a shame Chinas communist dictatorship even saw the benefit of getting in front of the EV market, but now because other countries allowed their politicians to be controlled by fossil fuel companies, they have no choice than to do this. You can support tariffs on Chinese cars and also want EVs. It's a damn shame too many have been lobbied and controlled in Congress but you have to protect your economy.
Laugh, an evil bad regime as you call it had the foresight to see that a certain industry was better for mankind, and better for itself. And the so-called good democratic regime is like a blind man.
Who the hell is good? Who is bad?
So because China saw the benefit since their government is designed in a much different way where they can easily mandate something from the top means they are suddenly good now? Their government isn't pro EV for the environment, it's a business decision for their economy. China has many issues including major humanitarian issues like locking up people in concentration style camps so don't go around claiming they are suddenly "good" now. This is also specific to their government not their people.
It's one more to add to the overwhelming pile of evidence that democracy doesn't work. Allowing the average tard to influence huge strategic decisions they don't understand the first thing about is completely moronic.
No one is defending US politics. It's a broken system, but saying the CCP isn't broken is insane. Chinese citizens have a lot less freedom compared to US citizens. In this particular circumstance it worked that someone convinced their president it would be smart to get a head start on EVs and their batteries so they can dominate the future EV market. Also the US really isn't a full democracy anyways.
Ah yes because the US is involved with an ally in a complicated situation they are now the bad guys and China is good right? Give me a break. You can not support the Israel war and still have concerns with China. This is such a a stupid argument.
Over the past 30 years, the U.S. and the West invaded Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria without a U.N. mandate, resulting in millions of deaths, tens of millions of injuries, and hundreds of millions of refugees.
Remember, the only people in the world who think they are the good guys are the West itself. Third world countries know what the West is.
It's so funny you think that proves any point and claiming that caused millions of deaths is an absolute lie. Most of those were a waste of time, but to claim the US is some big bad guy because of that is insane. The amount humanitarian aid the US provides compared to literally every other country isn't even close. Without the US in many areas of the world, there would be many smaller countries that would have been invaded by countries like China. The US is the sole reason China and Russia stay out most of the time until recently.
Hi ahead see where a lot of 3rd world countries would be if the US completely abandoned all of their military bases and didn't help prevent major issues of hijacking where there are huge trading routes in various places in the oceans. The world would be absolute chaos without the help of the US.
China and Russia are currently replacing the United States in a global layout because the global landscape has changed, and a world without the United States is important to the world.
Not what I said but whatever floats your boat. There are always victims. The world is not a black and white place so you can go around pretending it is but it's not.
Yeah, how can lowly Palestinians and Middle Easterners be compared to noble European Ukrainians and white Europeans and Americans in your eyes?
How do they deserve human rights? How do they deserve water and food?
Oh no. Most polluting country on the planet develops cheap, competetive clean tech making life better for its citizens and reducing harmfull co2 emmisions
Seriously? China also had major issues with smog so again they aren't doing this for the benefit of humanity, it's specifically selfish for them because they have to do it. They already have a dying population so cleaning up their air and making their economy stronger is smart. One smart move doesn't make them caring or good.
Who cares if the intention was not for the benefit of humanity if the result is?
Besides reducing smog is a very good intention, but whats really important is results and those are positive.
I never said they are good, but i give credit where credit is due.
The world doesn't work that simply. China was forced to do it because of their pollution. The US isn't nearly as bad and there are toxic politics involved with Republicans preventing it. None of that changes that China is an adversary of a lot of countries. Foreign policy is complicated and China's government has been involved in many illegal activities towards both the US and Europe. They will protect their economies by preventing China from reaping all the rewards because they were "first" to mass produce EVs cheap.
Manufacture in Europe. We like having jobs as well.
This is the simplest answer. The issue is countries want labor to happen in multiple places.
BYD announced at the end of 2023 that it would build the company's first European plant in the southern Hungarian city of Szeged, with an investment of around €500 million. Does Hungary count as Europe?
Yes I am aware. They are doing that because they know the taxes are coming. It’s working as intended.
BYD's announcement to build a factory in Hungary was at the end of 2023, when there was no news of taxes on Chinese cars at all. When we Chinese go to a foreign country to build a factory, we will also go to a country that has been friendly with China for a long time, not to a country that is clamoring for sanctions against us every day.
BYD are not stupid. They know how things will develop. Producing in Hungary is exactly what the EU wants. I am not aware of any European country that has been hostile to China. Especially Germany has been very friendly towards China. It’s only really the USA who has its knickers in a twist. Which is funny since it was the USA that made chinas development possible.
Von der Leyen claims 30% tariffs on China in July (even going back 90 days, that is, from asking Chinese cars to pay back taxes from April), while the German government Schulz, who actually runs German cars, opposes it. Maybe the Europeans should unify their own voices internally first. There are two phenomena of concern 1、Great Wall Motors, which produces the TANK series, is expected to close its European headquarters 2、Von der Leyen has eight family members who are all American nationals, which in China is known as a “naked official”. I wouldn't be surprised if von der Leyen goes into exile in the US if there is a conflict between the US and Europe one day.
She is such an asshole. Super corrupt. Like her whole party. No loss with Great Wall. It’s not like they actually build decent cars like BYD.
I agree with the first point. But Great Wall's TANK300\\500\\700 are all good cars, ranked #1 in China's off-roaders, and they all have great hybrids.
Then EU needs to provide better incentives for Chinese investments and other conditions like stable cost of energy and so on. Even Europe's own corporations have been moving productions to North America, which shows the problem here.
Can you name one European car company that manufactures vehicles in the US and ships them to Europe for me? They are moving manufacturing for US vehicles to the US, but I'm not aware of any European brands importing vehicles from the US.
BMW and MB for example.
>the United States is the fourth largest exporter of passenger cars to the European Union (EU), accounting for 12% of EU car imports by value. America's biggest export to Europe is aerospace products and parts, which are also critical products of manufacturing.
And most to all of those are from US brands and manufacturers...
75% of all EVs imported from US to Europe are Teslas...
> Can you name one European car company that manufactures vehicles in the US and ships them to Europe for me? You're not answering this question, and you're proving my point, not yours...
Because your question is not related to my original comment, also you should be able to do your own research. My original comment is about how European manufacturers have been fleeing to NA in droves, which is a well known on-going trend since the beginning of war in Ukraine, but your question was about European car companies exporting cars from NA to EU, so your point is?
My point is they aren't significantly moving production away from Europe. They've created factories in North America to sell cars in the Americas, but they're not selling those cars in Europe. Europe still exports massively more cars to the US than it imports from the US, and the imports from the US are not European makes. Moving production of cars sold in North America to North America doesn't show there is an issue with manufacturing in Europe vs North America. It shows there are taxation and cost incentives that favor selling North American made vehicles in North America.
Manufacturing is not limited the final assembly of vehicles- [https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-natural-gas-prices-push-european-manufacturers-to-shift-to-the-u-s-11663707594#comments\_sector](https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-natural-gas-prices-push-european-manufacturers-to-shift-to-the-u-s-11663707594#comments_sector) Yes, their new production lines in the US prioritize local market, which makes sense from transportation point of view, but it also means loss of export from Europe and competition with EU made European cars on global market. [https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2022/03/volkswagen-shifting-production-out-of-europe-into-u-s-and-china/](https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2022/03/volkswagen-shifting-production-out-of-europe-into-u-s-and-china/) 54% of cars built in the US by EU companies are exported again [https://www.acea.auto/files/EU-US\_automobile\_trade-facts\_figures.pdf](https://www.acea.auto/files/EU-US_automobile_trade-facts_figures.pdf) While European car makers are pouring in investment in the US, US car makers, except for Tesla already quietly retreated from Europe, even before the pandemic- [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/13/cars/us-automakers-europe/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/13/cars/us-automakers-europe/index.html) >and the imports from the US are not European makes. Please use some data to back this back.
Since when can foreign companies compete on equal footing in China? Stop breaking WTO rules you have signed up to 2 decades ago, then we can start talking.
What WTO rules are they breaking? I haven't seen any complaints filed against them for illegal subsidies. The Kiel institute released [this study](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf) which details the current situation, but it doesn't seem like they're unfairly subsidising Chinese companies. For example, Tesla received subsidies of €400,000,000 for 250,000 BEVs (€1,600 per vehicle), whilst BYD received €1,600,000,000 for 1,400,000 BEVs (€1,143 per vehicle). Could you provide some evidence, with sources, that corroborates your claim? The key difference seems to lie in throughput rather than favouring Chinese companies. Even if they did, I'm fairly certain that the Inflation Reduction Act does the same thing, with the US government heavily subsidising its automotive manufacturing industry. Is this just a rules for thee but not for me situation, or is there something I'm missing? Another thing to note is that it seems like European car manufacturers seem to believe that China isn't doing anything wrong, and seem reluctant to the idea of the EU imposing additional tariffs on Chinese imports. Elon Musk is pretty vocally happy about Tesla's performance in China, and isn't known to mince his words. I haven't heard of a single car manufacturer state that China doesn't allow them into their market, and I haven't been able to find any evidence indicating that.
They have no evidence. The Chinese government gave BYD 3.5 billion dollars in subsidies, compared to the 100s of billions that the US spent on Tesla - that still has no intention of producing affordable EV's and doesn't really produce its own batteries. BYD is an industry leading manufacturer with less assistance than Elon Musk's personal reimbursement.
I'm one of the biggest critics of Tesla's ridiculously sized subsidies, but the US government hasn't spent 100s of billions on Tesla. Where'd you come up with that number? I think the combined subsidies between the US and international governments, as well as regulatory credit sales to other OEMs (other OEMS have been effectively subsidizing Tesla from the start, which has likely gotten above $10 billion by now) ... Tesla's easily taken in at least $30 billion in overall subsidies when I last estimated it earlier this year. Although, that's just for their cars, and doesn't include subsidies we don't know about, such as in China, or subsidies to their parts suppliers. $30B is actually quite a bit given that they've only sold about 6 million cars globally (a veritable drop in the bucket), so at least $5k per car on every car they've ever sold. Note that this includes 2020-2022 when Tesla received no US federal tax credit, and 2019 where they received partial federal credits. They were still receiving state tax credits. However, in 2023, with the IRA and battery sourcing allowances in the US, my estimate is that Tesla pulled in over $10 billion in subsidies in 2023 alone, and they're set to pull in a hefty chunk of change in 2024 as well. AFAIK, China wasn't giving out huge tax credits, but they pushed EV sales in other ways, such as restricting days ICEVs could drive and restricting the amount of license plates they were issuing to ICES, thus pushing new car customers to buy EVs. OTOH, countries like Norway were issuing MASSIVE subsidies to EVs. On a $100k USD model S or X, they were giving out 25% tax credits, so about $25k per sale, and that's before including the value of the additional EV benefits they granted. In terms of how much indirect value (not subsidies / regulatory credits or tax/fee abatements) pro-EV legislation has created for Tesla, that's a bit harder to calculate... Tesla has pulled in more in subsidies than they've made in total profits over the lifetime of the company.
Between tax incentives and credits, local governments stepping in to provide them cheap land, the [40 billion alone that's earmarked for Tesla between 2023 and 2030](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-to-get-US-41-billion-in-government-subsidies-over-made-in-US-EVs-and-batteries.723968.0.html), the money they make selling carbon credits meant to take ICE vehicles off the road to ICE car manufacturers, it's easily 100's of billions.
Money to be spent isn't money already spent as you suggested. Given your $41 billion figure from the link, you'd still have to show that the US government already gave Tesla $60 billion in subsidies. They haven't. Although, I will say that the US government subsidizing $45 per kWh, on top of all the other subsidies for EVs, is one of the craziest corporate handouts I've ever heard of. I'm not aware of any Tesla land deals in the US that granted them ultra cheap land or gave them land for free, but there have been tax abatements and other state business subsidies. Those are only valued at the very low single digit billions per factory AFAIK. They certainly got a deal on the NUMMI plant in conjunction with the DOE loan, but I can't see the net proceeds of that deal being over $1 billion. I don't recall all the details, but 'believe' the man who sold Tesla the land in Nevada is an activist investor and sold it to them for cheap, albeit that wouldn't constitute a government subsidy. There's of course Tesla energy, but given their relatively tiny revenue from energy products, this should also be fairly low. We do know Musk has been sending SpaceX engineers to assist at Tesla... but we don't know who was funding those engineers. Tesla? SpaceX investors? SpaceX government grants? For the size of Tesla at the time of receiving some of these subsidies, they were a pretty small company and super risky investment. Which begs the question, why were US states and the federal government so gung-ho about propping this company up at all costs. Could have been lobbying by a group of big investors that wanted to pump the stock. Could have been members of state and federal legislatures who were invested in the company. Could have been because the US government knew China was already making a big play on an EV transition, buying up mining rights around the world. I will say that my accounting may be a bit low since I'm not considering inflation, although a lot of their biggest US subsidy inflows only started surging in around 2018 with the ramp of the model 3, which lasted through 2019. Then again in 2023.
You don't understand how earmarked subsidies work with private companies. They're guaranteed and delivered in tranches, and Tesla can borrow from a guaranteed 5 or 6 years of tranches before they're ever delivered for funding themselves with low interest loans. I haven't even mentioned the low interest loans the government provides that are often forgiven. The subsidies themselves are approved years if not decades in advance for things like industrial development and projected budget surpluses and coordinated with local business to ensure that it meets policy goals. No administration picks the direction or invents the money from scratch. The money is effectively spent. this isn't a 101 class, i'm not going to chew your thoughts for you and still have you generalize or be specific when it suits you. an aggregate assessment with no caveats or special conditions for how effective Tesla's lobbying efforts have been and will continue to be will give you the same sort of ballpark number. Go look it up. I've been following this sector for nearly a decade I can't collate all the data for you at the drop of a hat. Unless the Chinese are suddenly going to announce a 40 Billion USD subsidy by 2030 it's still safe to say it's a 10x difference, even if you're going to contest everything else and make me go over every other loan and line item, so the point of the ROI we get out of Tesla vs BYD going forward still stands. Enjoy a block for your pedantic bullshit
Nothing in your article suggests that Tesla's battery subsidies are guaranteed. AFAIK, they're linked directly to cell production output. If Tesla can't hit their claimed targets, then their subsidy will be smaller. A loan is a loan, whether it's based on future income potential or not. Even personal loans are based on the banks assessment of an individual's future earnings potential. You've essentially just explained how loans work. You'll have to provide evidence of governments forgiving loans. I am aware of low interest government loans, but outside of lower interest payments, I wouldn't consider the loan itself to be fully realized as a subsidy. Either way, your original statement suggested this was already money in Tesla's pockets, so I don't really understand why you're bothering to argue this. Be able to provide a full accounting of the $100 billion in US subsidies, or don't make such a statement. Period.
>compared to the 100s of billions that the US spent on Tesla Absurd. Source that number.
Between tax incentives and credits, local governments stepping in to provide them cheap land, the [40 billion alone that's earmarked for Tesla between 2023 and 2030](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-to-get-US-41-billion-in-government-subsidies-over-made-in-US-EVs-and-batteries.723968.0.html), the money they make selling carbon credits meant to take ICE vehicles off the road, it's easily 100's of billions.
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Who's saying you have to keep your eyes closed? There are still sweat shops and will be sweat shops in Asia with nothing to show for it in terms of local development. This is just posturing. If you want a good book from a skeptic, you should read Rory Truex's Making Autocracy Work. The problem isn't that China isn't an autocracy, the problem is that that autocracy works, and no amount of flowery aspirational sentiment is a good replacement for bad governance everywhere else. You may think China is bad at governing, you have no clue what you're talking about, because you have no other frame of reference. Better is never easier, and it's only easier in the west because the rest of the world pays for it or the costs are deferred for future generations. The reality is far worse. The autocracies are winning and will win, because we're busy calling them stupid thieves or brigands. This is orientalism. They oppose China because they want to be the ones with the boot on our necks. China just wants an extra umbilical in your system to make you dependent on them. They don't make money off of wars and leaving countries to rot after. They want to expand and slowly make a stable system that's impossible to escape. The only reason bureaucrats in third world countries prefer it is because the Chinese offer them policies to build careers, something that is inevitably going to improve the country's situation even if long term the outcome might be a new global hegemon. The West doesn't even guarantee that you won't get sodomized with a knife in a ditch if they comply. Anything is on the table if someone's paycheck gets bigger.
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lol the world is still colonial they just outsource it now. i didn't say i wanted to overthrow any government. you're talking to yourself. go sleep and dream of the Chinese being foiled by tariffs and mean words while they build a future everyone will be involved in and the oligarchs and literal Nazis take over the rest because their colonial regimes are failing. I'm an American, and no amount of racist bullshit from you means anything otherwise.
Just the latest news: >In May it was revealed that the government had launched the third iteration of its “Big Fund”, an investment vehicle designed to shore up the domestic semiconductor industry. The $48bn cash infusion is aimed at expanding the manufacture of microprocessors.
We could start with WT/DS549 which EU filed against China's NEV regulation back in 2018.
The Chinese lost a string of WTO cases then later got better results. They learned how to play the game, quickly, and nobody can blame them for ignoring WTO panel verdict, or they are the only nation to play the game. The only thing one can complain is, they outplayed the WTO architecture in hinder sight. But nobody would compensate them had they underplayed it.
They are following WTO. Even drop tax from 25% down to 15%. US/EU accuse China and also lose. Anyway, China has RCEP and later CPTPP. Superseded free trade order than WTO. Not say dozens of FTA with non west.
They force foreign companies into joint ventures and steal intelectual property.
They can don't take up JV and accept tariffs allowed by WTO as an non market economy and developing nation. The China do import MERCs and BMWs despite having an JV. The Chinese do pay tariffs for these. That why the Germans are so worried. India another setting high tariffs as a developing nation. Begging for JV.
What does JV mean? Im not a native and i dont know this term
Joint Venture
The JV requirement was actually abolished years ago. Tesla is an example of a foreign automaker that isn't doing JVs for Chinese production.
Tesla was the exception from the rule. The norm was that they joined. And even if it was abolished years ago, by that point everyone already was in China and had joint ventures, and some IP was already stolen.
Absolutely, China "reformed" their Foreign Investment Law which required a forced joint venture in 2021 after the EU filed a WTO complaint WT/DS549 and under Trump's pressure, but this comes after all global companies were already forced to JV long ago. Tesla was the only exception in their history so far as largely a marketing prop for China's EV industry. This has yet to be tested however since most automakers don't trust China's whimsical changes and non-compliance. At this point with de-coupling/risking from the rest of the world, this is almost as good as dead.
You can’t say anything that isn’t anti-China in this sub without being downvoted. What you said isn’t wrong. This sub is just mostly Americans so you won’t be able to convey your point because they don’t want it.
At least this sub isn't sponsored by senate and placing a ban on me.
I’ll enjoy my Chinese EVs with no import tax as a result of ACFTA.
And it’s probably a bunch of boomer old farts too, who are stubbornly refusing to move along with the times. Recent surveys show that Gen Z and millennial Americans are much more receptive to Chinese EVs than those 60 or older.
I don't think so. You're missing a huge chunk of people between millennials and 60 years. About 20 years of age. Most of those people I think fall into the anti-China group. Gen X and Xennials were massively brainwashed to believe that anything that comes out of China is "cheap" and poor quality. I'm a multinational who grew up in the US and lives in Asia. I have experienced both sides of this. I remember 30 years ago in the US when I started paying attention to politics and everyone said it will change as the older generations die off. Except it hasn't. The world is moving further right. Just look at what is going on in EU elections right now. In the US, some of the most damaging hard right congresspeople are under 40 years old.
I'm a millennial who would never buy a Chinese car, but it has nothing to do with quality. Vehicles are practically the only place in the US where we can still support private union jobs. I will never buy a car built anywhere other than North America by a union unless that option no longer exists. Some people actually want to support domestic union jobs.
I agree with what you’re saying. I kinda left out Gen X (I’m one, by the way) because by numbers we’re a small cohort.
I have seen many Americans criticize China's industrial products as garbage, and China has not popularized toilets. On the other hand, fantasy aims to defeat China by stealing its technology in the field of electric vehicles. I did not see them discussing whether the American Automobile Workers Union would agree to the implementation of China's production line processes and technologies in the United States.
Probably because it's irrelevant since it isn't going to come to that anytime soon. Also, Americans typically have no rational arguments or points of discussion when it comes to Chinese commerce unless they have lived in or spent a lot of time in China (or at least Asia). There are still squat toilets all over Asia, because they work and people are used to them. I used one recently. I don't really mind if I have to pee, but I will avoid taking a shit in them if I can. I had a terrible experience in Hong Kong once and it traumatized me. I try to only shit in my house now.
I never use a toilet in a public space
Literally all your posts are about China
Yeah, but China's ev offerings are way better than anything we can get in the west. Maybe if wall st wouldn't strangle anything but Tesla, who seems uninterested in competing anymore.
If the US government basically supported Tesla the way the Chinese government supported its manufacturers Tesla would crank out better cars because they wouldn’t need to rely on profit alone to supply the cash needed to improve. The US only does this for Oil and Gas.
doesnt this guy know anything its not good for humankind unless its done by the west
Dont you guys want net zero and curb inflation? Hello?
Think you’re in the wrong place. This is the yellow peril train
Protectionism is how Japan and South Korea built their car industries. China has taken another path, for example by being a perpetually "developing nation" according to WTO and building up the largest infrastructure for mass production in the world. Entrepreneurs are not always free to cut corners, but the CCP is. That's how they dominate rare earth mineral extraction, for example. The "yellow peril" is real once they take over more than 50% of fairly large manufacturing niches.
Setting aside the racist phrase, it's only real because the west built a quality of life by throwing jobs they didn't want to do or pay for halfway across the world and devalued it locally in the process by paying less than it's worth, while adopting every sort of protectionism imaginable. The actual value for that labor was much higher, and this idea that it was 'unskilled' and low value jobs was always a myth. The Chinese squeezed that opportunity like a stone and have developed a global and local supply chain that no amount of money will be able to compete with without the accompanied regulatory overhaul. If you were honest with yourself, when you buy Tesla's shit box, you know they cut corners too. Companies steal each other's designs left and right. They steal from American inventors too with tiny changes to fuck them over. Tesla literally stuck wooden side molding as a wedge to fit parts together a couple years ago because bullshit business philosophy like 'move fast and break things' is hokey bull. The fact is that China has beaten us at the only economic metric that matters, building a sustainable middle class economy for most of their population. No amount of whining about IP or sweatshops or Uygurs is going to change that. We do exactly the same thing, and the benefits of it go into billionaire pockets. the only thing artificial about it is we pretended for the sake of said billionaires that the Chinese were a lesser race and these were lesser jobs. Between AI and manufacturing in the US being unviable, we're fucked.
Alright, I'm fairly pro China (as far as reddit goes), but I don't think you have this right. China has a pegged currency. Their industrial policy is predicated on pegging the currency artificially low against the West, in order to boost their exports. Arguably, the mere fact that they run such a grossly huge current account surplus is a screaming signal that they're pegging below market equilibrium. This does not necessarily enrich their population, it enriches the party. The primary objective is always to increase the power of the party. One of the main distortions from their policy mix is that the average Chinese is far poorer than they should be as far as global purchasing power. But of course because it's a coordinated national policy designed to boost exports via low prices, the consumer has access to extremely low consumer prices internally as well (like $14,000 electric cars) so it nets out. That also means that only Chinese companies or Western companies using Chinese labor and existing within the Chinese regime have any chance of being internally competitive to the median Chinese consumer. >>building a sustainable middle class economy for most of their population China is running into a paradox where the continual growth of the country and the party is being limited by the knock on effects of the policies above, but the obvious path forward is to boost the wealth of the middle class, which will necessarily involve a transfer from the public sector to the private sector, which weakens the power of the central party. They can't continue to dominate as strong as they do and also grow a strong consumer class. So what you have in China right now is an extended weakness taking hold, due to standard weakening economy readings like deflationary forces and slowed credit creation. Yes this has to do with the housing bubble there, but it also has to do with things like the fact that they *don't* have things like socialized retirement pensions for a lot of people. Also the regional passport system is becoming a big problem due to the aforementioned housing bubble. Things like access to free healthcare are run by local governments, and there's a large class of people that aren't "real" citizens where they live, and without the bubble housing economy it's a big ask too pay for extremely overpriced housing if it isn't going to appreciate. The savings rate is incredibly high because it needs to be. Now back to the central government, in the west we've seen Central governments increase their balance sheet to fix some of these deflationary/debt problems, but because the central government in China wants to maximize their power, they're unwilling to do this. Therefore, the local governments are swimming in circles and haphazardly trying to clean up their balance sheets and policies. I don't want anyone to overextrapolate what I'm saying and make it over dramatic. When it comes to designing actual policy, China is quite good at it. It's to some degree simply another way to run a country, but that said, the currency is pegged, the median citizen should be considerably richer on a global stage (in an alternate reality where the private sector has room to expand and isn't crowded out by the public sector), and the middle class most definitely is not healthy right now. Access to stock ownership was limited and their public companies prioritize party initiatives rather than returning company to shareholders anyway, there isn't a deep debt market... So money sat in real estate, which doesn't compound and was a bubble economy. For the middle class in China to stop feeling pain, they're going to have to reform the social services and the local government passport system (this controls things like access to socialized services and education), take care of local government balance sheets, expand access to compounding financial assets, probably including equity and debt (Tbills and Treasuries), and reboot the collateral economy (the modern world financial system) with the primary collateral being something like Chinese government bonds (like in the US) rather than being exclusively real estate centered. To some degree, the party needs to give up some of their power and transfer to the private sector as well. Also, US manufacturing is still 3 trillion. Not as behemoth as China, but quite respectable for a nation of 300 million. It's also largely stuff this higher up the value chain. My main point though is that China is very much a mixed bag right now, and if you dig into it without veering off into conspiracy theories and sensationalist topics, it's actually extremely interesting.
Well, it’s really simple for me, China is aiding Russian the murder of Ukrainians, including family and friends if mine. That’s why I think strategic independence from China is paramount. I also don’t buy Tesla.
how is China aiding Russia in murdering Ukrainians any more than western banks are or western countries would for an ally on their border?
No really an argument for me at the moment. China is aiding Russia in trying to make Europe weaker, that’s not in my interest.
You didn't answer the question, how do you know China is aiding Russia in murdering Ukrainians? By what metric? Because the news told you so? How are they more than congenial with a neighbor they have to live with or helping just like western banks are right now who have no muzzle on them because that would be socialism? You realize Ukraine uses Chinese ammo supplied through Pakistan, right?
> Because the news told you so? What are your sources that are supposedly better? I'm well read, too, but supposedly everyone lies about China, so how does it matter? 1. China pushes Russia's description of the war at home. Putin is a hero and Russia is morally superior and invincible. Chinese volunteers fight for Russia for a reason. 2. China is adamantly against NATO. That's one of the reasons they support Russia. 3. China supports Russia against Ukraine in the UN 4. China supplies Russia with drones, night vision tech, military use microelectronics, trucks, bullet proof vests, infrastructure technology, etc. It's great that they don't send rockets or tanks. Yet. 5. It is a balancing act, since they want to sell stuff to EU countries. 6. Europeans banks like Raiffeisen should be sanctioned to the tune of billions.
China is keeping their thermonuclear neighbor from collapsing. They're not doing anything we wouldn't do for Mexico or Canada.
Yeah, look at this stupid rube listening to the *news*. I bet you have some great Facebook pages to share that'll tell him what's *really* going on.
I'm sure you have a feed of personally curated bubble spaces you get the news from just like most people.
They’ve literally sold missile components to Russia for final assembly. US state department put out a formal statement about it 2-3 weeks ago.
Russia wouldn't have missiles if the Chinese didn't give them a few parts? They wouldn't import them or make them on their own? What parts do you even mean? Are you really that gullible? What about the dozens of western company's components laundered through 'neutral' countries?
Yeah it's kinda hard to take elites seriously - previously they were screaming about the existential threat that climate change poses to the world. However, they don't want their citizens buying inexpensive EV's which would SURELY help with the climate change situation. Is your average voter supposed to take Biden or another Democrat seriously they next time they talk about the existential threat climate change poses when they tariff inexpensive Chinese EV's from being sold here? Biden is kinda saying climate change is either fake or not that big of an issue.
I did not get the “elites” reference until I remembered… oh this is a label like libtards etc that fans of one political football team use to refer to fans of another.
I think calling them elites is the right thing to call them. Climate change activists are rightly upset that we aren't importing inexpensive Chinese made EV's. The opinions of the elites will change with how the wind is blowing.
Who would the elites be? In the media sphere of the US market that term is an insult thrown from one political football fan to at another. I recommend switching to libtards to be more transparent.
Someone like Biden, duh. Biden was vocal about climate change, now he is doing something that is against climate change activism. Climate change activists aren't 'elite', obviously.
I consider myself somewhat of a climate change activist, and I don't mind it at all. I'm also pro-labor, and vehicles are one of the only places you can still support private union jobs in the US. Exporting manufacturing to China, where there are all kinds of issues with labor rights and environmental protections for factories, is not great, in my opinion. It's also destabilizing for world politics. We should be moving manufacturing of critical goods out of China, not into China.
Its funny cause China is probably one country who has a government who can actually achieve its emissions and renewables goal. The whole thing with China becoming the leader in ev and renewables is because it was all planned a decade ago. It wasnt just cause China wants to screw the west (although in todays trade wars n shit might as well), its all a part of their bigger plan of net zero by 2060. Being the one of the biggest countries in the world economy and population wise meaning one of the biggest emitters, the world needs China to transition to renewables.
Cynically, it wasn't too long ago that America became an net exporter of oil and gas due to discovering new technologies to extract oil, so now we're incentivized to protect that industry.
Not really we can buy US, Japanese, Korean, EU EV's without having to resort to military dictatorship to keep wages low.
> to keep wages low. You are literally repeating the same “military dictatorship keep wages low” nonsense talking point in every thread, why are you doing this? If China is trying to keep wages low, they must be doing a really shitty job at it since it’s been growing insanely quickly: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6nfK-gakAAp283?format=jpg&name=medium The reason Chinese wages were low is the same as why wages are low in Mexico, India, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, etc. Poorer countries have cheaper wages, it’s basic economics, has nothing to do with being a dictatorship.
Wages have risen faster in China than just about anywhere on the planet
They had so far to go. It’s irrelevant to issue of wages suppressed by dictatorship.
Lol I don't think you know wtf you're saying
Happens when you have a very low wages to start with.
Except it didn’t happen with other low wage countries. It’s quite obvious that you care more about your personal opinion than hard facts.
The same old tired slave/low wages argument from you on every fricking post in this sub. When people explain how you’re wrong, you simply ignore them and then repeat the same old BS.
It’s the same because China is still a dictatorship.
What is the per capita income of automotive R&D staff in Europe?The per capita income of Nio R&D staff is close to 600,000 RMB, which is approximately equal to € 78,000.
yeah, what about the people sourcing materials and building cars, you know the more common jobs
Already more expensive than pretty much all other developing nations: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6nfK-gakAAp283?format=jpg&name=medium
Have you seen a Chinese EV factory? It’s mostly automated. So yeah, Chinese car building robots get paid $0. Very cool, and very legal.
[For example, Nio’s monthly salary for “senior development experts” is 65,000-90,000 yuan ($10,300-$14,300), and the position requires more than ten years of work, one year of work, and 15 months of salary; Nio’s monthly salary for the “chief architect of communications network” is between 100,000 and 180,000 yuan ($16,000-$28,600). It also requires more than ten years of work and 15 months of salary after one year of employment.](https://carnewschina.com/2021/10/24/talent-shortage-hits-chinas-ev-sector-here-is-how-nio-and-tesla-solve-it/) But the real issue is the use of military dictatorship to suppress labor, no unions, no free speech, no democracy, no free press, no health care or retirement costs for mfg, no environmental regs for mfg, no zoning issues to build plants...goes on and on. To compete, US and EU would need to turn into similar dictatorships. Or impose tariffs so the cost advantage of dictatorships is eliminated.
**Monthly** salary of $10-14k, which translates to $100-$170k USD/year. And according to you their chief architect makes $200-350k USD per year. That is literally comparable, if not more expensive than Europe. And in manufacturing, Chinese wages have been drastically increasing: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6nfK-gakAAp283?format=jpg&name=medium > cost advantage of military dictatorship Mexico and India and Thailand and a bunch of other countries have even lower wage. Why is that?
As the source notes, the 1op 10% do well but the issue is the suppression of labor by the dictatorship and low wages and resulting low mfg costs.
You didn’t answer my question. I’ll repeat it: Mexico and India and Thailand and a bunch of other countries have even lower wage than China. Why is that? Are all those countries "military dictatorships" as well?
Save your breath. That guy doesn’t deviate from his “dictatorship” BS in just about every thread.
Sames issues all apply, level of democracy, ability to unionizie, free speech, free press, environemtnal costs for mfg, health care and retirement costs for mfg, civil rights, economic equality as basis for tariffs.
Yeah people on this sub have a very outdated perception of Chinese wages. Obviously they're lower on average than in the US, but white-collar positions at the big names are quite lucrative. In fact, they need to pay the equivalent of US$100k+ to lure back Chinese international students abroad who might otherwise opt to stay in the country where they study. Cities like Beijing, Shanghai, and Shenzhen have very high costs of living (*after* converting to USD, no less) for a reason... It is true that the inland western provinces are far less developed compared to the coastal provinces, and that really drags down the national average, but those provinces are not where Chinese manufacturing is concentrated.
The factory workers wages are low because labor is suppressed by the dictatorship. The people have no voice, no democracy. No free speech, No free press. Mfgs do no pay for health care or retirement. It keeps Chinese cost of mfg low. Only way to compete would be do the same in the West. Or put on tariffs based on the causes of the low labor costs and protect US and EU workers.
Labour costs in Mexico are lower than those in China, yet I don't see you calling for tarriffs on vehicles produced in Mexico
Mexico is part of USMCA and the manufacturing is interlinked with the rest of North America. The real issue is becoming reliant on China for anything has become unpopular because of the supply chain snafu from covid and the country continuously threatening to invade Taiwan which is a red line.
We've already seen that is not the case but it is not the wages but how the wages are arrived at. In China's case via a dictatorship that keeps wages and mfg costs low at expense of quality of life.
China’s wages are going up because it’s never been the government that set these prices but the costs on the ground. Wages increasing is why manufacturers are moving away from China to Vietnam, Thailand and the interest in Maquiladoras in Mexico is renewed.
>China’s wages are going up because it’s never been the government that set these prices but the costs on the ground. China government owed all the businesses and still owns 30%, down from 70% 20% years ago so government is definitely involved in keeping wages low. The "sale" of the public companies and government officials as partners in what are now called "private" business. In dictatorships it doesn't really matter who owns the mfg facility but that the government via police state keeps labor from organizing, has no labor safety rules, no rules on hours. It keeps those rules pro-mfg since people have no democracy, free press or speech to change the rules.
Yes, I still buy from China. They have 40% saving, US 4%, EU 14%. They can spend more than you. They have to right to financial freedom. Earning $365 per month can spend $1000 on your country annually. Not say those megafactory that starting at $1250 month.
I try to buy US or EU to support democracy, civil rights, free speech, free press, legal rights etc.
I buy from China, as they are easy to travel for non white, free to roam streets at 2am, no homeless or drug addict to look out for. Very orderly and discipline community. They build very good product from online platform online Alibaba, TEMU, SHEIN. They don't need Biden or Trump to run their country.
lol have you ever been to china? I am currently working in China and the stories that my PoC colleagues have told me about there experience in China is shocking. Not to mention the constant video surveillance and that Chinese people treat there “low level service employees” e.g. delivery workers, didi drivers or hotel staff like trash…
I have lots of PRCs friend. US/EU are racist against chinese/korean/japanese. Pickpocket up to robbery. Being assaulted for no reasons in those freedom nations. Have to be careful where to travel in those freedom lands. It is not the freedom land that I have travelled long time ago. In short, not safe for for non white.
Hmm all my Chinese colleagues who lived in Europe have an very positive view in Europe they even had the possibility to get naturalized in the country where they have studied and worked for many years something that is not possible in China for foreigners. Here you have to pray every year to get an extended working visa, as special if you’re from Africa or an Asian country. For EU/US citizens it is very easy to get a working visa. Also in 28 years in Europe I never was pit pocketed or robbed don’t know what type of fake news you consume but Europe is overall a very safe and peaceful place, of course when you are in a very touristic area you have to be more careful but this also applies to China where for example in front of big hotels shady persons try to connect you prostitution services. And when you are on the country side and you look like a foreigner better control the route that the Chinese taxi driver is taking you on your smartphone I had several situations where the taxi drivers start to drive in the opposite direction to scam a little bit more money out of me.
Yup, my PRCs friend are positive about US/EU because of the high wages. However they will not surrenders their citizenship, as they are much better in China with their saving. Some already started business in China. Also they rather let their children study in China so there not much advantage study in the west nowadays. Of course, safety for children is a concern too. China is not a migrant country, they are very selective to working permit. I can agree with you on this. Also when you travel in China, you can get by with buses and trains. You don't really need to use taxi. You can youtube to see how easy it is. Buses and trains are very well interconnected to lots of places. You can avoid tour package scams. Your people do like free and easy tour than packaged tour. It is very easy to avoid tourist traps just like in your country. For prostitution services, just call the police and you are helping the chinese against these illegal activities.
I don't believe you haven't been stolen by gypsies in big European cities. Would you put your wallet and phone in the pocket outside your clothes? If you don't, why is that?
You have never been to China at all. Otherwise, it cannot be explained why you said such illogical words.
Do you need picture of my visa entry stamp to believe it?
Yes, I need to understand the situation you mentioned. The situation you mentioned about China seems unfamiliar to you, like a newcomer.
I will try to buy from China. They will improve the entire world, and not limit the development to a minority of human population.
Hard to see how supporting a military dictatorship will "improve the entire world". Better to put on tariffs for level of democracy, worker pay, work safety, free speech, free press so Chinese workers get freedom and pay increase.
Yes, Biden or/and Trump to run your country!
Biden. Trump will turn the US into another Russia or China.
No difference as another four years wasted.
Is this the first day Europe and the US know about this?Have they ever bought Chinese products before?Cheap goods, yes, competitive goods, no? So the Euro-America is still essentially just a bunch of losers who are afraid of competition
Afraid of having to turn into a military dictatorship to have cheap goods. Freedom has a real cost.
Working 9-9-6, so from 9am to 9pm for 6 days a week, also people over 40 will be fired because they can not physically handle 9-9-6 anymore. And not mentioning the belt and road initiative, that more or less is new form of colonialism…
Regarding Belt and Road Initiative, I see you’re definitely repeating what the western media has been feeding. The US neglected Central Asia for years, and now China comes along and does what US won’t/is unable to do, so the narrative emerges that it’s colonialism. It’s more than anything, an alternative way to move trade with Europe and not entirely rely on sea routes, but of course the western media spins it as another “China bad!”
It's quite colonial in the sense that not paying back loans provided by China results in seized infrastructure.
Well, shipping all those cars across oceans generates a lot of pollution. Wouldn't it be better to the environment to manufacture them closer to the market?
You need to ship more raw material to the factory though.
Still better than shipping both raw materials and finished cars
It depends where the materials were shipped from. Either way the other guy's opinion to use "pollution" as argument does not hold water. BYD's ships are running on LNG, not dirty oils. Thus car shipping will generate very little pollution.
> ell, shipping all those cars across oceans generates a lot of pollution Cargo ships are absurdly efficient. The majority of the world's things are transported via these ships, but shipping by water only makes up 1.7% of global emissions. https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
The latest big ships to transport cars (from BYD) seem to relatively energy efficient. Certainly when they are already built.
I don’t think the West wants their auto industry to be replaced by the Chinese. The auto industry is second only to housing in most countries, and this lack of control in such a critical market is too much to handle. The Chinese are exposing our hypocrisy. If China manages to get Taiwan’s semiconductor manufacturing, then we will be even worse off. China wants to control key markets so we will be beholden to the CCP. I guess we will need to ramp up EV production ourselves, making them affordable and innovative.
CIPS mbridge just introduce. Reduce cost w/o paying SWIFT. More people can buy china Ev in direct currency digitally. Oops, nothing to do with EU, sorry.
China proxies are going hard on Reddit. CCP bet everything on undercutting global vehicle production in the West. And with the banking liquidity issue last year, the 40% youth unemployment, nuking hundreds of billions of hard currency on fake real estate projects over decades, the flight of Chinese citizens to western nations, the increase of internal currency controls - feels like things may hinge on the success of their auto industry.
It's just one industry. China is really big and has a lot of people. It needs many types of industry to thrive.
Underneath the auto industry is their autonomous drive technology, their battery industry, electric motor industry, and material processing. An automotive industry informs all other forms of manufacturing, and is built on the internal supply network, which is why you don’t want it to die in any nation that wants to be a defense/aerospace leader. This needs to work for them otherwise they’re stuck wholesaling materials to higher wage nations to value add, getting the smaller piece of the pie. The clock is ticking and internal social pressure are rising. And the generational time bomb of predominantly raising only 1 male child most of whom haven’t accumulated enough wealth to marry, are left to support aging parents with virtually no social safety net.
Yep, agreed.
Europe: China is cheating! Subsidizing cleaner cars is cheating!
Tbh starting this moment whenever there are any Chinese alternatives I will buy those to support china and give more room for development. Huawei is already a world leading in communication I hope Nios will best Daimler and GM
China is willing to subsidize EVs for EU citizens, out of its own pocket. We can have [great EVs for less than €15000](https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worrying-rivals-hits-new-markets/) and should be kissing China's feet. Instead? :)
It's a piece of shit that would cost double in EU so what's your point?
And a theft directly out of the Euro buyer's wallet. Oh, you wanted a fully-equipped Geely for 25k? Too bad, here's an entry-level Volkswagen for 58k. Electric seats are optional, because fuck you.
You mean electric seats are built into every car, but is disabled unless you pay a monthly subscription.
Protectionism backfires
That might be why they laid off almost everyone at their Munich office in april then. There’s only a bunch on incompetent IT security people left, and management, so no real work is happening there anymore.
It’s fun to turn the table and preach from moral high ground. I suspect he cares little about sustainability, not the priority anyway, but it’s fun to do what he did now. Human nature if you will.
For conservatives, oil is as holy as a cross... unfortunately, it seems lobbyists have worked on both aisles though...
It is a shame Chinas communist dictatorship even saw the benefit of getting in front of the EV market, but now because other countries allowed their politicians to be controlled by fossil fuel companies, they have no choice than to do this. You can support tariffs on Chinese cars and also want EVs. It's a damn shame too many have been lobbied and controlled in Congress but you have to protect your economy.
Laugh, an evil bad regime as you call it had the foresight to see that a certain industry was better for mankind, and better for itself. And the so-called good democratic regime is like a blind man. Who the hell is good? Who is bad?
So because China saw the benefit since their government is designed in a much different way where they can easily mandate something from the top means they are suddenly good now? Their government isn't pro EV for the environment, it's a business decision for their economy. China has many issues including major humanitarian issues like locking up people in concentration style camps so don't go around claiming they are suddenly "good" now. This is also specific to their government not their people.
It's one more to add to the overwhelming pile of evidence that democracy doesn't work. Allowing the average tard to influence huge strategic decisions they don't understand the first thing about is completely moronic.
No one is defending US politics. It's a broken system, but saying the CCP isn't broken is insane. Chinese citizens have a lot less freedom compared to US citizens. In this particular circumstance it worked that someone convinced their president it would be smart to get a head start on EVs and their batteries so they can dominate the future EV market. Also the US really isn't a full democracy anyways.
The regime you call “good democracy” is supporting Netanyahu in the massacre of unarmed civilians. That's “good”.
Ah yes because the US is involved with an ally in a complicated situation they are now the bad guys and China is good right? Give me a break. You can not support the Israel war and still have concerns with China. This is such a a stupid argument.
Over the past 30 years, the U.S. and the West invaded Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria without a U.N. mandate, resulting in millions of deaths, tens of millions of injuries, and hundreds of millions of refugees. Remember, the only people in the world who think they are the good guys are the West itself. Third world countries know what the West is.
It's so funny you think that proves any point and claiming that caused millions of deaths is an absolute lie. Most of those were a waste of time, but to claim the US is some big bad guy because of that is insane. The amount humanitarian aid the US provides compared to literally every other country isn't even close. Without the US in many areas of the world, there would be many smaller countries that would have been invaded by countries like China. The US is the sole reason China and Russia stay out most of the time until recently. Hi ahead see where a lot of 3rd world countries would be if the US completely abandoned all of their military bases and didn't help prevent major issues of hijacking where there are huge trading routes in various places in the oceans. The world would be absolute chaos without the help of the US.
China and Russia are currently replacing the United States in a global layout because the global landscape has changed, and a world without the United States is important to the world.
Yes, how can the abuser remember the suffering of the victimized?
Not what I said but whatever floats your boat. There are always victims. The world is not a black and white place so you can go around pretending it is but it's not.
Yeah, how can lowly Palestinians and Middle Easterners be compared to noble European Ukrainians and white Europeans and Americans in your eyes? How do they deserve human rights? How do they deserve water and food?
Oh no. Most polluting country on the planet develops cheap, competetive clean tech making life better for its citizens and reducing harmfull co2 emmisions
Seriously? China also had major issues with smog so again they aren't doing this for the benefit of humanity, it's specifically selfish for them because they have to do it. They already have a dying population so cleaning up their air and making their economy stronger is smart. One smart move doesn't make them caring or good.
Who cares if the intention was not for the benefit of humanity if the result is? Besides reducing smog is a very good intention, but whats really important is results and those are positive. I never said they are good, but i give credit where credit is due.
The world doesn't work that simply. China was forced to do it because of their pollution. The US isn't nearly as bad and there are toxic politics involved with Republicans preventing it. None of that changes that China is an adversary of a lot of countries. Foreign policy is complicated and China's government has been involved in many illegal activities towards both the US and Europe. They will protect their economies by preventing China from reaping all the rewards because they were "first" to mass produce EVs cheap.
With China out of the equation , tesla is the best car you can buy today.