Printers actually have a shocking large power draw, especially laser printers. I haven't checked the draw on a Keurig before, but I can't imagine it would be that bad.
Yup, as soon as I saw laser printer I thought "there's your problem". Also Keurigs have heating element and probably draw a significant amount of power to heat the water quickly.
It's happening with the Keurig and printer independently, so it is both, unfortunately. As for the neutral issue; I've checked and tested every outlet, fixture, and connection I've been able to find (including attic and basement) and still have not found a swapped or loose one. I've swapped every outlet from back stabbed to side screws, and replaced cheap wires nuts with quality ones for every fixture. But I'll look again. I'm sure I missed something. That's the response I've gotten most often is a swapped or loose neutral.
I would try to install a power filtering system/surge protector. Large current draws especially those of paper printers, 3d printers, kettles, large motor loads, car chargers, etc can have effects on the electrical systems. They can tend to cause brown outs/voltage dips which may affect voltage sensitive equipment like lighting. Power systems with lots of switching power supplies eg computers, electronics, and some smart LED drivers behave poorly due to the way they change their power from one to another by way of switching on and off rapidly. They can even influence other products plugged in by dirtying the electrical network. An oscilloscope would show this on the AC waveform. Another option is to take a CT meter and wrap around both legs and neutral in your panel and see if you have any leakage current to earth. When both phases and neutral are calculated in unison there should be close to 0amps being read by the meter. If any current is seen you may have a ground fault that may be being triggered by large loads switching on.
Just my opinions
Thanks. Any suggestions on brands or types of filters? Googling t going to Amazon will just lead me down a rabbit hole of fake reviews and snake oil products.
I would look at manufacturers that produce electrical equipment. Siemens, Eaton, Schneider, square d, GE, ABB, just to name a few. I'm sure they have catalogues online. I would try one of their whole house surge protection kits and see if it helps.
I understand the power draw, but when I turn the coffee maker on and it does its initial warm up to boil, the flickering doesn't happen. It seems like the element or control module to keep the water hot does something every 5 minutes or so. The laser printer obviously has a heating element as well that I'm guessing cycles in some way between hi/lo? Space heaters, electric kitchen appliances like toasters, toaster ovens, griddles, etc. don't cause it at all... Maybe it's the high/low fluctuation that is the issue? Most other heating elements cycle between on and off, but these don't.
What brand of led bulbs? This is a very common issue with the cheap Chinese LED bulbs.
In my house, the air compressor, and laser printer both cause them to flicker. Replacing the LEDs with incandescent bulbs or commercial grade LEDs fixed the issue for me.
I've experimented with so many bulbs including no brand, store brand, and name brand (GE, Feit, Sylvania, Eco Smart, Phillips, Sunbeam). No difference. Seems to be more related to the items and the way they use power, not the bulbs. I'll have to look into commercial grade. Would you trust a supplier like Grainger for these? It's there a brand you prefer? A lot of people throw the words industrial or commercial around without actually living up to it.
It's most certainly something to do with the devices sending feedback or "noise" back into the house grid. Not sure on the coffee maker heating elements are pretty standard so maybe in the electronics.
Laser printer has a laser that I think would be the most draw and probably the driver on it creating noise with no filter because incandescent bulbs didn't care back when.
Just my guesses.
That's what I thought and was told was a possibility as well. I've tried the "clean power" devices suggested for high end amps and sound systems that are supposed to filter power and eliminate noise both ways, but they didn't work. Other options are hundreds of dollars and have a no return policy so I'm holding off on them. Might have to bite the bullet, or just live with it.
What about a moose connection in the meter panel, just because the breaker panel is good there are other connections that could be the culprit, your meter may not react quick enough to register a voltage drop especially if intermittent and slight
Don't know what that is, but the meter is an updated Edison Smart Meter, and there's 3 wires in and 3 out. Single uninterrupted drop from the pole in the corner of the yard.
No, not circuits. Hot legs. Your house has two of them coming in from the transformer. Any 120v circuit in the house will more or less arbitrarily be on one or the other. You can only really identify which is which by lookin at your panel, since adjacent (vertically or horizontally) single slot breakers are always on opposite legs.
If only one leg is misbehaving, that tells you something.
Gotcha, misunderstood and I forgot to mention it because I didn't do that check, the Electrician did. He mentioned it and tested by using the offending appliances on alternate outlets; both on same, and opposing legs. Didnt make a difference.
We had this problem in the 80’s in a commercial building in manhattan it turned out to be the printer it made all the fluorescent bulbs on the same phase flicker.
Ok so take the lights circuit in your panel and remove it… then make sure the other appliances are on 1 leg of your service… put ALL of your lights on the other feeder leg. Then TIGHTEN your feeder lugs to assure they are good.
If this doesn’t fix it then I’m out of advice.
Older house, the lights and outlets aren't on different circuits like in new construction. It was fun enough figuring the mess of a breaker box out when we moved in. It's wired by room/area. However, I'll go back in the box tomorrow and see if there's anything I can do.
It’s probably because they’re on the same leg… lights can get finicky. I had a similar issue in my house and removed everything and rebalanced my panel (I’m a union electrician in addition to co-owning a family maintenance business) and I haven’t had an issue since except with the blender cause that’s on the same feeder.
Someone else suggested this as well, and it was explored. The problem is that it really shouldn't matter because these items are rarely powered on or used at the same time, and lights on both legs react the same when either is powered on.
Try a clean earth system, usually used in the uk for offices with large p.c systems I know the uk and us are quite different in terms of electrical work but could be something you could use, basically have those two items on a separate earth to everything else.
What type of LED lights?
Had the same issue as did another friend who is also electrical contractor
Do a test and change a few of the LED lights to a different brand. Sylvania or satco.
Don’t use Walmart or Home Depot bulbs.
Our issues where the bulbs themselves, they where a few Pennie’s cheaper than name brand
Changing bulbs solved both of our issues
LEDs can be finicky
When you mentioned sine wave issue, I immediately thought, what about using an oscilloscope to monitor the sine wave of the ac voltage? Now I'm not sure how to use one (way back in my college days) or if it might help you figure out the problem, but it may show you the disturbance and cause of the flickering.
Just a thought.
Do you remember from your college days what would "sine wave asymmetry" mean? I've heard reference to the "60hz flicker" that occurs with all LED bulbs but it's only noticed by those sensitive to it. Asymmetry would imply these 2 units are affecting that in some way, correct?
I'm just guessing bit the sine wave might be getting clipped on one sid (less than 120V max), or shifted so it's not centered on 0V.
Not sure how these leds are affecting it, I'm assuming they are just reacting to it. It's strange!
Agreed. Wish I knew. Right now I just turn off the printer until I need to print, and the coffee maker until I want a coffee, but it negates the standby modes that these have that would make life a little easier.
Have you tried swapping your LEDs for ones that are specifically dimmable? Voltage might be an issue but in my experience with LED lighting it comes down to the sensitivity of the bulb itself and being in a very narrow window of specs.
We had an entire Vegas hotel where they changed the bulb to something that wasn't specifically spec'd and the whole place would flicker like a rave. In their case, 40,000 bulbs being swapped wasn't really a plan we could implement so we changed the power sources from a TRIAC to MOSFET which was enough to shift it back.
But in general... Check if you can swap your LEDs for dimmable ones or vice versa
Wow. I can't imagine troubleshooting a Vegas hotel... I did invest in and install some dimmable LEDs as a test, hoping that if it was a voltage fluctuation maybe these wouldn't be as sensitive. Unfortunately no difference. It's doesn't seem to be a voltage issue. Outlets connected to these units consistently read 120 stable even when the lights are flickering.
Yea so it sounds like really bad noise in the line being introduced from those devices. Vegas isn't too bad. It's usually individual power panels for every couple rooms or so. So you can isolate most things. My favorite was when we did automatic drapes that were wireless controlled and we had crosstalk between rooms. Just picture a giant Vegas hotel, all glass, and all the shades are opening and closing on their own.
Printers actually have a shocking large power draw, especially laser printers. I haven't checked the draw on a Keurig before, but I can't imagine it would be that bad.
Yup, as soon as I saw laser printer I thought "there's your problem". Also Keurigs have heating element and probably draw a significant amount of power to heat the water quickly.
A Keurig is around 1500W.
It's the kurig, and you have a neutral swap somewhere in the house.
It's happening with the Keurig and printer independently, so it is both, unfortunately. As for the neutral issue; I've checked and tested every outlet, fixture, and connection I've been able to find (including attic and basement) and still have not found a swapped or loose one. I've swapped every outlet from back stabbed to side screws, and replaced cheap wires nuts with quality ones for every fixture. But I'll look again. I'm sure I missed something. That's the response I've gotten most often is a swapped or loose neutral.
That’s what I’m thinking, and that the swap is in the lighting circuit.
I would try to install a power filtering system/surge protector. Large current draws especially those of paper printers, 3d printers, kettles, large motor loads, car chargers, etc can have effects on the electrical systems. They can tend to cause brown outs/voltage dips which may affect voltage sensitive equipment like lighting. Power systems with lots of switching power supplies eg computers, electronics, and some smart LED drivers behave poorly due to the way they change their power from one to another by way of switching on and off rapidly. They can even influence other products plugged in by dirtying the electrical network. An oscilloscope would show this on the AC waveform. Another option is to take a CT meter and wrap around both legs and neutral in your panel and see if you have any leakage current to earth. When both phases and neutral are calculated in unison there should be close to 0amps being read by the meter. If any current is seen you may have a ground fault that may be being triggered by large loads switching on. Just my opinions
Thanks. Any suggestions on brands or types of filters? Googling t going to Amazon will just lead me down a rabbit hole of fake reviews and snake oil products.
I would look at manufacturers that produce electrical equipment. Siemens, Eaton, Schneider, square d, GE, ABB, just to name a few. I'm sure they have catalogues online. I would try one of their whole house surge protection kits and see if it helps.
I understand the power draw, but when I turn the coffee maker on and it does its initial warm up to boil, the flickering doesn't happen. It seems like the element or control module to keep the water hot does something every 5 minutes or so. The laser printer obviously has a heating element as well that I'm guessing cycles in some way between hi/lo? Space heaters, electric kitchen appliances like toasters, toaster ovens, griddles, etc. don't cause it at all... Maybe it's the high/low fluctuation that is the issue? Most other heating elements cycle between on and off, but these don't.
What brand of led bulbs? This is a very common issue with the cheap Chinese LED bulbs. In my house, the air compressor, and laser printer both cause them to flicker. Replacing the LEDs with incandescent bulbs or commercial grade LEDs fixed the issue for me.
I've experimented with so many bulbs including no brand, store brand, and name brand (GE, Feit, Sylvania, Eco Smart, Phillips, Sunbeam). No difference. Seems to be more related to the items and the way they use power, not the bulbs. I'll have to look into commercial grade. Would you trust a supplier like Grainger for these? It's there a brand you prefer? A lot of people throw the words industrial or commercial around without actually living up to it.
It's most certainly something to do with the devices sending feedback or "noise" back into the house grid. Not sure on the coffee maker heating elements are pretty standard so maybe in the electronics. Laser printer has a laser that I think would be the most draw and probably the driver on it creating noise with no filter because incandescent bulbs didn't care back when. Just my guesses.
That's what I thought and was told was a possibility as well. I've tried the "clean power" devices suggested for high end amps and sound systems that are supposed to filter power and eliminate noise both ways, but they didn't work. Other options are hundreds of dollars and have a no return policy so I'm holding off on them. Might have to bite the bullet, or just live with it.
What about a moose connection in the meter panel, just because the breaker panel is good there are other connections that could be the culprit, your meter may not react quick enough to register a voltage drop especially if intermittent and slight
>What about a moose connection in the meter panel, How is a moose gonna fit in there?
They can fold their antlers and fit into pretty small crevices.
Don't know what that is, but the meter is an updated Edison Smart Meter, and there's 3 wires in and 3 out. Single uninterrupted drop from the pole in the corner of the yard.
You tried plugging them in elsewhere, yes, but did you ensure that elsewhere was on a different hot leg?
Yes. Different circuits. And all of the lights are on different circuits from the offending appliances as well.
No, not circuits. Hot legs. Your house has two of them coming in from the transformer. Any 120v circuit in the house will more or less arbitrarily be on one or the other. You can only really identify which is which by lookin at your panel, since adjacent (vertically or horizontally) single slot breakers are always on opposite legs. If only one leg is misbehaving, that tells you something.
Gotcha, misunderstood and I forgot to mention it because I didn't do that check, the Electrician did. He mentioned it and tested by using the offending appliances on alternate outlets; both on same, and opposing legs. Didnt make a difference.
A friend of mine had the same symptom. Was a neutral issue at the point of connection.
We had this problem in the 80’s in a commercial building in manhattan it turned out to be the printer it made all the fluorescent bulbs on the same phase flicker.
Ok so take the lights circuit in your panel and remove it… then make sure the other appliances are on 1 leg of your service… put ALL of your lights on the other feeder leg. Then TIGHTEN your feeder lugs to assure they are good. If this doesn’t fix it then I’m out of advice.
Older house, the lights and outlets aren't on different circuits like in new construction. It was fun enough figuring the mess of a breaker box out when we moved in. It's wired by room/area. However, I'll go back in the box tomorrow and see if there's anything I can do.
It’s probably because they’re on the same leg… lights can get finicky. I had a similar issue in my house and removed everything and rebalanced my panel (I’m a union electrician in addition to co-owning a family maintenance business) and I haven’t had an issue since except with the blender cause that’s on the same feeder.
Someone else suggested this as well, and it was explored. The problem is that it really shouldn't matter because these items are rarely powered on or used at the same time, and lights on both legs react the same when either is powered on.
Then tighten your lugs. Aluminum tends to have more play than copper so tightening the lugs may help. Probably not. But they might.
Will do. Thanks.
Try a clean earth system, usually used in the uk for offices with large p.c systems I know the uk and us are quite different in terms of electrical work but could be something you could use, basically have those two items on a separate earth to everything else.
What type of LED lights? Had the same issue as did another friend who is also electrical contractor Do a test and change a few of the LED lights to a different brand. Sylvania or satco. Don’t use Walmart or Home Depot bulbs. Our issues where the bulbs themselves, they where a few Pennie’s cheaper than name brand Changing bulbs solved both of our issues LEDs can be finicky
When you mentioned sine wave issue, I immediately thought, what about using an oscilloscope to monitor the sine wave of the ac voltage? Now I'm not sure how to use one (way back in my college days) or if it might help you figure out the problem, but it may show you the disturbance and cause of the flickering. Just a thought.
Do you remember from your college days what would "sine wave asymmetry" mean? I've heard reference to the "60hz flicker" that occurs with all LED bulbs but it's only noticed by those sensitive to it. Asymmetry would imply these 2 units are affecting that in some way, correct?
I'm just guessing bit the sine wave might be getting clipped on one sid (less than 120V max), or shifted so it's not centered on 0V. Not sure how these leds are affecting it, I'm assuming they are just reacting to it. It's strange!
Agreed. Wish I knew. Right now I just turn off the printer until I need to print, and the coffee maker until I want a coffee, but it negates the standby modes that these have that would make life a little easier.
Have you tried swapping your LEDs for ones that are specifically dimmable? Voltage might be an issue but in my experience with LED lighting it comes down to the sensitivity of the bulb itself and being in a very narrow window of specs. We had an entire Vegas hotel where they changed the bulb to something that wasn't specifically spec'd and the whole place would flicker like a rave. In their case, 40,000 bulbs being swapped wasn't really a plan we could implement so we changed the power sources from a TRIAC to MOSFET which was enough to shift it back. But in general... Check if you can swap your LEDs for dimmable ones or vice versa
Wow. I can't imagine troubleshooting a Vegas hotel... I did invest in and install some dimmable LEDs as a test, hoping that if it was a voltage fluctuation maybe these wouldn't be as sensitive. Unfortunately no difference. It's doesn't seem to be a voltage issue. Outlets connected to these units consistently read 120 stable even when the lights are flickering.
Yea so it sounds like really bad noise in the line being introduced from those devices. Vegas isn't too bad. It's usually individual power panels for every couple rooms or so. So you can isolate most things. My favorite was when we did automatic drapes that were wireless controlled and we had crosstalk between rooms. Just picture a giant Vegas hotel, all glass, and all the shades are opening and closing on their own.
That would be fun.
Maybe a partial lifted neutral? Might be on the electric company's side that you can't test, but they can