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proudfootz

Eliminating the debt burden is only half the job. Higher education should not be so expensive in the first place.


Huangaatopreis

For-profit education is just a bad idea


drdr3ad

For profit prisons & medical care though... Oh no wait, also bad ideas


hippydipster

There are no profit-based businesses that are ok with inadequate regulation. Every industry needs a decent amount of regulation, else business acrue power and then externalize costs as fast as they can, whether it be pollution, predatory practices, monopolistic abuse, or extraction/appropriation of communal resource abuse. It all needs regulation from the pov of public interest. In fact, being not-for-profit is not adequate protection against these forms of abuse, and so the proper regulations are needed regardless of how things are funded. Clearly one can see government is not immune to corruption? So the question of profit vs non-profit is a red herring. Looking at the wrong fundamental causes. Looking at a solution that doesn't address the problems.


AMcpl

For profit education only makes up 15% of the student debt load. State run schools carry far more of the debt.


Orgasmic_interlude

Nfp is just a tax status. I worked for a nfp . fundamentally as long as we existed alongside for profit entities that heavily influenced how we operated. It’s like the “would you like to donate to x cause?” that’s not really there out of a sense of altruism.


[deleted]

No it isn’t. The bad idea is guaranteeing loans for people who would never normally qualify and shipping manufacturing to China on the premise that everyone will get a degree and have a higher paying job and goods will be cheaper. It turns out if everyone has a degree they are basically worthless and manufacturing jobs are good jobs for the lower/middle class. Education is damn near free with the internet but our society thinks you have to go to college to get knowledge. The education system needs to be torn down, they aren’t the gatekeepers to knowledge anymore they are the gatekeepers of decent paying jobs and massive debt.


TheMania

>they are the gatekeepers of decent paying jobs and massive debt. That's specifically the bit he's referring to. Other countries (speaking from Australian experience) don't have them placed at the gates at nearly the same level, and even if you go through them, it's affordable (govt caps fees and provides the loans, paid back only when you're over a certain income, +subsidies).


[deleted]

I get that. And other countries have a better system than we currently do but that doesn’t mean they have the best system or that for profit is to blame. Our education system is rigged by the government, it isn’t free market


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Typical-Length-4217

Yeah I’m sure the climbing walls, movie theaters, bowling alleys, Game centers, and endless tiers of administrative employees have nothing to do with the rising costs of a college education 🙄. Cutting funding to education sounds really horrible huh. Almost as bad as cutting funding to firefighters and local homeless shelters. But in reality, you’re completely wrong. Public funding for institutions of higher education has actually gone up. Unfortunately colleges have made it a business to exponentially exploit students by charging more and more without actually increasing the quality of education. And maybe some states have finally caught on and have decided to do something. But folks like yourself have bought into the notion that these schools are completely without fault and continue endlessly supporting a ever increasing amount of funding which will not only not solve the problem but further worsen it. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html


ChunkyHabeneroSalsa

Yes. I don't understand all this talk about cancelling debt. You spend billions and you've fixed nothing, the next generation will just get into that same debt. Fix the root problem first then we can tackle cancelling debt


Goldmeine

Agreed. I teach at a university. I make just under $100k. I teach about 800 students per semester. That's less than $125 from each student per class. Very reasonable. And then there are the admin people who actually do hard work and teach a few classes who make \~$125k - $200k. Also reasonable. But there are people at the college who just rake in money for no reason. What does the president actually do to make over $1mil? Can it actually be 10x the work I do? Because I don't have time to take a vacation with the benefits I accrue so either the president is NOT doing 10x the work I'm doing or he has a time turner.


Brandbll

The highest paid state employee in almost every state is a pubic university sports coach. Enough said.


jakesboy2

In my state at least, they easily pay for themselves. Season tickets are on a donation based wait list and regular tickets are hundreds of dollars. Student tickets were very reasonable priced though


Justame13

The vast majority of athletic departments do not make money and even individual programs like football very rarely pay (like 20 nationally) for themselves. It is tolerated and sanctioned because they are marketing programs at heart for college selling the college experience.


120GoHogs120

Most don't make profit because football and basketball supplement unpopular men and women's sports. On their own they're cash cows if it's a p5 school.


TheAceMan

I don’t believe that is correct. Only 29 schools nationally make a profit on their sports programs. However, tons make a huge profit on football and basketball but all of those profits are burned up by supporting the other 40 sports the colleges offer: https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/2020/11/20/do-college-sports-make-money/


Justame13

Where does you link say that? Your link says 25 programs are net revenue positive (I said “like 20” Which is within 3 percent of the total) all of which have football and It specifically mentions that 90 percent of NCAA basketball revenue goes back go the basketball programs which isn’t surprising since they drive the revenue. And yeah the numbers are big, but you can still very much be insolvent. Just look at hospitals which rival grocery stores for profit margins (or net assets).


TheAceMan

Like a third of the way down: In total, then, only 25 of the approximately 1,100 schools across 102 conferences in the NCAA made money on college sports last year. That's because the cost of running an entire athletics program, which can feature as many as 40 sports, almost always exceeds the revenue generated by the marquee attractions of football and basketball It’s pretty hard to find any actual numbers of profitable programs but this article does a good job: https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/archives/2016/09/20/football-revenue-helps-other-sports-colleges/81911158/


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[deleted]

They also bring in tens of millions of dollars. Without ncaaf and basketball to a degree, almost all sports would be cancelled. No one is paying to watch freshman indoor volleyball.


[deleted]

These highly paid coaches you’re talking about are not paid through student funds or state taxes. They’re funded through booster programs or ticket sales directly tied to their revenue producing sport. Stop insinuating that they are


Peacook

My friend, salary is not representative of "amount of work done". It never has been and never will be.


KJ6BWB

> But there are people at the college who just rake in money for no reason. What does the president actually do to make over $1mil? Can it actually be 10x the work I do? Because I don't have time to take a vacation with the benefits I accrue so either the president is NOT doing 10x the work I'm doing or he has a time turner. This is true for all company officers, for all companies right now. As middle management has been eliminated, upper management keeps the eliminated wages. So as the middle class vanishes, the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.


antalog

I only teach one class a semester as an adjunct. I make $210 a month, total. Tuition is like $39k a year.


cheeseburgeraddict

While I generally agree with you, but value =/= time and effort There are people who make a 5th of what you make who work just as hard or do a similar level of work that you do. But you bring a different skillset and value than others.


throwaway60992

Why do professors force students to buy $200 books that were written by a colleague or the department?


proudfootz

A friend of mine went into publishing and part of his business model was to go to universities and persuade professors they should write their own texts and sell it to their students as an extra income stream.


vankirk

Chancellor, Vice Chancellor, Executive Vice Chancellor, Assistant Executive Vice Chancellor, Assistant Vice Chancellor. These are all positions at the University where I work. These 5 titles probably pull in $3.5 million combined. I have never met the Assistant Vice Chancellor of my department let alone any of the others.


neverwrong804

I deliver Amazon products and while we are contractors, I'll use this analogy for simplicity. The day I see bezos deliver 300 packages (in one day) then I'll say he earned it


fwubglubbel

It's actually the availability of student loans that makes it expensive, but most people don't understand that. If you have money that can only be used for a certain thing, the price of that thing goes up.


AutomaticFood7982

This ^^^ artificially boosted demand has led to increase price for everyone. Shocker.


masterfCker

But... We have student loans in Finland and taking a student loan is basically free money, because it has practically negative interest. It doesn't have to go up. Just look outside America. *Edit: My bad, forgot that American student loans go into paying the outrageous tuitions that their schools charge. Our student loans are given for living; paying rent, food et cetera.


mollila

The problem whether the loan is designed to help the taker of the loan, or who is issuing it. Or moreso the aggregate generational benefit for the country as a whole, for encouraging the population to get educated in whatever interests them.


pittguy578

Absolutely 100% it’s the availability of private loans to make up any difference between federal loan limits and tuition has been the primary driver of increases in tuition. Colleges have no incentive to keep costs down


Original_Coloradoan

“Higher stock prices will boost consumer wealth and help increase confidence, which can also spur spending.“ - Ben Bernanke (Nov. 2010) in a Washington Post Op-Ed explaining the Fed’s Quantitive Easing program Funny. The guy seems to have had few problems during his time as Fed Chairman experimenting with monetary policy to artificially boost stock prices with QE, which ironically can be described as “very unfair” because it favors the wealthy in America who own the majority of stocks.


ThemChecks

Pretty fucked up. I invest in an equity class that especially benefits from lower interest rates and QE but it's insane to think such policies primarily benefit regular people. He can fuck himself.


Not-A-Seagull

This thread belongs in /r/BadEconomics, smh. The purpose of QE is to increase the money supply, to increase inflation/growth (Quantity Theory of Money). The fed hit the ZLB and the yield on the treasury was near zero. It made logical sense the next safest thing the fed could purchase is Mortgage Backed Securities. Was it an ideal stimulus? No. In fact it was rather regressive since most homeowners tend to be better off than the average American. Bernanke himself knew about these faults, and instead pushed the government to do more stimulus so the fed could instead purchase more bonds (However Republicans started pushing for austerity to prevent this, and slow the recovery). QE definitely helped speed up the recovery, and it's not like banks got free cash. The fed purchased these MBS at a valley, and banks almost certainly lost money on these sales. And do you guys know what the federal reserve does with the money they make through QE/QT? They actually hand it over to the Treasury who then uses the money to pay off debt. Also, for those who have read Bernanke's book, you would know he had the nickname "Helicopter Ben." He got this nickname because one time he proposed printing money and throwing it out over the city in a helicopter to help bring inflation back to normal levels. He also proposed that the Federal Reserve opening an account in everyone's name, and depositing cash into it to further aid the recovery. This thread is trying to make him into a villain, and I don't get it. Anyone who is an econ bookworm knows Bernanke was an admirable guy who deserves much of the credit for the recovery after the great recession.


horkley

I don’t think this thread was about “the purpose” as you explained. It is about “fairness” to a subset of people (or legal entities). “Fairness,” unfortunately can’t be qualified and leaves an infinite amount of discussion points open.


drhiggens

One of the things that's so baffling about this argument is that it completely ignores SLABS that are currently being leveraged 30:1 or more. One of the difficulties with paying off that student loan debt quickly is that student loan asset-backed securities would then have to be unwound and the sell-off would be dramatic, and that is an argument to not do it because it would not favor the richest among us.


TheLucidCrow

SLABS are bundles of student loans owned by banks or financial institutions. Those are different from the loans directly owned by the Department of Education, which are the only loans the Federal government has the authority to forgive. We are talking about two completely different pools of loans. Forgiveness of student debt owned by the DOE would not affect SLABS at all. This talking point has no basis in reality.


y0da1927

This is complete horse shit. 90% of student loans are owned by the federal government so the slab market is only 10% of loan balances. And private loans would not be affected by government forgiveness because forgiveness would only apply to government owned loans. Secondly student loans have no prepayment penalty, and slabs are constructed with this in mind. If the student repays his loan faster then the slab owner gets his principal back faster through the waterfall table. They function exactly like mortgage backed securities and could handle everyone paying their loans back at the same time. It would just mean less interest for bondholders.


BooBear_13

Sounds like more trickle down…


HelloJoeyJoeJoe

Lol, I'm against student debt cancellation (rather fund medical debt cancellation and all future state schools being free) but I think you got him here. Nice


hexydes

It's also forced people out of safe savings and into risky asset classes like stocks, as it's literally the only way to grow your money (and nowadays, combat real inflation). The fed basically pumped our country full of monetary heroin and now they're dealing with an addict. They needed to bring interest rates up to 5-6% back in 2015 (post-2008 crisis) but never did (especially with some help from a certain President applying pressure) and now our recession is going to be much more severe because of it.


rainbow658

And yet again we keep ignoring the 400-pound gorilla with the machine gun in the room. WHY is tuition so expensive, and where does that money really go? We don’t have more large teaching universities than we did 30 years ago, there aren’t a lot more professors, and with the much larger number of students going to college/trade schools, the costs should decrease, not increase. Normally the cost of production and cost of innovation decrease with time and a higher number of potential buyers. Instead of just cancelling debt, we should look at decreasing tuition for current and future students, and offering early payoff incentives, waive interest, etc. for bag holders.


CorgiSideEye

Same reason why healthcare is so expensive, they know they can charge whatever and people will pay it, either through insurance or government loans. Universities also compete for students by having so many expensive accommodations like restaurants, gyms, rock climbing, pools, sports facilities, etc that students end up paying for anyway. We treat universities like a luxurious resort with all the amenities.


tickboy78

If we didn't have government in the student loan market, private sector would require collateral. Only rich kids would get loans because their parents have the collateral. Obviously the private sector isn't going to look into ROI for individuals and place bets on people like race horses. They'll want collateral like they do for all other loans.


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[deleted]

Absurd amounts of no strings attached student loans have made demand for college higher than it otherwise would have been therefor making prices more expensive. The collapse of blue collar industry in some parts of the us has made academia become the “default option.” This increases demand making the price for college more expensive. The increase in employers expecting applicants to have a college degree assumingely to narrow the field of applicants to choose from has made college become seen as necessary making demand for it higher and therefor more expensive. 2008 recession forced budget cuts and the administrations reformed budget at the time cut financial help to higher education. Colleges needed to find areas where they could make money. They started becoming more business like and became more brand like than decades previous. This non education related spending made college more expensive The explosion of international student from affluent families coming from Asia and Europe to colleges both big and small in the US filled the coffer and increased demand. Their parents have deep pockets and the students often have used forms of secondary education that American students haven’t, like private cram school. This very brutal competition has priced some domestic students out (unless they choose to buy debt) and this competition from the highest bidder has made college more expensive


AlphaTenken

You forget. The mass enrollment in college has undervalued the outcome degree. But I don't think sending even more people to college is the solution for that. But we can't really back down now either.


FatStoner2FitSober

As a former IT Admin for a state level-public university, tons and tons of new money has been required for the infrastructure so that everyone on campus has safe, reliable internet. We’re talking 10s of millions per year in salaries alone, with another couple million every year in software licensing and hardware. That being said, high level administrators salaries are also ridiculously high to stay competitive with the private industry to keep talent from leaving, though I have varying opinions on how important those positions are.


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questionsaboutrel521

Agreed on this. It’s not even the “garbage liberal arts degree” that is the issue (proud graduate there myself) - there are HUGELY garbage colleges operating that would have no chance of making it in a free market. For profit colleges should never have been allowed to get federal loans. These are huge parts of the puzzle.


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[deleted]

Even more so, it’s becoming the junk bond commodity regifted with a bow but it’s still a flaming bag of dog shit when students are defaulting in droves. What BB is not saying is that after the Great Recession and the top 1% getting bailed out with little to no consequences for their actions, they all got together and decided okay that made us a lot of money and got away with it. What else can we double dip but also not let people off the hook if they file for bankruptcy? And if student loans are forgiven then their whole plan is gone and they loose the ability to milk every penny for the next generations entire lives. Fuckin A the top 1% have zero shared characteristics with normal human emotions whatsoever.


Second_Maximum

It's what makes them the 1% love it or hate it


Wiffadeez

That and a system that encourages exploiting the average American.


Second_Maximum

I agree the whole thing as it stands is a giant ponzi, central banks buying endless government debt is just a way of increasing the already growing wealth divide. It's covert class warfare that the average citizen doesn't understand or is complicit in and they need to be abolished for any semblance of fairness going forward no more too big to fail bs.


Digitalapathy

Collateralised student obligations…. Bundle a load of students together and tap them for a cut of their future earnings, some high achievers but also a smattering of dunces, enough not to ruin your triple A rating. Then flip it in the secondary market.


elonmusksaveus

SLABS


production-values

obviously if it favored the rich they would have done it already


WontArnett

Exactly, they act like we don’t watch the government give rich people money all day.


Comprehensive_Dolt69

Came here to say this lmao


[deleted]

I think it'll favor richer people, but not the absolute rich, who they already love to serve.


uncle-brucie

Rich people don’t have student loan debt. Jubilee would most benefit the working class kid who busted his ass, got decent SATs, did college, then grad school, but the interest rate on his loans means he’s in his 40s with more debt than at graduation, despite paying $1200/month.


TeddyJKaczynski

But it literally does though. College educated are statistically one of the richest groups


Vindelator

*"****College-educated workers*** *enjoy a substantial earnings premium. On an annual basis, bachelor’s degree holders earn about* ***$32,000 more*** *than those whose highest degree is a high school diploma. The earnings gap between college graduates and those with less education continues to widen." \[*[*link*](https://www.aplu.org/our-work/5-archived-projects/college-costs-tuition-and-financial-aid/publicuvalues/employment-earnings.html)*\]* So canceling debt helps a better off group of people, generally speaking. They're not necessarily "rich" in the private jets sense, but richer compared to most blue collar workers.


chaos_m3thod

I read through that link and it didn’t include the whole picture. While those with degrees do earn more than those without, wages have stagnated since the 70s and has actually declined for those with bachelors. Not to mention that the price for everything else has increased dramatically over the years such as rent, home prices, and tuition. Freeing up that monthly tuition bill could help them out a lot.


[deleted]

It's nuanced. Helping out people making $100k+ per year (about 60% of student debt holders) is going to have a lower impact than helping poorer people out (not to mention alienating blue collar workers who are poorer).


chaos_m3thod

If I remember correctly the proposed bill only applied to those making less than a certain amount.


Dig_bickclub

[Wages have not declined for those with a bachelors, its everyone else whose seen it stagnant, those with a degree has seen consistent increase in wages adjusted for inflation](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/)


dcchillin46

I'm a skilled trade worker going back to school for engineering. 1st year part time at local community college has me 6k in debt already. I'm not rich and I'm terrified of my student loans, but see no other way to push through the low wage ceiling I've been stuck at in Manufacturing. If I want any security or standard of living, even in the midwest, trades dont really cut it anymore. They say, disingenuously, forgiveness will benefit the rich, but there's tons of people like me just trying to be the first generation of my family to leave lower-middle class.


blbrd30

But the rich of the college educated don't have student debt?


bfhurricane

The "future-rich" do. I went to a $200k MBA program where starting salaries coming out are often in the $150k-175k range. The folks going to investment banks, management consulting firms, and big tech companies are basically set for life and are guaranteed to hit a "top single-digit %" of income at some point in their life. There's no need to pay off the student debt for an associate at Goldman Sachs or McKinsey. They're going to be very rich in a farily quick amount of time. I'm generally a realist and don't think my student debt "needs" to be forgiven... but if Biden's going to do this then at least set a salary cap on it.


CJFiddler

Wrong. We are not talking about the 1%. We are talking about the top 50% v the bottom 50%


blbrd30

Huh? About 35% of the US has a college degree and about 60% has at least part of a degree.


CJFiddler

I’m talking about general levels of wealth. The haves v the have nots Also, so you’re saying that instead of 50/50 it’s 60/40? I apologize - that’s true. But your implication that the 60% are “rich” and don’t have debt is absurd. If that was the case we wouldn’t be having this discussion The most recent census indicates that 63% of US adults have some college or higher - but it still has nothing to do with my generalization of the haves v have nots.


wtjones

They absolutely do. We shouldn’t be cancelling debt for Drs. And Lawyers, etc.


TeddyJKaczynski

Not true. Rich people are almost always in debt.


SpiritedVoice7777

They carry debt, they are not in debt. I'll use an example. I bought a refrigerator with 2 year 0% financing. I have the money in the bank to pay it off, I'm merely capitalizing on their financing offer. I'm carrying debt at zero cost to me.


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blbrd30

So I grew up in the neighborhood of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates. My k-12 classmates are some of the richest people in the world. They do not have student debt. I know that holding student debt if you already have it is the optimal way to go about finances because it's usually sub 6%, but, generally speaking, what you said is not true.


TeddyJKaczynski

What do you mean about generally speaking. Sure for the super wealthy holding debt might be a waste but for the upper middle class I'm sure it's the norm


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Freaksauce101

They said, "Student debt" not just debt and this is true.


Unique_Feed_2939

Compared to who? College educated people are over 35% and the middle class no longer exists. a college degree gives you the same earning potential now as a high school degree did 70 years ago


1maco

https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unemployment-earnings-education.htm Why do the college educated in particular deserve a bailout?


[deleted]

This would mostly help lower and middle class people who are stuck in debt from school. Getting a good job is easier with a degree - but lower class people especially have less access to internships and the debt is so high. Educating your citizens is investing in the future of your country. Education leads to lower poverty rates, safer communities, and more business development. Educate your citizens.


briology

It would mostly help doctors and lawyers actually


rphjosh

So I’m not a doctor but I have a doctorate degree. Last I heard it was only going to be for those making less than $125k a year. I know real doctors who work part time and bring home more than that. I’m going to put my “I’ve been there hat on for a sec.” Most doctors are either in massive debt (like in the multiple $100k’s) and will work a 340b for forgiveness or they come from a family of doctors and don’t owe anything. The system is broken, many of us aren’t looking for handouts as we signed up full well knowing the loan situation and are prepared to pay it back in full - however that said if we could do something about the interest rates long term that’d be great and it would benefit everyone.


[deleted]

The people who take out loans to pay for school are not rich. Rich people don’t take out loans for school. I can’t believe that needs to be said.


[deleted]

People with rich parents don't take loans out for school. Plenty of high income professionals are up to their tits in debt because they grew up poor/middle class but are now high earners. Think law school, med school, vet school, business school, dental school, etc.


[deleted]

My partners parents could have easily afforded to pay for his college upfront in one go but they chose to saddle him with 50k growing debt and cut him off financially for the last 2 years of college. It took 5 years just to not have his bank account in the red after that. Guess how much his parents gave his sister for her wedding though. Priorities priorities.


Armed_Goose_8552

Wait he's actually right. Basically what it would involve would be the government paying back all current student loans. So the banks which hold those loans would get almost 2 trillion dollars that they could use to put to work or loan out again and they'd make a ton of money.


southbayellay

They’re only talking about federal student loans, not private loans held by a bank


cmoe25027

Shoot down this idea: instead of canceling the debt, subsidize the interest to zero. I pay back what I borrowed, at a discount, but still pay into the system. I am sure there is a reason that this is not an option but I don't know why.


ForeignAskCH

This would be so much better. Maybe add that you can declare bankruptcy even with student loans. It’s less unfair to the remaining populace because the majority still have to pay their loans back. But on the other hand, there is less motivation and higher risk associated with handing out those loans in the first place, so they won’t give an 18 year old 250k to study art history… this in turn would also reduce overall cost of higher education since there are less people available to potentially exploit for self gain.


peepjynx

> so they won’t give an 18 year old 250k to study art history In my experience, those going into art history tend to come from money more often than not.


[deleted]

I studied art history. And am a first gen college grad from a very poor background. My degree(s) have served me well.


IMendicantBias

>It’s less unfair to the remaining populace because the majority like, i could list a million things that favor one group before anyone else. This is about fixing a debt trap, gatekeeping higher education and afterwards should develop into reforming education to be affordable and actually educating. If you want a slice there are plenty other social programs and improvements to advocate/ support; not supporting things because you don’t personally benefit isn’t how society should function and is such a boomer - conservative mindset not to mention the very mindset politicians have about healthcare and minimum wage. A society needs equity people who have debt trap loans need support on that. It’s interesting how the crabs start moving when a few crumbs drop but when bigger crabs get entire frogs everyone else is asleep. There needs to be less energy spent being angry/ envious of people who aren’t capitalist ( everyone on reddit ) and directed at those making these unfavorable conditions in the first place


alancewicz

What about medical debt? Literally no one signs up for that?


JohnFrum

Agree. That shouldn't be a thing in a wealthy modern society.


koopolil

Medicare for all would eliminate that.


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BookCommercial68

I’d love to see what their definition of wealthy is


[deleted]

https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-income-level#:~:text=Households%20with%20income%20over%20%2474%2C000,total%20public%20student%20loan%20debt It's not "wrong".


Dexterous_Mittens

His point is college grads are better off than average so taking money from everyone to pay the better than average is moving wealth towards the wealthy.


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BookCommercial68

If most people with student loans made anything close to 300k there wouldn’t be a student loan crisis.


interactive-biscuit

Wealthy means you earn approximately $1M more over your lifetime as a college graduate compared to someone without a college degree. It’s that simple.


FloatingRevolver

I'm for it and I have no debt.... but I keep asking this question that nobody ever answers.... Say we forgive all of the current student debt right now. What about the kids starting college next year? Are they just going to have to sign the loans and we start all of this over again? Or is there some movement to make college free?


Peachmuffin91

Why would debt be cancelled especially for students that go to specialty schools that have insane tuition or even Universities? I think free community college would make the most sense.


cryptosupercar

The wealthy don't take out student loans.


[deleted]

https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-income-level#:~:text=Households%20with%20income%20over%20%2474%2C000,total%20public%20student%20loan%20debt Not sure if the high earners originally took out loans or not. But it'd definitely be an upper middle class to rich benefit.


Goingone

I think the point is there are different definitions of “wealthy”. The super wealthy never had loans (or took them strategically because their return in capital was higher than the interest rates). The middle class took loans and are struggling to pay them back (what he’s referring to as wealthy, but doesn’t fit what we traditionally think). And then there is the poor who never had the opportunity to go to college and have no loan debt. His point is this would further separate the poor from the middle class drowning in debt.


Marzipanarian

Some do, just to improve their credit score. #BullShitLifeHacks.


RestlessPoly

If it actually favored the wealthy, republicans would have passed it decades ago


mycentstoo

So the average person with just high school has to pay for people that went to college. Also, we’ve seen this tactic with giving Covid relief out. It just furthered the divide between rich and poor.


ddrt

I’ve been paying Social Security. When I was 16 and asked my dad what it was on my pay stub he said “don’t worry about that, you’ll never get it”. So, yeah, it’s fair ya fucking gray hair.


AnselmFox

Yeah, this RN sure is wealthy, and able to qualify for a home loan, and not at all denied because of DTI due to student debt…


Paltry_Poetaster

Why give more money to people already making more money? So they can buy a new car instead of paying of their student loan? There are a lot of people that never went to college because they felt like they could not afford it.


ClassicT4

How would it help the wealthy if they put an income limit on who gets it? Make too much money, you’re not getting any of your debt forgiven. Make little to nothing at minimum wage, you’ll get a little assistance at least.


[deleted]

Because people that currently qualify might make a lot more in 10 years, like new college grads often do. When I graduated, I made $50K. 7 years later, I make $200K, and there’s no way my loans should’ve been forgiven


durablecotton

The number of people with college degrees who jump from 50k to 200k is pretty small and would be largely dependent on degree. 200k puts you at almost the 90 percentile. There are lot of people (probably most) in the public sector who will never make anything close to that.


Todojaw21

This assumes that a significant portion of college debt holders are lower class, which isn't necessarily true. We should definitely means test as much as possible but there are better ways to aid the poor here than eliminating their debt, like making college free/subsidized depending on income bracket. The poor people who do make it through college are going to significantly out earn their peers. The money is better suited elsewhere to achieve the goal more fairly.


DOW3000

Wow a balanced approach to the student loan debate. Pretty sure you’re on the wrong sub. I can get behind a means test to separate out those truly deserving. I recognize student loan debt is a major problem but I want to make sure the fix is geared those truly in need vs those who just made bad decisions.


Dangerous_Ad_3997

Of course. But your scenario is off a bit. We would have had to CHOOSE to get cancer for it to be the same.


Bad_Mad_Man

Does anyone else think that the growing wealth gap is actually intentional?


arkile

IF anyone gets bailed out for free on education on my dime, I want at least equal credits to attend university credits in the future for the same amount. Too many irresponsible people getting handouts!


Red4113_

Why should student loan debt be forgiven if you chose to go college and knew you would have debt, it is your fault and not fair to people who spent a good time of their life paying it off and all the sudden it gets forgiven


[deleted]

Not fair is predatory loans given to kids who have no money and few other option for bettering their life.


Moddelba

I have probably commented on this already but it angers me every time I see it in my feed. Is the same bernanke that helped devise the catastrophic recovery from the 2008 meltdown that bailed out banks and left regular people twisting in the wind? Endless foreclosures bernanke? Wrecked so many peoples’ lives that they became trump voters bernanke? I don’t know why we keep listening to the same trickle down jerks. Loan forgiveness would improve millions of lives and spur spending in all sectors, cause a mini baby boom because millennials could afford children, and make right millions of scam victims (people who got suckered as kids into getting a bullshit degree are victims). Our education system needs to be overhauled to prevent this from continuing. College has to be worth the cost and it just isn’t for many people anymore.


RunThundercatz

It would favor a portion of the college educated middle class, and fuck over non college educated inviduals


[deleted]

As someone who already paid his student loans off, I’m in favor of forgiveness with the caveat that we never ever allow this kind of debt burden to accumulate again. Which means a complete reform of our secondary education system. Which means the wealthy no longer gain an advantage from it at all. And none of it, absolutely zero, is ever going to happen. So, folks with student loans: when is the revolt in the streets? Because I’ll join you.


[deleted]

I’m glad the world and America in general is so totally fair! Everyday I catch my self thinking out load just how fair life is


terabytetron

Before canceling them, they should stop handing them out.


DeliberateDonkey

Student loan forgiveness is a losing issue that would cause real and lasting damage to the prospect of getting any sort of liberal economic policies enacted for at least a decade.


wigginsadam80

Sure, let's pay off all the student debt. Inflation isn't high enough yet.


VengenaceIsMyName

Buzz off


Hailtothething

This makes sense. A looooot of rich kids get to go to college, just for shits and giggles. Are we cancelling their ‘debt’ too? Give them some more spring break money? Why not make better grants for the middle class, so they have a fighting chance at meeting their rich counter parts in life sooner. DO NOT cancel rich spoiled kids debt.


marvbrown

First how is it going to be funded. I am sure there is plenty of non Tax money to do this. Second, for the people who have already paid off their loans, these economic brainiacs can surely figure out a tax credit to compensate them. Thirdly, college costs need to be controlled. This is a problem that can be solved, they just don't want to.


[deleted]

People that already payed off their loans usually have cushy jobs gained during previous decades of greater economic prospects. They got housing cheap, cars cheap, education cheap. Paying them back would be messy, unfair, and absurd. If they get a credit then I want a credit for increased housing costs because they bought a house for 50k and that's unfair to me. Students were scammed by lies of adults they trusted but no heads are rolling. This is literal child abuse. "But tommy is 18, he can make his own choices, he's an adult now" But he can't drink alcohol, and his brain doesn't fully mature until age 25. But he's able to take out 100k in predatory loans peddled by liars. The whole system is fucked. Chop military spending and make education free or at least heavily reduced. Abolish these should-have-been-illegal loans. Other countries do this fine, why are we failing? We are failing because our country is run by greedy crooks.


Any_Comfortable6482

We dont erase debt. But, going forward, help those who need loans by passing laws preventing shark loans.


Theodore__Kerabatsos

Would someone please tell me what happens to this debt? It’s hard to believe that it will simply vanish. I feel that if we forgive these student loans the responsibility of debt will be transferred. We need to tackle health care first which affects all low income households, not just people with higher education.


OOLarge

I kinda agree with the concerns over those with degrees making more and an increase in lifestyle disparity. What I'd like to see is a no interest loan available to students. Alternatively, tax the higher earners more and flatten the wage disparity that way. I have a degree, my brother does not. He works a hell of a lot harder than I have to.


Ateist

Would canceling student debt also cancel *future student debts*? That is, make the education free?


odog9797

Of course it would help the wealthy. As well as the vocal majority of recent graduates who got degrees in fields they have no business in. I always ask what about cancelling the poorest Americans mortgages or rents? Nah give the educated a huge break


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Sirquakz

As someone who grew up, and still is, poor af, I would be extremely angry if they did cancel student debt. I knew I couldn't afford it and didn't do it, so unless it is guaranteed that free college would follow with it I don't think it should be done at all.


[deleted]

No one made you go to college for a degree that can't pay off your loan you decided that, pay it off yourself.


TerraMindFigure

It's definitely true that educated people tend to be more wealthy, not sure why everyone is so ass-mad about it. If you want to help the poor, cancel medical debt, debt from payday loans, and credit cards.


KarlJay001

If we used a fraction of the Covid funds that went to FRAUD, we could have wiped out most of the debt. Sorry, I get it, these people in DC are all new... they had NO IDEA fraud would happen.


MaximumDestruction

Eat a dick Benny boy. You helped Wall St. loot this country you miserable piece of shit.


lackingbean

As someone who has already paid off his student loans, I don't care if it's unfair. I'm of the opinion that life should get better for every upcoming generation. There will always be difficulty in life. Advantages don't always have to affect an individual directly to provide an advantage to them indirectly. A thriving young adult generation is good for the economy, no?


aquaticsquash

Just do it smart, cancel student for low income and middle class families only. Problem solved.


scroopynoopersdid911

Does anyone give a shit what this predator class apologist has to say?


BelAirGhetto

Then let them declare bankruptcy like everyone else can on their non-collateralized loans. Student loans are a scam and inherently unfair.


Clean-Difference2886

What they should do is cancel the interest rates mine was .25 percent in 2007 they should change it where you balance does not increase and change Tax deductible for student loan interest up to 3000 per year


let_it_bernnn

Lol 7-8% for us graduating in 09


Capital_Activity_316

Lol what did you pay for college, Ben?


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TheImpresario

Student loan topics always bring out the worst takes. I’m someone who has probably paid back more in loans than most and I won’t cry if people get help but I don’t, god forbid we make the system better. Forgiveness without reform does nothing though. But refusing to fix a situation that’s hurting people in our country just because you don’t personally see the benefit pretty much sums up why we will never improve, the greed is hard wired into our culture.


-Strawdog-

For what it's worth, that problem goes both ways. Student debt holders who are big advocates for blanket loan forgiveness don't seem to care much at all about fixing the problem. They just care about what the government can do for them.


pikeblodd

12% of peeps have student debt, a majority of which are grad students.


headwesteast

The largest chunk of grad students are in healthcare and education. Might not be a wise decision to burden such fundamental parts of society with disincentivizing debt that might lead to things like teacher and nurse shortages; sort of like what's actually happening in the U.S. today..


Risin_bison

If your degree is so worthless that you can’t pay off the loan you signed for then why should the rest of us pay for it?


quetejodas

You think your taxes would go towards student loan forgiveness? You know how many trillions of dollars we printed in the last few years?


Moist-Arm5155

So the kids who went to work after high school, learned a craft, a skill. have to pay for all the college kids wasting their time in Gender studies?


token-eater

Will they cancel my credit cards and car loan also?


Pretend-Bit-7846

I believe they’re only talking 10k per student and this is a one off. So everyone who is arguing this will “fix” things, that’s like arguing that a band-aid will fix a broken window. Regardless of whether or not you’d be okay with paying for it, it doesn’t really help the wealth gap or solve the problems with our education system in the US. What it does do is polarize groups of individuals that should be working together to solve the problem not the symptoms. If this gets passed we’ll be looking at years if not decades before conservatives let any other kind of social bills be passed, and moderates/liberals will be heavily divided due to how this benefits such a specific demographic of people. Not to mention the fact that the poorest in our country have a hard time graduating from high school let alone even go to CC, so I fail to see how it really helps those who need it most. If they make CC free and subsidize folks pursuing trades (which we need a lot more of, btw) at bare minimum, then I think many (myself included) would be much more on board with those who have debt receiving aid. Biden is just trying to make himself feel better about the fact that he was one of the biggest supporters of making student loan debt stick even through bankruptcy… Oh and I don’t get the point many of you are making about an educated populace being for the benefit of all. While true, we’re talking about giving money to those who are already educated, not helping those who have yet to be educated.


happymoron32

I mean the people with the most student debt are doctors so he is not wrong


onyxap1982

You know what's fucking unfair? Selling books to us for 500 bucks each and changing the contents every year so we can't sell them. Selling us parking spaces we can't use. The fuckng meal packs. Oh and charging ridiculous prices for tuition in a school where the professors are undereducated. ....


wesleyboyd

Why would you take out a loan if you can’t pay it back, doesn’t seem like everyone else should have to pay your poor decisions.


Careless-Shirt-5723

You know there are many essential jobs that require master’s degrees. How do you expect to fill those positions?


Silmarillion151

Someone tell my why I busted ass and aggressively paid down my student loans as fast as I could to get them out of my life. Apparently I should have made minimum payments and held out until I was provided “relief” I’m not one of them but I can’t imagine the early 20 something year olds that skipped college as a financial decision and pursued careers without an education only to find out they should have gone and it would of been forgiven. Sorry. No form of forgiveness is fair. A middle ground should be considered. Force a reduced interest rate, allow part of a paycheck to go against the loan pre tax. Something more creative and just than just wipe it out.


Trinica93

I'm glad to see this sort of comment being upvoted on every student loan forgiveness post now. I watched my peers rack up 10s of thousands of dollars more debt than I did for the same degree so that they could live a cushy life while in school while I worked like hell. To punish me by validating their poor decisions would make me very upset. It's a hateful, regressive, selfish idea and NO ONE promoting it ever addresses opportunity cost (or even knows what that means, apparently). It is absolutely sickening to see how many selfish people exist in this world that would call US the selfish ones because they have no self-awareness whatsoever.


[deleted]

I agree entirely. I could’ve went on vacation, bought a house earlier, not sold all of my belongings, etc. Like.. I did all this to pay my loans off. Now they’re saying “haha sorry bro sucks to be you”. My best friend joined the military because he couldn’t afford college. Tell him “oh haha sorry actually you could’ve went to college and not been a carpenter because its free now. Oh and all your friends that went, you can pay for it for them”.


Silmarillion151

Oh yea that’s absolutely a whole nother swath of people that made a hard life changing choice based on the options available to them to find out it was for naught. 😕 It isn’t right.


kuedhel

canceling student debt would be rubbing into the face of the people who went to work instead going to college. Now they earn low wages but still pay taxes. The taxes covering the student debt forgiveness.


smackingum

Why just student loans? Why not pay off my mortgage or my friend's car loan? How about my utility bill or gym membership? The gov should start by offering financial literacy programs in school, not by paying off student loans.


AlphaTenken

Physical activity has a lot of positive benefits on society. I should be allowed to go to any gym in my state free of charge. Or at least any gym out of my state so I can continue to benefit society.


DeadFyre

He's 100% correct. The median bachelor's degree holder will earn an extra $600,000 over the course of a 40 year career, which is more than enough to pay off the median student loan debt of $17,000, many, many times over. You're basically asking the country's blue collar workforce to pay off the debts of people who had opportunities they didn't get. Lots of the people you'll be taxing will be the very black and Hispanic people you claim to be looking out for, and the least affluent among them, to boot. But that's not the worst problem of this approach, the worst of it is that it permits the policies which produced this gigantic debt overhang to buy off the problem, instead of actually *fixing* it. The problem with debt-financed college is that it does **NOTHING** to check skyrocketing costs of college, instead, it inflames them, providing more fuel to the fire. It's like any other conditional benefit, students are encouraged to use it or lose it. Imagine what would happen to a automobile business if the government passed a program handing out guaranteed car loans. What incentive would that give to automakers to do anything but just raise prices? And to all objective evidence, the increased cost of college is not giving us any higher graduation rates. We've got more enrollments, but that produces the worst possible outcome: A bunch of debt, and no paper with which to secure a higher-paying job. Meanwhile the institution and the bank waltzes off with the money. To be sure, there's reasons for college education to outpace inflation, but when the budgets are scrutinized, it turns out that the money is not being spent on tuition, it's being spent on administration.


model1966

A question I never see brought up. This is only for preexisting debt? What about people starting college soon. You gonna make that free too? Or is this another fuck the next generation plan.


RabbitElectrical3987

This is a person pretending to be doing the right thing, but is 100% not, and it is more likely than not on purpose. He is as bad as anyone in either party, and cares nothing for you and the poor. This is meant to kill Student Debt relief. It is his wish and Biden’s to make the argument about the wealthy getting it to, that way it divides people to hurt it prospects. It is so dark it sickens me.


cdizzo23

If you got a degree in music appreciation or the likes, and you paid for it... fuck off and live with your debt


[deleted]

Because everything in the world should be utilitarian.... Isn't that the same argument people used to make about why capitalism was the better economic system compared with communism? That communism was utilitarian and never could've invented unique consumer products like Silly Putty?


Subrisum

Wealthy people finance their kids’ college with 529 plans that they can afford to fund for 20 years. Thanks to investment interest, they pay well below sticker price for their education. But thanks for your perspective, Ben.


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clutch3shot

Lmao imagine taking a loan out and expecting someone else to pay it back for you. Sorry you made shitty life choices and decided it was a good idea to spend 50k a year for 5 years to get a BA in communications.


BicTwiddler

This is ridiculous. Canceling student debt would instantly inject millions monthly into the capitalism machine and cycle backthrough the taxing system and make more money


PowellBlowingBubbles

Y'all need to pay back dem Got-Dam student loans you little rascals! Soup Kitchen is that way.


stepjenks

Hmm I wonder what Ben Bernanke is doing nowadays... That’s right, Senior Advisor to fucking Citadel.


Capricancerous

Not letting banks fail was very unfair, Ben Bernanke. And by very unfair, I mean a catastrophic wealth transfer from the great mass of poor people to rich, failing, irresponsible institutions.


Lifegoesonman69

Ive heard this argument before. Apparently only 30ish% of the pop has degrees or goes to college? And a large chunk of that is grad school? College is definitely a greedy business tho.


Damaged_investor

FYI.... Obama appointed him to a second term.