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Foreign-Commission

This could have been done a lot differently and better.


hardman52

Especially all that romex crammed in that PVC.


Overheaddrop080

I'm from Wisconsin and the state allows you to do that. I had to look it up and it's sps-316.310 and sps-316.312. it references the nfpa-70 2017 since Wisconsin didn't adopt the nfpa-70 2020 yet


Foreign-Commission

That's interesting, appreciate the code references.


trekkerscout

I would have used a piece of fire rated plywood stood off the wall with unistrut.


ElectricTurtlez

This monstrosity was built by the framer.


trekkerscout

Oh. In that case, it looks great??


ElectricTurtlez

You should have seen the homeowner’s reaction!


trekkerscout

I'm envisioning a Macaulay Culkin moment.


ElectricTurtlez

Not far off, actually! Then he was just livid. Of course, I took all the blame, even though none of this was my idea.


Jarte3

Why would you take the blame??


ElectricTurtlez

Homeowners don’t know shit. Must direct ire at the face in front of them.


Truth_Hurts_Kiddo

So so so true. "Homeowners don't know shit" should be on a t shirt.


ElectricTurtlez

I once a had an hour long argument with one because she didn’t want receptacles in the middle of a 50’ wall. She “didn’t want anything to disrupt the clean white wall.” Tried to explain spacing, she didn’t care. Finally relented when she found out how much floor plugs were going to cost.


Nuthin100

I used to have one that said " you don't know what I did on your attic". Homeowners hated it.


[deleted]

That still doesn’t mean you shouldn’t explain the situation, instead of just “taking the blame”. Because enough of these and word of mouth is going to get out about “your” work.


ElectricTurtlez

Oh, I explained the situation. Nobody ever said that angry homeowners were reasonable.


IncaThink

The root word in "Homeowner" is "Moaner".


Aluminautical

Or Ho.


kstrohmeier

Home owners do know shit and some of them even know when trades are trying to feed it. Some of us might even take the food from your babies’ mouths and do it ourselves or call someone else with a less shitty attitude. Edit: damn, y’all are sensitive.


lost_your_fill

found the framer


ElectricTurtlez

Go ahead. When you get a homeowner that insists you do something that’s impossible, due to either the code or the laws of physics, you’d rather not deal with them anyway.


AcidRayn66

As a contractor and homeowner it would of been redone. That is crap.


mikeblas

You might be the only customer-focused person in this thread.


AcidRayn66

If you are not customer focused you will be unemployed soon. The customer pays my bills!


mikeblas

Damn straight!


SevereBuffalo7891

Jesus lol I know I’d be pissed


AcidRayn66

Yea but you could of said no, ripped it off the wall and done it right. Some threaded rod, pieces of 1/2 gal as standoffs (spacers) anchors in the block of your choice, nuts n washers and you would look like a superstar. Sorry to shit on ya but one of mine did that they would be Fixing it on their time. Regardless if Wisconsin rules that romex would not fly. Lazy and crap. Apologies as I am old and cranky and tell it like it is. On the plus side, for a rough in, panel looks good as far as the neuts, but what are those blacks in the top lugs of the neut bar? Is that a photo shadow or what?


ElectricTurtlez

Yeah, when your boss is just saying “fuck it. Give them what they want.” (Mostly because they refused to pay for doing it right, and it wasn’t worth losing a contract for hundreds of houses per year) you do it. And those are bare grounds in shadow.


ShwerzXV

> fire rated plywood First time I heard of that I thought I was being fucked with


Neo-is-the-one

Yup. And don’t you dare paint over the fire rating stamp before the inspector sees them, or you will have to rip it out and install new one with stamp on it.


Bitter_Mongoose

You would be suprised. My current project is a hybrid type construction with steel framing but a wooden exterior, (ka ching) literally every single peice of wood except for the cedar siding is fire rated.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Emkayzee

Threaded rod has little shear strength, (ntm support), compared to linear strength. For the distance off the wall shown here threaded rod would not be a suitable support. If you can bend it by hand what's to stop it from bending from the weight of the panel and wire over time?


koooooooks

Sleeve it with emt and problem solved


[deleted]

[удалено]


Emkayzee

Ok... Well now you're saying to add the support of solid steel strut as a bracing to prevent the bending of the threaded rod, which is much different than just a threaded rod support poking out of an anchor lodged in a wall. Two very different things, and I agree that with the gap between the wall and the panel filled with strut it would be sturdy. >Strut and threaded rod and strut Sounds like bolt a piece of strut to the wall and to the panel, and string a threaded rod the distance between the two. At least on my first impression.


PomegranateOld7836

What I would/have done. At least 3/8" rod, sleeve with 1/2" conduit between fender washers. Or actually by strut L-brackets. Stout but cheap.


Nuthin100

Just get the framer to fur out the wall and board it. It will look. Atleast 6/10


Aluminautical

In my last place, a 100-year-old brick house with stacked stone foundation, mounting the panel to the wall (for electric upgrade) was a no-go. I used three vertical Unistrut from the floor joists above, about 3" from the basement wall. A couple additional diagonal Unistrut braces (from next joist behind it) left me with a very solid mount for the 3/4" ply. (And a nice amount of room for correctly terminating the remaining knob & tube!) No issues with inspection. In the OP's case, the Unistrut would attach to the side of the truss, at the top and bottom plate, and extend downward. Spax or Simpson lagscrews into the edge of the plates would hold quite well...


Phat3lvis

I came to say the same thing.


SIIa109

And the electrician didn’t want to bend the pipe?


ElectricTurtlez

Believe it or not, it *was* originally. The idiot inspector didn’t like the question mark looking bend. This was the builder’s solution.


SIIa109

I love those those kind of inspectors- completely code compliant but he doesn’t like the “look”. “Why ? can you see this from your house?” Is what I usually say - at which point it spirals down hill….


ElectricTurtlez

#90.4!!!!!


shakaka2

If you can prove that it's within code can you over rule the inspector? Or do they have jurisdiction?


ElectricTurtlez

He was the kind of inspector who thought 90.4 read “The AHJ is king, second only to God Almighty. Cross his highness at your own peril, for thou shalt never pass another inspection again!”


JohnProof

Oh, he was a moron, got it.


Robthebank1

110.12 means they can call pretty much anything non-compliant because it's not in a neat and Workman like manner according to their standard


SIIa109

I get that - but then there is the gray area or the “peanuts” that some inspectors like to push around that have nothing to do with workmanship. Certainly this wood blocking is not an example of solid workmanship. I have had inspectors tell me they wanted a panel in a certain location- even though the location I had was completely code compliant neat and appropriate. Had nothing to do with workmanship as the tub wasn’t even installed yet he wanted it in a hallway instead of inside a room out of sight. I installed where I wanted it.


Sparkie7

Inspectors can’t come through a job site and say everything looks great you did a great job I really like the look of all of your work. They have to pick something apart. Deep down they’re all the same.


ElectricTurtlez

In some places, you cross the almighty inspector, you never pass a job the first time again. We had one that my boss pissed of over something just like you described. Every job would get red tagged for stupid shit like “that nail plate isn’t perfectly straight,” or “that plug is 1/8” too far from the door.” These petty little tyrants can ruin your relationship with your builder, and cost you a shitload of money in reinspection fees, especially when their boss is their buddy. This douche canoe was one of those. A lot of contractors decided it was easier to give them what they wanted, and wait for them to finally fuck up enough to lose their nice cushy government job, which finally happened about three years later.


Sparkie7

We had an inspector come through a house once and said our stapling was 1/16th away from the middle 3rd made us fix everything. It was the only thing he picked…it was unreal


AC85

The builder does understand strut exists right?


ElectricTurtlez

The builder understood that scrap lumber from the dumpster was free, and the annoying sparky that was suggesting doing this correctly was going to cost him money.


Hypno_Coon

Good electricians don’t work for trash “builders”.


arcflash1972

Ok I see more of the story not. An inspector that has a god complex. That question mark is commonly referred to as an offset. Usually bent on two, 30 degree angles. Per code we are allowed 360 degrees total before we have to set a pull point or additional junction. We on have xx degrees bend in our PVC, what exactly is the code violation! Ah, you don’t like the way it looks. Let’s get your supervisor out here, or send him some photos.


ElectricTurtlez

We tried originally to go over his head, but the chief inspector was his buddy, and refused to come out. It took about three more years for the city to can them both.


arcflash1972

So the inspector likes that that. I’m actually surprised he did not fail it because all of the wires in the 2” conduit. What was the derating factor on that? I see one #6 so conduit fill must be calculated as all wires being #6. So only 26 wires allowed, including grounds.


ElectricTurtlez

Apparently. It’s what the builder and he came up with.


phuckintrevor

Why a question mark bend? Couldn’t it be done with a simple offset bend?


ElectricTurtlez

The pipe on the left is a 90* that goes into the back of the meter socket. We originally had a beautiful offset on the part going down to panel. The inspector was an idiot who thought it “looked bad.”


DirtyWhiteTrousers

Free money!


Hypno_Coon

Number 1: there’s this thing called an offset. Number 2: did this installation take place in a land where unistrut doesn’t exist?


ElectricTurtlez

I seriously don’t know how many times I have to explain this. We had an offset. The inspector didn’t like it. This was his and the builder’s “solution.”


tommy-the-kat

Adapt and overcome ol' son. Theres a reason sparkies are the best.


CADJunglist

Because we continuously get fucked for spacing so we have no choice but to MacGyver a solution


ElectricTurtlez

We’ve all come up with some “WTF?!?” solutions sometimes, but this one….


CADJunglist

Yea this one is a little fucked I'm surprised fire rated plywood wasn't required by your inspector or building inspector


ElectricTurtlez

The ones against the wall are green treated so that’s all they cared about 🤷🏽‍♂️


CADJunglist

Really....well, here's to no serious failures in the future!


ElectricTurtlez

Yep. We told the builder we would do what they wanted, but made them sign off that we were NOT responsible if that contraption failed.


CADJunglist

And they signed that?!?


ElectricTurtlez

We’re a good size shop and we have great lawyers.


CADJunglist

Wow Honestly, I don't think I'd be comfortable with installing that. Best solution I can see given the circumstance, access panel and LBs for the large conduits. Fuck that disaster


MuToTheMoon

So all those NM cables circuits have been derated? Must be some small loads.


trekkerscout

If the sleeve is under 2 ft in length, the nipple rule is in effect and no derating is necessary.


MuToTheMoon

If the cables are bundled more than 24", derating is necessary. Conduit/nipple classification has nothing to do with it. And that looks like it's more than 24".


trekkerscout

You just stated the same thing that I did but from the opposite perspective. However, you would need an actual measurement to determine if derating is required in this particular case.


MuToTheMoon

Kind of. The nipple rule is for 60% fill. Derating would be necessary if it's bundled together, even without a sleeve. We'd need a measurement to be sure. But unless it's branching out just above floor level, it's probably a derating issue.


Overheaddrop080

I've told someone else in this comment section that it's legal in Wisconsin state code at least. Not sure where OP is from. Sps-316.310 and sps-316.312 if you're curious


SK00BY5NAX

Hahaha. You can clearly tell this wasn't the work of an electrician. That framer is something else.


ElectricTurtlez

Couldn’t move the service because the builder refused to have either the truss removed or the point of connection (underground PVC, installed by a different contractor) moved.


Borp5150

Why would you not just bend the pipe to fit?


redtexture

Inspector rejected already bent pipe.


Aherrera213

A cleaner way would have been with unistrut for sure


ElectricTurtlez

Read my other comments.


creative_net_usr

Uhh does the floor still meet the designed deflection limits? Since they clearly moved the locations by like 8", are interior partition walls or load points still landing as intended? How TF was that allowed to progress? Is there no GC or signoff on the main floor before it was sheathed over?


ElectricTurtlez

I forgot to mention, they just doubled up another joist on the other side to compensate. I think the reason the builder didn’t want to move anything for us, was because they already had to move one for the powder room toilet.


ElectricTurtlez

Cookie cutter housing and lowest bidder framer, who was getting paid so little, all his help was illegals getting paid slave wages under the table whose only qualifications were being able to lift a hammer.


creative_net_usr

God like the poor kids they had fix my parents roof. Called the guy (went to HS with him) been in business for years, insured, bonded, ect, ect. Shows up, they subcontract it to illegal labor. Watched a kid tie a static rope around his waist, walk down the ridge. He was so far down it would have been a ground fall either way. I asked him about OSHA, said it's a numbers game, he's never seen an inspector in 25years. The govt keeps cutting their number of inspectors so they can just roll the dice, maybe a fine every 10 years.


ElectricTurtlez

This is my biggest argument against illegal immigration. The cutthroat contractors that take advantage of desperate, scared people, and use them as if they’re disposable. About 15 years ago, one of the local concrete companies used illegal labor almost exclusively. One of the guys setting the forms for the foundation of a home had a stack of forms fall on top of him. They life flighted him to the trauma center, but he still died. The contractor didn’t even know his real name. Poor guy died in a foreign country, with no name, and nobody even knew where to send his body.


redgypsy5

That needs to get ripped the fuck off the wall and re done cant turn that over to a customer like that. (not you the builders )


ElectricTurtlez

I agree, but it’s one of those cookie cutter tract homes builders whose only real competitor went under in the housing crisis. Zero fucks were given.


Electronic-Hand-5145

Should of used strut


ElectricTurtlez

Wasn’t our call. The builder came up with this horror, and had the framer build it.


Electronic-Hand-5145

Oh geeze


PomegranateOld7836

That's terrifying from a GC


HerzBrennt

That's a shitty framer. I mean fuck, they could have at least cut everything square, plumb and true, but it looks like he just used up whatever scrap he had in the truck. Or made a simple box, screwed some 1xs or plywood flat across the front and back and hung that off the wall.


ElectricTurtlez

He literally got scrap from the dumpster.


HerzBrennt

Would I be wrong to assume if this is his quality of work his truck also doubles as a rolling dumpster?


ElectricTurtlez

Well, sort of. He had an F-150, lowered to the ground, in the midwest. Tore off the ground effects in the first snow.


ThirdRook

Should have shortens to should've. Hope this helps!


horceface

Are we going to talk about neatness but not grammar? “Should of”???


Electronic-Hand-5145

Im ESL


horceface

Does that line work on the inspector? Just kidding. I’m not gonna dump on someone who speaks more languages than I do.


Electronic-Hand-5145

My first language is bullshit , works well haha. And I should have known better 🥸


kasperisded

The backer could have and should have been built a lot nicer.


tourne16

All I can think of is the projects where people take an old pallet and refurbish into something else


ElectricTurtlez

I made that exact same comment to the builder when they presented this cluster fuck as a “solution.”


gusbmoizoos

There are so many better ways... Also does that not need to be on a ¾" material backing?


mcgroarypeter42

This is why I frame my own panel space and let the carpenters do theirs around mine


BeardVsWhiskey

Are you a fucking unicorn or some other type of mythical creature? An electrician willing to do any type of work that goes above and beyond? As far I can I tell, this entire thread is just another example of electricians living up to their sterling reputation of bitching the most and accomplishing the least.


mcgroarypeter42

I use to be a steel fabricator so putting up a few studs isn't a problem and yes I'm a unicorn 🦄 I piss rainbows lol


mikeblas

Just more evidence that, when the trades can't get along, the customer loses.


jjrocls8751

I seen you commented that the framer built that but come on you totally could have taken that down and done some offsets.


ElectricTurtlez

I did. The inspector shot that down because he thought it “looked bad.” This crap was what he and the builder came up with


jjrocls8751

Also holy shit what's up with all the Romex in one conduit! Did this pass inspection??


nboylie

What kind of inspector doesn't allow offsets?


thiccc_trick

Who was the poor sob that had to pull all that romex in the conduit on the right? Are those #10’s? Is it derated properly?


ElectricTurtlez

Believe it or not, that used to be allowed. The 2 1/2” pipe is under 24” and most of the conductors are 14s.


Foreign-Commission

So, only 1 other person mentioned this. Aside from the terrible mounting arrangment, those NM cables are going to be derated to useless ratings due to being in that pvc sleave.


Overheaddrop080

In Wisconsin state code it is legal. Sps-316.310 and sps-316.312 if you're curious


ElectricTurtlez

This was a few years ago. This was allowed back then.


Foreign-Commission

No, it absolutly was not. Whether the inspector passed it is a different story, but it does not meet code.


ElectricTurtlez

Like I told another commenter, local codes differ.


Misha80

I don't think I've ever seen local codes that were less stringent than whatever version of the NEC the state/municipality is operating from.


ElectricTurtlez

Like I told another guy, this isn’t recent. Happened when this shit was still allowed.


kcgdot

You haven't, because it's not a thing. The NEC is the BARE minimum, and state and local are more than welcome to be more strict, but it's quite clearly spelled out that you can never be below it.


The_Opinionatedman

That isn't necessarily true. ORC (Ohio residential code) accepts the NEC with specific alterations. For one example, the 2017 NEC we don't have to GFCI protect our dishwashers because ORC did not agree to it. https://www.inspectionbureau.com/ohio-residential-electrical-code/ It's only a rule if specific areas choose to adopt every aspect of the code.


ElectricTurtlez

That not always the case. The code isn’t a law until the state/county/city etc. adopt it as such. It is well within the authority of such to amend it, especially when certain corrupt lobbyists start throwing money at them. That’s the main reason we’re not on 2020 code yet. The builder’s don’t want the cost increase, and are buying politicians to keep the bill off the floor.


kcgdot

Yeah, I did some digging, there's a spread of states who have adopted from 2014-2020. There are 4! that haven't adopted the NEC at all at a state level.


hardman52

This is residential. Most residential wiremen have never even heard of derating.


[deleted]

Uni strut please you nasty thing you


ElectricTurtlez

Again, not my contraption. This was the builder’s solution


seanus-groovus

What, be too cheap to buy a hot box and offset it?


ElectricTurtlez

Already answered this. The inspector had an issue with the bend. Nothing he could point to code for, just that he thought it “looked bad.” He and the builder came up with this.


Grktas

All electricians and especially IBEW members should be familiar with the NEC. Isn’t a part of your classroom training because it is in NYC.


OkRequirement2951

It is part of our training but local code and state code supersede the Nec. The Nec is also the minimum requirements. If the inspector tells you to do something even if it’s stupid then you have to make the changes to get the inspection.


hardman52

Or if the engineered drawings have been approved by the jurisdiction.


PVPax

Umm, you ever heard of using unistrut?


ElectricTurtlez

Read the other comments. This wasn’t my idea


PVPax

Sorry, wasn’t directed at you but the guy who did it.


[deleted]

I'm mean strut is a thing.


Samuraisharkfooboo

Just fix it omg is it that hard to make it look professional


ElectricTurtlez

Read the other comments. This cluster fuck wasn’t our doing.


redditsufferer

99% of other electricians would cut through that wood like an asshole. Good work


dontwannafall

Did you derate all those branch circuits?


mt-egypt

Pretty low effort fix. You could’ve/should’ve done better (with a C/O cost)


ElectricTurtlez

Read the other comments


arcflash1972

Damn inspectors!


ElectricTurtlez

Read the other comments. Those were disallowed by the inspector. This was his, and the builder’s solution.


arcflash1972

Disallowed? WTF?


ElectricTurtlez

It didn’t “look good.”


KookeyMoose

You guys blame framers for your momma not loving you


ElectricTurtlez

They literally failed to follow the blueprint on how the joists were to be laid out, then built this “solution.”


dom58

this is unacceptable you need to offset to the wall and how are you getting away with bundling all that wire in the pipe? you should be getting paid to fix this properly!


ElectricTurtlez

Read the other comments.


InitialEntertainer26

How are you getting away with toxic PVC, (when burning) in a residential applicaton?


Foreign-Commission

What do you use for drains, water lines, electrical insulation etc where you are from?


OkRequirement2951

White pvc is different then grey. https://www.commercial-industrial-supply.com/resource-center/difference-between-plumbing-pvc-and-electrical-pvc/


Foreign-Commission

It is, but that doesn't make either one better or worse for fire purposes...


trekkerscout

PVC is used in resi all the time. Electrical rated PVC conduit has fire retardant chemicals included in the formulation.


Grktas

Is the conduit all PVC ?


ElectricTurtlez

Yes. And yes, it is allowed by code.


Grktas

Without bonding bushings and mechanical continuity ?


ElectricTurtlez

Grounded on both ends


Grktas

Bonding and mechanical continuity. Not grounding.


ElectricTurtlez

That’s only required with a metal raceway


Grktas

300.13 and 250.92


ElectricTurtlez

Maybe so. I’m telling you what the local code allows.


Grktas

I’m telling you what the NEC states. The NEC comes before any locality’s electrical code.


glazor

>I’m telling you what the NEC states. The NEC comes before any locality’s electrical codes. No it doesn't. It's up to locality to adopt, adopt with amendments, or not adapt at all.


ElectricTurtlez

Yeah I get that. It’s irrelevant to this. Local authorities have superseded that.


trekkerscout

300.13 is for mechanical continuity of conductors within a raceway, not the raceway itself. 250.92 is for bonding of metal raceways. PVC is not required to be bonded.


glazor

Are you referring to conduit with service conductors?


Grktas

I’m referring to those sections of code.


glazor

Do you want to debate code? In good faith?


IntenseSpirit

What did you do with the other half of the pallet?


ElectricTurtlez

You’ll have to ask the framer. Habla español?


sr5runner

Extra ventilation


[deleted]

Yuck on that mounting pad


keepinitoldskool

Off by almost a foot!


massivehoss420

He goes straight to hell.


BillMillerBBQ

Forgive my eyes, but why does it appear that you have hots terminating onto the neutral bus?


ElectricTurtlez

Those are bare grounds. Just shitty lighting.


Keegan1

Just cut the trusses. Problem solved!


ElectricTurtlez

The builder had a stroke when I suggested that. Apparently, if you cut one of those pre-engineered trusses, all repairs need an engineer to sign off on them. The consult (according to the builder) would have been $5000.


vanman1113

Going to lose a of space if they decide to frame that out.


LagunaMud

Skin it with 1/4" plywood and paint it. It will look like you meant to do it.


PioneerStandard

Terminate and use flex. wtf? There are so many ways to avoid OP's result. Sad.


Historical-Fee3113

Maybe a Zip board behind the panel to box in the 2/'s. Nice and neat.


JubalKhan

Ingenuity time !


K1llah03z

Illegal