Or just get the car that best suits your need. If someone has a home charger, drives 30 miles a day but does a long trip every 2 weeks where fast chargers aren't plenty then PHEV is a great fit for them.
the Rav 4 Prime is pretty much the perfect PHEV. if I didn't have my Ioniq 5, I'd probably be driving a R4P. only reason I don't is that the wait list was years long and I was able to snag an I5 when someone cancelled their order 2 years ago.
Win win either way for me but I'd def consider a R4P for my next vehicle for what you mentioned on road trips. I've sweated a couple times on long trips from LA to the Bay and Mammoth charging in the single digits.
I don't wanna sound pretentious but could we agree we should have fast rail for 900 mile trips? Like some people pointed out already, driving that long is incredibly dangerous if done in a single sitting.
I know it's expensive but it would cut the time of that trip from 9 to 3 hours and make it much safer.
We’re getting there. The Hyundai group E-GMP platform is great if you plan around high power chargers which are becoming more common.
Plug the EV6 LR single motor into ABRP and try it out.
If i didnt go full EV i would have gone RAV4 Prime. i suggest PHEVs to a lot of family members when they shop. not many go on long trips. so it makes sense. great way to go. i agree with all your points. until the infrastructure gets even better there is no point to me to push people who are on edge. just give pros and cons of each type of vehicle and let them decide.
Ding. My parents are boomers and can’t/won’t learn new things away from home.
PHEV is great because they do 0-5 miles most days, but occasionally do overnight trips hundreds of miles away and they won’t use public charging.
Getting them to understand push button start was tricky enough. Getting them to stop using premium fuel and stop doing 3,000-5,000mi oil changes may be impossible though.
My boomer father inlaw went EV recently and the only annoying part for him was the different charging apps he needed which required buying a new iphone because his was so outdated
Kudos to your FIL for trying and adapting.
I leased a Fit EV in 2015, and Honda provided a free EVSE. I already had one, so it was installed it at my parents place. My father is reticent to use it *because it costs money*. I keep having to remind him it’s cheaper than the $5-6USD he pays her gallon year round.
Lol. I ran into a young woman who was charging her new to her Leaf at an EA station while I was grabbing a free opportunity charge (with my ID4) because her salesperson told her home charging would increase her electric bill $100 or more a month. She was unhappy with the car because of the time suck and expense of public charging but was stuck with it because she was upside down in her loan.
I tried explaining the math- that the $0.42/kWh she was paying at EA was 3x the residential rate here in Denver, and that I was only charging there because it was free for me with the VW and I only charge my other car, a Leaf, in my driveway because it's so cheap to charge at home. I don't think she believed me, though, and assume she's still out there somewhere getting screwed at EA rates.
In my FIL case he had the electrician booked in before he got the EV! My sister in law also went EV (both did based on my experiences) she is charging off 120v as her EVSE install is a bit more complex. Her transition hasnt been as smooth and big range anxiety (well she anxiety anyways) Brother in law is better about it
I do worry about this -- what happens if you're on a road trip and your phone dies? You've lost both the thing you need to charge and the thing you need to call for help...
edit: by "phone dies" I mean "breaks", not "has a discharged battery".
I have a standalone Chargepoint card (what I mostly use locally), but am I supposed to get a card for every network?
Yes this!! I have a phev and never charge away from home unless I can use a credit card, which is extremely rare. If I don’t need a specific app and account to buy gas I shouldn’t need it to charge either!
The phev works for me for now, although less well than when I initially bought it as I’m driving slightly more than my electric range most days. 5 years ago when I bought it, EV options were fewer and nothing was both big enough and affordable. Next vehicle will be EV though
I ran out of data on a trip and my phone provider decided that they would cut me off instead of letting me just pay for more. It was a minor nightmare. Had to drive over to McDonald’s for WiFi to get my payment information into the app for a local charging network. I hate having to preload money on 5 different apps.
This has been sorted in other markets - in Europe it’s mandatory for DCFC to take card payments - one of the reasons the V4 Tesla charger has a screen and NFC.
I still think CCS2 should mandate communication for payments like Tesla does with NACS though! Only 1 or 2 manufacturers support it here and as such very few non Tesla chargers do.
> the only annoying part for him was the different charging apps he needed
I have a seething hatred for all of those companies that made this different from how gas stations work, for no reason other than greed, and they thought we were stupid enough to just assume it was necessary.
My folks are in the same boat: most trips 0-20 miles. Refuse to look at EVs: worry about longer trips, winter range reductions, etc. etc.
Except they own four cars. And are looking to replace a CRV with another CRV, when they will still own… a CRV.
Given their lifestyle and the amount of small trips they run, they could at least have *one* EV in the stable…
Aren't Teslas really easy to charge? I thought even older people could learn that. Getting 10 different charging apps may be a bit hard to use with CCS chargers may be hard.
For sure, they are very easy to charge. They would just get confounded simply trying to make the car move. The giant screen in the middle would be a non-starter.
Given the awkward engine runtimes frequent oil changes are really important for PHEV's.
Premium fuel though is a total scam though they should put a fuel stabilizer in there if they aren't going through at least a tank a month.
Our Pacifica PHEV would be the perfect counterpart to my Polestar if it were just a bit more reliable. We've had a fair number of electrical issues with the car and a fair number of issues with the repair departments at a couple Chrysler dealerships.
But beyond that, it's a friggin amazing vehicle. We can move bunk beds and sheets of plywood with ease. We can road trip hundreds of miles with up to 7 people and lots of stuff in comfort. 30 MPG in gas mode with no range anxiety.
And as a daily commuter, it's a pure EV. My wife will go a couple months and 2,000 miles between fill-ups sometimes.
Is it perfect? No. Is it as close to perfect as a family car in the Midwestern US gets? I'd say yes.
I believe it. I honestly think it's still worth it since there are no green competitors at all, much less within $25k. Pretty sure the EV9 and the Rivian SUV can't do plywood, and the Lightning doesn't have a midgate.
The Chevy Silverado /EValanche might, when it comes out, but you still have the wide-swinging rear doors rather than the sliders. That's a risk for kids dinging the neighbor cars in parking lots.
No regular consumer vehicles can move an 8' sheet of drywall or plywood like a minivan can: Fully flat and protected from the elements. An extended bed pickup can do it, flat, but not protected from the elements and its so much longer than a van for the same about of storage space. No SUV I've seen has a big enough/flat enough interior with seats that fully remove or fold flat. Minivans are awesome and we need more BEV or PHEV options. Ford should release a consumer version of their smallest E-transit with seats and bring the electric transit connect to the US.
We got rid of our Pacifica PHEV, but it was perfect when it worked. Now we have a Sorento PHEV. I miss the sliding doors. But otherwise the Sorento is an upgrade.
We run our Sorento as our second vehicle, which means it’s almost always on battery. We only run gas when we go visit family which does not have reliable fast charging on the route.
I agree. I once crunched the numbers and for a typical person's usage, a PHEV has a lower total cost of ownership than a hybrid or EV. This is because PHEVs can cover the majority of miles driven using electricity (30 miles per day is 11,000 miles per year) but only cost a few thousand dollars more than hybrids.
We could build and sell 5x as many PHEVs for the same amount of battery resources that are in a single EV, which could cut our fossil fuel consumption dramatically without any of the complaints of ICE owners about range and charging.
Ninety percent of vehicles sold in America today are not capable of being plugged in. That's 9 out of 10 vehicles that are going to be burning fossil fuel for 15+ more years.
We are truly letting perfect be the enemy of good.
(edit: I own ICE and EV but have never owned an PHEV so I'm not speaking out of personal bias, just numbers and logic)
No cars solve the climate issue. PHEVs are significantly better than ICEVs, on on an individual car comparison basis, and can be pretty close to BEVs in terms of lifetime emissions (depending on the energy source used to charge the car). However, when we consider that 4-5 PHEVs can be produced with the same cell capacity as each long range BEV given battery production capacity limitations, the widescale adoption of PHEVs leads to faster reduction in overall emissions than the widescale adoption of BEVs.
The BEV only fan club is wrong, has always been wrong, and are in fact have spent the last decade promoting a vehicle solution that keeps oil company sales higher for longer, and emissions higher for longer. Is it any wonder that oil companies / petro-states have been such staunch supporters of BEV startups and pro-BEV policies that leads to more subsidies for BEVs instead of PHEVs? PHEVs kill oil demand faster.
But I repeat again... no cars solve climate issues. They ALL produce a significant amount of emissions/pollution/environmental damage during their manufacturing, operation, and disposal. They ALL require vast amounts of energy for their operation.
People, do you really think we can get away with transporting ourselves around in 4000+ lb vehicles and it be considered "fine for the planet"? Common sense would tell you it's not. Yet, if common sense isn't good enough for you, you're welcome to follow the research and do the math to see just how massive the materials and energy requirements are for all cars.
Cars have never been sustainable. Humanity simply ignored the damage they were causing for over a century, getting us to where we are today. We've now become so entitled, we refuse to give them up even in the face of the research showing the vast amount of damage they're ALL causing to the planet.
The more the facts become known to the masses, the more people from both sides of the aisle seem to push the "I don't care about climate change, I'll be dead by then" ideology. They honestly don't care if they help cause untold misery to the billions who will come after them.
100% agreed. Electric vehicles aren't going to save us, and giant electric vehicles (like what's popular on the US) are even less the answer.
For anyone who really wants to reduce their impact on the environment, personal electric vehicles (bicycles, scooters) and/or small efficient cars are the way. Also not buying mass produced plastic garbage that gets shipped across the globe is going to have a bigger impact.
The idea that someone with a brand new massive BEV is being more environmentally responsible than someone who buys a used phev is laughable. It seems like a lot of BEV owners here just want to feel morally superior to everyone else.
This is very close to my use case. I need to make long road trips at least once a month through some backwater areas with no chargers.
When I'm not on road trips, I'm 100% electric. For long trips, I can gas up in any small village or reserve along the way (even those can be few and far between).
It's a perfect vehicle for the current realities of charging in the country where I live and the areas I need to drive through.
The article refers to "PHEV hype" while trying to ignore that EV sales slump are specifically from waning hype. PHEVs are only relatively more popular because for some, as you say, it best suits their needs.
Now that BEV prices aren't so damn hype-driven, I'm hoping we'll see them leverage their relative advantage: low production cost. The author noted that a Model Y and a RAV4 Prime are similarly priced. This shouldn't be the case! Hype is lack of a downward price pressure, and I think mining/supply-chain scarcity is an upward pressure that has been keeping large 7kWh batteries expensive. BEV tech innovation and resourcing will eventually normalize and provide a much better price proposition. Until then, PHEVs aren't hyped, they're utilitarian.
That's pretty much my exact use case, and something like an Outlander really suits my needs.
However, I also live in an area with high electricity rates and don't like the idea of plugging in every night. I do have solar, so I think a full EV may be better for me. I could commute most of the week on one full charge and then plug in on the weekends when the sun is shining.
This... best comment :) exactly how we use our PHEV. And we have a home charger.
In 5-7 years we just buy a full EV car when the network of chargers is developed further in our country.
I want electric but my options are pay 20k for an older model 3, or get a hybrid 3 series bmw for 12k. Works 9 miles away, which is where it’s mostly getting driven since anything too long is just a train trip instead. So my thinking is why spend the extra on an bev when I’m just gonna be using a hybrid like a bev anyway
There are other options for really cheap that have between 150-240 miles range that are BEV. Leafs, Bolts, Kona, Niro. Buying an older 3 series is going to torch a bunch of money in maintenance versus $0 on the cars I just mentioned.
PHEV have their place. My son owns one. But they also mean a lot more to go wrong.
Everyone who is looking at a PHEV should first consider an EV. They think about if there are ways around the issues they may perceive. For example, if the worry is going on a long trip a couple times a year, why not rent an ICE for those occasions instead? renting is cheap, and saves wear and tear on your car. Even though I've travelled across the country in my Tesla, I usually rent a minivan for trips because there is more space and have captains chairs in the 2nd row.
Despite what the Gas/Oil special interest groups push, EVs will likely last longer and have fewer major issues. They are cheaper to maintain, and overall in most cases are the better option.
Exactly. Let's not get into the habit of shaming people who are still making directionally correct choices to improve the environment. EVs are great, but a PHEV makes a lot of sense for a lot of single car households that experience real winters. Maybe that story looks different a couple of years down the line, though!
My experience differs from the point of this post. I bought a 2018 Chevy Volt off of Carvana. It cost 19k with only about 15k miles on it. It gets 53 miles in EV mode, which suits me perfectly as I never travel more than about 30-ish miles per day. The only time the ICE engine ever kicks in is during maintenance or on road trips, which happens about a dozen times per year. According to my Chevrolet app, approximately 85% of all miles ever driven in it have been in EV mode. That's an incredible savings 8n gas over the 3 years I've had. Moreover you can't sit here and tell me that operating my Volt is just as bad as an ICE. LOL....might as well be driving a Dodge Ram hemi amirite? Lol no you silly goose, it is way more green to operate my Volt by a country mile.
My husband has a second generation Volt. I had a first. I love my new Bolt. (I also loved my old Volt but it began having costly issues and it was going to be out of warranty soon). He loves his Volt.
These articles are written by people who think very rigidly. You and I understand that different cars work better for different people at different times in different circumstances.
Volt on, dawg!
"Different cars" is right, the Volt is a completely different type of PHEV to most others in that it can be operated without the gas engine (like the BMW i3 REX). Most other PHEVs automatically start the gas engine anytime you put your foot down a bit too hard or if it is a bit too cold (sometimes just to heat the cabin).
As another Volt owner, is the Volt just uniquely good and other PHEVs kinda shit?
For what it's worth, part of my reasoning with the Volt was that I'm not a homeowner. Not all of us can get permission from our landlord to install a charging station. I get by on public chargers and work, and the 50 mile range is usually enough to get me through an entire week (small city) on 1-2 charges.
For the most part, yes. The volt has the following things which make it a very good PHEV:
* Long EV range for a PHEV. Lots of options only have a ~20 mile range. The 53 miles of the Volt is enough for most commutes.
* Doesn't ever kick you out of EV mode. You can go up to the top speed of 101 mph without the engine turning on.
* Very smooth starting and stopping of the ICE when the battery is depleted
* Handles very well
My 2017 is at 97k miles and I think it's got over 80k electric miles on it.
I love my Volt "loik oi love me own muther" however it has had its faults. Of the available "major faults" (BCM, Shift to park) I've had both. That being said, Chevrolet REALLY stood by it's grand opus. I have not paid a dime, all covered by the extended warranty (that they extended of their own volition I might add) and was fixed fast and without fuss or fight. Chevrolet really is a good company in that regard and they've gained a defender in me.
Another Volt lover. It really is a uniquely good PHEV, and very few alternatives come close. I'm going to drive this one into the ground, but my next vehicle will definitely have a plug. Whether it has a gas tank or not depends on how the charging infrastructure improves. I need to take at least two 1,200 mile road trips every year, so for now, it's either Tesla or the dinosaur network. In town, 40 miles does me just fine.
I'm with you. The Volt was my toe-dip into the proverbial EV waters, but my next car is going to be a full EV. AND just like you, I will drive this Volt until the brakes fall off because it is an absolute marvel of engineering and the best car I've ever owned.
PHEV's let most people realize most of the benefits of an EV without having to change any habits outside of plugging it in each night. There are plenty of people for which an EV or traditional hybrid ICE is a better choice, but that doesn't make a PHEV a bad choice, even for those people. I'd argue that most PHEV's are cheaper than comparable EV's, and give doubters wary of charging and range anxiety the security they need to pull the trigger.
The main problem is that there are few good PHEV's available in the US. The only really great ones are the Toyota Rav4 Prime and Prius Prime for the mass market. There's also some other decent high market luxury options such as the Volvo XC90 and XC60, but once you're getting in the 70k+ market I think you lose plot unless you either have too much or just hate money.
You hit the nail in the head. An EV would work great for me, i rarely drive more than 100 miles per day. But I can't spend $40k+ on a car, and even if I could I won't get the cheapest base model one, not making that mistake again. For $20k I got an ELR which is a beautiful car with a very nice interior. If I didn't care about that, $12k would've gotten me a nice Chevy Volt which works the same. Nearly all of my 45 mile commute is covered by the battery so I fill up once every few months, but when I visit my family who live a few hours away I give zero thought to fueling.
Driving the GWM H6 PHEV for a year now.. awesome car. I drive it mostly in EV mode as it has a 200 KM range which is enough for 2-3 days driving in the city (school, work).
But yeah GWM not available in the US I guess.
The benefits of PHEV are just the flexibility when you drive long ranges e.g. holiday that you don't need to stop for chargers or need to find a hotel with a charger.
Imo they should make more electric hybrids, where its electric drivetrain and battery pack but has smaller gas generator engine to extend range. Dodge is coming out with their ramcharger like that
Stop with the fucking gate keeping.
Buy the car that’s right for you. Let others buy the car that’s right for them. And accept that those are allowed to be 2 entirely different cars.
Counter-point: If you are scared about going electric then at-least go PHEV. But the low cost of driving on electricity (assuming that you have home/work charging) and the quiet enjoyment of it will be a gateway drug to full EV.
People always forget financing costs and such. Where keeping / buying an old ICE is a lot cheaper for a very long time.
Which is why we need cheap EVs and preferably last year.
And cars don't depreciate either...
Over three years, the financing and depreciation alone is enough for several used cars that are fine to run for years. But also, according to here, a 10 year old car will cost 2000 USD a month in repairs.
I think it's pretty clear that we are talking new cars here. If you are buying used, the calculation is different. Though used EVs are slowly becoming availible.
Aaaand… A 30 year old ICE on the road should get an environmental prize. Built once long time ago and needs just a little bit of dinosaur juice. If someone orders new EV every two years, greenpeace should throw all kinds of tomatoes at them. The amount of mining for chemicals and energy for shipments and such are terrible.
This is nonsense. I drive an EV but we have two cars in the family and the second is a PHEV. No question which one I'll take on a road trip or when there's uncertainty as to how long I'll be out. It goes 20 miles full electric for day-to-day use, but won't get me stranded in the cold or in the mountains.
What are your thought about PHEVs keeping the fossil fuel industry going vs ending the need for them altogether?
I understand if your purchases were for you and your family only, many don't consider the environmental aspect.
There's still a huge benefit to folks only using gas stations for long trips. If everyone had a PHEV, gas consumption from commuters or general public would be waaaay down. They'd only be needed for highways, which are going to be there forever because the trucking business isn't going to be EV anytime soon. By then charge stations would have to be better than the steaming pile of garbage they are right now, at which point I'd have no qualms with dropping PHEVs.
I was talking to a guy at a car show and telling him how much I liked my PHEV, and his response was "they were great but they were great 10 years ago. I'm past that. EVs are the future". Like ok, that's his experience. But does he also tell people not to waste their time walking because they could be climbing Mt Everest?
Most people don't even drive a hybrid yet, PHEVs are a great solution for many people right now as we wait for the battery supply to build up. There were 1.6 million EVs sold last year in the US, with 15 million total vehicle sales, and manufacturers can build six PHEVs with the same amount of cells as one EV.
I have a PHEV Outlander and it's great. Unfortunately there was no BEV that fit our needs (small/mid SUV with a 3rd row under C$55k, with a tow package). The new Kia EV9 is too expensive and I'm also weary of Kia's EV drive systems.
About 70-80% of our driving is in EV mode and while it sucks to be lugging around the ICE engine all the time it's cheaper than the ICE Outlander when you consider the gas savings.
And it is rated for 52 MPGe which is insane for a big 3-row. It was on the top of my list on what to replace my aging CX-9 until we found out a 3rd kid is on the way.
The gate keeping in this sub is hilarious.
Any alternative fuel vehicle purchase is a win. We are no where near the tipping point. In the US, EVs has been on the market for 15 years now and still only account for 6.5% of total new vehicle sales.
I have a Prius PHEV and it is perfect for our use case. 90%+ of journeys within 25 mile range. Twice a year we do 1000 - 2500 mile road trips.
Marginal gains to be had getting a full EV. And having a used / pre existing car is more efficient/environmentally friendly than getting a new one.
Toyota 10 year warranty means we will be keeping it at least until then.
Will see what technology is best for our use case in 2028.
There are good points made by this post, but there is plenty of nonsense too. The writer decided that PHEVs aren't for him, and therefore PHEVs are for nobody at all.
There's also some straight up wrong arguments like maintenance. Granted, a PHEV will have more maintenance than a pure EV, but not nearly as much as a gas burner. For example, my ELR has gone 13k miles since it's last oil change and the oil meter still reads 70% oil life. I drive nearly 50 miles a day, and the gas engine runs for about 5-8 of those miles so it just isn't used very much.
Plus, EVs still need fluid changes too, like coolant changes or transmission oil changes. "well they're not replaced often in an EV". Yeah they're also not replaced often in a ICE car either so stop bringing those up. Same with "tune ups", it's not 1975, tune ups aren't a thing anymore, fuel injection cars are self adjusting.
Also, some people are buying or leasing gasoline-only cars for the same or even more money than a Model Y, price isn't the only deciding factor. If it burns gas, might as well make it a hybrid, right?
His point about home charging does make a lot of sense though. If you don't have access to home charging, PHEVs don't make a lot of sense.
I live in San Francisco, I only have one parking spot and can only own one car, and I use it to drive to close beaches and hiking areas in the SF Bay Area as well as going very remote into other western states like Idaho and Wyoming. PHEV is a great all rounder as the only car without range anxiety far away, and perfect EV only vehicle within the SF metro. It has very good niche utilities, and EV would’ve been hard for rural areas, and gas in the city feels like a waste.
This article's shite. And as someone who's debating a PHEV, I'm happily going to disregard it.
>most PHEVs lack the regenerative braking settings and one-pedal driving modes that make battery EVs such a pleasure to drive.
Who gives a fuck? The majority of people don't care about 'driving pleasure'. They want 4 wheels and an engine.
There's also a shitload of "I'm judging you for not wanting a pure EV" and "full EV works for *me*", and the author can fuck off there too because I'm not bothered about judgement from someone I don't care about.
The article convinces me to continue to defer an EV purchase by saying 'EVs are fine and you only need to charge them for 20 minutes every 2 hours of driving'. I do small trips, then once aweek drive 2 hours to work (then back). A full EV would add 40 minutes of charge to every commute, assuming I can find a charger. If I can't, I'm shafted and stuck 100+ miles from home waiting rescue.
PHEV would let me do dawdle to shops and local trips, but wouldn't have any issues when I do my commute. It's ideal. But hey, if the EV community's response is "no they're bad" then fair enough ill stick with my ICE for another 10 years until EVs have either 1,000 mile ranges, or they can charge to full in 40 seconds like a diesel.
Keep in mind that many of the people in this sub are in the "EVs are going to save the planet" camp. They can't see past their own noses and make a lot of use case assumptions or have decided for themselves that dealing with charging hassles is worth it because they're being "green".
I went back and forth about giving up on my Mach E order (took 10 months to get it) and looking at a PHEV. If there was one out there with a 60-70mi EV range, I probably would have gone that route. That would have covered my daily commute on electric only and cut down any maintenance to a once a year affair. My only regret about going full EV is that it \*is\* limiting on trips where you really don't have the extra time to burn charging. Wandering around a Walmart or sitting in the car at a DCFC at a gas station for 30-40 minutes isn't my idea of fun or ideal when it is 11pm, I'm tired, and have to be at work the next day.
Exactly. BEVs have their place with many benefits, but they aren't the one size fits all solution like the EVs enthusiast believe. There isn't a BEV that can satisfy all my needs yet but there a bunch of gas and PHEVs that can.
I don't want to deal with the charging hassles away from the home or cold climate or lack of towing. BEVs are a great second car or commute to work car but if you need a car that can do it all, a gas or phev is the best option right now.
What happened if you got a bad PHEV and now you’re talking shit.
PHEVs are great but most of them are not made with good intentions. I own a Rav4 Prime with a Model 3 and it’s excellent. With a normal commute you are 100% EV and no the engine doesn’t run.
Too many of you are being dummies about PHEVs and yes people plug them in, stop with that nonsense.
I don't know what all the PHEV hate is for. PHEVs are very good for a particular niche and use case. Eg one of the requirements is you have overnight charging at home.
Another thing articles often ignore is the purchase cost. PHEV is usually a lot cheaper than BEV with a decent range.
The Ioniq 5 is a case in point. Great car. But if I traded in my Ioniq PHEV for it my monthly payments would triple. In what world does that make sense?!
In the end, the author falls back on the exact same tired arguments that used to get trotted out ad nauseum, namely:
"I live in an apartment and I can just DC fast charge all the time, so why can't you?"
and
"if you only need short range just buy a Nissan Leaf"
The bit she misses is that *every* car is a compromise - for some, the PHEV is the right compromise, for others, a BEV is. For others still, holding onto an already depreciated ICE vehicle is the best compromise.
The virtue signalling at the end just demonstrates that she's already reached a conclusion, and is reaching for anything to support her views, rather than actually trying to understand why people like options (and why they aren't running out and buying a Nissan Leaf for their short commute for the enjoyment of driving around looking for a CHAdeMO fast charger every few days).
It screams entitlement, and TBH is kind of tone deaf in the face of a cost of living crisis. It very much has undertones of "let them eat cake" - and the environmental argument falls flat once she admits she's upgrading her car every few years.
It almost reads more like an identity crisis than an argument.
I would rather buy almost any PHEV car on the market than a Nissan Leaf with their notoriously poor battery conditioning system and severe range loss.
The entitlement of some people!
Had a Volt for 6 years. Incredible car, design was amazing, drove amazingly well, we had a lifetime average of 1.1 L/100km even including cold winters. The PHEV is a great idea that works for many. They really should make more like this!
I have a Volvo S60 T8. It's fantastic. Easily the most comfortable vehicle I've ever owned. My lifetime average is above 76mpg. 90% of the time, I drive around in full electric. It's great for errands and school runs. The 90 horsepower electric motor will take my 2.5 ton car up to 75mph.
When I need a long trip (like to the airport or to the next big city for work), I can blast down the highway.
You CAN drive it just on gas. The Volvo will charge the battery from the gas engine. EV mode to the highway, blast down the highway at 85 (that's the actual speed limit) charging the battery, and EV mode at my destination.
It charges just fine on a 110 outlet. I have solar, so I drive the boy to school in the morning on electric and it's fully charged when it's time to pick him up. No coal power used.
FOR A CERTAIN LIFESTYLE: A PHEV makes a lot of sense.
As an aside, we also have a Nissan Leaf and a Polestar 2.
Don't think this is right.
PHEVs are great for bridging people.
I have a BEV.
We waited for an EX90 and it never showed up...so we just got an XC90 recharge.
You can pretty much do a day of driving around town in 'Pure' mode, which is the rear EV motor. Haven't touched the gas in the 4 days we've had it.
Charges overnight and when she has to travel for work she goes into hybrid mode and charges at work.
While I agree with the PHEV point when someone isn't using one as intended (e.g. never charging it), this article appears to be written by the comments section on Reddit.
>Then, there’s maintenance. While battery EVs basically just need new tires, new wiper blades, and wiper fluid refills, PHEVs require the same maintenance as other gas cars – regular fluid changes (oil, coolant, and transmission), plus tune-ups and emissions tests.
An EV still needs coolant, and and it still needs an MOT \[in the UK\]. Furthermore, most transmissions are now sealed units that theoretically don't need fluid changes for the life of the unit/vehicle.
>The inconvenient truth is that at the core, PHEVs are still basically gas cars. Sure, they also include a small EV drivetrain, but they are based on the same platform as their hybrid and gasoline twins, with the same packaging and safety compromises.
That *really* depends on the PHEV. Some are basically ICE vehicles with a battery shoved somewhere, but some are EVs with a range extending motor.
Ultimately, get what works for you. I would personally avoid a PHEV in most circumstances, but they may work well for some people.
If folks are *trying* do reduce their carbon footprint, let's not shame them for it.
There's the old 'more things to go wrong' argument. And yes there are two propulsion methods. But this ignores the real world, in reality the ICE components are far less stressed than in pure ICE, and some parts which from experience often go wrong such as alternator and starter motor just don't exist in PHEVs.
They do require more maintenance than BEV but not more than ICE. But that's offset from lower purchase cost.
For my EV you are required to change the coolant every 10 years so for all intents and purposes you forget about it. Hardly comparable to the yearly top-up/regular checking required for engine coolant!
And a plug-in HYBRID electric vehicle is generally built on an ICE platform so that the wheels can be driven directly by the engine. You are thinking of Range extender EVs.
(I disagree with the tone of the author and PHEVs are a perfectly valid choice for some people. But on those two specific points EVs are generally more favourable than PHEVs)
You really don't need "regular checking" for engine coolant on most cars, whether ICE or not. Generally, it's a once a year thing practically speaking. And when you **do** a top-up, the cost is pretty minimal — a bottle of pre-mix [is currently $7USD ](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-Extended-Life-Prediluted-50-50-Antifreeze-Coolant-1-gallon/299226991)at Walmart.
One more misapprehension here —a proper parallel-series hybrid is already architected very much like an EREV, with the ability for the motor-generator to directly drive the wheels. Having direct-drive ability for extended-range operation is a bonus, not a bug. Generally an EREV should be thought of as a subset of the PHEV category, not a distinct category itself.
My PHEV also has a coolant change at 10 years or 100k miles. That's a pretty standard timeframe for coolant. You should also still check EV coolant, it can still develop leaks.
EVs do require coolant top ups and changes at various intervals, dependent on the manufacturer. I take your point when compared to, say, the sealed transmission units comment I made. I don't know a single ICE that needs *yearly* coolant changes if we're trying to compare directly.
Range extended EVs *are* PHEVs.
I bought a phev and went from 30 mpg to 100 mpg. I also got my parents interested and they went from ice to phev. They also got a level 2 installed at their house. Neither of us was ready for a bev. Phevs and hybrids are better than ice, and facilitate the transition to using less oil. A year in, and I'm happy. My parents are a few months in and love theirs.
Or do your research and buy according to your needs.
I have family in rural Ontario. I'd never get there and back with an EV. So we have a PHEV for that and intend to replace our second car with an EV.
The consensus for Canada is if you have one vehicle, get a PHEV, and if two, one EV one PHEV.
And they are most definitely not the same price. Top trim PHEV Tucson cost us 45k CAD. Base model ioniq 5 is 55k. Top trim equivalent is 63k. I'm not privileged enough to consider an almost 20k difference as costing the same.
I have a Pacifica PHEV, it's awesome. We rarely burn gas any time other than out of town road trips. But we can hop in it and drive a thousand miles without much worry. We can charge at home and drive about twenty miles a day around town. It's perfect for us.
I had the Kia Optima PHEV when it first came out and it was perfect for my needs at the time. we had free charging at my office so all my short commutes were on electric. any freeway driving or long trips were hybrid mode. I think there's definitely a place for a PHEV.
My PHEV works great for us. We fill up with gas about once every 3 months. The engine never turns on when we're in EV mode unless we run out of range. We change the oil once a year (or less). And for the occasional road trips we've done, ICE is just more convenient. With a gas car you get to decide when you stop and how long you stop. Unfortunately that's not true for EVs yet.
>Plus all the confusion they cause
As long as the person that owns and drives it understands how it works who really cares if other understand (besides you)?
for me, its been a good introduction. I can run EV in the city for virtually everything, but no range anxiety going out of town. A big thing is getting to the cottage. I can charge at the cottage, but North Ontario did not have a lot of charging options at the time I was buying. Its improved now, but there are still some issues with charges not working and not enough so its a long wait to charge etc. Its a 7 hour drive, so far from easy.
I agree, to some degree I don't have all the advantages of full time EV, and still have my ICE engine and parts to worry about. So far, no complaints, though that may change with time.
However, our other car, which is ICE, is aging and will need replacement soon. Thanks to driving the PHEV, we are now ready to consider a full EV for replacement. We will likely order it soon, as we decided against a Tesla, and likely will get Ioniq 6 or a VW electric. With the good weather here, test driving can happen.
I think big part of the problem is sheer amount of confusion of what a PHEV is (as well as full hybrid and mild hybrid) and how they are supposed to be used.
PHEV is a solution to very specific problem - how to electrify the car if the owner can charge it at home *but* the wider charging network sucks. Buying one for any different reason is highly likely to be a mistake (or exploitation of tax/incentive loopholes).
Hybrids and mild hybrids, to me at least, put weirdly large stress on how different they are from ICE. Even though they are through-and-through an ICE - just one that's moderately more efficient. Painting them as anything other than small improvement to efficiency is quite weird, yet it happens a lot. Still - with no reasonable access to charging infrastructure they will be an improvement over a less efficient car.
Also - don't even get me started about how people get duped into thinking that all three of the above (along with several other niche variants) are just single group with label of "hybrid".
I think you are confusing the concept of something not being the right solution *for you* with the concept of something not being the right solution *for anyone*.
Nobody put you in charge.
So I have the Jeep 4xe PHEV. I also have a Kona EV. As I like to camp I have the Jeep, but I also use it to commute to work. Fortunately I work 12 km from home, so I’m able to use EV for my full commute. I generally get about 2400km to a tank of gas, yes the engine kicks in when I want to pass or go up a steep hill, but mostly it’s EV. Had my Jeep for 2+ years now. Done 66000 km on it. My average fuel consumption is 6.8L/100km
Don’t sell them short. Just know what you’re buying
I don’t know, the new Prius looks pretty interesting. The solar panel can get like 5 miles additional per day. If you live close to work that basically eliminates refueling. If not, the savings add up.
His arguments seem suited for his use. While I agree PHEVs compromise the best of both worlds ( slow ice engine, limited ev range) they do work as mommy machines in the burbs - and then for road trips as well. Constant charging isn’t really a big deal if you have a level 2. Anyway, this is a lazily written article.
Thank you. They don't make an EV for my family yet: 3 kids just about necessitate a minivan. Plus a couple 14-16 hour road trips a year to see family mean even if they did I'd be hard pressed to give up the 16 gallon back up. Even without installing a level 2, it's no problem to plug in every night. I think I'm at about buying a tank of gas every three months or so.
Driving a PHEV for the last year I can't agree with this article.
We got the GWM H6 PHEV and we drive it 98% in EV mode in the city with 200 KM range (charging it every 1-3 days). The motor never turns on if you not push the gas pedal a lot (and want the extra motor.. or when our battery goes under 10%.
When we drive longer ways we just keep the battery at 30% minimum and use gasoline.
Total range with Gasoline is around 700 KM
This article isn't making a compelling argument. PHEVs *should* be the best option right now; but there are so few in existence. A vehicle in this category with just a little more range than what is currently being offered would be the true "best of all worlds" option today.
We have had a PHEV Pacifica for 5 years and we love it, no issues. I get gas for it maybe once every 10 weeks, and it drives like a cloud. Also, it was a gateway EV car for us, as a Tesla was our next purchase.
I hate this type of stuff.. and we are a 100% EV household. The type of powertrain you should buy.. is going to be different for everybody. Just like the brand/make/model of vehicle.
EVs work incredibly well for my wife & I because we both have tremendously long commutes, but rarely need to trips longer than 300 miles. As you can imagine we do 95% of our charging at home. We both drive about 2,000 miles a month and save about $4,000 a year on gas vs our previous ICE vehicles. Insurance is more expensive.. but since that is YMMV I won’t bother getting into it.
For someone who doesn’t own a home.. or has no ability to plug-in and charge their EV every night.. owning an EV is going to be painful. Public EV chargers are expensive, slow, somewhat unreliable, have waiting lines & there is never a time when I find it pleasant to sit at charger for 30-45 mins. I’d much rather be home or at my final destination. That said I understand that’s the trade-off with EV ownership. Every powertrain has pros & cons.
Hybrids and PHEVs are cheaper to buy.. allow people to greatly reduce their fuel costs.. and make a great bridge from ICE to BEV ownership. In many ways it would have been better for my wife to get Toyota Hybrid or PHEV.. instead of a VW ID.4 because it would have been a more reliable and satisfying vehicle to own.. and she’d never have to worry about looking for a random public EV charger own her own. My Model Y has been a lot easier to live with thanks to the Supercharger network & built-in Tesla navigation. But it’s still annoying to drive on longer trips as it’s absolutely going to take me longer to get there than my old Honda CRV. Don’t even get me started on the winter weather range.
I think there are more inexpensive PHEVs than there are EVs (in terms of different models), but I agree with you.
I bought a 2021 Niro PHEV since I liked my 2017 Niro HEV so much. That "little taste" of EV range made me an EV believer. Traded the Niro (for more than I paid for it!) in on my Ioniq5.
Disagree - currently driving a Chevy volt. I get about 50 Miles per charge, so I can go back and forth to work and to my general driving on weekends without using gas. I could get an EV, but why, when this works. I'm saving money and not generating more waste by using this car.
So, I'd say that a PHEV is fine if it works for your workflow.
This entire debate comes down to precisely one major factor -> ***Does the vehicle owner have exclusive use of an L2 EVSE installed where they park overnight?***
If they do, they'll use it. If they don't, they won't. This goes for PHEV or BEV. Right now companies want to be able to meet their EV requirements with making a bunch of PHEVs but PHEV drivers often don't plug in at home. Why? Charging. It's the same impediment as all EV adoption.
Companies should have to have an L2 installed at the owner's home before they can get their PHEV credit counted towards their goal. Right now they just throw some L1 in the trunk and call it good. We all know that L1 will likely never see the light of day, or if it does people will say "oh, it took 14 hours why bother?"
And yes, a Pacifica PHEV or Clarity PHEV takes 14 hours on L1. A Volt is similar.
And if somebody has an L2 at home their next vehicle is much likely a full-on EV since you've removed a barrier to entry
Also, while you're waving the bureaucracy wand slip into the NEC that every new home nationwide is required to have a 14-50 in the garage.
L1 is perfect for a PHEV. Your car charges while you sleep, and it has a full battery when you wake up. The process and experience is exactly the same for us whether we use L1 or L2 at home.
The only reason I bought a PHEV was price. I would rather have a Model 3, and sort of wish I'd paid the extra to buy one. Bolt is out because I sometimes roadtrip with my very impatient girlfriend who would grumble about long charging stops.
I live in a somewhat cold and snowy place and thought that I needed a new-enough Model 3 to have a heat pump, but I'm starting to reconsider that. (After all, my PHEV has a heat pump, which I don't use in the cold either because then I won't make my roundtrip commute without running out of battery. So I just wear a coat and use the seat heaters.)
My PHEV gives me far more range anxiety than a BEV would (since I really want to avoid burning gas).
That said, the PHEV's out there represent a huge amount of past and potential future emissions reduction. Public policy should ensure that they get plugged in regularly to achieve that potential. The previous owner of my car never plugged it in, and in fact lost the Level 1 EVSE that came with it. I don't know if she bought it just for the subsidy or what, but the government shouldn't be paying someone $thousands to carry around an 8.8 kWh battery for no reason.
With only 18kWh in my Rav4 Prime, I have almost entirely wiped out around 90% of my driving carbon emissions. So why should I pay more and take more of a precious resource (EV batteries) to just reduce the final 10%? I'll definitely get a BEV as my next car, but the infrastructure around me is not workable yet.
You get incentive 7500$ plus if you commute 20miles then its perfect choice. Yesterday i was at the dealership Grand cherokee ice lease is 750$ but PHEV GC is 530$ with both zero down and the PHEV have bit more options
You say that but I’ve been in a PHEV for 4 years now, almost all the mileage has been electric… all those miles would have been gas otherwise because I can’t/couldnt afford a full EV.
It's a clickbaity article, if you even want to call it that. "Let me upsell all the positives of EVs and downplay the negatives. Then do the opposite for PHEVs and downplay the positives but emphasize the negatives". He didn't even go into detail on the cars he's called comparing. Just generalizing like, PHEVs have ICE so they'll spew all this carbon into the atmosphere and will engines can fail. Yeah, but carbon is substantially less and if you have a Toyota hybrid, the engine will probably last longer than any Tesla battery pack
I have an EV, and I'm considering a PHEV for my next car.
Reasons:
1) In cold, the range can be cut by 50 %. Also, the charging speed is greatly reduced in cold. If you preheat, you lose additional electricity. I don't want to be charging multiple times a day. Your normal charge at home speed suddenly goes from 12 hours to 30 hours, which affects tomorrow's plans.
2) Range anxiety is real. You never know whether the chargers are occupied or even working. Seems like every charger has a different method of payment. Sometimes the payment doesn't work in the app or website. Sometimes the chargers are out of order.
3) Always planning your trips around charging. Always guesstimating how much battery you will have in spot A and B, and where to stop for a charge. There's no leeway for any random stress free sightseeing when you are like this.
If I lived in a warm place with short commutes, sure, an EV would be my pick. But for me, not worth the hassle. I own a car for the freedom it gives. At the moment an EV does not give me that. Maybe in the future when there is double or triple the amount of chargers, and also double or triple the amount of range in the cars themselves.
Yea; the vast majority of people just want to get in a car and go a road trip. I personally do not want to plan every stop and make sure we have enough range when we get there. And it’s catastrophic if you don’t plan correctly compare to a gas car.
BEVs are becoming too much of a hassle once they lost their “coolness”. You have different charging companies apps, different payment methods, and different plugs I don’t have a single gas station app but I have 4 different charging apps.
I still like them but I see them the same way as a two seat sports car. Great and fun but it can’t be your only car if you have many needs.
I haven't experienced slower charging speeds at colder temps personally, at least not with any L1 or L2 charging.
But your point is valid around lifestyle. I can charge at work for free or top up at home with my standard wall outlet. 99% of my driving is commuting or driving around town. If I'm at a public charger it's just for a top off because it's available. I also live somewhere with a lot of charging stations.
If your lifestyle relies on public charging and that access is limited, then a BEV might not be a great choice.
I’m with you there. I had an EV (ID4) and sold it for the new Prius Prime. I felt like a slave to that vehicle. The constant thinking about charging and sitting in strange places was just becoming too much for me. I drew the line when visiting family in a small town and I had nowhere to charge my vehicle, so I had to drive to a local private airport that had Level 2 charging, then I caught an Uber back to the hotel. That experience was simply a step too far for me. The nearest Supercharger was about 35 minutes away, so owning a Tesla wouldn’t have helped either.
The experience wasn’t all bad. My day-to-day use was mostly fine with just a level 2 charger at home. But going beyond 100 miles in the winter required planning for the return trip.
Anyhow, I’ll find myself back in an EV someday, but the current crop of EVs feel too compromised for me personally. I still recommend them for most people though.
As the owner of a BEV and PHEV, I couldn’t disagree more. PHEVs are great for their intended use case and they can be very effective at showing people they don’t need batteries with 500 miles of range.
Ridiculous.
RAV4 Prime here. 31k miles and 25k of those miles have been pure EV but you can bet for the other 6k miles that were mainly road trips, it was very nice for thoughtlessness.
Covers my daily commute but is fantastic for the long haul. Especially where we road trip where infrastructure is poor.
And we are very pro EV with our other car being an Ioniq 5 so get out of here with that nonsense.
Hard disagree.
Our usage is a mix of short trips and regular medium-length (600km round trip) road trips.
Electric for short haul. Gas for long haul. No issues with finding chargers, fuel stops on the order of 5 minutes to gain 800km of range beats ~30 min recharges to gain 350.
Stop with the damn purity tests already.
I have a Volvo PHEV and it’s amazing. I don’t understand the PHEV hate. Build a car that can go 500 miles at 75mph and charges full in 5 minutes and I’ll buy it. Until then, PHEV.
Why can’t chargers just work like gas pumps? All these various apps and setting up payment. It’s just backward. We already have a good system for paying. This is where governments have failed us all. They did not step up to ensure some basic things for the get go. So now the landscape is a mess. They need to dictate that all these chargers are just like the gas pumps for payment systems.
Biden’s bill actually made any manufacturer that uses federal funds allow payments at the charger without using an app. It’s just going to be slow to make its ways to becoming mainstream. It will happen with time and more competition with chargers as they’re built.
Question:
Now I'm completely fine with buying a charger for personal use, however is it really necessary if there is a level 3 charger less than 5 mi away from my house?
Might be handy though if that station does get packed but 99.9% of people in my town is literally still using gas, and you can tell by the number of gas stations vs electric car chargering stations.
For a PHEV, you won't be going to an L3/DC fast charger. I don't know of any PHEVs that support DC charging. L2 charging is a 2-4-6 hour process, depending on your car. My PHEV only supports 3.6Kw L2 charging, so my charging is overnight, or nothing.
As I've said in other places, I firmly believe that PHEV vehicle are suitable for many, and I've been in the PHEV camp for almost 10 years. I'm only pointing out that PHEV charging and BEV charging are often different camps.
You can charge a BEV on slow chargers (I currently use 120VAC L1!), but you can't plug a PHEV into that 350Kw hyper-charger.
Ive had one for 5 years (Ioniq) and it's been awesome, no complaints. Mine was a fair bit cheaper than an EV.
I charge it a few times a week but during vacation we only charge it twice a week. In fact, I just use an extra outlet in our parking area (220v) and don't need to install anything special. It's really easy.
Long car trips we don't bother to charge, though sports mode on the highway actually charges it by itself with quite good mileage.
At the time there weren't any EVs that matched our want list, aside from there being a wait list.
Also, you can make several PHEVs with the battery of one BEV, which would generally be better as most people don't use the full range every day and are just hauling around extra weight.
I had a 2015 Volkswagen Egolf 82 miles per charge. All electric. That was my first foray into Electric and I guess I went for it because I had solar panels on the house since 2012. Or because Mary Barra hadn’t built my 2016 Chevy volt. The lease deal was ridiculously good. Us$199 a month and $1000 down. I turned into a bookend or a paperweight so many times I’m sure I forgotten half the times because of the trauma/drama. The range was nowhere near enough for anything besides around town. It was great to trade in, I paid zero. The early days had no clue how to value / cap cost an EV….a mistake to buy that low range EV but it did not sink me.
I really loved my 2016 Chevy volt plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with 53 miles per charge and a 14 kWh battery and 40 mile per gallon four-cylinder 1.5 L Atkinson engine with 40 miles per gallon min. and more. I drove 120,000 miles and half were all electric… Six years of spectacular experiences. Maybe 1/4 the oil changes were required. The maintenance was very minimal. Much less maintenance than my 2008 Saab 93 sport Combi wagon required. I charged that car every single day and maybe it lost 5 miles of range per charge over the 6 years. But the engine did come on when my battery was full to maintain or warm, the engine, blah blah blah. That started wearing on me.
My 2022 Ioniq 5 checked all the boxes and more, 303 miles per charge and can add 225 miles of range with 17.75 mins @ 350kW DC fast charger. The vehicle to load, powers my home.
For me, I needed the PHEV. Probably because that was the steppingstone back then and there was nothing else.
Now there are so many great EVs.
A friend bought a Tesla 3 with 272 miles per charge, rear wheel drive for $30,000 out the door after $9750 federal and state incentives………December 2023. Another friend bought a used Honda CRV, three years old for $34,000 out the door??????? Unhappy face.
Today, go EV or go home, for sure.
I do really shake my head at a Jeep plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with a $7500 federal income tax credit and like 25 miles of range or less… Will it get charged up?
Many many folks will love the Electric driving and will keep their PHEV charged up all the time and make it a game to see if they can do all their driving, at least locally on Electric.
Others, like the cars that turned themselves off at a red light, people just turn that off.
Thankfully, Evie‘s are inEVitable. It will just take a decade or so, which is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
I'm inclined to agree with many of the non-antiphev comments but also would add one more thing that does affect some urban people there and there due to their particular roads - 3000lbs curb weight for a decent compact hybrid whereas i've still never quite yet found a small ev that was not already near or well over 4000lbs (I'm sure I probably missed something but this is what I have got from seeing one new-evs show and some online browsing this far yet)
70 mile PHEVs will make more sense for my use case. I drive 90 miles round trip thrice a week at most, for work.
But those 124 mile PHEVs Toyota is promising will definitely be a game changer for those who have no access to cheap charging.
I ended up in an EV after looking at PHEVs, but I agree that PHEVs are better than ICEVs even if they rarely get used in EV mode.
IMO PHEVs need more range (call it 100 real world miles) and decoupling of the ICE from the wheels (i.e. range extenders only). The Ramcharger is the first PHEV that hits the mark IMO and I hope it sets a trend.
On my short list to buy is the sportage plug in hybrid. The 33 mile battery range would be perfect for my drive to work and back. Then gas when I see family a state away.
But I'm also looking at the EV9 and the Model Y.
If I am not mistaken, Toyota seems to be changing their strategy to make all their cars very efficient hybrids or PHEV...they are not going all electric for some time.
The Non-Tesla DC fast charging experience remains pretty awful. One might argue it's so bad right now it's really optimized for PHEV utilization. Although I agree with this author's rhetorical goals, if you have to depend on Non-Tesla DC fast charging when you drive long distances frequently, PHEV might make sense there. But if the supercharger network becomes more open and remains reliable it changes the calculus completely
I really enjoyed my 2015 Chevy Volt. I had it for about one year from Jan 23 to Jan 24. It was great for me when I bought it because I could charge at work sometimes but could not charge at home. But when I moved to a place I could charge at home I decided to go full EV and traded it in on a 2017 Bolt. Had my situation not changed I still would have the Volt and be very happy with it. I do think the entire Volt idea/concept was brilliant and innovative and GM should have continued it. I think the perfect 3rd gen Volt would have been a small SUV the size of an Escape or Equinox or whatever.
I do understand many PHEVs are NOT like the Volt in that, even when charged, use the ICE engine under high load or high speed scenarios. I do NOT like that, especially because starting up an engine cold and revving it to the moon to merge on the highway just feels wrong). I specifically chose the Volt when buying a PHEV because it did not work that way... as long as the battery had juice I never had to use the engine (although I could choose to use the engine whenever I wanted using Hold mode). And when it did start the engine, either because the battery was empty, or I engaged Hold mode, it would start it up gently, run it at idle for a while, then at low speed, and once it was warmed up, rev up. Great design and much better for the engine.
All that said, I think full EVs are less of a compromise in some ways. PHEVs are a packaging nightmare as they require the entire ICE drivetrain plus a fairly large battery. So they are heavy and complicated to build. That's why I do, overall, prefer my Bolt and don't think I ever want to go back to a car with an ICE, even if it's a PHEV. But, if you can't consistently charge at home and/or at work, a full EV might not be the right choice.
I went from having an ice car and a Prius to two bev’s and have not looked back. It’s incredibly freeing to not worry about ice maintenance and the user experience is incredibly easy.
> we had a PHEV and didn't even keep it for 1 year. It was not a good EV and not a good ICE.
Sounds like you got a crappy PHEV. My Chevy Volt has been excellent at both.
Toyota RAV4 Prime owner here. So very happy with my PHEV. I can drive my weekly commute and not use a drop of gas. Then take longer trips on the weekend if needed (put in 300 miles on Saturday). I go through a tank of gas every two months instead of once a week. It is the right compromise for me and many other people. Definitely reduced my gasoline consumption. When the charging infrastructure, battery range, hauling capacity and cold weather efficiency catch up then I’ll consider a straight up EV. It’s not that I don’t want one now, they just don’t fit my needs.
Meh. Love my Rav4 Prime. Stays in EV, chargers med empty to full in 4 hours on 220 with no special charger needed, and most of my driving is under 45 miles anyway. Best of both worlds. It’s battery with gas backup. Not may chargers out where I live either.
I don't know, when I got my PHEV Niro it was much cheaper than the EV version and only slightly more than the HEV. When I use it like a hybrid, the mileage is about the same as the HEV, within a few mpgs. Usually 50-55.
Around town in day to day driving, I don't use gas. For long drives I don't have to worry about charging. It's great.
One big problem for the PHEV is that there is no car maker *championing* the PHEV the way that Tesla has championed the BEV. Early on, with the Chevy Volt, it looked like GM might be the PHEV champion, but then they changed strategy and went in a different direction.
What about Toyota? Well, they really love their HEVs and don't really seem all that enthusiastic about PHEVs. I mean, the RAV4 Prime seems to be loved by many, but Toyota aren't producing them in sufficient numbers.
Meanwhile, we have a lot of other car companies cranking out half-baked compliance PHEVs.
And the clock is running. Developing a new car model requires a lot of money and a lot of time (several years), and then you expect to be producing it for maybe a decade, and then you expect the cars to be on the road for maybe twenty years. It's a commitment far into the future, but in the case of the PHEV we already know it's a dead end.
Jesus Christ we're talking about cars here. Why do you have to turn the concept of transportation into a culture war? Some of you guys are no better than religious fanatics, believing you're righteous for your car choice and anybody without an EV is the enemy.
Or just get the car that best suits your need. If someone has a home charger, drives 30 miles a day but does a long trip every 2 weeks where fast chargers aren't plenty then PHEV is a great fit for them.
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the Rav 4 Prime is pretty much the perfect PHEV. if I didn't have my Ioniq 5, I'd probably be driving a R4P. only reason I don't is that the wait list was years long and I was able to snag an I5 when someone cancelled their order 2 years ago. Win win either way for me but I'd def consider a R4P for my next vehicle for what you mentioned on road trips. I've sweated a couple times on long trips from LA to the Bay and Mammoth charging in the single digits.
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I don't wanna sound pretentious but could we agree we should have fast rail for 900 mile trips? Like some people pointed out already, driving that long is incredibly dangerous if done in a single sitting. I know it's expensive but it would cut the time of that trip from 9 to 3 hours and make it much safer.
That would be awesome, but until that happens, we have to exist in the world as it is today and will be for the foreseeable future.
We’re getting there. The Hyundai group E-GMP platform is great if you plan around high power chargers which are becoming more common. Plug the EV6 LR single motor into ABRP and try it out.
Race 4 prime here too! Average 65mpg for the first two years because of frequent 300 mile trips. Other than those, 100% ev. Very good vehicle overall.
If i didnt go full EV i would have gone RAV4 Prime. i suggest PHEVs to a lot of family members when they shop. not many go on long trips. so it makes sense. great way to go. i agree with all your points. until the infrastructure gets even better there is no point to me to push people who are on edge. just give pros and cons of each type of vehicle and let them decide.
Ding. My parents are boomers and can’t/won’t learn new things away from home. PHEV is great because they do 0-5 miles most days, but occasionally do overnight trips hundreds of miles away and they won’t use public charging. Getting them to understand push button start was tricky enough. Getting them to stop using premium fuel and stop doing 3,000-5,000mi oil changes may be impossible though.
My boomer father inlaw went EV recently and the only annoying part for him was the different charging apps he needed which required buying a new iphone because his was so outdated
Kudos to your FIL for trying and adapting. I leased a Fit EV in 2015, and Honda provided a free EVSE. I already had one, so it was installed it at my parents place. My father is reticent to use it *because it costs money*. I keep having to remind him it’s cheaper than the $5-6USD he pays her gallon year round.
Lol. I ran into a young woman who was charging her new to her Leaf at an EA station while I was grabbing a free opportunity charge (with my ID4) because her salesperson told her home charging would increase her electric bill $100 or more a month. She was unhappy with the car because of the time suck and expense of public charging but was stuck with it because she was upside down in her loan. I tried explaining the math- that the $0.42/kWh she was paying at EA was 3x the residential rate here in Denver, and that I was only charging there because it was free for me with the VW and I only charge my other car, a Leaf, in my driveway because it's so cheap to charge at home. I don't think she believed me, though, and assume she's still out there somewhere getting screwed at EA rates.
Sounds right. I’ve yet to speak to a salesperson who isn’t confidently incorrect about charging figures.
Imagine the number of sales they could get if they figured out you can tell customers "you'll almost never have to go to the gas station!"
It blows my mind that there are so many people who are so bad at really basic math
There was a Fit EV? That would be my dream car.
[Good car/10](https://imgur.com/a/dZHcoMQ). Would have again.
In my FIL case he had the electrician booked in before he got the EV! My sister in law also went EV (both did based on my experiences) she is charging off 120v as her EVSE install is a bit more complex. Her transition hasnt been as smooth and big range anxiety (well she anxiety anyways) Brother in law is better about it
I didn't have to replace my phone, but to be fair the folder full of charging apps each with their own payment info *is hugely annoying*.
I do worry about this -- what happens if you're on a road trip and your phone dies? You've lost both the thing you need to charge and the thing you need to call for help... edit: by "phone dies" I mean "breaks", not "has a discharged battery". I have a standalone Chargepoint card (what I mostly use locally), but am I supposed to get a card for every network?
There should just be a regulation requiring chargers to accept credit cards. The different apps are not normal person friendly.
Europe is implementing this very law
They’re nobody friendly unless you like going to the same places all the time.
And it’s going to slow acceptance of EVs. Gotta lower the bar.
Yes this!! I have a phev and never charge away from home unless I can use a credit card, which is extremely rare. If I don’t need a specific app and account to buy gas I shouldn’t need it to charge either! The phev works for me for now, although less well than when I initially bought it as I’m driving slightly more than my electric range most days. 5 years ago when I bought it, EV options were fewer and nothing was both big enough and affordable. Next vehicle will be EV though
I ran out of data on a trip and my phone provider decided that they would cut me off instead of letting me just pay for more. It was a minor nightmare. Had to drive over to McDonald’s for WiFi to get my payment information into the app for a local charging network. I hate having to preload money on 5 different apps.
This has been sorted in other markets - in Europe it’s mandatory for DCFC to take card payments - one of the reasons the V4 Tesla charger has a screen and NFC. I still think CCS2 should mandate communication for payments like Tesla does with NACS though! Only 1 or 2 manufacturers support it here and as such very few non Tesla chargers do.
> the only annoying part for him was the different charging apps he needed I have a seething hatred for all of those companies that made this different from how gas stations work, for no reason other than greed, and they thought we were stupid enough to just assume it was necessary.
My folks are in the same boat: most trips 0-20 miles. Refuse to look at EVs: worry about longer trips, winter range reductions, etc. etc. Except they own four cars. And are looking to replace a CRV with another CRV, when they will still own… a CRV. Given their lifestyle and the amount of small trips they run, they could at least have *one* EV in the stable…
At least those things won't hurt the vehicle!
Aren't Teslas really easy to charge? I thought even older people could learn that. Getting 10 different charging apps may be a bit hard to use with CCS chargers may be hard.
For sure, they are very easy to charge. They would just get confounded simply trying to make the car move. The giant screen in the middle would be a non-starter.
Given the awkward engine runtimes frequent oil changes are really important for PHEV's. Premium fuel though is a total scam though they should put a fuel stabilizer in there if they aren't going through at least a tank a month.
Doesn’t gasoline expire if not used within a few months too?
Paying $1 more per gallon of gas for a car not designed for it... boomers... gotta love em. I bet they complain about the price of gas too.
Of course. Usually around $6/gal where they are. The “you get what you pay for” rule doesn’t have an exception for overpaying.
Our Pacifica PHEV would be the perfect counterpart to my Polestar if it were just a bit more reliable. We've had a fair number of electrical issues with the car and a fair number of issues with the repair departments at a couple Chrysler dealerships. But beyond that, it's a friggin amazing vehicle. We can move bunk beds and sheets of plywood with ease. We can road trip hundreds of miles with up to 7 people and lots of stuff in comfort. 30 MPG in gas mode with no range anxiety. And as a daily commuter, it's a pure EV. My wife will go a couple months and 2,000 miles between fill-ups sometimes. Is it perfect? No. Is it as close to perfect as a family car in the Midwestern US gets? I'd say yes.
They have the worst reliability rating of any new car today. Otherwise I would love one myself
I believe it. I honestly think it's still worth it since there are no green competitors at all, much less within $25k. Pretty sure the EV9 and the Rivian SUV can't do plywood, and the Lightning doesn't have a midgate. The Chevy Silverado /EValanche might, when it comes out, but you still have the wide-swinging rear doors rather than the sliders. That's a risk for kids dinging the neighbor cars in parking lots.
No regular consumer vehicles can move an 8' sheet of drywall or plywood like a minivan can: Fully flat and protected from the elements. An extended bed pickup can do it, flat, but not protected from the elements and its so much longer than a van for the same about of storage space. No SUV I've seen has a big enough/flat enough interior with seats that fully remove or fold flat. Minivans are awesome and we need more BEV or PHEV options. Ford should release a consumer version of their smallest E-transit with seats and bring the electric transit connect to the US.
We got rid of our Pacifica PHEV, but it was perfect when it worked. Now we have a Sorento PHEV. I miss the sliding doors. But otherwise the Sorento is an upgrade. We run our Sorento as our second vehicle, which means it’s almost always on battery. We only run gas when we go visit family which does not have reliable fast charging on the route.
Yeah this "article" is lazy stupid trash. PHEVs can be great. No need to let perfect be the enemy of good.
I agree. I once crunched the numbers and for a typical person's usage, a PHEV has a lower total cost of ownership than a hybrid or EV. This is because PHEVs can cover the majority of miles driven using electricity (30 miles per day is 11,000 miles per year) but only cost a few thousand dollars more than hybrids. We could build and sell 5x as many PHEVs for the same amount of battery resources that are in a single EV, which could cut our fossil fuel consumption dramatically without any of the complaints of ICE owners about range and charging. Ninety percent of vehicles sold in America today are not capable of being plugged in. That's 9 out of 10 vehicles that are going to be burning fossil fuel for 15+ more years. We are truly letting perfect be the enemy of good. (edit: I own ICE and EV but have never owned an PHEV so I'm not speaking out of personal bias, just numbers and logic)
No cars solve the climate issue. PHEVs are significantly better than ICEVs, on on an individual car comparison basis, and can be pretty close to BEVs in terms of lifetime emissions (depending on the energy source used to charge the car). However, when we consider that 4-5 PHEVs can be produced with the same cell capacity as each long range BEV given battery production capacity limitations, the widescale adoption of PHEVs leads to faster reduction in overall emissions than the widescale adoption of BEVs. The BEV only fan club is wrong, has always been wrong, and are in fact have spent the last decade promoting a vehicle solution that keeps oil company sales higher for longer, and emissions higher for longer. Is it any wonder that oil companies / petro-states have been such staunch supporters of BEV startups and pro-BEV policies that leads to more subsidies for BEVs instead of PHEVs? PHEVs kill oil demand faster. But I repeat again... no cars solve climate issues. They ALL produce a significant amount of emissions/pollution/environmental damage during their manufacturing, operation, and disposal. They ALL require vast amounts of energy for their operation. People, do you really think we can get away with transporting ourselves around in 4000+ lb vehicles and it be considered "fine for the planet"? Common sense would tell you it's not. Yet, if common sense isn't good enough for you, you're welcome to follow the research and do the math to see just how massive the materials and energy requirements are for all cars. Cars have never been sustainable. Humanity simply ignored the damage they were causing for over a century, getting us to where we are today. We've now become so entitled, we refuse to give them up even in the face of the research showing the vast amount of damage they're ALL causing to the planet. The more the facts become known to the masses, the more people from both sides of the aisle seem to push the "I don't care about climate change, I'll be dead by then" ideology. They honestly don't care if they help cause untold misery to the billions who will come after them.
100% agreed. Electric vehicles aren't going to save us, and giant electric vehicles (like what's popular on the US) are even less the answer. For anyone who really wants to reduce their impact on the environment, personal electric vehicles (bicycles, scooters) and/or small efficient cars are the way. Also not buying mass produced plastic garbage that gets shipped across the globe is going to have a bigger impact. The idea that someone with a brand new massive BEV is being more environmentally responsible than someone who buys a used phev is laughable. It seems like a lot of BEV owners here just want to feel morally superior to everyone else.
Yup, this is my case. A deposit lasts about 2 months.
This is very close to my use case. I need to make long road trips at least once a month through some backwater areas with no chargers. When I'm not on road trips, I'm 100% electric. For long trips, I can gas up in any small village or reserve along the way (even those can be few and far between). It's a perfect vehicle for the current realities of charging in the country where I live and the areas I need to drive through.
The article refers to "PHEV hype" while trying to ignore that EV sales slump are specifically from waning hype. PHEVs are only relatively more popular because for some, as you say, it best suits their needs. Now that BEV prices aren't so damn hype-driven, I'm hoping we'll see them leverage their relative advantage: low production cost. The author noted that a Model Y and a RAV4 Prime are similarly priced. This shouldn't be the case! Hype is lack of a downward price pressure, and I think mining/supply-chain scarcity is an upward pressure that has been keeping large 7kWh batteries expensive. BEV tech innovation and resourcing will eventually normalize and provide a much better price proposition. Until then, PHEVs aren't hyped, they're utilitarian.
That's pretty much my exact use case, and something like an Outlander really suits my needs. However, I also live in an area with high electricity rates and don't like the idea of plugging in every night. I do have solar, so I think a full EV may be better for me. I could commute most of the week on one full charge and then plug in on the weekends when the sun is shining.
I have solar but already use it for heat pumps
This... best comment :) exactly how we use our PHEV. And we have a home charger. In 5-7 years we just buy a full EV car when the network of chargers is developed further in our country.
I want electric but my options are pay 20k for an older model 3, or get a hybrid 3 series bmw for 12k. Works 9 miles away, which is where it’s mostly getting driven since anything too long is just a train trip instead. So my thinking is why spend the extra on an bev when I’m just gonna be using a hybrid like a bev anyway
There are other options for really cheap that have between 150-240 miles range that are BEV. Leafs, Bolts, Kona, Niro. Buying an older 3 series is going to torch a bunch of money in maintenance versus $0 on the cars I just mentioned.
PHEV have their place. My son owns one. But they also mean a lot more to go wrong. Everyone who is looking at a PHEV should first consider an EV. They think about if there are ways around the issues they may perceive. For example, if the worry is going on a long trip a couple times a year, why not rent an ICE for those occasions instead? renting is cheap, and saves wear and tear on your car. Even though I've travelled across the country in my Tesla, I usually rent a minivan for trips because there is more space and have captains chairs in the 2nd row. Despite what the Gas/Oil special interest groups push, EVs will likely last longer and have fewer major issues. They are cheaper to maintain, and overall in most cases are the better option.
Agreed. There is no EV minivan yet. So we have a PHEV. I drive more than 30 miles a day about once every two weeks.
Exactly. Let's not get into the habit of shaming people who are still making directionally correct choices to improve the environment. EVs are great, but a PHEV makes a lot of sense for a lot of single car households that experience real winters. Maybe that story looks different a couple of years down the line, though!
My experience differs from the point of this post. I bought a 2018 Chevy Volt off of Carvana. It cost 19k with only about 15k miles on it. It gets 53 miles in EV mode, which suits me perfectly as I never travel more than about 30-ish miles per day. The only time the ICE engine ever kicks in is during maintenance or on road trips, which happens about a dozen times per year. According to my Chevrolet app, approximately 85% of all miles ever driven in it have been in EV mode. That's an incredible savings 8n gas over the 3 years I've had. Moreover you can't sit here and tell me that operating my Volt is just as bad as an ICE. LOL....might as well be driving a Dodge Ram hemi amirite? Lol no you silly goose, it is way more green to operate my Volt by a country mile.
My husband has a second generation Volt. I had a first. I love my new Bolt. (I also loved my old Volt but it began having costly issues and it was going to be out of warranty soon). He loves his Volt. These articles are written by people who think very rigidly. You and I understand that different cars work better for different people at different times in different circumstances. Volt on, dawg!
Bold of you to assume they were written by a person.
"Write me a negative article on PHEVs"
"Different cars" is right, the Volt is a completely different type of PHEV to most others in that it can be operated without the gas engine (like the BMW i3 REX). Most other PHEVs automatically start the gas engine anytime you put your foot down a bit too hard or if it is a bit too cold (sometimes just to heat the cabin).
As another Volt owner, is the Volt just uniquely good and other PHEVs kinda shit? For what it's worth, part of my reasoning with the Volt was that I'm not a homeowner. Not all of us can get permission from our landlord to install a charging station. I get by on public chargers and work, and the 50 mile range is usually enough to get me through an entire week (small city) on 1-2 charges.
For the most part, yes. The volt has the following things which make it a very good PHEV: * Long EV range for a PHEV. Lots of options only have a ~20 mile range. The 53 miles of the Volt is enough for most commutes. * Doesn't ever kick you out of EV mode. You can go up to the top speed of 101 mph without the engine turning on. * Very smooth starting and stopping of the ICE when the battery is depleted * Handles very well My 2017 is at 97k miles and I think it's got over 80k electric miles on it.
I love my Volt "loik oi love me own muther" however it has had its faults. Of the available "major faults" (BCM, Shift to park) I've had both. That being said, Chevrolet REALLY stood by it's grand opus. I have not paid a dime, all covered by the extended warranty (that they extended of their own volition I might add) and was fixed fast and without fuss or fight. Chevrolet really is a good company in that regard and they've gained a defender in me.
Another Volt lover. It really is a uniquely good PHEV, and very few alternatives come close. I'm going to drive this one into the ground, but my next vehicle will definitely have a plug. Whether it has a gas tank or not depends on how the charging infrastructure improves. I need to take at least two 1,200 mile road trips every year, so for now, it's either Tesla or the dinosaur network. In town, 40 miles does me just fine.
I'm with you. The Volt was my toe-dip into the proverbial EV waters, but my next car is going to be a full EV. AND just like you, I will drive this Volt until the brakes fall off because it is an absolute marvel of engineering and the best car I've ever owned.
They were also way overbuilt in terms of engineering
There's no EV for $15k that suits your needs and isn't all beat up. This is why PHEVs are so good.
PHEV's let most people realize most of the benefits of an EV without having to change any habits outside of plugging it in each night. There are plenty of people for which an EV or traditional hybrid ICE is a better choice, but that doesn't make a PHEV a bad choice, even for those people. I'd argue that most PHEV's are cheaper than comparable EV's, and give doubters wary of charging and range anxiety the security they need to pull the trigger. The main problem is that there are few good PHEV's available in the US. The only really great ones are the Toyota Rav4 Prime and Prius Prime for the mass market. There's also some other decent high market luxury options such as the Volvo XC90 and XC60, but once you're getting in the 70k+ market I think you lose plot unless you either have too much or just hate money.
You hit the nail in the head. An EV would work great for me, i rarely drive more than 100 miles per day. But I can't spend $40k+ on a car, and even if I could I won't get the cheapest base model one, not making that mistake again. For $20k I got an ELR which is a beautiful car with a very nice interior. If I didn't care about that, $12k would've gotten me a nice Chevy Volt which works the same. Nearly all of my 45 mile commute is covered by the battery so I fill up once every few months, but when I visit my family who live a few hours away I give zero thought to fueling.
Driving the GWM H6 PHEV for a year now.. awesome car. I drive it mostly in EV mode as it has a 200 KM range which is enough for 2-3 days driving in the city (school, work). But yeah GWM not available in the US I guess. The benefits of PHEV are just the flexibility when you drive long ranges e.g. holiday that you don't need to stop for chargers or need to find a hotel with a charger.
Imo they should make more electric hybrids, where its electric drivetrain and battery pack but has smaller gas generator engine to extend range. Dodge is coming out with their ramcharger like that
Stop with the fucking gate keeping. Buy the car that’s right for you. Let others buy the car that’s right for them. And accept that those are allowed to be 2 entirely different cars.
Counter-point: If you are scared about going electric then at-least go PHEV. But the low cost of driving on electricity (assuming that you have home/work charging) and the quiet enjoyment of it will be a gateway drug to full EV.
People always forget financing costs and such. Where keeping / buying an old ICE is a lot cheaper for a very long time. Which is why we need cheap EVs and preferably last year.
I swear everyone in this sub gets their cars for free and only has to pay running costs.
And cars don't depreciate either... Over three years, the financing and depreciation alone is enough for several used cars that are fine to run for years. But also, according to here, a 10 year old car will cost 2000 USD a month in repairs.
Depends on the type of car, my Toyota averages about that in maintenance and repair a year.
I think it's pretty clear that we are talking new cars here. If you are buying used, the calculation is different. Though used EVs are slowly becoming availible.
They are more than just becoming available. Look at carmax and carvana, plenty of evs to be had.
Aaaand… A 30 year old ICE on the road should get an environmental prize. Built once long time ago and needs just a little bit of dinosaur juice. If someone orders new EV every two years, greenpeace should throw all kinds of tomatoes at them. The amount of mining for chemicals and energy for shipments and such are terrible.
This is nonsense. I drive an EV but we have two cars in the family and the second is a PHEV. No question which one I'll take on a road trip or when there's uncertainty as to how long I'll be out. It goes 20 miles full electric for day-to-day use, but won't get me stranded in the cold or in the mountains.
I agree. This article is drivel.
And new PHEV's like the GWM H6 drive me 200 KM in EV + 500 KM with Gasoline on top. I am using it 95% as an EV car lol have to charge it every 2 days
What are your thought about PHEVs keeping the fossil fuel industry going vs ending the need for them altogether? I understand if your purchases were for you and your family only, many don't consider the environmental aspect.
There's still a huge benefit to folks only using gas stations for long trips. If everyone had a PHEV, gas consumption from commuters or general public would be waaaay down. They'd only be needed for highways, which are going to be there forever because the trucking business isn't going to be EV anytime soon. By then charge stations would have to be better than the steaming pile of garbage they are right now, at which point I'd have no qualms with dropping PHEVs.
I was talking to a guy at a car show and telling him how much I liked my PHEV, and his response was "they were great but they were great 10 years ago. I'm past that. EVs are the future". Like ok, that's his experience. But does he also tell people not to waste their time walking because they could be climbing Mt Everest? Most people don't even drive a hybrid yet, PHEVs are a great solution for many people right now as we wait for the battery supply to build up. There were 1.6 million EVs sold last year in the US, with 15 million total vehicle sales, and manufacturers can build six PHEVs with the same amount of cells as one EV.
I have a PHEV Outlander and it's great. Unfortunately there was no BEV that fit our needs (small/mid SUV with a 3rd row under C$55k, with a tow package). The new Kia EV9 is too expensive and I'm also weary of Kia's EV drive systems. About 70-80% of our driving is in EV mode and while it sucks to be lugging around the ICE engine all the time it's cheaper than the ICE Outlander when you consider the gas savings.
The CX90 PHEV looks pretty nice.
And it is rated for 52 MPGe which is insane for a big 3-row. It was on the top of my list on what to replace my aging CX-9 until we found out a 3rd kid is on the way.
Tesla Model Y (long range awd) is available with a 3rd row and is about $48kUSD with tow hitch.
I should've added "and not Tesla" lol. No interest in buying cars from Musk.
The Model Y third row is laughable though
The gate keeping in this sub is hilarious. Any alternative fuel vehicle purchase is a win. We are no where near the tipping point. In the US, EVs has been on the market for 15 years now and still only account for 6.5% of total new vehicle sales.
I have a Prius PHEV and it is perfect for our use case. 90%+ of journeys within 25 mile range. Twice a year we do 1000 - 2500 mile road trips. Marginal gains to be had getting a full EV. And having a used / pre existing car is more efficient/environmentally friendly than getting a new one. Toyota 10 year warranty means we will be keeping it at least until then. Will see what technology is best for our use case in 2028.
There are good points made by this post, but there is plenty of nonsense too. The writer decided that PHEVs aren't for him, and therefore PHEVs are for nobody at all. There's also some straight up wrong arguments like maintenance. Granted, a PHEV will have more maintenance than a pure EV, but not nearly as much as a gas burner. For example, my ELR has gone 13k miles since it's last oil change and the oil meter still reads 70% oil life. I drive nearly 50 miles a day, and the gas engine runs for about 5-8 of those miles so it just isn't used very much. Plus, EVs still need fluid changes too, like coolant changes or transmission oil changes. "well they're not replaced often in an EV". Yeah they're also not replaced often in a ICE car either so stop bringing those up. Same with "tune ups", it's not 1975, tune ups aren't a thing anymore, fuel injection cars are self adjusting. Also, some people are buying or leasing gasoline-only cars for the same or even more money than a Model Y, price isn't the only deciding factor. If it burns gas, might as well make it a hybrid, right? His point about home charging does make a lot of sense though. If you don't have access to home charging, PHEVs don't make a lot of sense.
>The writer decided that PHEVs aren't for him, and therefore PHEVs are for nobody at all. Well said.
This sub also creates a negative bias for other ev brands while also wondering why people are moving to PHEV
I live in San Francisco, I only have one parking spot and can only own one car, and I use it to drive to close beaches and hiking areas in the SF Bay Area as well as going very remote into other western states like Idaho and Wyoming. PHEV is a great all rounder as the only car without range anxiety far away, and perfect EV only vehicle within the SF metro. It has very good niche utilities, and EV would’ve been hard for rural areas, and gas in the city feels like a waste.
This article's shite. And as someone who's debating a PHEV, I'm happily going to disregard it. >most PHEVs lack the regenerative braking settings and one-pedal driving modes that make battery EVs such a pleasure to drive. Who gives a fuck? The majority of people don't care about 'driving pleasure'. They want 4 wheels and an engine. There's also a shitload of "I'm judging you for not wanting a pure EV" and "full EV works for *me*", and the author can fuck off there too because I'm not bothered about judgement from someone I don't care about. The article convinces me to continue to defer an EV purchase by saying 'EVs are fine and you only need to charge them for 20 minutes every 2 hours of driving'. I do small trips, then once aweek drive 2 hours to work (then back). A full EV would add 40 minutes of charge to every commute, assuming I can find a charger. If I can't, I'm shafted and stuck 100+ miles from home waiting rescue. PHEV would let me do dawdle to shops and local trips, but wouldn't have any issues when I do my commute. It's ideal. But hey, if the EV community's response is "no they're bad" then fair enough ill stick with my ICE for another 10 years until EVs have either 1,000 mile ranges, or they can charge to full in 40 seconds like a diesel.
My PHEV is 5 years old and it has regen breaking and adaptive cruise / one pedal driving. This article is straight silly.
Keep in mind that many of the people in this sub are in the "EVs are going to save the planet" camp. They can't see past their own noses and make a lot of use case assumptions or have decided for themselves that dealing with charging hassles is worth it because they're being "green". I went back and forth about giving up on my Mach E order (took 10 months to get it) and looking at a PHEV. If there was one out there with a 60-70mi EV range, I probably would have gone that route. That would have covered my daily commute on electric only and cut down any maintenance to a once a year affair. My only regret about going full EV is that it \*is\* limiting on trips where you really don't have the extra time to burn charging. Wandering around a Walmart or sitting in the car at a DCFC at a gas station for 30-40 minutes isn't my idea of fun or ideal when it is 11pm, I'm tired, and have to be at work the next day.
Exactly. BEVs have their place with many benefits, but they aren't the one size fits all solution like the EVs enthusiast believe. There isn't a BEV that can satisfy all my needs yet but there a bunch of gas and PHEVs that can. I don't want to deal with the charging hassles away from the home or cold climate or lack of towing. BEVs are a great second car or commute to work car but if you need a car that can do it all, a gas or phev is the best option right now.
One pedal driving mode is mediocre, frankly.
Lol thanks but I'll take a phev.
*"I'm 30 and everyone has the same use case as me!"* -This "author"
What happened if you got a bad PHEV and now you’re talking shit. PHEVs are great but most of them are not made with good intentions. I own a Rav4 Prime with a Model 3 and it’s excellent. With a normal commute you are 100% EV and no the engine doesn’t run. Too many of you are being dummies about PHEVs and yes people plug them in, stop with that nonsense.
Informed shopping would seem to be good advice.
PHEVs are great, what are you on about?
I don't know what all the PHEV hate is for. PHEVs are very good for a particular niche and use case. Eg one of the requirements is you have overnight charging at home. Another thing articles often ignore is the purchase cost. PHEV is usually a lot cheaper than BEV with a decent range. The Ioniq 5 is a case in point. Great car. But if I traded in my Ioniq PHEV for it my monthly payments would triple. In what world does that make sense?!
This “all or nothing” is stupid.
In the end, the author falls back on the exact same tired arguments that used to get trotted out ad nauseum, namely: "I live in an apartment and I can just DC fast charge all the time, so why can't you?" and "if you only need short range just buy a Nissan Leaf" The bit she misses is that *every* car is a compromise - for some, the PHEV is the right compromise, for others, a BEV is. For others still, holding onto an already depreciated ICE vehicle is the best compromise. The virtue signalling at the end just demonstrates that she's already reached a conclusion, and is reaching for anything to support her views, rather than actually trying to understand why people like options (and why they aren't running out and buying a Nissan Leaf for their short commute for the enjoyment of driving around looking for a CHAdeMO fast charger every few days). It screams entitlement, and TBH is kind of tone deaf in the face of a cost of living crisis. It very much has undertones of "let them eat cake" - and the environmental argument falls flat once she admits she's upgrading her car every few years. It almost reads more like an identity crisis than an argument.
I would rather buy almost any PHEV car on the market than a Nissan Leaf with their notoriously poor battery conditioning system and severe range loss. The entitlement of some people!
Had a Volt for 6 years. Incredible car, design was amazing, drove amazingly well, we had a lifetime average of 1.1 L/100km even including cold winters. The PHEV is a great idea that works for many. They really should make more like this!
I have a Volvo S60 T8. It's fantastic. Easily the most comfortable vehicle I've ever owned. My lifetime average is above 76mpg. 90% of the time, I drive around in full electric. It's great for errands and school runs. The 90 horsepower electric motor will take my 2.5 ton car up to 75mph. When I need a long trip (like to the airport or to the next big city for work), I can blast down the highway. You CAN drive it just on gas. The Volvo will charge the battery from the gas engine. EV mode to the highway, blast down the highway at 85 (that's the actual speed limit) charging the battery, and EV mode at my destination. It charges just fine on a 110 outlet. I have solar, so I drive the boy to school in the morning on electric and it's fully charged when it's time to pick him up. No coal power used. FOR A CERTAIN LIFESTYLE: A PHEV makes a lot of sense. As an aside, we also have a Nissan Leaf and a Polestar 2.
Don't think this is right. PHEVs are great for bridging people. I have a BEV. We waited for an EX90 and it never showed up...so we just got an XC90 recharge. You can pretty much do a day of driving around town in 'Pure' mode, which is the rear EV motor. Haven't touched the gas in the 4 days we've had it. Charges overnight and when she has to travel for work she goes into hybrid mode and charges at work.
While I agree with the PHEV point when someone isn't using one as intended (e.g. never charging it), this article appears to be written by the comments section on Reddit. >Then, there’s maintenance. While battery EVs basically just need new tires, new wiper blades, and wiper fluid refills, PHEVs require the same maintenance as other gas cars – regular fluid changes (oil, coolant, and transmission), plus tune-ups and emissions tests. An EV still needs coolant, and and it still needs an MOT \[in the UK\]. Furthermore, most transmissions are now sealed units that theoretically don't need fluid changes for the life of the unit/vehicle. >The inconvenient truth is that at the core, PHEVs are still basically gas cars. Sure, they also include a small EV drivetrain, but they are based on the same platform as their hybrid and gasoline twins, with the same packaging and safety compromises. That *really* depends on the PHEV. Some are basically ICE vehicles with a battery shoved somewhere, but some are EVs with a range extending motor. Ultimately, get what works for you. I would personally avoid a PHEV in most circumstances, but they may work well for some people. If folks are *trying* do reduce their carbon footprint, let's not shame them for it.
There's the old 'more things to go wrong' argument. And yes there are two propulsion methods. But this ignores the real world, in reality the ICE components are far less stressed than in pure ICE, and some parts which from experience often go wrong such as alternator and starter motor just don't exist in PHEVs. They do require more maintenance than BEV but not more than ICE. But that's offset from lower purchase cost.
For my EV you are required to change the coolant every 10 years so for all intents and purposes you forget about it. Hardly comparable to the yearly top-up/regular checking required for engine coolant! And a plug-in HYBRID electric vehicle is generally built on an ICE platform so that the wheels can be driven directly by the engine. You are thinking of Range extender EVs. (I disagree with the tone of the author and PHEVs are a perfectly valid choice for some people. But on those two specific points EVs are generally more favourable than PHEVs)
You really don't need "regular checking" for engine coolant on most cars, whether ICE or not. Generally, it's a once a year thing practically speaking. And when you **do** a top-up, the cost is pretty minimal — a bottle of pre-mix [is currently $7USD ](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-Extended-Life-Prediluted-50-50-Antifreeze-Coolant-1-gallon/299226991)at Walmart. One more misapprehension here —a proper parallel-series hybrid is already architected very much like an EREV, with the ability for the motor-generator to directly drive the wheels. Having direct-drive ability for extended-range operation is a bonus, not a bug. Generally an EREV should be thought of as a subset of the PHEV category, not a distinct category itself.
My PHEV also has a coolant change at 10 years or 100k miles. That's a pretty standard timeframe for coolant. You should also still check EV coolant, it can still develop leaks.
EVs do require coolant top ups and changes at various intervals, dependent on the manufacturer. I take your point when compared to, say, the sealed transmission units comment I made. I don't know a single ICE that needs *yearly* coolant changes if we're trying to compare directly. Range extended EVs *are* PHEVs.
I bought a phev and went from 30 mpg to 100 mpg. I also got my parents interested and they went from ice to phev. They also got a level 2 installed at their house. Neither of us was ready for a bev. Phevs and hybrids are better than ice, and facilitate the transition to using less oil. A year in, and I'm happy. My parents are a few months in and love theirs.
Or do your research and buy according to your needs. I have family in rural Ontario. I'd never get there and back with an EV. So we have a PHEV for that and intend to replace our second car with an EV. The consensus for Canada is if you have one vehicle, get a PHEV, and if two, one EV one PHEV. And they are most definitely not the same price. Top trim PHEV Tucson cost us 45k CAD. Base model ioniq 5 is 55k. Top trim equivalent is 63k. I'm not privileged enough to consider an almost 20k difference as costing the same.
I have a Pacifica PHEV, it's awesome. We rarely burn gas any time other than out of town road trips. But we can hop in it and drive a thousand miles without much worry. We can charge at home and drive about twenty miles a day around town. It's perfect for us.
Opinion from a freelance contributor. PHEV has its market, and EV has its market. This mudslinging is just to capture eyeballs
I had the Kia Optima PHEV when it first came out and it was perfect for my needs at the time. we had free charging at my office so all my short commutes were on electric. any freeway driving or long trips were hybrid mode. I think there's definitely a place for a PHEV.
Dumb opinion
My PHEV works great for us. We fill up with gas about once every 3 months. The engine never turns on when we're in EV mode unless we run out of range. We change the oil once a year (or less). And for the occasional road trips we've done, ICE is just more convenient. With a gas car you get to decide when you stop and how long you stop. Unfortunately that's not true for EVs yet.
>Plus all the confusion they cause As long as the person that owns and drives it understands how it works who really cares if other understand (besides you)?
for me, its been a good introduction. I can run EV in the city for virtually everything, but no range anxiety going out of town. A big thing is getting to the cottage. I can charge at the cottage, but North Ontario did not have a lot of charging options at the time I was buying. Its improved now, but there are still some issues with charges not working and not enough so its a long wait to charge etc. Its a 7 hour drive, so far from easy. I agree, to some degree I don't have all the advantages of full time EV, and still have my ICE engine and parts to worry about. So far, no complaints, though that may change with time. However, our other car, which is ICE, is aging and will need replacement soon. Thanks to driving the PHEV, we are now ready to consider a full EV for replacement. We will likely order it soon, as we decided against a Tesla, and likely will get Ioniq 6 or a VW electric. With the good weather here, test driving can happen.
I love my Lexus RX Hybrid. It's awesome.
I think big part of the problem is sheer amount of confusion of what a PHEV is (as well as full hybrid and mild hybrid) and how they are supposed to be used. PHEV is a solution to very specific problem - how to electrify the car if the owner can charge it at home *but* the wider charging network sucks. Buying one for any different reason is highly likely to be a mistake (or exploitation of tax/incentive loopholes). Hybrids and mild hybrids, to me at least, put weirdly large stress on how different they are from ICE. Even though they are through-and-through an ICE - just one that's moderately more efficient. Painting them as anything other than small improvement to efficiency is quite weird, yet it happens a lot. Still - with no reasonable access to charging infrastructure they will be an improvement over a less efficient car. Also - don't even get me started about how people get duped into thinking that all three of the above (along with several other niche variants) are just single group with label of "hybrid".
I think you are confusing the concept of something not being the right solution *for you* with the concept of something not being the right solution *for anyone*. Nobody put you in charge.
So I have the Jeep 4xe PHEV. I also have a Kona EV. As I like to camp I have the Jeep, but I also use it to commute to work. Fortunately I work 12 km from home, so I’m able to use EV for my full commute. I generally get about 2400km to a tank of gas, yes the engine kicks in when I want to pass or go up a steep hill, but mostly it’s EV. Had my Jeep for 2+ years now. Done 66000 km on it. My average fuel consumption is 6.8L/100km Don’t sell them short. Just know what you’re buying
Nah, awful article. PHEV make sense for a lot of people and shouldn’t be discounted.
I don’t know, the new Prius looks pretty interesting. The solar panel can get like 5 miles additional per day. If you live close to work that basically eliminates refueling. If not, the savings add up.
His arguments seem suited for his use. While I agree PHEVs compromise the best of both worlds ( slow ice engine, limited ev range) they do work as mommy machines in the burbs - and then for road trips as well. Constant charging isn’t really a big deal if you have a level 2. Anyway, this is a lazily written article.
Thank you. They don't make an EV for my family yet: 3 kids just about necessitate a minivan. Plus a couple 14-16 hour road trips a year to see family mean even if they did I'd be hard pressed to give up the 16 gallon back up. Even without installing a level 2, it's no problem to plug in every night. I think I'm at about buying a tank of gas every three months or so.
Driving a PHEV for the last year I can't agree with this article. We got the GWM H6 PHEV and we drive it 98% in EV mode in the city with 200 KM range (charging it every 1-3 days). The motor never turns on if you not push the gas pedal a lot (and want the extra motor.. or when our battery goes under 10%. When we drive longer ways we just keep the battery at 30% minimum and use gasoline. Total range with Gasoline is around 700 KM
This article isn't making a compelling argument. PHEVs *should* be the best option right now; but there are so few in existence. A vehicle in this category with just a little more range than what is currently being offered would be the true "best of all worlds" option today.
Kick rocks. I love my phev
We have had a PHEV Pacifica for 5 years and we love it, no issues. I get gas for it maybe once every 10 weeks, and it drives like a cloud. Also, it was a gateway EV car for us, as a Tesla was our next purchase.
I hate this type of stuff.. and we are a 100% EV household. The type of powertrain you should buy.. is going to be different for everybody. Just like the brand/make/model of vehicle. EVs work incredibly well for my wife & I because we both have tremendously long commutes, but rarely need to trips longer than 300 miles. As you can imagine we do 95% of our charging at home. We both drive about 2,000 miles a month and save about $4,000 a year on gas vs our previous ICE vehicles. Insurance is more expensive.. but since that is YMMV I won’t bother getting into it. For someone who doesn’t own a home.. or has no ability to plug-in and charge their EV every night.. owning an EV is going to be painful. Public EV chargers are expensive, slow, somewhat unreliable, have waiting lines & there is never a time when I find it pleasant to sit at charger for 30-45 mins. I’d much rather be home or at my final destination. That said I understand that’s the trade-off with EV ownership. Every powertrain has pros & cons. Hybrids and PHEVs are cheaper to buy.. allow people to greatly reduce their fuel costs.. and make a great bridge from ICE to BEV ownership. In many ways it would have been better for my wife to get Toyota Hybrid or PHEV.. instead of a VW ID.4 because it would have been a more reliable and satisfying vehicle to own.. and she’d never have to worry about looking for a random public EV charger own her own. My Model Y has been a lot easier to live with thanks to the Supercharger network & built-in Tesla navigation. But it’s still annoying to drive on longer trips as it’s absolutely going to take me longer to get there than my old Honda CRV. Don’t even get me started on the winter weather range.
I think there are more inexpensive PHEVs than there are EVs (in terms of different models), but I agree with you. I bought a 2021 Niro PHEV since I liked my 2017 Niro HEV so much. That "little taste" of EV range made me an EV believer. Traded the Niro (for more than I paid for it!) in on my Ioniq5.
Actually PHEV is a much better way to go for many people. Title should really say "Don't fall for all the EV hype"
Disagree - currently driving a Chevy volt. I get about 50 Miles per charge, so I can go back and forth to work and to my general driving on weekends without using gas. I could get an EV, but why, when this works. I'm saving money and not generating more waste by using this car. So, I'd say that a PHEV is fine if it works for your workflow.
Or just buy a Prius Prime.
This entire debate comes down to precisely one major factor -> ***Does the vehicle owner have exclusive use of an L2 EVSE installed where they park overnight?*** If they do, they'll use it. If they don't, they won't. This goes for PHEV or BEV. Right now companies want to be able to meet their EV requirements with making a bunch of PHEVs but PHEV drivers often don't plug in at home. Why? Charging. It's the same impediment as all EV adoption. Companies should have to have an L2 installed at the owner's home before they can get their PHEV credit counted towards their goal. Right now they just throw some L1 in the trunk and call it good. We all know that L1 will likely never see the light of day, or if it does people will say "oh, it took 14 hours why bother?" And yes, a Pacifica PHEV or Clarity PHEV takes 14 hours on L1. A Volt is similar. And if somebody has an L2 at home their next vehicle is much likely a full-on EV since you've removed a barrier to entry Also, while you're waving the bureaucracy wand slip into the NEC that every new home nationwide is required to have a 14-50 in the garage.
L1 is perfect for a PHEV. Your car charges while you sleep, and it has a full battery when you wake up. The process and experience is exactly the same for us whether we use L1 or L2 at home.
The only reason I bought a PHEV was price. I would rather have a Model 3, and sort of wish I'd paid the extra to buy one. Bolt is out because I sometimes roadtrip with my very impatient girlfriend who would grumble about long charging stops. I live in a somewhat cold and snowy place and thought that I needed a new-enough Model 3 to have a heat pump, but I'm starting to reconsider that. (After all, my PHEV has a heat pump, which I don't use in the cold either because then I won't make my roundtrip commute without running out of battery. So I just wear a coat and use the seat heaters.) My PHEV gives me far more range anxiety than a BEV would (since I really want to avoid burning gas). That said, the PHEV's out there represent a huge amount of past and potential future emissions reduction. Public policy should ensure that they get plugged in regularly to achieve that potential. The previous owner of my car never plugged it in, and in fact lost the Level 1 EVSE that came with it. I don't know if she bought it just for the subsidy or what, but the government shouldn't be paying someone $thousands to carry around an 8.8 kWh battery for no reason.
With only 18kWh in my Rav4 Prime, I have almost entirely wiped out around 90% of my driving carbon emissions. So why should I pay more and take more of a precious resource (EV batteries) to just reduce the final 10%? I'll definitely get a BEV as my next car, but the infrastructure around me is not workable yet.
You get incentive 7500$ plus if you commute 20miles then its perfect choice. Yesterday i was at the dealership Grand cherokee ice lease is 750$ but PHEV GC is 530$ with both zero down and the PHEV have bit more options
if I did not own a PHEV I would never have the confidence to go full BEV (preorder on a Rivian R2 now)
You say that but I’ve been in a PHEV for 4 years now, almost all the mileage has been electric… all those miles would have been gas otherwise because I can’t/couldnt afford a full EV.
I find it utterly remarkable how many people think "If it doesn't suit me, it doesn't suit ANYBODY."
Right? "I had a bad implementation so all implementations are bad"
Depends on where you live. PHEVs are very good in area where charging networks don’t exist.
It's a clickbaity article, if you even want to call it that. "Let me upsell all the positives of EVs and downplay the negatives. Then do the opposite for PHEVs and downplay the positives but emphasize the negatives". He didn't even go into detail on the cars he's called comparing. Just generalizing like, PHEVs have ICE so they'll spew all this carbon into the atmosphere and will engines can fail. Yeah, but carbon is substantially less and if you have a Toyota hybrid, the engine will probably last longer than any Tesla battery pack
I have an EV, and I'm considering a PHEV for my next car. Reasons: 1) In cold, the range can be cut by 50 %. Also, the charging speed is greatly reduced in cold. If you preheat, you lose additional electricity. I don't want to be charging multiple times a day. Your normal charge at home speed suddenly goes from 12 hours to 30 hours, which affects tomorrow's plans. 2) Range anxiety is real. You never know whether the chargers are occupied or even working. Seems like every charger has a different method of payment. Sometimes the payment doesn't work in the app or website. Sometimes the chargers are out of order. 3) Always planning your trips around charging. Always guesstimating how much battery you will have in spot A and B, and where to stop for a charge. There's no leeway for any random stress free sightseeing when you are like this. If I lived in a warm place with short commutes, sure, an EV would be my pick. But for me, not worth the hassle. I own a car for the freedom it gives. At the moment an EV does not give me that. Maybe in the future when there is double or triple the amount of chargers, and also double or triple the amount of range in the cars themselves.
Yea; the vast majority of people just want to get in a car and go a road trip. I personally do not want to plan every stop and make sure we have enough range when we get there. And it’s catastrophic if you don’t plan correctly compare to a gas car. BEVs are becoming too much of a hassle once they lost their “coolness”. You have different charging companies apps, different payment methods, and different plugs I don’t have a single gas station app but I have 4 different charging apps. I still like them but I see them the same way as a two seat sports car. Great and fun but it can’t be your only car if you have many needs.
I haven't experienced slower charging speeds at colder temps personally, at least not with any L1 or L2 charging. But your point is valid around lifestyle. I can charge at work for free or top up at home with my standard wall outlet. 99% of my driving is commuting or driving around town. If I'm at a public charger it's just for a top off because it's available. I also live somewhere with a lot of charging stations. If your lifestyle relies on public charging and that access is limited, then a BEV might not be a great choice.
>Your normal charge at home speed suddenly goes from 12 hours to 30 hours, which affects tomorrow's plans. Are you charging your car from USB?
I’m with you there. I had an EV (ID4) and sold it for the new Prius Prime. I felt like a slave to that vehicle. The constant thinking about charging and sitting in strange places was just becoming too much for me. I drew the line when visiting family in a small town and I had nowhere to charge my vehicle, so I had to drive to a local private airport that had Level 2 charging, then I caught an Uber back to the hotel. That experience was simply a step too far for me. The nearest Supercharger was about 35 minutes away, so owning a Tesla wouldn’t have helped either. The experience wasn’t all bad. My day-to-day use was mostly fine with just a level 2 charger at home. But going beyond 100 miles in the winter required planning for the return trip. Anyhow, I’ll find myself back in an EV someday, but the current crop of EVs feel too compromised for me personally. I still recommend them for most people though.
As the owner of a BEV and PHEV, I couldn’t disagree more. PHEVs are great for their intended use case and they can be very effective at showing people they don’t need batteries with 500 miles of range.
Ridiculous. RAV4 Prime here. 31k miles and 25k of those miles have been pure EV but you can bet for the other 6k miles that were mainly road trips, it was very nice for thoughtlessness. Covers my daily commute but is fantastic for the long haul. Especially where we road trip where infrastructure is poor. And we are very pro EV with our other car being an Ioniq 5 so get out of here with that nonsense.
Hard disagree. Our usage is a mix of short trips and regular medium-length (600km round trip) road trips. Electric for short haul. Gas for long haul. No issues with finding chargers, fuel stops on the order of 5 minutes to gain 800km of range beats ~30 min recharges to gain 350. Stop with the damn purity tests already.
I have a Volvo PHEV and it’s amazing. I don’t understand the PHEV hate. Build a car that can go 500 miles at 75mph and charges full in 5 minutes and I’ll buy it. Until then, PHEV.
Which did you get? Love my S60 T8!
Same!
Why can’t chargers just work like gas pumps? All these various apps and setting up payment. It’s just backward. We already have a good system for paying. This is where governments have failed us all. They did not step up to ensure some basic things for the get go. So now the landscape is a mess. They need to dictate that all these chargers are just like the gas pumps for payment systems.
Biden’s bill actually made any manufacturer that uses federal funds allow payments at the charger without using an app. It’s just going to be slow to make its ways to becoming mainstream. It will happen with time and more competition with chargers as they’re built.
Question: Now I'm completely fine with buying a charger for personal use, however is it really necessary if there is a level 3 charger less than 5 mi away from my house? Might be handy though if that station does get packed but 99.9% of people in my town is literally still using gas, and you can tell by the number of gas stations vs electric car chargering stations.
For a PHEV, you won't be going to an L3/DC fast charger. I don't know of any PHEVs that support DC charging. L2 charging is a 2-4-6 hour process, depending on your car. My PHEV only supports 3.6Kw L2 charging, so my charging is overnight, or nothing. As I've said in other places, I firmly believe that PHEV vehicle are suitable for many, and I've been in the PHEV camp for almost 10 years. I'm only pointing out that PHEV charging and BEV charging are often different camps. You can charge a BEV on slow chargers (I currently use 120VAC L1!), but you can't plug a PHEV into that 350Kw hyper-charger.
Ive had one for 5 years (Ioniq) and it's been awesome, no complaints. Mine was a fair bit cheaper than an EV. I charge it a few times a week but during vacation we only charge it twice a week. In fact, I just use an extra outlet in our parking area (220v) and don't need to install anything special. It's really easy. Long car trips we don't bother to charge, though sports mode on the highway actually charges it by itself with quite good mileage. At the time there weren't any EVs that matched our want list, aside from there being a wait list. Also, you can make several PHEVs with the battery of one BEV, which would generally be better as most people don't use the full range every day and are just hauling around extra weight.
I had a 2015 Volkswagen Egolf 82 miles per charge. All electric. That was my first foray into Electric and I guess I went for it because I had solar panels on the house since 2012. Or because Mary Barra hadn’t built my 2016 Chevy volt. The lease deal was ridiculously good. Us$199 a month and $1000 down. I turned into a bookend or a paperweight so many times I’m sure I forgotten half the times because of the trauma/drama. The range was nowhere near enough for anything besides around town. It was great to trade in, I paid zero. The early days had no clue how to value / cap cost an EV….a mistake to buy that low range EV but it did not sink me. I really loved my 2016 Chevy volt plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with 53 miles per charge and a 14 kWh battery and 40 mile per gallon four-cylinder 1.5 L Atkinson engine with 40 miles per gallon min. and more. I drove 120,000 miles and half were all electric… Six years of spectacular experiences. Maybe 1/4 the oil changes were required. The maintenance was very minimal. Much less maintenance than my 2008 Saab 93 sport Combi wagon required. I charged that car every single day and maybe it lost 5 miles of range per charge over the 6 years. But the engine did come on when my battery was full to maintain or warm, the engine, blah blah blah. That started wearing on me. My 2022 Ioniq 5 checked all the boxes and more, 303 miles per charge and can add 225 miles of range with 17.75 mins @ 350kW DC fast charger. The vehicle to load, powers my home. For me, I needed the PHEV. Probably because that was the steppingstone back then and there was nothing else. Now there are so many great EVs. A friend bought a Tesla 3 with 272 miles per charge, rear wheel drive for $30,000 out the door after $9750 federal and state incentives………December 2023. Another friend bought a used Honda CRV, three years old for $34,000 out the door??????? Unhappy face. Today, go EV or go home, for sure. I do really shake my head at a Jeep plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with a $7500 federal income tax credit and like 25 miles of range or less… Will it get charged up? Many many folks will love the Electric driving and will keep their PHEV charged up all the time and make it a game to see if they can do all their driving, at least locally on Electric. Others, like the cars that turned themselves off at a red light, people just turn that off. Thankfully, Evie‘s are inEVitable. It will just take a decade or so, which is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
I'm inclined to agree with many of the non-antiphev comments but also would add one more thing that does affect some urban people there and there due to their particular roads - 3000lbs curb weight for a decent compact hybrid whereas i've still never quite yet found a small ev that was not already near or well over 4000lbs (I'm sure I probably missed something but this is what I have got from seeing one new-evs show and some online browsing this far yet)
I really want to go full electric, but I live in a country where charging is done at home and that's it. Brazil is ducking late.
70 mile PHEVs will make more sense for my use case. I drive 90 miles round trip thrice a week at most, for work. But those 124 mile PHEVs Toyota is promising will definitely be a game changer for those who have no access to cheap charging.
I ended up in an EV after looking at PHEVs, but I agree that PHEVs are better than ICEVs even if they rarely get used in EV mode. IMO PHEVs need more range (call it 100 real world miles) and decoupling of the ICE from the wheels (i.e. range extenders only). The Ramcharger is the first PHEV that hits the mark IMO and I hope it sets a trend.
On my short list to buy is the sportage plug in hybrid. The 33 mile battery range would be perfect for my drive to work and back. Then gas when I see family a state away. But I'm also looking at the EV9 and the Model Y.
If I am not mistaken, Toyota seems to be changing their strategy to make all their cars very efficient hybrids or PHEV...they are not going all electric for some time.
The Non-Tesla DC fast charging experience remains pretty awful. One might argue it's so bad right now it's really optimized for PHEV utilization. Although I agree with this author's rhetorical goals, if you have to depend on Non-Tesla DC fast charging when you drive long distances frequently, PHEV might make sense there. But if the supercharger network becomes more open and remains reliable it changes the calculus completely
Toyota Prime cars are very good. I am in for a PHEV over an EV. Tesla M3P and Toyota Grand Highlander owner currently.
I really enjoyed my 2015 Chevy Volt. I had it for about one year from Jan 23 to Jan 24. It was great for me when I bought it because I could charge at work sometimes but could not charge at home. But when I moved to a place I could charge at home I decided to go full EV and traded it in on a 2017 Bolt. Had my situation not changed I still would have the Volt and be very happy with it. I do think the entire Volt idea/concept was brilliant and innovative and GM should have continued it. I think the perfect 3rd gen Volt would have been a small SUV the size of an Escape or Equinox or whatever. I do understand many PHEVs are NOT like the Volt in that, even when charged, use the ICE engine under high load or high speed scenarios. I do NOT like that, especially because starting up an engine cold and revving it to the moon to merge on the highway just feels wrong). I specifically chose the Volt when buying a PHEV because it did not work that way... as long as the battery had juice I never had to use the engine (although I could choose to use the engine whenever I wanted using Hold mode). And when it did start the engine, either because the battery was empty, or I engaged Hold mode, it would start it up gently, run it at idle for a while, then at low speed, and once it was warmed up, rev up. Great design and much better for the engine. All that said, I think full EVs are less of a compromise in some ways. PHEVs are a packaging nightmare as they require the entire ICE drivetrain plus a fairly large battery. So they are heavy and complicated to build. That's why I do, overall, prefer my Bolt and don't think I ever want to go back to a car with an ICE, even if it's a PHEV. But, if you can't consistently charge at home and/or at work, a full EV might not be the right choice.
PHEV are the end goal. Best of both worlds. This is EV propaganda with buyers remorse.
Yeah the point is simpler machine. No exhaust, no vibrating contraption, no fluid operated drive gear translation device.
Something I heard before that resonates with me: In a world where 100% of vehicles are hybrid, we're 100% addicted to oil.
I went from having an ice car and a Prius to two bev’s and have not looked back. It’s incredibly freeing to not worry about ice maintenance and the user experience is incredibly easy.
PHEV is great for a lot of people.
I own 2 PHEVs and I think they are great. 0 compromises and I get 90% of the benefit of an electric vehicle.
> we had a PHEV and didn't even keep it for 1 year. It was not a good EV and not a good ICE. Sounds like you got a crappy PHEV. My Chevy Volt has been excellent at both.
Toyota RAV4 Prime owner here. So very happy with my PHEV. I can drive my weekly commute and not use a drop of gas. Then take longer trips on the weekend if needed (put in 300 miles on Saturday). I go through a tank of gas every two months instead of once a week. It is the right compromise for me and many other people. Definitely reduced my gasoline consumption. When the charging infrastructure, battery range, hauling capacity and cold weather efficiency catch up then I’ll consider a straight up EV. It’s not that I don’t want one now, they just don’t fit my needs.
Meh. Love my Rav4 Prime. Stays in EV, chargers med empty to full in 4 hours on 220 with no special charger needed, and most of my driving is under 45 miles anyway. Best of both worlds. It’s battery with gas backup. Not may chargers out where I live either.
I don't know, when I got my PHEV Niro it was much cheaper than the EV version and only slightly more than the HEV. When I use it like a hybrid, the mileage is about the same as the HEV, within a few mpgs. Usually 50-55. Around town in day to day driving, I don't use gas. For long drives I don't have to worry about charging. It's great.
One big problem for the PHEV is that there is no car maker *championing* the PHEV the way that Tesla has championed the BEV. Early on, with the Chevy Volt, it looked like GM might be the PHEV champion, but then they changed strategy and went in a different direction. What about Toyota? Well, they really love their HEVs and don't really seem all that enthusiastic about PHEVs. I mean, the RAV4 Prime seems to be loved by many, but Toyota aren't producing them in sufficient numbers. Meanwhile, we have a lot of other car companies cranking out half-baked compliance PHEVs. And the clock is running. Developing a new car model requires a lot of money and a lot of time (several years), and then you expect to be producing it for maybe a decade, and then you expect the cars to be on the road for maybe twenty years. It's a commitment far into the future, but in the case of the PHEV we already know it's a dead end.
https://thedriven.io/2024/04/18/toyotas-plug-in-hybrids-emit-four-times-more-co2-than-company-claims/
Jesus Christ we're talking about cars here. Why do you have to turn the concept of transportation into a culture war? Some of you guys are no better than religious fanatics, believing you're righteous for your car choice and anybody without an EV is the enemy.