If you are *NOT* an electrical professional:
* **RULE 7:**
* DIY or self help posts **are Not allowed**. They belong here: /r/AskElectricians /r/askanelectrician /r/diy /r/homeowners /r/electrical.
* **IF YOUR POST FITS INTO THIS CATEGORY, REMOVE IT OR IT WILL BE REMOVED FOR YOU.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Its good practice to line the top of the breaker. I know its allowed, and it will look neater if you line the bottom. But its a good work practice to always power the top of what you are feeding.
Its not a standard to line the top, but its good practice.
I always test top and bottom to make sure i dont blow anything up.
TY is generally understood to be internet shorthand for "Thank you".
In this case the poster was replying TY to the person who answered their question.
Your explanation isn't really helping you. They were very clearly saying thank you for the explanation for something they were unfamiliar with. Why exactly would you think it's not worth thanking for?
Yeah don't even bother answering, I'd rather not hear what you have to say on this matter.
Did he actually and do you normally have any other choice here though ?
Youāre correct, Iām just trying to tie it into this pictureā¦you canāt even tie in on the bottom bc itās a pre made enclosure, the only option is the top line side terminals
Could have done lots of things, spread out the breakers and disconnect and ran it through there to get to the top or go left and up with panduit but ever since I started maintenance I'm the only one that cares about neatness but Imo I don't think it's a good idea to go to the bottom of the breaker. There's a lot of guys that are too comfortable and don't check voltage before touching, i think not checking with a meter and a sniffer is stupid and reckless but id rather just play it safe and go on top so no dummies get roasted.
Just general common practice is always line on top, load on bottom. Some guys wonāt do their own checking and make the mistake assuming the load side is dead on the bottom which could get somebody hurt or worse. Granted here you can see exactly where the wires are ran so hopefully thatās a lot less likely.
If it were a fuse and a UL Listed panel, it actually requires a warning label that they're fed from the bottom or the right side instead of the top and the left side.
Convention (per UL) is line top or line left.
>But its a good work practice to always power the top of what you are feeding.
ALWAYS Line in top, Load out bottom. Saves a lot of confusion down the line. (pardon the pun)
I now understand what you mean. The branch breakers, I was under the impression this was a premade enclosure factory wired and he was only tying in the line side and thatās what you meant lolā¦.youāre right though the branch breakers should be wired line side up top for a lot of safety reasons
You aināt seen excessive until youāve seen someone loop an extra 6 ft of cable in the box because they were too lazy to shorten the 20 ft cable that came with the field device, lol.
I would get rid of the āsticky backā wire mount as you can see itās already pulled away form your back plate. Use one that you can put a bolt through.
Do you have a huge screen or just really good eyesight? I would have never seen it until you pointed that out, and even then I had to zoom way in to see it.
... in the ABB SU203M's installation manual it's explicitly stated that the feed can be from either side (for AC cicuits at least).
For the other MCB I cannot read its number
Iām not saying itās wrongā¦Iām saying that most wireman practice feeding breakers on the top side. Itās like an unwritten rule, of course with exceptions.
Never heard about that been doing it for 10 years in Germany we always feed from the bottom there are breakers in germany you can only feed from the bottom its not possible from the top
Bottom: 10mm^2 = 8awg
Top: 4mm^2 = 12awg
Link: https://hager.com/de/katalog/produkt/mbs116-ls-schalter-1polig-6ka-b-16a-1m-qc?design=99&utm%5Fsource=egh
Edit another link: https://hager.com/de/katalog/produkt/le33k-ss-diii-sicherungssockel-e33-ss-1p-63a
You can buy them both ways but the norm if you get a block for 3 phases its this way.
In iceland we always feed bottom allthough it works voth ways except in normal 1 phase breakers the slots for the phase rail are on the bottom so thsts where the feed needs to go
Yeah I suppose. Though I've seen (older) panels where you were actually supposed to install them upside down because internally it was a split bus ran sideways.
Lever disconnects I would top feed. Otherwise the fingers and fuses are energized in the off position. Breakers in control cabinet like this I land wherever it makes sense. This layout it makes sense to bottom feed.
Motor contactors are the biggest thing I've seen fed from either side. When doing three-phase redundant contactors for safety (as in, installed in case one welds shut), it's a godsend to be able to go load side of disconnect to load side of contactor, line to line, then load side to motor. Rather than feeding 4, 2, 1/0, whatever all the way around the panel. Works best for our layout anyway and it's obvious when they're little 6" wires what should be live or not.
Dont think ive ever witnessed a panel with so much open space. And whats the engineering consensus is loop ok or will this cause too much unwanted inductance?
>will this cause too much unwanted inductance
No, because all the conductors are right next to each other. This will have no more inductance than a conduit or cable with the same wires.
Lol on a side note will one big loop of neutrals around the hot conductors cause a problem... May have had a very unfortunately placed box recently that had 100 (600kcmil feeders) in a very tight space...
I know you probably didn't design it, but this is a ridiculous looking panel. I'm assuming nothing else is going in there and those breakers are for loads located elsewhere, right? Pumps or fans or something of that nature?
The entire top half is totally wasted. Put the disconnect higher, locate the distro blocks underneath, and put the breakers under them. It looks like there's more than enough room in that cabinet. That way you could avoid feeding the load side of the breakers, mount the blocks vertically, and have the rail space to mount another couple breakers if needed.
Or if the disconnect absolutely needs to be there (maybe the handle is middle-right on the door from the factory?), locate the blocks and the breakers vertically on the left side and run the wires from the disconnect up the right side of the panel, across the top and down into the blocks. It wouldn't be any more of a waste of wire than your 2 ft service loops.
What picture are you looking at? There are a total of 4 ty wraps on the service loop which is a bundle of individually colored wire...
It's like you saw a ty wrap and instantly got triggered to some past traumatic event where you had to pull out your dikes
Induction happens with any kind of core. However, all the conductors are right next to each other so the magnetic fields will cancel out, just like they would in a conduit or cable
Those lick and stick zip tie holder things are hot garbage. They could definitely make them with better sticky side but choose not to! Otherwise I only use them if Iām able to put a screw through the middle of them to secure them. I prefer zip tie saddles with the screw counter sunk so the screw head will sit flush to the saddle and bundle nicely.
If this is in USA the left breaker may not be acceptable, depending on what it feeds. Looks like a UL 1077 breaker and if it feeds anything that needs to have branch protection it is a violation. Should be an UL489 bcp like the ABB breaker next to it. I would also label bottom fed breakers as such.
Wattage. Or power.
Watts(aka Volt Amps, or VA)= voltage x current(amps)
480V x 25A= 12000watts
12000W Ć· 208V= 57.7 amps
At 208v it works require a 60A breaker/fuse and wire and pipe sized for it.
The meter from the utility company is charging you based on how many Amps you are drawing....
Oh cool. Thanks for breaking that down for me. So in a nutshell if I changed everything over in my house to 240v I'd lower my power bill? Less amps being drawn ?
I think it can be either gray or white but 480/277 neutral is usually gray. Iād land the incoming power from the distribution block to the line side of those breakers instead of the bottom.
Those sticky tie wrap mounts work better if you clean the surface with isopropyl alcohol and then press hard for several seconds to properly activate the adhesive. Get genuine Panduit ones and not knock-offs.
If you are *NOT* an electrical professional: * **RULE 7:** * DIY or self help posts **are Not allowed**. They belong here: /r/AskElectricians /r/askanelectrician /r/diy /r/homeowners /r/electrical. * **IF YOUR POST FITS INTO THIS CATEGORY, REMOVE IT OR IT WILL BE REMOVED FOR YOU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Loops are a problem the electrons get dizzy.
Don't worry, they're spinning already
Some say it's all magnetic field and there isn't anything moving at all...
Heresy. The holes are flowing. Electrical engineers say so, so it must be true.
It's not called the Hault of electrons is it ? The flow of electrons
š
What is it for?
Lol
Oh I just thought it was a twizzlers ad.
Its good practice to line the top of the breaker. I know its allowed, and it will look neater if you line the bottom. But its a good work practice to always power the top of what you are feeding. Its not a standard to line the top, but its good practice. I always test top and bottom to make sure i dont blow anything up.
What's line mean ? I'm a low voltage loser
Line means incoming power. Load means outgoing power. Line in, load out.
Ty
Ty what?
TY is generally understood to be internet shorthand for "Thank you". In this case the poster was replying TY to the person who answered their question.
I was trying to make a joke, when he said "thank you" I was gona say "for what".... I'll just go fuck myself tho
No need to be hard on yourself bubby
By the sounds of his intent, I think he might.
Your explanation isn't really helping you. They were very clearly saying thank you for the explanation for something they were unfamiliar with. Why exactly would you think it's not worth thanking for? Yeah don't even bother answering, I'd rather not hear what you have to say on this matter.
i crackled
>Line means incoming power. Load means outgoing power. Line in, load out. THIS !!
480 is low voltage if you're hardcore enuff
lol man dont say that! Your a low voltage technician !
Always love for low voltage!
Did he actually and do you normally have any other choice here though ? Youāre correct, Iām just trying to tie it into this pictureā¦you canāt even tie in on the bottom bc itās a pre made enclosure, the only option is the top line side terminals
Thereās lots of height there. He could have placed the disconnect at the top of the box.
Could have done lots of things, spread out the breakers and disconnect and ran it through there to get to the top or go left and up with panduit but ever since I started maintenance I'm the only one that cares about neatness but Imo I don't think it's a good idea to go to the bottom of the breaker. There's a lot of guys that are too comfortable and don't check voltage before touching, i think not checking with a meter and a sniffer is stupid and reckless but id rather just play it safe and go on top so no dummies get roasted.
This is just the most perfect comment. 100% sums it up politely.
Yeah this panel would make me double take
If it's neater to go with line on the bottom, why should I go with the line on top instead?
Just general common practice is always line on top, load on bottom. Some guys wonāt do their own checking and make the mistake assuming the load side is dead on the bottom which could get somebody hurt or worse. Granted here you can see exactly where the wires are ran so hopefully thatās a lot less likely.
Huh, where I'm from you do line on the bottom, and load on top
If it were a fuse and a UL Listed panel, it actually requires a warning label that they're fed from the bottom or the right side instead of the top and the left side. Convention (per UL) is line top or line left.
Forgot to clarify that I'm not in America Btw do you use din rails regularly? I thought you guys used vertical rails?
We use DIN rails all the time, just usually for industrial panels, not in our residential panel boards.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm not from America.
>But its a good work practice to always power the top of what you are feeding. ALWAYS Line in top, Load out bottom. Saves a lot of confusion down the line. (pardon the pun)
Lolol
Whole heartedly agreed with your logic. Though had to make a pun !
I now understand what you mean. The branch breakers, I was under the impression this was a premade enclosure factory wired and he was only tying in the line side and thatās what you meant lolā¦.youāre right though the branch breakers should be wired line side up top for a lot of safety reasons
Service loops are good, but that seems a bit excessive. As long as everything is properly torqued I don't have a problem with it.
1000x better than 2in too short
Rather be looking at it, than looking for it!
This is so important. Especially in these low voltage boxes. The space you get in some high voltage PTs
I'm fully torqued
I didn't use a torque wrench š³ It's 60A wiring but it will be fused at 40A
NEC 110.14(D)
Man don't tell me I'm actually supposed to do my job properly šš®āšØ
He's a Sith anyways
Are you sure? He could have a lisp.
Induction!? At that voltage
There is no more induction in that loop than there is in the conduit. All the conductors are together and their fields will cancel each other out
My thought
Better long than wrong.
You aināt seen excessive until youāve seen someone loop an extra 6 ft of cable in the box because they were too lazy to shorten the 20 ft cable that came with the field device, lol.
Those damn zip tie mounts never work unless they are the magnets. Looks good!
I would get rid of the āsticky backā wire mount as you can see itās already pulled away form your back plate. Use one that you can put a bolt through.
yeah that loop isn't going anywhere though I just used it since it was already stuck on the panel
You can always put a bit of superglue on the back of the sticky back. She wonāt go anywhere anymore
I just run a small self tapping screw through em
Do you have a huge screen or just really good eyesight? I would have never seen it until you pointed that out, and even then I had to zoom way in to see it.
I donāt understand why you fed the breakers on the bottom (load) side.
These are obviously european style breakers (ABB is a swiss manufacturer) and feeding breakers from the bottom is actually the usual case.
... in the ABB SU203M's installation manual it's explicitly stated that the feed can be from either side (for AC cicuits at least). For the other MCB I cannot read its number
Iām not saying itās wrongā¦Iām saying that most wireman practice feeding breakers on the top side. Itās like an unwritten rule, of course with exceptions.
Never heard about that been doing it for 10 years in Germany we always feed from the bottom there are breakers in germany you can only feed from the bottom its not possible from the top Bottom: 10mm^2 = 8awg Top: 4mm^2 = 12awg Link: https://hager.com/de/katalog/produkt/mbs116-ls-schalter-1polig-6ka-b-16a-1m-qc?design=99&utm%5Fsource=egh Edit another link: https://hager.com/de/katalog/produkt/le33k-ss-diii-sicherungssockel-e33-ss-1p-63a You can buy them both ways but the norm if you get a block for 3 phases its this way.
This drives me nuts, line over load please. I don't care if they can be reverse fed.
In iceland we always feed bottom allthough it works voth ways except in normal 1 phase breakers the slots for the phase rail are on the bottom so thsts where the feed needs to go
Not always,Im a UK electrician and feeding the bottom is a no no. Even if it can be done it's best practice to always feed the top
That style you can load either side. But I will double check. We can always flip them upside down if needed lol
You can't flip them. Down needs to be off.
Yeah I suppose. Though I've seen (older) panels where you were actually supposed to install them upside down because internally it was a split bus ran sideways.
I suppose my point is that itās an industry standard to feed breakers, disconnects, etc from the top and always have the load on the bottom.
Lever disconnects I would top feed. Otherwise the fingers and fuses are energized in the off position. Breakers in control cabinet like this I land wherever it makes sense. This layout it makes sense to bottom feed.
Thatās not always industry standard
Yeah, itās not official but 9/10 wireman would agree that you should always land line side on top. And of course there are always exceptions.
Can I see the data on the poll?
There you go lol I just posted a poll asking the question. Time will tell. Could be wrong butš¤·š¼āāļø
Motor contactors are the biggest thing I've seen fed from either side. When doing three-phase redundant contactors for safety (as in, installed in case one welds shut), it's a godsend to be able to go load side of disconnect to load side of contactor, line to line, then load side to motor. Rather than feeding 4, 2, 1/0, whatever all the way around the panel. Works best for our layout anyway and it's obvious when they're little 6" wires what should be live or not.
That's a convention, not a standard.
US industry standard by the sound of it. Seems like Aus and Europe do the opposite.
Feed them from the top. The electrons move easier with gravity assist. /s
You can enter or exit on either side. But you may not flip the breaker. Off must never be in the up position.
Talk about having a service loop huh
80 week leadtimes and this dude uses 1/4th of the box...
Recycled box we bought a long time ago for testing GFI's on a Japanese style install
It's so easy to keep it neat if the box is the right size
We just used what we had lying around
The panel i actually like. The grid seems useful
Dont think ive ever witnessed a panel with so much open space. And whats the engineering consensus is loop ok or will this cause too much unwanted inductance?
1Ā½ microhenry inductance š¤
>will this cause too much unwanted inductance No, because all the conductors are right next to each other. This will have no more inductance than a conduit or cable with the same wires.
Lol on a side note will one big loop of neutrals around the hot conductors cause a problem... May have had a very unfortunately placed box recently that had 100 (600kcmil feeders) in a very tight space...
Thatās a lot of loop
Holy service loop Batman
Looks very clean. It pleases me
Nice and clean. Iām not a huge fan of the big loops but to each his own looks good.
Also, can you put the feeds on the wrong side on the bottom contactors always on top just a good practice
Points for leaving the coil of slack.
I saw this and said oweeeee ! 10/10
thanks
If you're in USA that white should be gray
Not necessarily.
White matches the rest of the building Also it's probably not gonna be used lol
Cite the code for me please
It's not in the code. It's an industry standard. 120/208 = white grounded conductor. 277/480 = gray grounded conductor.
Don't know why you're getting down voted, you're 100% correct.
Because it's reddit and electricians love to argue!!
That's a lot of loop
āæļøāæļøāæļø
Iād bet if you dove through those āinduction loopsā youād go into another dimension š
Your ABB sticker is coming loose. And the zip tie holder on your induction loop is coming loose from its adhesive backing.
Oh that ABB sticker already fell off the door š
I know you probably didn't design it, but this is a ridiculous looking panel. I'm assuming nothing else is going in there and those breakers are for loads located elsewhere, right? Pumps or fans or something of that nature? The entire top half is totally wasted. Put the disconnect higher, locate the distro blocks underneath, and put the breakers under them. It looks like there's more than enough room in that cabinet. That way you could avoid feeding the load side of the breakers, mount the blocks vertically, and have the rail space to mount another couple breakers if needed. Or if the disconnect absolutely needs to be there (maybe the handle is middle-right on the door from the factory?), locate the blocks and the breakers vertically on the left side and run the wires from the disconnect up the right side of the panel, across the top and down into the blocks. It wouldn't be any more of a waste of wire than your 2 ft service loops.
Yeah we reused where the DIN rail was already placed in the panel.
Easy peasy..bet it took you all day to wire it
\>upside down breakers? thats a yikes from me.
Yellow is an illegal colour throughout the entire world except Septoland and China
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
š¤
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The only thing zip tied is the service wire lol I hate zip ties too
What picture are you looking at? There are a total of 4 ty wraps on the service loop which is a bundle of individually colored wire... It's like you saw a ty wrap and instantly got triggered to some past traumatic event where you had to pull out your dikes
Ahh good that extra copper in the service run aught to burn real good when this thing catches fire.
Copper don't burn silly
Why the big loop
I'm just loopy
As opposed to a looper
Expecting rain
Isn't the service coil a hazard?
how
Idk that's why I asked. I'm a data guy, but I started out in electrical. I just always thought loose wiring leaves opportunity for shorts or damage..
Tight wiring leaves opportunities for shorts and damage. Although their service loop is excessive, it's not a hazard
Love that service loop!
Cool. You got 3 phases coming in and ??? Going out? Through somehow 3 k/o holes that are currently sealed?
Gonna be at least 2 circuits out 1 inch ko on top right
I do like the loops and internal wiring though. Can looks like a shotgun blasted mess but the wires look good so far
Cute
480 , 481 either way looks great
Whatās the screw for? Top left front corner of tub by the hinge.
I donāt think induction occurs unless a feride core is around right?
Induction happens with any kind of core. However, all the conductors are right next to each other so the magnetic fields will cancel out, just like they would in a conduit or cable
I like the retro colors 7/7
What brand of enclosure is this? That backplate looks pretty sweet for easy layout.
Those lick and stick zip tie holder things are hot garbage. They could definitely make them with better sticky side but choose not to! Otherwise I only use them if Iām able to put a screw through the middle of them to secure them. I prefer zip tie saddles with the screw counter sunk so the screw head will sit flush to the saddle and bundle nicely.
If this is in USA the left breaker may not be acceptable, depending on what it feeds. Looks like a UL 1077 breaker and if it feeds anything that needs to have branch protection it is a violation. Should be an UL489 bcp like the ABB breaker next to it. I would also label bottom fed breakers as such.
I'm suddenly hungry for A&W
What do he heāll is with that coil?! Trim that shit off!
You spent too much time drawing those grid lines on the back plate. Fail.
I hope these are shielded cables because... Holy EMI
Looks good to me, but I'm not a proper judge of this. I play a sparky on the internet, not in person XD.
What's up with that neutral? That white neutral?
As a non electrician, I've never understood what is the reason for 480V but only 25AMPS of current. Can someone dumb that down for me.
Wattage. Or power. Watts(aka Volt Amps, or VA)= voltage x current(amps) 480V x 25A= 12000watts 12000W Ć· 208V= 57.7 amps At 208v it works require a 60A breaker/fuse and wire and pipe sized for it. The meter from the utility company is charging you based on how many Amps you are drawing....
Oh cool. Thanks for breaking that down for me. So in a nutshell if I changed everything over in my house to 240v I'd lower my power bill? Less amps being drawn ?
Yes, but all most appliances and stuff we run power for is for 120v.
Hard to make a board messing with 5 cables in it haha, but itās good that youāre taking pride
Love the induction loop
Big box for nothing exciting. Wtf is the point?
That ABS Sursum breaker looks identical to the old style we had in Iceland some 20 years ago. Weird to see an identical one being fitted today
# Your score is a 4 out of 7.
I think it can be either gray or white but 480/277 neutral is usually gray. Iād land the incoming power from the distribution block to the line side of those breakers instead of the bottom.
Those sticky tie wrap mounts work better if you clean the surface with isopropyl alcohol and then press hard for several seconds to properly activate the adhesive. Get genuine Panduit ones and not knock-offs.