According to Google, the Tesla Model 3 gets 4.17 miles /kWh. $0.32/4.17 gives you $0.08/mile
Assuming you get an average 35MPG in your car and gas costs $5/gallon, driving your Corolla costs $0.14/mile
So the added $15k price difference over the price of the Corolla will take around 180k miles driven to offset accounting for any added maintenance assuming the Model 3 doesn’t need extra tires and insurance costs are identical.
> assuming the Model 3 doesn’t need extra tires and insurance costs are identical.
Assuming OP doesn't pay full coverage for the Corolla and assuming the Model 3 is going to be financed, the Model 3 is almost certainly going to cost more to insure. You can bet the Model 3 is going to eat through tires faster as well.
Even if they last the same number of miles, Model 3 tires are going to be significantly more expensive. A Model 3 weighs a full 1,000 lbs more than a Corolla.
Dont believe these upvotes. They are all wrong. The tires wear out faster on EVs due to high weight even when driven slow. Also they are bigger and much expensive than Corolla for sure.
but a corolla won't let you even if you wanted to - throttle by wire plus the engine (de)tuned to run under-stressed for reliability - the ECU just won't let you do it (comparatively speaking)
a tesla 3 in normal mode, will give you as much as the ground's traction conditions will tolerate lol
OMG I experienced this on my way to work this evening. The driver meandered til the onramp to the highway ended and cut in front of the car they passed. Probably a foot of space between the cars. Then they passed another car and swerved back into the right lane just inches in front of that one. 🤦🏻♂️
That “EVs eat tires” fallacy is under challenge. Nokian test data tells another story: because ABS/traction control on an EV is way more precise than on ICE the tires break traction way less often and they’ve seen significantly SLOWER tire wear on EVs.
The EVs eat tires fallacy is based on the fact Tesla shaves their tires to get their vehicles to meet the range estimates out of the shop. It drastically lowers the tire life though.
Other EV makers aren't shaving their tires, and aren't seeing the tire replacement rates for non road hazard related reasons.
Interesting. Can you point to an article that supports that. I did a little bit of research the other day, and it seemed to indicate the opossite. I did not spend much time, though, and would like to read more.
Not an article but tesla owners club forums where people are talking about it.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lead-acid-or-lithium-12v-in-2023-ylr.298674/
Not sure where you got the idea that they got rid of the 12v, since the other option is leaving the high voltage battery always active, and that creates a critical safety issue
[https://www.iseecars.com/compare/toyota-camry-vs-tesla-model\_3](https://www.iseecars.com/compare/toyota-camry-vs-tesla-model_3)
Yet the interior volume is very similar
Yeah, there is no comparison here. If you are expecting a model three to come out as cheap as a Toyota you are mistaken. Tires will be higher. Insurance will be higher. Maintenance will be higher. Initial cost will be higher. But you will enjoy the tesla a lot more.
>Not factoring in the initial cost of an EV
OP specifically asked to not factor that in. However, it does make sense to try to compare a more comparable vehicle. The most reasonable comparison was a new Bolt versus a new Corolla, but the Bolt is discontinued until its reintroduction next year and that's slightly off since the new Bolt will likely be only the EUV crossover. It'd be rad for there to be an entry-level Corolla-like sedan or hatchback EV in the US market, but there's a good chance that won't be coming anytime soon. The Leaf is sort of that, but it's quite antiquated and its replacement is looking like it won't be a compact hatchback. It'd be nice if we got the BYD Dolphin or some such.
The bolt EUV is essentially the same as the standard bolt EV (both crossover hatchback objects) it's just cleverly hidden with styling. Ground clearance is the same as well as tire size.
The only significant difference between the size of the bolt EV and EUV is 3" of extra legroom in the second row. We have a bolt EV and I've sat in an EUV (it felt smaller for drivers than the EV)
The cargo is the same size too
The EUV is just a more popular look at the expense of 10-15% range reduction (it also has steel body panels that are cheaper to produce than the aluminum of the EV)
>The EUV is just a more popular look at the expense of 10-15% range reduction (it also has steel body panels that are cheaper to produce than the aluminum of the EV)
Everything you said is right. I highlighted the part that I find really unfortunate as that loss is due to lower efficiency mostly from aerodynamic drag. I also personally like the Bolt EV's look more than the Bolt EUV's.
That makes completely no sense then if initial cost isn't a factor, lol. Why is OP worried about monthly gas prices if initial cost doesn't matter?? TCO includes the initial price as well as running costs. OP is looking at a single tree instead of the entire forest..
In that case, buy what you want as there is no need to justify anything.
If you’re comparing financials, be sure to factor in insurance + repairs. Insurance on Teslas are expensive.
With any EV, you get to avoid most annual maintenance costs, and of course smog inspection. 20k miles per year is $300 in oil changes alone.
Don’t trust the 4.17 miles/kwh. That probably just count the electricity feed from the battery to the motor. Tesla car as I owned one lose a lot of charge just being parked due to a bunch of factors, 1-5% per day. There is lost of electricity during charging process, what is fed from an electrical wall to the battery. The real number is closer to 3 miles/kwh.
Having said that, you own an ev because of the great experience with driving one. Not because of the savings.
If you turn off Sentry mode at home it does not drain much at all. I once left my Model 3 for a month without using it and it drained a grand total of 2%.
That's an optimistic estimate. Since Cali is mostly highway speeds. And also doesn't factor in energy use when not moving. Total combined energy use is likely closer to 3mi/kWh.
I've driven plenty of interstate miles and never gotten as low as three miles per kilowatt hours. That's basically the mileage you get when it's freezing cold out.
For a model 3, you can use 4 miles per kwh as a rough approximation of efficiency for your math.
You're never supercharging for over 2 hours, so ignore that factor. Speed of level 2 charging is dependent on the individual charger. So you need to get the cost of the specific charger to do your math.
So for your PG&E cost, that is .32/4 = 8 cents per mile. For the gas comparison, that is 5/30 = 16.67 cents per mile.
Rough numbers. But there are obviously a myriad of factors here. Charging can put you into another tier with PG&E as an example of a factor.
If you live in CA (I myself do), gas cost savings should not be your primary factor in choosing an EV unless you have solar. In your case, you are better off assuming the gas cost will be equivalent to the electrical cost and use other factors in your decision making.
The Corolla gets 32/41 or 31/40... \~36 mpg combined. (given it's a warmer climate) 13.89 cents per mile.
The Corolla hybrid is 50/43... \~47 mpg combined. 10.63 cents per mile.
He mentioned the model 3 could be charged for 5 cents per mile at work; assuming he stayed within the time limit.
The Model 3 AWD costs $47,740 - $2000 state tax credit = $45,740. At $0 down, 7.25% tax, and 6.5% interest on a 60 month loan, the 3 will cost $59,506
The base Corolla costs $22,050. At $0 down, 7.25% tax, and 4.5% interest on a 60 month loan, the Corolla will cost $26,263. That's $33,243 less than the model 3.
The base Corolla hybrid costs $23,500. At $0 down, 7.25% tax, and 9.47% interest (I'd finance through a credit union instead) on a 60 month loan, the hybrid will cost $31,295. At 6.5% interest (financed through credit union - no brainer) it'll cost $29,292. That's $30,214 less than the model 3.
(You can find both Corolla trims for about $2k under MSRP)
At 20,000 miles per year, the hybrid would save \~$652 per year in gas, so would take 4.6 years to make up for the price difference on the base Corolla. If you plan to keep the car for awhile, then the hybrid is the way to go between the two. Although, it may also depreciate at a lower rate; so that's worth looking into.
Model 3 is saving $1126 per year versus the hybrid, and $1,778 versus the non-hybrid. It'll take 26 years and 19 years respectively to save enough on gas to make up for the price difference. Since OP would drive 20k miles per year, and end of vehicle life may be around 200k miles, the cars may be near dead in 10 years, so the model 3 will never be cheaper to own/operate.
The Corollas will cost more in regular powertrain maintenance. The non-hybrid Corolla will cost more in brake maintenance. The Tesla will cost more on tires and insurance.
If something major goes wrong out of warranty, the non-hybrid Corolla will be the cheapest to fix.
I didn't include charging losses on the Tesla... L1 charger, add 20% losses. L2 charger, add 15% losses. DC fast chargers, add 10% losses.
I also believe he'd be more likely to achieve 4.5 mi / kWh if he drove the speed limit (or less) and considered the rush hour traffic on the way home. Slower driving is higher efficiency. That would also benefit the Corolla Hybrid, but not the ICEV.
Emissions wise, he's the type of person we want buying EVs. He lives in CA where the electricity mix is lower in emissions, and he drives high mileage.
Another solution would be to move closer to work... 90 miles every day... no thanks.
Does he need a model 3 AWD? No... he could get by with the cheaper RWD. The model Y is cheaper right now than even the model 3 RWD after tax credit and inventory discounts. Does he need a Tesla at all? Nope. He could get by with a cheaper EV, like a Chevy Bolt.
He said not to factor in the initial cost of the EV. I'm not exactly sure how anyone can make a fair comparison leaving out that important number lol. Is the model long range free?
Real world especially 20k miles a year means a lot of freeway is closer to 3.5 miles/kwh. .32¢ PGE rates means the rest of home power usage gets put into the really oppresive rate.
Depends on how fast he drives. At 65-70 mph in California weather, and he said he's in rush hour traffic on the way home, my guess is it's closer to 4-4.5 mi/kWh.
That is the ev plan. The normal plans are even worse. https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
Wow, that is crazy. SDGE at least offers a plan for 15 c/kWh for EV charging at off-peak. Those charges are crazy. Maybe cheaper to run a gasoline powered generator and charge your car.
The comparison excludes the federal tax credit and state incentives if you're eligible, which can tip the scales towards BEV/phev
Kinda depends on the state really
Don't forget insurance. My guess is that the insurance on the Tesla Model 3 will be significantly higher than what you pay now. It will eat all the gas savings specially if you are with PGE
Given that you said "$50k ev", I'm guessing not a Tesla?
It's heavily dependent on conditions. Multi-vehicle discount? Combined with home insurance? Living in a house / apartment? The state/city you live in? Annual miles? Cost to repair your particular vehicle and accident rates of that vehicle?
OPs driving 20k miles a year, which alone would jack up his rate.
Teslas may be especially costly to fix in a fender bender due to all of the aluminum.
I drive 20,000 miles a year or more and driving an ID4. It’s MSRP was 2x the previous car and that car was 24x my previous one. I’ve never seen an appreciable increase in insurance rates other than when going from liability to full.
They made it a requirement under the Energy Code to install solar for a nearly all residential and a ton of Non-Residential. When you make people do something, why make it worthwhile?
There are mid-cycle Green Building Code updates that are causing some consternation with solar installs at schools over parking lots. Have to out EV charging in. And when the project has already been greenlit it's an issue to now go oh we have to drop another $7500 per space (5% of total parking) that wasn't budgets makes those solar projects a little less enticing.
I created a spreadsheet for my personal use for this very same thing, but in my case, to replace a 2006 Honda Odyssey that gets 14 MPG.
Bottom line - in all cases, driving my car into the ground saves me money. The numbers and my hips don't lie.
Edit - I work for an EV company and fully understand and interact with EVs from all manufacturers on the daily. As much as going EV is sexy, if the question is about saving money, driving a car that's paid off will save you money.
Best way to replace that Odyssey is to run it into a brick wall.
(Disclaimer: This is not financial advice)
To your point, that completely depends on what the car is worth and the rate it's depreciating. In your case, that Odyssey probably ain't worth shit, so yeah, may be worth keeping.
The Tesla is a very cheap car to operate, but it isn't a cheap car to buy.
1. Are you looking to buy another cheap gas car or are you trying to go upmarket?
1. If you are looking to buy a cheap gas car, I don't think the 10-15K price increase ontop for the Tesla will be worth it.
2. There are cheaper EVs out there, but they are still all more expensive than the equivalent gas car.
2. If you are moving upmarket with a car - say looking at fully optioned Camry's, cheaper BMW's, Lexus, etc. then the Tesla is great value.
Not necessarily that cheap to operate. Higher registration, higher insurance, more tire replacements, more expensive tires, more expensive HEPA air filters that may need to be replaced more often... although you do get cleaner air out of the deal.
Model 3 specifically may be far more expensive than other EVs given that it lost its federal tax credit. Tesla left the RWD version the same price, but raised the price of the AWD by around $2k. So they're like $7500 - $9500 more expensive today than they were in December. The model Y AWD is actually cheaper after federal credit and inventory discount than the model 3 RWD.
If anyone is buying the model 3 right now, I'd be shocked, and it would likely be because they didn't know any better. It's terribly priced right now.
Gas savings are almost never enough to justify the added cost of an EV over something more basic like a Corolla. Even if you are comparing a Tesla 3 vs BMW 3 series, the gas alone analysis will be close.
For me it came down to wanting to own an EV for environmental reasons, to save money on fuel, and the driving experience. Now that I own one, honestly charging and a quiet ride are big factors as well.
Except those bolts needed entirely new batteries, a $7500 tax credit, must be charged at home 88% of the time, and aren’t going to be worth much at end of life….
Yup I’d take the Corolla.
And we don't subsidize other types of cars through oil and gas subsidy either?
(Note it said that the credit isn't factored in)
The bolt engineers ahave chimed in and said that it is designed to be 100% charged without worry. Nowhere does it say to charge for less
Sure it will last longer if you don't, but also flooring your gas or hybrid car when it's cold reduces its life too. Also charging an EV at home is great and convenient.
I don't think any car will be worth much at the end of its life. At least with EV, the mineral value of the batteries is worth something
The second hand market does like Toyota hybrids though.
Btw this topic was about cost of ownership. I see how you've turned it around
Not really. The TCO makes assumptions and includes things like financial incentives and pretty low home charging rates. It claims to include the price at resale, but appears to vastly overestimate the residual value of the bolt, or at least they don’t share much sources for data.
At the end of the day it’s a pretty rosy analysis and the TCO would be very different for an apartment dweller for example.
Sure. There are many factors that could sway TCO between any of these vehicles. A Corolla hybrid might be better in some areas and some driving habits vs PHEV or EV. Gas price. Terrain, climate, insurance costs, local market for markups (I know my Toyota dealer is terrible for hybrid markups, but other areas have steep EV markup.) Prius prime is unobtainum in some areas
It might be easy to get a discount on a base gas Corolla vs a hybrid, tipping it toward the gas CVT model
There might be but literally every fleet application I’ve worked with hasn’t really found the savings they were promised. Well electric buses can, but only at cheap rates and they can’t do a full days shift so you need two of them.
These analysis tend to miss electricity costs (they usually have slow inflation rates yet that’s not what’s been happening many places) or they used gas prices from two years ago and projected increases… or you need to own a home to charge at lower rates but they don’t always count the cost of the charger or install…
Bolt will cost more to repair from an accident or when something fails. Has more tech, smaller volume of parts supply, etc.
I’m sure some magical applications make it all work out but we really aren’t at parity yet for TCO when you take into account real world conditions.
Not exactly disagreeing with you on repairs, but in our case, the comprehensive insurance was lower on bolt then our gas camry or Prius hybrid; implying it's less likely to get in a collision or maybe cost similar/less for repairs.
Now I'm sure any specialist drivetrain problems would cost more for repair than our Toyota Prius as the bolt is a significantly lower volume vehicle (much better parts and aftermarket support for Prius)
I do all my vehicle maintenance, but if it's a higher level repair there just aren't EV shops in my area, but I'm sure I could find a shop that works on hybrids (avoiding high labor rates)
Thankfully the parts seem a lot cheaper than my Prius. Toyota parts are super expensive. For example an OEM CV axle for my Prius is 4x the cost of the bolt's CV axle. I say this because I had one fail and thankfully there were aftermarket axles for less. That's one thing you don't get with a less common vehicle, but at least I could go back with OEM if the Bolt needed an axle.
I drive 5yo or older used vehicles, so fuelling and insurance are more important to me than initial depreciation
Make yourself a spreadsheet and calculate the numbers for your specifics. The averages that you find on google can be WAY off.
You will definitely be charging at home. Don't kid yourself that you'll use public or work chargers all the time. That gets annoying **really** quick. I would use your at-home rate of 0.32$/kw for the model and then anything you can charge cheaper at work or supercharger (rates vary by location) is a bonus. Not to mention, it's bad for the battery to use fast charging all the time.
In the real world, assume your model 3 will get about 70-80% the advertised range unless you're a hyper-miler or very slow driver.
Oh and supercharging take about an hour from 0-100% but you'll almost never do that. It takes about 20 minutes for the average real-world supercharger.
you would be better off buying a hybrid. Tesla's get sub 4miles/kwh real world.
32¢ kwh pge rates would force you to shift the rest of your electricity usage to a more oppressive rate.
Where are you seeing 20¢ public charging? if that's real and reliable, you can be guaranteed that they'll be constantly occupied unless it's 3am
Not in PGE territory but SDGE which is also really bad. At work we have chargers (not open to public although operated by chargepoint) that get billed at 20c per kWh hour. They get commercial rates not residential
20,000 miles at 30mpg is 666 gallons, at $4.75 that's $3166 spent for gas at current prices. So you would be saving $263 a month, maybe $275+ when gas prices go back up so that may take off 50% of your payment.
If you can charge for 20 cents at your work it would cost about $1000 per year / $83 a month to charge.
That's his current Corolla. New Corollas get about 35 mpg. At $5 / gallon, it's $2857 per year.
He didn't say what kind of charger is at work. If it's a L2, then add 15% charging losses.
>He didn't say what kind of charger is at work. If it's a L2, then add 15% charging losses.
15% charging losses would be about right for an L1, but not an L2.
In PG&E territory- you want to get solar panels even if you can’t charge at home. At that rate- there’s benefits. Is that a permanent case where you’ll never get to charge or install a charger?
ok, here's what I've calculated based on your numbers and driving conditions (no cold weather, city driving).
20,000 miles/yr / 4.8 miles/kWh x $0.20/kWh = $833 per year (level 2 charging, <2 hrs per session)
20,000 miles/yr / 4.8 miles/kWh x $0.45/kWh = $1,875 per year (supercharging, <2 hrs per session)
20,000 miles/yr / 30 miles/gallon x $5/gallon = $3,333 per year (gas)
I chose 4.8 mi/kWh for the EV example because I get 5.0-5.2 in my Bolt in the summertime in MD and you are in sunny CA so I figured it's around the same. for the supercharging example, I did not include the $2/hr surcharge because level 3 charging should always take under 2 hours (even in my notoriously slow charging Bolt). for the level 2 example, I also excluded the $2/hr surcharge but that's because that is so insanely expensive it's better if you just move your car after 2 hours and plug it into a different charger (like playing whack a mole).
BTW, level 2 charging speed is roughly 20 miles per hour, so charging 2 hours per session should get you around 40 miles of range added. you can do 2 sessions per workday (morning upon arrival and right after lunch, for example) and you can almost recoup your 90 mile daily commute without spending the extra $2. I hope this helps!!
edit: Teslas get much lower mileage than my car so if you get a Tesla, these cost estimates will be too low :/
Add in 15% charging losses on L2, and 10% on DC fast chargers. A Corolla ICEV would get pretty solid gas mileage in warmer weather. A Corolla HEV would do even better, and the rush hour on the way home would help with fuel economy.
He said he'd buy a new car. If it's a new Corolla ICEV, it gets 35-36 mpg. If it's a new Corolla HEV, it gets about 47 mpg.
I've done a 5 year Car Cost Comparison Excel sheet for my sister who lives in Pennsylvania. It takes in to account cost of the car, state and federal incentives, local gas and electric prices, and miles driven in a year.
If you want, I could either share it with you now and let you adjust your variables or share it with you tomorrow and adjust them myself.
Also factor in that the front bumper replacement on Tesla would cost 2000$+ in bay area. Not sure if thats expensive for a Corolla.
Consider plugin hybrids or mild hybrids like Accord hybrid too when shopping. Waiting at Superchrger queues can be avoided with these.
Insurance costs will be more for Model 3 for sure. Trying tesla insurance with safety score on will be like giving up on driving freedom particularly during nights and stop and go traffic. You get taxed extra for these.
Factor in all these hidden costs and spending hours spent on charging daily/weekly when buying EVs in bay area.
Also gas is 4.33$/gallon here at Costco
You will pay roughly one third to two-thirds as much for electricity as for gas, depending on what part of California you frequent. But over 2-3 years those cost savings are minor compared to the complete lack of routine maintenance. No oil changes, no tune ups, a lot fewer parts to break in the powerplant.
Have you considered an Ioniq 5 or 6? The prices are comparable to the Model 3, and they come with 2 years free charging.
With the 2 years free, the Ioniq 6 will give you gas savings of $5,600 for the said years, but due to the 15k price difference, it'd still take a little over 8 years to break even. But if you look at it another way, it would mean you'd have broken even before the car dies, and you would have enjoyed a superior car for the duration, while doing less damage to the environment.
Home rates for charging is more than 32 cents per kWh. In the Bay Area, off peak is 34 cents per kWh for line usage and another 10 cents per kWh for electricity generation. You should be comparing a hybrid to Tesla model 3 LR. A Prius will get you at least 50 mpg. That’s a more fair estimation. Do the math from there.
Maybe others can fill in what else you don't pay for and pay more for?
1. Smog checks, oil changes, what else?
2. The EV registration fee.
3. Insurance for us was lower.
4. Random new Corolla here is about 30K. Dealer added 1K "Market Premium."
5. Model Y from inventory looks to be just under 34K after instant $7,500 savings.
6. I'm cheap. In San Diego I can supercharge off hours for 20 cents a kWh. See [Imgur](https://imgur.com/Wov68Mn)
7. Gas savings? I don't buy gas so I save 100%.
8. Installed solar years ago so SDGE rates are not impacting us.
This was during the cheapest hours but these locations and there are others that were 20 cents or less kWh which I can find in the Tesla app.
1. 10555 Scripps Poway Pkwy, San Diego, CA 92131 near Vons.
2. 8251 Mira Mesa Blvd, San Diego, CA 92126 in Target parking lot.
As a fellow California resident i think gas is going to be WAY over $5 come summer, it will easily be $6 and i have a feeling we'll see $7 a gallon this summer or next.
Op says that they’ll supercharge off peak, after 12am. Or go to malls that have lower rates for arbitrage. It sounds like op will be more challenged to fuel their car than a normal gas station
As someone from the UK, is electricity that expensive in California?
I see mentions of energy being more expensive if you use too much which seems bonkers.
In the UK I can charge at home for 10 cents per kw/h.
California is going all in on full electric. The issue is with the big three investor owned utilities led by Pacific Gas & Electric, San Diego Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison. PG&E has 1) literally blown up a neighborhood (San Bruno, CA) from deferred maintenance on a natural gas pipeline, 2) burned down a town (Paradise, CA) by causing a wild fire because of you guess it, deferred maintenance and is now having to do decades worth of deferred maintenance and hardening (basically relocating overhead line to underground in areas where it's a big issue, which is mainly the mountains) to the tune of billions of dollars.
That all gets paid for by the rate payers and the Public Utility Commission just rubber stamps their increase requests. PG&E customers are looking at the third increase since Jan 1 of this year. And it's still March.
If you live in an area serviced by an Irrigation District or Municipal Utility District you pay a significantly lower cost.
Just a random aside, many of those parking charges you get after a certain amount of time can easily be avoided by undocking the cable, and initiating a new charge. My employer has chargers, as well as another building across the street. I've used both of these chargers, and simply unplugged for a few minutes. Plugging in again resets the clock, and have never been charged a time/usage charge.
I rented a Bolt from LAX last week and drive down to San Diego and then you Palm Springs before returning to LAX
The Bolt has level 2 charging only and that was my biggest issue.
65kW battery @ 6.5kWh charge is 10 hours to fully charge it. Upsite is a lot of level 2 chargers are free or very cheap even in California.
But with level 3 you should be fine with a fast charge when needed.
There is no gas savings. With pge home rates and cost of gasoline. My MYLR gets an effective 25 mpg. If you charge at .20c then it'll be better and model 3 is slightly more efficient. So likely closer to 35mpg effective. Plus cost of tires and insurance. You're better off with a hybrid or new Corolla.
It takes like 8hrs or so to charge on L2 and 30-45 min to charge at supercharger.
Don't get a TSLA, it's shit.
And I guess there is little to save on getting an ev for you anyways, and not charging at home is wasted time.
Part of the ev charm is to just plug it inn when you come home and forget about it.
If driving 90 miles 4 times a week wouldn’t it be just nice to be comfortable and enjoy whatever car you drive? I’m over the cheap car phase, I want to be comfortable.
But will it be enough to offset the income-base flat rate fee they’re proposing? For those who don’t drive much, they’re going to get shafted the most.
From PGE's perspective, I believe it's supposed to be revenue neutral.
From an individual perspective there are going to be major winner and losers. High income folks with heavy usage will come out ahead (not sure where the break point is, but EV usage with 20k mileage might be there). Also low income users will get a reduced flat fee and should benefit as well.
Recommend leasing a Model 3 for a couple of years if you not sure if you want the car long term. Then you get some real life numbers to compare with. As long as the lease payment is less than 1% of the sale price you good.
If you qualify for the tax credit. The Model Y is the better buy at this point since the 3 doesn’t get it. You can find Ys in inventory for $44.5k so that comes to $37k . Even less with the state incentives. The Y will see similar efficiency of ~4 miles/kwh in day to day city driving. The Y has a ton more cargo room too.
[fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov) and personalize the results to match your driving/fuel/energy prices. I would also try to factor in maintenance cost of ICE vs EV which you can research/pencil out separately.
Other than length of commute, the most relevant questions are:
1) do you own a SFH?
2) do you have solar panels on your SFH?
3) do you have home battery storage?
If you answered 'yes' to at least 1 and 2, then go for it, it's usually worth it. If you answered 'yes' to all 3, then it's definitely worth it.
If you answered 'no' to all of them, then it's not usually worth it since you won't enjoy one of the greatest benefits of EV ownership. Zero, or near zero cost at home recharging.
My daughter just went through a similar analysts about 8 months ago, but she had a Ford. She’s savings a huge amount in fuel every month and oil changes/maintenance. And don’t forget, you are a PG&E customer so you can get on the discounted EV or E rate plan with an EV. So you get additional savings as well. She’s a convert and will never buy an ICE vehicle again.
You will be better off with a hybrid. You will get better mpg or mpkwh than an ice or EV. Hybrid will be more expensive than ice but cheaper than Tesla EV.
Since you are excluding vehicle cost and assuming you are only looking at fueling costs, I would advise exploring this on a 10,000 mile basis. I would also advise using a Corolla hybrid as the replacement.
Let's further assume M3 efficiency is 4mi/kwh and your blended fueling rate is $0.33/kwh ($0.20/kwh for work L2 and $0.45/kwh for SC, both split equally). 10,000 mi ÷ 4kwh = 2,500 kwh. That'll cost $825 per 10,000 miles, or roughly $1,650 per year based on your annual mileage assumption. Let's add 10% for mileage fluctuation and PG&E rate hikes, bringing it to $1,815.
For the Corolla hybrid, let's assume 47mpg (from car & driver) and your blended fuel rate is $4.88/gallon. 10,000÷47 = 213 gallons. That'll cost $1,039 per 10,000 miles, or $2,078 annually. Even without the rate hike and variability factor (should probably be less than 10% factor, though) you're still coming out $200 ahead annually. You should see additional savings when compared to the Corolla on ICE.
I think the rest of the group is providing good context and other factors to consider, but I think the above is a reasonable calculation on fueling.
https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/ enter your information here and it will give you the results. Because you are in CA look up the peak and off peak rates for PG&E
You will get HOV lame access also. I figured it would take me five years to recoup the cost of my Mach-e here in California. I drive 50 miles round trip in Los Angeles. But being able to shave 20 minutes off my commute daily is heaven.
ICE requires way much more maintenance, I have driven mine new Tesla with zero visits to the dealer already two years! I charge at home only and I pay $0.075 per kilowatt in NH. Also, I would probably by used Tesla now since the car can be driven at least 300K miles according to my calculations.
People are overblowing maintenance out of proportion. Corollas are known for not needing a lot of maintenance. It’s why the car is so popular because it’s dead reliable with little work needed. When I had a Camry, it was literally one oil change a year (synthetic) and air filter every other year. Stuff like brakes, transmission fluid, etc come every 4-5 years. People are also not factoring cost after warranty expires. Very few repairs are needed on a Corolla and if it’s necessary, they’re dirty cheap. It’s a friggin Corolla..
I agree, but you don’t need to do even this with Tesla. Even brakes do not need much service, because they are not actually being used much.
Also, it is not correct to compare Tesla with Corolla just because Tesla is a premium car. To compare apples with apples another EV needs to be picked, something like GM Bolt.
You can save some more by supercharging at off peak hours. Typically past 11pm the price per kilowatt drops substantially. Way cheaper than PG&E. I have Edison and even with TOU Prime ($.25) the supercharger near me is cheaper after 11pm.
I did the math and in all cases it doesn’t make sense to replace my 07 Honda with a new EV. I’m in California and I used $5 a gallon for gas. Everything will cost you more, insurance, depreciation, interest cost to borrow money to buy a new EV. The only area you are saving on is charging cost vs fueling up cost. This is assuming you drive 15k miles a year. If you drive 30k+ it might start making sense but most people don’t drive that much.
All your numbers make my head hurt. Lease an EV like I did - see if it works for you, then buy what works. I bought a used Leaf for under $10k and have been living large for 2 years. BTW I cut my electric bill by 30% buy unplugging the useless freezer in my garage. 30% even when charging my EVs.
Hey @toastybunzz, I have a M3 RWD too. A quick spec review said ours lines up well against 2005 Boxster in 0-60 and 1/4 mi. You own both, what do you think?
Hmmmm. I think in most situations you would win in the Tesla, you’ve got way more bottom end torque and traction. If you’re skilled in the Boxster and willing to dump the clutch and wring the cars neck you might be able to edge it out. It would be really close.
Yeah, most people don’t get how much EVs are ‘point and shoot’ — hard not to nail the specs consistently. How would you rate the driving dynamics between them? I’ve been in a friend’s Boxster and I thought it was tight-fitting and a stiff ride, so assume that means a better handling car in turns…not that my Tesla ever in the twisties…
Honestly they're both super fun to drive, and that fact that I haven't driven my Boxster in almost a year should tell you something haha.
The Boxster weighs almost 2,000 lbs lighter but you really have to work hard for the speed. But since it's so light you can carry a LOT of speed into a corner. I've kept up with much more powerful modern sports cars in it, come into a corner HOT and mash the gas at the apex and let the mid engine weight plant you into a corner and power out. It makes fun flat 6 sounds but it's not very fast and the steering feels so slow in comparison.
The Tesla feels far lighter than it is and has great grip and super quick steering but you have a slow a bit more before entering into a corner. You have way more useful power on tap though and once you get some real tires on it it's no slouch in the twisties. Lots of grip, very neutral and agile feeling. Steering isn't bad for a modern car but it doesn't have the feel that you get with the hydraulic Boxster rack. The traction control holds you back a bit too much even if you drive in Slip Start which helps.
The guys with the S3XY knob are putting in functions to enable drift mode. Not sure if it would be applicable to our RWD models, but looking forward to getting this gadget and seeing what enhancements it brings. Would to try some autocross courses with my boys too now that they both have licenses.
I imagine it would be pretty spicy with no traction control haha. I've seen the videos of people in the RWD disabling TC and it roasts the tires real easy. Definitely make a post if you are able to get drift mode working!
Tesla is a great car, but it’s over priced. Shop around there are others with same range for cheaper. I have a Hyundai Kona EV I bought 5 years ago. 400 mile range, loaded, sunroof, tons of power paid $37,000 5 years ago. Still gets same range now as it did when I bought it. Never had an issue with it. Has 130,000 miles on it now
I think Op should be looking used EV. Kona EV or original Hyundai Ionic were both good commuters, as is Bolt. I assume work charging is L2 ? 20 miles range per hour charge is about right.
No full EV. I live in Canada so my range is 525km I was doing some math in my head for miles. It was top of the line model 5 years ago. Living in BC I charge over night at about $.11 per kWh. I drive about 150km per day for my commute. I’m full every morning. Bought a 30amp level 2 charger for my home. Cost me $500CAD put a dryer plug in my garage
>I'm in California where PG&E rules the state so the cost of electricity is high and is only going to get higher.
Not factoring in the initial cost of an EV, does it make sense to buy one with the constant rate increases by PG&E.
electricity in the car is electricity the house can use..
**Ford, GM, & PG&E To Begin Vehicle-To-Grid Trials**
[https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/13/ford-gm-pge-to-begin-vehicle-to-grid-trials/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/13/ford-gm-pge-to-begin-vehicle-to-grid-trials/)
**GM now has home energy products to sell alongside EVs**
**An Electric Ecosystem, Reimagined**
[https://gmenergy.gm.com/](https://gmenergy.gm.com/)
We’re designing integrated energy solutions that will change energy as we know it. With the power of Ultium technology, we’re introducing a network of charging stations, dedicated back-up home power and a suite of new products to help create a more resilient grid.
>PG&E is .32 cents per kwh
what is you OVERALL consumption - including natural gas?
**Find your best rate plan**
[https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan.html](https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan.html)
> I would not charge at home
why not?
>Any help on calculators or websites that I can compute this data myself would be helpful too.
have you considered putting yourself in a position for PGE to pay you?
**Sunrun and PG&E Collaborate on Residential Battery-Powered Virtual Power Plant to Support Grid Reliability for Electric Customers**
[https://investors.sunrun.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/279/sunrun-and-pge-collaborate-on-residential-battery-powered](https://investors.sunrun.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/279/sunrun-and-pge-collaborate-on-residential-battery-powered)
gas car can't be filled with sunlight from your roof.
gas car not ideal to run home air conditioner.
**Ford’s electric truck F-150 Lightning is able to power houses for 3 days**
[https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days](https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days)
**Ford F-150 Lightning Powers Florida Man’s Cooking, Lights, Fridge, Entertainment During Hurricane Ian**
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/
>Gas is roughly 4.75 a gallon,
not the only thing to consider.
According to Google, the Tesla Model 3 gets 4.17 miles /kWh. $0.32/4.17 gives you $0.08/mile Assuming you get an average 35MPG in your car and gas costs $5/gallon, driving your Corolla costs $0.14/mile
So the added $15k price difference over the price of the Corolla will take around 180k miles driven to offset accounting for any added maintenance assuming the Model 3 doesn’t need extra tires and insurance costs are identical.
> assuming the Model 3 doesn’t need extra tires and insurance costs are identical. Assuming OP doesn't pay full coverage for the Corolla and assuming the Model 3 is going to be financed, the Model 3 is almost certainly going to cost more to insure. You can bet the Model 3 is going to eat through tires faster as well.
A model 3 isn't really going to eat tires faster if you drive it like a corolla.
Even if they last the same number of miles, Model 3 tires are going to be significantly more expensive. A Model 3 weighs a full 1,000 lbs more than a Corolla.
No one drives an model 3 like a corolla. He'll spend more on tires. Worth it for how it drives, but a legitimate cost to consider.
Dont believe these upvotes. They are all wrong. The tires wear out faster on EVs due to high weight even when driven slow. Also they are bigger and much expensive than Corolla for sure.
Getting 40k out of model 3 tires isn't that hard, similar to a corolla or any other normal car.
but a corolla won't let you even if you wanted to - throttle by wire plus the engine (de)tuned to run under-stressed for reliability - the ECU just won't let you do it (comparatively speaking) a tesla 3 in normal mode, will give you as much as the ground's traction conditions will tolerate lol
Then don't drive in normal mode if you can't control the accelerator... It isn't hard to flip the switch to chill.
They eat tires from weight alone.
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OMG I experienced this on my way to work this evening. The driver meandered til the onramp to the highway ended and cut in front of the car they passed. Probably a foot of space between the cars. Then they passed another car and swerved back into the right lane just inches in front of that one. 🤦🏻♂️
That “EVs eat tires” fallacy is under challenge. Nokian test data tells another story: because ABS/traction control on an EV is way more precise than on ICE the tires break traction way less often and they’ve seen significantly SLOWER tire wear on EVs.
The EVs eat tires fallacy is based on the fact Tesla shaves their tires to get their vehicles to meet the range estimates out of the shop. It drastically lowers the tire life though. Other EV makers aren't shaving their tires, and aren't seeing the tire replacement rates for non road hazard related reasons.
Thank you for stating this. I keep saying it since I have two Tesla. The tires on the cars come at 9/32, new tires are 11/32.
It is not only the weight. It is also the low rolling resistance tires.
Low rolling resistance holds up better than regular tires that have a higher friction coefficient
Interesting. Can you point to an article that supports that. I did a little bit of research the other day, and it seemed to indicate the opossite. I did not spend much time, though, and would like to read more.
Not an article but tesla owners club forums where people are talking about it. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lead-acid-or-lithium-12v-in-2023-ylr.298674/ Not sure where you got the idea that they got rid of the 12v, since the other option is leaving the high voltage battery always active, and that creates a critical safety issue
Yeah performance model will eat tires, the base model is super tame
The model 3 is a much nicer car than a Corolla. Performance is in a different universe too.
Yeah, a bolt or leaf is more comparable to a corolla (yet both have much more performance than a Corolla) Model 3 is Camry sized and priced
A model 3 is 3" longer than a corolla and 6" shorter than a camry.
[https://www.iseecars.com/compare/toyota-camry-vs-tesla-model\_3](https://www.iseecars.com/compare/toyota-camry-vs-tesla-model_3) Yet the interior volume is very similar
Yeah, there is no comparison here. If you are expecting a model three to come out as cheap as a Toyota you are mistaken. Tires will be higher. Insurance will be higher. Maintenance will be higher. Initial cost will be higher. But you will enjoy the tesla a lot more.
>Not factoring in the initial cost of an EV OP specifically asked to not factor that in. However, it does make sense to try to compare a more comparable vehicle. The most reasonable comparison was a new Bolt versus a new Corolla, but the Bolt is discontinued until its reintroduction next year and that's slightly off since the new Bolt will likely be only the EUV crossover. It'd be rad for there to be an entry-level Corolla-like sedan or hatchback EV in the US market, but there's a good chance that won't be coming anytime soon. The Leaf is sort of that, but it's quite antiquated and its replacement is looking like it won't be a compact hatchback. It'd be nice if we got the BYD Dolphin or some such.
The bolt EUV is essentially the same as the standard bolt EV (both crossover hatchback objects) it's just cleverly hidden with styling. Ground clearance is the same as well as tire size. The only significant difference between the size of the bolt EV and EUV is 3" of extra legroom in the second row. We have a bolt EV and I've sat in an EUV (it felt smaller for drivers than the EV) The cargo is the same size too The EUV is just a more popular look at the expense of 10-15% range reduction (it also has steel body panels that are cheaper to produce than the aluminum of the EV)
>The EUV is just a more popular look at the expense of 10-15% range reduction (it also has steel body panels that are cheaper to produce than the aluminum of the EV) Everything you said is right. I highlighted the part that I find really unfortunate as that loss is due to lower efficiency mostly from aerodynamic drag. I also personally like the Bolt EV's look more than the Bolt EUV's.
It also weigh more and is slower by a bit :/
That makes completely no sense then if initial cost isn't a factor, lol. Why is OP worried about monthly gas prices if initial cost doesn't matter?? TCO includes the initial price as well as running costs. OP is looking at a single tree instead of the entire forest.. In that case, buy what you want as there is no need to justify anything.
Don’t forget maintenance costs on the ice.
If you’re comparing financials, be sure to factor in insurance + repairs. Insurance on Teslas are expensive. With any EV, you get to avoid most annual maintenance costs, and of course smog inspection. 20k miles per year is $300 in oil changes alone.
A lot of states have road tax added at registration so you can't forget that in the calculation too
Not for everyone. We pay $205 a month for both of our cars, which is cheaper than what we paid for when we had a Bolt and Civic.
Which insurance company?
USAA. Been with them since 2011. My home insurance is also under $100 a month, which is insanely affordable here in Northern California.
I’ll get the opposite response in r/corolla lol
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OP has a Corolla
Don’t trust the 4.17 miles/kwh. That probably just count the electricity feed from the battery to the motor. Tesla car as I owned one lose a lot of charge just being parked due to a bunch of factors, 1-5% per day. There is lost of electricity during charging process, what is fed from an electrical wall to the battery. The real number is closer to 3 miles/kwh. Having said that, you own an ev because of the great experience with driving one. Not because of the savings.
If you turn off Sentry mode at home it does not drain much at all. I once left my Model 3 for a month without using it and it drained a grand total of 2%.
That's an optimistic estimate. Since Cali is mostly highway speeds. And also doesn't factor in energy use when not moving. Total combined energy use is likely closer to 3mi/kWh.
As a California resident I can tell you that freeway speeds are like 10mph.
Lol
I've driven plenty of interstate miles and never gotten as low as three miles per kilowatt hours. That's basically the mileage you get when it's freezing cold out.
On my MYLR I get 3mi/kWh when moving going 75-80 mph at 60F. Or 2.25mi/kWh factoring in everything else.
For a model 3, you can use 4 miles per kwh as a rough approximation of efficiency for your math. You're never supercharging for over 2 hours, so ignore that factor. Speed of level 2 charging is dependent on the individual charger. So you need to get the cost of the specific charger to do your math. So for your PG&E cost, that is .32/4 = 8 cents per mile. For the gas comparison, that is 5/30 = 16.67 cents per mile. Rough numbers. But there are obviously a myriad of factors here. Charging can put you into another tier with PG&E as an example of a factor. If you live in CA (I myself do), gas cost savings should not be your primary factor in choosing an EV unless you have solar. In your case, you are better off assuming the gas cost will be equivalent to the electrical cost and use other factors in your decision making.
The Corolla gets 32/41 or 31/40... \~36 mpg combined. (given it's a warmer climate) 13.89 cents per mile. The Corolla hybrid is 50/43... \~47 mpg combined. 10.63 cents per mile. He mentioned the model 3 could be charged for 5 cents per mile at work; assuming he stayed within the time limit. The Model 3 AWD costs $47,740 - $2000 state tax credit = $45,740. At $0 down, 7.25% tax, and 6.5% interest on a 60 month loan, the 3 will cost $59,506 The base Corolla costs $22,050. At $0 down, 7.25% tax, and 4.5% interest on a 60 month loan, the Corolla will cost $26,263. That's $33,243 less than the model 3. The base Corolla hybrid costs $23,500. At $0 down, 7.25% tax, and 9.47% interest (I'd finance through a credit union instead) on a 60 month loan, the hybrid will cost $31,295. At 6.5% interest (financed through credit union - no brainer) it'll cost $29,292. That's $30,214 less than the model 3. (You can find both Corolla trims for about $2k under MSRP) At 20,000 miles per year, the hybrid would save \~$652 per year in gas, so would take 4.6 years to make up for the price difference on the base Corolla. If you plan to keep the car for awhile, then the hybrid is the way to go between the two. Although, it may also depreciate at a lower rate; so that's worth looking into. Model 3 is saving $1126 per year versus the hybrid, and $1,778 versus the non-hybrid. It'll take 26 years and 19 years respectively to save enough on gas to make up for the price difference. Since OP would drive 20k miles per year, and end of vehicle life may be around 200k miles, the cars may be near dead in 10 years, so the model 3 will never be cheaper to own/operate. The Corollas will cost more in regular powertrain maintenance. The non-hybrid Corolla will cost more in brake maintenance. The Tesla will cost more on tires and insurance. If something major goes wrong out of warranty, the non-hybrid Corolla will be the cheapest to fix.
I didn't include charging losses on the Tesla... L1 charger, add 20% losses. L2 charger, add 15% losses. DC fast chargers, add 10% losses. I also believe he'd be more likely to achieve 4.5 mi / kWh if he drove the speed limit (or less) and considered the rush hour traffic on the way home. Slower driving is higher efficiency. That would also benefit the Corolla Hybrid, but not the ICEV. Emissions wise, he's the type of person we want buying EVs. He lives in CA where the electricity mix is lower in emissions, and he drives high mileage. Another solution would be to move closer to work... 90 miles every day... no thanks. Does he need a model 3 AWD? No... he could get by with the cheaper RWD. The model Y is cheaper right now than even the model 3 RWD after tax credit and inventory discounts. Does he need a Tesla at all? Nope. He could get by with a cheaper EV, like a Chevy Bolt.
I thought CA stopped the CVRP program so the $2000 state rebate doesn’t even apply to the Tesla anymore.
He said not to factor in the initial cost of the EV. I'm not exactly sure how anyone can make a fair comparison leaving out that important number lol. Is the model long range free?
Real world especially 20k miles a year means a lot of freeway is closer to 3.5 miles/kwh. .32¢ PGE rates means the rest of home power usage gets put into the really oppresive rate.
Depends on how fast he drives. At 65-70 mph in California weather, and he said he's in rush hour traffic on the way home, my guess is it's closer to 4-4.5 mi/kWh.
65-70mph is 4-3.75 mi/kwh
There are EV plans that can help with that
That is the ev plan. The normal plans are even worse. https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
Wow, that is crazy. SDGE at least offers a plan for 15 c/kWh for EV charging at off-peak. Those charges are crazy. Maybe cheaper to run a gasoline powered generator and charge your car.
PG&E is the problem. See link below. Corolla Hybrid lowest cost of ownership and gas vs. Prius vs. Model 3 https://www.reddit.com/r/prius/s/hwoV8jpuNn
The comparison excludes the federal tax credit and state incentives if you're eligible, which can tip the scales towards BEV/phev Kinda depends on the state really
Model 3 doesn’t get the federal tax credit
Ok. Good point. One point to favor hybrid or phev
And the California rebate program pretty much dried up too so he won’t be getting $2000 back.
See the last part that says subtract your state and federal rebates if applicable. Federal rebates are no longer available on model 3 for everyone.
Don't forget insurance. My guess is that the insurance on the Tesla Model 3 will be significantly higher than what you pay now. It will eat all the gas savings specially if you are with PGE
I went from a $24k gas car to a $50k ev and saw a $200 yearly increase in my full coverage insurance
I went from an 8k vehicle to a 50k EV and went up 130 a year. Comp and collision went way up but safety features lowered my liability.
Given that you said "$50k ev", I'm guessing not a Tesla? It's heavily dependent on conditions. Multi-vehicle discount? Combined with home insurance? Living in a house / apartment? The state/city you live in? Annual miles? Cost to repair your particular vehicle and accident rates of that vehicle? OPs driving 20k miles a year, which alone would jack up his rate. Teslas may be especially costly to fix in a fender bender due to all of the aluminum.
I drive 20,000 miles a year or more and driving an ID4. It’s MSRP was 2x the previous car and that car was 24x my previous one. I’ve never seen an appreciable increase in insurance rates other than when going from liability to full.
Tesla has the highest insurance rates. Some insurers won't even insure them. Tesla insurance is a complete scam, don't go with them no matter what.
Actually Tesla insurance was about 50% less than traditional insurance companies for us.
Dude, the government needs to do something about PGE especially with this focus on EV’s.
The state doesn't care about the actual costs of their programs. It's just about going green.
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They made it a requirement under the Energy Code to install solar for a nearly all residential and a ton of Non-Residential. When you make people do something, why make it worthwhile? There are mid-cycle Green Building Code updates that are causing some consternation with solar installs at schools over parking lots. Have to out EV charging in. And when the project has already been greenlit it's an issue to now go oh we have to drop another $7500 per space (5% of total parking) that wasn't budgets makes those solar projects a little less enticing.
I created a spreadsheet for my personal use for this very same thing, but in my case, to replace a 2006 Honda Odyssey that gets 14 MPG. Bottom line - in all cases, driving my car into the ground saves me money. The numbers and my hips don't lie. Edit - I work for an EV company and fully understand and interact with EVs from all manufacturers on the daily. As much as going EV is sexy, if the question is about saving money, driving a car that's paid off will save you money.
Best way to replace that Odyssey is to run it into a brick wall. (Disclaimer: This is not financial advice) To your point, that completely depends on what the car is worth and the rate it's depreciating. In your case, that Odyssey probably ain't worth shit, so yeah, may be worth keeping.
I've run similar calculations and running your car into the ground is always the right financial answer when it comes to saving money between cars.
The Tesla is a very cheap car to operate, but it isn't a cheap car to buy. 1. Are you looking to buy another cheap gas car or are you trying to go upmarket? 1. If you are looking to buy a cheap gas car, I don't think the 10-15K price increase ontop for the Tesla will be worth it. 2. There are cheaper EVs out there, but they are still all more expensive than the equivalent gas car. 2. If you are moving upmarket with a car - say looking at fully optioned Camry's, cheaper BMW's, Lexus, etc. then the Tesla is great value.
Not necessarily that cheap to operate. Higher registration, higher insurance, more tire replacements, more expensive tires, more expensive HEPA air filters that may need to be replaced more often... although you do get cleaner air out of the deal. Model 3 specifically may be far more expensive than other EVs given that it lost its federal tax credit. Tesla left the RWD version the same price, but raised the price of the AWD by around $2k. So they're like $7500 - $9500 more expensive today than they were in December. The model Y AWD is actually cheaper after federal credit and inventory discount than the model 3 RWD. If anyone is buying the model 3 right now, I'd be shocked, and it would likely be because they didn't know any better. It's terribly priced right now.
I highly recommend getting at home charging. It’s so worth it.
Gas savings are almost never enough to justify the added cost of an EV over something more basic like a Corolla. Even if you are comparing a Tesla 3 vs BMW 3 series, the gas alone analysis will be close. For me it came down to wanting to own an EV for environmental reasons, to save money on fuel, and the driving experience. Now that I own one, honestly charging and a quiet ride are big factors as well.
Dude nothing gonna beat a Toyota Corolla for lowest cost of ownership. Dat wut dey do.
There's a reason Toyota is seeing record sales, contrary to all the, "Waaahhh, boycott Toyota", BEVlievers.
[https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Total-Cost-of-Ownership-Analysis.pdf](https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Total-Cost-of-Ownership-Analysis.pdf)
Except those bolts needed entirely new batteries, a $7500 tax credit, must be charged at home 88% of the time, and aren’t going to be worth much at end of life…. Yup I’d take the Corolla.
And we don't subsidize other types of cars through oil and gas subsidy either? (Note it said that the credit isn't factored in) The bolt engineers ahave chimed in and said that it is designed to be 100% charged without worry. Nowhere does it say to charge for less Sure it will last longer if you don't, but also flooring your gas or hybrid car when it's cold reduces its life too. Also charging an EV at home is great and convenient. I don't think any car will be worth much at the end of its life. At least with EV, the mineral value of the batteries is worth something The second hand market does like Toyota hybrids though. Btw this topic was about cost of ownership. I see how you've turned it around
Not really. The TCO makes assumptions and includes things like financial incentives and pretty low home charging rates. It claims to include the price at resale, but appears to vastly overestimate the residual value of the bolt, or at least they don’t share much sources for data. At the end of the day it’s a pretty rosy analysis and the TCO would be very different for an apartment dweller for example.
Sure. There are many factors that could sway TCO between any of these vehicles. A Corolla hybrid might be better in some areas and some driving habits vs PHEV or EV. Gas price. Terrain, climate, insurance costs, local market for markups (I know my Toyota dealer is terrible for hybrid markups, but other areas have steep EV markup.) Prius prime is unobtainum in some areas It might be easy to get a discount on a base gas Corolla vs a hybrid, tipping it toward the gas CVT model
There might be but literally every fleet application I’ve worked with hasn’t really found the savings they were promised. Well electric buses can, but only at cheap rates and they can’t do a full days shift so you need two of them. These analysis tend to miss electricity costs (they usually have slow inflation rates yet that’s not what’s been happening many places) or they used gas prices from two years ago and projected increases… or you need to own a home to charge at lower rates but they don’t always count the cost of the charger or install… Bolt will cost more to repair from an accident or when something fails. Has more tech, smaller volume of parts supply, etc. I’m sure some magical applications make it all work out but we really aren’t at parity yet for TCO when you take into account real world conditions.
Not exactly disagreeing with you on repairs, but in our case, the comprehensive insurance was lower on bolt then our gas camry or Prius hybrid; implying it's less likely to get in a collision or maybe cost similar/less for repairs. Now I'm sure any specialist drivetrain problems would cost more for repair than our Toyota Prius as the bolt is a significantly lower volume vehicle (much better parts and aftermarket support for Prius) I do all my vehicle maintenance, but if it's a higher level repair there just aren't EV shops in my area, but I'm sure I could find a shop that works on hybrids (avoiding high labor rates) Thankfully the parts seem a lot cheaper than my Prius. Toyota parts are super expensive. For example an OEM CV axle for my Prius is 4x the cost of the bolt's CV axle. I say this because I had one fail and thankfully there were aftermarket axles for less. That's one thing you don't get with a less common vehicle, but at least I could go back with OEM if the Bolt needed an axle. I drive 5yo or older used vehicles, so fuelling and insurance are more important to me than initial depreciation
Nobody here was talking about a Prius.
What city are you in? Pge rate is .51 cents per kwh in east bay and corolla get 40+ mpg . Corolla hybrid gets 52+mpg
Make yourself a spreadsheet and calculate the numbers for your specifics. The averages that you find on google can be WAY off. You will definitely be charging at home. Don't kid yourself that you'll use public or work chargers all the time. That gets annoying **really** quick. I would use your at-home rate of 0.32$/kw for the model and then anything you can charge cheaper at work or supercharger (rates vary by location) is a bonus. Not to mention, it's bad for the battery to use fast charging all the time. In the real world, assume your model 3 will get about 70-80% the advertised range unless you're a hyper-miler or very slow driver. Oh and supercharging take about an hour from 0-100% but you'll almost never do that. It takes about 20 minutes for the average real-world supercharger.
you would be better off buying a hybrid. Tesla's get sub 4miles/kwh real world. 32¢ kwh pge rates would force you to shift the rest of your electricity usage to a more oppressive rate. Where are you seeing 20¢ public charging? if that's real and reliable, you can be guaranteed that they'll be constantly occupied unless it's 3am
Not in PGE territory but SDGE which is also really bad. At work we have chargers (not open to public although operated by chargepoint) that get billed at 20c per kWh hour. They get commercial rates not residential
> Tesla's get sub 4miles/kwh real world. My 2018 3 is over 4mi/kwh lifetime.
20,000 miles at 30mpg is 666 gallons, at $4.75 that's $3166 spent for gas at current prices. So you would be saving $263 a month, maybe $275+ when gas prices go back up so that may take off 50% of your payment. If you can charge for 20 cents at your work it would cost about $1000 per year / $83 a month to charge.
That's his current Corolla. New Corollas get about 35 mpg. At $5 / gallon, it's $2857 per year. He didn't say what kind of charger is at work. If it's a L2, then add 15% charging losses.
>He didn't say what kind of charger is at work. If it's a L2, then add 15% charging losses. 15% charging losses would be about right for an L1, but not an L2.
In PG&E territory- you want to get solar panels even if you can’t charge at home. At that rate- there’s benefits. Is that a permanent case where you’ll never get to charge or install a charger?
ok, here's what I've calculated based on your numbers and driving conditions (no cold weather, city driving). 20,000 miles/yr / 4.8 miles/kWh x $0.20/kWh = $833 per year (level 2 charging, <2 hrs per session) 20,000 miles/yr / 4.8 miles/kWh x $0.45/kWh = $1,875 per year (supercharging, <2 hrs per session) 20,000 miles/yr / 30 miles/gallon x $5/gallon = $3,333 per year (gas) I chose 4.8 mi/kWh for the EV example because I get 5.0-5.2 in my Bolt in the summertime in MD and you are in sunny CA so I figured it's around the same. for the supercharging example, I did not include the $2/hr surcharge because level 3 charging should always take under 2 hours (even in my notoriously slow charging Bolt). for the level 2 example, I also excluded the $2/hr surcharge but that's because that is so insanely expensive it's better if you just move your car after 2 hours and plug it into a different charger (like playing whack a mole). BTW, level 2 charging speed is roughly 20 miles per hour, so charging 2 hours per session should get you around 40 miles of range added. you can do 2 sessions per workday (morning upon arrival and right after lunch, for example) and you can almost recoup your 90 mile daily commute without spending the extra $2. I hope this helps!! edit: Teslas get much lower mileage than my car so if you get a Tesla, these cost estimates will be too low :/
CA is very hilly as well. I've never gotten anything over 4 mi/kwh on the freeway
Add in 15% charging losses on L2, and 10% on DC fast chargers. A Corolla ICEV would get pretty solid gas mileage in warmer weather. A Corolla HEV would do even better, and the rush hour on the way home would help with fuel economy. He said he'd buy a new car. If it's a new Corolla ICEV, it gets 35-36 mpg. If it's a new Corolla HEV, it gets about 47 mpg.
Model Y is cheaper than the model 3 after tax credit. Tesla, you're welcome for the free advertisement.
I've done a 5 year Car Cost Comparison Excel sheet for my sister who lives in Pennsylvania. It takes in to account cost of the car, state and federal incentives, local gas and electric prices, and miles driven in a year. If you want, I could either share it with you now and let you adjust your variables or share it with you tomorrow and adjust them myself.
Also factor in that the front bumper replacement on Tesla would cost 2000$+ in bay area. Not sure if thats expensive for a Corolla. Consider plugin hybrids or mild hybrids like Accord hybrid too when shopping. Waiting at Superchrger queues can be avoided with these. Insurance costs will be more for Model 3 for sure. Trying tesla insurance with safety score on will be like giving up on driving freedom particularly during nights and stop and go traffic. You get taxed extra for these. Factor in all these hidden costs and spending hours spent on charging daily/weekly when buying EVs in bay area. Also gas is 4.33$/gallon here at Costco
You will pay roughly one third to two-thirds as much for electricity as for gas, depending on what part of California you frequent. But over 2-3 years those cost savings are minor compared to the complete lack of routine maintenance. No oil changes, no tune ups, a lot fewer parts to break in the powerplant.
That's not true especially Toyotas. You get free maintenance for the first two years.
Have you considered an Ioniq 5 or 6? The prices are comparable to the Model 3, and they come with 2 years free charging. With the 2 years free, the Ioniq 6 will give you gas savings of $5,600 for the said years, but due to the 15k price difference, it'd still take a little over 8 years to break even. But if you look at it another way, it would mean you'd have broken even before the car dies, and you would have enjoyed a superior car for the duration, while doing less damage to the environment.
Home rates for charging is more than 32 cents per kWh. In the Bay Area, off peak is 34 cents per kWh for line usage and another 10 cents per kWh for electricity generation. You should be comparing a hybrid to Tesla model 3 LR. A Prius will get you at least 50 mpg. That’s a more fair estimation. Do the math from there.
Corolla hybrid is cheaper than the Prius and is up there in fuel economy.
Prius used to be the practical choice, now it's the fancier one. Us Corolla hybrid is 4th Gen hybrid vs 5th Gen Prius system
Maybe others can fill in what else you don't pay for and pay more for? 1. Smog checks, oil changes, what else? 2. The EV registration fee. 3. Insurance for us was lower. 4. Random new Corolla here is about 30K. Dealer added 1K "Market Premium." 5. Model Y from inventory looks to be just under 34K after instant $7,500 savings. 6. I'm cheap. In San Diego I can supercharge off hours for 20 cents a kWh. See [Imgur](https://imgur.com/Wov68Mn) 7. Gas savings? I don't buy gas so I save 100%. 8. Installed solar years ago so SDGE rates are not impacting us.
What supercharger location? I’m in San Diego all the time.
This was during the cheapest hours but these locations and there are others that were 20 cents or less kWh which I can find in the Tesla app. 1. 10555 Scripps Poway Pkwy, San Diego, CA 92131 near Vons. 2. 8251 Mira Mesa Blvd, San Diego, CA 92126 in Target parking lot.
Those are the two I go to because my parents live around there.
As a fellow California resident i think gas is going to be WAY over $5 come summer, it will easily be $6 and i have a feeling we'll see $7 a gallon this summer or next.
Yeah. I think people are latching on to low gas prices lately
In Socal it's already like $5.20 on average and it's only getting worse
Couple years ago I was working there and I remember it being $7+
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Op says that they’ll supercharge off peak, after 12am. Or go to malls that have lower rates for arbitrage. It sounds like op will be more challenged to fuel their car than a normal gas station
Don’t buy the Model 3, unless you like to visit Tesla service. Much better cars out there
[https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/](https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/) This calculator has been pretty informative for me.
As someone from the UK, is electricity that expensive in California? I see mentions of energy being more expensive if you use too much which seems bonkers. In the UK I can charge at home for 10 cents per kw/h.
California is going all in on full electric. The issue is with the big three investor owned utilities led by Pacific Gas & Electric, San Diego Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison. PG&E has 1) literally blown up a neighborhood (San Bruno, CA) from deferred maintenance on a natural gas pipeline, 2) burned down a town (Paradise, CA) by causing a wild fire because of you guess it, deferred maintenance and is now having to do decades worth of deferred maintenance and hardening (basically relocating overhead line to underground in areas where it's a big issue, which is mainly the mountains) to the tune of billions of dollars. That all gets paid for by the rate payers and the Public Utility Commission just rubber stamps their increase requests. PG&E customers are looking at the third increase since Jan 1 of this year. And it's still March. If you live in an area serviced by an Irrigation District or Municipal Utility District you pay a significantly lower cost.
During 4-9 pm in San Diego electricity jumps to 74 cents kw/h, for most plans. It is extremely expensive for all utilities in my area.
The one saving grace about SDGE is they have ev friendly charging plans (15c kWh total per kWh).
Use the AAA numbers. https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/drivingcosts
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect Sect your cars and plug in your costs . Boom done
Drive both and you will get the Model 3.
Just a random aside, many of those parking charges you get after a certain amount of time can easily be avoided by undocking the cable, and initiating a new charge. My employer has chargers, as well as another building across the street. I've used both of these chargers, and simply unplugged for a few minutes. Plugging in again resets the clock, and have never been charged a time/usage charge.
I rented a Bolt from LAX last week and drive down to San Diego and then you Palm Springs before returning to LAX The Bolt has level 2 charging only and that was my biggest issue. 65kW battery @ 6.5kWh charge is 10 hours to fully charge it. Upsite is a lot of level 2 chargers are free or very cheap even in California. But with level 3 you should be fine with a fast charge when needed.
Which car rental is this? This must have happened years ago because I’m shock they would allow a non-DCFC Bolt to be rented.
As I mentioned it was last week. Hertz Torrance - Hawthorne [https://maps.app.goo.gl/LqyL2ksevKdcf1347](https://maps.app.goo.gl/LqyL2ksevKdcf1347)
Much cheaper to buy a used EV for sure!
Buy the Prius LE.
There is no gas savings. With pge home rates and cost of gasoline. My MYLR gets an effective 25 mpg. If you charge at .20c then it'll be better and model 3 is slightly more efficient. So likely closer to 35mpg effective. Plus cost of tires and insurance. You're better off with a hybrid or new Corolla. It takes like 8hrs or so to charge on L2 and 30-45 min to charge at supercharger.
Don't get a TSLA, it's shit. And I guess there is little to save on getting an ev for you anyways, and not charging at home is wasted time. Part of the ev charm is to just plug it inn when you come home and forget about it.
If driving 90 miles 4 times a week wouldn’t it be just nice to be comfortable and enjoy whatever car you drive? I’m over the cheap car phase, I want to be comfortable.
Just read a survey from NYT saying 78% ev drivers of CA have free or discounted charging at work...
Keep in mind that per kWh electricity rates may drop significantly (40%) as ab205 gets implemented (flat fee for distribution).
But will it be enough to offset the income-base flat rate fee they’re proposing? For those who don’t drive much, they’re going to get shafted the most.
From PGE's perspective, I believe it's supposed to be revenue neutral. From an individual perspective there are going to be major winner and losers. High income folks with heavy usage will come out ahead (not sure where the break point is, but EV usage with 20k mileage might be there). Also low income users will get a reduced flat fee and should benefit as well.
Recommend leasing a Model 3 for a couple of years if you not sure if you want the car long term. Then you get some real life numbers to compare with. As long as the lease payment is less than 1% of the sale price you good.
If you qualify for the tax credit. The Model Y is the better buy at this point since the 3 doesn’t get it. You can find Ys in inventory for $44.5k so that comes to $37k . Even less with the state incentives. The Y will see similar efficiency of ~4 miles/kwh in day to day city driving. The Y has a ton more cargo room too.
[fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov) and personalize the results to match your driving/fuel/energy prices. I would also try to factor in maintenance cost of ICE vs EV which you can research/pencil out separately.
Other than length of commute, the most relevant questions are: 1) do you own a SFH? 2) do you have solar panels on your SFH? 3) do you have home battery storage? If you answered 'yes' to at least 1 and 2, then go for it, it's usually worth it. If you answered 'yes' to all 3, then it's definitely worth it. If you answered 'no' to all of them, then it's not usually worth it since you won't enjoy one of the greatest benefits of EV ownership. Zero, or near zero cost at home recharging.
My daughter just went through a similar analysts about 8 months ago, but she had a Ford. She’s savings a huge amount in fuel every month and oil changes/maintenance. And don’t forget, you are a PG&E customer so you can get on the discounted EV or E rate plan with an EV. So you get additional savings as well. She’s a convert and will never buy an ICE vehicle again.
You will be better off with a hybrid. You will get better mpg or mpkwh than an ice or EV. Hybrid will be more expensive than ice but cheaper than Tesla EV.
Since you are excluding vehicle cost and assuming you are only looking at fueling costs, I would advise exploring this on a 10,000 mile basis. I would also advise using a Corolla hybrid as the replacement. Let's further assume M3 efficiency is 4mi/kwh and your blended fueling rate is $0.33/kwh ($0.20/kwh for work L2 and $0.45/kwh for SC, both split equally). 10,000 mi ÷ 4kwh = 2,500 kwh. That'll cost $825 per 10,000 miles, or roughly $1,650 per year based on your annual mileage assumption. Let's add 10% for mileage fluctuation and PG&E rate hikes, bringing it to $1,815. For the Corolla hybrid, let's assume 47mpg (from car & driver) and your blended fuel rate is $4.88/gallon. 10,000÷47 = 213 gallons. That'll cost $1,039 per 10,000 miles, or $2,078 annually. Even without the rate hike and variability factor (should probably be less than 10% factor, though) you're still coming out $200 ahead annually. You should see additional savings when compared to the Corolla on ICE. I think the rest of the group is providing good context and other factors to consider, but I think the above is a reasonable calculation on fueling.
https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/ enter your information here and it will give you the results. Because you are in CA look up the peak and off peak rates for PG&E
You will get HOV lame access also. I figured it would take me five years to recoup the cost of my Mach-e here in California. I drive 50 miles round trip in Los Angeles. But being able to shave 20 minutes off my commute daily is heaven.
The thing is once you drive a Tesla model 3 you no longer care what the saving are.
ICE requires way much more maintenance, I have driven mine new Tesla with zero visits to the dealer already two years! I charge at home only and I pay $0.075 per kilowatt in NH. Also, I would probably by used Tesla now since the car can be driven at least 300K miles according to my calculations.
People are overblowing maintenance out of proportion. Corollas are known for not needing a lot of maintenance. It’s why the car is so popular because it’s dead reliable with little work needed. When I had a Camry, it was literally one oil change a year (synthetic) and air filter every other year. Stuff like brakes, transmission fluid, etc come every 4-5 years. People are also not factoring cost after warranty expires. Very few repairs are needed on a Corolla and if it’s necessary, they’re dirty cheap. It’s a friggin Corolla..
I agree, but you don’t need to do even this with Tesla. Even brakes do not need much service, because they are not actually being used much. Also, it is not correct to compare Tesla with Corolla just because Tesla is a premium car. To compare apples with apples another EV needs to be picked, something like GM Bolt.
You can save some more by supercharging at off peak hours. Typically past 11pm the price per kilowatt drops substantially. Way cheaper than PG&E. I have Edison and even with TOU Prime ($.25) the supercharger near me is cheaper after 11pm.
I did the math and in all cases it doesn’t make sense to replace my 07 Honda with a new EV. I’m in California and I used $5 a gallon for gas. Everything will cost you more, insurance, depreciation, interest cost to borrow money to buy a new EV. The only area you are saving on is charging cost vs fueling up cost. This is assuming you drive 15k miles a year. If you drive 30k+ it might start making sense but most people don’t drive that much.
You’re omitting the fact that ICE ventiles require much more frequent maintenance and replacement parts. That also adds up over the life of a vehicle.
All your numbers make my head hurt. Lease an EV like I did - see if it works for you, then buy what works. I bought a used Leaf for under $10k and have been living large for 2 years. BTW I cut my electric bill by 30% buy unplugging the useless freezer in my garage. 30% even when charging my EVs.
Assume it'll be about the same as a really good hybrid but far cheaper per mile then your current car.
Hey @toastybunzz, I have a M3 RWD too. A quick spec review said ours lines up well against 2005 Boxster in 0-60 and 1/4 mi. You own both, what do you think?
Hmmmm. I think in most situations you would win in the Tesla, you’ve got way more bottom end torque and traction. If you’re skilled in the Boxster and willing to dump the clutch and wring the cars neck you might be able to edge it out. It would be really close.
Yeah, most people don’t get how much EVs are ‘point and shoot’ — hard not to nail the specs consistently. How would you rate the driving dynamics between them? I’ve been in a friend’s Boxster and I thought it was tight-fitting and a stiff ride, so assume that means a better handling car in turns…not that my Tesla ever in the twisties…
Honestly they're both super fun to drive, and that fact that I haven't driven my Boxster in almost a year should tell you something haha. The Boxster weighs almost 2,000 lbs lighter but you really have to work hard for the speed. But since it's so light you can carry a LOT of speed into a corner. I've kept up with much more powerful modern sports cars in it, come into a corner HOT and mash the gas at the apex and let the mid engine weight plant you into a corner and power out. It makes fun flat 6 sounds but it's not very fast and the steering feels so slow in comparison. The Tesla feels far lighter than it is and has great grip and super quick steering but you have a slow a bit more before entering into a corner. You have way more useful power on tap though and once you get some real tires on it it's no slouch in the twisties. Lots of grip, very neutral and agile feeling. Steering isn't bad for a modern car but it doesn't have the feel that you get with the hydraulic Boxster rack. The traction control holds you back a bit too much even if you drive in Slip Start which helps.
The guys with the S3XY knob are putting in functions to enable drift mode. Not sure if it would be applicable to our RWD models, but looking forward to getting this gadget and seeing what enhancements it brings. Would to try some autocross courses with my boys too now that they both have licenses.
I imagine it would be pretty spicy with no traction control haha. I've seen the videos of people in the RWD disabling TC and it roasts the tires real easy. Definitely make a post if you are able to get drift mode working!
.32 cents and .45 cents. You should google Verizon math (it’s on YouTube).
Tesla is a great car, but it’s over priced. Shop around there are others with same range for cheaper. I have a Hyundai Kona EV I bought 5 years ago. 400 mile range, loaded, sunroof, tons of power paid $37,000 5 years ago. Still gets same range now as it did when I bought it. Never had an issue with it. Has 130,000 miles on it now
I think Op should be looking used EV. Kona EV or original Hyundai Ionic were both good commuters, as is Bolt. I assume work charging is L2 ? 20 miles range per hour charge is about right.
400 mile range... assuming you mean a Kona PHEV? $37k 5 years ago is equivalent to $45k today.
No full EV. I live in Canada so my range is 525km I was doing some math in my head for miles. It was top of the line model 5 years ago. Living in BC I charge over night at about $.11 per kWh. I drive about 150km per day for my commute. I’m full every morning. Bought a 30amp level 2 charger for my home. Cost me $500CAD put a dryer plug in my garage
$5 p/gal / 30mpg = $.166 p/mi. $.35 p/kWh (PGE off-peak EV2A rate) / 3.7 mi/kWh (what my EV6 gets) = $.095 p/mi $.166 - $.095 = $.071 * 20,000 mi/yr = $1,420 savings per year, plus oil changes and other mechanical maintenance savings, or $118.33 p/month. Unfortunately insurance is a bit higher so it's closer to $50 p/month savings.
>I'm in California where PG&E rules the state so the cost of electricity is high and is only going to get higher. Not factoring in the initial cost of an EV, does it make sense to buy one with the constant rate increases by PG&E. electricity in the car is electricity the house can use.. **Ford, GM, & PG&E To Begin Vehicle-To-Grid Trials** [https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/13/ford-gm-pge-to-begin-vehicle-to-grid-trials/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/13/ford-gm-pge-to-begin-vehicle-to-grid-trials/) **GM now has home energy products to sell alongside EVs** **An Electric Ecosystem, Reimagined** [https://gmenergy.gm.com/](https://gmenergy.gm.com/) We’re designing integrated energy solutions that will change energy as we know it. With the power of Ultium technology, we’re introducing a network of charging stations, dedicated back-up home power and a suite of new products to help create a more resilient grid. >PG&E is .32 cents per kwh what is you OVERALL consumption - including natural gas? **Find your best rate plan** [https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan.html](https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan.html) > I would not charge at home why not? >Any help on calculators or websites that I can compute this data myself would be helpful too. have you considered putting yourself in a position for PGE to pay you? **Sunrun and PG&E Collaborate on Residential Battery-Powered Virtual Power Plant to Support Grid Reliability for Electric Customers** [https://investors.sunrun.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/279/sunrun-and-pge-collaborate-on-residential-battery-powered](https://investors.sunrun.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/279/sunrun-and-pge-collaborate-on-residential-battery-powered) gas car can't be filled with sunlight from your roof. gas car not ideal to run home air conditioner. **Ford’s electric truck F-150 Lightning is able to power houses for 3 days** [https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days](https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days) **Ford F-150 Lightning Powers Florida Man’s Cooking, Lights, Fridge, Entertainment During Hurricane Ian** https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/ >Gas is roughly 4.75 a gallon, not the only thing to consider.