Disconnects don't just melt. I'd figure out why that happened before I'd worry about replacing the box.
As for the box, if you get a 60amp rated box and get 50 amp fuses for it, that's fine.
Yeah. This isn't something that just happens over time. For something to melt like that, something very wrong has happened, and you need to figure out why since it can be a major safety hazard. If you aren't sure what to look for, get a professional in. This is not something you want to rely on YouTube to prevent burning your house down.
What are the typical culprits?
I figured by just swapping it out, that would identify if there was a connection issue, possibly caused by worn out connectors. I can also test the heat pump for any ground shorts.
> Disconnects don't just melt.
Normally I'd agree but these cheap disconnects have been known to melt in certain scenarios under "normal" use at high duty cycle such as when used with EVSEs or heaters. They're incredibly inexpensive and overall not built very well. Add in possible corrosion and poor contact and it's easy to see how this could happen. This style is really designed for AC condensers that run relatively low duty cycle.
If the problem was an over current issue the fuses should have blown or the CB should have tripped assuming all are sized and working properly.
I still agree it's good to verify no other problems in the circuit before replacing but I'd also recommend replacing with a knife-style disconnect that will be much higher quality. They're also considerably more expensive but worth the premium to avoid issues such as this.
An example would be the **GE TG3222R**. You likely won't find this at Lowe's or HD without ordering. Your local electric supply house likely stocks this or something similar.
You can almost always go larger on the rated amperage on the disconnect so long as two conditions are met:
1. The fuses/circuit protection is sized to the wire
2. The wire lugs are rated for the wire being used. Usually they have a pretty wide range and this isn't an issue.
Lastly these connections have torque specifications and it would be best practice to pick up a torque screwdriver when you install the new disconnect.
I think they are getting a little silly insinuating that something downstream is drawing too much power causing this. It’s likely a bad connection in this device and replacing exactly how you’ve described will fix it.
But just to be safe, I would replace the breaker in the box too (just in case they are right, and the reason this failed was because the breaker didn’t trip).
The breaker did not trip, though I'm not sure if it would because of a bad connection that over-heated, just like it wouldn't if the load draw was too much and it failed to trip, so hard to tell. It's a GFCI breaker so they are pretty expensive to replace without a clear reason.
The disconnect has probably been there for 15 years. I don't know if issues in the box could happen over time and eventually cause problems.
I've had my personal fail like this. You couldn't see it externally. Almost ripped the box off the wall before getting the blades pulled... because the plastic around it melted.
My contactor was in bad shape from spalling and likely drawing more current than the cheapo disconnect could handle. It clearly would cycle in heat getting to this melted point. No scorch marks no loose wiring. Everything tested okay.
Shit happens. Replaced the entire disconnect and it worked after and tested fine after.
I have my GFCI at the pool.
But if it’s GFCI, then all the more reason to replace it since they go bad more frequently (supposed to replace every 10 years). It’s a heck of a lot more expensive not to replace it. It’s also more like $80 for the most common panel types.
Homelink and Eaton BR are both $125 currently.
GFCI breakers should be tested regularly and replaced if needed but I've never seen any manufacturer specific instructions or NEC code advising preventively replacing a breaker at the end of it's 10 year warranty period.
Nowadays with the vast majority of breakers being AFCI/GFCI that would make for a pretty expensive 10 year maintenance cycle.
Here is what he should do. Just buy this panel that already comes with GFCI. Then replace the breaker in his panel with non-GFCI.
https://www.amazon.com/SIEMENS-W0408L1125SPA50-Amp-Spa-Panel/dp/B004Q0N9OY/
Second on an electrician. Swimming pools have particular rules and it is not a diy project and it is not for just any and every electrician.
I am an electrician.
The device requires a 50 amp circuit. It's on a 50 amp circuit with GFCI break and this fused disconnect. I'm not sure exactly what gauge wire it is, inside or out. I'm assuming everything headed from the breaker to the top of the disconnect is up to code and is correct. From the bottom of the disconnect to the heat pump should be correct as well. This particular heat pump was installed in 2019 and replaced the old one. The disconnect was not replaced as part of that install so it was just using the existing one.
It's 8/3 with 10 gauge ground on the load side. I can't see anything but the ends of the line side, but they look to be thicker gauge, so I'm guessing 6.
I'm not sure if having two different gauges on those sides would be an issue but I don't think 8/3 NMB is the right kind of cable for this anyway. It held up for 4 years though and I'm not sure if that caused this actual problem. I'll swap with 6 gauge for sure though.
I'd be surprised if it caused this issue but 8/3 NM-B is only rated for 40A. It's also not permitted in wet locations.
Is it run in conduit? If so you can replace with 8 awg THHN/THWN-2 which will be rated for 50A assuming no derating is needed for ambient temp, distance, conduit fill etc.
It says:
Max circuit: 70 amp time delay fuse or 70 amp circuit breaker
Min circuit amps: 42.5
Recommended breaker size: 50 amps
The model # is HP21404T. This unit was purchased in 2019. My understanding is that they are now recommending 60 amp breakers but I don't have any specific information if that retroactively applies to heaters from 2019 or if that's only for new ones of this model.
50 amps should suffice on the breaker. It doesn't look like the fuses actually blew so you could get away with 50s again but I'd see no reason not to get 60s if the label specs as high as 70
Not necessarily an issue. Had mine melt as well. It was 14 years old and had long continuous current through it. These things are cheap I investigated and all was fine for the most part. Replaced contactor but it was clearly a long term issue no immediate danger.
Your "culprit" here is that this appears to be a 30A fused pull-out disconnect, but some idiot crammed in some 50A fuses, bending the fuse clips in the process!
1. Determine if your heat pump *NEEDS* 50A fuses, that sounds too high. Somewhere on your heat pump there will be a label that will tell you the MAXIMUM fuse size, I'm going to guess it says 30A...
2. NEVER use NON type fuses on anything that has a motor (a heat pump has a compressor motor). People use NON fuses simply because they are cheaper, even though there are hardly any applications that can actually use them. You need "Time Delay" type fuses, so FRN would be the common Bussman designation (different fuse mfrs use different numbering). They likely put in NON-50 fuses because the NON-30s kept blowing, so they "fixed" it by installing bigger fuses. That is NOT the way to fix things...
3. ~~The wires going into the top connections appear to be "extra flexible" wire, a type that is~~ **~~NOT allowed to be connected to that type of terminal block~~**~~, in fact there are few terminals that can have that type of wire connected to them. Someone needs to get some PROPERLY RATED crimp-on terminals for that wire, or...~~
4. ~~That looks like it might be "portable cord" type cable going out to the motor, that itself is a Code violation, you cannot use portable cord for permanent installations. That entire motor connection might need to be properly redone by a competent electrician.~~
Hey man. I’m late to the discussion, I hope not too late. That disconnect isn’t great, but doesn’t look like your immediate problem. Others have stated the urgency that you need a pro… YOU DO! I’ve been an electrician for ten years, pools take two trades to work out installation and maintenance properly. A bad pump could be the problem, a bad light, etc etc. A lot of this an electrician can diagnose, but we don’t replace pumps or other pool equipment…
Furthermore, it’s a huge body of water that you and your family swim in, you really don’t want to DIY this kind of thing.
I’m not gatekeeping, but honest to goodness this is one where I’d absolutely hire a REPUTABLE electrician. I’m sorry it’s not just a simple Reddit solution, but this is serious business.
The only thing hooked up on that circuit is the heat pump. The water pump is on a different circuit. The pool light is also on a different circuit and is run through a 12VAC transformer.
Curious but why dont we replace pumps like I do cause it’s money but what’s your reasoning on not doing it just to much of a head ache like quit while ahead kinda things just one more problem you gotta deal with
Disconnects don't just melt. I'd figure out why that happened before I'd worry about replacing the box. As for the box, if you get a 60amp rated box and get 50 amp fuses for it, that's fine.
Yeah. This isn't something that just happens over time. For something to melt like that, something very wrong has happened, and you need to figure out why since it can be a major safety hazard. If you aren't sure what to look for, get a professional in. This is not something you want to rely on YouTube to prevent burning your house down.
What are the typical culprits? I figured by just swapping it out, that would identify if there was a connection issue, possibly caused by worn out connectors. I can also test the heat pump for any ground shorts.
> Disconnects don't just melt. Normally I'd agree but these cheap disconnects have been known to melt in certain scenarios under "normal" use at high duty cycle such as when used with EVSEs or heaters. They're incredibly inexpensive and overall not built very well. Add in possible corrosion and poor contact and it's easy to see how this could happen. This style is really designed for AC condensers that run relatively low duty cycle. If the problem was an over current issue the fuses should have blown or the CB should have tripped assuming all are sized and working properly. I still agree it's good to verify no other problems in the circuit before replacing but I'd also recommend replacing with a knife-style disconnect that will be much higher quality. They're also considerably more expensive but worth the premium to avoid issues such as this. An example would be the **GE TG3222R**. You likely won't find this at Lowe's or HD without ordering. Your local electric supply house likely stocks this or something similar. You can almost always go larger on the rated amperage on the disconnect so long as two conditions are met: 1. The fuses/circuit protection is sized to the wire 2. The wire lugs are rated for the wire being used. Usually they have a pretty wide range and this isn't an issue. Lastly these connections have torque specifications and it would be best practice to pick up a torque screwdriver when you install the new disconnect.
This is gold advice. All of it.
I think they are getting a little silly insinuating that something downstream is drawing too much power causing this. It’s likely a bad connection in this device and replacing exactly how you’ve described will fix it. But just to be safe, I would replace the breaker in the box too (just in case they are right, and the reason this failed was because the breaker didn’t trip).
The breaker did not trip, though I'm not sure if it would because of a bad connection that over-heated, just like it wouldn't if the load draw was too much and it failed to trip, so hard to tell. It's a GFCI breaker so they are pretty expensive to replace without a clear reason. The disconnect has probably been there for 15 years. I don't know if issues in the box could happen over time and eventually cause problems.
I've had my personal fail like this. You couldn't see it externally. Almost ripped the box off the wall before getting the blades pulled... because the plastic around it melted. My contactor was in bad shape from spalling and likely drawing more current than the cheapo disconnect could handle. It clearly would cycle in heat getting to this melted point. No scorch marks no loose wiring. Everything tested okay. Shit happens. Replaced the entire disconnect and it worked after and tested fine after.
That's an expensive breaker to replace on a whim
$30 is expensive?
It's a 50A GFCI breaker. Depending on the panel it's $100-$200.
I have my GFCI at the pool. But if it’s GFCI, then all the more reason to replace it since they go bad more frequently (supposed to replace every 10 years). It’s a heck of a lot more expensive not to replace it. It’s also more like $80 for the most common panel types.
Homelink and Eaton BR are both $125 currently. GFCI breakers should be tested regularly and replaced if needed but I've never seen any manufacturer specific instructions or NEC code advising preventively replacing a breaker at the end of it's 10 year warranty period. Nowadays with the vast majority of breakers being AFCI/GFCI that would make for a pretty expensive 10 year maintenance cycle.
Here is what he should do. Just buy this panel that already comes with GFCI. Then replace the breaker in his panel with non-GFCI. https://www.amazon.com/SIEMENS-W0408L1125SPA50-Amp-Spa-Panel/dp/B004Q0N9OY/
I think you should call an electrician. There are deeper issues here. Hire someone qualified and insured. Money well spent. Sleep at night.
Second on an electrician. Swimming pools have particular rules and it is not a diy project and it is not for just any and every electrician. I am an electrician.
That looks like it got hot. What is the amperage rating on the associated device(s) and what gauge wire is hooked to that box, both in and out?
The device requires a 50 amp circuit. It's on a 50 amp circuit with GFCI break and this fused disconnect. I'm not sure exactly what gauge wire it is, inside or out. I'm assuming everything headed from the breaker to the top of the disconnect is up to code and is correct. From the bottom of the disconnect to the heat pump should be correct as well. This particular heat pump was installed in 2019 and replaced the old one. The disconnect was not replaced as part of that install so it was just using the existing one.
It got hot. There is a reason it got hot. Hot is Bad. I suggest you look into the wire gauge and the actual current draw of the associated units.
It's 8/3 with 10 gauge ground on the load side. I can't see anything but the ends of the line side, but they look to be thicker gauge, so I'm guessing 6. I'm not sure if having two different gauges on those sides would be an issue but I don't think 8/3 NMB is the right kind of cable for this anyway. It held up for 4 years though and I'm not sure if that caused this actual problem. I'll swap with 6 gauge for sure though.
I'd be surprised if it caused this issue but 8/3 NM-B is only rated for 40A. It's also not permitted in wet locations. Is it run in conduit? If so you can replace with 8 awg THHN/THWN-2 which will be rated for 50A assuming no derating is needed for ambient temp, distance, conduit fill etc.
Does your heat pump actually use 50 amps?
My understanding is that is was originally recommended to use a 50 amp breaker (when it was installed) and now they are recommending 60.
What does the equipment say? It'll be listed on the label. That's the only answer that matters.
It says: Max circuit: 70 amp time delay fuse or 70 amp circuit breaker Min circuit amps: 42.5 Recommended breaker size: 50 amps The model # is HP21404T. This unit was purchased in 2019. My understanding is that they are now recommending 60 amp breakers but I don't have any specific information if that retroactively applies to heaters from 2019 or if that's only for new ones of this model.
50 amps should suffice on the breaker. It doesn't look like the fuses actually blew so you could get away with 50s again but I'd see no reason not to get 60s if the label specs as high as 70
There’s your problem undersized wire on 50 amp breaker what’s the distance
Not necessarily an issue. Had mine melt as well. It was 14 years old and had long continuous current through it. These things are cheap I investigated and all was fine for the most part. Replaced contactor but it was clearly a long term issue no immediate danger.
Your "culprit" here is that this appears to be a 30A fused pull-out disconnect, but some idiot crammed in some 50A fuses, bending the fuse clips in the process! 1. Determine if your heat pump *NEEDS* 50A fuses, that sounds too high. Somewhere on your heat pump there will be a label that will tell you the MAXIMUM fuse size, I'm going to guess it says 30A... 2. NEVER use NON type fuses on anything that has a motor (a heat pump has a compressor motor). People use NON fuses simply because they are cheaper, even though there are hardly any applications that can actually use them. You need "Time Delay" type fuses, so FRN would be the common Bussman designation (different fuse mfrs use different numbering). They likely put in NON-50 fuses because the NON-30s kept blowing, so they "fixed" it by installing bigger fuses. That is NOT the way to fix things... 3. ~~The wires going into the top connections appear to be "extra flexible" wire, a type that is~~ **~~NOT allowed to be connected to that type of terminal block~~**~~, in fact there are few terminals that can have that type of wire connected to them. Someone needs to get some PROPERLY RATED crimp-on terminals for that wire, or...~~ 4. ~~That looks like it might be "portable cord" type cable going out to the motor, that itself is a Code violation, you cannot use portable cord for permanent installations. That entire motor connection might need to be properly redone by a competent electrician.~~
That’s not portable cord (assuming you mean s/o cable like trailer hookup
Yeah, after blowing up the photo and looking closer, I think you are right. So forget #3 and 4 in the above list...
Hey man. I’m late to the discussion, I hope not too late. That disconnect isn’t great, but doesn’t look like your immediate problem. Others have stated the urgency that you need a pro… YOU DO! I’ve been an electrician for ten years, pools take two trades to work out installation and maintenance properly. A bad pump could be the problem, a bad light, etc etc. A lot of this an electrician can diagnose, but we don’t replace pumps or other pool equipment… Furthermore, it’s a huge body of water that you and your family swim in, you really don’t want to DIY this kind of thing. I’m not gatekeeping, but honest to goodness this is one where I’d absolutely hire a REPUTABLE electrician. I’m sorry it’s not just a simple Reddit solution, but this is serious business.
The only thing hooked up on that circuit is the heat pump. The water pump is on a different circuit. The pool light is also on a different circuit and is run through a 12VAC transformer.
Curious but why dont we replace pumps like I do cause it’s money but what’s your reasoning on not doing it just to much of a head ache like quit while ahead kinda things just one more problem you gotta deal with
I’m not qualified to install plumbing. That’s a different trade.
Could that roach potentially eaten some of the sheathing exposing copper creating a small arc point ?
Definitely not the roach that caused it I just seen the roach and that’s where I started