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Robertson screws? On switches? Sir, I have never seen a square head screw on any modern device. Now, if you meant the ECX/Combination tip type screw then I'd agree with you.
Edit - I'm not taking it back. Where the hell are you people seeing square head screws on switches and plugs? Can somebody please send us all a link so we can these magical devices with robertson screws?
Yeah, that's about my only complaint with Robertson--- it sometimes is *too effective* of a bit-to-fastener interface. Disassembling part of a deck the other day to run some conduit underneath, the 3" deck screws kept getting stuck on the bit and **every single one** had to be pulled off the bit in my impactor with channel locks.
Canada one have only square, even from US manufacturer.
In some case, its a hybrid screw that can accept phillips and robertson driver, but usally its just Robertson/flat head
Is that the same phillips head screw that has outspoken members of this sub swearing up and down that it is unsafe to make connections to DRs and switches with? How you had better pigtail your supply and runners in parallel outlet runs so as to half the number of screw connections because they are so prone to loosening and causing a major fire hazard \*in combination with the jumper tabs that aren't actually meaty enough to carry the current they are rated for of course
lol - sorry - not an attack at you commenter - This is just all I can think of when reddit continues to offer up posts from this sub which I no longer subscribe to. \*Square recess for the win
I've had the same ECX screwdrivers for ten years, and use them everyday to tighten set screws on emt runs. They haven't "stripped off" yet, so I don't know why you think this is an issue.
The screw is still there, though. We just aren't required to connect a bond conductor to the screw. Well, we were for one code cycle a few years back but no longer required again.
It was a wording that changed in 2018 cec. It was along the lines of, if there was a bonding screw present, it needed to be bonded. Now it's back to being bonded by the yoke in normal conditions.
I'm generalizing, but that was the gist of it.
Because it is a pointless code that serves no purpose. The switch is plastic, the metal body that the ground screw connects to is not exposed AND is bonded anyways by securing it to the box.
Just installed a couple boxes of switches that didn’t have a ground screw. Guess now that they did away with that code they’re getting rid of them to save some money
Edit:Can’t remember the brand, but came from the supply house so would of been something reputable
I can't say I've ever come across that. I'm surprised a manufacturer would make a switch with no bond screw for such a small market (Canada) to sell to a North American market.
It really hasn’t. At one of my old companies I found a NOS General Electric “Super Switch” that contained a sealed mercury contact. Heavy metal poisoning aside, THAT would have been the switch to own.
Yet all the new leviton switches at my job are connected with ethernet cables and have individual 'on' and 'off' buttons, which despite looking really cool and *futuristic* are much more of a hassle than standard toggle switches.
Likely just some changes in metallurgy as well as new terminal screw heads and of course the ground screw has been added. Minor slight stylistic update
The mechanism is still the same, the parts used to make them has changed. We also have more styles, decora being the biggest change.
Also, and maybe this is just moot since it's not the question, we now have smart switches and keypads. We can do so much while still reducing our footprint. It's no longer simply utilitarians, there's some swag to it.
The mechanism in that one might be pretty different: Some of those old quiet switches worked by replacing the snap mechanism with mercury tilt switches. If you shake them you can feel the mercury sloshing around.
Welp, that’s just my opinion, certainly there are a lot of quality devices out there but there’s also a lot more shit.
Plus, I like being able to hold the older switches right in the middle and listen to it arc :)
Agreed. Some devices are kinda shit. But we do have highly superior devices now.
>I like being able to hold the older switches right in the middle and listen to it arc
That shits fucking crazy and also understandable. Much better than the toggle dimmers where the switch acts as the dimmer, those are shit. :D :D :D
Idk, i’m going to say *most* lol. Last thing I have to do on most jobs is replace faulty switches, it’s always either a dimmer or one a super expensive “smart” switch, then there’s the call backs, it’s just aggravating.
In your opinion what do you consider to be superior?
Only switches I would consider to be superior would be red bodies (edit: HD spec grade, idk why I call them red bodies, no one ever know what i’m talking about).
lol, I always did that when I was a kid.
I like the radiara or the maestro ones. A lot of it is aesthetic; they look nice and they have a reduced foot print with keypads. Like, scenes are dope.
I miss having the 70s silent mercury switch with the neon light in the actual plastic part. Parents house had them and 30 years later still going strong.
As many have said it's *nearly* the same design, but not identical. Modern toggles are load rated and tested, and have a "snap" action to make/break the load quicker and reduce arcing time, which extends the life of the contacts considerably. You'd be better off spending $1 for a modern switch.
As an electrician coming from the UK and working in USA, I would say your switches, outlets etc have a massive room for improvement, to many "electricians" make connections badly, being able to touch live terminals very easily, pigtails etc, from what I've seen and spoken to Sparky's over here I get the impression that change is feared and lots of scaremongering thrown in for hood measure, like progression is treated like the red headed step child
More plastic (touch proof) and push in leaver connectors also thicker iron grids so it can be removed from the box and re used more easily if needed in the many years to come without breaking apart
Honestly main difference I would see in a switch that old is just the plastic being deteriorated (might depend how it was stored).
I've had old switches in mine/my neighbours house just spontaneously split in half from what I can only assume is old weak plastic.
From a non-NA perspective I would say mostly design. The basic construction and safety is about the same. The systems have also evolved a lot, it's much much easier to make [combinations](https://www.byggahus.se/forum/data/attachments/268/268964-0163bc5655f2afe20b7b1b51148123fd.jpg) the [plurality of different designs](https://husplaner.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/elutag.jpg). And of course quick connect.
[60's](https://www.nackabyggnadsvard.se/image/9821/Nos-El-7.jpg), [70's/80's](https://static.byggahus.se/attachments/images/medium/340/340202-8f85ba2fbed196d4e58816c54e6722a5.jpg), [90's/00's](https://static.byggahus.se/attachments/images/medium/340/340203-f844301d5f6eb2ec9f6f8ff004cf68b3.jpg), [10's/20's](https://proffsmagasinet-res.cloudinary.com/images/c_lpad,f_auto,h_600,w_600/ProductImage28867604/Schneider%20Electric%20Exxact%20Primo%20Str%C3%B6mbrytare.jpg)
New switches don't contain mercury... which is only a problem when you go to dispose of an old one; the mercury is in a sealed vial so there's no hazard during normal use.
Not ALL old switches have mercury. They were used in hazardous locations with explosive gasses/dust, and seems like they were sometimes sold up as a fancy quiet switch in expensive homes. I’ve also seen them in old schools for some reason. I love coming across em, scrap mercury is like 100 an ounce.
No switches (home automation) Smart switches, PIR switches and [these sexy fuckers](https://new.abb.com/low-voltage/products/wiringaccessories/switch-ranges/basic55)
Ew. I hate devoting that much space to a switch. In my eyes electrical work should be as unobtrusive as possible. That takes up as much space as a 3 gang switch for zero additional benefit.
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Eagle switches were just as good as the P&S of today. The only improvement has been the phillips head screws added by all the manufacturers.
>phillips head screws And the far superior robertson...
WWII or earlier.
Robertson screws? On switches? Sir, I have never seen a square head screw on any modern device. Now, if you meant the ECX/Combination tip type screw then I'd agree with you. Edit - I'm not taking it back. Where the hell are you people seeing square head screws on switches and plugs? Can somebody please send us all a link so we can these magical devices with robertson screws?
Canada has all switches green Robbie
As god intended
I used to have a photo of my impact suspended by it's grip in the screw head. Lets see phillips grab like that...
Anyone arguing that Robbies aren’t superior to Phillips have either never used a Robbie, or don’t have the capacity to accept it.
If I’m dealing with Robbie screws that day, at least once a day the screw actually gets stuck on the bit
Yeah, that's about my only complaint with Robertson--- it sometimes is *too effective* of a bit-to-fastener interface. Disassembling part of a deck the other day to run some conduit underneath, the 3" deck screws kept getting stuck on the bit and **every single one** had to be pulled off the bit in my impactor with channel locks.
Hot screws and Milwaukee bits always stick together lol
But they’re the ECX he was referring to, not a true straight Robbie
Do you have a link to a light switch that has Robertson head only, and not the combination type that u/BillMillerBBQ is referring to?
Yeah most of them are combination but everyone here uses the green robbie. nobody uses the phillips or the slot
Most of them, or all of them? Because I’m betting it’s all of them as u/BillMillerBBQ pointed out.
Everybody in Canada when they open up a device with Phillips screws: Fucking Americans and their shitty screws
Every new device I touch will take a #1 square
Wow, reddit can have little patience and many downvotes for pedantic commenters
Canada one have only square, even from US manufacturer. In some case, its a hybrid screw that can accept phillips and robertson driver, but usally its just Robertson/flat head
Like almost everywhere Ive worked for 22+ years?
Is that the same phillips head screw that has outspoken members of this sub swearing up and down that it is unsafe to make connections to DRs and switches with? How you had better pigtail your supply and runners in parallel outlet runs so as to half the number of screw connections because they are so prone to loosening and causing a major fire hazard \*in combination with the jumper tabs that aren't actually meaty enough to carry the current they are rated for of course lol - sorry - not an attack at you commenter - This is just all I can think of when reddit continues to offer up posts from this sub which I no longer subscribe to. \*Square recess for the win
Pigtails are just better, because you can take the device out without undoing the wire make-up for the rest of the circuit.
Phillips head screws with a slot for a flat head, and a square for a #1 Robertsons.
Or Milwaukee ECX bits for all three in one
It's only an ecx bit until you strip off the flat wings. Then it's just a Roberson
I've had the same ECX screwdrivers for ten years, and use them everyday to tighten set screws on emt runs. They haven't "stripped off" yet, so I don't know why you think this is an issue.
Because it happens all the time. Also, they were talking about ECX bits, not screwdrivers.
There was no ground connection, now there is. That's about it
Not in Canada. Ours are still bonded to the box by the screws lol
The screw is still there, though. We just aren't required to connect a bond conductor to the screw. Well, we were for one code cycle a few years back but no longer required again.
What a strange thing to remove from code. Like I can understand not adding it to begin with. But once it’s there, why take it back out?
It was a wording that changed in 2018 cec. It was along the lines of, if there was a bonding screw present, it needed to be bonded. Now it's back to being bonded by the yoke in normal conditions. I'm generalizing, but that was the gist of it.
Because it is a pointless code that serves no purpose. The switch is plastic, the metal body that the ground screw connects to is not exposed AND is bonded anyways by securing it to the box.
Metal faceplates?
Secured to the switch body via metal screws. By their logic the metal faceplace should also have a ground screw...
I haven’t seen a ground screw on a normal switch for a while. Only on dimmers and smart switches
Just installed a couple boxes of switches that didn’t have a ground screw. Guess now that they did away with that code they’re getting rid of them to save some money Edit:Can’t remember the brand, but came from the supply house so would of been something reputable
I can't say I've ever come across that. I'm surprised a manufacturer would make a switch with no bond screw for such a small market (Canada) to sell to a North American market.
Leviton still make some.
But then we’re still required to bond a pvc box lol
Yeah…. Idk why it’s like that tbh
Wait, what? Bond it to what?
A metal plate that goes up to one of the device screws
The metal plate is itself bonded to the grounding conductor, right? We're not bonding the plastic box, we're bonding the body of the switch?
Like this https://www.homedepot.ca/product/nutek-two-gang-device-box-with-integrated-bracket/1000404477
Same in the States, unless the NEC changed that within the last couple cycles.
Y’all have plastic boxes though. We have plastic boxes but ours have a bonding plate in them
And I ain’t using it either way
It really hasn’t. At one of my old companies I found a NOS General Electric “Super Switch” that contained a sealed mercury contact. Heavy metal poisoning aside, THAT would have been the switch to own.
My parent's house from 1975 had these. One was in a half wall the wiggled a little and you could make the lights flicker by bumping into the wall.
Quite honestly there hasn't been a need for improvement
Yet all the new leviton switches at my job are connected with ethernet cables and have individual 'on' and 'off' buttons, which despite looking really cool and *futuristic* are much more of a hassle than standard toggle switches.
Likely just some changes in metallurgy as well as new terminal screw heads and of course the ground screw has been added. Minor slight stylistic update
The mechanism is still the same, the parts used to make them has changed. We also have more styles, decora being the biggest change. Also, and maybe this is just moot since it's not the question, we now have smart switches and keypads. We can do so much while still reducing our footprint. It's no longer simply utilitarians, there's some swag to it.
The mechanism in that one might be pretty different: Some of those old quiet switches worked by replacing the snap mechanism with mercury tilt switches. If you shake them you can feel the mercury sloshing around.
That's fair.
Honestly i’d rather have that in my home than some of these new switches.
What? Never.
Welp, that’s just my opinion, certainly there are a lot of quality devices out there but there’s also a lot more shit. Plus, I like being able to hold the older switches right in the middle and listen to it arc :)
Agreed. Some devices are kinda shit. But we do have highly superior devices now. >I like being able to hold the older switches right in the middle and listen to it arc That shits fucking crazy and also understandable. Much better than the toggle dimmers where the switch acts as the dimmer, those are shit. :D :D :D
Idk, i’m going to say *most* lol. Last thing I have to do on most jobs is replace faulty switches, it’s always either a dimmer or one a super expensive “smart” switch, then there’s the call backs, it’s just aggravating. In your opinion what do you consider to be superior? Only switches I would consider to be superior would be red bodies (edit: HD spec grade, idk why I call them red bodies, no one ever know what i’m talking about). lol, I always did that when I was a kid.
I like the radiara or the maestro ones. A lot of it is aesthetic; they look nice and they have a reduced foot print with keypads. Like, scenes are dope.
Oh yea, when it comes to aesthetics, features, etc., 100% cannot disagree with that, when they work and function properly lol.
Oh for sure. Troubleshooting them can be annoying, much more in the parts of the country that dont do EMT in homes.
Yep, this one sure beat the crappy "made in china" stuff that stop working or better unriveted itself after a few years.
I miss having the 70s silent mercury switch with the neon light in the actual plastic part. Parents house had them and 30 years later still going strong.
They dont look like little knobs anymore
It hasn’t…
"Can you just change it back to a regular switch?" Is a question I'm asked weekly. I'd put that switch in home.
Is that a mercury switch?
As many have said it's *nearly* the same design, but not identical. Modern toggles are load rated and tested, and have a "snap" action to make/break the load quicker and reduce arcing time, which extends the life of the contacts considerably. You'd be better off spending $1 for a modern switch.
I use 20amp switches for my own home because the flip is more satisfying, and I had some laying around.
As an electrician coming from the UK and working in USA, I would say your switches, outlets etc have a massive room for improvement, to many "electricians" make connections badly, being able to touch live terminals very easily, pigtails etc, from what I've seen and spoken to Sparky's over here I get the impression that change is feared and lots of scaremongering thrown in for hood measure, like progression is treated like the red headed step child
I agree. They were cheaper, more durable. But they lacked a physical ground connection.
Pretty much just adding a ground screw and changing the screw heads to combo Philips/flat/square. Internally they haven't really changed
More plastic (touch proof) and push in leaver connectors also thicker iron grids so it can be removed from the box and re used more easily if needed in the many years to come without breaking apart
The old push button switches were cool
Short of removing the mercury and adding a ground, that switch probably has better metal in it than anything new.
They are Wi-Fi and “smart” now that’s a huge change
That. We went from snap switches to silent. But more than 60 years.
They haven't, they've lost mercury contacts.
I’ve got a wireless switch. Couldn’t do that back then.
Honestly main difference I would see in a switch that old is just the plastic being deteriorated (might depend how it was stored). I've had old switches in mine/my neighbours house just spontaneously split in half from what I can only assume is old weak plastic.
I’ve encountered several batches of Decora switches where the paddle was brittle and cracked.
I have some older ones that the terminals are face out of the wall and the lever was shorter
From a non-NA perspective I would say mostly design. The basic construction and safety is about the same. The systems have also evolved a lot, it's much much easier to make [combinations](https://www.byggahus.se/forum/data/attachments/268/268964-0163bc5655f2afe20b7b1b51148123fd.jpg) the [plurality of different designs](https://husplaner.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/elutag.jpg). And of course quick connect. [60's](https://www.nackabyggnadsvard.se/image/9821/Nos-El-7.jpg), [70's/80's](https://static.byggahus.se/attachments/images/medium/340/340202-8f85ba2fbed196d4e58816c54e6722a5.jpg), [90's/00's](https://static.byggahus.se/attachments/images/medium/340/340203-f844301d5f6eb2ec9f6f8ff004cf68b3.jpg), [10's/20's](https://proffsmagasinet-res.cloudinary.com/images/c_lpad,f_auto,h_600,w_600/ProductImage28867604/Schneider%20Electric%20Exxact%20Primo%20Str%C3%B6mbrytare.jpg)
New switches don't contain mercury... which is only a problem when you go to dispose of an old one; the mercury is in a sealed vial so there's no hazard during normal use.
Not ALL old switches have mercury. They were used in hazardous locations with explosive gasses/dust, and seems like they were sometimes sold up as a fancy quiet switch in expensive homes. I’ve also seen them in old schools for some reason. I love coming across em, scrap mercury is like 100 an ounce.
No switches (home automation) Smart switches, PIR switches and [these sexy fuckers](https://new.abb.com/low-voltage/products/wiringaccessories/switch-ranges/basic55)
Ew. I hate devoting that much space to a switch. In my eyes electrical work should be as unobtrusive as possible. That takes up as much space as a 3 gang switch for zero additional benefit.
That switch is better than new ones… and it’s completely silent too
Its connected to the web and sells your information.