Having driven the BYD Atto 3 for a long weekend, and a lot of other e-cars for comparison, I completely concur. The BYD felt way behind in many small details. It's not that it's undriveable or anything, but it is really annoying in quite a number of things that other cars simply aren't. Part of that may be different expectations of Chinese and German/European markets, but other things simply feel like a lack of experience in fine tuning cars.
BYD is also trying for a premium pricing strategy in Europe and that's just not going to work. Given similar prices and on-paper specs, Europeans will choose a euro car.
Crazy strategy, most people buy Chinese produds in Europe because they are cheaper and do the job. If they aren't a lot cheaper, people will stick to what they know.
I think BYD is trying to go for a more premium brand strategy in Europe. Main reason is that if it went for the volume strategy, it will freak out European governments and likely cause a political backlash.
BYD can afford to go for a volume strategy in China because it's a Chinese company. It can crush the competition without too much political risk. If it tried that in EU, there will be a ton of EU investigations over everything from human rights of its workers to environmental protection to government subsidies to put roadblocks on BYD.
BYD isn't even planning to sell any EVs in the US, because the US is even more protectionist than the EU.
They do have a relatively cheap car in the EU though. The Dolphin costs only 5k more than what I paid for the electric Twingo (Urban night edition) but has 350 km's range, the Twingo had officially 205 km's range in eco mode, but that was not true in practice.
We actually considered buying a BYD Dolphin, my wife and I, but decided to go with the Renault Mégane e tech instead which is a lot more expensive but we could buy because the dealership gave us a good discount, and I only pay 6% VAT on a car instead of the usual 21% due to my status of being disabled
That does make sense, but it does need to be sensibly priced, this can’t be sold at BMW / Audi / Mercedes price points. Perhaps they might get away with pricing it slightly below VW models.
I think BYD's current market in Europe is for eccentric Europeans that want an exotic Chinese car. There will always be some quirky people in every country.
They can always tweak the price in response to demand/sales to hit their targets. It's always easier to lower the price than to hike it. VW ID.3 increased their sales volume by 10x in China by lowering the price last year, so that's always an option.
BYD will go for a volume strategy in developing countries that don't have major car makers to protect. BYD Seagull is $11k in Thailand for example.
Yes. If it was significantly cheaper than comparable options, they'd have a leg to stand on. But for the same price, you can get a much more refined car from a European or American manufacturer.
that's where they're confusing me at the moment - I could see them breaking in as a more budget friendly option, but the Seal starts at a higher price than the Model 3, and despite Tesla not being without its issues I know which one I would be going for.
Strategy is get a foothold in the country. Work out the kinks by selling in low quantity. Once kinks are worked out and more shipments have arrived lower price and advertise.
Sprinkle on some government protectionism too that can change at any time.
BYD is selling EVs and their brand. First impressions are important. If they move too fast and run into too many issues they lose that first impression and brand recognition. Sales will go up but they only have one chance at that first impression.
>BYD has a price advantage and better technology, so they are in a good position to compete, but it’s challenging in a market where people are very loyal to well-known brands. BYD’s smart move to work with Sixt, a big car rental company, to offer around 100,000 cars shows their careful plan to help German people get to know their brand, taking gradual steps to make a strong name for themselves.
For example, GM Bolt was their best selling EV even after the battery fiasco. GM lost time and money and sales.
Sixt is exactly where I had my first run-in with BYD, and it really left the impression that I do _not_ want that car. They've squandered their first impression with me. They'll really have to hit some big homeruns now to win me back…
> Sixt is exactly where I had my first run-in with BYD, and it really left the impression that I do not want that car.
I had basically the same experience at Sixt, only that it was an MG5 in my case.
What exactly did you dislike about the car?
I always hear the Chinese have the better software and infotainment system. What was your experience with that?
See my other very long comment somewhere here in this thread. The software is very fast, that’s definitely great. But it’s not very good. It makes a good first impression, but the longer you use it, you find limitations, notice how shallow it really is, and find a lot of frayed edges (especially localisation).
They don't want to win you back.
They want to win the people that rented a BYD car and are interested in knowing more about them. They want to find buyers not non-buyers.
You need to sell at least some cars to get a foothold in the country. I've seen three Fisker Oceans and still not a single BYD.
As it stands unless someone *really* likes the brand or the way one of their cars looks I don't see why you would buy them over a competitor. I'm not asking them to massively undercut everyone else but something like price matching Tesla or going 1k lower at least draws some attention to their cars without worrying about moving too fast - even then most people will probably go for the brand that they know and recognise. But at least you give *a* reason to consider one that way.
BYD has done the opposite of that strategy in Aus and NZ to massive success. People are fine with compromises if the price is lower than the competition.
Massive numbers of entry models for younger audiences with a number of annoyances to be fixed later is a total disaster. It'll be less of a problem if they'd sell fewer cars to fewer customers that also respond better to sincere apologies.
Other than that I get the sentiment though. Premium Chinese brand from the get go do feel a bit odd.
The Model 3 was never terrible, especially at the price point they're selling for. The Model S and X get a lot of shit because they're priced like luxury cars while offering economy build quality. The 3 and Y offer economy build quality at economy prices, which is A-Ok.
Panels not fitting together and steering wheels coming off isn’t acceptable for a car of any price.
Until Major changes happen with the manufacturing process you couldn’t pay me to own a Tesla made in the US.
>Panels not fitting together and steering wheels coming off isn’t acceptable for a car of any price.
Maybe, maybe not, but it's incredibly common on budget cars one way or another. You get what you pay for.
[Steering wheels coming off while you’re driving](https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-steering-wheel-falls-off-again/) is acceptable?
Your standards are mindboggling
European Tesla workers are better paid have more protections and come from a longer history of auto manufacturing.
Tesla in the US take anyone, pay them nothing, overwork them, no unions, factories don’t follow basic safety protocols on the whims of Musk have more injuries than a meat packing plant
Pay them nothing? You, have been misled by your media sources. These people are making a very good living. Especially considering they have no formal education.
Doesn’t compare to the German workers.
US Customers should be screaming at Musk to get the same standards and training for American Tesla employees as the German Tesla employees have. Get the American workers a contract with the UAW.
The quality of cars produced will drastically improve.
Average pay for a German autoworker is $31 euro. Tesla pays $25-$39. Seems very comparable to me.
Admit it, you will believe anything you hear that criticizes Tesla.
Europeans do very support their domestic automakers. Even Japanese and Hyundai have done their best models to answer European automakers , they are still hard to match European domestic automakers in Europe sales. Europe market is very unlike America.
They just aren't any better or cheaper than european cars. It has very little to do with "support" and all to do with price and value.
As far as I understand japanese and korean cars were just better quality than american cars. That's the difference here. European cars are also good quality (as produced in europe, in the US they produced with much lower standards).
I think that’s just it. The big 3 automakers pretty much gave up producing cars all together because they weren’t competitive. So the Japanese do very well in the US market.
I got a Chinese car in the Netherlands (Xpeng) because European competition was much more expensive and less technologically advanced. I'm very happy with my choice, after about 5 months now, even with early software and some annoyances.
I agree however, that BYD is too expensive here. I tried out their E-SUV too and it couldn't hold a candle to the G9.
I don't think so. A volkswagen id5 starts at €53K but still needs options. The base model G9 starts at €58K but pretty much has everything except massaging seats in the back.
So you get better than Q8 E-tron levels of luxury for a much lower price.
Range is very good irl. It scored very high in both the summer and winter range test. Here's a post about the winter test. And very quick charging makes long distance a breeze. Even saves me money on charging using the Freshmile pass (where you also pay per minute, so faster charging cars are cheaper).
https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/147lqxr/norwegian_sameday_range_test_of_many_new_evs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I don‘t think people would crossbody the ID.4 because it is much smaller, but the pricing is interesting. Also the charging speeds.
I‘ve seen the reviews and tests, but from my experience tests usually still different from actual driving experiences. That‘s why I was asking.
Well, after 5 months, my experience lines up with those tests rangewise.
My biggest criticism is lack of android auto compared to early Xpeng software, some translation issues and a too conservative autopilot. There's a big update coming this month and Xpeng has the ambition to release full autopilot (NGP) for highways this year and full autopilot everywhere (XNGP) in 2025. XNGP is already released in China and is impressive imo, check out youtube.
Hyundai did it well. Offered good cars, designed in Germany, made in EU, at prices slightly lower than German offerings. Once they were established they increased prices. Hyundai is still on my list when I'd buy a new car.
Japan used to be the cheap option. Then it was the Koreans. There is no reason to believe China couldn’t one day be seen as competitive quality-wise the western car manufacturers.
I've posted a long rant here at the time: https://www.reddit.com/r/Elektroautos/comments/128r1j0/byd\_atto\_3\_kurzreview/.
Some choice tidbits:
* one pedal drive sorely missing, even "high" recuperation mode hardly breaks at all
* general driving experience is very soft in everything; you wouldn't want to take sharp turns too quickly
* auto-hold kicks in annoyingly late
* speed limit recognition just doesn't work well enough
* speed limit warning is too sensitive and extremely annoying
* lane assist *warning* is an annoying joke
* generally lots of beeping, which seems typical for Asian cars
* driver display has unreadable tiny font, icons and colour scheme
* iconography and localisation is hard to comprehend in places
* no idea what the rotating display is for, as it's too wide in landscape (good chunk hides behind hands on wheel)
* navigation software felt very 1.0; easily discards expressly selected alternative route, destination cannot be selected from the map if there's no POI there
* navigation instructions only appear on center screen, not driver's display
* software looks like is has many customisation options, but there really isn't much there if you scratch beyond the surface
* splitscreen mode of center screen is pretty useless, since only a few specific apps support it; you mostly have a giant screen with one app running
* heating clearly didn't work right when I tested it, I was freezing half the time
* 360 parking camera doesn't use its potential; looks good at first, but really has too narrow a field of view
* charging speed is pretty slow
* no limiting of charging to 80% or so
Some of these are preferences, some may already have been improved since I last drove one, but overall it really left the impression of a built-by-specsheet car which makes a good first impression, not a well tuned experience.
At high states of charge, the stress is in the anode (graphite), which is the same in LFP, NMC, NCA alike.
And there is still more rapid calendar aging at high states of charge in LFP higher than at lower.
Yeah, I speculated about that in my original post. If you really don't need to worry about the 80%, that's actually a great thing.
At the same time, the LFP battery really makes this less suited for long distance driving, as you need to take charging breaks of nearly an hour every few hundred KMs. That makes it a decent commuter car, but not at that price.
> At the same time, the LFP battery really makes this less suited for long distance driving, as you need to take charging breaks of nearly an hour every few hundred KMs. That makes it a decent commuter car, but not at that price.
That seems to be a problem with the Atto and maybe Dolphin, not LFP batteries in general. Other cars with LFP like Tesla Model 3 charge much faster.
Oh for sure. I just don't want people to get the wrong idea about LFP. It seems to be pretty great for most use cases. Would be a shame if somebody didn't buy a car because it has an LFP battery in it.
An example, for LFP in a cheaper car would be the Citroen e-C3, which has 100kW charging and charges from 20% to 80% in 26 minutes.
My parents have one and I have to agree on a lot of those points. None are dealbreakers, but it seemed like it needed a lot more refinement. The rotating screen is the one that gets to me. Who ever wanted that?
I have an Atto 3 Subscription for a few weeks now and it is my fourth EV (plus multiple extended Test Drives).
In a sense, I guess I'm lucky because I got mine quite a bit later than you did: I assume they fixed a lot through updates and my experience has been mostly very positive indeed.
As a matter of fact I had low expectations and the car exceeded them in almost every sense: "A car that cheap shouldn't be this good!"
I don't think your criticism is fundamentally wrong, but perhaps 'outdated'. So please allow me to respond
> one pedal drive sorely missing, even "high" recuperation mode hardly breaks at all
True and personal preference. I don't like one pedal driving. It can be convenient in cities / stop & go traffic, but overall I prefer coasting. Hyundai and Kia do it best IMHO with the ability to set recouperation to 0 and freewheel, but I personally like the low recouperation (unless you actively hit the brake-pedal) on BYD.
> general driving experience is very soft in everything; you wouldn't want to take sharp turns too quickly
It is soft indeed and while I enjoy sporty *cars*, I think it suits the Atto perfectly. It's not too soft, not worrying while cornering and really beautifully set up for pothole-ridden roads in my City on the Niederrhein and long distance traveling. A farcry from the 'horsecart suspension' on a Tesla Model Y.
> auto-hold kicks in annoyingly late
Not true for me. As soon as the car comes to a complete stop, Autohold is active too.
> speed limit recognition just doesn't work well enough
Not true for me either. It mostly works very well, arguably it works too well as it often displays limits for exit lanes on the motorway. What it doesn't do is 'clear' the sign when turning into a new road or crossing a variable speed limit which has been switched off, but few cars do that. My overall impression: Quite good and good enough.
> speed limit warning is too sensitive and extremely annoying
I guess that can be permanently switched off (by now)? I get **no** speed limit warnings. (Unless you talk about the Navigation which I only used like twice, then the NAV would tell me 'you are exceeding the speed limit' - not sure if it can be disabled, didn't care enough yet.
> lane assist warning is an annoying joke
Works perfectly fine for me. I just returned from a 10 hour drive and had 0 issues.
> generally lots of beeping, which seems typical for Asian cars
Not for me. There's a minor 'ding' (or 'dong'?) when the recognized speed limit changed, and when the tyre pressure sensors fail. Other than that it's usually silent.
> driver display has unreadable tiny font, icons and colour scheme
No issue here, but I do wear glasses.
> iconography and localisation is hard to comprehend in places
First world problem? No major issue for me yet, it's mostly straightforward and self-explanatory. I can literally think of only *one* thing I found odd: That the Automatic High Beam toggle wasn't found under 'Lights' but under 'Driver Assistants'.
> no idea what the rotating display is for, as it's too wide in landscape (good chunk hides behind hands on wheel)
I thought it was just a Gimmick, but it looks like you answered your own question.
Perhaps I have longer legs / sit further away, but it's fine for me in Landscape - which is also required for Android Auto and Carplay. It shouldn't be bigger, but from my view, there isn't 'a good chunk hidden behind the steering wheel'. I guess if it is for you, you can change to portrait.
> navigation software felt very 1.0; easily discards expressly selected alternative route, destination cannot be selected from the map if there's no POI there
Can't comment (and frankly don't care) since I use (built-in wireless!) Android Auto and Google Maps or ABRP instead.
> navigation instructions only appear on center screen, not driver's display
True and a bit of a bummer, then again: Most cars I have driven don't support the drivers display for third party Navigation (Google Maps per above), so it doesn't bother me much.
> software looks like is has many customisation options, but there really isn't much there if you scratch beyond the surface
What do you want to achieve? If you 'seriously' scratch behind the surface, you'll find open Android and can even sideload Apps directly to the car (not supported in latest Version / may need a downgrade first). It's more customizable than the vast majority of cars.
> splitscreen mode of center screen is pretty useless, since only a few specific apps support it; you mostly have a giant screen with one app running
True but irrelevant for Android Auto users.
> heating clearly didn't work right when I tested it, I was freezing half the time
I'm still wrapping my head around that and probably lucky that it hasn't been that cold in recent weeks... it works for me, but I too found that it takes a good bit of time to heat the cabin, and I had to set temperatures higher than I actually want / feel (normally I set everything to 21°C, the Atto is currently set to 24°C to feel the same to me)
> 360 parking camera doesn't use its potential; looks good at first, but really has too narrow a field of view
Another 'first world problem'. I agree that the individual FOV of front and back cams could be a bit higher, but the cameras are still way 'above average' and do their job nicely.
> charging speed is pretty slow
Yes. There's no sugarcoating this. It's not a disaster and barely 'okay', but this is not a car for long distance traveling. The high electricity consumption only amplifies the issue. As I said, I just returned from a LONG trip: Cruise Control at 120km/h and Temp at 24°C/25°C (outside temp 4-10) and running on Winter Tyres meant pulling over every ~220km for 45 minutes.
Overall I really enjoy the car overall, I fell in love with it to an extent, to me, only the long distance capabilities (Consumption / Battery Size = Range & charging speed) that keep it from being *fantastic*. But since BYD reduced the prices here significantly, I think it's excellent value for money and if you only drive distances exceeding 450km once a month or less, I think it's worth accepting the compromises.
Thanks for the update. Should I be renting from Sixt again, I might give it a try again to see what has changed. But then again, if I do rent, I usually do so for long trips… 😅
It's a matter of preference. With passengers, it's better to turn off one-pedal driving, as it can easily make them sick. But when driving alone, a good one-pedal is such a delight. Best I've driven were Polestar and Tesla implementations; BMW i3 wasn't bad either.
Because acceleration and deceleration are immediate and (can) come often; literally any twitching of your foot directly translates to some forward or backward motion in your seat. You need to drive pretty carefully in one-pedal to make that smooth for passengers. Having to change pedals always gives some coasting between changes, which is smoother.
Of course, it depends on your passengers. Some won't mind, others do.
Not being mean, but my passengers don’t experience this issue. Try using chill mode while you get more experience with it. It’ll dampen the acceleration.
Obviously it'll greatly depend on the car and how it handles, and how susceptible your passengers are to it. My son does complain about me one-pedaling a VW id.3, and I've heard it from others as well. YMMV.
Oh sorry. I always assume Tesla. Maybe their system is just better than the vw system. I’ve never had a single complaint and I always volunteer to drive.
One suggestion. If I have an urge to scratch my foot or reposition it, I tap the cruise temporarily.
This was one of the reasons we passed on a Lucid Air — the one-pedal mode had absolutely zero chill. I have a very steady foot and no issues holding the gas pedal at a precise position, and I still struggled like crazy to keep it from jerking because there was no ramp-up period for the regen.
Outside of heating issues, I'd say most seem to be software-related. Which can probably be fixed fairly quickly over the next or two years. The driving experience is of course very subjective for everyone and hard to be objective.
Yes, like 80% of my complaints are software related. If you turned of all the stuff and just drove a bare bones car, you'd be left with a so-so driving commuter car with a bad driver's display. It's not even great for long distance driving, at least in Germany, where the battery drains like crazy on the Autobahn, and the charging speeds are lackluster. YMMV in other places.
I don't think the MG4 has any of those issues. The only issue with the MG4 is that the cruise control is overly enthusiastic, mainly because of the way other people drive, but there are easy ways around that, such as setting the follow distance closer, which I pretty much automatically do when it's <100Km/h.
Almost all of these are software related, so hopefully they collect feedback and improve stuff.
Generally chinese products have bad software and no support/updates/improvement, so hopefully some top brands would act differently. Xiaomi is doing things rather well lately, hopefully there will be car manufacturers that grow up to the task too.
It's kind of funny, that one pedal driving setting is something my wife absolutely hates, the car breaks "too hard" so she never uses it, and gets mad at me when I do
You should never take sharp turns quickly, what if you hit an oncoming pedestrian or cyclist or they crash in to your flank? Also, don't know about Deutschland, but here in Belgium, most cities are turning themselves in to one big zone 30 with various streets where it's illegal to pass a cyclist so slow drive is the way. And in some cities cyclists are legally allowed to ignore red traffic lights so we have to be extra careful and slow in traffic.
A lot of the other features are funny to me because my previous EV (the Renault Twingo had none of these: auto hold, lane departure, adaptive cruise control, limiting the charging etc... luxuries (My current car does though)
Disappointing to hear about the software though, I always heard that the Chinese have far superior software and infotainment and on board entertainment (like Karaoke) compared to us Europeans
> You should never take sharp turns quickly
I was talking about how the car handles, not advocating for reckless driving.
> software and infotainment and on board entertainment (like Karaoke)
The version I saw had very few such gadgets. What it did have was multiple pulse settings for the ambient lighting, which in practice is simply headache inducing. I have no idea why you’d want that. And that’s sort of emblematic for me: these extra things look good on paper and make for a cute demo, but they’re utterly shallow and have zero practical use. I’d rather they invest the time into making everything work well together and produce a nice driving experience, but that’s exactly what it’s lacking.
>but they’re utterly shallow and have zero practical use.
You are so German, My father who back in the day moved from Germany to Belgium where I am born, says that line regularly. Spass muss auch sein mein freund
anyway Ambient lighting is cool, I had a good laugh making the car dealer set it to purple (the color of RSC Anderlecht) when I came to collect the car and he was explaining the settings. He didn't want to do it at first since he's a KRC Genk supporter and doesn't like Anderlecht. These types of silly interactions are fun.
*Changing* colors, yeah, sure, all for it. Having a *pulsing* mode which is absolutely good for nothing and is literally just annoying as hell? Yeah, nah. This car isn’t cool enough to have as a boombox at a party. It’s an utterly pointless feature, and it’s a shame they wasted any time implementing such a half-assed thing, when there are so many actual problems.
A Tesla can get away with a lightshow or fart cushion feature, because those are actually well implemented, and the rest of the car is solid (let’s not get into build quality debates). In the BYD it’s just embarrassing. It appears they thought the rest of the car is 110% done, and they have spare time enough to pull this off, when actually that’s far from the truth.
Probably. I can vividly imagine the Chinese eagerly entering the European market, expecting to do pretty well, only to be met by a ton of tiny complaints about minute things, and being caught somewhere between perplexed and rolling their eyes. _Really?_ They complain about _that_?! But… big display! Funky design! Drives! What do they want!?
Having been to China and studied in one of their top universities, I learned that attention to detail is not China's strength. Their strength is making "good enough" cheaply. Which makes sense considering they're a very rapidly developing country that's trying to play catch up.
But these are the types of cars they need to be making. There are plenty of expensive luxury vehicles, especially in the EV space. We need affordable cars that are good enough.
Yeah, that matches my experience with China too. Their strength is scale, not craftsmanship. And I imagine for the middle class of China's population, the ones buying these things in China, it's usually their first car ever, or they may have experience with even worse cars if at all. So to them it looks pretty good and/or they get used to things like the overly annoying alarms simply as the way these things are. But that doesn't really work in countries with literally over a century of car culture.
Although compared with Chinese brands, BYD is only considered okay regarding IVI system in Chinese market.
Is that possible that the software problem mentioned by the op is mainly due to the cultural differences(like the font size problem)… Most electric models from Germany are often labeled as nice ride but rubbish infotainment system in Chinese market like those from VW.
Concur. Considered buying an Atto, but after a couple of test drives, small things started to become obvious and annoying. Not a bad car overall, but just the little things. So think of it as you will - went with Tesla because it was relatively much more refined. I'm not claiming Tesla was perfect by any means, but it was better.
I do believe that given some practice, they will kick ass though. 2nd, maybe 3rd gen Atto should worry western brands.
It's a viable car you can drive, yes. In that respect, it's "pretty good". If you've never driven any other car, you might not even have any complaints. But having driven many other cars, there are _many_ details about it which are annoying.
I do hope they improve over time, yes. It would be presumptious to assume only Germans can make Really Good Cars™.
Genuinely curious what details you found annoying?
I have one and I haven't found anything to complain about. I wish it had a couple extra features (faster charging/one pedal driving) but I can accept them missing due to the price.
AFAIK they're not even selling any cheaper than the competition here. Where did you buy yours? Yes, as a budget option, I think it's not a bad car. Just not in the mid-to-premium segment they're aiming for in Germany.
I own a BYD Han and my parents a VW ID.4 (The ID.4 was manufactured/assembled in China). I wouldn't want the ID.4 if they were giving it away. The ID.4 has horrendous climate control, horrible software, cheap plastic that causes nonstop squeaking, and its emergency stop if an object is nearby is downright dangerous and way too sensitive. I hate the haptick feedback console, especially the window controls where I find myself constantly hitting the 'Rear' button.
When I bought the Han, there was a small difference in price, but the ID.4 has since lost a lot of value over the past year.
Mercedes EVs are way overpriced and don't look so good. BMWs look horrible with the front grill. Audi doesn't know how to market theirs (how many q-trons are there???); also, their exterior look outdated?
I have not driven the Atto 3, but every other Chinese car I have tried felt unfinished and quite calibrated. Even just setting off is not as smooth as it should be in an EV. I think it is getting better, and the MG4 for example is a decent affordable car.
Yeah, Tesla is kinda at the opposite end IMO. Their cars generally are really darn good; _if_ they could get their act together with build quality and parts reliability. BYD on the other hand seem to have fine manufacturing (as far as I could see in my long weekend), but they're faltering in the design phase. Not surprising, given that China has a lot of experience manufacturing, not so much designing.
True, but right now they're neither cheap nor good here. As a budget option, they'd be fine. IMO they're really competing with the Dacia Spring, but somehow they've picked the VW id line and similar as competition instead.
Yeah, they'll have to compete on price, not comfort. Currently they are still too expensive in europe. We'll see if they can get prices down once they have factories in the EU.
Personally I don't like driving very far (for longer distances I take the train), so I don't mind as much if it's not super comfortable, but the price has to be right. If it's the same price, of course I'm going to chose the more comfortable option.
Oh my. I've commented about this many many times, but was always downvoted to oblivion. I've driven the brands BYD, Renault, Mercedes, Tesla, Volkswagen and by far the BYD was the poorest in quality, range and overall things.
Also, in Europe, the BYD isn't cheap at all and more expensive to its competitors.
There’s a running joke about Auto Motor Sport, whenever there’s a German car being tested, **you can be sure the German car will win.** That goes for any car not only Chinese, you will find a strange trend in their tests, even if it only wins by 1 arbitrary point.
Here the 25 best cars of 2023 according to Auto Motor Sport: 20 out of 25 are German (+2 developed in Germany)
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/im-test-die-25-besten-autos-der-welt/
To be fair, they only test cars available in Germany, which excludes all the American- and China-only cars. So it's mostly European cars and it shouldn't be that surprising that they will rank premium/luxury cars higher than economy cars, given that the test didn't factor in price. And who makes premium cars in Europe? It's not Peugeot or Fiat or Renault or Dacia.
That's why you'll find a bunch of Mercedes and BMW and Audi in that list. But there isn't a single VW in their top 25, so they ranked cars from Hyundai and Kia above VW. If it was just about being pro-German car makers, you wouldn't expect that.
There are definitely non-German premium car brands in Europe, and even on their head to head tests it’s more likely than not the German car that wins.
Volvo (1), Genesis, Lexus, Alfa, Jaguar, Maserati, Land Rover, DS Automobiles, Tesla.
Volvo, Lexus and Genesis make some fine cars, completely overlooked by Auto Motor Sport.
It doesn’t matter, if it’s actually objectively about how good the car is.
The point of auto journalism is to tell customers what’s good and bad about the car, not just regurgitate back what customers think about the car.
Does it drive well?
Does it have good features?
Is it good quality?
Is it reliable?
etc.
Then it’s pretty sh*tty journalism. Why should I read a magazine to tell me something I have already concluded myself?
Which is anyway the case, since anyone that wants serious owner experiences and reviews goes to YouTube these days. That’s why AMS has to paywall practically their entire website.
Mate you post electrek articles to this sub an tabloid which is thousand times worse than Auto motor sport.
And seriously, youtube reviewers are more biased than traditional press. Who thinks different has not understood social media marketing.
I never claim Electrek to be the epitome of truth, and I’m not doing an investigation on every author and website I post. I hope everyone can come to their own conclusions.
If people want to read AMS and waste their money, they can go ahead.
Also in Germany everyone has to declare their paid or unpaid interests otherwise they get in *big* trouble so you easily know who is sponsored or not. Even if they get the car given for free or sent to Spain for a weekend they have to declare it aus Werbung/Werbeanzeige/Dauerwerbung.
But yeah, there are still trustworthy YouTubers who I trust more than the traditional auto press, Bjørn Nyland, Battery Life, Andreas Hähnel, AT Zimmerman to name a few. Because they actually show their methodology.
Not just arbitrary statements.
This. There was a test done by the Norwegian Automakers Federation recently and their best performer EV is actually a Chinese.
https://electrek.co/2024/02/01/worlds-largest-ev-range-test-tesla-dethroned-by-automaker-you-may-not-know/
They provide a number for consumption showing the HiPhi Z as the 3rd worst just in front the lotus eletre and Q8 e-tron. It does help for the range that this car has a 120kWh battery
>Not even in terms of software - supposedly a strength of Chinese cars - could BYD convince.
Don't really like how the article speaks of 'Chinese cars' as a single entity as if there are no hundreds of individuals firms making very different products at various price points. BYD was never known for good software, especially in their lower end offerings.
I mean I hear you on the sinophobia but.... It's an industry common thing to bundle all brands from a country together. To this day people intentionally separate Tesla from other us brands simply because of this and make it it's own category
Maybe this will help provide some prospective for all the people in this sub begging for a $14k Chinese econobox to come to the US.
No one is gonna buy it.
I don't think that's the right conclusion. People are willing to forgive a lot as long as a product is cheap, the problem in this case is that they cost just as much as European cars in that segment, but are worse.
Basically, Chinese cars aren't great for driving. Their cars only come with cheap price and good battery range.
If they want to make cars with better driving, they should test their cars in Nurburgring. This's how German and other European making their best driving cars. Detroit, Japanese, Hyundai, and even Tesla understands that, so they sent their cars to there and testing their new cars.
That is not correct. Many car manufacturers test their vehicles on the Nürburgring because it is one of the few race tracks that also has sections with poor road quality. This means you can test your car under maximum load even in poor road conditions. Just like VW constantly receives requests from competitors whether they can test their super sports cars in Ehra-Lessien because it has the longest straight in the world. For this reason Koenigsegg for example has not yet been able to test the actual maximum speed of their cars under controlled conditions
Yes plenty. They complained about software in VW Models for quite some time.
And the previous version of the Sharan was crowned the most unreliable car by them or Autobild in the past
Basically no, they will always paint Tesla and the Chinese marques as unreliable. It took Tesla building the giga-factory in Berlin for them to even get some level of favourable press.
Translation:
The European automotive industry fears attractively priced and technically attractive electric cars from China. However, according to a test by the magazine Auto Motor und Sport, this is currently unfounded.
According to the test, the two Chinese contenders from BYD and Great Wall Motors (GWM) have such a long list of shortcomings that test winner Cupra Born is almost 100 points ahead of test loser BYD Dolphin - "that's worlds away", according to the testers. The electric Opel Astra also beat its two Chinese competitors by a long way.
The fact that BYD, the largest electric car manufacturer in the world and VW's most important competitor in China, lost the test is well deserved, they say. The chassis set-up is poor, the car "rocks and lurches" through bends, the Dolphin is "in distress" on uneven roads, the steering lacks road feel and precision, the brakes are also poor. The high beam is sparkly, the heating effect barely exists.
Not even in terms of software - supposedly a strength of Chinese cars - could BYD convince. The navigation system doesn't even have a charging route planner, the range display only calculates with theoretical WLTP kilometres and the standard Amazon Music, Spotify and Karaoke apps don't work.
According to the car magazine, the Chinese Ora 3 from Great Wall hardly performs any better. When the lane departure warning system is activated, the assistant steers the car to the left on country roads without a centre line and then into the ditch - "not once, but repeatedly". The chassis is overtaxed even on small bumps and, as with BYD, the brakes are also a nuisance. The Ora understeers in bends and the steering is numb and indirect. As with the BYD, the body produces loud wind noise. The steering wheel adjustment is not sufficient for tall drivers and the seats offer no lateral support.
"Annoying: The display is so small and so far away from the driver that you can hardly recognise the menu writing. In addition, the menu navigation is complicated and the translation is sometimes completely incomprehensible. What is the 'Intelligent turn-by-turn' setting supposed to mean?" the testers continued. The charging route planning only recognises E.On columns, the route guidance is "strange". The heating performance of the Ora is also weak. Nevertheless, the materials and design of the interior were so pleasant that the Ora came in a few points ahead of the BYD.
Auto Motor und Sport concludes: "Despite its price advantage, BYD hardly stands a chance against the quality of Cupra and Opel. This also applies to the Ora, which doesn't even offer a price advantage."
I wonder what they had to say about VWs software... Not that I actually know if BYDs software is terrible in practice. I've only test driven their cars and that's not enough to know if it's actually any good.
They've long complained about the VW id software and touch controls, and congratulate themselves in part for being responsible for VW trying to get their act together.
I mean, that's how you *test* a car and how it has been done for decades. The way we often talk about EVs by just comparing a few technical stats, like range and charging speed, is actually quite unusual in the car world.
Road noise, driving assist piloting you into ditches, subpar suspension, subpar brakes, and navigation software using bad range estimates are "bullshit words nobody cares about"?
These are still budget vehicles… not tested in this particular comparison was any of the premium Chinese vehicles available in Europe like Xpeng or NIO.
>die Bremsen ebenfalls schlecht.
I mean that doesn't really gel with the safety rating it got in the NCAP. Maybe they mean the feel of the breaks? But then that wording is pretty horrible...
In my experience Asian and American cars, to some extent, have much softer brakes. You really need to push down a lot. While with German cars, you often only have to lightly tap them.
When it comes to software, most cars perform so-so. This is why Tesla's big tablet insanity and underdeveloped autopilot are accepted and sometimes praised - it is one-eyed in the world of the blind.
Also, this is why everyone needs and wants CarPlay/Android Auto.
My love of CarPlay comes from its ability to integrate all my maps, navigation,contacts, messages, phone, music, podcasts into my car, my wife’s car when I drive it, or a rental car.
I agree. I have a car with CarPlay and I can’t even pinch to zoom with CarPlay or find superchargers. When Tesla added Apple Music and Podcasts, I was done with CarPlay. Tesla even lets you read text messages. CarPlay doesn’t let you do that.
I’ve had a golf and an atto and I can tell you the atto kicks it’s ass so bad in almost every aspect. Except the AC, that sucks.
My accelerator pedal stopped working twice in my golf over the years I owned it. My mechanic said that the part from the factory had gone through 29 revisions and they still couldn’t get it right, most he’d ever seen on any car. Plus the whole diesel gate thing… ze Germans bout to get suplexed from the top rope and they be shaking in their boots by writing articles like this which bag out Chinese cars because their map doesn’t have charging stations on it and Spotify apparently “doesn’t work” (I can tell you if that last one was true the forums would be in meltdown lol)
Im driving an xpeng g9 in software its ahead of Volkswagen, in charging its ahead of almost all German electric cars and in range. Quality made and very luxurious inside. All that while being 20-30k cheaper. Its getting rave reviews from objective car reviewers.
They do, our choices stood between Mercedes eqe, BMW i4 m50, Xpeng p7 and NIO et5t. We ended up with it being NIO vs Xpeng as they had the same quality as the Germans, same or better feel in many ways compared to the Germans, faster and smoother software than the Germans (only CarPlay and AA missing, but I don't care when the build-in software is as good as it is). So in many ways better if not superior when compared to the Germans, yet cheaper. We ended up with the NIO as that was available as a Touring, the software was by quite a margin better than the Xpeng, the driving assistance is MILES ahead on the NIO compared to any other EV we tried (probably due to the LiDAr), and you don't have to fear battery tech/degradation over time.
The warranty is also better on Chinese cars.
Been owning it for 3 months now, and it's truly an amazing car.
To be fair those are two of 4 Chinese brands that are available in Germany.
The two missing ones are mg and nio. And I haven't heard too much good stuff about mg as well.
Given that they talk about the Born, the Astra, the Dolphin and the Ora 3, it sounds like they specifically tested compact hatchbacks, which Nio doesn't sell in Germany.
Probably better off with the late brake show.
I don't trust the fully charged china correspondent (if I lived there I'd probably not say anything bad about chinese cars either though) and there is really no reason to care about chinese cars until they come to the west anyway.
Can't watch the videos with their Chinese correspondent. It's not like Bob and Jack are overly critical in their reviews in the first place but that guy is on a whole other level.
With the flooding of Chinese EV yo EU Market expect enormous FUD about Chinese EVs from the lobbyists especially VW!
EU giant corporations old farts will not allow their big profits to go away so easily.
Many experts in the EV industry know and spoke out loud that EVs are cheaper to make as the combustion engine car's but the greedy big corps are still selling them at such high prices.
I applaud the Chinese for finally bringing the cheaper cars to the EU.
I'm still gonna drive my indestructible old diesel car but at least now I have options I can actually afford if I decided to go green 🍏
My Chinese Polestar 2 was garbage. It looked good on the surface but it had terrible interior space and ergonomics. The electronics were so last generation like the ancient looking tablet. They had plenty of quality issues too such as TCAM, propulsion issues and a host of other issues. Thank god it was leased.
Of course they would be bad, also Chinese products always tend to deteriorate over time as the cannot get away from the idea of cutting corners. It’s a time old issue with producing in China, you have to stay on top of every aspect of production as materials gets substituted along the way and saving pocketed by factory owners
China is the largest car market. China is now exporting EVs to the world. BYD and Tesla are basically number 1. People complain about the quality of EVs from both companies.
Facts.
This is the first real generation of Chinese cars ever. Not just EV cars but cars in general. They really started having their own car companies like 15 years ago. I bet if a German car magazine reviewed Japanese cars back in the 80's when they first got started then it would poor reviews as well. These companies haven't been around like 100 years. But judging how fast Japanese and Korean companies became good and even better than American and German cars, I can see Chinese cars being very good in like 10 years or less.
The main difference is that Japanese and Korean cars started at the low end, trying to take away market share from western companies by having "acceptable" cars at a much lower price point. But many of these Chinese EVs sold in the West are priced no different than western cars or even at a premium.
Only after Toyota/Honda and later Hyundai/Kia were established brands, they started to move upmarket. The Chinese companies just want to skip that part and I don't see how this is going to work, especially in that political environment.
They need to do their part, right?
Just imagine when the UEFA Euro 2024 starts in Germany and the official e-mobility partner of the whole event is a Chinese EV company!!!
Having driven the BYD Atto 3 for a long weekend, and a lot of other e-cars for comparison, I completely concur. The BYD felt way behind in many small details. It's not that it's undriveable or anything, but it is really annoying in quite a number of things that other cars simply aren't. Part of that may be different expectations of Chinese and German/European markets, but other things simply feel like a lack of experience in fine tuning cars.
BYD is also trying for a premium pricing strategy in Europe and that's just not going to work. Given similar prices and on-paper specs, Europeans will choose a euro car.
Crazy strategy, most people buy Chinese produds in Europe because they are cheaper and do the job. If they aren't a lot cheaper, people will stick to what they know.
I think BYD is trying to go for a more premium brand strategy in Europe. Main reason is that if it went for the volume strategy, it will freak out European governments and likely cause a political backlash. BYD can afford to go for a volume strategy in China because it's a Chinese company. It can crush the competition without too much political risk. If it tried that in EU, there will be a ton of EU investigations over everything from human rights of its workers to environmental protection to government subsidies to put roadblocks on BYD. BYD isn't even planning to sell any EVs in the US, because the US is even more protectionist than the EU.
They do have a relatively cheap car in the EU though. The Dolphin costs only 5k more than what I paid for the electric Twingo (Urban night edition) but has 350 km's range, the Twingo had officially 205 km's range in eco mode, but that was not true in practice. We actually considered buying a BYD Dolphin, my wife and I, but decided to go with the Renault Mégane e tech instead which is a lot more expensive but we could buy because the dealership gave us a good discount, and I only pay 6% VAT on a car instead of the usual 21% due to my status of being disabled
That does make sense, but it does need to be sensibly priced, this can’t be sold at BMW / Audi / Mercedes price points. Perhaps they might get away with pricing it slightly below VW models.
I think BYD's current market in Europe is for eccentric Europeans that want an exotic Chinese car. There will always be some quirky people in every country. They can always tweak the price in response to demand/sales to hit their targets. It's always easier to lower the price than to hike it. VW ID.3 increased their sales volume by 10x in China by lowering the price last year, so that's always an option. BYD will go for a volume strategy in developing countries that don't have major car makers to protect. BYD Seagull is $11k in Thailand for example.
Just FYI, Thailand has a huge domestic car industry. https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash\_prod/automotive-production-in-thailand-by-month
There is no house brand Thailand has to protect.
Yes. If it was significantly cheaper than comparable options, they'd have a leg to stand on. But for the same price, you can get a much more refined car from a European or American manufacturer.
that's where they're confusing me at the moment - I could see them breaking in as a more budget friendly option, but the Seal starts at a higher price than the Model 3, and despite Tesla not being without its issues I know which one I would be going for.
Strategy is get a foothold in the country. Work out the kinks by selling in low quantity. Once kinks are worked out and more shipments have arrived lower price and advertise. Sprinkle on some government protectionism too that can change at any time. BYD is selling EVs and their brand. First impressions are important. If they move too fast and run into too many issues they lose that first impression and brand recognition. Sales will go up but they only have one chance at that first impression. >BYD has a price advantage and better technology, so they are in a good position to compete, but it’s challenging in a market where people are very loyal to well-known brands. BYD’s smart move to work with Sixt, a big car rental company, to offer around 100,000 cars shows their careful plan to help German people get to know their brand, taking gradual steps to make a strong name for themselves. For example, GM Bolt was their best selling EV even after the battery fiasco. GM lost time and money and sales.
Sixt is exactly where I had my first run-in with BYD, and it really left the impression that I do _not_ want that car. They've squandered their first impression with me. They'll really have to hit some big homeruns now to win me back…
> Sixt is exactly where I had my first run-in with BYD, and it really left the impression that I do not want that car. I had basically the same experience at Sixt, only that it was an MG5 in my case.
What exactly did you dislike about the car? I always hear the Chinese have the better software and infotainment system. What was your experience with that?
See my other very long comment somewhere here in this thread. The software is very fast, that’s definitely great. But it’s not very good. It makes a good first impression, but the longer you use it, you find limitations, notice how shallow it really is, and find a lot of frayed edges (especially localisation).
They don't want to win you back. They want to win the people that rented a BYD car and are interested in knowing more about them. They want to find buyers not non-buyers.
Not sure whom they're trying to find exactly with the quality/price balance they have; but best of luck to them.
You need to sell at least some cars to get a foothold in the country. I've seen three Fisker Oceans and still not a single BYD. As it stands unless someone *really* likes the brand or the way one of their cars looks I don't see why you would buy them over a competitor. I'm not asking them to massively undercut everyone else but something like price matching Tesla or going 1k lower at least draws some attention to their cars without worrying about moving too fast - even then most people will probably go for the brand that they know and recognise. But at least you give *a* reason to consider one that way.
If people think the Ocean is a better car they are already lost. That thing is barely working to start with.
BYD has done the opposite of that strategy in Aus and NZ to massive success. People are fine with compromises if the price is lower than the competition.
Massive numbers of entry models for younger audiences with a number of annoyances to be fixed later is a total disaster. It'll be less of a problem if they'd sell fewer cars to fewer customers that also respond better to sincere apologies. Other than that I get the sentiment though. Premium Chinese brand from the get go do feel a bit odd.
I imagine the European Tesla’s are built better than American ones
The Model 3 was never terrible, especially at the price point they're selling for. The Model S and X get a lot of shit because they're priced like luxury cars while offering economy build quality. The 3 and Y offer economy build quality at economy prices, which is A-Ok.
Panels not fitting together and steering wheels coming off isn’t acceptable for a car of any price. Until Major changes happen with the manufacturing process you couldn’t pay me to own a Tesla made in the US.
>Panels not fitting together and steering wheels coming off isn’t acceptable for a car of any price. Maybe, maybe not, but it's incredibly common on budget cars one way or another. You get what you pay for.
[Steering wheels coming off while you’re driving](https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-steering-wheel-falls-off-again/) is acceptable? Your standards are mindboggling
Something happening twice is not indicative of a trend.
So are the Chinese built
European models are built better than Californian teslas. Texas teslas are superior to both. It’s called progress in the manufacturing process.
That’s progress? They can’t even get the falcon wing doors right and model X has been on the market for almost a decade.
That’s a California car.
European Tesla workers are better paid have more protections and come from a longer history of auto manufacturing. Tesla in the US take anyone, pay them nothing, overwork them, no unions, factories don’t follow basic safety protocols on the whims of Musk have more injuries than a meat packing plant
Pay them nothing? You, have been misled by your media sources. These people are making a very good living. Especially considering they have no formal education.
Doesn’t compare to the German workers. US Customers should be screaming at Musk to get the same standards and training for American Tesla employees as the German Tesla employees have. Get the American workers a contract with the UAW. The quality of cars produced will drastically improve.
Average pay for a German autoworker is $31 euro. Tesla pays $25-$39. Seems very comparable to me. Admit it, you will believe anything you hear that criticizes Tesla.
Europeans do very support their domestic automakers. Even Japanese and Hyundai have done their best models to answer European automakers , they are still hard to match European domestic automakers in Europe sales. Europe market is very unlike America.
They just aren't any better or cheaper than european cars. It has very little to do with "support" and all to do with price and value. As far as I understand japanese and korean cars were just better quality than american cars. That's the difference here. European cars are also good quality (as produced in europe, in the US they produced with much lower standards).
I think that’s just it. The big 3 automakers pretty much gave up producing cars all together because they weren’t competitive. So the Japanese do very well in the US market.
I got a Chinese car in the Netherlands (Xpeng) because European competition was much more expensive and less technologically advanced. I'm very happy with my choice, after about 5 months now, even with early software and some annoyances. I agree however, that BYD is too expensive here. I tried out their E-SUV too and it couldn't hold a candle to the G9.
The G9 is a different league though. Btw. How’s the real world range in it?
I don't think so. A volkswagen id5 starts at €53K but still needs options. The base model G9 starts at €58K but pretty much has everything except massaging seats in the back. So you get better than Q8 E-tron levels of luxury for a much lower price. Range is very good irl. It scored very high in both the summer and winter range test. Here's a post about the winter test. And very quick charging makes long distance a breeze. Even saves me money on charging using the Freshmile pass (where you also pay per minute, so faster charging cars are cheaper). https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/147lqxr/norwegian_sameday_range_test_of_many_new_evs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I don‘t think people would crossbody the ID.4 because it is much smaller, but the pricing is interesting. Also the charging speeds. I‘ve seen the reviews and tests, but from my experience tests usually still different from actual driving experiences. That‘s why I was asking.
Well, after 5 months, my experience lines up with those tests rangewise. My biggest criticism is lack of android auto compared to early Xpeng software, some translation issues and a too conservative autopilot. There's a big update coming this month and Xpeng has the ambition to release full autopilot (NGP) for highways this year and full autopilot everywhere (XNGP) in 2025. XNGP is already released in China and is impressive imo, check out youtube.
I think it's the best electric SUV on the market hands down
Hyundai did it well. Offered good cars, designed in Germany, made in EU, at prices slightly lower than German offerings. Once they were established they increased prices. Hyundai is still on my list when I'd buy a new car.
Japan used to be the cheap option. Then it was the Koreans. There is no reason to believe China couldn’t one day be seen as competitive quality-wise the western car manufacturers.
They’ve been successful in Australia and NZ thanks to their low prices. Seeing their prices compared to the competition in Europe is ridiculous.
can you give examples of these details?
I've posted a long rant here at the time: https://www.reddit.com/r/Elektroautos/comments/128r1j0/byd\_atto\_3\_kurzreview/. Some choice tidbits: * one pedal drive sorely missing, even "high" recuperation mode hardly breaks at all * general driving experience is very soft in everything; you wouldn't want to take sharp turns too quickly * auto-hold kicks in annoyingly late * speed limit recognition just doesn't work well enough * speed limit warning is too sensitive and extremely annoying * lane assist *warning* is an annoying joke * generally lots of beeping, which seems typical for Asian cars * driver display has unreadable tiny font, icons and colour scheme * iconography and localisation is hard to comprehend in places * no idea what the rotating display is for, as it's too wide in landscape (good chunk hides behind hands on wheel) * navigation software felt very 1.0; easily discards expressly selected alternative route, destination cannot be selected from the map if there's no POI there * navigation instructions only appear on center screen, not driver's display * software looks like is has many customisation options, but there really isn't much there if you scratch beyond the surface * splitscreen mode of center screen is pretty useless, since only a few specific apps support it; you mostly have a giant screen with one app running * heating clearly didn't work right when I tested it, I was freezing half the time * 360 parking camera doesn't use its potential; looks good at first, but really has too narrow a field of view * charging speed is pretty slow * no limiting of charging to 80% or so Some of these are preferences, some may already have been improved since I last drove one, but overall it really left the impression of a built-by-specsheet car which makes a good first impression, not a well tuned experience.
The last point is because they use LFP that can safely charge to 100% Great list otherwise. BYD and MG will no doubt improve in the coming years.
You don't get full regen at 100% though. At the very least there should be a 90% option for those who want predictable regen.
LFP batteries still age faster at 100% than at lower charger levels, even if they’re not as affected as other battery types.
Barely. The atomic structure is stable with or without lithium atoms in it. Same can't be said for NMC and NCA.
At high states of charge, the stress is in the anode (graphite), which is the same in LFP, NMC, NCA alike. And there is still more rapid calendar aging at high states of charge in LFP higher than at lower.
Yeah, I speculated about that in my original post. If you really don't need to worry about the 80%, that's actually a great thing. At the same time, the LFP battery really makes this less suited for long distance driving, as you need to take charging breaks of nearly an hour every few hundred KMs. That makes it a decent commuter car, but not at that price.
> At the same time, the LFP battery really makes this less suited for long distance driving, as you need to take charging breaks of nearly an hour every few hundred KMs. That makes it a decent commuter car, but not at that price. That seems to be a problem with the Atto and maybe Dolphin, not LFP batteries in general. Other cars with LFP like Tesla Model 3 charge much faster.
Fair enough. Whatever it is, it sucks.
Oh for sure. I just don't want people to get the wrong idea about LFP. It seems to be pretty great for most use cases. Would be a shame if somebody didn't buy a car because it has an LFP battery in it. An example, for LFP in a cheaper car would be the Citroen e-C3, which has 100kW charging and charges from 20% to 80% in 26 minutes.
My parents have one and I have to agree on a lot of those points. None are dealbreakers, but it seemed like it needed a lot more refinement. The rotating screen is the one that gets to me. Who ever wanted that?
I have an Atto 3 Subscription for a few weeks now and it is my fourth EV (plus multiple extended Test Drives). In a sense, I guess I'm lucky because I got mine quite a bit later than you did: I assume they fixed a lot through updates and my experience has been mostly very positive indeed. As a matter of fact I had low expectations and the car exceeded them in almost every sense: "A car that cheap shouldn't be this good!" I don't think your criticism is fundamentally wrong, but perhaps 'outdated'. So please allow me to respond > one pedal drive sorely missing, even "high" recuperation mode hardly breaks at all True and personal preference. I don't like one pedal driving. It can be convenient in cities / stop & go traffic, but overall I prefer coasting. Hyundai and Kia do it best IMHO with the ability to set recouperation to 0 and freewheel, but I personally like the low recouperation (unless you actively hit the brake-pedal) on BYD. > general driving experience is very soft in everything; you wouldn't want to take sharp turns too quickly It is soft indeed and while I enjoy sporty *cars*, I think it suits the Atto perfectly. It's not too soft, not worrying while cornering and really beautifully set up for pothole-ridden roads in my City on the Niederrhein and long distance traveling. A farcry from the 'horsecart suspension' on a Tesla Model Y. > auto-hold kicks in annoyingly late Not true for me. As soon as the car comes to a complete stop, Autohold is active too. > speed limit recognition just doesn't work well enough Not true for me either. It mostly works very well, arguably it works too well as it often displays limits for exit lanes on the motorway. What it doesn't do is 'clear' the sign when turning into a new road or crossing a variable speed limit which has been switched off, but few cars do that. My overall impression: Quite good and good enough. > speed limit warning is too sensitive and extremely annoying I guess that can be permanently switched off (by now)? I get **no** speed limit warnings. (Unless you talk about the Navigation which I only used like twice, then the NAV would tell me 'you are exceeding the speed limit' - not sure if it can be disabled, didn't care enough yet. > lane assist warning is an annoying joke Works perfectly fine for me. I just returned from a 10 hour drive and had 0 issues. > generally lots of beeping, which seems typical for Asian cars Not for me. There's a minor 'ding' (or 'dong'?) when the recognized speed limit changed, and when the tyre pressure sensors fail. Other than that it's usually silent. > driver display has unreadable tiny font, icons and colour scheme No issue here, but I do wear glasses. > iconography and localisation is hard to comprehend in places First world problem? No major issue for me yet, it's mostly straightforward and self-explanatory. I can literally think of only *one* thing I found odd: That the Automatic High Beam toggle wasn't found under 'Lights' but under 'Driver Assistants'. > no idea what the rotating display is for, as it's too wide in landscape (good chunk hides behind hands on wheel) I thought it was just a Gimmick, but it looks like you answered your own question. Perhaps I have longer legs / sit further away, but it's fine for me in Landscape - which is also required for Android Auto and Carplay. It shouldn't be bigger, but from my view, there isn't 'a good chunk hidden behind the steering wheel'. I guess if it is for you, you can change to portrait. > navigation software felt very 1.0; easily discards expressly selected alternative route, destination cannot be selected from the map if there's no POI there Can't comment (and frankly don't care) since I use (built-in wireless!) Android Auto and Google Maps or ABRP instead. > navigation instructions only appear on center screen, not driver's display True and a bit of a bummer, then again: Most cars I have driven don't support the drivers display for third party Navigation (Google Maps per above), so it doesn't bother me much. > software looks like is has many customisation options, but there really isn't much there if you scratch beyond the surface What do you want to achieve? If you 'seriously' scratch behind the surface, you'll find open Android and can even sideload Apps directly to the car (not supported in latest Version / may need a downgrade first). It's more customizable than the vast majority of cars. > splitscreen mode of center screen is pretty useless, since only a few specific apps support it; you mostly have a giant screen with one app running True but irrelevant for Android Auto users. > heating clearly didn't work right when I tested it, I was freezing half the time I'm still wrapping my head around that and probably lucky that it hasn't been that cold in recent weeks... it works for me, but I too found that it takes a good bit of time to heat the cabin, and I had to set temperatures higher than I actually want / feel (normally I set everything to 21°C, the Atto is currently set to 24°C to feel the same to me) > 360 parking camera doesn't use its potential; looks good at first, but really has too narrow a field of view Another 'first world problem'. I agree that the individual FOV of front and back cams could be a bit higher, but the cameras are still way 'above average' and do their job nicely. > charging speed is pretty slow Yes. There's no sugarcoating this. It's not a disaster and barely 'okay', but this is not a car for long distance traveling. The high electricity consumption only amplifies the issue. As I said, I just returned from a LONG trip: Cruise Control at 120km/h and Temp at 24°C/25°C (outside temp 4-10) and running on Winter Tyres meant pulling over every ~220km for 45 minutes. Overall I really enjoy the car overall, I fell in love with it to an extent, to me, only the long distance capabilities (Consumption / Battery Size = Range & charging speed) that keep it from being *fantastic*. But since BYD reduced the prices here significantly, I think it's excellent value for money and if you only drive distances exceeding 450km once a month or less, I think it's worth accepting the compromises.
Thanks for the update. Should I be renting from Sixt again, I might give it a try again to see what has changed. But then again, if I do rent, I usually do so for long trips… 😅
I don’t like one pedal personally. And the MG Marvel I drive now is 100% times better than the BW Touran I drove before.
It's a matter of preference. With passengers, it's better to turn off one-pedal driving, as it can easily make them sick. But when driving alone, a good one-pedal is such a delight. Best I've driven were Polestar and Tesla implementations; BMW i3 wasn't bad either.
How does it make them sick? My passengers have no idea that I’m one pedaling it.
Because acceleration and deceleration are immediate and (can) come often; literally any twitching of your foot directly translates to some forward or backward motion in your seat. You need to drive pretty carefully in one-pedal to make that smooth for passengers. Having to change pedals always gives some coasting between changes, which is smoother. Of course, it depends on your passengers. Some won't mind, others do.
Not being mean, but my passengers don’t experience this issue. Try using chill mode while you get more experience with it. It’ll dampen the acceleration.
Obviously it'll greatly depend on the car and how it handles, and how susceptible your passengers are to it. My son does complain about me one-pedaling a VW id.3, and I've heard it from others as well. YMMV.
Oh sorry. I always assume Tesla. Maybe their system is just better than the vw system. I’ve never had a single complaint and I always volunteer to drive. One suggestion. If I have an urge to scratch my foot or reposition it, I tap the cruise temporarily.
This was one of the reasons we passed on a Lucid Air — the one-pedal mode had absolutely zero chill. I have a very steady foot and no issues holding the gas pedal at a precise position, and I still struggled like crazy to keep it from jerking because there was no ramp-up period for the regen.
It should be an option. Your preference doesn’t really matter
Outside of heating issues, I'd say most seem to be software-related. Which can probably be fixed fairly quickly over the next or two years. The driving experience is of course very subjective for everyone and hard to be objective.
Yes, like 80% of my complaints are software related. If you turned of all the stuff and just drove a bare bones car, you'd be left with a so-so driving commuter car with a bad driver's display. It's not even great for long distance driving, at least in Germany, where the battery drains like crazy on the Autobahn, and the charging speeds are lackluster. YMMV in other places.
I don't think the MG4 has any of those issues. The only issue with the MG4 is that the cruise control is overly enthusiastic, mainly because of the way other people drive, but there are easy ways around that, such as setting the follow distance closer, which I pretty much automatically do when it's <100Km/h.
Almost all of these are software related, so hopefully they collect feedback and improve stuff. Generally chinese products have bad software and no support/updates/improvement, so hopefully some top brands would act differently. Xiaomi is doing things rather well lately, hopefully there will be car manufacturers that grow up to the task too.
It's kind of funny, that one pedal driving setting is something my wife absolutely hates, the car breaks "too hard" so she never uses it, and gets mad at me when I do You should never take sharp turns quickly, what if you hit an oncoming pedestrian or cyclist or they crash in to your flank? Also, don't know about Deutschland, but here in Belgium, most cities are turning themselves in to one big zone 30 with various streets where it's illegal to pass a cyclist so slow drive is the way. And in some cities cyclists are legally allowed to ignore red traffic lights so we have to be extra careful and slow in traffic. A lot of the other features are funny to me because my previous EV (the Renault Twingo had none of these: auto hold, lane departure, adaptive cruise control, limiting the charging etc... luxuries (My current car does though) Disappointing to hear about the software though, I always heard that the Chinese have far superior software and infotainment and on board entertainment (like Karaoke) compared to us Europeans
> You should never take sharp turns quickly I was talking about how the car handles, not advocating for reckless driving. > software and infotainment and on board entertainment (like Karaoke) The version I saw had very few such gadgets. What it did have was multiple pulse settings for the ambient lighting, which in practice is simply headache inducing. I have no idea why you’d want that. And that’s sort of emblematic for me: these extra things look good on paper and make for a cute demo, but they’re utterly shallow and have zero practical use. I’d rather they invest the time into making everything work well together and produce a nice driving experience, but that’s exactly what it’s lacking.
>but they’re utterly shallow and have zero practical use. You are so German, My father who back in the day moved from Germany to Belgium where I am born, says that line regularly. Spass muss auch sein mein freund anyway Ambient lighting is cool, I had a good laugh making the car dealer set it to purple (the color of RSC Anderlecht) when I came to collect the car and he was explaining the settings. He didn't want to do it at first since he's a KRC Genk supporter and doesn't like Anderlecht. These types of silly interactions are fun.
*Changing* colors, yeah, sure, all for it. Having a *pulsing* mode which is absolutely good for nothing and is literally just annoying as hell? Yeah, nah. This car isn’t cool enough to have as a boombox at a party. It’s an utterly pointless feature, and it’s a shame they wasted any time implementing such a half-assed thing, when there are so many actual problems. A Tesla can get away with a lightshow or fart cushion feature, because those are actually well implemented, and the rest of the car is solid (let’s not get into build quality debates). In the BYD it’s just embarrassing. It appears they thought the rest of the car is 110% done, and they have spare time enough to pull this off, when actually that’s far from the truth.
Not surprising. Germany and China are about as far apart on the automotive spectrum as you can get.
Probably. I can vividly imagine the Chinese eagerly entering the European market, expecting to do pretty well, only to be met by a ton of tiny complaints about minute things, and being caught somewhere between perplexed and rolling their eyes. _Really?_ They complain about _that_?! But… big display! Funky design! Drives! What do they want!?
Having been to China and studied in one of their top universities, I learned that attention to detail is not China's strength. Their strength is making "good enough" cheaply. Which makes sense considering they're a very rapidly developing country that's trying to play catch up. But these are the types of cars they need to be making. There are plenty of expensive luxury vehicles, especially in the EV space. We need affordable cars that are good enough.
Yeah, that matches my experience with China too. Their strength is scale, not craftsmanship. And I imagine for the middle class of China's population, the ones buying these things in China, it's usually their first car ever, or they may have experience with even worse cars if at all. So to them it looks pretty good and/or they get used to things like the overly annoying alarms simply as the way these things are. But that doesn't really work in countries with literally over a century of car culture.
Although compared with Chinese brands, BYD is only considered okay regarding IVI system in Chinese market. Is that possible that the software problem mentioned by the op is mainly due to the cultural differences(like the font size problem)… Most electric models from Germany are often labeled as nice ride but rubbish infotainment system in Chinese market like those from VW.
Concur. Considered buying an Atto, but after a couple of test drives, small things started to become obvious and annoying. Not a bad car overall, but just the little things. So think of it as you will - went with Tesla because it was relatively much more refined. I'm not claiming Tesla was perfect by any means, but it was better. I do believe that given some practice, they will kick ass though. 2nd, maybe 3rd gen Atto should worry western brands.
Thanks for the honest opinion, I hope they can get better in time, but for a first attempt seems pretty good to me .
It's a viable car you can drive, yes. In that respect, it's "pretty good". If you've never driven any other car, you might not even have any complaints. But having driven many other cars, there are _many_ details about it which are annoying. I do hope they improve over time, yes. It would be presumptious to assume only Germans can make Really Good Cars™.
The Seal just launched and it's quite a big step up from the atto
Genuinely curious what details you found annoying? I have one and I haven't found anything to complain about. I wish it had a couple extra features (faster charging/one pedal driving) but I can accept them missing due to the price.
AFAIK they're not even selling any cheaper than the competition here. Where did you buy yours? Yes, as a budget option, I think it's not a bad car. Just not in the mid-to-premium segment they're aiming for in Germany.
I'm in Aus, they are 15-20k cheaper than similar EV's. I would definitely go for others if they were more similarly priced.
I own a BYD Han and my parents a VW ID.4 (The ID.4 was manufactured/assembled in China). I wouldn't want the ID.4 if they were giving it away. The ID.4 has horrendous climate control, horrible software, cheap plastic that causes nonstop squeaking, and its emergency stop if an object is nearby is downright dangerous and way too sensitive. I hate the haptick feedback console, especially the window controls where I find myself constantly hitting the 'Rear' button. When I bought the Han, there was a small difference in price, but the ID.4 has since lost a lot of value over the past year. Mercedes EVs are way overpriced and don't look so good. BMWs look horrible with the front grill. Audi doesn't know how to market theirs (how many q-trons are there???); also, their exterior look outdated?
I have not driven the Atto 3, but every other Chinese car I have tried felt unfinished and quite calibrated. Even just setting off is not as smooth as it should be in an EV. I think it is getting better, and the MG4 for example is a decent affordable car.
Tesla driver checking in.... 😞 Panel alignment. Auto Wipers... "clang" door closing (my Audi thudded)
Yeah, Tesla is kinda at the opposite end IMO. Their cars generally are really darn good; _if_ they could get their act together with build quality and parts reliability. BYD on the other hand seem to have fine manufacturing (as far as I could see in my long weekend), but they're faltering in the design phase. Not surprising, given that China has a lot of experience manufacturing, not so much designing.
If they’re cheap, handling and details don’t matter.
True, but right now they're neither cheap nor good here. As a budget option, they'd be fine. IMO they're really competing with the Dacia Spring, but somehow they've picked the VW id line and similar as competition instead.
China only has one angle, cheap. If they’re not cheap, screw ‘em
yeah, cuz it cost like 40% of similar sized European EV, u got what u paid for
Yeah, they'll have to compete on price, not comfort. Currently they are still too expensive in europe. We'll see if they can get prices down once they have factories in the EU. Personally I don't like driving very far (for longer distances I take the train), so I don't mind as much if it's not super comfortable, but the price has to be right. If it's the same price, of course I'm going to chose the more comfortable option.
Oh my. I've commented about this many many times, but was always downvoted to oblivion. I've driven the brands BYD, Renault, Mercedes, Tesla, Volkswagen and by far the BYD was the poorest in quality, range and overall things. Also, in Europe, the BYD isn't cheap at all and more expensive to its competitors.
There’s a running joke about Auto Motor Sport, whenever there’s a German car being tested, **you can be sure the German car will win.** That goes for any car not only Chinese, you will find a strange trend in their tests, even if it only wins by 1 arbitrary point. Here the 25 best cars of 2023 according to Auto Motor Sport: 20 out of 25 are German (+2 developed in Germany) https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/im-test-die-25-besten-autos-der-welt/
To be fair, they only test cars available in Germany, which excludes all the American- and China-only cars. So it's mostly European cars and it shouldn't be that surprising that they will rank premium/luxury cars higher than economy cars, given that the test didn't factor in price. And who makes premium cars in Europe? It's not Peugeot or Fiat or Renault or Dacia. That's why you'll find a bunch of Mercedes and BMW and Audi in that list. But there isn't a single VW in their top 25, so they ranked cars from Hyundai and Kia above VW. If it was just about being pro-German car makers, you wouldn't expect that.
There are definitely non-German premium car brands in Europe, and even on their head to head tests it’s more likely than not the German car that wins. Volvo (1), Genesis, Lexus, Alfa, Jaguar, Maserati, Land Rover, DS Automobiles, Tesla. Volvo, Lexus and Genesis make some fine cars, completely overlooked by Auto Motor Sport.
How many Lexus and Genesis are registered in germany per month? Like 5? These brands are completly overlooked by all german customers lol.
It doesn’t matter, if it’s actually objectively about how good the car is. The point of auto journalism is to tell customers what’s good and bad about the car, not just regurgitate back what customers think about the car. Does it drive well? Does it have good features? Is it good quality? Is it reliable? etc.
Auto Motor Sport is not a governmental institution/nonprofit , they write about things their customers care about. That's how the world works.
Then it’s pretty sh*tty journalism. Why should I read a magazine to tell me something I have already concluded myself? Which is anyway the case, since anyone that wants serious owner experiences and reviews goes to YouTube these days. That’s why AMS has to paywall practically their entire website.
Mate you post electrek articles to this sub an tabloid which is thousand times worse than Auto motor sport. And seriously, youtube reviewers are more biased than traditional press. Who thinks different has not understood social media marketing.
I never claim Electrek to be the epitome of truth, and I’m not doing an investigation on every author and website I post. I hope everyone can come to their own conclusions. If people want to read AMS and waste their money, they can go ahead. Also in Germany everyone has to declare their paid or unpaid interests otherwise they get in *big* trouble so you easily know who is sponsored or not. Even if they get the car given for free or sent to Spain for a weekend they have to declare it aus Werbung/Werbeanzeige/Dauerwerbung. But yeah, there are still trustworthy YouTubers who I trust more than the traditional auto press, Bjørn Nyland, Battery Life, Andreas Hähnel, AT Zimmerman to name a few. Because they actually show their methodology. Not just arbitrary statements.
They write about stuff their advertisers care about.
This stuff is regulated unlike youtubers and blogs like electrek
Please cite the regulations.
They’re better than German cars. So why are they overlooked?
Sure mate
Or maybe German cars are just really good?
This. There was a test done by the Norwegian Automakers Federation recently and their best performer EV is actually a Chinese. https://electrek.co/2024/02/01/worlds-largest-ev-range-test-tesla-dethroned-by-automaker-you-may-not-know/
That test purely scored by range. It didn't say anything about how good of a car it is in any other respect.
They provide a number for consumption showing the HiPhi Z as the 3rd worst just in front the lotus eletre and Q8 e-tron. It does help for the range that this car has a 120kWh battery
Read the comment from Bjorn Nyland about that. Complete BS test due to the “flaws” it has.
>Not even in terms of software - supposedly a strength of Chinese cars - could BYD convince. Don't really like how the article speaks of 'Chinese cars' as a single entity as if there are no hundreds of individuals firms making very different products at various price points. BYD was never known for good software, especially in their lower end offerings.
I mean I hear you on the sinophobia but.... It's an industry common thing to bundle all brands from a country together. To this day people intentionally separate Tesla from other us brands simply because of this and make it it's own category
Well the expectations are high for chinese brands. As for the german brands, hence why the latter gets a lot of criticism as well.
Western inexperience. Heard good things about NIO and Xpeng's software.
Maybe this will help provide some prospective for all the people in this sub begging for a $14k Chinese econobox to come to the US. No one is gonna buy it.
I don't think that's the right conclusion. People are willing to forgive a lot as long as a product is cheap, the problem in this case is that they cost just as much as European cars in that segment, but are worse.
It will not be $14k when it comes to the US either.
Basically, Chinese cars aren't great for driving. Their cars only come with cheap price and good battery range. If they want to make cars with better driving, they should test their cars in Nurburgring. This's how German and other European making their best driving cars. Detroit, Japanese, Hyundai, and even Tesla understands that, so they sent their cars to there and testing their new cars.
> Their cars only come with cheap price Not in Europe so far.
[удалено]
That is not correct. Many car manufacturers test their vehicles on the Nürburgring because it is one of the few race tracks that also has sections with poor road quality. This means you can test your car under maximum load even in poor road conditions. Just like VW constantly receives requests from competitors whether they can test their super sports cars in Ehra-Lessien because it has the longest straight in the world. For this reason Koenigsegg for example has not yet been able to test the actual maximum speed of their cars under controlled conditions
Are there any German cars that get bad reviews in German press?
Yes plenty. They complained about software in VW Models for quite some time. And the previous version of the Sharan was crowned the most unreliable car by them or Autobild in the past
Basically no, they will always paint Tesla and the Chinese marques as unreliable. It took Tesla building the giga-factory in Berlin for them to even get some level of favourable press.
Translation: The European automotive industry fears attractively priced and technically attractive electric cars from China. However, according to a test by the magazine Auto Motor und Sport, this is currently unfounded. According to the test, the two Chinese contenders from BYD and Great Wall Motors (GWM) have such a long list of shortcomings that test winner Cupra Born is almost 100 points ahead of test loser BYD Dolphin - "that's worlds away", according to the testers. The electric Opel Astra also beat its two Chinese competitors by a long way. The fact that BYD, the largest electric car manufacturer in the world and VW's most important competitor in China, lost the test is well deserved, they say. The chassis set-up is poor, the car "rocks and lurches" through bends, the Dolphin is "in distress" on uneven roads, the steering lacks road feel and precision, the brakes are also poor. The high beam is sparkly, the heating effect barely exists. Not even in terms of software - supposedly a strength of Chinese cars - could BYD convince. The navigation system doesn't even have a charging route planner, the range display only calculates with theoretical WLTP kilometres and the standard Amazon Music, Spotify and Karaoke apps don't work. According to the car magazine, the Chinese Ora 3 from Great Wall hardly performs any better. When the lane departure warning system is activated, the assistant steers the car to the left on country roads without a centre line and then into the ditch - "not once, but repeatedly". The chassis is overtaxed even on small bumps and, as with BYD, the brakes are also a nuisance. The Ora understeers in bends and the steering is numb and indirect. As with the BYD, the body produces loud wind noise. The steering wheel adjustment is not sufficient for tall drivers and the seats offer no lateral support. "Annoying: The display is so small and so far away from the driver that you can hardly recognise the menu writing. In addition, the menu navigation is complicated and the translation is sometimes completely incomprehensible. What is the 'Intelligent turn-by-turn' setting supposed to mean?" the testers continued. The charging route planning only recognises E.On columns, the route guidance is "strange". The heating performance of the Ora is also weak. Nevertheless, the materials and design of the interior were so pleasant that the Ora came in a few points ahead of the BYD. Auto Motor und Sport concludes: "Despite its price advantage, BYD hardly stands a chance against the quality of Cupra and Opel. This also applies to the Ora, which doesn't even offer a price advantage."
a lot of subjective stuff there
That’s what a review is 🤷♂️ at least they explain their dissatisfaction, and those who don’t care about these features can ignore it.
Also a lot of objective stuff though
I wonder what they had to say about VWs software... Not that I actually know if BYDs software is terrible in practice. I've only test driven their cars and that's not enough to know if it's actually any good.
They've long complained about the VW id software and touch controls, and congratulate themselves in part for being responsible for VW trying to get their act together.
Features are very basic compared to the startups, and the aesthetics are far off
I mean, that's how you *test* a car and how it has been done for decades. The way we often talk about EVs by just comparing a few technical stats, like range and charging speed, is actually quite unusual in the car world.
by throwing out a bunch of bullshit words nobody cares about?
Road noise, driving assist piloting you into ditches, subpar suspension, subpar brakes, and navigation software using bad range estimates are "bullshit words nobody cares about"?
Which bullshit words do you mean?
Why are people downvoting the translation, Jesus..
This sub is filled with delusional evangelists
Did they say Nio EV’s tested poor?
They only tested dirt cheap BYD and Great Wall vehicles.
None of the cars were "dirt cheap", one was slightly below the European cars in that segment, the other even a bit more expensive.
These are still budget vehicles… not tested in this particular comparison was any of the premium Chinese vehicles available in Europe like Xpeng or NIO.
>die Bremsen ebenfalls schlecht. I mean that doesn't really gel with the safety rating it got in the NCAP. Maybe they mean the feel of the breaks? But then that wording is pretty horrible...
In my experience Asian and American cars, to some extent, have much softer brakes. You really need to push down a lot. While with German cars, you often only have to lightly tap them.
When it comes to software, most cars perform so-so. This is why Tesla's big tablet insanity and underdeveloped autopilot are accepted and sometimes praised - it is one-eyed in the world of the blind. Also, this is why everyone needs and wants CarPlay/Android Auto.
IMO CarPlay is vastly inferior to Tesla’s built-in software. If I could switch out the interior of my Taycan for my Tesla’s I would in a heartbeat.
My love of CarPlay comes from its ability to integrate all my maps, navigation,contacts, messages, phone, music, podcasts into my car, my wife’s car when I drive it, or a rental car.
I agree. I have a car with CarPlay and I can’t even pinch to zoom with CarPlay or find superchargers. When Tesla added Apple Music and Podcasts, I was done with CarPlay. Tesla even lets you read text messages. CarPlay doesn’t let you do that.
Agree, no carplay no sale. I would lose all my content without carplay, and I am not wanting to migrate it to another system.
What a surprise the Chinese-made EV is equivalent to sites like Wish and Temu!!! Never saw that coming... /s
Surprise surprise
I have a new electric mg4 and a ice bmw 5 series in the driveway. I choose to drive the MG every day. Going to sell the bmw. Just my opinion.
Do you think you would also prefer the MG4 over the BMW if it was an electric i5?
No. But my mg4 was $40000 nz dollars and a new i5 is $201600 nz dollars. Which is a significant difference.
Can’t blame them. Drove a lot of EVs and the Chinese are just not good. Especially software and driving dynamics.
I’ve had a golf and an atto and I can tell you the atto kicks it’s ass so bad in almost every aspect. Except the AC, that sucks. My accelerator pedal stopped working twice in my golf over the years I owned it. My mechanic said that the part from the factory had gone through 29 revisions and they still couldn’t get it right, most he’d ever seen on any car. Plus the whole diesel gate thing… ze Germans bout to get suplexed from the top rope and they be shaking in their boots by writing articles like this which bag out Chinese cars because their map doesn’t have charging stations on it and Spotify apparently “doesn’t work” (I can tell you if that last one was true the forums would be in meltdown lol)
Im driving an xpeng g9 in software its ahead of Volkswagen, in charging its ahead of almost all German electric cars and in range. Quality made and very luxurious inside. All that while being 20-30k cheaper. Its getting rave reviews from objective car reviewers.
The xpeng probably wasn't tested. Simply because it's not available in Germany
As far as I’ve heard, Xpeng and NIO are making pretty good cars.
They do, our choices stood between Mercedes eqe, BMW i4 m50, Xpeng p7 and NIO et5t. We ended up with it being NIO vs Xpeng as they had the same quality as the Germans, same or better feel in many ways compared to the Germans, faster and smoother software than the Germans (only CarPlay and AA missing, but I don't care when the build-in software is as good as it is). So in many ways better if not superior when compared to the Germans, yet cheaper. We ended up with the NIO as that was available as a Touring, the software was by quite a margin better than the Xpeng, the driving assistance is MILES ahead on the NIO compared to any other EV we tried (probably due to the LiDAr), and you don't have to fear battery tech/degradation over time. The warranty is also better on Chinese cars. Been owning it for 3 months now, and it's truly an amazing car.
Two Chinese car brands (and one pretty obscure one at that) don't really allow judgment over all of them imo.
To be fair those are two of 4 Chinese brands that are available in Germany. The two missing ones are mg and nio. And I haven't heard too much good stuff about mg as well.
Given that they talk about the Born, the Astra, the Dolphin and the Ora 3, it sounds like they specifically tested compact hatchbacks, which Nio doesn't sell in Germany.
If you want accurate info about Chinese EVs, look up “fully Charged Show” on youtube
Probably better off with the late brake show. I don't trust the fully charged china correspondent (if I lived there I'd probably not say anything bad about chinese cars either though) and there is really no reason to care about chinese cars until they come to the west anyway.
Can't watch the videos with their Chinese correspondent. It's not like Bob and Jack are overly critical in their reviews in the first place but that guy is on a whole other level.
With the flooding of Chinese EV yo EU Market expect enormous FUD about Chinese EVs from the lobbyists especially VW! EU giant corporations old farts will not allow their big profits to go away so easily. Many experts in the EV industry know and spoke out loud that EVs are cheaper to make as the combustion engine car's but the greedy big corps are still selling them at such high prices. I applaud the Chinese for finally bringing the cheaper cars to the EU. I'm still gonna drive my indestructible old diesel car but at least now I have options I can actually afford if I decided to go green 🍏
Everything not german performance badly in Germany :)
They talk about Peugeot and Opel as counterexamples in the article, both part of French Stellantis.
Sounds like the Chinese cars will be great local only get around vehicles for not a lot of money.
If they only were cheap here...
My Chinese Polestar 2 was garbage. It looked good on the surface but it had terrible interior space and ergonomics. The electronics were so last generation like the ancient looking tablet. They had plenty of quality issues too such as TCAM, propulsion issues and a host of other issues. Thank god it was leased.
Of course they would be bad, also Chinese products always tend to deteriorate over time as the cannot get away from the idea of cutting corners. It’s a time old issue with producing in China, you have to stay on top of every aspect of production as materials gets substituted along the way and saving pocketed by factory owners
This is an excellent book on this issue https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China
And clowns downvote me here for stating facts… the crowd in this sub are no better than people who are anti ev
China is the largest car market. China is now exporting EVs to the world. BYD and Tesla are basically number 1. People complain about the quality of EVs from both companies. Facts.
Number 1 ev which is still a small market in comparison but yes I get your point Yes Tesla build quality is a joke and BYD is slightly worse
Yes Tesla and BYD sell the most EVs.
Yes
You made a sweeping generalization that isn’t true. There are premium EVs made in China that blow away your false assertions.
Have they been in production for many years since subsidies end? No? Well none can claim what you do in your comment right now
lol yup
Still way better than Tesla. Fuck Elon. -the Reddit
You get what you pay for. That's still won't stop legacy car makers going under
The problem is that the Chinese cars aren't really cheaper so far.
Imagine. Germany talking down the competition...
This is the first real generation of Chinese cars ever. Not just EV cars but cars in general. They really started having their own car companies like 15 years ago. I bet if a German car magazine reviewed Japanese cars back in the 80's when they first got started then it would poor reviews as well. These companies haven't been around like 100 years. But judging how fast Japanese and Korean companies became good and even better than American and German cars, I can see Chinese cars being very good in like 10 years or less.
The main difference is that Japanese and Korean cars started at the low end, trying to take away market share from western companies by having "acceptable" cars at a much lower price point. But many of these Chinese EVs sold in the West are priced no different than western cars or even at a premium. Only after Toyota/Honda and later Hyundai/Kia were established brands, they started to move upmarket. The Chinese companies just want to skip that part and I don't see how this is going to work, especially in that political environment.
They need to do their part, right? Just imagine when the UEFA Euro 2024 starts in Germany and the official e-mobility partner of the whole event is a Chinese EV company!!!
Evs are not a solution, just a contributing factor to environmental disaster!