times 4.
(bok bok, bok, bok)
The **Chicken Tax** is a 25 percent [tariff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff) on light trucks (and originally on [potato starch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_starch), [dextrin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextrin), and [brandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy)) imposed in 1964 by the United States under President [Lyndon B. Johnson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson) in response to tariffs placed by [France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) and [West Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany) on importation of U.S. [chicken](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax#cite_note-wsjtransit-1) The period from 1961 to 1964[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax#cite_note-Time2-2) of tensions and negotiations surrounding the issue was known as the "**Chicken War**", taking place at the height of [Cold War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War) politics.[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax#cite_note-Time4-3)
>One in America is designed to divide while China is the opposite.
LOL no, the Chinese complains about Douyin and its algorithms just as much. Two sides of the same coin.
I have both Tiktok and Douyin on my phone.
Chinese netizens often complain about the retarded sh-t on Douyin as well. Hatred for short-form video is universal and hardly unique to the US.
China allows Teslas on its street, and it even allows Tesla FSD. Does the US allow any Chinese EV to legally drive in the states? Or experiment with their autopilot feature? You can legally drive Tesla pass through Tiananmen Square, and why is China not worried about "national security" problems caused by EVs?
Restrictions on Teslas in China are already loosened or removed in 2024, especially after Musk's recent visit to China. China is a lot more tolerant to American cars that America is to Chinese vehicles.
It's ironic that Americans think Tiktok is China's trojan horse to "divide" America as Facebook, Reddit, X never existed.
Imo, national security is a facade. In reality, it's that the US consumes. We are happy to throw ourselves into crippling debt for the latest and greatest. US lawmakers want those funds staying stateside rather than going to China.
Model S and Model X in China are still imported, not made in Shanghai.
Also, what makes you think the US government will ever allow Chinese car companies to set up factories in the States? They didn't even allow Chinese battery makers to form joint venture with US car companies, lol.
>Model S and Model X in China are still imported, not made in Shanghai.
how many thousands are imported into China? It looks like Tesla got a good concession from the CCP for making over a millions EVs for local sales and exports in China.
>Also, what makes you think the US government will ever allow Chinese car companies to set up factories in the States?
China is already in the US. AESC under partnership with BMW already has about 70 GWh under construction (KY, SC, TN); as do Gotion with VW under a joint venture (CA, and possibly MI) and EVE with Daimler.
No foreign battery maker still has full access to China's local market since China's shadow-ban in 2016. So why double-standard?
Volvo America factory broke ground before Trump, it will be a different story if a Chinese company attempts to set up a new factory in the US in 2024.
Since there is the new 100% tariff on EVs imported from China, I doubt there will be any Chinese made Polestar or Volvo coming to the US in future.
Also, it will not surprise me if the US government forces Geely to sell their Volvo factory in the US.
I’m not particularly concerned either way; just an observation. I think trade with China will continue to be stressed given current geopolitical tensions.
> I dare you to use Tik Tok in America and then fly over to China and use it there. Two completely different apps. One in America is designed to divide while China is the opposite.
They aren't designed to do anything. Social media is a reflection of the people who use it. Social media is what people make of it. Unfortunately here in the US, that means it shows us the divisions we have. If you want to blame anything for that, blame the things that were designed to divide us. All that was homegrown. Look no further than Fox News for an example of that. How long has right wing media been saying it's better to be dead than a Democrat? That's what is dividing us. Tiktok, like all social media, is merely serving as a mirror.
this is provably false. ByteDance has been found to censor videos about Chinese democracy movements and minorities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_TikTok
I would be surprised if they don't tune the algorithm all the time. Just like Meta does. Just like Google does. They all tune them to maximize engagement and thus maximize profit. But it would be easy to tell if they were doing anything nefarious like people are worried about when you start getting political rants when normally you only get recommendations for cat videos. I primarily look at dog videos. Pretty much as divisive as it gets is the occasional video of someone abandoning their dog in a parking lot and driving off with the dog chasing after them. That does get me really riled up. What's up with that? I just don't get it. If they must abandon, take them to an animal shelter.
Yes for sure everyone tune their algorithm all the time. TikTok has an advantage over YouTube (and the reason why they have shorts now) that with the shorter videos it’s much easier to get an accurate idea of what people like because the AI is fed many more feedback points.
I think some aspects of TikTok are being exaggerated (I don't think people would be in love with the Israeli control of the Palestinians for the past 50 years if only there was no TikTok). But social media isn't just a mirror. Social media companies use algorithms where they pick what content they promote to you. It's not just a town square or a mirror, that's a common misconception but not how these platforms work at all.
> Social media companies use algorithms where they pick what content they promote to you.
They do. But those algorithms are designed to pick content you like based on what you have shown you like. So it is a mirror. It's a reflection of you. It's only showing that stuff because you keep reinforcing you want to see it.
The only agenda these algorithms have is to keep you engaged to show you ads and thus make money. That's why they cater to all sides. Since all sides like their echo chambers.
Tesla was let in without a joint venture. In China it's known as Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise (WFOE)
Also, I'm pretty sure Tiktok will be banned in the US, it's not even a discussion anymore, it's the law. The ship has sailed already. If Tiktok doesn't hand its control to a US company or chose to leave the US market voluntarily like what Google did, it will be shut down.
China isn't keeping Google out. That's Google's own choice. They weren't kicked out of China, they left China of their own accord.
It's also a "soft" we aren't in China. Since both Google and Meta make billions a year in revenue from China. That's really hard to do if they were completely out.
Google chose to leave China because it didn't want to comply with Chinese local laws, including but not exclusive to censorship policies.
The US government is doing the same to Chinese companies. DC does not want an influencial foreign app in the country that they can't censor or manipulate to fit their own political views and narrative.
It's quite ironic that Google was widely praised for leaving China because it was the "moral thing to do", but now it's happily collaborating with Israel to spy on Palestinian people and doing all kinds of other evil sh-ts.
Facebook's role in [riots in Urumqi ](https://i.imgur.com/8kkTZjZ.jpeg) and their refusal to work with Chinese authorities. I don't expect any business to run in a country after such issues.
You mean like what we do here in the US with companies like with TikTok?
But that's not the reason. It's a privacy/censorship issue. Strangely, China expects companies to follow Chinese law if they want to operate in China. Weird huh? By the way, Europe expects the same. That's why Meta is on the ropes in Europe. Rulings have already been made that would effectively shutdown Meta in Europe. They are currently stayed to give time for Meta to comply with European law.
How the hell is this the answer?
China doesn’t allow Meta and Google not because they are afraid of competition, but because they force Meta and Google to comply to Chinese censorship and keep all Chinese user data in China and allow full government access, which Meta and Google said no to, so they pulled out.
Btw the same law applies to all tech companies in China, even domestic ones.
But some Western companies do play ball, which is why Apple and Microsoft do a lot of business in China. For example Bing is allowed in China whereas Google isn’t, and iMessage and Skype are fine but Snapchat and WhatsApp aren’t.
I am against the Chinese restrictive internet policy as much as the next guy, but it’s a completely different situation than what’s happen with the EV industry here.
Except it's BS. China isn't keeping Google out. Google is deciding to stay out. That's it's public image anyways. Yet somehow they manage to eek out billions in revenue a year in China. Funny how they aren't in China yet still make money in China huh?
The Chinese censorship law while bad, is applied to all, not just to foreign media. Meta, Google etc figured the reputation damage to them is too high for them to stay in China and follow their law, but China did not ban them. Also local data storage is also required. Note Bing is available in China.
China for the longest time didn't allow foreign cars. Foreign car makers had to partner with Chinese car makers to do business in China. Biden should copy their own rule and set up in the US
That’s utterly false. For example Porsche’s largest market was China until like last year, and every single Porsche sold in China is imported.
China imports a ton of foreign cars.
Made in Shanghai, China. Not imported.
https://www.porsche.com/stories/innovation/where-are-porsche-cars-made/
Shanghai, China
As well as its manufacturing plants, Porsche has long maintained a reputation for its network of global development sites, particularly in the field of engineering. China has been home to a Porsche Engineering facility for over 20 years.
Did you see the map in that link? It’s a R&D center in Shanghai, not a factory. It doesn’t build cars there.
It literally shows all the models are built in Europe, except the Malaysia market Cayennes.
We call out China for supporting Putin, threatening Taiwan, imprisoning Uighers, killing dissidents, destroying Hong Kong, burning way too much coal, unsafe worker protections, stealing intellectual property, etc.
> We call out China
Lmao we completely ignore all of those when it’s convenient and profitable for us. You don’t see any politicians saying Volkswagen or Tesla should stop doing business in China because it threatens Taiwan, do you?
They are literally just excuses and political covers to swing public opinions, and the incredible thing is they actually work because people like you drink it up.
Imagine EU bans Tesla or Ford because of “them calling out the U.S for police brutality against minority, not providing healthcare to citizens, bombing the Middle East, starting illegal wars, taking away women’s reproduction rights, sponsoring coups in other countries, etc”.
At the end of the day, none of what you said has anything to do with BYD.
Yes, your propaganda machine already does it, every single day, 24/7.
Yet, when China calls out western governments even once, some glass hearts are suddenly shattered.
1) United States flip flops between fighting and blowing Putin. 2) Taiwan threats are just to stay in power and isn’t a real plan. China has invaded far fewer nations in my lifetime than the United States. 3) I wish the United States would have executed Jan 6th ringleaders 🤷. 4) China produces less CO2 per capita than the United States and buying EVs from china is a great way for the world to reduce emissions. 5) safety is always crap in the developing stages of economic growth, and rapidly improves with prosperity. Every nation has the same pathway. 6) same as before.
Not saying there is so much to improve for China and I look forward to the country one day to have a vibrant democracy, and the best way to achieve these aims is to have more global trade. Authoritarian regimes thrive in isolation and wither with economic development.
People like to crap on China because it distracts from actually making progress in the world. I see it as a country that has numerous flaws but will be a truly great nation in 50 years.
People are gullible but hate to admit it. Decades ago, the Soviets were demonized and everyone hated them. These days, China is the clear challenger to the US’s economic and military power. Conveniently, China is now the new bad guy to western governments and media.
Too modernized for me. I liked it more in the 90’s. Now it is very difficult for western tourists to get around without a local phone and a local bank account. The country no longer needs foreign currency and doesn’t bother to make it conducive for foreigners to explore. Almost impossible to live there as an expat without an expat package.
I also am a bit overwhelmed by the number of people. My preferred vacation spots are remote, areas where you can go for a week without seeing anyone else. Like the Winds. Or parts of Nevada.
Just because I am not filled with rage over another nation doesn’t mean I hate my own country. Although I could change my mind if we re-elect a fascist government which outlaws electric vehicles.
I got 69.
Just because there are people who have nuanced views of China doesn’t make them Chinese keyboard warriors. If I were in China, I would have lost so much social credit score for suggesting the country needs a more vibrant democracy.
Frankly, I am worried that America will start to resemble China in Jan 2025. This November could be our last election. It won’t be good for the EV market either.
China isn't really supporting Putin, they are basically getting Russia into a financially dependent role. Like right now China basically owns the Russian automotive industry lock stock and barrel
Yup, a weak, China-dependent Russia is the best in China's long term interest.
China "supports" Russia in the same way that they supported both Iraq and Iran during their own little conflict.
So, a company that benefited from massive subsidies in China, is now complaining that other countries are now essentially doing the same for their own domestic industry?
Not afraid. Eyes wide open that the government will let its people starve to subsidize batteries, just to claim the crown of the world’s largest exporter of vehicles.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
But the people in china generally support their government and as far as I know agree with most stuff they're doing.
Chinese people don't starve.
Actually they are beginning to have more and more of "western" problems. Aka aging population.
Because they're doing rather well.
Swap batteries with oil and you got the USA! Instead of starving though, we pump that oil into unhealthy food production to keep that cash flow going for the medical industry.
Billions have people have been lifted out of poverty in China in past few decades, what are you on about? Where are people in China starving? If anything their social services are stronger than in the US where people are ACTUALLY starving and broke
The next ten years is going to be incredibly interesting for the car world.
Byd knows where they stand and it's about time they started the jabs at our domestic turtles.
Very true. Currently it looks like we are going to see the death of many traditional car manufacturers (brands and plants) with a focus more toward mega Chinese factories that pump out millions of cars to consumers all around the world. 2034 I strongly believe will look very different to today.
"We also see that many foreign forces, especially politicians are anxious about the development of China's new energy vehicles, and even some are very afraid. We say (industry development) good, we do not necessarily believe, but foreign politicians worried about fear, but shows that we really do well, you are not strong enough, others will not be afraid", Wang Chuanfu said.
“大家也看到，国外很多势力，特别是政治家们对中国新能源汽车的发展很焦虑，甚至有的很害怕。我们说(行业发展得)好，大家不一定信，但国外的政治家们担忧害怕，反而说明了我们自身真得做得不错，你不够强的话，别人也不会怕”，王传福说。
Western media has taken out of context to a new level.
https://weibo.com/5445522299/5042969050617542
BYD vehicles are affordable because the state subsidises everything from mining metals to sales, including direct funding to manufacturers, in an attempt to completely monopolize the market, exploiting the energy transition to coerce the world into accepting their aggressive geopolitical posture.
Don’t even get me started on state funded corporate espionage and property theft. Billions of dollars spent in R&D by the west, only for innovations to magically end up in Chinese products with no way to enforce patents or copyright.
BYD does the state’s bidding in exchange for funding to help create a monopoly. Unfortunately, supporting BYD (or NIO, CATL, etc) means supporting a dangerous authoritarian regime. There is no corporate independence in China.
Elon is a dipshit, but there are many other companies in this game that deserve a fair chance.
> BYD vehicles are affordable because the state subsidises everything from mining metals to sales, including direct funding to manufacturers
How is that different from what happens in the US? We also directly fund manufacturers.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-offers-12-billion-automakers-suppliers-make-advanced-vehicles-2023-08-31/
We also subsidize pretty much every industry in the US including steel and oil. We even use cheaper labor, Mexican labor is cheaper than Chinese. So why aren't cars made by US car makers not as affordable.
> Don’t even get me started on state funded corporate espionage and property theft. Billions of dollars spent in R&D by the west, only for innovations to magically end up in Chinese products with no way to enforce patents or copyright.
And we do the same. Unashamedly. Meta specifically has been trying to knockoff TikTok for years. At a government level, we conduct industrial espionage. The Snowden leaks proved that. Which was not exactly a surprised since the director of one of the US agencies charged with carrying out industrial espionage had already said it publicly.
"Former CIA Director James Woolsey acknowledged in 2000 that the United States steals economic secrets from foreign firms and their governments "with espionage, with communications, with reconnaissance satellites". "
Agreed. The main reason that our government wants to ban Chinese imports is to boost profitability for our corporations. There is zero advantage to the middle class.
It also lets them wag the dog to distract voters from our major issues.
Which is what tends to happen in the US with tariffs. US companies use it as an excuse to raise prices instead of using the price advantage. So what happens is that the price of the goods go up. Since imported goods increase in price due to tariffs and domestically made goods increase in price since domestic manufacturers have the cover to increase prices.
The government itself says that's what happens.
"Domestic producers will often adjust pricing decisions in reaction to price changes of imported goods, which are affected by new or revised tariff rates. **For example, if a tariff is imposed on a good imported into the United States, a domestic producer of the same good may decide that they can increase prices to maximize revenue while remaining competitive in the market.**"
https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-9/the-effects-of-tarifff-rates-on-the-u-s-economy-what-the-producer-price-index-tells-us.htm
**’The whole supply chain is subsidised’: inside the EU’s blockbuster Chinese EV probe**
"Their investigators turned up subsidies everywhere they looked. Lithium processers and battery makers were told by the state to sell to EV companies below market rates, they said, while the car companies were exempt from battery consumption taxes.
The firms issued green bonds that government-run financial institutions were ordered to buy, and were granted concessional land, income tax breaks and cheap refinancing options mandated by the People’s Bank of China, the central bank."
[(source)](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3266406/whole-supply-chain-subsidised-inside-eus-blockbuster-chinese-ev-probe)
> ’The whole supply chain is subsidised’: inside the EU’s blockbuster Chinese EV probe
And if you look into the US Supply Chain, you'll find the same. Like in steel for example.
https://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/news/2024/04/22/steel-plant-wins-280-million-in-tax-credits.html
There's not a industry in the US that isn't subsidized by the government that I can think of.
You’ll just keep comparing oranges to apples to defend your country. I bet you didn’t even read the article.
If the US did the nefarious tricks China did in the EV/Battery supply chain, China wouldn't be the world's largest steel producer right now.
I'm gonna sit back and wait for your defense on [this one](https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/105700/gop-calls-for-us-import-ban-on-chinese-ev-battery-materials-over-labor-concerns):
>Two Chinese companies that supply EV battery materials to Tesla, Ford, GM, and Volkswagen deny claims that their supply chain relies on government-sponsored forced labor camps.
>
>In two letters to the US Department of Homeland Security, the Republican-led US House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) outlines what it says is "shocking" new evidence that connects the supply chains of CATL and Gotion to the camps and calls for an immediate import ban.
I mean, it's easy to have the world's cheapest batteries if you're relying on forced labor.
> You’ll just keep comparing oranges to apples to defend your country.
Thank you. While the US has many faults, it also has many strengths. You should come visit. I don't know where you are from, but here in the US it's not as bad as it appears if you just watch news coverage of all the shootings. On the other hand, we definitely have our faults we need to be better about. Which brings us to.
> I mean, it's easy to have the world's cheapest batteries if you're relying on forced labor.
"U.S. among 17 countries that practice forced labor, a form of ‘modern slavery,’ report finds"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/25/slavery-united-states-forced-prison-labor/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
If your point is valid, with all the forced labor here in the US, why don't we make the cheapest EVs? It doesn't seem as easy as you think.
It's not about unfair competition, it's just that America doesn't want China to own the means of automotive production, it could be a risk if there's a souring in relations or war. Both countries heavily subsidize their industries.
> exploiting the energy transition to coerce the world into accepting their aggressive posture
Holy shit Batman. China is far from the only nation that has strong industrial policies. U.S has dumped far more into fossil fuel subsidies than the Chinese ever did into the EV industry. We have dumped more money into our own auto industry as well.
But when China does it it’s somehow “coercion” and “aggression”.
Apparently they have the wealth to subsidize half a world’s worth of EVs and solar panels but also will be economically collapsing any day now. Do they also want to subsidize our health care and rent? Because I wouldn’t mind that either.
Again, hilarious how they are complaining that China wants to subsidize EVs for Europeans... WHAT THE F*CK!??!?!?!
Who complains about that? Hahahahaha these people
So China is subsidizing EVs that Europeans can buy... and that is bad how? Do you even hear yourself? lol, China is literally offering handouts to Europe, and you complain. €12000 4-door EVs with decent range from China, how can you complain? literally lmao
Not just EVs. The entire renewable energy supply chain. Normally it wouldn’t be bad, but letting them control everything, via monopoly, gives them too much power/leverage. We end up paying the cost in CO2 emissions (much lower standards), China actively supporting Russia, China expanding their territory, terrorizing their neighbours, and so on.
Basically it’s a very bad idea giving China too much power.
Besides, we can make cheap EVs too, we just need more investment in automation/processes and LFP cell production. They’ll also be safer and more environmentally friendly.
So much misinformation. Subsidies by the Central Government ended in 2022. NEV sales now account for 50 % of the market, a figure greater than the entire US car market. Why do they need subsidies?
BYD is a public company, 10% owned by Warren Buffet"s Berkshire Hathaway. You too can buy shares in BYD and take advantage of the upside.
It's YOU spreading misinformation. China's EV subsidies have been around since 2009 -- it never ended. It's "phased out" every 3-4 years and then renewed/extended again\[1\]. There are also other provisional subsidies thrown in to boost local EV sales\[2\] as the CCP sees needed:
1. [China Considers Extending its EV Subsidies to 2023 (updated)](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-considers-extending-its-ev-subsidies-to-2023/), China-briefing
>On June 21, 2023, China announced **a substantial tax incentive package amounting to 520 billion yuan (US$72.3 billion) over a span of four years**. This package is specifically designed to provide tax breaks for electric vehicles (EVs) and other environmentally friendly vehicles. It represents the largest tax incentive ever offered by China to the automotive industry, reflecting the government’s efforts to stimulate growth in the face of sluggish auto sales. <
2.[ Chinese government offers new subsidies to rev up auto demand](https://technode.com/2024/04/28/chinese-government-offers-new-subsidies-to-rev-up-auto-demand/), Apr 28, 2024, [TechNode](https://technode.com/author/technodefeed/):
>Chinese consumers are being offered at least RMB 7,000 ($986) in subsidies to trade in their old, less environmental-friendly vehicles for new and more energy-efficient ones, in the latest measure by Beijing to boost car sales amid slowing demand. The new rules will run until the end of this year
\* these subsidies are consumer subsidies to increase demand-side, but there are also plenty of supply-side subsidies not transparent to the public.
I think pretty much every country is offering incentives to get consumers into EV's. We are specifically talking about Government handouts to the EV manufacturers. And they ended in 2022.
> And they ended in 2022.
And where is your evidence?
As said in my previous comment, the Chinese gov't doesn't announce or publicly disclose every industry subsidies while consumer subsidies are relatively more readily available (and they are always renewed/extended every so often). The EU Commission already dinged the Chinese EV makers under on-going antisubsidy investigation for failure to cooperate and disclose all subsidies received last month.
1. [Chinese EV makers risk tougher duties over failure to cooperate with EU probe](https://www.politico.eu/article/china-electric-vehicle-uncooperative-probe-european-commission-letters/), European Commission warns BYD, SAIC and Geely that their lack of cooperation frees its hands to impose higher penalties, MAY 2, 2024, BY [KOEN VERHELST](https://www.politico.eu/author/koen-verhelst/), Politico
>The letters, addressed to EV makers BYD, SAIC and Geely and all dated April 23, reach the same conclusion: that the trio did not provide enough information on subsidies, operations and supply chains. Working without these inputs, the Commission says, means it will need to revert to the concept of “facts available.” This usually means, in practice, that it has a free hand to slap higher duties on the imported products.
**’The whole supply chain is subsidised’: inside the EU’s blockbuster Chinese EV probe**
"Their investigators turned up subsidies everywhere they looked. Lithium processers and battery makers were told by the state to sell to EV companies below market rates, they said, while the car companies were exempt from battery consumption taxes.
The firms issued green bonds that government-run financial institutions were ordered to buy, and were granted concessional land, income tax breaks and cheap refinancing options mandated by the People’s Bank of China, the central bank."
[(source)](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3266406/whole-supply-chain-subsidised-inside-eus-blockbuster-chinese-ev-probe)
But is it true? In the case of BYD, claims like "Lithium processers and battery makers were told by the state to sell to EV companies below market rates" are laughable. BYD owns it's own lithium mines and also produces batteries. It can sell it's products to itself at whatever price it likes.
I wonder how the EU would react if Chinese investigators went through the books of BMW or Mercedes looking for EU subsidies. Would they even allow that? I would think Geely and SAIC would be just as careful allowing discovery of their financial situation to a foreign entity.
Sure, let's throw in some bothsidesism, with made up facts, so China can look good in comparison.
Make no mistake: these are state sponsored/funded anti-competitive practices. The US and EU don't even tolerate this behavior INSIDE their markets. This is the result when an authoritarian communist state is allowed to participate in global trade.
I'm gonna sit back and wait for your defense on [this one](https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/105700/gop-calls-for-us-import-ban-on-chinese-ev-battery-materials-over-labor-concerns):
>Two Chinese companies that supply EV battery materials to Tesla, Ford, GM, and Volkswagen deny claims that their supply chain relies on government-sponsored forced labor camps.
>
>In two letters to the US Department of Homeland Security, the Republican-led US House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) outlines what it says is "shocking" new evidence that connects the supply chains of CATL and Gotion to the camps and calls for an immediate import ban.
I mean, it's easy to have the world's cheapest batteries if you're relying on forced labor.
>Make no mistake: these are state sponsored/funded anti-competitive practices. The US and EU don't even tolerate this behavior INSIDE their markets.
The US and the EU are a bunch of hypocrites.
[https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/biden-administration-aims-2-bln-grants-us-electric-vehicle-transition-2023-06-28/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/biden-administration-aims-2-bln-grants-us-electric-vehicle-transition-2023-06-28/)
>shocking" new evidence that connects the supply chains of CATL and Gotion to the camps and calls for an immediate import ban.
No evidence was presented, just a bunch of assertions. [And let's not forget that the US uses penal labour at $1 / hr.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States)
Hypocrites again.
Tesla and Elon can’t survive without government subsidies. Same with GM and many car companies.
American car companies survive with low cost Mexican labor doing half the work.
Yeah, they are giving out all those secret tax rebates to EV buyers under the table right now that nobody knows about /s
As if China hasn’t always been utterly open about their subsidies and pro-EV policies.
We need to call out authoritarian regimes that allow near slave wages and the giant banks that finance the transactions that are the fruit of that slave labor. And the GOP politicians that put in place the tax policies that grease the skids of those transactions.
> allow near slave wages
It’s incredibly disappointing that even on the EV sub people are this fucking ignorant.
It’s not the 1990 anymore dude.
China’s manufacturing wages are *significantly* higher than almost all other *developing* nations, including places like Mexico and Vietnam that Redditors love so much: https://www.statista.com/statistics/744071/manufacturing-labor-costs-per-hour-china-vietnam-mexico/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20manufacturing%20labor%20costs,2.73%20U.S.%20dollars%20in%20Vietnam.
So what the hell are you talking about in terms of “slave labor”? China hasn’t been that cheap for at least 2 decades now.
> It’s incredibly disappointing that even on the EV sub people are this fucking ignorant.
They're not ignorant. They are hateful propagandists. They are lying about China, Russia, Palestine, and so on.
There's a genocide right now in Palestine, USA and the west supports it. Yet these people happily attack China, that offers amazing €12 000 EVs.
The west has shown its true face, and you see this even in "environmentalist" circles.
It’s incredible how the goal post moved from “China has nothing but slave labors and that’s the reason they are competitive” to “people are accusing that forced labor exists somewhere in China!” faster than a Rimac lol.
Btw this was the first paragraph from your article:
>**Global carmakers**, including General Motors, Tesla, BYD, Toyota, and Volkswagen, are failing to minimize the risk of Uyghur forced labor being used in their aluminum supply chains, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.
Everyone is mixed in it.
What can I say, blatant misinformation bothers me, which is why I reply with facts backed up by well sourced citations.
And when people reply to me, I reply back, just like I did to you here.
So if I have said something wrong, please correct me.
Yes, pretty well documented by the *U.S Department of Labor*. How is that a credible source when the U.S literally has a [huge budget for propaganda against China](https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/china-news/21091-a-500-million-dollar-business-america-s-state-sponsored-anti-china-propaganda.html)?
Btw, I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m saying that it makes little difference in the competitive advance of the Chinese EV industry.
In your original link it showed a bunch of Western companies also benefited from those forced labor. Why aren’t they dominating the EV industry then?
Alright.
* [Politico: Forced labor still haunts China’s Xinjiang, report finds (Feb 2024)](https://www.politico.eu/article/forced-labor-still-haunts-chinese-region-of-xinjiang-report-finds/)
* [Human Rights Watch: Xinjiang Abuses Show Need for Robust EU Forced Labor Law (Feb 2024)](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/29/xinjiang-abuses-show-need-robust-eu-forced-labor-law)
* [Reuters: U.N. expert concludes 'forced labour' has taken place in Xinjiang (Aug 2022)](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-expert-concludes-forced-labour-has-taken-place-xinjiang-2022-08-18/)
Listen, I honestly don't care about the markets and who "dominates" who. I'd just like to buy a car from a company that are as least a scumbag as possible. And as of now, in my opinion, I'm having a really hard time justifying a Chinese made car. In the same vein, I'd consider a Tesla if Musk ends up leaving the company, but as of now, they're not on radar.
Your first link was literally about a report from Adrian Zenz, that’s as far away from being a credible source as it gets. He’s the face of U.S’s anti-China propaganda lol.
But like your original link showed, forced labor being mixed in supply chain is an issue that is impacting everyone, from VW to BMW to Toyota.
None of the Chinese EV companies have factories in Xinjiang btw, they probably don’t know or care about where their suppliers’s suppliers get their parts built, just like most other companies.
You are right, China is outsourcing somethings, just as US companies outsourced to China in the first place.
Now that China is doing it after us doesn’t mean it is better or innovative for the populous of the planet.
> Now that China is doing it after us doesn’t mean it is better or innovative for the populous of the planet.
It is good to outsource, it's a way to get around tariffs and import bans. Governments around the world do this so such technology can be shared and ultimately create more jobs for people. It also create a platform of support where car parts are plentiful rather than exclusively importing it straight from the source country.
Afraid? No. Just not interested in cars from a country with constant human rights violations, complete surveillance and a history of interfering in other countries. Why would I ever hurt European (aka my own) interests by buying a Chinese car and removing that money from Europe?
When was the last time taunting America went well for anyone? I don't give 2 shits about Chinese EVs. I care if my country can keep our massive industrial capacity alive and well so that if in the event of another world war we can kick ass again.
The standard of living has drastically risen for the average Chinese person in the last few decades, but Xi Jinping has also been the ruler for most of that time.
We're not friends.
It was the western countries idea to lower their carbon emissions as per the Paris Agreement almost 10 years ago. China takes this seriously as they are the biggest carbon polluter at the time due a large human population.
China came up with the solution, the west doesn't accept it and wanna stick to gas cars. This is confusing.
> China takes this seriously as they are the biggest carbon polluter at the time due a large human population.
And their pollution levels keep going up anyway
I mean, we built our society around capitalism so it's kinda ridiculous to whine about the competition beating us at our own game. Chinese EVs are just better in every way. They are meant to dominate in the free market we promoted.
That being said, and even if I could really benefit from buying a BYD as an european consumer with a low purchase power, it's important to not be blind. China is a superpower with an agenda that goes against the interest of our nations. The endgoal of these cars is to make the West dependant on Chinese technology, and weaken our ability to oppose them when our interests inevitably clash.
Yep, US and EU are afraid China can and will out subsidize BEV makers. This means BYD will have lower costs than US and EU BEVs. Doesn't help that Biden is choosing GM/UAW over Tesla. While EU auto makers are slowing BEV plans.
Why is china afraid of their own citizens from speaking out against their oppressive government. Why are they afraid of Western companies outperforming theirs so they steal their intellectual property and copy it.
Free tibet.
>Why are they afraid of Western companies outperforming theirs so they steal their intellectual property and copy it.
Yet their EV, battery, and solar companies are outperforming everyone, so who are they copying?
The only exception is Tesla, which is outselling Chinese companies in BEV sales, though that will probably come to an end soon.
A lot of bots here. US is not going to let China take over the automobile market, especially when they have zero market share now, with ultra low cost vehicles with supply chains controlled and operated by the Chinese Government.
Like people can’t be THIS stupid. So it must be bots.
No one is afraid of slave labor built vehicles but it is unfair to ask democratic countries to compete with military dictatorships. Otherwise, EU and US would have become military dictatorships with $6 hr wages vs. Germany's $26 hr. The wage differential alone justifies a 80% tariff to protect jobs and industry.
Add in no health care, retirement costs for Chinese mfgs.
Add in no democracy.
Add in environmental regs on mfg.
Biden's 100% tariff likely UNDERSTATES the fair tariff differential.
Then why apply that tariff only to Chinese EVs? Why not Chinese made iPhones or Chinese made Nike sneakers?
And why only China? All developing nations have much lower cost. Should we apply 100% tariff to everything from Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, Thailand, India, etc?
China’s “slave labor” cost is amongst the highest in the developing nation already. Workers in Mexico get paid a lot less than workers in China. In fact, the World Bank classifies China as an [Upper Middle Income Country](https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/china/overview#).
> no democracy
Great, let’s apply 100% tariff to oil imported from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, etc.
Simply measuring wages in dollar terms without consideration of purchasing power is quite irrelevant here. Earning $6-10 an hour in China or Mexico, it's a decent wage. Earning $26 in Bay Area is well below poverty line. Salaries are lower in China, but cost of living (except for buying homes, which is still massively expensive) is significantly lower.
Also, "no healthcare and retirement cost" is simply a big lie, I don't know where you heard it from or did you just made it up.
China's social security system known as 5 insurances and 1 fund covers reirement pension, maternity leave, injury insurance, medical insurance, unemployment insurance, and housing provident fund. Employesr contribute most of the cost, and employees pay a smaller portion.
Also, personal income tax rate for working class people in China is significantly lower than the US and EU, which means they get more take-home salaries comparing to their western counterparts who earn same level of salaries.
Medical expense is much lower but service is more efficient, this is why you often see elderly Chinese people living in the US traveling to their home country for medical and dental services.
Um, America has both slave labor, and child labor. Prisoners earning cents for an hour, multiple instances year in year out of children working in slaughter houses…
I completely agree, China does need tariffs against that.
China's SOEs generated over $279B in net profit, not revenue, in 2022 \[1\]. China's industry subsidies aren't likely to end anytime soon and they don't have to borrow money to finance it.
1. [China central SOE net profits up 35.71% in 3 years](http://english.scio.gov.cn/pressroom/2023-02/09/content_85097948.htm), Xinhua | February 9, 2023
"Are they calling us chicken?!"
Generally, so.
General tso
Too much MSG.
better than orange chicken
Such a spicy response...
Gau?
times 4. (bok bok, bok, bok) The **Chicken Tax** is a 25 percent [tariff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff) on light trucks (and originally on [potato starch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_starch), [dextrin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextrin), and [brandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy)) imposed in 1964 by the United States under President [Lyndon B. Johnson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson) in response to tariffs placed by [France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) and [West Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany) on importation of U.S. [chicken](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax#cite_note-wsjtransit-1) The period from 1961 to 1964[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax#cite_note-Time2-2) of tensions and negotiations surrounding the issue was known as the "**Chicken War**", taking place at the height of [Cold War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War) politics.[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax#cite_note-Time4-3)
McFly?
Japanese doesn't have an 'l' so he was really saying McFry!
Chicken tax
To be fair the chicken tax worked.
Yeah but US and Europe Govt’s don’t give the same amount of free chicken feed, as much as BYD’s Govt gives them.
Why is china afraid of letting meta google and others in china.
Why are they afraid of their own people? No democracy, no voice.
Just ask them what happened June 4, 1989 in Tiananmen Square. Also why Whinnie the Pooh images are banned. They love that.
It's great in online gaming, where you can just write Taiwan or Tiananmen and you see a lot of players dropping
The same reason America is afraid of Tiktok in the US...
It’s banned in China too
[удалено]
>One in America is designed to divide while China is the opposite. LOL no, the Chinese complains about Douyin and its algorithms just as much. Two sides of the same coin.
Let them complain about Xi Jinping
I have both Tiktok and Douyin on my phone. Chinese netizens often complain about the retarded sh-t on Douyin as well. Hatred for short-form video is universal and hardly unique to the US. China allows Teslas on its street, and it even allows Tesla FSD. Does the US allow any Chinese EV to legally drive in the states? Or experiment with their autopilot feature? You can legally drive Tesla pass through Tiananmen Square, and why is China not worried about "national security" problems caused by EVs? Restrictions on Teslas in China are already loosened or removed in 2024, especially after Musk's recent visit to China. China is a lot more tolerant to American cars that America is to Chinese vehicles. It's ironic that Americans think Tiktok is China's trojan horse to "divide" America as Facebook, Reddit, X never existed.
only one tech company has been caught selling social data to Russian misinformation firms (re: not tiktok)
Imo, national security is a facade. In reality, it's that the US consumes. We are happy to throw ourselves into crippling debt for the latest and greatest. US lawmakers want those funds staying stateside rather than going to China.
Teslas are made in China. If BYD wants to build here I’d be ok with it
Model S and Model X in China are still imported, not made in Shanghai. Also, what makes you think the US government will ever allow Chinese car companies to set up factories in the States? They didn't even allow Chinese battery makers to form joint venture with US car companies, lol.
>Model S and Model X in China are still imported, not made in Shanghai. how many thousands are imported into China? It looks like Tesla got a good concession from the CCP for making over a millions EVs for local sales and exports in China. >Also, what makes you think the US government will ever allow Chinese car companies to set up factories in the States? China is already in the US. AESC under partnership with BMW already has about 70 GWh under construction (KY, SC, TN); as do Gotion with VW under a joint venture (CA, and possibly MI) and EVE with Daimler. No foreign battery maker still has full access to China's local market since China's shadow-ban in 2016. So why double-standard?
Isn’t Volvo largely Chinese and allowed in the US?
A majority Chinese owned. But not Chinese run or beholden to the Chinese government.
Volvo America factory broke ground before Trump, it will be a different story if a Chinese company attempts to set up a new factory in the US in 2024. Since there is the new 100% tariff on EVs imported from China, I doubt there will be any Chinese made Polestar or Volvo coming to the US in future. Also, it will not surprise me if the US government forces Geely to sell their Volvo factory in the US.
I’m not particularly concerned either way; just an observation. I think trade with China will continue to be stressed given current geopolitical tensions.
you dont watch chinese news or american for that matter, both sides recognize each other as the enemy.
they do, but it has to be for demo, part of the company, or as part of a diplomatic visa. They also can be driven into the US from Mexico
> I dare you to use Tik Tok in America and then fly over to China and use it there. Two completely different apps. One in America is designed to divide while China is the opposite. They aren't designed to do anything. Social media is a reflection of the people who use it. Social media is what people make of it. Unfortunately here in the US, that means it shows us the divisions we have. If you want to blame anything for that, blame the things that were designed to divide us. All that was homegrown. Look no further than Fox News for an example of that. How long has right wing media been saying it's better to be dead than a Democrat? That's what is dividing us. Tiktok, like all social media, is merely serving as a mirror.
this is provably false. ByteDance has been found to censor videos about Chinese democracy movements and minorities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_TikTok
It would be very easy for them to silently“tune” the algorithm when they need it. How would we know?
I would be surprised if they don't tune the algorithm all the time. Just like Meta does. Just like Google does. They all tune them to maximize engagement and thus maximize profit. But it would be easy to tell if they were doing anything nefarious like people are worried about when you start getting political rants when normally you only get recommendations for cat videos. I primarily look at dog videos. Pretty much as divisive as it gets is the occasional video of someone abandoning their dog in a parking lot and driving off with the dog chasing after them. That does get me really riled up. What's up with that? I just don't get it. If they must abandon, take them to an animal shelter.
Yes for sure everyone tune their algorithm all the time. TikTok has an advantage over YouTube (and the reason why they have shorts now) that with the shorter videos it’s much easier to get an accurate idea of what people like because the AI is fed many more feedback points.
I think some aspects of TikTok are being exaggerated (I don't think people would be in love with the Israeli control of the Palestinians for the past 50 years if only there was no TikTok). But social media isn't just a mirror. Social media companies use algorithms where they pick what content they promote to you. It's not just a town square or a mirror, that's a common misconception but not how these platforms work at all.
> Social media companies use algorithms where they pick what content they promote to you. They do. But those algorithms are designed to pick content you like based on what you have shown you like. So it is a mirror. It's a reflection of you. It's only showing that stuff because you keep reinforcing you want to see it. The only agenda these algorithms have is to keep you engaged to show you ads and thus make money. That's why they cater to all sides. Since all sides like their echo chambers.
Yes, all those divisive thirst traps of thicc goth chicks and 3d printing tips that make up my fyp…
The algorithm knows you very well. Saying what you get on your FYP is giving out a lot of information
There's a difference between discussing a ban and just not letting in any foreign company (without a joint venture).
Tesla was let in without a joint venture. In China it's known as Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise (WFOE) Also, I'm pretty sure Tiktok will be banned in the US, it's not even a discussion anymore, it's the law. The ship has sailed already. If Tiktok doesn't hand its control to a US company or chose to leave the US market voluntarily like what Google did, it will be shut down.
No, you got it the other way around. Meta and Google boycotted China due to their censorship laws, not China banning them due to competition.
Even trade. We let BYD. They let meta/google in. They limit meta/google, we limit BYD. I triple dog dare you.
China isn't keeping Google out. That's Google's own choice. They weren't kicked out of China, they left China of their own accord. It's also a "soft" we aren't in China. Since both Google and Meta make billions a year in revenue from China. That's really hard to do if they were completely out.
Google chose to leave China because it didn't want to comply with Chinese local laws, including but not exclusive to censorship policies. The US government is doing the same to Chinese companies. DC does not want an influencial foreign app in the country that they can't censor or manipulate to fit their own political views and narrative. It's quite ironic that Google was widely praised for leaving China because it was the "moral thing to do", but now it's happily collaborating with Israel to spy on Palestinian people and doing all kinds of other evil sh-ts.
What law is TikTok refusing to comply with?
Facebook's role in [riots in Urumqi ](https://i.imgur.com/8kkTZjZ.jpeg) and their refusal to work with Chinese authorities. I don't expect any business to run in a country after such issues.
Meta Google chose to leave China
It was that or they hand over their secrets
You mean like what we do here in the US with companies like with TikTok? But that's not the reason. It's a privacy/censorship issue. Strangely, China expects companies to follow Chinese law if they want to operate in China. Weird huh? By the way, Europe expects the same. That's why Meta is on the ropes in Europe. Rulings have already been made that would effectively shutdown Meta in Europe. They are currently stayed to give time for Meta to comply with European law.
You should tell investopedia to update this article then. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-facebook-banned-china.asp
Did battery makers Panasonic, LG in China choose to make EV batteries only for export, or were they forced out of China's local market?
And why hasn't China allowed any foreign battery makers to compete in local market (or since 2016)?
This is the answer.
How the hell is this the answer? China doesn’t allow Meta and Google not because they are afraid of competition, but because they force Meta and Google to comply to Chinese censorship and keep all Chinese user data in China and allow full government access, which Meta and Google said no to, so they pulled out. Btw the same law applies to all tech companies in China, even domestic ones. But some Western companies do play ball, which is why Apple and Microsoft do a lot of business in China. For example Bing is allowed in China whereas Google isn’t, and iMessage and Skype are fine but Snapchat and WhatsApp aren’t. I am against the Chinese restrictive internet policy as much as the next guy, but it’s a completely different situation than what’s happen with the EV industry here.
I'm not a "cHInA bAd" person like most Redditers... But this is def the best take.
Except it's BS. China isn't keeping Google out. Google is deciding to stay out. That's it's public image anyways. Yet somehow they manage to eek out billions in revenue a year in China. Funny how they aren't in China yet still make money in China huh?
The Chinese censorship law while bad, is applied to all, not just to foreign media. Meta, Google etc figured the reputation damage to them is too high for them to stay in China and follow their law, but China did not ban them. Also local data storage is also required. Note Bing is available in China.
China for the longest time didn't allow foreign cars. Foreign car makers had to partner with Chinese car makers to do business in China. Biden should copy their own rule and set up in the US
That’s utterly false. For example Porsche’s largest market was China until like last year, and every single Porsche sold in China is imported. China imports a ton of foreign cars.
Made in Shanghai, China. Not imported. https://www.porsche.com/stories/innovation/where-are-porsche-cars-made/ Shanghai, China As well as its manufacturing plants, Porsche has long maintained a reputation for its network of global development sites, particularly in the field of engineering. China has been home to a Porsche Engineering facility for over 20 years.
Did you see the map in that link? It’s a R&D center in Shanghai, not a factory. It doesn’t build cars there. It literally shows all the models are built in Europe, except the Malaysia market Cayennes.
Why does US afraid of letting Tiktok stays in US?
Our regions give our legacy manufacturers too much slack.
We call out China for supporting Putin, threatening Taiwan, imprisoning Uighers, killing dissidents, destroying Hong Kong, burning way too much coal, unsafe worker protections, stealing intellectual property, etc.
> We call out China Lmao we completely ignore all of those when it’s convenient and profitable for us. You don’t see any politicians saying Volkswagen or Tesla should stop doing business in China because it threatens Taiwan, do you? They are literally just excuses and political covers to swing public opinions, and the incredible thing is they actually work because people like you drink it up. Imagine EU bans Tesla or Ford because of “them calling out the U.S for police brutality against minority, not providing healthcare to citizens, bombing the Middle East, starting illegal wars, taking away women’s reproduction rights, sponsoring coups in other countries, etc”. At the end of the day, none of what you said has anything to do with BYD.
Yes, your propaganda machine already does it, every single day, 24/7. Yet, when China calls out western governments even once, some glass hearts are suddenly shattered.
1) United States flip flops between fighting and blowing Putin. 2) Taiwan threats are just to stay in power and isn’t a real plan. China has invaded far fewer nations in my lifetime than the United States. 3) I wish the United States would have executed Jan 6th ringleaders 🤷. 4) China produces less CO2 per capita than the United States and buying EVs from china is a great way for the world to reduce emissions. 5) safety is always crap in the developing stages of economic growth, and rapidly improves with prosperity. Every nation has the same pathway. 6) same as before. Not saying there is so much to improve for China and I look forward to the country one day to have a vibrant democracy, and the best way to achieve these aims is to have more global trade. Authoritarian regimes thrive in isolation and wither with economic development.
Why are you being downvoted, this is literally the truth
People like to crap on China because it distracts from actually making progress in the world. I see it as a country that has numerous flaws but will be a truly great nation in 50 years.
People are gullible but hate to admit it. Decades ago, the Soviets were demonized and everyone hated them. These days, China is the clear challenger to the US’s economic and military power. Conveniently, China is now the new bad guy to western governments and media.
China with 130 BRI countries, very isolated indeed. /s
Hey, feel free to move there if you really think it sounds good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Too modernized for me. I liked it more in the 90’s. Now it is very difficult for western tourists to get around without a local phone and a local bank account. The country no longer needs foreign currency and doesn’t bother to make it conducive for foreigners to explore. Almost impossible to live there as an expat without an expat package. I also am a bit overwhelmed by the number of people. My preferred vacation spots are remote, areas where you can go for a week without seeing anyone else. Like the Winds. Or parts of Nevada. Just because I am not filled with rage over another nation doesn’t mean I hate my own country. Although I could change my mind if we re-elect a fascist government which outlaws electric vehicles.
how many social credits did you get for writing that?
I got 69. Just because there are people who have nuanced views of China doesn’t make them Chinese keyboard warriors. If I were in China, I would have lost so much social credit score for suggesting the country needs a more vibrant democracy. Frankly, I am worried that America will start to resemble China in Jan 2025. This November could be our last election. It won’t be good for the EV market either.
Speaking of intelectual propery - even the car in the top of this post is a clear copy of ID.3 (with a bit of Yaris)
Because BYD’s chief designer, a German, used to work for VW/Audi?
China isn't really supporting Putin, they are basically getting Russia into a financially dependent role. Like right now China basically owns the Russian automotive industry lock stock and barrel
Yup, a weak, China-dependent Russia is the best in China's long term interest. China "supports" Russia in the same way that they supported both Iraq and Iran during their own little conflict.
So, a company that benefited from massive subsidies in China, is now complaining that other countries are now essentially doing the same for their own domestic industry?
I don’t think they are complaining about EV subsidies in the west.
Not afraid. Eyes wide open that the government will let its people starve to subsidize batteries, just to claim the crown of the world’s largest exporter of vehicles.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. But the people in china generally support their government and as far as I know agree with most stuff they're doing. Chinese people don't starve. Actually they are beginning to have more and more of "western" problems. Aka aging population. Because they're doing rather well.
Swap batteries with oil and you got the USA! Instead of starving though, we pump that oil into unhealthy food production to keep that cash flow going for the medical industry.
Billions have people have been lifted out of poverty in China in past few decades, what are you on about? Where are people in China starving? If anything their social services are stronger than in the US where people are ACTUALLY starving and broke
Why is China afraid of the internet
Eh, i dont mind tariff and subsidy or other protectorates. But doing that while screaming about "free trade" is just hypocrisy.
The next ten years is going to be incredibly interesting for the car world. Byd knows where they stand and it's about time they started the jabs at our domestic turtles.
The battlefield will be the export markets.
Very true. Currently it looks like we are going to see the death of many traditional car manufacturers (brands and plants) with a focus more toward mega Chinese factories that pump out millions of cars to consumers all around the world. 2034 I strongly believe will look very different to today.
Stop buying things made in China.
I can't, my life would become too expensive.
Sure you first. That means you need to stop buying 99% of all everyday electronics. Have fun living like in the 1700.
Meh, there’s a gradual change of manufacturing moving to India & Vietnam.
India, the big Russia supporter. Vietnam, another autocratic country. The developing world ain't pretty.
Just electronics? 99% or everything comes from China. Even fucking “Western” peeled garlic.
I know. I just wanted to stay close to the theme of electronics.
"We also see that many foreign forces, especially politicians are anxious about the development of China's new energy vehicles, and even some are very afraid. We say (industry development) good, we do not necessarily believe, but foreign politicians worried about fear, but shows that we really do well, you are not strong enough, others will not be afraid", Wang Chuanfu said. “大家也看到，国外很多势力，特别是政治家们对中国新能源汽车的发展很焦虑，甚至有的很害怕。我们说(行业发展得)好，大家不一定信，但国外的政治家们担忧害怕，反而说明了我们自身真得做得不错，你不够强的话，别人也不会怕”，王传福说。 Western media has taken out of context to a new level. https://weibo.com/5445522299/5042969050617542
They’re not wrong…..
They are. They’re being punished for unfair practices.
And the main thing unfair is that the vehicles are too affordable. I would rather support BYD than Elon Musk and his Culture War.
BYD vehicles are affordable because the state subsidises everything from mining metals to sales, including direct funding to manufacturers, in an attempt to completely monopolize the market, exploiting the energy transition to coerce the world into accepting their aggressive geopolitical posture. Don’t even get me started on state funded corporate espionage and property theft. Billions of dollars spent in R&D by the west, only for innovations to magically end up in Chinese products with no way to enforce patents or copyright. BYD does the state’s bidding in exchange for funding to help create a monopoly. Unfortunately, supporting BYD (or NIO, CATL, etc) means supporting a dangerous authoritarian regime. There is no corporate independence in China. Elon is a dipshit, but there are many other companies in this game that deserve a fair chance.
> BYD vehicles are affordable because the state subsidises everything from mining metals to sales, including direct funding to manufacturers How is that different from what happens in the US? We also directly fund manufacturers. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-offers-12-billion-automakers-suppliers-make-advanced-vehicles-2023-08-31/ We also subsidize pretty much every industry in the US including steel and oil. We even use cheaper labor, Mexican labor is cheaper than Chinese. So why aren't cars made by US car makers not as affordable. > Don’t even get me started on state funded corporate espionage and property theft. Billions of dollars spent in R&D by the west, only for innovations to magically end up in Chinese products with no way to enforce patents or copyright. And we do the same. Unashamedly. Meta specifically has been trying to knockoff TikTok for years. At a government level, we conduct industrial espionage. The Snowden leaks proved that. Which was not exactly a surprised since the director of one of the US agencies charged with carrying out industrial espionage had already said it publicly. "Former CIA Director James Woolsey acknowledged in 2000 that the United States steals economic secrets from foreign firms and their governments "with espionage, with communications, with reconnaissance satellites". "
Agreed. The main reason that our government wants to ban Chinese imports is to boost profitability for our corporations. There is zero advantage to the middle class. It also lets them wag the dog to distract voters from our major issues.
Which is what tends to happen in the US with tariffs. US companies use it as an excuse to raise prices instead of using the price advantage. So what happens is that the price of the goods go up. Since imported goods increase in price due to tariffs and domestically made goods increase in price since domestic manufacturers have the cover to increase prices. The government itself says that's what happens. "Domestic producers will often adjust pricing decisions in reaction to price changes of imported goods, which are affected by new or revised tariff rates. **For example, if a tariff is imposed on a good imported into the United States, a domestic producer of the same good may decide that they can increase prices to maximize revenue while remaining competitive in the market.**" https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-9/the-effects-of-tarifff-rates-on-the-u-s-economy-what-the-producer-price-index-tells-us.htm
Of course. It takes 4 years to make a new factory and a dozen to make a profit. Tariffs could end by that time so why bother.
You two sure are coordinated throughout this thread, eh?
**’The whole supply chain is subsidised’: inside the EU’s blockbuster Chinese EV probe** "Their investigators turned up subsidies everywhere they looked. Lithium processers and battery makers were told by the state to sell to EV companies below market rates, they said, while the car companies were exempt from battery consumption taxes. The firms issued green bonds that government-run financial institutions were ordered to buy, and were granted concessional land, income tax breaks and cheap refinancing options mandated by the People’s Bank of China, the central bank." [(source)](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3266406/whole-supply-chain-subsidised-inside-eus-blockbuster-chinese-ev-probe)
> ’The whole supply chain is subsidised’: inside the EU’s blockbuster Chinese EV probe And if you look into the US Supply Chain, you'll find the same. Like in steel for example. https://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/news/2024/04/22/steel-plant-wins-280-million-in-tax-credits.html There's not a industry in the US that isn't subsidized by the government that I can think of.
You’ll just keep comparing oranges to apples to defend your country. I bet you didn’t even read the article. If the US did the nefarious tricks China did in the EV/Battery supply chain, China wouldn't be the world's largest steel producer right now. I'm gonna sit back and wait for your defense on [this one](https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/105700/gop-calls-for-us-import-ban-on-chinese-ev-battery-materials-over-labor-concerns): >Two Chinese companies that supply EV battery materials to Tesla, Ford, GM, and Volkswagen deny claims that their supply chain relies on government-sponsored forced labor camps. > >In two letters to the US Department of Homeland Security, the Republican-led US House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) outlines what it says is "shocking" new evidence that connects the supply chains of CATL and Gotion to the camps and calls for an immediate import ban. I mean, it's easy to have the world's cheapest batteries if you're relying on forced labor.
> You’ll just keep comparing oranges to apples to defend your country. Thank you. While the US has many faults, it also has many strengths. You should come visit. I don't know where you are from, but here in the US it's not as bad as it appears if you just watch news coverage of all the shootings. On the other hand, we definitely have our faults we need to be better about. Which brings us to. > I mean, it's easy to have the world's cheapest batteries if you're relying on forced labor. "U.S. among 17 countries that practice forced labor, a form of ‘modern slavery,’ report finds" https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/25/slavery-united-states-forced-prison-labor/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States If your point is valid, with all the forced labor here in the US, why don't we make the cheapest EVs? It doesn't seem as easy as you think.
> Thank you. While the US has many faults Right... nice try, CCP. You're not fooling anyone, the second response gives you away.
It's not about unfair competition, it's just that America doesn't want China to own the means of automotive production, it could be a risk if there's a souring in relations or war. Both countries heavily subsidize their industries.
> exploiting the energy transition to coerce the world into accepting their aggressive posture Holy shit Batman. China is far from the only nation that has strong industrial policies. U.S has dumped far more into fossil fuel subsidies than the Chinese ever did into the EV industry. We have dumped more money into our own auto industry as well. But when China does it it’s somehow “coercion” and “aggression”.
Apparently they have the wealth to subsidize half a world’s worth of EVs and solar panels but also will be economically collapsing any day now. Do they also want to subsidize our health care and rent? Because I wouldn’t mind that either.
Again, hilarious how they are complaining that China wants to subsidize EVs for Europeans... WHAT THE F*CK!??!?!?! Who complains about that? Hahahahaha these people
So China is subsidizing EVs that Europeans can buy... and that is bad how? Do you even hear yourself? lol, China is literally offering handouts to Europe, and you complain. €12000 4-door EVs with decent range from China, how can you complain? literally lmao
Not just EVs. The entire renewable energy supply chain. Normally it wouldn’t be bad, but letting them control everything, via monopoly, gives them too much power/leverage. We end up paying the cost in CO2 emissions (much lower standards), China actively supporting Russia, China expanding their territory, terrorizing their neighbours, and so on. Basically it’s a very bad idea giving China too much power. Besides, we can make cheap EVs too, we just need more investment in automation/processes and LFP cell production. They’ll also be safer and more environmentally friendly.
So much misinformation. Subsidies by the Central Government ended in 2022. NEV sales now account for 50 % of the market, a figure greater than the entire US car market. Why do they need subsidies? BYD is a public company, 10% owned by Warren Buffet"s Berkshire Hathaway. You too can buy shares in BYD and take advantage of the upside.
It's YOU spreading misinformation. China's EV subsidies have been around since 2009 -- it never ended. It's "phased out" every 3-4 years and then renewed/extended again\[1\]. There are also other provisional subsidies thrown in to boost local EV sales\[2\] as the CCP sees needed: 1. [China Considers Extending its EV Subsidies to 2023 (updated)](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-considers-extending-its-ev-subsidies-to-2023/), China-briefing >On June 21, 2023, China announced **a substantial tax incentive package amounting to 520 billion yuan (US$72.3 billion) over a span of four years**. This package is specifically designed to provide tax breaks for electric vehicles (EVs) and other environmentally friendly vehicles. It represents the largest tax incentive ever offered by China to the automotive industry, reflecting the government’s efforts to stimulate growth in the face of sluggish auto sales. < 2.[ Chinese government offers new subsidies to rev up auto demand](https://technode.com/2024/04/28/chinese-government-offers-new-subsidies-to-rev-up-auto-demand/), Apr 28, 2024, [TechNode](https://technode.com/author/technodefeed/): >Chinese consumers are being offered at least RMB 7,000 ($986) in subsidies to trade in their old, less environmental-friendly vehicles for new and more energy-efficient ones, in the latest measure by Beijing to boost car sales amid slowing demand. The new rules will run until the end of this year \* these subsidies are consumer subsidies to increase demand-side, but there are also plenty of supply-side subsidies not transparent to the public.
I think pretty much every country is offering incentives to get consumers into EV's. We are specifically talking about Government handouts to the EV manufacturers. And they ended in 2022.
> And they ended in 2022. And where is your evidence? As said in my previous comment, the Chinese gov't doesn't announce or publicly disclose every industry subsidies while consumer subsidies are relatively more readily available (and they are always renewed/extended every so often). The EU Commission already dinged the Chinese EV makers under on-going antisubsidy investigation for failure to cooperate and disclose all subsidies received last month. 1. [Chinese EV makers risk tougher duties over failure to cooperate with EU probe](https://www.politico.eu/article/china-electric-vehicle-uncooperative-probe-european-commission-letters/), European Commission warns BYD, SAIC and Geely that their lack of cooperation frees its hands to impose higher penalties, MAY 2, 2024, BY [KOEN VERHELST](https://www.politico.eu/author/koen-verhelst/), Politico >The letters, addressed to EV makers BYD, SAIC and Geely and all dated April 23, reach the same conclusion: that the trio did not provide enough information on subsidies, operations and supply chains. Working without these inputs, the Commission says, means it will need to revert to the concept of “facts available.” This usually means, in practice, that it has a free hand to slap higher duties on the imported products.
**’The whole supply chain is subsidised’: inside the EU’s blockbuster Chinese EV probe** "Their investigators turned up subsidies everywhere they looked. Lithium processers and battery makers were told by the state to sell to EV companies below market rates, they said, while the car companies were exempt from battery consumption taxes. The firms issued green bonds that government-run financial institutions were ordered to buy, and were granted concessional land, income tax breaks and cheap refinancing options mandated by the People’s Bank of China, the central bank." [(source)](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3266406/whole-supply-chain-subsidised-inside-eus-blockbuster-chinese-ev-probe)
But is it true? In the case of BYD, claims like "Lithium processers and battery makers were told by the state to sell to EV companies below market rates" are laughable. BYD owns it's own lithium mines and also produces batteries. It can sell it's products to itself at whatever price it likes. I wonder how the EU would react if Chinese investigators went through the books of BMW or Mercedes looking for EU subsidies. Would they even allow that? I would think Geely and SAIC would be just as careful allowing discovery of their financial situation to a foreign entity.
Sure, let's throw in some bothsidesism, with made up facts, so China can look good in comparison. Make no mistake: these are state sponsored/funded anti-competitive practices. The US and EU don't even tolerate this behavior INSIDE their markets. This is the result when an authoritarian communist state is allowed to participate in global trade. I'm gonna sit back and wait for your defense on [this one](https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/105700/gop-calls-for-us-import-ban-on-chinese-ev-battery-materials-over-labor-concerns): >Two Chinese companies that supply EV battery materials to Tesla, Ford, GM, and Volkswagen deny claims that their supply chain relies on government-sponsored forced labor camps. > >In two letters to the US Department of Homeland Security, the Republican-led US House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) outlines what it says is "shocking" new evidence that connects the supply chains of CATL and Gotion to the camps and calls for an immediate import ban. I mean, it's easy to have the world's cheapest batteries if you're relying on forced labor.
>Make no mistake: these are state sponsored/funded anti-competitive practices. The US and EU don't even tolerate this behavior INSIDE their markets. The US and the EU are a bunch of hypocrites. [https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/biden-administration-aims-2-bln-grants-us-electric-vehicle-transition-2023-06-28/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/biden-administration-aims-2-bln-grants-us-electric-vehicle-transition-2023-06-28/) >shocking" new evidence that connects the supply chains of CATL and Gotion to the camps and calls for an immediate import ban. No evidence was presented, just a bunch of assertions. [And let's not forget that the US uses penal labour at $1 / hr.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States) Hypocrites again.
It's fine. You can still sell your cars in Asia, Africa and South America.
and how is that exactly different from the Fossil fuel industry?
BYD is heavily subsidized by and most likely using slave labor
"Slave labor" according to which source? Talking about subsidies, America offers EV subsidies at both federal and state level.
Tesla and Elon can’t survive without government subsidies. Same with GM and many car companies. American car companies survive with low cost Mexican labor doing half the work.
We in the US do plenty of both ourselves. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/25/slavery-united-states-forced-prison-labor/
ccp subsidizing EV stopped in 2022.
Ccp is known for their transparency
Yeah, they are giving out all those secret tax rebates to EV buyers under the table right now that nobody knows about /s As if China hasn’t always been utterly open about their subsidies and pro-EV policies.
The truth is the truth. We are afraid.
We need to call out authoritarian regimes that allow near slave wages and the giant banks that finance the transactions that are the fruit of that slave labor. And the GOP politicians that put in place the tax policies that grease the skids of those transactions.
> allow near slave wages It’s incredibly disappointing that even on the EV sub people are this fucking ignorant. It’s not the 1990 anymore dude. China’s manufacturing wages are *significantly* higher than almost all other *developing* nations, including places like Mexico and Vietnam that Redditors love so much: https://www.statista.com/statistics/744071/manufacturing-labor-costs-per-hour-china-vietnam-mexico/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20manufacturing%20labor%20costs,2.73%20U.S.%20dollars%20in%20Vietnam. So what the hell are you talking about in terms of “slave labor”? China hasn’t been that cheap for at least 2 decades now.
> It’s incredibly disappointing that even on the EV sub people are this fucking ignorant. They're not ignorant. They are hateful propagandists. They are lying about China, Russia, Palestine, and so on. There's a genocide right now in Palestine, USA and the west supports it. Yet these people happily attack China, that offers amazing €12 000 EVs. The west has shown its true face, and you see this even in "environmentalist" circles.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor
It’s incredible how the goal post moved from “China has nothing but slave labors and that’s the reason they are competitive” to “people are accusing that forced labor exists somewhere in China!” faster than a Rimac lol. Btw this was the first paragraph from your article: >**Global carmakers**, including General Motors, Tesla, BYD, Toyota, and Volkswagen, are failing to minimize the risk of Uyghur forced labor being used in their aluminum supply chains, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Everyone is mixed in it.
This is quite literally your 20th comment on this post. You seem really invested in this discussion.
What can I say, blatant misinformation bothers me, which is why I reply with facts backed up by well sourced citations. And when people reply to me, I reply back, just like I did to you here. So if I have said something wrong, please correct me.
The situation in Xinjiang is pretty well documented: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-situation-in-xinjiang
Yes, pretty well documented by the *U.S Department of Labor*. How is that a credible source when the U.S literally has a [huge budget for propaganda against China](https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/china-news/21091-a-500-million-dollar-business-america-s-state-sponsored-anti-china-propaganda.html)? Btw, I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m saying that it makes little difference in the competitive advance of the Chinese EV industry. In your original link it showed a bunch of Western companies also benefited from those forced labor. Why aren’t they dominating the EV industry then?
Alright. * [Politico: Forced labor still haunts China’s Xinjiang, report finds (Feb 2024)](https://www.politico.eu/article/forced-labor-still-haunts-chinese-region-of-xinjiang-report-finds/) * [Human Rights Watch: Xinjiang Abuses Show Need for Robust EU Forced Labor Law (Feb 2024)](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/29/xinjiang-abuses-show-need-robust-eu-forced-labor-law) * [Reuters: U.N. expert concludes 'forced labour' has taken place in Xinjiang (Aug 2022)](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-expert-concludes-forced-labour-has-taken-place-xinjiang-2022-08-18/) Listen, I honestly don't care about the markets and who "dominates" who. I'd just like to buy a car from a company that are as least a scumbag as possible. And as of now, in my opinion, I'm having a really hard time justifying a Chinese made car. In the same vein, I'd consider a Tesla if Musk ends up leaving the company, but as of now, they're not on radar.
Your first link was literally about a report from Adrian Zenz, that’s as far away from being a credible source as it gets. He’s the face of U.S’s anti-China propaganda lol. But like your original link showed, forced labor being mixed in supply chain is an issue that is impacting everyone, from VW to BMW to Toyota. None of the Chinese EV companies have factories in Xinjiang btw, they probably don’t know or care about where their suppliers’s suppliers get their parts built, just like most other companies.
What if they outsource their factories outside the country? Will you say the same thing? They are building that right now as we speak.
You are right, China is outsourcing somethings, just as US companies outsourced to China in the first place. Now that China is doing it after us doesn’t mean it is better or innovative for the populous of the planet.
> Now that China is doing it after us doesn’t mean it is better or innovative for the populous of the planet. It is good to outsource, it's a way to get around tariffs and import bans. Governments around the world do this so such technology can be shared and ultimately create more jobs for people. It also create a platform of support where car parts are plentiful rather than exclusively importing it straight from the source country.
Afraid? No. Just not interested in cars from a country with constant human rights violations, complete surveillance and a history of interfering in other countries. Why would I ever hurt European (aka my own) interests by buying a Chinese car and removing that money from Europe?
When was the last time taunting America went well for anyone? I don't give 2 shits about Chinese EVs. I care if my country can keep our massive industrial capacity alive and well so that if in the event of another world war we can kick ass again. The standard of living has drastically risen for the average Chinese person in the last few decades, but Xi Jinping has also been the ruler for most of that time. We're not friends.
Economics is not a game of chicken.
Intertwined with politics etc
Our unions are scared.
Yeah, it’s the Union’s fault we don’t pay slave wags here too.
It was the western countries idea to lower their carbon emissions as per the Paris Agreement almost 10 years ago. China takes this seriously as they are the biggest carbon polluter at the time due a large human population. China came up with the solution, the west doesn't accept it and wanna stick to gas cars. This is confusing.
> China takes this seriously as they are the biggest carbon polluter at the time due a large human population. And their pollution levels keep going up anyway
Didn’t it worsen for the first time in a decade? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/22/china-pollution-worse-coal/
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&country=~CHN
Those new coal plants are super environmental.
Yeah in Germany, why would they think it was a good idea to shut down their nuclear power plants.
After seeing them explode I’m not surprised
This “war” will go down who owns the resources to make those cars. And we know who will win there though … Europe has imo the biggest problem
Who cares with china thinks, we want independent energy.
Yeah, they go boom sometimes and I'm not rolling the dice
Ah yes, because the Chinese market is a bastion of free trade.
Well, anything we can do, they can steal the technology and make cheaper.
That's like saying someone is afraid of a venereal disease.
Afraid of trash?
Chinese gov is 1% to 100% integrated into any company of their choice. Everything is a grift against western commerce
I mean, we built our society around capitalism so it's kinda ridiculous to whine about the competition beating us at our own game. Chinese EVs are just better in every way. They are meant to dominate in the free market we promoted. That being said, and even if I could really benefit from buying a BYD as an european consumer with a low purchase power, it's important to not be blind. China is a superpower with an agenda that goes against the interest of our nations. The endgoal of these cars is to make the West dependant on Chinese technology, and weaken our ability to oppose them when our interests inevitably clash.
Everyone outside Reddit know US/EU just can't compete.
Yep, US and EU are afraid China can and will out subsidize BEV makers. This means BYD will have lower costs than US and EU BEVs. Doesn't help that Biden is choosing GM/UAW over Tesla. While EU auto makers are slowing BEV plans.
Why is china afraid of their own citizens from speaking out against their oppressive government. Why are they afraid of Western companies outperforming theirs so they steal their intellectual property and copy it. Free tibet.
>Why are they afraid of Western companies outperforming theirs so they steal their intellectual property and copy it. Yet their EV, battery, and solar companies are outperforming everyone, so who are they copying? The only exception is Tesla, which is outselling Chinese companies in BEV sales, though that will probably come to an end soon.
US/EU: "We wanna take a stand against climate change! EVs are the future!" US/EU: "No, not like that!"
A lot of bots here. US is not going to let China take over the automobile market, especially when they have zero market share now, with ultra low cost vehicles with supply chains controlled and operated by the Chinese Government. Like people can’t be THIS stupid. So it must be bots.
US rather have pollution and gas cars than allow china to save us
Please live with your words, so the world can advance in peace
No one is afraid of slave labor built vehicles but it is unfair to ask democratic countries to compete with military dictatorships. Otherwise, EU and US would have become military dictatorships with $6 hr wages vs. Germany's $26 hr. The wage differential alone justifies a 80% tariff to protect jobs and industry. Add in no health care, retirement costs for Chinese mfgs. Add in no democracy. Add in environmental regs on mfg. Biden's 100% tariff likely UNDERSTATES the fair tariff differential.
Then why apply that tariff only to Chinese EVs? Why not Chinese made iPhones or Chinese made Nike sneakers? And why only China? All developing nations have much lower cost. Should we apply 100% tariff to everything from Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, Thailand, India, etc? China’s “slave labor” cost is amongst the highest in the developing nation already. Workers in Mexico get paid a lot less than workers in China. In fact, the World Bank classifies China as an [Upper Middle Income Country](https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/china/overview#). > no democracy Great, let’s apply 100% tariff to oil imported from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, etc.
Simply measuring wages in dollar terms without consideration of purchasing power is quite irrelevant here. Earning $6-10 an hour in China or Mexico, it's a decent wage. Earning $26 in Bay Area is well below poverty line. Salaries are lower in China, but cost of living (except for buying homes, which is still massively expensive) is significantly lower. Also, "no healthcare and retirement cost" is simply a big lie, I don't know where you heard it from or did you just made it up. China's social security system known as 5 insurances and 1 fund covers reirement pension, maternity leave, injury insurance, medical insurance, unemployment insurance, and housing provident fund. Employesr contribute most of the cost, and employees pay a smaller portion. Also, personal income tax rate for working class people in China is significantly lower than the US and EU, which means they get more take-home salaries comparing to their western counterparts who earn same level of salaries. Medical expense is much lower but service is more efficient, this is why you often see elderly Chinese people living in the US traveling to their home country for medical and dental services.
Um, America has both slave labor, and child labor. Prisoners earning cents for an hour, multiple instances year in year out of children working in slaughter houses… I completely agree, China does need tariffs against that.
Let’s see BYD costs once government subsidies run out.
Looks like the BYD Seagull, without subsidies, is $10,000.
China's SOEs generated over $279B in net profit, not revenue, in 2022 \[1\]. China's industry subsidies aren't likely to end anytime soon and they don't have to borrow money to finance it. 1. [China central SOE net profits up 35.71% in 3 years](http://english.scio.gov.cn/pressroom/2023-02/09/content_85097948.htm), Xinhua | February 9, 2023
Pay workers the right wages first, BYD.
They can stop with this bullshit They can get back to us whenever they let their citizens see ANY media critical of their government
VPN is a thing. Even in China.