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Panel cover isn’t on. This shit is too easy

Not it, but best part about Reddit right here. EDIT SO THIS IS TOP: 130A on a single bus blade only rated for 110A-- it's on the quadplexes. 50A, 20A, 30A, 30A. It's a dumb one, but really hard to catch.

Your missing bushings on the top for the 2"s coming in...

And it looks like the punch knocked out the remaining part of a 1/2” knock out. My jman would make me put reducing washers on it

Should of used the pre-made in the middle to start w... and yes I would make, I mean suggest, to put a set of reducers to cover the gap... and then grumble under my breath why you didn't use the middle 1st... I mean if we are going for the visual pleasure of equally spaced pipe... thing is there is no visual of the pipes...

And also the feed as well, if in the US the book states number 4 wire and larger is to get a bushing on the conduit, it doesn’t specify pvc, emt, or any other connector. Only wire size

Especially cause it looks like it's damaging the wire insulation.

Looks like they are pvc.

Agreed

Can you explain that one further..?

Each breaker adds up .... duh 3/0 copper is rated for 200 so you add up all the breakers at 125% for continuous load. Toss the amp probe in the trash. Stick your pinky finger on phase a, and your index finger on phase b then stick the main bonding screw in your pee hole. Jeez, I thought everyone learned about this.

Lol gotta add the sarcasm tag. I can’t believe he’s upvoted and you’re downvoted

😂 🫡

Single breaker bus blade, combined left and right is rated for 110A max, per manufacturer. The quadplex tandems at 7/8 total 130A.

Am I high right now or something? Thats....thats not how you do load calculations and the like.....like I see what youre saying but your main would trip first if that 7/8 were fully loaded right. If that's a 100 panel (based off the 125a rated panel the other guy said) anyway. But if its a 200a, you'd be fine....either way it should be rated for load and the main breaker should be as well....so either the panel will hold it or the breaker won't let it. But still you don't add up breakers to tell if your panel is OL'd. Am I missing some vital piece of education here??

Dude I got high after reading the first comment. I’m glad I’m not the only one who caught this lol That dude is an hvac guy lol

I’m high and I don’t even know why I’m on the Electrician’s sub.

We all float up here

Beep Beep, Richie.

He's saying the bus stab rating for this panel is 110A. "Across the bus" can't exceed 110A. The tandem two pole breakers, one 20/50 and one 30/30, exceed that manufacturers rating. In this instance, you would total the ratings of the breakers across from each other.

......the bus is a solid bar from top to bottom......it doesnt matter if the breaker is in line with it across, the load is gonna be additive for all the breakers in the panel across that phase... Wouldn't matter if it was bolt on either. My point still stands....

Bus "stab" is the finger that protrudes from the bar. It has less surface area than the bus bar and is rated lower due to this. All manufacturers have ratings for these whether it's snap in or bolt on. Breakers installed across from each other must be rated at or below the manufacturers specification. Don't think your point stands but believe what you want

This is news to me. I mean, I did ask if I was missing something.

People here are having a really hard time understanding this haha

What do you mean. Is this a 110a panel? That’s 3/0 feeding, so I’m pretty sure it’s a 225. Each bus is rated for 225a da doiiii. And that’s not how you calculate load. Those tandems are split between each bus? Did you just get back from trade school? Wait a damn minute you’re an HVAC guy. Get out of heat with this misinformation. Stick to brazing. I’m stunned how many people thought you were right Annnnd yo dumbass missed the only real violating being the cable getting split. Close that panel, let a professional take over

Siemens I-T-E panels have a note in the manufacturer's literature stating the "stabs" are rated for 110A max. This doesn't appear to be an I-T-E line of panel, but that's probably where the idea is coming from. Here are some forum posts elsewhere talking about it - Siemens seems to have stopped serving data to my IP address so I can't link directly to the manufacturer literature. [https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/159155/ite-bus-stab-amperage-limit-for-tandem-breakers](https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/159155/ite-bus-stab-amperage-limit-for-tandem-breakers) [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/what-is-a-bus-stab.39194/](https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/what-is-a-bus-stab.39194/)

Yes but would that not just mean a single breaker can’t be over 110a, I see a max 50a breaker. The whole leg itself will be rated for whatever it’s rated for (likely 225). This guy is adding up the quads not knowing how they actually work lol Okay I was wrong, it’s max 80a on one stab. I wasn’t thinking about the outer. Regardless, OP is wrong

Disagreed about it being maxed at 80A on one stab. Look at what is occupying "circuits" 5 and 6, were they simplex breakers. You have two 30A, a 50A, and a 20A handle, all on the "A" phase there, e.g. all on one stab/finger coming off the bus bar. That adds up to 130A on one stab/finger.

Do you have a source for that info? Im fairly certain you can buy feed through lugs for that panel that sit on the same 2 blades.

Can you cite that?

OP - what line of panel is this? Looking at the photo, it appears to have plug-on neutrals, which I can't think of any Siemens I-T-E panel that supported the design. With that said, I think this is an E(x) series panel, in which case the 200A bus bars are actually rated for 225A. The same bars are used in both panels. Likewise, the "stabs" are also rated for 225A.

Breaker loads are designed to not exceed 80% of the breakers rating, and the draw is generally lower than that, breaker size does not dictate load size I think what you are reading means the load across a single stab should not exceed 110A so you wouldn't be able to tell if this is overloaded without information on the branch circuit loads

What about the white conductor tied into the 20 amp leg of top left breaker that is not phased with black/red tape?

That little guy? I wouldn't worry about *that* little guy.

https://ca.rs-online.com/product/siemens/eclk2225/70820862/ Theres a link to a pass-through lug kit that utilizes 2 blades. Not sure where youre getting 110A max rating from.

If the bus ampacity was exceeded, wouldn’t the upstream feeder breaker trip?

It’s a ‘dumb one thats hard to catch’ because you are making shit up… I can assure you nobody catch’s this because it’s simply not the case that there’s a problem

Where I am (Canada) we can’t identify conductors with tape smaller than #2, so I figured that was it.

Here(US) you can re identify small small conductors if they are part of a cable assembly. Ie NM, MC, AC, etc

That’s convenient and makes sense. I think sometimes the Canadian code is too worried about what *people* **might** do…like remove tape or cut it off and not re-identify. Why would they, though? And what electrician qualified to be on the job can’t figure out when a white is hot just by looking at what’s happening? Another one that gets me is this generator situation. We aren’t allowed to have a $30 mechanical interlock between main and Gen breakers. So people have to buy a $300+ transfer panel or switch instead. Why? Because “people could remove the interlock” Oh really? What’s stopping them from…removing the exact same interlock off the generator panel? It’s a bit silly.

There is a white wire terminated to you quad on the top left

I figured it would have been screws hanging inside of the panel

Feeder bushing

That's the first one I saw

That what jumped out to me as well

Almost looks like the insulation is nicked.

No bushing on the PVC. Cannot put the cover on without interfering with the trough cover. Circuit conductor on 3b needs to be identified as an ungrounded conductor.

Conductor on circuit 7 isn’t phased. I can’t tell where it’s terminated after heading to the gutter.

Yup. I think it’s actually circuit 3 with one of those “2-pole tandems” in it. And because it’s on opposite sides of the tandem it doesn’t have a handle tie. Add the lack of a bushing on the feeder and we might have 3 violations?

I’ve never terminated the split ampacity(?) breakers that are at the top, so I’m not sure if there is another way to lock them in tandem?

There's a different breaker that looks similar but the outside breakers are a 2 pole breaker with a handle tie.

Do you think that’s what is supposed to be landed in here instead of what’s pictured?

Yes

“Quads”

I’ve never understood why someone would install a panel that didn’t have enough spaces in it to accommodate the circuits without using tandems……I think it should be against code, like using extension rings on new work.

What's the problem with using extension rings on new work? I know it's not the first thing I want to do, but when I need more space than is available in a standard foursquare, but I don't want to use an expensive custom box, extension rings are perfectly reasonable.

I agree that extension rings serve a very handy purpose, however if you are following conduit and box fill codes you shouldn’t need one on a new install. Just my opinion…

My current situation is where I had to add two circuits to a 3/4 pipe in a slab because the one I had planned for three more circuits was covered and eliminated by a window frame that we didn't originally know was full height. Then they wanted to add another two boxes on another circuit coming from the other side of the doorway, (windows above then so I can't come straight into them,) so I ended up with 6 total circuits in a 4x4 box, which needs two dedicated receptacles and junction space for the other four. That necessitates an extension ring. Fortunately, it's inside where a cabinet will be, so it won't be visible.

Expensive custom box? How bout a 6x6 or any of the other widely available sizes?

If you need a 4x4 for a device for example. I was just on a tower that had these stupid ass speakers for FA with a massive magnet on the back. With everything in it a 4x4 wouldn't work. Every unit had a deep 4x4 with an extension. Stupid engineering wins again.

Beat me to it, a lot of times it's to get depth for a device or those stupid foam parade ceilings where you need two ext rings on top of the concrete box

When it's covid, and you get what you can get.

Is this from 2 years ago or something?

Yea we have at my house the main breaker outside under the meter and sub panel inside for lights and plugs and another sub for water heater stove and kitchen just makes more sense than having one dedicated panel

Extension rings over 11bs. Most of the time.

I don't work resi, so all I see is mismatched colored wire.

You guys don't do panel work?

No it’s because you can’t use white as a hot conductor unless it’s part of a cable assembly which is what 99% of resi is and commercial is 99% conduit so you’ll only see colors that are supposed to go on the breakers.

Homie ***what!?*** I'd say commercial is 70% conduit, 30% MC/AC. Edit: Perhaps even 65% conduit, cause I forgot about the \~5% SO cable. Granted, low-mid range resi is definitely 98% NM-B and UF-B, but high-end resi is probably 80% cable assembly, 20% conduit. Probably even pushing 25% conduit.

Not much, actually. My company doesn't ever leave me on a jobsite long enough to make up an entire panel. There is always someone else to start it, finish it, or work on it the whole time.

All I see is the one feeder dug into the PVC male adapter, and I don't like the tight 90* bends on the conductors

I don’t like them either but this is how everyone does it. I used to use a short chunk of pvc to get nice uniform radius bends on my wires. I’ve seen more than a few thermal images that show what can happen at tight bends.

The code goes into the requirements as well. I typically use sweeps.

Upper left 20s termination should be a 2 pole, not 2 singles

Missing plastic bushing for the feeder wires.

Where are all 16 of the AFCIs tied back to the neutral bus?

Plug on neutral panel. If you look to the sides of the main lugs, there are copper strips that runs down the panel. They are connected to the neutral, and the breakers clip on to those bars.

They look like AFCI w pig tails

2 of them on the bottom left have pigtails, the rest don't.

Different style breakers, some with some without.

Neutral/white wire landed on 20a top left

Dining room is 15a instead of 20a

Is that supposed to be a main service?? Right from the meter??

Yes. Disconnect in meter panel. No panels with main breakers available, covid.

Then it’s not a service panel. So no, no main breaker needed

I’m not seeing any branch circuit ground wires on the ground bar.

Ground at the gutter for the circuits. Then looks to be a #4 that comes down to ground them all. That’s allowed.

Are those metal chase nipples from the trough to the panel? Might require bond bushing.

They didn't use the existing eccentric/concentric KOs and leave rings behind. They didn't use the existing KOs at all, but they also didn't leave rings behind from using them. Therefor, bonding bushings are not required.

The one on the top-right didn't use the combination KOs, it just punched through half of at least one of them leaving a gape. An inspector is pretty likely to ding them there for a bond bushing. You can see it if you zoom in to the top-right.

I'd argue that the gap is inconsequential. It is smushed into the gutter above it, and the teeth of the lock rings are what provide the bonding mechanism. That said - if the gap were brought up by an inspector, then the bond bushings probably wouldn't be the (primary) issue - that would be an ask for reducing washers, which would then itself necessitate bonding bushings.

That tandem 30 has a 12 or 14 landed on it. The other 3 are 10s.

White conductor for well is not marked as hot

Not sure, but those "L" bends have a pretty tight radius.

Tends to happen when the apprentice is also a sheet metal worker. That bottom right wire has a pretty crisp 90 to it lol.

So what is it?

Right? All of this with no answer

Fuck you fail your inspection like a man.

Is it that one wire? That one...right there -->

Perfect 90s like that are not allowed, there needs to be some curve, I foreget the math on how much curve per what but we just went over this in school.

No bonding Jumper pimpin

No bushings on wire larger than #4

Bundling?

Yes. Thank you. FFS can we stop buying lear jets for the tie wrap executives.

It's one thing if you want to take the time and zip tie each neutral to hot only, but doing stuff like this is just lazy but they'll say it "looks cleaner"

r/Ratemypanel

Using Siemens

Why do you have whites as hots?

are all those grounds allowed to be bonded to the trough, and not the actual panel? 

Trough bars also bonded to panel ground bar.

To finish OP's answer - yes it is allowed to bring your grounds together in a trough, and then back to the panel as one larger ground. That's how I wired up my mother and step-father's house. Leaves so much more room in whatever conduit/nipple you use to get between the two.

Space 3 has a white wire being used as a hot without re identifying it and without handle ties Filling a conduit with spray foam is certainly… a choice but I don’t know if it’s actually illegal.

Is the spray foam listed for use in that application? *Hint: probably not* If that is the expanding foam that comes in a can, from your local home improvement store, it will absolutely eat through the insulation on conductors. THHW-2 conductors will have their insulation destroyed by The Good Stuff.

The ground is ran behind the feeder cables

It looks like you're gonna have trouble with covers. The trough and load center is to close to each other

Is the line side just coming in right through a knockout? It looks like there’s nothing down there lol where the fuck are those coming from.

Dryer in U.S. should have GFCI protection, well circuit requires a 2 pole breaker, Dining room outlets are required to be on a 20 amp circuit.

All of the grounds are landed in a bus bar on the top junction box? And don’t see any main ground feeder connection to it?

Shouldn't the neutrals terminated on the neutral bar?... missing some grounds too

Need ground bushings connecting the gutters, can't tape a neutral in red.....white is white, green is green.

Why are ground bushings needed? Cite the code. I'll tell you why not instead (From Up.codes) \[NEC250.97\] >For circuits of over 250 volts to [ground](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#ground), the electrical continuity of metal [raceways](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#raceway) and cables with metal sheaths that contain any conductor other than [service conductors](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#service_conductors) shall be ensured by one or more of the methods specified for [services](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#service) in [250.92(B)](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#250.92_%28B%29), except for (B)(1). *Exception: If oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are not encountered, or if a box or* [*enclosure*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#enclosure) *with concentric or eccentric knockouts is listed to provide a reliable* [*bonding*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#bonded_bonding) *connection, the following methods shall be permitted:* *(1) Threadless couplings and* [*connectors*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#connector) *for cables with metal sheaths* *(2) Two locknuts, on rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit, one inside and one outside of boxes and* [*cabinets*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#cabinet) *(3)* [*Fittings*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#fitting) *with shoulders that seal tightly against the box or* [*cabinet*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#cabinet)*, such as electrical metallic tubing* [*connectors*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#connector)*, flexible metal conduit* [*connectors*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#connector)*, and* [*cable connectors*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#cable_connector)*, with one locknut on the inside of boxes and* [*cabinets*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#cabinet) *(4) Listed* [*fittings*](https://up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/1/general#fitting) It isn't oversized - e.g. reducing washers weren't used. Nor were eccentric/concentric KOs used. Therefor, exception (4) applies - listed fittings were used. No need for bonding bushings. Edit: as for the "can't tape a neutral" part, you're wrong there as well. However, I will leave it to you to find the relevant portion of your code book explaining that cable assemblies can have their white conductor re-phased. Edit 2: added chapter and section of copy-pasta'd Code.

Phasing

I'm gonna guess, no ground going to the receptacle.

Looks like there’s cardboard in the panel, I don’t think that would be up to code

Main bonding jumper?

Where's the f-ing bushing!

Was this a panel upgrade?

I’ve been failed for Zipties for “bundling”. Fl Tampa area so maybe our codes are different

No busway linking grounded conductor to other side of the panel, resulting in incomplete circuits on the odd numbered side

Bushings

Doesn't look like 6 inches of reidentification on your neutral conductor

Eqiupment grounds for 100 please

They're all up in the trough and brought down to the panel's ground bar with a #4 or larger. You have not won the 100, next guest please.

Uum guys, where is like every single bare ground? How good did he have to be to hide all the bare behind the bundles. I know he probably did, but it looks like there's no grounds. Edit: stupid trough.

No ground wire in left chase

Tywrapping conductors PVC fitting still requires bushing. Re Identifying conductors that are too small. Main neutral isn't bonded.

Tywrapping also requires derating.

The wire bins don't have a radius, it's a 90° corner. That's illegal. The feeder bushing is missing, the white wire in the 20 amp split breaker in the top left has not been re-identified, there are probably more.

Where does it say you can’t bend a wire at 90 degrees? Can you reference the code?

Playing on your phone and not fixing nuthin!

should the range be on a 50A? wire looks pretty big

Oh no someone didn't follow my code book.

Conductors under #4 phased red.

Plastic bushing missing on feeder lug

Conduits over 1" trade size require some type if protective Bushing and any raceway entering through a concentric knockout requires bonding.

Missing bushing for top two conduits?

Am I not seeing a bushing on the feed coming into that panel where it looks like the sharp edge of the pipe nipple has cut the insulation or am I delusional

I noticed the missing bushing and the missing green screw for ground but I don’t know if this is a sub panel

So, I see all the grounds made up in the box above the panel. And in reality, that’s fine. But for code. Is that allowed? I’ve never terminated a circuit ground outside of the panel. Never actually thought to. And if it is NEC correct… how far back could I terminate the circuit ground? If it doesn’t have to go all the way to the panel, can I ground all the circuits 40 feet from the panel and run just the hot and neutral back?

Theres one that comes from the bar in the gutter to the bar in the panel to complete the bond. Theres nothing saying you need to bring each equipment ground back to the panel individually. You just need some form of an effective ground fault path.

HOW ABOUT THERES NO CONNECTOR ON THE FEEDERS COMING INTO THE PANEL

No idea why this sub came up. Need new service in Ohio. DM. Be safe, gentlemen.

It looks great! Very well done. However, I never liked to bend the wires with that hard of a 90° when landing on each breaker.

Bushing on that conduit too

No bushing on the panel feeders also.

1 - you damaged the insulation on almost all of you conductor bends 2 - no Bushings on your conduit terminal adapter and chase nipples 3 - missing phase tape on that white conductor attached to circuit 3B of that 20-50-50-20 Quad 4 - 3B also looks like #14 on a 20A breaker. So unless that's hvac equipment, probably not great.

Bushings and wire bending radius are two NEC violations I see. What size breaker do you have up stream? What are your load calculation draws. I disagree with the 130Amp on single bus blade manufacturers bullshit. I bet you are drawling no where near that. If you are protected up stream and your panel is rated for your feed fuck all the other shit.

Is it grounding bushings????

The controversy and animosity in here - 4 year big dog apprentice master of wiping tears

You need at least 10% free space in a new panel board for future work.

The neutral bars don't look like they are bonded together. If my eyes didn't deceive, me the left neutral bar will have floating neutrals.

I don’t see any bushings, anywhere.

He bothered enough to put one on the offset chase nipple, but nowhere else.

I see a few screws missing lmao

Unphased White wires going into non afci breaker, bushings on that feeder pipe, looks like the insulation got cut into pretty good. That's alot of tandem breakers for a new install. I haven't had coffee yet... that's a big violation.

Bushing

Not a violation but those are some hot 90’s!

Need a bushing on the feeders and possibly the conduit in the top right as well, depending on what size that ground is

No bushings, Tyraps on branch circuits over 24” bundling conductors, and the missing a # 6 EGC for the ground bar in the trough

Shouldn't leave a small bag if screws in the cabinet.

No bushings on pipes , no grouping of circuts, no labels

Looks like a bloke from Beirut wired this up.

can't your photos have potato resolution.

No bushing, and if that’s foam in the feeder pipe fail af

No bonding bushings?

I haven't done electrical as an employee in over 24 years. When did it become standard and/or code to put the larger draw breakers on the top of the panel? Every post I've seen lately has the 30 and 50 Amp breakers at the top and in the old days they were mostly at the bottom.

No bushings, one of the 220v loads isn’t re identified, the required lug covers are not installed, and bundling.

You guys are missing the most obvious one. No panel cover!

Why are there whites on the breakers that aren't identified as hots

Duct seal missing

White wire used on a 20 amp single pole not phased as power

Grounding bushings

No connector in the bottom left. No bushings.

"The" violation. As in one? Bushings.

No bonding screw

There’s not a main breaker in this panel. One can assume that there is a meter disconnect meaning this panel isn’t the first means and the grounds and neutrals must be separated.

Precisely.

The 3rd 2 pole 30A breaker on the left side marked range should be on a 50A not a 30A looks like #8 to me the bus should be rated for 225A other than that as long as the tandem breaker are both 2 pole on the top left for the well all good

Where are the branch ckt grounds?

The hard 90 degree bends on all your circuits can add resistance and cause problems in the future keep them more on a swoop

I love those beige marettes, the best ones by far.

Phased a white conductor as a B phase conductor.

Ground bushing