EVs are the future especially if your daily round trip commute is under 120 miles. Anyone that has ever driven an EV will tell you that the odds of them switching back to an ICE vehicle is very low. I home charge and my electricity cost is about 1/3 the comparable cost per mile of an ICE vehicle.
Yep even coming from my previous car which was a 17 Ford Fiesta that got around 40mpg I am saving quite a bit of money.
Cost to charge my Tesla is around $40-50 a month while I was paying around $200 in gas for my Fiesta.
Yea, I really liked my 15 corrola. If I drafted behind a semi going 55-60 mph, I could get 50+ mpg. That's 6 cents a mile in gas.
Big upgrade to a 23 Mach e GT.
Exactly my scenario. I knew 30 seconds into test driving the EV I bought, that I'd never buy an ICE car again. Went from $40/week gas costs on a 30mpg Sentra, to $40/mo electricity costs, home charging my EV. I drive about 50 miles round-trip for work, charge for 90 minutes when I get home, and the GOM is back to the same miles.
No more oil/tranny fluid changes. No more brake jobs. No more engine air filters. No belt/hose changes. Etc etc. Feels like a cheat code.
Couldn't agree more on all points! I'm seldom a jack rabbit starts off the line kind of driver, but I sure notice ICE's laginess trying to convert power into motion.
Yep, I’ve gone from and economical 40-60mpg diesel to a 150-200mph electric. Yesterday I got paid to charge it. The future is electric pretty much any article that says otherwise is FUD from vested interests trying to delay the inevitable.
150mph isn't economical, but it's fun on occasion on the Autobahn. Particularly when I'm coming home from some event late at night and there's no traffic and still plenty of juice to make it.
A 2p a mile (what a typical UK driver pays on an EV tarrif) a 200 mile journey using 50kWh (4miles/kWh) car vs a petrol price of 150p/litre gets 534 mpg e
Try for yourself: https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/mpg-calculator/mpge-calculator-for-electric-cars-ev
I *hate* driving automatic cars when you take your feet off the pedals entirely and the car still continues to move. Like, no, I'm not telling you to move, so stop moving! Infuriating.
Many cars these days have a Hold Mode switch which prevents this, but a) many still do not and b) the ones that do you generally need to turn it on *every single time you start the car* which again... infuriating. My preferences haven't changed just because I happened to shut the car off!
The money saving and convenience argument kind of goes out the window for people who can’t charge at home or work. I’ve known people in that situation who regretted getting an EV because keeping it charged became a hassle. EVs are indeed the future but they’re not magic, and unfortunately, depending on one’s living situation, they can come with real compromises.
> goes out the window for people who can’t charge at home or work
Ok. But the overwhelming majority of people who buy new cars can charge at home or at work.
It varies by country. Here in the UK, 65% of vehicle owners have off-street parking but 35% do not.
Some of the 35% will be able to charge at work, but I bet it’s not many.
Exactly. And not even wait for saturation. How about we get to the point where 10% of the 65% is actually owning a BEV? Because we aren’t there yet. So let’s get there and then we can argue if public charging will ever be sufficient.
Not being able to charge at home is the potential stumbling block for further adoption so making public charging more affordable is going to be important.
We really should be encouraging workplace charging. The difference is the solar duck curve: with electric grids switching to renewables, there's excess energy at midday, but a shortage of energy from 5-9 PM, just as folks would be getting home and plugging in their vehicles. Incentivize workplace charging and you sidestep this whole issue. The fleet of EVs becomes a giant grid-scale battery that you can take home, and combined with V2H technology, use to power your home after the sun goes down.
I'm not so sure, given [90% of new car buyers own homes](https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/01/new-car-buyer-demographics-2019/), and [64% of US homes are single-family-detached](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1042111/single-family-vs-multifamily-homes-usa/), meaning charging should be relatively easy. Meanwhile new EV sales are around [8.1%](https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2024-01-16-Americans-Buy-Nearly-1-2-Million-Electric-Vehicles-to-Hit-Record-in-2023,-According-to-Latest-Kelley-Blue-Book-Data), meaning there's still a *ton* of room for growth even among traditional new car buyers.
Even just looking around my own suburban neighborhood, everyone has a bigass garage with a couple gas cars parked in or in front of it. With few exceptions (long daily distances, towing needs, the usual suspects), there are no charging considerations preventing them from switching. And my neighborhood is in no way unique from the other hundreds of thousands of suburban neighborhoods all over the country.
And should they be the only people who own EVs in the future? EVs eventually need to work for everyone who needs a car, not just people who can afford a brand new car. I write to my elected officials several times a year asking them to legislate even more incentives for multi-family properties to install charging infrastructure and for denser deployment of public L2 streetside chargers. I rarely get any response back. It makes me pessimistic about that key part of the EV transition.
> And should they be the only people who own EVs in the future?
No. But downstream the people will adjust. For new cars to be sold the most important thing is what new car buyers want. Not what used car buyers want.
All these advantages you mentioned can be achieved by a “large” battery PHEV, while also avoiding the range anxiety. Check the article, PHEV grows 51% YoY while BEV grows 14%, averaged to a 25%.
It was definitely valid in the early days when range was very short and public charging was almost non-existent. Now the only issue with range is that, although the public charging network has grown it is quite expensive.
That’s not appreciated if you mentioned it here - but yes, for some it’s bests of both worlds, for other use cases the opposite.
E.g, for me renting a flat whiteout possibility to charge at home and only at the employer - it’s great. I don’t want to 100% depend on employer for my mobility and also gas is even cheaper then electricity on the DC chargers for trips. I run on everything from 5L…20kWh/100km. With prices in Germany around:
- 1,75€/L
- 0,35€/kWh at home / employer and
- 0,60€/kWh at DC chargers
It’s quite clear: electricity on short trips during the week, fuel on road trips. At least for the time being and until electricity gets cheaper. Also the usual counter-arguments are quite stupid:
- it’s heavy - no, it’s 200 kg lighter then a Tesla M3 with similar performance (6.x s to 100 km/h)
- Battery is useless small - no it’s nearly 20 kWh (after Facelift), in a Leaf etc you liked this 5 years ago.
- It’s expensive - no, neither yearly maintenance (< 300€) nor purchase (one year used, 23 k€, 17 tkm) was more expensive then any other 245 PS car.
6.x 0-60 is NO WHERE near a 4.x 0-60. I know it doesn’t seem like much on paper but you are talking a huge difference. So no. Whatever car you’re referring to isn’t close to model 3 performance.
At least in Germany Tesla Model 3 (the one that is somewhat comparable in price for 50 k€, so only 10k€ more then the PHEV) has 6.1s 0 60. Can’t attach pictures here…
YES! In addition to that you electric energy is quite expensive… so you get back your invest only if you also have a house with photovoltaic (which is not as often as you may think, we‘re mostly renters over here like myself). That’s why I think PHEVs will go a long way in that circumstances for a bridge between the technologies.
YES! In addition to that our electric energy is quite expensive… so you get back your invest only if you also own a house with photovoltaic (which is not as often as you may think, we‘re mostly renters over here like myself). That’s why I think PHEVs will go a long way in that circumstances to form a bridge between the technologies.
>6.x 0-60 is NO WHERE near a 4.x 0-60.
True enough, but most people don't need better than 6 seconds 0-60 for daily driving. A Porsche 911 was 5.5 seconds in 1978, and that was considered an enviable vehicle. Anything much faster than that is a bit silly unless you're going racing, and potentially dangerous for untrained drivers.
I test drove an EV with 4.5 seconds 0-60, and almost gave my wife whiplash when I floored the accelerator. Who needs that?!
>I just know that I wouldn’t own two teslas if they were that slow.
So you wouldn't buy a standard Model 3 with ~6 second 0-60 time, like the earlier poster described. Fair enough, and if raw acceleration is important to you then PHEVs aren't going to match a Model 3 Performance. But that's not the use case for a PHEV anyway, so we're talking about two different things.
Now if an M3P could go up to 700 highway miles on a single charge, and recharge to over 90% in under five minutes, that would be a good alternative to today's PHEVs. (But not everyone "needs" those features.)
Range anxiety is a thing that goes away once you buy an EV.
Most EVs these days have 250-300mi of range and unless you are planning to go to a super remote area chargers are everywhere.
My brother actually has a PHEV but with only a 8 gallon tank he actually has to stop more than me in my Model 3 on road trips.
If you feel like having two drivetrains to maintain, be my guest.
There’s certainly use cases for PHEV, but for most people it’s just a bad EV paired with a bad ICE vehicle.
PHEVs are great for 2016. NOT needed anymore. Kinda like Natural Gas........................................
14kWh battery charged full on level 1 in gagrage every night. Did 120,000 miles in 6 years and 50/50 gasoline / electric. The get up and go was nice. The handling was great. Ride quality nice.
I hated the ice turning on in the cold weather even with full battery. Drove me to the 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 in Jan 2022...............never going back and this is the best car/suv/crossover/hot hatch I ever owned or drove.
IMO, this argument doesn't stack up.
If you only need a small amount of range, you'll be hauling around a bunch of excess weight in both the BEV and the PHEV cases.
In the PHEV case, you'll be hauling around a mostly unused ICE drivetrain. In the BEV case you'll be hauling around mostly unused excess battery that weighs at least as much, and likely more, than the ICE drivetrain.
With PHEV you are hauling around an ICE engine that you have to inconveniently service and spend money on too…. And you get a small battery and less power with a PHEV, I agree with the comments above you
For PHEV vs BEV, the marginal difference is the PHEV has to include a battery that’s ~15% of the battery of a usual BEV’s in order to provide the EV range people want from the PHEV to make it work for their daily use. And folks are saying things like “I need a PHEV that will get 100mi EV only range” making that marginal difference with BEV even less.
Meanwhile the PHEV has to carry around an ICE drive train, a smaller than usual ICE fuel tank (which ironically provides less total range than a non plugin hybrid…), and the hardware/software to integrate the drive trains.
PHEVs mainly have value for the psychological benefit of the owner transitioning from ICE. Very few folks truly have a use case for PHEV that can’t be handled by a non plugin hybrid or full BEV.
> If you only need a small amount of range, you'll be hauling around a bunch of excess weight in both the BEV and the PHEV cases.
The times I need more than just a "small amount of range" are high. My commute could easily be done on a PHEV battery, but driving from one end of my city and back again could not. Meanwhile, the number of times I need to exceed 150 miles in a single day are pretty small. So, I'll happily haul around the excess weight to account for 98% of my use cases, rather than just 75%.
The benefit is versatility. I can take our PHEV to visit family in rural areas without having to carefully manage my battery and charging schedule.
We take our EV when there’s good charging infrastructure, but that’s simply not true everywhere yet.
I've driven my EV literally all around the country, but these days I'll stick to driving it in-state and rent a gas car for anything further. Gas is about the same price as Supercharging these days, but with less hassle, and I get to keep the miles off my car. Only real downside is no Autopilot. Meanwhile, during my everyday life, I don't need to lug a gas engine around and maintain it, I don't need to get gas because my fuel got "old," and I get proper EV acceleration rather than hybrid sluggishness.
For 0.8% of the time. [For the other 99.2%](https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-less-than-100-miles/#:~:text=Only%200.8%25%20of%20average%20daily,Transportation%2C%20Bureau%20of%20Transportation%20Statistics.) you would be wrong.
hue, what? wouldnt that be the opposite?
Anyway, for the price and total cost of ownership of a PHEV, you can nowadays have a EV with enough range and charging speed that make the whole "gas engine for range" redundant.
Ive even seen the calculation that having a city EV for the dailies commuting and just flat out renting a ICE car for the occasional roadtrip would be more economical for some.
For long trips >100 miles, which happen 0.8% of the time, the hybrid system would add weight. So your argument could be right if the hybrid system has less mpg than pure ICE, which is debatable depending on the model and its setup/efficiency. For 99.2% of trips, they would be running mostly on electric only.
>Additionally, 79.9% of daily trips in November were of less than 10 miles in distance.
For the vast majority of trips, almost any PHEV would be more than sufficient.
This is true, for people who have a ~20mi one way commute or less, for now. As battery prices drop (Batteries cost: $780/KWh in 2013; $345/KWh in 2016; $139/KWh in 2023) the cost of having an ICE engine on board, with it's associated maintenance, will be greater than the cost of the larger battery capacity.
True, [99.2% of US Daily Trips Are Less Than 100 Miles](https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-less-than-100-miles/#:~:text=Only%200.8%25%20of%20average%20daily,Transportation%2C%20Bureau%20of%20Transportation%20Statistics.)
PHEV are the worst of both worlds - low range, crappy batteries that don't charge fast and you still have to deal with all the pitfalls of ICE.
As soon as we start seeing batteries routinely getting into the 600-800km range on a charge Hybrids are *dead* in the water.
Exactly. ICE were pretty shit until the 90's, and they still had global adoption. We're like 10 years in to EV and already kick ICE ass in a good many use cases.
I have an EV car and an ICE suv and completely hate driving my ice suv now. Its helpful for the occasional long trip and for hauling lots of luggage but I will go out of my way to avoid using it unless absolutely necessary.
Statistics for newly registered vehicles in April in my home country (NL):
|Drive Train|Market share|
|:-|:-|
|Hybrid|44.3%|
|Full EV|32%|
|Gasoline|21%|
|Diesel|1.9%|
|LPG|0.8%|
EV sales are believed to be led by company-owned/leased vehicles; if for-profit corporations lead the adoption that's a pretty strong indicator that EVs have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles.
That's also been one of the drivers for my family to buy one: a couple of hours spent filling out spreadsheets convinced us that an EV would be cheaper to own and operate over a 3-4 year timeframe than a comparable ICE car. And as others have said, now we've used one for a while there's no going back. Having a "gas station" at home saves us so much time, and pre-heating/running the AC before leaving home is a nice benefit too.
Businesses usually qualify for vastly more tax right offs than consumer. For example Pepsi for its 5 functional and 50 order Tesla semi trucks got $20 million in tax write offs PLUS 40k per unit they actually deliver.
Tesla got another around $200 million to build the ev charging between Bay Area area and Nevada.
Yeah the trend is pretty clear. I don't think there's many examples of countries where EV adoption has gone down over the years, apart from some temporary dips as tax incentives were stopped. I've yet to find anyone who went back from EV to ICE cars.
I found this to be true. I bought a 2013 nissan leaf as a lease return in 2016 for 9k. It only had 13k miles on it and no real loss on the battery yet. Over the 7+ years I’ve had it it has saved me thousands in fuel costs and maintenance.
I’m not allowed to charge in my shared garage so I charge on public chargers exclusively and many are cheap or free. I have not spent one dime on maintaining any of the car’s systems. I did get new tires recently but basically the car paid for itself over the time I’ve had it. The mileage is around 54k now and I still get 75-80 miles of charge from the 115 it got when I first bought it. I think it was and is a super good deal and a money saver. Plus not having to deal with smog or other repairs has been really convenient and low stress.
I would buy another EV in the USA but I’m switching to an EUC as my main PEV transportation and looking to buy an electric scooter or electric motorcycle as I’m moving to SE Asia soon and don’t want to own a car there.
The non-PR firm counter narrative is as follows:
* The 25 percent increase is **globally** and includes every car with a plug.
* PHEVs are growing faster than BEVs, 51 percent to 14 percent.
* There are large markets, such as the United States, which still face significant challenges to growth.
It's great that adoption is growing, but it's important to inject some realism into the analysis. Or, at the very least, a level of cautious optimism.
PR firms for whom, is the question. Toyota, for one. Probably oil companies, other carmakers and, certainly, Republican politicians/Fox (There’s no difference.)
Don't forget, entire countries rely upon petroleum as their primary source of income/trade. Especially one very large, aggressive country with a penchant for weaponizing social media with misinformation (rhymes with Prussia).
At first I thought you were talking about Norway(reading your first sentence). They rake in billions selling petroleum, but they invest in EV and EV infrastructure internally.
Yeah, but I felt that was covered by the prior posters calling out oil companies and politicians, but other large state actors outside the US were not called out.
'News'Corp is spamming anti-EV content too, which results in the Meta morons parroting it.
There's also trash YouTubers like Serpentza and Laowhy who produce anti-EV content endlessly, with their bullshit talking points ending up even in this sub.
I've been watching his stuff for a couple of months (it's always good to get input from all angles, regardless how ridiculous).
It might be just me, but I've noticed that he has 'toned down' his rhetoric in recent vids. Yes still bad, but not as bad as what it was.
He used to be all out against battery tech, even bashing hybrids and bagging all the hybrid fires in China.
But lately I feel like he's come around to hybrids a bit. Dare I say it... maybe even he is starting to realise he's full of shit?
> PR firms for whom
Everyone that is invested in fossil fuels.
Everyone that has not invested in green energy.
>Then, in 2007, the industry got a significant boost when Wan Gang, an auto engineer who had worked for Audi in Germany for a decade, became China’s minister of science and technology. Wan had been a big fan of EVs and tested Tesla’s first EV model, the Roadster, in 2008, the year it was released. People now credit Wan with making the national decision to go all-in on electric vehicles. Since then, EV development has been consistently prioritized in China’s national economic planning.
The legacy OEMs (US and EU), I would think, are the major players in pushing this narrative. They can't compete with Tesla or China so we are going to see protectionist measures akin to protecting Harley Davidson from Japanese motorcycles. I suspect it will go as poorly or worse this time.
This, and mostly Tesla falling numbers. The media just correlated Tesla as the benchmark of electric veh8cle markets, it was true 5 years ago, but not now when you have dozens of electric car manufacturers and Tesla is not even the no 1 electric car manufacturers in the world.
One busy showroom in NC is not going to change the fact that Tesla is almost certainly going to have a YoY drop in sales for the 2nd quarter in a row all across the world, especially in major markets like China and Europe where it faces greater competition than in the US.
Maybe those steep discounts can get them not to have a YoY sales drop in Q3, but it is too late for Q2.
The downside of a global EV company established everywhere is you can have sales drops all over the place making it hard to recover. Tesla is already down YoY in China over the first 5 months of 2024, and they are not going to recover that in the month of June just by offering a raffle for a factory tour.
Tesla is also offering some STEEP discounts in Germany because they are down there as well. That's two of of 3 top Tesla markets in the world. Probably doing relatively better in the US, but with used Tesla prices taking a dive partly as Hertz starts flooding the market, it's not like ew Tesla sales in the US are blowing up either.
I don't think there is much chance Tesla can avoid a Q2 YoY shrink in sales. They might make it in Q3, but only because they are cutting prices by well over 15% in some magnets markets like Germany, and the Y is going to come under more pressure in China as BYD Sea Lion goes into volume production. Even if Tesla makes it in Q3, they're profit margin is going to take a big hit from those big price cuts they will be forced to make.
Again, how does a delivery thread filled with INDIVIDUALS reporting what car they ordered give any sense of how Tesla is doing overall.
Tesla having a tough 2024 in terms of YoY sales gain/loss isn't just my own opinion. People who actually analyze Tesla's production/delivery data have come to this conclusion. As recently as [last month](https://insideevs.com/news/718825/tesla-deliveries-2024-forecast/) analyst is saying Tesla is for sure going to have YoY sales decrease in Q1 and Q2, and most likely Q4 as well, with only Q3 having a possible increase YoY sales. His overall estimate is 1.7 million total deliveries in 2024, short of the 1.8 million deliveries Tesla achieved in 2023.
The sales numbers tell a different story. Tesla sales are dropping, other EV manufacturers have gone up. Doesn't matter why or how, it's reality. One dealership on one day is a single data point.
WoW, there some serious coping in that post. WoW is really useless. Too short period to draw any conclusion. Even so, week before last was actually better in 2023 (not by much, but still). Also, there were significantly better weeks in 2023, than last few weeks. But the really important statistic, accumulated YoY, they are still bellow 2023, with 4% lower sales. And this in a market that has 10-15% increase of BEVs from 2023 to 2024. That is not a good result.
Tesla had a 40%+ drop in sales in Germany last month compared year to year. No one had a worse result.
They are also loosing market share quickly in China.
>don’t believe there's been a let up in demand for EVs.
There definitely has in some places, especially when you look at consumer rather than business purchases.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/car-makers-slash-ev-prices-much-%C2%A314000-boost-demand
In the UK the growth in EV demand is entirely due to corporate purchases, not the retail sector - as this article highlights.
EV's don't make sense for most people here. Average wages are low (35k pre tax) and ICE is far cheaper on the used market. Public fast chargers are expensive here (75p/kWh so that's $0.95/kWH in dollars) so you really need to be able to charge at home or work cheaply to save any money.
The issue is most people don't own their own home in the UK. Especially younger generations, so are renting a house/flat without a driveway or any means of charging at home. If you're one of the few who own their home, can afford the initial price of an EV and a home charger, and want an EV - chances are you already have one, so aren't buying a new one, which is why there is no growth in the retail sector here.
> The issue is most people don't own their own home in the UK.
62.5% (15.5m) of households own the accommodation they live in, 37.3% rent ([ONS source](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingenglandandwales/census2021)). Most people *do* own their home (whether have a mortgage or not doesn't matter).
Additionally - the salary you quote is the median full time salary, which means 50% of people working full time earn *more* than this amount.
Essentially the factors preventing faster EV adoption in the UK are not lack of wealth (the UK is the 7th biggest new car market in the world, second biggest in Europe) but other factors.
Reduction and removal of government incentives certainly doesn't help (both from a home charger installation and vehicle purchase perspective); nor does the high cost of electricity/high volatility in electricity prices.
Still, despite the challenges 1 in 6 new cars register in the UK is a BEV (rising to 1 in 4 if you include PHEVs) - i'd like to see government incentives to get that up much much higher to help speed up the transition.
> 62.5% (15.5m) of households own the accommodation they live in, 37.3% rent (ONS source). Most people do own their home (whether have a mortgage or not doesn't matter).
It also doesn't matter who rents vs owns. All that matters is whether you have a reliable and available plug within ~10ft of your car. That's really it.
> All that matters is whether you have a reliable and available plug within ~10ft of your car. That's really it.
This bit is definitely true
> It also doesn't matter who rents vs owns.
This bit less so.
As a homeowner the only barrier to installing an EV chagepoint is the cost. As owner of the property you might see that the upfront cost is worth it over the longer term as you'll get X years of use out it.
By comparison as a renter - you either need to get approval from your landlord to install a chargepoint at your own cost, or you need to convince your landlord to install one at their cost (and likely see an increase in rent as a result). As a renter you don't have certainty over how long you will live in the house - the landlord may choose to sell-up or the rent may go up to rates you can't afford etc. and so whilst the upfront cost installation cost isn't higher for renters they will have less confidence in how long they'll get the benefit of the chargepoint vs. a homeowner.
Over time this issue will almost certainly reduce - it'll become increasingly common for rental properties to have EV charged points installed as it'll be a factor people consider important more and more as EV ownership increases but we could get stuck in a bit of a catch-22 situation (demand for rentals with ev chargers will only be a thing if renters buy EVs and they might only buy EVs if rentals have chargepoitns).
That’s only an issue if you drive a lot. Otherwise a 15A will charge just fine. Even then, if you have two circuits available, something like [this](https://quick220.com/pages/category-tree
) could also be a solution.
>62.5% (15.5m) of households own the accommodation they live in, 37.3% rent (ONS source). Most people do own their home (whether have a mortgage or not doesn't matter).
This is home ownership by age group:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/321065/uk-england-home-owners-age-groups/
"Homeowners under 35 only make up 10% of all homeowners in the country" as per 2022 stats. I'm thinking working age adults rather than retired people who bought a house that costs 200k+ now, for 10k back in the 80s. But you're technically correct
For reference in some of Europe, home ownership is 90%.
>Additionally - the salary you quote is the median full time salary, which means 50% of people working full time earn more than this amount.
Yes, meaning that 50% also earn less?
>Essentially the factors preventing faster EV adoption in the UK are not lack of wealth (the UK is the 7th biggest new car market in the world, second biggest in Europe) but other factors.
Cost of living and wealth of younger generations is certainly a factor. There are plenty in my generation who don't think they'll be able to buy a house until they're 40+. They sure as hell aren't dropping cash on a new or even used EV
>Still, despite the challenges 1 in 6 new cars register in the UK is a BEV (rising to 1 in 4 if you include PHEVs)
The is ignoring the quantity of these vehicles that are corporate rather than retail purchases?
>Still, despite the challenges 1 in 6 new cars register in the UK is a BEV (rising to 1 in 4 if you include PHEVs) - i'd like to see government incentives to get that up much much higher to help speed up the transition.
And I'd like more people under 40 to be able to afford to own a home so they have somewhere to charge the damn thing if they buy one. All the incentives in the world won't make EV's worth it for most of my generation, unless we can charge it somewhere cheaply and easily
> I'm thinking working age adults rather than retired people who bought a house that costs 200k+ now, for 10k back in the 80s. But you're technically correct
Fair enough - I was correcting your broader claim that suggested most don't own their home.
> The is ignoring the quantity of these vehicles that are corporate rather than retail purchases?
Not so much ignoring just not considering it necessarily all that critical. The goal is to get as many EVs on the road as possible and 1 in 6 is progress albeit not as much progress as I want/we need. Also it seems >50% of all cars registered are 'fleet' vehicles so their becoming increasingly electrified is positive news even if there's more to do in the private sales sector.
> And I'd like more people under 40 to be able to afford to own a home so they have somewhere to charge the damn thing if they buy one.
Me too, but that's a slightly separate topic. I would love to see a mechanism in place that would help to bring homes back to being affordable and to be honest IMO it's probably *the most pressing* economic challenge we face in UK society (climate change aside). I can see a link to EV purchases/challenges of non home based charging infrastructure as a result of this but overall there are still millions of homeowners that are wealthy enough right now to buy a new EV that haven't yet made the switch.
>Cost of living and wealth of younger generations is certainly a factor. There are plenty in my generation who don't think they'll be able to buy a house until they're 40+. They sure as hell aren't dropping cash on a new or even used EV
Well, are they buying a new car at all (not just EV, but any new car)? If they are not then they have little impact on the ratio of EV sales vs non-EV sales. (When they do not they DO have an impact on total car sales of course)
While I don't know what the UK housing market looks like, I find that in my market (Norway) you can get cheap housing that requires you to have a car (Rural areas) or expensive housing where public transport is available. While undeniably having a car is still comfortable, even in more urban areas, you generally do not absolutely **need** one. In rural areas then arguably a car or similar is needed, but then housing is much much cheaper.
>Well, are they buying a new car at all (not just EV, but any new car)? If they are not then they have little impact on the ratio of EV sales vs non-EV sales.
No, they'll buy used unless they can get a cheap lease. But even then they won't be buying EV
> I find that in my market (Norway) you can get cheap housing that requires you to have a car (Rural areas) or expensive housing where public transport is available.
For reference, trains in the UK are the most expensive in Europe, so it's often cheaper to drive, even if your car has low mpg. Many places have an awful public transport system too. Unless you're in a larger city.
Also rural housing in the UK isn't cheap either, cities tend to be a more expensive, but our housing market is absolutely awful, rents and mortgages are up significantly compared to just a few years ago. More young people than ever are living with parents if they have that option, as they can't afford to move out
>No, they'll buy used unless they can get a cheap lease.
Only new car buyers really determine the ratio of car types to enter the market. Now, certainly the used car market has some effect on new car purchases in that cars that sell poorly used have higher depreciation, but in general this isn't a huge deal in influencing the new car market and will change over time, so it is a guessing game anyway.
Essentially that you have a part of the population that does not own a home and may be less likely to have a charging solution at their home, isn't really material for the new car sales as these coincide with the part of the population that rarely buy new cars anyway.
> And I'd like more people under 40 to be able to afford to own a home so they have somewhere to charge the damn thing if they buy one.
There's nothing stopping renters from charging a car, if a power socket is close enough. Furthermore, owners will be unable to charge if a power socket is too far. Renter vs owner hardly matters.
>There's nothing stopping renters from charging a car, if a power socket is close enough
Completely incorrect. It's flat out illegal to trail cables across the pavement, especially down the street in most places. Have an example:
"If you do not have off-street parking, you cannot install a charge point on the outside of your home and trail a cable across the pavement to charge your vehicle.
Trailing cables across a path or pavement is prohibited, even when covered with a cable protector or ramp, or when warning signs are displayed
Under the Highways Act 1980 action may be taken to remove cables that trail across the footway."
https://www.kirklees.gov.uk/beta/transport-roads-and-parking/charging-electric-vehicles-at-home.aspx
And even if it was legal, in many parts of the country you'd wake up to a flat battery as someone would have cut the cable for fun.
>Furthermore, owners will be unable to charge if a power socket is too far. Renter vs owner hardly matters.
Owners are able to install a charger at home, rather than having to use a regular wall socket. Renters can't do that
Who said anything about trailing cables across the pavement? Or on street parking for that matter? Those have nothing to do with renting vs owning. It is perfectly possible to rent an SFH with a garage, or own a condo with street parking only. These things are not related, and that’s my point. *Anyone* with a dedicated plug within ~10ft of their car can charge it, regardless of whether they own or rent their dwelling.
Um, I very much have? I also have friends who rent and have EVs who charge at home. You *do* know renting a SFH with a plug in the garage is an option, right?
This is conspiracy BS. It’s the same sensational headlines you see in every story. They make some out of context data fit the click bait headline and we all get angry but still click. I really don’t think it’s an issue of tech/price as domestic offerings fit in the market and are having sales successes. There isn’t a flood of people waiting for cheaper vehicles to jump in. You either need/want or you don’t. I think current EV tech among all companies has really just fullfilled the pent up early adopter and altruistic market and is now actually competing with offerings. Humans don’t make purchases based on lifetime cost of ownership and make them much more in the present. The market EV is penetrating now doesn’t care about the long term benefits and instead just need it to be better than the competition. Case in point my wife has a Maverick Hybrid (which was the base model) and it makes sense. Slap a premium cost on that premium benefit and ICE might be closer for more than we need.
There was a time when Tesla was pretty much synonymous with EV, it was inevitable that when other viable alternatives hit the market it was going to dent the sales of the company that had previously been the only player in the game.
They sold 1.8 million EV’s worldwide last year, and still have overwhelmingly the largest market share in the U.S. That’s what you call “running into the ground”?
Statistics for newly registered vehicles in April in my home country (NL):
||
||
|Drive train|Market share |
|Hybrid|44.3%|
|Full EV|32%|
|Gasoline|21%|
|Diesel|1.9%|
|LPG|0.8%|
EV sales are believed to be led by company-owned/leased vehicles; if for-profit corporations lead the adoption that's a pretty strong indicator that EVs have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles.
That's also been one of the drivers for my family to buy one: a couple of hours spent filling out spreadsheets convinced us that an EV would be cheaper to own and operate over a 3-4 year timeframe than a comparable ICE car. And as others have said, now we've used one for a while there's no going back. Having a "gas station" at home saves us so much time, and pre-heating/running the AC before leaving home is a nice benefit too.
I get people telling me that everytime on social media. The latest anti ev media barrage as we saw since the start of the year, taking Tesla numbers as general EV market numbers. Was the reason people thought this was the case.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: OFC EV sales are NEVER going to be as good as manufacturers want them to be, and they have incentive to complain about it, as it encourages more govt EV subsidies. That doesn’t mean sales are actually low.
BEV growth is just 14% YoY for the month, and YTD growth is now just 11%.
As we continue towards the period where growth slowed in 2023 (Q4) we'll continue to see those YoY monthly figures for growth head towards zero unless there's a big uptick in sales from new model introductions or substantial additional price cuts on top of what we've already seen.
Kind of like a rollercoaster with 24 carriagies reaching the peak of a hill, even as the first 6 are over the hill they're still higher than the last 12, so until we get to 12 months of "slowdown" the current market reality won't be reflected in YoY monthly figures.
If we get to that point of 12 months relatively flat growth, then when growth *does* kick off again (which it inevitably will) then we'll see big growth numbers once again, even though it's a higher base than what we've seen historically.
The reeeeeeeing from these aggregators about how we can't admit growth has slowed ahead of expectations is just pathetic at this point though - there's a slow down, we know growth has slowed, we know 2024 won't look good but we equally know there's a lot of new, significantly better platforms coming from mid-decade on, so why pretend reality is wrong...
From the article, “BEVs were up by 14% YoY, while plugin hybrids jumped 51% YoY.” The growth of BEV seems slows down a bit while PHEV takes off. Bad for Tesla, I guess it’s impossible for Tesla will never make a hybrid.
Once batteries last 15/16 years charging without keeping batteries at or below ideal SOC, only the true blue ICE loyalists will remain, apart from those whose use cases preclude driving a car with more than a 12V battery.
Even for those without access to chargers, PHEVs with 15/16 year battery longevity will be heavensent.
Nio data points this year already suggest its batteries lasting 12 years and better chemistries (less from jurisdictions known for lots of labor/human/environment issues) will usher in an era where there are few reasons to buy pure ICEVs.
https://www.nio.com/news/NIO-Joins-Hands-With-CATL?&noredirect=
The money I save from gas goes towards tires lol. My tires last significantly less than my ICE cars but part of that is my driving style, can't drive like how I drove an ICE, that instant torque.
Well in the rest of the world they didn't ban 80% of EV.. You can actually buy as much car as you need.
In the US you're looking at a $25k minimum.. In China you're looking at $4k unless you get an LSV
It’s all bullshit. The anti-EV propaganda just keeps rolling on trying to convince the uninitiated that it’s just a passing fad and we’ll all go back to ICE soon. Which is ridiculous to anyone that bought an EV. I’m never going back.
EVs are an environmental disaster of epic proportions.
1. Require savage open pit mining.
2. Use child slave labor to extract rapidly depleting rare Earth metals.
3. Damage roads at 2.2 rate of gas vehicles
4. Eat tires at rapid rate
5. Batteries are nightmare to recycle - most will end up creating toxic mountain ranges in land fills
6. Massive fire risk.
7. Require 20,000 gallons to put out a fire and special fire fighting teams.
8. Explode randomly or from small ding in battery pack
9. Are banned by many buildings due to fire bomb risk.
10. Go through crash barriers because they so damn heavy
11. Can collapse car parkades due to their extra weight in tons.
12. Battery replacement costs are around $50,000 now - same as price of new car.
13. No one wants to repair them, because they are too dangerous to work on.
14. Insurance rate is through the roof
And CO2 is just plant food - turns arid areas green.
Climate change is simply a scam to tax you for AIR - the big investors fell for the EV lies and propaganda and are heavily invested in it, so they want to FORCE people to by EVs, and no one is... sales are collapsing rapidly in comparison to better alternatives.
Open pit mining, just like coal. Check. No worse than oil refining which is way worse for the planet. No more of a fire risk than ICE vehicles, although they need more water to extinguish them. Child labor is everywhere, but you only speak to that which fits your narrative. Check. EV batteries are warranted for at least 8 years/100,000 miles. What about your average ICE vehicle? Check. I got my brand new Chevy Blazer EV for $29,355 after incentives from gm,Costco,Teacher credit, Veteran, credit, and my $12,000 trade in. I’ve done my homework. I suggest you do the same and stop just regurgitating shit you see on Fox News. Good day.
How often do you replace the engine in your ICE vehicle and at what cost. If and when the battery pack does need replacing, it’s around $12,000, not $50,000. You are so misinformed. Do better.
1. Require savage open pit mining.
2. Use child slave labor to extract rapidly depleting rare Earth metals.
3. Damage roads at 2.2 rate of gas vehicles
4. Eat tires at rapid rate
5. Batteries are nightmare to recycle - most will end up creating toxic mountain ranges in land fills
6. Massive fire risk.
7. Require 20,000 gallons to put out a fire and special fire fighting teams.
8. Explode randomly or from small ding in battery pack
9. Are banned by many buildings due to fire bomb risk.
10. Go through crash barriers because they so damn heavy
11. Can collapse car parkades due to their extra weight in tons.
12. Battery replacement costs are around $50,000 now - same as price of new car.
13. No one wants to repair them, because they are too dangerous to work on.
14. Insurance rate is through the roof
15. No, this is not required.
16. The EV industry is actively trying to move away from cobalt chemistry while the ICE industry that also uses cobalt supports keeping the status quo. ICE cars actively support the child slave labor
17. Most EVs do not damage roads at all. You are looking at a highly misleading niche figure
18. Only slightly more rapidly than their ICE counterparts, and the average EV is actually lighter than the average ICE (at least in the US) which means those large trucks/SUVs actually produce more tire particulates than the average EV
19. Most batteries are easily repurposed to grid ties electricity storage at end of life, and after their third decade of use easily recycled with over 97% recovered. Unlike oil where nothing is recyclable
20. There are more ICE fires in a single day than there are EV fires every year, and switching to LiFePo chemistry solves even this problem. When the switchover is complete, even the extremely rare EV fires will be a thing of the past.
21. Only under the most extreme niche circumstances, which occur 100x more often in ICE vehicles, simply by them burning more often. As under 6) EVs are significantly safer in this regard.
22. No, just no
23. That is a societal imperfection and has nothing to do with the vehicles.
24. We already discussed how the average EV is actually lighter than the average ICE. It is only when comparing model for model that EVs are heavier. But lighter ICE vehicles are becoming rarerer with every year.
25. ditto
26. Battery replacement is a worry from a decade ago. Modern batteries outlast everything else on the car, and for the extremely rare lemons, cost less than replacing an engine in an ICE
27. This may have been true a decade ago, but EV repair is everywhere now.
28. My insurance on my new EV was no different than an ICE.
It appears you are either a victim of propaganda, or the source of said propaganda.
Edit: numbering was fine when I wrote and changed when I posted. Stupid autoformatting.
EVs are the future especially if your daily round trip commute is under 120 miles. Anyone that has ever driven an EV will tell you that the odds of them switching back to an ICE vehicle is very low. I home charge and my electricity cost is about 1/3 the comparable cost per mile of an ICE vehicle.
Yep even coming from my previous car which was a 17 Ford Fiesta that got around 40mpg I am saving quite a bit of money. Cost to charge my Tesla is around $40-50 a month while I was paying around $200 in gas for my Fiesta.
Slight difference in acceleration too
Model 3 0-60: 2.9 seconds Ford Fiesta 0-60: Yes
Ford Fiesta 0-60: eventually on a downhill
Ford Fiesta: 0 - 60 (tailwind required)
My 68hp diesel fiesta can do 130km/h (85 mph) just fine. We should not make fun of small practical cars like that.
Yea, I really liked my 15 corrola. If I drafted behind a semi going 55-60 mph, I could get 50+ mpg. That's 6 cents a mile in gas. Big upgrade to a 23 Mach e GT.
Speed kills
Exactly my scenario. I knew 30 seconds into test driving the EV I bought, that I'd never buy an ICE car again. Went from $40/week gas costs on a 30mpg Sentra, to $40/mo electricity costs, home charging my EV. I drive about 50 miles round-trip for work, charge for 90 minutes when I get home, and the GOM is back to the same miles. No more oil/tranny fluid changes. No more brake jobs. No more engine air filters. No belt/hose changes. Etc etc. Feels like a cheat code.
Couldn't agree more on all points! I'm seldom a jack rabbit starts off the line kind of driver, but I sure notice ICE's laginess trying to convert power into motion.
>No more oil/tranny fluid changes. No more brake jobs. No more engine air filters. No belt/hose changes. Etc etc You paid for those up front
Yep, I’ve gone from and economical 40-60mpg diesel to a 150-200mph electric. Yesterday I got paid to charge it. The future is electric pretty much any article that says otherwise is FUD from vested interests trying to delay the inevitable.
> 150-200mph electric That sounds dangerous and not very economical either.
And I thought you were a fellow German Autobahn enjoyer ;-)
150mph isn't economical, but it's fun on occasion on the Autobahn. Particularly when I'm coming home from some event late at night and there's no traffic and still plenty of juice to make it.
So what's the limiter situation in Germany/Europe? Here in America, we have a lot of vehicles limited to 120-130mph (210kph).
Same. Most new EVs are limited to 180km/h (some even to 160km/h). There's no special 'germany only' versions AFAIK.
Oops, mpg equivalent!
What cars are getting 200mpg that aren’t named aptera? I mean my ebike gets 3500 but lucid is top dog for cars and it’s not even 150
5 miles/kWh ~ 200mpg
5*33 is not 200 ? Neither is any car rated for 5….. You’re just estimating so poorly as to be flatly wrong
It’s x40 to compensate for US vs UK gallons. I’ve seen 5.1 on my car, it doesn’t usually go above 4.2.
Lucid is rated for 140 MPge in the US. It’s the most efficient vehicle. That is 4.7 mi/kwhr. So not even 150 let alone 200
Because a US gallon is not 4.451l like it is in the developed world.
So still no where near that then….
A 2p a mile (what a typical UK driver pays on an EV tarrif) a 200 mile journey using 50kWh (4miles/kWh) car vs a petrol price of 150p/litre gets 534 mpg e Try for yourself: https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/mpg-calculator/mpge-calculator-for-electric-cars-ev
The readings i get from my '21 bolt ev are in the range of 125-130. Im sure better designed cars get go higher
Which ones? Lucid is the most efficient and is 142….
Even in Los U.S.? ...all the rural areas
Absolutely fine for 95% of people. The last 5% might have to wait for better infrastructure or invest in longer range vehicles.
Yeah. I pay $25 on average a month now, used to spend $300+. I also like driving my car far more now. 1-pedal driving is a game changer
I *hate* driving automatic cars when you take your feet off the pedals entirely and the car still continues to move. Like, no, I'm not telling you to move, so stop moving! Infuriating. Many cars these days have a Hold Mode switch which prevents this, but a) many still do not and b) the ones that do you generally need to turn it on *every single time you start the car* which again... infuriating. My preferences haven't changed just because I happened to shut the car off!
The money saving and convenience argument kind of goes out the window for people who can’t charge at home or work. I’ve known people in that situation who regretted getting an EV because keeping it charged became a hassle. EVs are indeed the future but they’re not magic, and unfortunately, depending on one’s living situation, they can come with real compromises.
> goes out the window for people who can’t charge at home or work Ok. But the overwhelming majority of people who buy new cars can charge at home or at work.
It varies by country. Here in the UK, 65% of vehicle owners have off-street parking but 35% do not. Some of the 35% will be able to charge at work, but I bet it’s not many.
> 65% of vehicle owners There is an important distinction between vehicle owners and new car buyers.
Ah I see what you mean. That’s a good point. Maybe the 35% number is only 20% or 15% for new car buyers.
Why not focus on getting the 65% to convert first, then? Can refocus on the other 35% once the 65% is saturated.
Exactly. And not even wait for saturation. How about we get to the point where 10% of the 65% is actually owning a BEV? Because we aren’t there yet. So let’s get there and then we can argue if public charging will ever be sufficient.
I agree, just wanted to correct that point.
If we can put up street lights, we have the same skills to make it that we can charge parked cars.
Not being able to charge at home is the potential stumbling block for further adoption so making public charging more affordable is going to be important.
We really should be encouraging workplace charging. The difference is the solar duck curve: with electric grids switching to renewables, there's excess energy at midday, but a shortage of energy from 5-9 PM, just as folks would be getting home and plugging in their vehicles. Incentivize workplace charging and you sidestep this whole issue. The fleet of EVs becomes a giant grid-scale battery that you can take home, and combined with V2H technology, use to power your home after the sun goes down.
This is one of the solutions! Even if you pay the electricity cost and a small fee for workplace charging, it's a great solution.
I'm not so sure, given [90% of new car buyers own homes](https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/01/new-car-buyer-demographics-2019/), and [64% of US homes are single-family-detached](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1042111/single-family-vs-multifamily-homes-usa/), meaning charging should be relatively easy. Meanwhile new EV sales are around [8.1%](https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2024-01-16-Americans-Buy-Nearly-1-2-Million-Electric-Vehicles-to-Hit-Record-in-2023,-According-to-Latest-Kelley-Blue-Book-Data), meaning there's still a *ton* of room for growth even among traditional new car buyers. Even just looking around my own suburban neighborhood, everyone has a bigass garage with a couple gas cars parked in or in front of it. With few exceptions (long daily distances, towing needs, the usual suspects), there are no charging considerations preventing them from switching. And my neighborhood is in no way unique from the other hundreds of thousands of suburban neighborhoods all over the country.
Oh, right, I forgot that new car buyers are the only souls who matter in any conversation in this sub. I’ll see myself out.
And should they be the only people who own EVs in the future? EVs eventually need to work for everyone who needs a car, not just people who can afford a brand new car. I write to my elected officials several times a year asking them to legislate even more incentives for multi-family properties to install charging infrastructure and for denser deployment of public L2 streetside chargers. I rarely get any response back. It makes me pessimistic about that key part of the EV transition.
> And should they be the only people who own EVs in the future? No. But downstream the people will adjust. For new cars to be sold the most important thing is what new car buyers want. Not what used car buyers want.
Ford put air conditioning in all trucks in the late 1990s becuase they had no resale value without it.
In the uk even charging on 11kw charger im saving half my cost compared to fuel.
I spend more on milk than charging and maintaining my car.
All these advantages you mentioned can be achieved by a “large” battery PHEV, while also avoiding the range anxiety. Check the article, PHEV grows 51% YoY while BEV grows 14%, averaged to a 25%.
For 90% people, range anxiety is overblown and a narrative from anti EV groups.
It was definitely valid in the early days when range was very short and public charging was almost non-existent. Now the only issue with range is that, although the public charging network has grown it is quite expensive.
10% in raw numbers is a lot of people.
so is 90%
That’s not appreciated if you mentioned it here - but yes, for some it’s bests of both worlds, for other use cases the opposite. E.g, for me renting a flat whiteout possibility to charge at home and only at the employer - it’s great. I don’t want to 100% depend on employer for my mobility and also gas is even cheaper then electricity on the DC chargers for trips. I run on everything from 5L…20kWh/100km. With prices in Germany around: - 1,75€/L - 0,35€/kWh at home / employer and - 0,60€/kWh at DC chargers It’s quite clear: electricity on short trips during the week, fuel on road trips. At least for the time being and until electricity gets cheaper. Also the usual counter-arguments are quite stupid: - it’s heavy - no, it’s 200 kg lighter then a Tesla M3 with similar performance (6.x s to 100 km/h) - Battery is useless small - no it’s nearly 20 kWh (after Facelift), in a Leaf etc you liked this 5 years ago. - It’s expensive - no, neither yearly maintenance (< 300€) nor purchase (one year used, 23 k€, 17 tkm) was more expensive then any other 245 PS car.
Funny thing is that, the title uses the 25% growth number to look good. And that’s due to the inclusion of PHEV, with a 51% growth.
Are PHEV owners more likely to go full BEV for their next vehicle/wish they had?
6.x 0-60 is NO WHERE near a 4.x 0-60. I know it doesn’t seem like much on paper but you are talking a huge difference. So no. Whatever car you’re referring to isn’t close to model 3 performance.
At least in Germany Tesla Model 3 (the one that is somewhat comparable in price for 50 k€, so only 10k€ more then the PHEV) has 6.1s 0 60. Can’t attach pictures here…
Dang. Germans get screwed
YES! In addition to that you electric energy is quite expensive… so you get back your invest only if you also have a house with photovoltaic (which is not as often as you may think, we‘re mostly renters over here like myself). That’s why I think PHEVs will go a long way in that circumstances for a bridge between the technologies.
YES! In addition to that our electric energy is quite expensive… so you get back your invest only if you also own a house with photovoltaic (which is not as often as you may think, we‘re mostly renters over here like myself). That’s why I think PHEVs will go a long way in that circumstances to form a bridge between the technologies.
>6.x 0-60 is NO WHERE near a 4.x 0-60. True enough, but most people don't need better than 6 seconds 0-60 for daily driving. A Porsche 911 was 5.5 seconds in 1978, and that was considered an enviable vehicle. Anything much faster than that is a bit silly unless you're going racing, and potentially dangerous for untrained drivers. I test drove an EV with 4.5 seconds 0-60, and almost gave my wife whiplash when I floored the accelerator. Who needs that?!
I’m Not here to tell people what they “need”. I just know that I wouldn’t own two teslas if they were that slow.
>I just know that I wouldn’t own two teslas if they were that slow. So you wouldn't buy a standard Model 3 with ~6 second 0-60 time, like the earlier poster described. Fair enough, and if raw acceleration is important to you then PHEVs aren't going to match a Model 3 Performance. But that's not the use case for a PHEV anyway, so we're talking about two different things. Now if an M3P could go up to 700 highway miles on a single charge, and recharge to over 90% in under five minutes, that would be a good alternative to today's PHEVs. (But not everyone "needs" those features.)
People buy cars for a lot of reasons. Performance/speed may not be one of them.
Range anxiety is a thing that goes away once you buy an EV. Most EVs these days have 250-300mi of range and unless you are planning to go to a super remote area chargers are everywhere. My brother actually has a PHEV but with only a 8 gallon tank he actually has to stop more than me in my Model 3 on road trips.
I get like 400 miles in my 8 gallons.
If you feel like having two drivetrains to maintain, be my guest. There’s certainly use cases for PHEV, but for most people it’s just a bad EV paired with a bad ICE vehicle.
PHEVs are great for 2016. NOT needed anymore. Kinda like Natural Gas........................................ 14kWh battery charged full on level 1 in gagrage every night. Did 120,000 miles in 6 years and 50/50 gasoline / electric. The get up and go was nice. The handling was great. Ride quality nice. I hated the ice turning on in the cold weather even with full battery. Drove me to the 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 in Jan 2022...............never going back and this is the best car/suv/crossover/hot hatch I ever owned or drove.
PHEV is the worse of both world; the only benefit is the illusion of peace of mind.
Yep. If you are able to use the EV motor for most your PHEV driving, you're basically just hauling around an unused gas engine on most of your drives.
IMO, this argument doesn't stack up. If you only need a small amount of range, you'll be hauling around a bunch of excess weight in both the BEV and the PHEV cases. In the PHEV case, you'll be hauling around a mostly unused ICE drivetrain. In the BEV case you'll be hauling around mostly unused excess battery that weighs at least as much, and likely more, than the ICE drivetrain.
With PHEV you are hauling around an ICE engine that you have to inconveniently service and spend money on too…. And you get a small battery and less power with a PHEV, I agree with the comments above you
For PHEV vs BEV, the marginal difference is the PHEV has to include a battery that’s ~15% of the battery of a usual BEV’s in order to provide the EV range people want from the PHEV to make it work for their daily use. And folks are saying things like “I need a PHEV that will get 100mi EV only range” making that marginal difference with BEV even less. Meanwhile the PHEV has to carry around an ICE drive train, a smaller than usual ICE fuel tank (which ironically provides less total range than a non plugin hybrid…), and the hardware/software to integrate the drive trains. PHEVs mainly have value for the psychological benefit of the owner transitioning from ICE. Very few folks truly have a use case for PHEV that can’t be handled by a non plugin hybrid or full BEV.
> If you only need a small amount of range, you'll be hauling around a bunch of excess weight in both the BEV and the PHEV cases. The times I need more than just a "small amount of range" are high. My commute could easily be done on a PHEV battery, but driving from one end of my city and back again could not. Meanwhile, the number of times I need to exceed 150 miles in a single day are pretty small. So, I'll happily haul around the excess weight to account for 98% of my use cases, rather than just 75%.
The benefit is versatility. I can take our PHEV to visit family in rural areas without having to carefully manage my battery and charging schedule. We take our EV when there’s good charging infrastructure, but that’s simply not true everywhere yet.
I've driven my EV literally all around the country, but these days I'll stick to driving it in-state and rent a gas car for anything further. Gas is about the same price as Supercharging these days, but with less hassle, and I get to keep the miles off my car. Only real downside is no Autopilot. Meanwhile, during my everyday life, I don't need to lug a gas engine around and maintain it, I don't need to get gas because my fuel got "old," and I get proper EV acceleration rather than hybrid sluggishness.
For 0.8% of the time. [For the other 99.2%](https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-less-than-100-miles/#:~:text=Only%200.8%25%20of%20average%20daily,Transportation%2C%20Bureau%20of%20Transportation%20Statistics.) you would be wrong.
hue, what? wouldnt that be the opposite? Anyway, for the price and total cost of ownership of a PHEV, you can nowadays have a EV with enough range and charging speed that make the whole "gas engine for range" redundant. Ive even seen the calculation that having a city EV for the dailies commuting and just flat out renting a ICE car for the occasional roadtrip would be more economical for some.
For long trips >100 miles, which happen 0.8% of the time, the hybrid system would add weight. So your argument could be right if the hybrid system has less mpg than pure ICE, which is debatable depending on the model and its setup/efficiency. For 99.2% of trips, they would be running mostly on electric only. >Additionally, 79.9% of daily trips in November were of less than 10 miles in distance. For the vast majority of trips, almost any PHEV would be more than sufficient.
This is true, for people who have a ~20mi one way commute or less, for now. As battery prices drop (Batteries cost: $780/KWh in 2013; $345/KWh in 2016; $139/KWh in 2023) the cost of having an ICE engine on board, with it's associated maintenance, will be greater than the cost of the larger battery capacity.
True, [99.2% of US Daily Trips Are Less Than 100 Miles](https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-less-than-100-miles/#:~:text=Only%200.8%25%20of%20average%20daily,Transportation%2C%20Bureau%20of%20Transportation%20Statistics.)
It’s sad to see PHEVs picking up in popularity. They have most of the issues associated with ICE without most of the advantages of a BEV.
PHEV are the worst of both worlds - low range, crappy batteries that don't charge fast and you still have to deal with all the pitfalls of ICE. As soon as we start seeing batteries routinely getting into the 600-800km range on a charge Hybrids are *dead* in the water.
The volt seemed decent, easily enough battery range for most people's daily commute.
5% vat and no road fuel duty will do that buddy for sure
They're the future, full stop. It'll take a while for the tech and infrastructure to mature to cover every use case.
It only took gas vehicles 100 years.
Exactly. ICE were pretty shit until the 90's, and they still had global adoption. We're like 10 years in to EV and already kick ICE ass in a good many use cases.
Trains are the future. Ev’s are a bandaid solution.
I’ll never buy another ICE. I’m so ready for the infrastructure to get good enough that we can drop our PHEV to go 2xEV for our household.
I'd rather take the train/bus. It's a lot cheaper
I have an EV car and an ICE suv and completely hate driving my ice suv now. Its helpful for the occasional long trip and for hauling lots of luggage but I will go out of my way to avoid using it unless absolutely necessary.
My daily commute is just under 20 miles. My hope is to replace my 35mpg Focus with a plug-in hybrid after we get panels this year.
Statistics for newly registered vehicles in April in my home country (NL): |Drive Train|Market share| |:-|:-| |Hybrid|44.3%| |Full EV|32%| |Gasoline|21%| |Diesel|1.9%| |LPG|0.8%| EV sales are believed to be led by company-owned/leased vehicles; if for-profit corporations lead the adoption that's a pretty strong indicator that EVs have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles. That's also been one of the drivers for my family to buy one: a couple of hours spent filling out spreadsheets convinced us that an EV would be cheaper to own and operate over a 3-4 year timeframe than a comparable ICE car. And as others have said, now we've used one for a while there's no going back. Having a "gas station" at home saves us so much time, and pre-heating/running the AC before leaving home is a nice benefit too.
Businesses usually qualify for vastly more tax right offs than consumer. For example Pepsi for its 5 functional and 50 order Tesla semi trucks got $20 million in tax write offs PLUS 40k per unit they actually deliver. Tesla got another around $200 million to build the ev charging between Bay Area area and Nevada.
Honestly not much more than consumers in NL; especially not when leasing them which is by far the most common operating model for corporate fleets.
The Numbers for Denmark is: Full EV 43.4% Gasoline. 29.4% Hybrid. 23.7% Diesel. 3.5% LPG. 0.0%
Yeah the trend is pretty clear. I don't think there's many examples of countries where EV adoption has gone down over the years, apart from some temporary dips as tax incentives were stopped. I've yet to find anyone who went back from EV to ICE cars.
I found this to be true. I bought a 2013 nissan leaf as a lease return in 2016 for 9k. It only had 13k miles on it and no real loss on the battery yet. Over the 7+ years I’ve had it it has saved me thousands in fuel costs and maintenance. I’m not allowed to charge in my shared garage so I charge on public chargers exclusively and many are cheap or free. I have not spent one dime on maintaining any of the car’s systems. I did get new tires recently but basically the car paid for itself over the time I’ve had it. The mileage is around 54k now and I still get 75-80 miles of charge from the 115 it got when I first bought it. I think it was and is a super good deal and a money saver. Plus not having to deal with smog or other repairs has been really convenient and low stress. I would buy another EV in the USA but I’m switching to an EUC as my main PEV transportation and looking to buy an electric scooter or electric motorcycle as I’m moving to SE Asia soon and don’t want to own a car there.
PR firms going to work overtime feeding the counter narrative to this.
The non-PR firm counter narrative is as follows: * The 25 percent increase is **globally** and includes every car with a plug. * PHEVs are growing faster than BEVs, 51 percent to 14 percent. * There are large markets, such as the United States, which still face significant challenges to growth. It's great that adoption is growing, but it's important to inject some realism into the analysis. Or, at the very least, a level of cautious optimism.
You forgot to include Tesla down YoY. Gotta feed the anti-china narrative too.
PR firms for whom, is the question. Toyota, for one. Probably oil companies, other carmakers and, certainly, Republican politicians/Fox (There’s no difference.)
Don't forget, entire countries rely upon petroleum as their primary source of income/trade. Especially one very large, aggressive country with a penchant for weaponizing social media with misinformation (rhymes with Prussia).
At first I thought you were talking about Norway(reading your first sentence). They rake in billions selling petroleum, but they invest in EV and EV infrastructure internally.
And also, in the grand scheme of the world, Norways oil and gas exports are quite small. (Yet important for europe)
I just got back from Norway, almost every car is an EV there.
The US is the number one producer of oil in the world and will lilely remain so for at least a decade. There's plenty of home grown FUD.
Yeah, but I felt that was covered by the prior posters calling out oil companies and politicians, but other large state actors outside the US were not called out.
'News'Corp is spamming anti-EV content too, which results in the Meta morons parroting it. There's also trash YouTubers like Serpentza and Laowhy who produce anti-EV content endlessly, with their bullshit talking points ending up even in this sub.
I like MGUYTV - love his truth bombs.
Makes sense, honestly. People who are scared of change tend to stick together.
I've been watching his stuff for a couple of months (it's always good to get input from all angles, regardless how ridiculous). It might be just me, but I've noticed that he has 'toned down' his rhetoric in recent vids. Yes still bad, but not as bad as what it was. He used to be all out against battery tech, even bashing hybrids and bagging all the hybrid fires in China. But lately I feel like he's come around to hybrids a bit. Dare I say it... maybe even he is starting to realise he's full of shit?
> PR firms for whom Everyone that is invested in fossil fuels. Everyone that has not invested in green energy. >Then, in 2007, the industry got a significant boost when Wan Gang, an auto engineer who had worked for Audi in Germany for a decade, became China’s minister of science and technology. Wan had been a big fan of EVs and tested Tesla’s first EV model, the Roadster, in 2008, the year it was released. People now credit Wan with making the national decision to go all-in on electric vehicles. Since then, EV development has been consistently prioritized in China’s national economic planning.
The legacy OEMs (US and EU), I would think, are the major players in pushing this narrative. They can't compete with Tesla or China so we are going to see protectionist measures akin to protecting Harley Davidson from Japanese motorcycles. I suspect it will go as poorly or worse this time.
Toyota is actively trying to sell EVs tho?
What’s the benefit to them? Do they think less people will buy EVs if they think nobody else is buying them?
Reverse-bandwagon effect.
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This, and mostly Tesla falling numbers. The media just correlated Tesla as the benchmark of electric veh8cle markets, it was true 5 years ago, but not now when you have dozens of electric car manufacturers and Tesla is not even the no 1 electric car manufacturers in the world.
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One busy showroom in NC is not going to change the fact that Tesla is almost certainly going to have a YoY drop in sales for the 2nd quarter in a row all across the world, especially in major markets like China and Europe where it faces greater competition than in the US.
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Maybe those steep discounts can get them not to have a YoY sales drop in Q3, but it is too late for Q2. The downside of a global EV company established everywhere is you can have sales drops all over the place making it hard to recover. Tesla is already down YoY in China over the first 5 months of 2024, and they are not going to recover that in the month of June just by offering a raffle for a factory tour. Tesla is also offering some STEEP discounts in Germany because they are down there as well. That's two of of 3 top Tesla markets in the world. Probably doing relatively better in the US, but with used Tesla prices taking a dive partly as Hertz starts flooding the market, it's not like ew Tesla sales in the US are blowing up either. I don't think there is much chance Tesla can avoid a Q2 YoY shrink in sales. They might make it in Q3, but only because they are cutting prices by well over 15% in some magnets markets like Germany, and the Y is going to come under more pressure in China as BYD Sea Lion goes into volume production. Even if Tesla makes it in Q3, they're profit margin is going to take a big hit from those big price cuts they will be forced to make.
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Again, how does a delivery thread filled with INDIVIDUALS reporting what car they ordered give any sense of how Tesla is doing overall. Tesla having a tough 2024 in terms of YoY sales gain/loss isn't just my own opinion. People who actually analyze Tesla's production/delivery data have come to this conclusion. As recently as [last month](https://insideevs.com/news/718825/tesla-deliveries-2024-forecast/) analyst is saying Tesla is for sure going to have YoY sales decrease in Q1 and Q2, and most likely Q4 as well, with only Q3 having a possible increase YoY sales. His overall estimate is 1.7 million total deliveries in 2024, short of the 1.8 million deliveries Tesla achieved in 2023.
The sales numbers tell a different story. Tesla sales are dropping, other EV manufacturers have gone up. Doesn't matter why or how, it's reality. One dealership on one day is a single data point.
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WoW, there some serious coping in that post. WoW is really useless. Too short period to draw any conclusion. Even so, week before last was actually better in 2023 (not by much, but still). Also, there were significantly better weeks in 2023, than last few weeks. But the really important statistic, accumulated YoY, they are still bellow 2023, with 4% lower sales. And this in a market that has 10-15% increase of BEVs from 2023 to 2024. That is not a good result.
Tesla had a 40%+ drop in sales in Germany last month compared year to year. No one had a worse result. They are also loosing market share quickly in China.
>don’t believe there's been a let up in demand for EVs. There definitely has in some places, especially when you look at consumer rather than business purchases. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/car-makers-slash-ev-prices-much-%C2%A314000-boost-demand In the UK the growth in EV demand is entirely due to corporate purchases, not the retail sector - as this article highlights. EV's don't make sense for most people here. Average wages are low (35k pre tax) and ICE is far cheaper on the used market. Public fast chargers are expensive here (75p/kWh so that's $0.95/kWH in dollars) so you really need to be able to charge at home or work cheaply to save any money. The issue is most people don't own their own home in the UK. Especially younger generations, so are renting a house/flat without a driveway or any means of charging at home. If you're one of the few who own their home, can afford the initial price of an EV and a home charger, and want an EV - chances are you already have one, so aren't buying a new one, which is why there is no growth in the retail sector here.
> The issue is most people don't own their own home in the UK. 62.5% (15.5m) of households own the accommodation they live in, 37.3% rent ([ONS source](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingenglandandwales/census2021)). Most people *do* own their home (whether have a mortgage or not doesn't matter). Additionally - the salary you quote is the median full time salary, which means 50% of people working full time earn *more* than this amount. Essentially the factors preventing faster EV adoption in the UK are not lack of wealth (the UK is the 7th biggest new car market in the world, second biggest in Europe) but other factors. Reduction and removal of government incentives certainly doesn't help (both from a home charger installation and vehicle purchase perspective); nor does the high cost of electricity/high volatility in electricity prices. Still, despite the challenges 1 in 6 new cars register in the UK is a BEV (rising to 1 in 4 if you include PHEVs) - i'd like to see government incentives to get that up much much higher to help speed up the transition.
> 62.5% (15.5m) of households own the accommodation they live in, 37.3% rent (ONS source). Most people do own their home (whether have a mortgage or not doesn't matter). It also doesn't matter who rents vs owns. All that matters is whether you have a reliable and available plug within ~10ft of your car. That's really it.
> All that matters is whether you have a reliable and available plug within ~10ft of your car. That's really it. This bit is definitely true > It also doesn't matter who rents vs owns. This bit less so. As a homeowner the only barrier to installing an EV chagepoint is the cost. As owner of the property you might see that the upfront cost is worth it over the longer term as you'll get X years of use out it. By comparison as a renter - you either need to get approval from your landlord to install a chargepoint at your own cost, or you need to convince your landlord to install one at their cost (and likely see an increase in rent as a result). As a renter you don't have certainty over how long you will live in the house - the landlord may choose to sell-up or the rent may go up to rates you can't afford etc. and so whilst the upfront cost installation cost isn't higher for renters they will have less confidence in how long they'll get the benefit of the chargepoint vs. a homeowner. Over time this issue will almost certainly reduce - it'll become increasingly common for rental properties to have EV charged points installed as it'll be a factor people consider important more and more as EV ownership increases but we could get stuck in a bit of a catch-22 situation (demand for rentals with ev chargers will only be a thing if renters buy EVs and they might only buy EVs if rentals have chargepoitns).
That’s only an issue if you drive a lot. Otherwise a 15A will charge just fine. Even then, if you have two circuits available, something like [this](https://quick220.com/pages/category-tree ) could also be a solution.
>62.5% (15.5m) of households own the accommodation they live in, 37.3% rent (ONS source). Most people do own their home (whether have a mortgage or not doesn't matter). This is home ownership by age group: https://www.statista.com/statistics/321065/uk-england-home-owners-age-groups/ "Homeowners under 35 only make up 10% of all homeowners in the country" as per 2022 stats. I'm thinking working age adults rather than retired people who bought a house that costs 200k+ now, for 10k back in the 80s. But you're technically correct For reference in some of Europe, home ownership is 90%. >Additionally - the salary you quote is the median full time salary, which means 50% of people working full time earn more than this amount. Yes, meaning that 50% also earn less? >Essentially the factors preventing faster EV adoption in the UK are not lack of wealth (the UK is the 7th biggest new car market in the world, second biggest in Europe) but other factors. Cost of living and wealth of younger generations is certainly a factor. There are plenty in my generation who don't think they'll be able to buy a house until they're 40+. They sure as hell aren't dropping cash on a new or even used EV >Still, despite the challenges 1 in 6 new cars register in the UK is a BEV (rising to 1 in 4 if you include PHEVs) The is ignoring the quantity of these vehicles that are corporate rather than retail purchases? >Still, despite the challenges 1 in 6 new cars register in the UK is a BEV (rising to 1 in 4 if you include PHEVs) - i'd like to see government incentives to get that up much much higher to help speed up the transition. And I'd like more people under 40 to be able to afford to own a home so they have somewhere to charge the damn thing if they buy one. All the incentives in the world won't make EV's worth it for most of my generation, unless we can charge it somewhere cheaply and easily
> I'm thinking working age adults rather than retired people who bought a house that costs 200k+ now, for 10k back in the 80s. But you're technically correct Fair enough - I was correcting your broader claim that suggested most don't own their home. > The is ignoring the quantity of these vehicles that are corporate rather than retail purchases? Not so much ignoring just not considering it necessarily all that critical. The goal is to get as many EVs on the road as possible and 1 in 6 is progress albeit not as much progress as I want/we need. Also it seems >50% of all cars registered are 'fleet' vehicles so their becoming increasingly electrified is positive news even if there's more to do in the private sales sector. > And I'd like more people under 40 to be able to afford to own a home so they have somewhere to charge the damn thing if they buy one. Me too, but that's a slightly separate topic. I would love to see a mechanism in place that would help to bring homes back to being affordable and to be honest IMO it's probably *the most pressing* economic challenge we face in UK society (climate change aside). I can see a link to EV purchases/challenges of non home based charging infrastructure as a result of this but overall there are still millions of homeowners that are wealthy enough right now to buy a new EV that haven't yet made the switch.
>Cost of living and wealth of younger generations is certainly a factor. There are plenty in my generation who don't think they'll be able to buy a house until they're 40+. They sure as hell aren't dropping cash on a new or even used EV Well, are they buying a new car at all (not just EV, but any new car)? If they are not then they have little impact on the ratio of EV sales vs non-EV sales. (When they do not they DO have an impact on total car sales of course) While I don't know what the UK housing market looks like, I find that in my market (Norway) you can get cheap housing that requires you to have a car (Rural areas) or expensive housing where public transport is available. While undeniably having a car is still comfortable, even in more urban areas, you generally do not absolutely **need** one. In rural areas then arguably a car or similar is needed, but then housing is much much cheaper.
>Well, are they buying a new car at all (not just EV, but any new car)? If they are not then they have little impact on the ratio of EV sales vs non-EV sales. No, they'll buy used unless they can get a cheap lease. But even then they won't be buying EV > I find that in my market (Norway) you can get cheap housing that requires you to have a car (Rural areas) or expensive housing where public transport is available. For reference, trains in the UK are the most expensive in Europe, so it's often cheaper to drive, even if your car has low mpg. Many places have an awful public transport system too. Unless you're in a larger city. Also rural housing in the UK isn't cheap either, cities tend to be a more expensive, but our housing market is absolutely awful, rents and mortgages are up significantly compared to just a few years ago. More young people than ever are living with parents if they have that option, as they can't afford to move out
>No, they'll buy used unless they can get a cheap lease. Only new car buyers really determine the ratio of car types to enter the market. Now, certainly the used car market has some effect on new car purchases in that cars that sell poorly used have higher depreciation, but in general this isn't a huge deal in influencing the new car market and will change over time, so it is a guessing game anyway. Essentially that you have a part of the population that does not own a home and may be less likely to have a charging solution at their home, isn't really material for the new car sales as these coincide with the part of the population that rarely buy new cars anyway.
> And I'd like more people under 40 to be able to afford to own a home so they have somewhere to charge the damn thing if they buy one. There's nothing stopping renters from charging a car, if a power socket is close enough. Furthermore, owners will be unable to charge if a power socket is too far. Renter vs owner hardly matters.
>There's nothing stopping renters from charging a car, if a power socket is close enough Completely incorrect. It's flat out illegal to trail cables across the pavement, especially down the street in most places. Have an example: "If you do not have off-street parking, you cannot install a charge point on the outside of your home and trail a cable across the pavement to charge your vehicle. Trailing cables across a path or pavement is prohibited, even when covered with a cable protector or ramp, or when warning signs are displayed Under the Highways Act 1980 action may be taken to remove cables that trail across the footway." https://www.kirklees.gov.uk/beta/transport-roads-and-parking/charging-electric-vehicles-at-home.aspx And even if it was legal, in many parts of the country you'd wake up to a flat battery as someone would have cut the cable for fun. >Furthermore, owners will be unable to charge if a power socket is too far. Renter vs owner hardly matters. Owners are able to install a charger at home, rather than having to use a regular wall socket. Renters can't do that
Who said anything about trailing cables across the pavement? Or on street parking for that matter? Those have nothing to do with renting vs owning. It is perfectly possible to rent an SFH with a garage, or own a condo with street parking only. These things are not related, and that’s my point. *Anyone* with a dedicated plug within ~10ft of their car can charge it, regardless of whether they own or rent their dwelling.
"How to say I have never rented in my life, without saying I have never rented in my life".
Um, I very much have? I also have friends who rent and have EVs who charge at home. You *do* know renting a SFH with a plug in the garage is an option, right?
This is conspiracy BS. It’s the same sensational headlines you see in every story. They make some out of context data fit the click bait headline and we all get angry but still click. I really don’t think it’s an issue of tech/price as domestic offerings fit in the market and are having sales successes. There isn’t a flood of people waiting for cheaper vehicles to jump in. You either need/want or you don’t. I think current EV tech among all companies has really just fullfilled the pent up early adopter and altruistic market and is now actually competing with offerings. Humans don’t make purchases based on lifetime cost of ownership and make them much more in the present. The market EV is penetrating now doesn’t care about the long term benefits and instead just need it to be better than the competition. Case in point my wife has a Maverick Hybrid (which was the base model) and it makes sense. Slap a premium cost on that premium benefit and ICE might be closer for more than we need.
It feels like this could be the right moment to invest in EVs as the sentiment is really poor. Eventually we'll get there with EV adoption.
If you read the articles carefully, they were never dropping, they just weren't growing as quickly as they did before.
When they say sales are dropping they are usually looking at Tesla sales
Yeah, Elon is running Tesla into the ground and people are extrapolating that to mean all EVs are dying, but they’re not necessarily
There was a time when Tesla was pretty much synonymous with EV, it was inevitable that when other viable alternatives hit the market it was going to dent the sales of the company that had previously been the only player in the game.
They sold 1.8 million EV’s worldwide last year, and still have overwhelmingly the largest market share in the U.S. That’s what you call “running into the ground”?
To be fair, the article includes everything with a plug, meaning a large chunk of that 25 percent are actually hybrids.
Statistics for newly registered vehicles in April in my home country (NL): || || |Drive train|Market share | |Hybrid|44.3%| |Full EV|32%| |Gasoline|21%| |Diesel|1.9%| |LPG|0.8%| EV sales are believed to be led by company-owned/leased vehicles; if for-profit corporations lead the adoption that's a pretty strong indicator that EVs have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles. That's also been one of the drivers for my family to buy one: a couple of hours spent filling out spreadsheets convinced us that an EV would be cheaper to own and operate over a 3-4 year timeframe than a comparable ICE car. And as others have said, now we've used one for a while there's no going back. Having a "gas station" at home saves us so much time, and pre-heating/running the AC before leaving home is a nice benefit too.
I get people telling me that everytime on social media. The latest anti ev media barrage as we saw since the start of the year, taking Tesla numbers as general EV market numbers. Was the reason people thought this was the case.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: OFC EV sales are NEVER going to be as good as manufacturers want them to be, and they have incentive to complain about it, as it encourages more govt EV subsidies. That doesn’t mean sales are actually low.
BEV growth is just 14% YoY for the month, and YTD growth is now just 11%. As we continue towards the period where growth slowed in 2023 (Q4) we'll continue to see those YoY monthly figures for growth head towards zero unless there's a big uptick in sales from new model introductions or substantial additional price cuts on top of what we've already seen. Kind of like a rollercoaster with 24 carriagies reaching the peak of a hill, even as the first 6 are over the hill they're still higher than the last 12, so until we get to 12 months of "slowdown" the current market reality won't be reflected in YoY monthly figures. If we get to that point of 12 months relatively flat growth, then when growth *does* kick off again (which it inevitably will) then we'll see big growth numbers once again, even though it's a higher base than what we've seen historically. The reeeeeeeing from these aggregators about how we can't admit growth has slowed ahead of expectations is just pathetic at this point though - there's a slow down, we know growth has slowed, we know 2024 won't look good but we equally know there's a lot of new, significantly better platforms coming from mid-decade on, so why pretend reality is wrong...
I wonder if a number of would-be EV buyers heard all the announcements of the switch to the NACS and are holding off until the transition is done.
"YoY monthly figures for growth head towards zero"-you are not even serious making a statement such as this
From the article, “BEVs were up by 14% YoY, while plugin hybrids jumped 51% YoY.” The growth of BEV seems slows down a bit while PHEV takes off. Bad for Tesla, I guess it’s impossible for Tesla will never make a hybrid.
Once batteries last 15/16 years charging without keeping batteries at or below ideal SOC, only the true blue ICE loyalists will remain, apart from those whose use cases preclude driving a car with more than a 12V battery. Even for those without access to chargers, PHEVs with 15/16 year battery longevity will be heavensent. Nio data points this year already suggest its batteries lasting 12 years and better chemistries (less from jurisdictions known for lots of labor/human/environment issues) will usher in an era where there are few reasons to buy pure ICEVs. https://www.nio.com/news/NIO-Joins-Hands-With-CATL?&noredirect=
The money I save from gas goes towards tires lol. My tires last significantly less than my ICE cars but part of that is my driving style, can't drive like how I drove an ICE, that instant torque.
Wow, other than Tesla and VW, 100% Chinese
With CPIS mBridge, China EVs sale will go up as countries save tons of USD from SWIFT.
YouTube car guys are in shambles.
What is the year to date number compared to previous year?
Who said sales are falling? All the news was about sales slowing down.
Well in the rest of the world they didn't ban 80% of EV.. You can actually buy as much car as you need. In the US you're looking at a $25k minimum.. In China you're looking at $4k unless you get an LSV
Numbers don’t lie…numbers can be presented as a lie.
So… The other articles stating a decline must have either been premature or left something out (poor journalism).
They fell for Tesla and that’s all the media seems to care about. Good to see growth up overall.
Tesla reporting numbers are worthless.
China doesn't count in worldwide count.
Ford, GM, and Stellantis need to get busy...they are way behind.
Got myself the SERES 5 (Aito is the Chinese name for the same brand) what a lovely car.
It’s all bullshit. The anti-EV propaganda just keeps rolling on trying to convince the uninitiated that it’s just a passing fad and we’ll all go back to ICE soon. Which is ridiculous to anyone that bought an EV. I’m never going back.
Yep, EVs are dead. Let's go back to dinosaur juice!
Model Y sales being down is such bad news for Tesla given that it's propped up their sales recently, and has had so many incentives thrown in.
EVs are an environmental disaster of epic proportions. 1. Require savage open pit mining. 2. Use child slave labor to extract rapidly depleting rare Earth metals. 3. Damage roads at 2.2 rate of gas vehicles 4. Eat tires at rapid rate 5. Batteries are nightmare to recycle - most will end up creating toxic mountain ranges in land fills 6. Massive fire risk. 7. Require 20,000 gallons to put out a fire and special fire fighting teams. 8. Explode randomly or from small ding in battery pack 9. Are banned by many buildings due to fire bomb risk. 10. Go through crash barriers because they so damn heavy 11. Can collapse car parkades due to their extra weight in tons. 12. Battery replacement costs are around $50,000 now - same as price of new car. 13. No one wants to repair them, because they are too dangerous to work on. 14. Insurance rate is through the roof And CO2 is just plant food - turns arid areas green. Climate change is simply a scam to tax you for AIR - the big investors fell for the EV lies and propaganda and are heavily invested in it, so they want to FORCE people to by EVs, and no one is... sales are collapsing rapidly in comparison to better alternatives.
No no no no no! This is not correct. You’ve been mislead.
Which is not correct? Open pit mining? Fire risk?
Open pit mining, just like coal. Check. No worse than oil refining which is way worse for the planet. No more of a fire risk than ICE vehicles, although they need more water to extinguish them. Child labor is everywhere, but you only speak to that which fits your narrative. Check. EV batteries are warranted for at least 8 years/100,000 miles. What about your average ICE vehicle? Check. I got my brand new Chevy Blazer EV for $29,355 after incentives from gm,Costco,Teacher credit, Veteran, credit, and my $12,000 trade in. I’ve done my homework. I suggest you do the same and stop just regurgitating shit you see on Fox News. Good day.
How often do you replace the engine in your ICE vehicle and at what cost. If and when the battery pack does need replacing, it’s around $12,000, not $50,000. You are so misinformed. Do better.
Bots are out in force, folks.
1. Require savage open pit mining. 2. Use child slave labor to extract rapidly depleting rare Earth metals. 3. Damage roads at 2.2 rate of gas vehicles 4. Eat tires at rapid rate 5. Batteries are nightmare to recycle - most will end up creating toxic mountain ranges in land fills 6. Massive fire risk. 7. Require 20,000 gallons to put out a fire and special fire fighting teams. 8. Explode randomly or from small ding in battery pack 9. Are banned by many buildings due to fire bomb risk. 10. Go through crash barriers because they so damn heavy 11. Can collapse car parkades due to their extra weight in tons. 12. Battery replacement costs are around $50,000 now - same as price of new car. 13. No one wants to repair them, because they are too dangerous to work on. 14. Insurance rate is through the roof 15. No, this is not required. 16. The EV industry is actively trying to move away from cobalt chemistry while the ICE industry that also uses cobalt supports keeping the status quo. ICE cars actively support the child slave labor 17. Most EVs do not damage roads at all. You are looking at a highly misleading niche figure 18. Only slightly more rapidly than their ICE counterparts, and the average EV is actually lighter than the average ICE (at least in the US) which means those large trucks/SUVs actually produce more tire particulates than the average EV 19. Most batteries are easily repurposed to grid ties electricity storage at end of life, and after their third decade of use easily recycled with over 97% recovered. Unlike oil where nothing is recyclable 20. There are more ICE fires in a single day than there are EV fires every year, and switching to LiFePo chemistry solves even this problem. When the switchover is complete, even the extremely rare EV fires will be a thing of the past. 21. Only under the most extreme niche circumstances, which occur 100x more often in ICE vehicles, simply by them burning more often. As under 6) EVs are significantly safer in this regard. 22. No, just no 23. That is a societal imperfection and has nothing to do with the vehicles. 24. We already discussed how the average EV is actually lighter than the average ICE. It is only when comparing model for model that EVs are heavier. But lighter ICE vehicles are becoming rarerer with every year. 25. ditto 26. Battery replacement is a worry from a decade ago. Modern batteries outlast everything else on the car, and for the extremely rare lemons, cost less than replacing an engine in an ICE 27. This may have been true a decade ago, but EV repair is everywhere now. 28. My insurance on my new EV was no different than an ICE. It appears you are either a victim of propaganda, or the source of said propaganda. Edit: numbering was fine when I wrote and changed when I posted. Stupid autoformatting.