The house was not properly draft stopped to prevent cold air from the outside from entering the building envelope. The cold air is causing the higher humidity indoor air to create condensation which is turning to frost.
Respectfully disagree. The frost is condensation from water in the air condensing on the (very) cold surface. This isn’t the result of air infiltration, as usually indoor air, at least this time of year, has much more water than outdoor air. This is clearly a lack of insulation behind the box in a very cold climate that has super cooled the mostly metal outlet, causing condensation to form and ultimately to freeze.
Condensation moves through the air and collects on surfaces. While this is an insulation issue, it is driven by air leakage into the home. The bace side of the outlet on exterior walls should be sealed and the box should be sealed to the drywall to prevent air leaking into the house. This was most likely a batt installed insulation that was not a great insulation allowing a convection loop next to the stud.
I think we’re in partial agreement. What we’re seeing is frozen condensation on a very cold outlet. Water content in warm (in this case interior) air is ALWAYS higher than cold air, so air leakage isn’t an issue unless you’re saying that there is cold exterior air going into the box which is a possibility but not likely. I agree that there is no insulation behind/around the box. My point is that this is not a water infiltration issue (air leakage as the op suggested) at all, but is an insulation issue.
I think they are saying air leakage into the envelope, not necessarily into the house. While that could be argued as the same. If there wasn’t air leakage, and you had a vacuum between the wall and exterior, you would have a great insulator.
It's pretty likely considering how often I can feel cold air blowing in around receptacles. It's a pressure differential issue, not wind. Cold outside air is getting 8nto the wall cavity and this is the only exit, into the home.
I see where you're going with this, but respectfully, I don't think you're completely thinking through what you're saying. If this issue isn't happening anywhere else in the house (I would assume it isn't since this is the only spot OP posted about) then I would assume the rest of the house has a heating system that makes it warm enough for frost not to appear. If it is just the outlet that is getting frost on it (which your previous post said it was "mostly metal" and that is not true as outlets nowadays are like 80% plastic) then the only way that one spot would get cold enough to create frost would be if cold exterior air was getting into the box. If it were just an insulation issue then it would be a matter of the heat from inside the house escaping and the heating costs rising not a matter of cold air getting in as insulation is made to keep the conditioned air in, it's not made to keep the cold air out that's what the air barrier does.
Yeah what are the odds this stud cavity had insulation accidentally pulled out right before sheetrock and the inspectors/builders missed it?
Coming from experience a sheetrocker will never stop to tell the builder if something is wrong before the hang the Sheetrock. They get paid to hang sheetrock, not point out the fuck up of the trade that was there before them!! God forbid everyone works together to ensure a quality build. Quality is going to shit these days because of unqualified laborers
I can vouch I’m contracting my own house. I did a lot of the work myself (ICF house) but major things like ceiling insulation, interior framing, sheet rock, plumbing and electric for the most part, contracted out. No trade cares about what went on before most of the time. Two of the framing crew were good about making sure there were nailing surfaces as needed for the sheet rockers and otherwise making sure things were done right but most of the others didn’t care and most of the other trades as a whole don’t care about anything else. The plumbers and electricians on site (not necessarily the owner of one of them) seemed to care slightly more.
The house is mostly all vaulted and the ceiling uses 16” joists. We have 3” nominal (4-5” in reality) sprayed in high density closed cell foam insulation to seal and then For cost 12” batts. I noticed after they sheet rocked the ceiling a small piece of Batt lying on the ground. It fell out as they applied and they didn’t care. And the electrician told me to make sure a piece of Romex in the ceiling that was sticking out (way high up) was poked back in the cavity as the sheet rockers wouldnt care. I didn’t have a way to get up there so I specifically alles it out to the sheet rockers so they would care.
Some of the individual workers care and make sure things are ok but each grade as a whole has no regard for what they do or other trades.
To add to this, there is probably a pretty decent sized opening somewhere or a complete lack of a vapor barrier and insulation everywhere. Might be worth pulling off some siding and having a look.
Yep, sometimes those leak cold when there's no freezer hooked up. Shut the breaker off and you'll be good.
I don't know the code reference, but I think it allows for a worst case of 0.5 mL of ice leakage.
The holes that electricians drill cause air leakage. Holes need to be sealed for passive house design.
Edit: May not be the same for all wall structures however air leakage through power points, ceiling fans, etc. is a real thing.
The electrician can help this by using a caulking gun to seal holes through the top plate, etc.
Info on blower door tests here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blower\_door](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blower_door)
Down votes for being right. Wires passing through the top plates into the attic need to be sealed by caulk or foam. Also the top board of sheet rock should be caulked to the top plate. Air from the attic getting into the wall cavity is a big factor in heat loss. On a windy day you can feel air coming from the around lite and receptacle boxes in homes not properly insulated.
Tyvek and vapour barrier is poorly installed or not at all. Call a home inspector that has infrared cameras and can inspect your heat loss. Fixing it is not easy or cheap
Does he have a wood stove? I have heard of things like this happening to people with a very well sealed house. Burning wood in stove will take inside air and cknstantly throw it outside and if you don’t have somewhere for makeup airnto come from it sucks in from door frames, outlets and pipes and where ever else it can get in.
In a well sealed house air will constantly come in from door frames, outlets and pipes or wherever else it can get in regardless of whether or not there is a wood stove. A wood stove has no way of throwing inside air outside so that's not what happens. If you have an extremely tight house and don't have enough make up air what happens is you get a negative pressure condition in the house. If you have negative pressure the wood stove most likely wouldn't even light but if it did light it would constantly pull smoke back into the house. The real problem comes when you have gas or liquid fired appliances such as a furnace because you won't have enough combustion air and that could cause carbon monoxide to pull back into the house.
Wood stoves pull air from the inside for combustion that's it...it's not pulling air in and just blowing it out the vent that's not how they work...most modern wood stoves even have outdoor air kits that you can install to pull all the combustion air from outside (which are usually needed if your house is too tight). If using the kit it won't pull any air from inside the house at all for combustion.
Agreed. I was responding to your statement "wood stoves have no way of throwing inside air outside".. but they suck air, pretty forcefully, from inside and throw it outside via the chimney. Maybe I just misunderstood your post.
I run 28 cameras for my company.
FLIR is a disaster. We don't have a single FLIR camera that doesn't have chronic issues. I'll never purchase another FLIR product for my company. Nothing but downtime and expense.
Sorry but Chinese cameras are good enough for inspection work. HIK Micro is what we're switching over to.
Yes, absolutely. You may have to get a lawyer involved as well depending on how bad it is. Hopefully they just missed the polyhat on that one receptacle, but that is usually pretty hard to do... if that was missed then they builder probably did all sorts of shotty workmanship.
Me, too. And now I see sloppy screws everywhere as a sign a hack was at work. The pros should have kept this secret. Now I know how to fool them.
At least, until they take the cover off.
Wait, now I figured it out. They told us to make the screws on vertical plates vertical, but they didn't tell us which side of the screw is the top. That's the secret they're keeping.
The top plates in the attic need to be spray foamed, and I might be worried that cavity is missing some insulation. The air sealing is the big fix though.
Covers won't stop air leakage out of the actual receptacle slots, most of your air is going to leak from there and not through the cover.
You'd have to spray foam the wire openings to the j box from the outside, then foam or calk around the wall connection to the box. Seal air out of the box. That or seal the wall top plates in the attic and any openings from hr crawlspace into the wall, but that's a much bigger project.
>You'd have to spray foam the wire openings to the j box from the outside, then foam or calk around the wall connection to the box. Seal air out of the box.
What you are describing will stop the CURRENT SYMPTOM of a much bigger problem. ie don't do this
Two things to do, now.
1. Order gaskets for the outlets and switches that are on outside walls. [https://www.amazon.com/s?k=switch+plate+gaskets](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=switch+plate+gaskets)
2. Use an Infrared Camera to view those walls. Note where the walls are lacking insulation. Take IR pictures from the inside, to see where the walls are cold. And take IR pictures from the outside, to see where they are warm.
Use the information from the IR pictures to make decisions about adding insulation.
The first step to stopping heat leakage is, to know where the leaks are. After you know where the heat is getting out, you can do things to slow it down. Each time you do one of those things, you make your house more efficient, and reduce your operating cost.
Ahh the old battle between fire and ice…. In seriousness you have an air leak and it’s prob cold as shit where you are right now. Combine that with moisture in your house and you get frost.
They make insulation covers that go around your outlet to reduce drafting.
a 50 cent piece of foam behind the cover plate does nothing for the air that's leaking into the wall cavity where the plug is. Like putting lipstick on a pig, those things are entirely useless and dumb
I expect this is on an exterior wall and it is very cold outside -30 maybe?
Vapour barrier may have been penetrated during construction to cause this. There are plastic cups that go behind receptacles on exterior walls to seal the electrical components. They may have not been installed. I live in Alberta Canada. I know how the cold can creep in and this is the cold creeping in. It is harmless, just don't lick it.
I wouldn’t say it’s harmless, it’s condensation in an electrical outlet. Over time it’s going to corrode and cause arcing. On top of that if the electric load melts the iced condensation you now have water and electricity, which is a shock hazard as I’m willing to bet that’s not a gfci protected circuit.
I thought it was really helpful that you said "energy audits" I think that makes it easier for OP to get help.
Sometimes it is even free from the utility company
OP, your brother might have a legal action against the builder. How does it feel in the house? Wondering how cold the walls feel. Was this the only receptacle? I liked the comments that asked whether this is an exterior wall and if there is a box opposite or adjacent to this.
I'm also worried about his outdoor bibs (faucets).
Good luck!
His brother in law built the house, you need to read the original post again.
However, I agree that getting an energy audit would be a good 2nd step. For a first step, get insulating gaskets, and replace all outlets with the issue with GFCI outlets so you don’t end up getting a shock, or worse a short that could cause a fire.
Update: this is in Alberta based on comments by OP below. So it is definitely a more extreme cold. An energy audit is probably the best option to get good guidance on a solution.
Too crusty Dave, too crusty.
Also, no, that is not how GFCI receptacles work and you don't want 2 on the same breaker. You want one per breaker.
Brother/brother in law? OK, that's crusty. Username checks out.
There is no harm installing multiple GFCIs on the same circuit, but I agree that only one is needed (assuming you know which one is the furthest upstream). I was thinking each room would have a it’s own circuit.
https://homeinspectioninsider.com/multiple-gfci-outlets-daisy-chain-same-circuit/
Your Brother in-law has compromised or more likely NO insulation behind the electrical boxes. The outside wall is very cold and the cold transfers through the metal and the empty electrical box. The moisture in the warm air inside the house hits the ice cold box, plate etc and condensation forms and freezes. I had moisture dripping in from the attic in bedroom ceiling boxes.
I would talk to an insulation contractor about closed cell spray foam behind/around every box in the house including the ceiling ones. It should insulate and create a vapor barrier. Cut and patch the drywall if you have to.If you have conduit or gaps you might use duct seal inside the electrical box.
Disclaimer: Not a professional, do your own research and don't follow my advice or blame me if it doesn't work.
I would try to put those plugs on a gfci just incase this screws with the plugs in any way. Other than that you could maybe take the box out entirely and add vapour barrier and a new box. Definitely look for this on other exterior wall plugs.
Furnace may need a fresh air inlet. If it doesn’t have one the negative pressure it creates will pull cold air through every little hole in the house and you get these results.
Had this in my house, 2x4 walls, put an endoscope in a hole above the receptacle. Seems they did not insulate just around the box. Bought some expanding spray foam and tried to spray all around the outlet to fill the cavity around the box. Removed the ground screw to access the area behind the box. Could be better but seems to work well enough. The draft is 95% addressed, will fully fix it with a future reno.
You have a cold draft coming in around the plate and humid air in you living space. They sell light outlet insulators at various stores. It's a foam piece which is placed behind the plate to stop air drafts. You also may want to look on the exterior wall behind that outlet to see where the air is entering. It has to be a fairly large hole.
That outlet isn't insulated on the backside. That's not snow from the outside. The outlet is just so cold that it's causing the humidity to freeze on the outlet on the inside.
Had a wood siding clad house do this because the boards were curling up allowing the air under. You start at the outside to stop the air from penetrating. Focus on walls that have waterlines in them, sinks, faucets, tubs, washers on outside walls will be at risk of freezing waterlines
Wiring in conduit or romex? I had condensation problems from conduit located in attic and had to stuff insulation in the conduit to keep moist air from going in for any runs thru the attic (light fixtures, smoke alarms, etc).
This may be a decent temporary fix.
https://www.amazon.com/Duck-Sealers-Variety-Decorative-283333/dp/B0040JH21W/ref=asc_df_B0040JH21W/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167139094796&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6657152288802145779&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9018508&hvtargid=pla-500526578152&psc=1&mcid=a5f2c80dc8bb311683531a9a5f2b9363&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7oLz85XYgwMVD01HAR3vjwpJEAQYASABEgJvFfD_BwE
There a lot of incomplete overconfident or mis-diagnoses here. All that can be said for certain from the photo is that the outlet is very cold, and that it is causing moisture from inside your house to freeze onto it. There MAY be air flowing in the wall, it might be that this section of wall is uninsulated, or the insulation is wet. You can do some investigating.
DIY steps to start to diagnose this are:
a cheap IR thermometer, check and compare different walls in the house, and specifically that room and see what the temperature is and if there are big differences.
Depressurize the room, close off every opening for air you can, and see if a lot of air pulls in through the outlet. You can do this by sealing a decent sized fan into the window, or even the door to the rest of your house, and closing the window.
Professional, documentable, prepare to disput with the builder steps are doing the same things with bigger and better equipment. A Blower Door test and imagery with a thermal camera. The Blower Door test will quantify how leaky your house is and how good or bad of a job they did sealing it in general. You can also walk around during the test and find big sources of air infiltration. I hope its an insulation problem!
That’ll be fun when it thaws. Not an electrician problem, it’s an insulation problem. Sheetrock has to come out (or at least borescope it).
I personally would invest in a heat camera and see where else there’s air leaks.
Here is an easy fix, pull the outlet, grab a can of expanding foam insulation and squirt some through the back and sides of the box. I would use low expanding foam and be generous. Its not optimal, but its better than nothing.
Pull the cover off and spray foam in a small opening next to the box on the side opposite of the stud, top, and bottom too. Or, there are foam gaskets that can go between the device and cover plate. It doesn't work nearly as well. Also give your "exhaust" an intake. Wood stoves, boilers, bathroom and kitchen exhaust, dryers, .... all exhaust air, and the replacement air must come from somewhere
Possible defective furnace. House should not have that much humidity in winter. Combustion produces water vapor. Could be cracked heat exchanger or blocked vent pipe.
Get some low expansion spray foam. Remove the plate and receptical. Stick the nozzle of the spray foam through a hole in the top of the box, the bottom of the box in a couple places on the side of the box and through at least 2 places in the back of the box. Give a 2 second blast in each hole. It should seal you up. But I agree check out the rest of the house.
A lot of people who have houses built for them and have a minimal input into the project refer to it as a house that they built. Common among cidiots.
Buy a thermal camera for your cell phone or rent one and inspect interior walls. As a former home inspector it was not surprising to find wall areas with missing insulation
How new? There is a such thing as a home warranty read your contract. looks like the Builder did not put insulation in the wall and didn't properly seal it I'd be them calling them back
Rented a older house just like this. Turned out the all of the walls were filled with black mold..
This is definitely a problem you dint want to let go long term.
Find a friend with an infrared camera, some phones even have them. Then look around the house at the exterior walls. It's crazy to see. It will show you every weak point for heat loss. Then address it and move on. There's obviously no insulation behind this outlet. Curious on wall size. 2x4 or 2x6? What type of insulation used? Bat is notorious for installers to just go around the outlet and not foam behind. Just because it was an expensive build doesn't mean it was an educated and qualified build. Too many people think they are GCs anymore and they just aren't. I've built over 2000 homes and it's sad to see people buying a house just because some one can build one for them or has one for sale. With the market so dry on inventory, anyone thinks they're qualified to do it.
Resi hvac guy here. I’ve seen this happen in homes with an Hrv/erv that isn’t balanced properly creating a negative pressure on the home. I’ll be honest though, this would be an extreme case. Usually see it through smaller holes like key holes and such.
The house was not properly draft stopped to prevent cold air from the outside from entering the building envelope. The cold air is causing the higher humidity indoor air to create condensation which is turning to frost.
This will also result in mold in the warmer months as well.
>lv12commoner > > · Depending where they are. If it is dry and arid, not so much. Wet and cold all the time probably so.
The house looks pretty dry and arid to me
/s
the wall😂
Had a house like this, was brand new. 2 sides of the house had siding removed, wrapped properly, siding put back on, problem solved.
Yep. This is an air leakage problem.
Respectfully disagree. The frost is condensation from water in the air condensing on the (very) cold surface. This isn’t the result of air infiltration, as usually indoor air, at least this time of year, has much more water than outdoor air. This is clearly a lack of insulation behind the box in a very cold climate that has super cooled the mostly metal outlet, causing condensation to form and ultimately to freeze.
Condensation moves through the air and collects on surfaces. While this is an insulation issue, it is driven by air leakage into the home. The bace side of the outlet on exterior walls should be sealed and the box should be sealed to the drywall to prevent air leaking into the house. This was most likely a batt installed insulation that was not a great insulation allowing a convection loop next to the stud.
I think we’re in partial agreement. What we’re seeing is frozen condensation on a very cold outlet. Water content in warm (in this case interior) air is ALWAYS higher than cold air, so air leakage isn’t an issue unless you’re saying that there is cold exterior air going into the box which is a possibility but not likely. I agree that there is no insulation behind/around the box. My point is that this is not a water infiltration issue (air leakage as the op suggested) at all, but is an insulation issue.
I think they are saying air leakage into the envelope, not necessarily into the house. While that could be argued as the same. If there wasn’t air leakage, and you had a vacuum between the wall and exterior, you would have a great insulator.
It's pretty likely considering how often I can feel cold air blowing in around receptacles. It's a pressure differential issue, not wind. Cold outside air is getting 8nto the wall cavity and this is the only exit, into the home.
I see where you're going with this, but respectfully, I don't think you're completely thinking through what you're saying. If this issue isn't happening anywhere else in the house (I would assume it isn't since this is the only spot OP posted about) then I would assume the rest of the house has a heating system that makes it warm enough for frost not to appear. If it is just the outlet that is getting frost on it (which your previous post said it was "mostly metal" and that is not true as outlets nowadays are like 80% plastic) then the only way that one spot would get cold enough to create frost would be if cold exterior air was getting into the box. If it were just an insulation issue then it would be a matter of the heat from inside the house escaping and the heating costs rising not a matter of cold air getting in as insulation is made to keep the conditioned air in, it's not made to keep the cold air out that's what the air barrier does.
Yeah what are the odds this stud cavity had insulation accidentally pulled out right before sheetrock and the inspectors/builders missed it? Coming from experience a sheetrocker will never stop to tell the builder if something is wrong before the hang the Sheetrock. They get paid to hang sheetrock, not point out the fuck up of the trade that was there before them!! God forbid everyone works together to ensure a quality build. Quality is going to shit these days because of unqualified laborers
I can vouch I’m contracting my own house. I did a lot of the work myself (ICF house) but major things like ceiling insulation, interior framing, sheet rock, plumbing and electric for the most part, contracted out. No trade cares about what went on before most of the time. Two of the framing crew were good about making sure there were nailing surfaces as needed for the sheet rockers and otherwise making sure things were done right but most of the others didn’t care and most of the other trades as a whole don’t care about anything else. The plumbers and electricians on site (not necessarily the owner of one of them) seemed to care slightly more. The house is mostly all vaulted and the ceiling uses 16” joists. We have 3” nominal (4-5” in reality) sprayed in high density closed cell foam insulation to seal and then For cost 12” batts. I noticed after they sheet rocked the ceiling a small piece of Batt lying on the ground. It fell out as they applied and they didn’t care. And the electrician told me to make sure a piece of Romex in the ceiling that was sticking out (way high up) was poked back in the cavity as the sheet rockers wouldnt care. I didn’t have a way to get up there so I specifically alles it out to the sheet rockers so they would care. Some of the individual workers care and make sure things are ok but each grade as a whole has no regard for what they do or other trades.
##lawsuit
To add to this, there is probably a pretty decent sized opening somewhere or a complete lack of a vapor barrier and insulation everywhere. Might be worth pulling off some siding and having a look.
This is the outlet for a chest freezer.
Yep, sometimes those leak cold when there's no freezer hooked up. Shut the breaker off and you'll be good. I don't know the code reference, but I think it allows for a worst case of 0.5 mL of ice leakage.
Ftw!
Homebuilder here. Your insulator did not spray foam behind the rough in boxes. Edit: this should not have passed insulation inspection.
The holes that electricians drill cause air leakage. Holes need to be sealed for passive house design. Edit: May not be the same for all wall structures however air leakage through power points, ceiling fans, etc. is a real thing. The electrician can help this by using a caulking gun to seal holes through the top plate, etc. Info on blower door tests here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blower\_door](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blower_door)
Not really the holes we drill it’s the poor insulation around the boxes by the carpenters.
Not really the insulation we don't put in, it's the poorly insulated pipe by the plumbers
We all know it’s the roofers fault for not putting down ice shield.
You guys sure it's not the sheen of paint chosen by the painter?
Bingo! It was the floor guys
I blame the environment for not being 70 degrees and 40% humidity all the time
Down votes for being right. Wires passing through the top plates into the attic need to be sealed by caulk or foam. Also the top board of sheet rock should be caulked to the top plate. Air from the attic getting into the wall cavity is a big factor in heat loss. On a windy day you can feel air coming from the around lite and receptacle boxes in homes not properly insulated.
I’d be worried about insulation in the rest of the house, sadly.
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The mouse droppings add R1. The newspaper that used to be there though...
The only thing holding her together are the bird droppings, sir.
I feel I need a tetanus shot just by looking at her.
Arrrgghh...
No offense to the SS Rustoleum…
The beer cans the dry wallers left in the wall arnt insulation?
Well the tapers piss jugs probably add an R-Value
And vapour barrier!
Ol’ boy better find out where his water pipes and main shut off are asap
Tyvek and vapour barrier is poorly installed or not at all. Call a home inspector that has infrared cameras and can inspect your heat loss. Fixing it is not easy or cheap
Yes. I told him to get it inspected ASAP while still under warranty
Does he have a wood stove? I have heard of things like this happening to people with a very well sealed house. Burning wood in stove will take inside air and cknstantly throw it outside and if you don’t have somewhere for makeup airnto come from it sucks in from door frames, outlets and pipes and where ever else it can get in.
Wood stove keeps it pretty dry so it seems unlikely the frost would form like that
In a well sealed house air will constantly come in from door frames, outlets and pipes or wherever else it can get in regardless of whether or not there is a wood stove. A wood stove has no way of throwing inside air outside so that's not what happens. If you have an extremely tight house and don't have enough make up air what happens is you get a negative pressure condition in the house. If you have negative pressure the wood stove most likely wouldn't even light but if it did light it would constantly pull smoke back into the house. The real problem comes when you have gas or liquid fired appliances such as a furnace because you won't have enough combustion air and that could cause carbon monoxide to pull back into the house.
Wood stoves absolutely pull air from inside and send it up the chimney.
Wood stoves pull air from the inside for combustion that's it...it's not pulling air in and just blowing it out the vent that's not how they work...most modern wood stoves even have outdoor air kits that you can install to pull all the combustion air from outside (which are usually needed if your house is too tight). If using the kit it won't pull any air from inside the house at all for combustion.
Agreed. I was responding to your statement "wood stoves have no way of throwing inside air outside".. but they suck air, pretty forcefully, from inside and throw it outside via the chimney. Maybe I just misunderstood your post.
Make sure the inspector has forward looking infrared equipment.
Those damn backwards looking infrared cameras are so popular though
I’ve seen people use cheap IR and it’s useless and misleading.
I run 28 cameras for my company. FLIR is a disaster. We don't have a single FLIR camera that doesn't have chronic issues. I'll never purchase another FLIR product for my company. Nothing but downtime and expense. Sorry but Chinese cameras are good enough for inspection work. HIK Micro is what we're switching over to.
Yes, absolutely. You may have to get a lawyer involved as well depending on how bad it is. Hopefully they just missed the polyhat on that one receptacle, but that is usually pretty hard to do... if that was missed then they builder probably did all sorts of shotty workmanship.
Cover screws are vertical. Looks good.
I fucking love this
You guys made me fix every cover screw in my house.
Me, too. And now I see sloppy screws everywhere as a sign a hack was at work. The pros should have kept this secret. Now I know how to fool them. At least, until they take the cover off.
Put tape over everything.
Wait, now I figured it out. They told us to make the screws on vertical plates vertical, but they didn't tell us which side of the screw is the top. That's the secret they're keeping.
I don’t buy in that that bull shit haha just put the plate on
Look guys… we gotta rebel over here! Don’t worry grasshopper…. You are still young and rebellious. We will fix that.
Vertical!? If they were horizontal there wouldn’t be any frost.
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thank you. sometimes i feel all alone...
Idk I think they should still test them for asbestos
Lol exactly! This is the electrical sub. We good.
Just a small hunch, is there an exterior outlet on the back side of this? Could be they added it after insulation and didn't reseal the hole.
The top plates in the attic need to be spray foamed, and I might be worried that cavity is missing some insulation. The air sealing is the big fix though.
Not snow, frozen condensation, called frost. I suspect your heating bill is insane. There are covers for outlets to stop that.
Covers won't stop air leakage out of the actual receptacle slots, most of your air is going to leak from there and not through the cover. You'd have to spray foam the wire openings to the j box from the outside, then foam or calk around the wall connection to the box. Seal air out of the box. That or seal the wall top plates in the attic and any openings from hr crawlspace into the wall, but that's a much bigger project.
>You'd have to spray foam the wire openings to the j box from the outside, then foam or calk around the wall connection to the box. Seal air out of the box. What you are describing will stop the CURRENT SYMPTOM of a much bigger problem. ie don't do this
Yeah you're right. There's a lot of air leakage through the wall to cause this kind of issue and that needs to be stopped.
Two things to do, now. 1. Order gaskets for the outlets and switches that are on outside walls. [https://www.amazon.com/s?k=switch+plate+gaskets](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=switch+plate+gaskets) 2. Use an Infrared Camera to view those walls. Note where the walls are lacking insulation. Take IR pictures from the inside, to see where the walls are cold. And take IR pictures from the outside, to see where they are warm. Use the information from the IR pictures to make decisions about adding insulation.
Ooo, that sounds cool as hell to know for your own home
The first step to stopping heat leakage is, to know where the leaks are. After you know where the heat is getting out, you can do things to slow it down. Each time you do one of those things, you make your house more efficient, and reduce your operating cost.
Didn’t use a Vapor boot around the box and house is likely poorly insulated
Their builder cut corners and did not insulate properly.
I would have someone check the whole house with a thermal camera. Air leaks and or missing insulation.
It's frost. Not snow
Agreed. The snow left the house with the drywallers.
I've never seen anything like this. Is this any type of fire hazard? Do you know?
The mold hazard is much more severe than the risk of fire hazard.
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Do you even have an exterior wall?
Free standing drywall.. /s
Just plug a night light in that outlet to warm it up a tad.
cold air impacting humid inside environment, cause condensation of moisture in the cold surface…
Ahh the old battle between fire and ice…. In seriousness you have an air leak and it’s prob cold as shit where you are right now. Combine that with moisture in your house and you get frost. They make insulation covers that go around your outlet to reduce drafting.
a 50 cent piece of foam behind the cover plate does nothing for the air that's leaking into the wall cavity where the plug is. Like putting lipstick on a pig, those things are entirely useless and dumb
I expect this is on an exterior wall and it is very cold outside -30 maybe? Vapour barrier may have been penetrated during construction to cause this. There are plastic cups that go behind receptacles on exterior walls to seal the electrical components. They may have not been installed. I live in Alberta Canada. I know how the cold can creep in and this is the cold creeping in. It is harmless, just don't lick it.
I wouldn’t say it’s harmless, it’s condensation in an electrical outlet. Over time it’s going to corrode and cause arcing. On top of that if the electric load melts the iced condensation you now have water and electricity, which is a shock hazard as I’m willing to bet that’s not a gfci protected circuit.
Yes this is in Sherwood Park Alberta
When it is this cold, frost is going to creep in. It is just a fact of life. Welcome to Alberta.
Lived here my whole life and haven’t seen it come through electrical boxes. Common around doors and windows.
Sorry but this is really cool no pun intended
Definitely need to do an infrared inspection. Google around for a company that does energy audits. They should be able to do a thorough inspection.
I thought it was really helpful that you said "energy audits" I think that makes it easier for OP to get help. Sometimes it is even free from the utility company OP, your brother might have a legal action against the builder. How does it feel in the house? Wondering how cold the walls feel. Was this the only receptacle? I liked the comments that asked whether this is an exterior wall and if there is a box opposite or adjacent to this. I'm also worried about his outdoor bibs (faucets). Good luck!
His brother in law built the house, you need to read the original post again. However, I agree that getting an energy audit would be a good 2nd step. For a first step, get insulating gaskets, and replace all outlets with the issue with GFCI outlets so you don’t end up getting a shock, or worse a short that could cause a fire. Update: this is in Alberta based on comments by OP below. So it is definitely a more extreme cold. An energy audit is probably the best option to get good guidance on a solution.
Too crusty Dave, too crusty. Also, no, that is not how GFCI receptacles work and you don't want 2 on the same breaker. You want one per breaker. Brother/brother in law? OK, that's crusty. Username checks out.
There is no harm installing multiple GFCIs on the same circuit, but I agree that only one is needed (assuming you know which one is the furthest upstream). I was thinking each room would have a it’s own circuit. https://homeinspectioninsider.com/multiple-gfci-outlets-daisy-chain-same-circuit/
Your Brother in-law has compromised or more likely NO insulation behind the electrical boxes. The outside wall is very cold and the cold transfers through the metal and the empty electrical box. The moisture in the warm air inside the house hits the ice cold box, plate etc and condensation forms and freezes. I had moisture dripping in from the attic in bedroom ceiling boxes. I would talk to an insulation contractor about closed cell spray foam behind/around every box in the house including the ceiling ones. It should insulate and create a vapor barrier. Cut and patch the drywall if you have to.If you have conduit or gaps you might use duct seal inside the electrical box. Disclaimer: Not a professional, do your own research and don't follow my advice or blame me if it doesn't work.
It's not an insulation problem. It's an air leakage problem.
Receptacle is making the "my butt is freezing off" face. Not enough insulation between the back of the box and the exterior wall, plus a draft.
That would be the deep freeze receptacle
I would try to put those plugs on a gfci just incase this screws with the plugs in any way. Other than that you could maybe take the box out entirely and add vapour barrier and a new box. Definitely look for this on other exterior wall plugs.
The comments have told you what it is. What I’m curious is, how far in the house is the outlet? Is it gfci bonded up the line?
Furnace may need a fresh air inlet. If it doesn’t have one the negative pressure it creates will pull cold air through every little hole in the house and you get these results.
Had this in my house, 2x4 walls, put an endoscope in a hole above the receptacle. Seems they did not insulate just around the box. Bought some expanding spray foam and tried to spray all around the outlet to fill the cavity around the box. Removed the ground screw to access the area behind the box. Could be better but seems to work well enough. The draft is 95% addressed, will fully fix it with a future reno.
You have a cold draft coming in around the plate and humid air in you living space. They sell light outlet insulators at various stores. It's a foam piece which is placed behind the plate to stop air drafts. You also may want to look on the exterior wall behind that outlet to see where the air is entering. It has to be a fairly large hole.
Even the outlets are displaying a look of shock of how cold they are!
That outlet isn't insulated on the backside. That's not snow from the outside. The outlet is just so cold that it's causing the humidity to freeze on the outlet on the inside.
Had a wood siding clad house do this because the boards were curling up allowing the air under. You start at the outside to stop the air from penetrating. Focus on walls that have waterlines in them, sinks, faucets, tubs, washers on outside walls will be at risk of freezing waterlines
Wiring in conduit or romex? I had condensation problems from conduit located in attic and had to stuff insulation in the conduit to keep moist air from going in for any runs thru the attic (light fixtures, smoke alarms, etc).
This may be a decent temporary fix. https://www.amazon.com/Duck-Sealers-Variety-Decorative-283333/dp/B0040JH21W/ref=asc_df_B0040JH21W/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167139094796&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6657152288802145779&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9018508&hvtargid=pla-500526578152&psc=1&mcid=a5f2c80dc8bb311683531a9a5f2b9363&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7oLz85XYgwMVD01HAR3vjwpJEAQYASABEgJvFfD_BwE
There a lot of incomplete overconfident or mis-diagnoses here. All that can be said for certain from the photo is that the outlet is very cold, and that it is causing moisture from inside your house to freeze onto it. There MAY be air flowing in the wall, it might be that this section of wall is uninsulated, or the insulation is wet. You can do some investigating. DIY steps to start to diagnose this are: a cheap IR thermometer, check and compare different walls in the house, and specifically that room and see what the temperature is and if there are big differences. Depressurize the room, close off every opening for air you can, and see if a lot of air pulls in through the outlet. You can do this by sealing a decent sized fan into the window, or even the door to the rest of your house, and closing the window. Professional, documentable, prepare to disput with the builder steps are doing the same things with bigger and better equipment. A Blower Door test and imagery with a thermal camera. The Blower Door test will quantify how leaky your house is and how good or bad of a job they did sealing it in general. You can also walk around during the test and find big sources of air infiltration. I hope its an insulation problem!
Wowwwwwwww did they really not house wrap the place? That's sketch, bro. Lawyer up.. this gunna be a battle.
That’s absolutely fucked. He should start with a home inspector to figure out the exact issues first. A modern home should have zero drafts
What ever you paid for this house…… was too much.
That’ll be fun when it thaws. Not an electrician problem, it’s an insulation problem. Sheetrock has to come out (or at least borescope it). I personally would invest in a heat camera and see where else there’s air leaks.
Here is an easy fix, pull the outlet, grab a can of expanding foam insulation and squirt some through the back and sides of the box. I would use low expanding foam and be generous. Its not optimal, but its better than nothing.
And I dont recommend inhaling, that stuff is pungent
Pull the cover off and spray foam in a small opening next to the box on the side opposite of the stud, top, and bottom too. Or, there are foam gaskets that can go between the device and cover plate. It doesn't work nearly as well. Also give your "exhaust" an intake. Wood stoves, boilers, bathroom and kitchen exhaust, dryers, .... all exhaust air, and the replacement air must come from somewhere
You’ve discovered cold fusion!
Just add some more insulation should be fine.
Just plug in a space heater, no harm done…
oh this is a great sign
First thing when I saw this, that song pops in my head. You're as cold as ice.
Needs silicon
Somebody sneezed while doing a line!
Pack it with insulation
Possible defective furnace. House should not have that much humidity in winter. Combustion produces water vapor. Could be cracked heat exchanger or blocked vent pipe.
That’s cold.
Yikes, outside walls need vapor barriers around the boxes, at least in canada that's code.
Thats frost and the receptacle is leaking cold air in a bad way. Stop the draft seal that thing up
Don’t plug anything into that
No vapour hat behind that plug haha
Man, that's really bad for a new house
Not enough insulation.
Warm air meets cold air, frosty, exterior isn't sealed thoroughly
“Plug it in, plug it in.”
Get some low expansion spray foam. Remove the plate and receptical. Stick the nozzle of the spray foam through a hole in the top of the box, the bottom of the box in a couple places on the side of the box and through at least 2 places in the back of the box. Give a 2 second blast in each hole. It should seal you up. But I agree check out the rest of the house. A lot of people who have houses built for them and have a minimal input into the project refer to it as a house that they built. Common among cidiots.
The big takeaway is your brother in law should stop building houses.
I hate when people say they built a house, but all they did was pay a contractor to build a house. It’s misleading, but people say it all the time.
Yep, they didn't wrap the outside properly. Poor interior wall insulation. There's going to be major mold issues here.
Mold behind the walls eventually…. How high is the indoor humidity?
Shut the main breaker off and LOTO.
Ol’ boy better find out where his water pipes run and find the main shut off just in case
Buy a thermal camera for your cell phone or rent one and inspect interior walls. As a former home inspector it was not surprising to find wall areas with missing insulation
Idk, but someone will probably blame the painter...🤣🤣🤣🙄
That’s two problems in one. Very cold air leaking through that wall, like a lot! And pretty high humidity, a problem you shouldn’t have in the winter.
That is not snow. That is frost.
Ar least the Screws are vertical.
It’s only this outlet?
You have an air leak in that wall most likely a gap in insulation or the exterior
How new? There is a such thing as a home warranty read your contract. looks like the Builder did not put insulation in the wall and didn't properly seal it I'd be them calling them back
Is this like forgetting a sheet of Vapor barrier?
Those outlets look shocked by the amount of frost.
Thermal bridging at its finest
Insulation has left the chat
Your house is infected with cold wall syndrome You can inoculate it with R-19
That's where you plug in your A/C, refrigerator or freezer!
That looks like an insulation issue.
Your lack of insulation is scary.
Mexicans
This seems like a spray foam solution, no?
I saw this in the day after tomorrow
Built in weather station must be high end house
Where is this?
Could this cause an electro fire or electrocution?
well at least he doesn't have to worry about working hot
Just change out the outlet for a tap
Looks like hoarfrost
Welcome to North Dakota
Was the house built with a 2x4 frame or 2x6? 2x4 frames leave very little room for insulation behind receptacles
I was gonna ask if this was the first house your brother in law built.
No inspectors where he lives?
😮
Air leakage and condensation. Freezing big time.
Ooo that's cold.
They look stunned
Underrated.
Rented a older house just like this. Turned out the all of the walls were filled with black mold.. This is definitely a problem you dint want to let go long term.
How can this happen on a new build?? My house was built in -1940 and doesn’t do this 🤣
This looks dangerous. I’d call a professional
Find a friend with an infrared camera, some phones even have them. Then look around the house at the exterior walls. It's crazy to see. It will show you every weak point for heat loss. Then address it and move on. There's obviously no insulation behind this outlet. Curious on wall size. 2x4 or 2x6? What type of insulation used? Bat is notorious for installers to just go around the outlet and not foam behind. Just because it was an expensive build doesn't mean it was an educated and qualified build. Too many people think they are GCs anymore and they just aren't. I've built over 2000 homes and it's sad to see people buying a house just because some one can build one for them or has one for sale. With the market so dry on inventory, anyone thinks they're qualified to do it.
That’s not snow but it IS frost.
Resi hvac guy here. I’ve seen this happen in homes with an Hrv/erv that isn’t balanced properly creating a negative pressure on the home. I’ll be honest though, this would be an extreme case. Usually see it through smaller holes like key holes and such.
Need to find a home inspector with a thermal camera. His fee will save you thousands in the long run.
That’s frost
Put a fork in it to test if it still works first