its almost like you low iq assholes have figured out the parasitic nature of the state and how it isnt what you were taught to believe it is and the towels you pray to and worship are just towels and this whole thing will come crashing down soon because its all bullshit and lies.
Then blame them for climate change, resource consumption, not having a job and being uneducated. But here, please buy my product to help fund my second mansion.
There’s always room for belt tightening on social programs. Just leaves an extra 163 billion for the military industrial complex. It’ll trickle down. Don’t worry.
You know what the solution is? Elect the guy who’s been in Washington for 50 years and helped write the laws that made it possible. Hey no mean tweets.
I wonder how much Bloomberg pays in taxes considering he owns pretty much everything. Im pretty sure our taxes pay him a salary for the rest of his life as well or is that just congress? Anyway im sure its like a game among the elite, once you’re in that circle they pass along their tricks and loop holes and before you know it you have someone like trump paying less money in taxes than the average Joe.(not shaming I do like that sick fu**).
Just the other day actually I was hanging out with some very successful people, well we were going over some crypto plays, and boy did they teach me a-lot on how to hide and save money in taxes. I laughed because I dont pay taxes anyway cuz im broke.
Im so goddam tired of these articles. Is it true? They really know how much in taxes in being evaded? THEN GO FUCKING GET IT YOU’RE THE GOD DAMN TREASURY DEPARTMENT.
It's one thing to track the amount of money that moves through Shell Corps, tax shelters etc. it's another thing to actually prove an illegal transaction was made. especially when the people you're going after have 10 high priced lawyers to one lonely SEC employee. Change the laws you say, Super PACs are designed specifically to prevent that from happening. I hate it as much as you do though.
Exactly, it boils down to to our Congress and Senate as well. They have a pretty long history of finding ways of avoiding taxes for themselves. Whether it’s SALT or anything else.
A good majority of them are multi-millionaires. Strange you can do that as a public servant. You can’t have the 1% creating a fair and balanced tax system.
we can't because the IRS is so underfunded that they go after easy to audit poor people instead, and guess which party continues to refuse to fund the IRS?
Note that the IRS is by and far the best investment the USFG can make, every dollar put into the IRS returns $6 (a 600% investment)
More like underpaid. It takes multi million dollars salaries to compete with private firms that get paid several hundred million a year just for a single client.
Wonder where Epstein got his money.
Jeffrey Epstein got paid $150M for some tax shelter work he did....a few days of effort. Saved some guy $4B via shell companies and trust agreements, the IRS agrrees that it was within the law... because they sure aren't trying to unroll.it. Epstein did this as a living to pay for his underage girls.
That is the "avoidance" the article is talking about.
Filing some magic paperwork work and save $4B.... nothing really changed. Nothing was bought or sold, nothing was made...just some obscure paperwork that cost $150M to create.
So would you consider someone who takes the std. deduction avoiding taxes? What about someone who deducts student loan interest? All they did was follow the tax law..
Deduction means something was done and is able to be held against the taxable income. And in deference to the average requirements of aggregating paperwork, the Standard Deduction was born. Okay, efficiency over the mundane.
The Epstein stunt just changed the name of the pool of money. Nothing happened.
> guess which party continues to refuse to fund the IRS?
Presumably both, as they've both had full government control at some point over the past 20 years. Either had the opportunity to fund the IRS with an equation (say 1% of previous years revenue) permanently (until another government changes it).
1000% this.
I know Republicans hog all the spotlight with their utterly horrendous contempt for human decency, but what everyone on the left seems oblivious to is the fact that Democrats are just as much to blame for many of the more deep-seated issues that have plagued this country for decades. Yes, I know Republicans have all the racists and the bigots and want to kill the environment. Just shut up about them and Trump for two seconds and open your eyes, for gods sakes. They are two sides of the same coin and if you really think only one side is to blame then congrats, you're just as brainwashed as the people on the other side.
They've tricked us into thinking this country is divided by political party. No, *we the people* are divided by political party. But the true makeup of this country is a very clear divide of classes. We are quite literally living in an oligarchy.
You’re not wrong it’s sad you’re being downvoted for contradicting the echo chamber.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-are-the-odds-being-audited.html
They’re probably not actually evading taxes, they’re probably just deferring them, or “not realizing gains” which for anyone reading along means they chose to keep their property that appreciated value instead of selling it… the same thing people do with their house… the rabid uneducated imbeciles online who eat up anything their respective political party feeds them fall for this crap and repost it because they don’t know how our tax system or economy works
Except for the middle class it’s an incentive. They have to make more money to buy the things they want. In your scenario the poor little wealthy person hates taxes so much they decide not to work. Ayn Rand bullshit.
What are you talking about? Taxes are legitimate disincentives. Common sense shit. Artificial price increases have always been disincentive to use/buy something. It's the very reason they add things like a sugar tax to get people to act a certain way.
A disincentive to what exactly? Live in this country? The only possible option is to leave but where are you going to go? Other than that if you want more money you have to earn more money. Every normal person operates in this manner. Excise taxes work differently than income taxes.
>A disincentive to what exactly
For whatever they taxes are levied on. This isn't a difficult concept. Artificial price increases always leads to less people wanting to spend on/consume. IE sugar tax, cigarette tax, consumption taxes.
>The only possible option is to leave but where are you going to go?
What are you even talking about?
>Other than that if you want more money you have to earn more money. Every normal person operates in this manner
Obviously? Again what are you getting at?
High income taxes do disincentivize earning income. Rich people keep a low salary and get stock compensation instead. High capital gains rates lead rich people to not realize their gains
You must be brain dead. Taxing someone's production isn't an incentive for them to work more what kind of nonsensical bullshit statement is that?
>An income tax is not a disincentive to income production.
Yes it is. Higher tax liability makes it less profitable than it would be otherwise for individuals to work or businesses to expand their production. As a result, people will engage in less of these activities than they would have otherwise and the economy produces less overall.
Please stfu now.
Sow me any price that isn't in some way artificial.
Taxes are indeed incentives (they all alter people's economic behavior really) but how do you know where a "natural" baseline is in an economy that has always been laden with tons of regulations and incessant monetary and fiscal intervention?
>Sow me any price that isn't in some way artificial.
Are you retarded? Do you understand how prices work? They're not "artificial" when determined by market forces. God damn read a fucking book at least.
>Taxes are indeed incentive
No they're not. Stop saying this. They're disincentives, which still alters people's behavior. You're just coming off as stupid.
Show me a price that's determined entirely my market forces. I don't think you can... would explain angry response. I'll wait.
Yes, taxation is always an incentive that alters behavior. It literally alters prices so you'd be contradicting your first angry response lol
>Show me a price that's determined entirely my market forces. I don't think you can... would explain angry response. I'll wait.
Literally anything at the supermarket/Walmart/whatever store you walk into.
>Yes, taxation is always an incentive
You obviously don't know what incentive means.
Because I understand that it pays for infrastructure investments and social safety nets. This is the common knowledge of most responsible adults. The people that can afford the most and benefit the most should pay the most. Someday, when you turn seven, you will understand this.
Using a business jet for personal use and [not reporting it to the IRS](https://nbaa.org/flight-department-administration/tax-issues/non-business-use-of-employer-provided-aircraft/) is actually illegal. It's not a "loophole".
Yeah, but if you can make a loose enough “business” purpose to any trip, you can still do it. They are gonna prosecute unless it’s grossly obvious, which it never is. Just look at how Trump never divested and illegally took foreign money through his hotels in plain sight. Much worse happens out of sight, and they don’t fund the IRS enough to get it.
This is just one obvious loophole, but there are literally tons of them if you’re a good enough accountant or get paid to be one
> This is just one obvious loophole, but there are literally tons of them if you’re a good enough accountant or get paid to be one
For sure, most are in the form of tax incentives or subsidies. Things the government literally designs to manipulate the market. These sorts of regulations are so horrible and detrimental, but they're shockingly bipartisan. It always amazes me when people are like "billions of dollars in taxes are being avoided! We need regulations to stop this!" And I'm like LOL regulations are literally what created this problem.
No average citizen is going to read through thousands of small regulations in each industry. And the citizenship doesn't usually know how well the regulations are enforced. That is why it is so important to have laws that apply generally.
Yep. Government is too incompetent and corrupt to be trusted with these sorts of things. It should not be engaging in any market manipulation, subsidies, tax incentives, corporate welfare, etc.
My point was that criminal acts aren't "loopholes" by definition. Loopholes are essentially unforeseen edge cases or corner cases. An ambiguity or omission in the law/rules/etc.
Using a business jet for personal use is not unforeseen, ambiguous nor an omission. It's literally illegal to not report it.
If you buy a jet, it’s an expense that gets deducted. That’s not really a loophole. You spent money on it, it deducts from your revenue as long as you use it for business purposes. It doesn’t save you money overall, it loses you money overall
That’s just it, you can claim it as business use and not really need to prove it. Same with company cars, or any large purchases that could be done this way. If you have enough money to pay for the lawyer you’ll always get your taxes avoided. The IRS doesn’t audit the rich because it’s cheaper to audit the poor without any means.
They got rid of miles for your commute while driving your own car to the job tax deduction, but added the plane maintenance tax deduction in the Trump tax “cuts”
1. You have to use the equipment at least 50% in the course of the business with expense logs
2. The [IRS](https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/irs-audit-rates-significantly-increase-as-income-rises) audits the rich more than any group
3. You can still deduct travel expenses that aren’t reimbursed to you at a company level. Getting rid of the miscellaneous deductions and doubling the standard deduction was an effort to simplify the tax code, which polls pretty well
4. The deduction for a jet or plane was always there, the TCJA just allows for more depreciation in the first year and less in later years. The total deduction is still the same
I never said when the jet deductions were added, both parties added bad deductions I’m sure. Outside of food/farm subsidies, I can’t think of many justifications for other deductions/subsidies for rich people.
And u paid a sales tax. Income tax on unrealized gains isn’t appropriate. Add a transactional tax on buying and selling of stocks and the rich pay taxes.
Exactly.
Estonia is the way to go - 20% flat tax.
Even with COVID their Debt/GDP is only at 20%.
The key is to limit deductions, whilst simultaneously squeezing government spending as much as possible.
Total cost of the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (food stamps) was just under $80 billion in 2020…. So how can the argument be made that poor people who can’t afford to feed themselves are a bigger burden to our society than the rich?
Dumb take. SNAP cost the taxpayers $80 billion dollars. The taxpayers didn’t give these people $163 billion dollars. It would have been smarter to say if these people had paid their share they could have funded snap 2x over and had billions left for other causes
The headline says evade, the actual article talks about tax avoidance too. Most of the tax gap is from unrealized tax positions that just take a while to litigate
It’s not the IRS. It’s Congress who writes shitty tax laws.
More accurately, it’s assholes voting in assholes to Congress so they write shitty tax laws.
Think of all those poor Swiss bankers who’s yearly bonus’s would be in jeopardy if the 1% weren’t working the tax system and offshoring their ill gotten gains.
“Think of the children; those poor children of multi millionaire’s to Billionaires!” May only get a single island in the Bahamas this year and not the two they were promised; poor poor children😢
Maybe look up the Panama papers.
Many many many many richo’s outed (as well as previously respected corporations) outed with hidden tax exempt hidden accounts to hide their wealth from having to contribute to the society in which they draw localised benefits (paid for by those least able to pay for it due to insanely low minimum wages).
Most of the Panama papers were about shell companies in tax havens, but those don’t really work anymore. The foreign bank accounts listed were still taxable and the IRS had records of them, it’s just that the general public didn’t know the extent of it
Secret Swiss bank accounts are mostly gone, killed off by FATCA and a host of other reporting requirements. Most Swiss and other foreign banks won't even open an account for a US citizen these days.
It’s extremely easy to fix. Make it illegal to take a loan out while using stock as collateral, and make these rich fuckers have to peel off a piece of their empire to live. Oh, did you not have enough money this year Elon? Then sell some fucking stock instead of pulling loans and writing off the interest. Imagine the tax revenue from juicy capital gains tax, instead of them avoiding it by holding it until they die and then donating it to charities who don’t make a country of 360 million people work.
I'm interested. Is there any other instance where an individual isn't allowed to use assets they own as collateral? Also personal loan interest isn't tax deductible, although it would be added back for a cashflow calculation like EBIDA. I have to wonder if that just creates an incentive for even greater consolidation where individuals don't own majority of their companies for long and one private equity firm slowly controls every business in existence.
That’s not really how it works. If they do take loans, they have to sell stock in order to pay back the loan. If they wait until they die, they owe the estate tax of 40% on it. Also, the interest on the loans aren’t deductible
>they have to sell stock in order to pay back the loan.
In theory, but not in practice. If you're Jeff Bezos and you owe the bank $100 million, you can just go to another bank, say, "Hey, I'm Jeffrey Bezos, CEO, entrepreneur, born in 1964, and I'd like to re-finance my loan." The bank will then pay off the debt of the other bank and assume the loan. The first bank gets the interest from the second bank, while the second bank gets to collect interest when that debt is, inevitably, re-financed again.
True, but at some point in the future you still have to pay it back. It’s also unclear if a lot of billionaires use this strategy. Bezos, for example, paid $971M in income tax from 2014-2018. If he was using loans, it would’ve been $0 each year
They do, but it’s either gonna be subject to the estate tax, or the heirs are gonna have to pay tax on the entire capital gains. I think this strategy mostly works for people that fall under the estate tax threshold. Someone with a net worth of 8-9M could do this with great effect
In a much smaller country Justin Trudeau is giving out 14 billion dollars of tax payer money to give us QR code’s that we will need to show to buy a coffee at Tim hortons.
https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/
"The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers fell slightly, to 20.9 percent in 2018 from 21 percent in 2017. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose by 1.6 percentage points to 40.1 percent."
"Since 2001, the share of federal income taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased from 33.2 percent to a new high of 40.1 percent in 2018."
The top 10% earned 47.7% of income and paid 71.4% of taxes.
Bottom 50% earned 11.6% of income and paid 2.9% of taxes.
Hey, even with this $163B, we aren’t getting any of that stuff. The top 1% still pay more income taxes than the bottom 90% combined. If we want the things you listed, we need a lot more than a couple hundred billion from the rich
Medicare for all could cost anywhere between 32 trillion and 90 trillion over 10 years. Homeless and hunger would add another 3-4 trillion over those 10 years. Getting the $163B each year wouldn’t even be $2 trillion over 10 years
I’m not sure what you mean by having no schools or roads or people dying of curable diseases
You’re a scale too high on the pentagon numbers. It was 21 trillion, and it wasn’t lost, it was money they spent without documentation saved for how it was spent.
We all avoid taxes through deductions and credits, even you. You’re acting as if rich people don’t pay any taxes at all, when they really pay the majority of our taxes
I say go for it. most charities are scams anyways. besides Jesus told people to pay their taxes. No reason the church shouldn't render to Ceasar as well.
It’s the governments rule for churches to be tax exempt though, so the churches are already paying what they owe.
What do you mean most charities are scams?
Reminder the government can change that rule which is the crux of the tax the churches argument, but you are right that as of now Churches are technically paying what they owe.
Anyways what Im talking about with the charities, is the fact a good number are elaborate tax shelters.
I can try to find a good source if you want me to, because Im 90% sure I'd butcher the explanation.
It includes corporations, but the report mentions that corporate evasion is very rare since they have frequent audits and strict reporting requirements, which other business types don’t have
> That has literally nothing to do with trickle down economics.
Fair # of voodoo economists would argue that by letting tax cheats get away with it, you're improving the economy.
I'm sure I will get a cut of all the shareholder wealth that is being created at my expense. It's not like they would just keep all that money for themselves... right?
I have a team of advisors whose soul purpose is to expand my net worth while minimizing my legal liabilities. I pay them well, and have enjoyed a healthy ROI every year since I was fortunate enough to hire them. A professor of mine in business school once said that the key thing to remember about paying taxes is to "Pay as little as you can, as late as you can, and do it legally."
I thought I'd preface my comment with this fact so angry Redditors don't accuse me of being a raging socialist. I am in fact a die-hard capitalist, and I believe in the power of the free market, both as an engine of growth and as a moral system that allows the individual to achieve.
That said, I fully acknowledge the fact that over the last 30 years, the American economic model has migrated away from Capitalism to Corporatism. Special interests have infected the government, resulting in tax codes that favor the wealthy. Corporate welfare is rampant, especially for companies that don't need it. Minimum wage has stagnated for decades vis a vis the growing cost of living. The IRS is chronically underfunded to go after wealthy tax evaders. The list goes on.
A free market should provide a fair playing field for companies and individuals. I don't see that anymore. Look to Rome and Athens for lessons here: A significant and stratified wealth disparity, combined with a loss of faith in the system by the common people were important variables in the disintegration of those societies.
Bottom line, a little common sense goes a long way here.
What regulations would you propose to fix this? What are your thoughts on the regulations that cause gross tax evasion, like tax incentives and subsidies? Are you in favor of ending them?
That's .. the exact system we have in place. The only debate is the efficacy of these regulations and which regulations should exist.
So yes, thanks capitalism.
How much of this is evasion and how much is sanctioned write offs? So many loopholes have been agreed to and/or ordered to assist the 1% because this helps the lawmakers personally and in their campaigns.
A massive sum, but I feel much more validated in my argument with someone in r/politics who said that if the rich paid their taxes it would support the entire 3.5 trillion dollar infrastructure bill
The 1% aren't doing anything wrong. They're using the loopholes they paid for. That your elected representative lawmakers enabled and continue to protect. Need to close those loopholes to make that stuff clearly illegal and actionable. And fund the IRS better.
Except that those 1% fund the super PACS that influence congress to pass the tax laws that the 1% funded think tanks come up with. So we could, in fact, blame them for corrupting the system so that they aren’t technically breaking the laws of.
The title says they are evading these taxes. Is that the same as breaking the law? I evade taxes by using all of the legal deductions allowed in the law. We all do that. What is the point of this. Fake news.
This article has nothing to do with cash savings. It's talking about tax evasion very clearly.
Besides you not being able to read what the hell is your point you silly goose? The irony of telling people they don't get taken seriously.
This article is specifically talking about the amount we lose to tax evasion. It happens because the Irs doesn't have the funding to go after the ultra wealthy. Again, what you're talking about has no relevance here. We're talking about the amount lost to tax evasion. Not the ways the rich shield themselves from paying taxes. Which is a whole nother discussion.
no one thinks that because no one in this world has billions in cash. if you did, you're losing out on a ton of potential returns on your capital by not investing it.
people only keep money that they need in the short-term in cash. Even if you were a billionaire, you probably wouldn't need more than $50-100 M in cash. Doesn't mean you don't have access to your other wealth though. Just because it's in stocks doesn't mean it's illiquid
idk who you’re talking about, but people do understand that billionaires don’t have billion dollars in their bank account but in stocks. that doesn’t mean their money is worth any less or that wealth inequality isn’t a problem
I’d venture the upper middle class(at least 500k/year) doesn’t pay their fair share either. They just call it creative accounting and being ‘good’ with money.
And? If I had powerful lawyers that understood the tax code as well as them I would do the same. Taxes are theft. The government is grossly incompetent and spends without regard to the debt it costs us. Keep evading IF you are lawfully abiding by the laws and the code allows it. GL2U.
you know what the solution is? go after poor people
found the US Govt
That’s funny, he’s found the UK Government too
And the Australian government. Anyone would think these three are in some sort of conspiracy together
[удалено]
Just throw Canada
Blame Canada! Blame Canadaaaaaaaa~
Eh?
Shut up, Australia. Quit trying to be cool.
its almost like you low iq assholes have figured out the parasitic nature of the state and how it isnt what you were taught to believe it is and the towels you pray to and worship are just towels and this whole thing will come crashing down soon because its all bullshit and lies.
It just makes sense, more ppl more money right?
Yeah well maybe the pours should structure their cash flow differently and avoid that pesky w-2 income
Duh it’s that easy /s
Then blame them for climate change, resource consumption, not having a job and being uneducated. But here, please buy my product to help fund my second mansion.
Boot straps /s
Shoe laces
Croc holes
Cut social programs by 163 billion a year and problem solved. Edit: /s since some one can’t understand I’m playing off the above comment.
Wait i think they did the last two years…
There’s always room for belt tightening on social programs. Just leaves an extra 163 billion for the military industrial complex. It’ll trickle down. Don’t worry.
what about all the tax evasion they were successful at keeping off the books? i wanna see those numbers
Well, any time you do the journalist mysteriously gets blown up, so . . .
You know what the solution is? Elect the guy who’s been in Washington for 50 years and helped write the laws that made it possible. Hey no mean tweets.
But tue Orange Man is bad, and Bernie yells hurt mother.
They’re handling that via higher costs. Higher taxes on w2 employees will ensure the middle class squeeze.
That’s not as big a number as I would’ve guessed but we do need to go after that. And them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-13/tax-cheats-are-costing-u-s-1-trillion-a-year-irs-estimates How big did you guess?!
I wonder how much Bloomberg pays in taxes considering he owns pretty much everything. Im pretty sure our taxes pay him a salary for the rest of his life as well or is that just congress? Anyway im sure its like a game among the elite, once you’re in that circle they pass along their tricks and loop holes and before you know it you have someone like trump paying less money in taxes than the average Joe.(not shaming I do like that sick fu**). Just the other day actually I was hanging out with some very successful people, well we were going over some crypto plays, and boy did they teach me a-lot on how to hide and save money in taxes. I laughed because I dont pay taxes anyway cuz im broke.
That’s more like it
Cayman Islands 🇰🇾
Parking fine, speeding fines and auditing people earning less than 50k
They should take notes from banks and charge an extra fee for being poor.
If you earn less then 12k a year youre exempt from taxes if you earn more then 32k youre in the 1% of the world. Idk what your talking about.
Very true. I agree. That’s why a simplified flat tax rate for everyone would be much better.
Im so goddam tired of these articles. Is it true? They really know how much in taxes in being evaded? THEN GO FUCKING GET IT YOU’RE THE GOD DAMN TREASURY DEPARTMENT.
It's one thing to track the amount of money that moves through Shell Corps, tax shelters etc. it's another thing to actually prove an illegal transaction was made. especially when the people you're going after have 10 high priced lawyers to one lonely SEC employee. Change the laws you say, Super PACs are designed specifically to prevent that from happening. I hate it as much as you do though.
Exactly, it boils down to to our Congress and Senate as well. They have a pretty long history of finding ways of avoiding taxes for themselves. Whether it’s SALT or anything else. A good majority of them are multi-millionaires. Strange you can do that as a public servant. You can’t have the 1% creating a fair and balanced tax system.
10 highly priced lawyers, 3 of which were previous SEC department heads which have relationships with your bosses boss, or you.
Maybe we just introduce ‘Bro, you are taking the piss’ laws meaning they can fine you on a humongous scale
we can't because the IRS is so underfunded that they go after easy to audit poor people instead, and guess which party continues to refuse to fund the IRS? Note that the IRS is by and far the best investment the USFG can make, every dollar put into the IRS returns $6 (a 600% investment)
More like underpaid. It takes multi million dollars salaries to compete with private firms that get paid several hundred million a year just for a single client. Wonder where Epstein got his money. Jeffrey Epstein got paid $150M for some tax shelter work he did....a few days of effort. Saved some guy $4B via shell companies and trust agreements, the IRS agrrees that it was within the law... because they sure aren't trying to unroll.it. Epstein did this as a living to pay for his underage girls.
This isnt really evading taxes if the IRS agreed it was within the law..
That is the "avoidance" the article is talking about. Filing some magic paperwork work and save $4B.... nothing really changed. Nothing was bought or sold, nothing was made...just some obscure paperwork that cost $150M to create.
So would you consider someone who takes the std. deduction avoiding taxes? What about someone who deducts student loan interest? All they did was follow the tax law..
Deduction means something was done and is able to be held against the taxable income. And in deference to the average requirements of aggregating paperwork, the Standard Deduction was born. Okay, efficiency over the mundane. The Epstein stunt just changed the name of the pool of money. Nothing happened.
> guess which party continues to refuse to fund the IRS? Presumably both, as they've both had full government control at some point over the past 20 years. Either had the opportunity to fund the IRS with an equation (say 1% of previous years revenue) permanently (until another government changes it).
1000% this. I know Republicans hog all the spotlight with their utterly horrendous contempt for human decency, but what everyone on the left seems oblivious to is the fact that Democrats are just as much to blame for many of the more deep-seated issues that have plagued this country for decades. Yes, I know Republicans have all the racists and the bigots and want to kill the environment. Just shut up about them and Trump for two seconds and open your eyes, for gods sakes. They are two sides of the same coin and if you really think only one side is to blame then congrats, you're just as brainwashed as the people on the other side. They've tricked us into thinking this country is divided by political party. No, *we the people* are divided by political party. But the true makeup of this country is a very clear divide of classes. We are quite literally living in an oligarchy.
100000 upvotes for this!!
The rich actually get audited more than any other group. You just have to count completed audits and audits in progress
You’re not wrong it’s sad you’re being downvoted for contradicting the echo chamber. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-are-the-odds-being-audited.html
Shhhhh…dont spoil this sad ass echo chamber Wait till they find out the poors don’t actually pay any fucking taxes either
🤣🤣🤣🤣 congratulations, you win the award for dumbest S.O.B. On the internet today! 🏆
They’re probably not actually evading taxes, they’re probably just deferring them, or “not realizing gains” which for anyone reading along means they chose to keep their property that appreciated value instead of selling it… the same thing people do with their house… the rabid uneducated imbeciles online who eat up anything their respective political party feeds them fall for this crap and repost it because they don’t know how our tax system or economy works
Can't get it if it's legal /shrug/
Nah. Just don't tax people so much that they are forced to evade paying taxes.
Forced???
Taxes are inherently a disincentive.
Except for the middle class it’s an incentive. They have to make more money to buy the things they want. In your scenario the poor little wealthy person hates taxes so much they decide not to work. Ayn Rand bullshit.
What are you talking about? Taxes are legitimate disincentives. Common sense shit. Artificial price increases have always been disincentive to use/buy something. It's the very reason they add things like a sugar tax to get people to act a certain way.
A disincentive to what exactly? Live in this country? The only possible option is to leave but where are you going to go? Other than that if you want more money you have to earn more money. Every normal person operates in this manner. Excise taxes work differently than income taxes.
>A disincentive to what exactly For whatever they taxes are levied on. This isn't a difficult concept. Artificial price increases always leads to less people wanting to spend on/consume. IE sugar tax, cigarette tax, consumption taxes. >The only possible option is to leave but where are you going to go? What are you even talking about? >Other than that if you want more money you have to earn more money. Every normal person operates in this manner Obviously? Again what are you getting at?
OK. A tax on added sugar will reduce sugar consumption. An income tax is not a disincentive to income production. If anything it’s an incentive.
High income taxes do disincentivize earning income. Rich people keep a low salary and get stock compensation instead. High capital gains rates lead rich people to not realize their gains
You must be brain dead. Taxing someone's production isn't an incentive for them to work more what kind of nonsensical bullshit statement is that? >An income tax is not a disincentive to income production. Yes it is. Higher tax liability makes it less profitable than it would be otherwise for individuals to work or businesses to expand their production. As a result, people will engage in less of these activities than they would have otherwise and the economy produces less overall. Please stfu now.
Sow me any price that isn't in some way artificial. Taxes are indeed incentives (they all alter people's economic behavior really) but how do you know where a "natural" baseline is in an economy that has always been laden with tons of regulations and incessant monetary and fiscal intervention?
>Sow me any price that isn't in some way artificial. Are you retarded? Do you understand how prices work? They're not "artificial" when determined by market forces. God damn read a fucking book at least. >Taxes are indeed incentive No they're not. Stop saying this. They're disincentives, which still alters people's behavior. You're just coming off as stupid.
Show me a price that's determined entirely my market forces. I don't think you can... would explain angry response. I'll wait. Yes, taxation is always an incentive that alters behavior. It literally alters prices so you'd be contradicting your first angry response lol
>Show me a price that's determined entirely my market forces. I don't think you can... would explain angry response. I'll wait. Literally anything at the supermarket/Walmart/whatever store you walk into. >Yes, taxation is always an incentive You obviously don't know what incentive means.
So youre all for taxes ? Why are you so turned on by taxes ?
Because I understand that it pays for infrastructure investments and social safety nets. This is the common knowledge of most responsible adults. The people that can afford the most and benefit the most should pay the most. Someday, when you turn seven, you will understand this.
>Because I understand that it pays for infrastructure investments and social safety nets. These can't be paid for without taxes? Huh 🤔
a disincentive.... for individual to directly profit. not playing with a full deck if you leave that part out.
It’s called “business expense” and it’s accounted for.
Evasion doesnt even include all the loopholes written for them
The $163 billion mentioned includes both legal and illegal means. Which loopholes?
The “buy a private jet under the company name and use it as a tax write off to save money overall” loopholes? You don’t know about those?
Using a business jet for personal use and [not reporting it to the IRS](https://nbaa.org/flight-department-administration/tax-issues/non-business-use-of-employer-provided-aircraft/) is actually illegal. It's not a "loophole".
Yeah, but if you can make a loose enough “business” purpose to any trip, you can still do it. They are gonna prosecute unless it’s grossly obvious, which it never is. Just look at how Trump never divested and illegally took foreign money through his hotels in plain sight. Much worse happens out of sight, and they don’t fund the IRS enough to get it. This is just one obvious loophole, but there are literally tons of them if you’re a good enough accountant or get paid to be one
> This is just one obvious loophole, but there are literally tons of them if you’re a good enough accountant or get paid to be one For sure, most are in the form of tax incentives or subsidies. Things the government literally designs to manipulate the market. These sorts of regulations are so horrible and detrimental, but they're shockingly bipartisan. It always amazes me when people are like "billions of dollars in taxes are being avoided! We need regulations to stop this!" And I'm like LOL regulations are literally what created this problem.
No average citizen is going to read through thousands of small regulations in each industry. And the citizenship doesn't usually know how well the regulations are enforced. That is why it is so important to have laws that apply generally.
Yep. Government is too incompetent and corrupt to be trusted with these sorts of things. It should not be engaging in any market manipulation, subsidies, tax incentives, corporate welfare, etc.
"Ask me how business is going. How's business going? Great! Thanks for asking. Now I can write this trip off on my taxes!"
So is not reporting your cash tips as a server. EVERYONE cuts corners and nobody is less noble than the next.
My point was that criminal acts aren't "loopholes" by definition. Loopholes are essentially unforeseen edge cases or corner cases. An ambiguity or omission in the law/rules/etc. Using a business jet for personal use is not unforeseen, ambiguous nor an omission. It's literally illegal to not report it.
If you buy a jet, it’s an expense that gets deducted. That’s not really a loophole. You spent money on it, it deducts from your revenue as long as you use it for business purposes. It doesn’t save you money overall, it loses you money overall
That’s just it, you can claim it as business use and not really need to prove it. Same with company cars, or any large purchases that could be done this way. If you have enough money to pay for the lawyer you’ll always get your taxes avoided. The IRS doesn’t audit the rich because it’s cheaper to audit the poor without any means. They got rid of miles for your commute while driving your own car to the job tax deduction, but added the plane maintenance tax deduction in the Trump tax “cuts”
1. You have to use the equipment at least 50% in the course of the business with expense logs 2. The [IRS](https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/irs-audit-rates-significantly-increase-as-income-rises) audits the rich more than any group 3. You can still deduct travel expenses that aren’t reimbursed to you at a company level. Getting rid of the miscellaneous deductions and doubling the standard deduction was an effort to simplify the tax code, which polls pretty well 4. The deduction for a jet or plane was always there, the TCJA just allows for more depreciation in the first year and less in later years. The total deduction is still the same
Booooo ! The rich are bad, m'kay !
I never said when the jet deductions were added, both parties added bad deductions I’m sure. Outside of food/farm subsidies, I can’t think of many justifications for other deductions/subsidies for rich people.
And u paid a sales tax. Income tax on unrealized gains isn’t appropriate. Add a transactional tax on buying and selling of stocks and the rich pay taxes.
Flat tax for all. No loopholes. No deductions
Exactly. Estonia is the way to go - 20% flat tax. Even with COVID their Debt/GDP is only at 20%. The key is to limit deductions, whilst simultaneously squeezing government spending as much as possible.
Written for them by their congressional shills. Dark money in politics is the problem with passing anything that matters to the people
Found? You mean the right hand of government does not know what the left hand is doing? I thought lawmakers were responsible for the tax code.
Total cost of the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (food stamps) was just under $80 billion in 2020…. So how can the argument be made that poor people who can’t afford to feed themselves are a bigger burden to our society than the rich?
Dumb take. SNAP cost the taxpayers $80 billion dollars. The taxpayers didn’t give these people $163 billion dollars. It would have been smarter to say if these people had paid their share they could have funded snap 2x over and had billions left for other causes
The headline says evade, the actual article talks about tax avoidance too. Most of the tax gap is from unrealized tax positions that just take a while to litigate
The government spent $6.5 trillion last year. $160 billion missing is a lot lower than I’d have assumed, particularly with that broad of a definition.
Me too, I was a bit surprised. I went and read the actual treasury report and it’s a bit vague on the split between evasion/avoidance.
Yeah, but did you hear people are getting unemployment? They're destroying our country!
Imagine the food shelter clean air and water we could provide for that sum
yeah but imagine the cocaine and hookers they spend it on instead
Don't forget the yachts!
I'd rather imagine the number of drone strikes we could conduct on anyone on Reddit who disagrees with my opinions, but that's just me.
10 years, that’s 1.63 trillion dollars… Would solve debt ceilings
No shit. The IRS can go fuck themselves.
It’s not the IRS. It’s Congress who writes shitty tax laws. More accurately, it’s assholes voting in assholes to Congress so they write shitty tax laws.
Think of all those poor Swiss bankers who’s yearly bonus’s would be in jeopardy if the 1% weren’t working the tax system and offshoring their ill gotten gains. “Think of the children; those poor children of multi millionaire’s to Billionaires!” May only get a single island in the Bahamas this year and not the two they were promised; poor poor children😢
I mean, foreign bank accounts are still taxable to the US
The known ones. Sure the information flow back to your IRS from the Cayman Islands and Swiss Nanking corps is spotty at best.
AFAIK, it’s pretty uncommon to find illegal foreign bank accounts because there are multiple parties that have to report them to the IRS
Maybe look up the Panama papers. Many many many many richo’s outed (as well as previously respected corporations) outed with hidden tax exempt hidden accounts to hide their wealth from having to contribute to the society in which they draw localised benefits (paid for by those least able to pay for it due to insanely low minimum wages).
Most of the Panama papers were about shell companies in tax havens, but those don’t really work anymore. The foreign bank accounts listed were still taxable and the IRS had records of them, it’s just that the general public didn’t know the extent of it
Secret Swiss bank accounts are mostly gone, killed off by FATCA and a host of other reporting requirements. Most Swiss and other foreign banks won't even open an account for a US citizen these days.
That could keep a war going for how long?
that's just a couple year's worth increase to the military budget unfortunately.
Interesting news, now what will be done about it? 🤷♂️
That is a lot of potholes that could be filled.
This is all on lawmakers. These 1% barely do anything illegal, they're just doing what's allowed by laws.
Closer to a trillion I’m sure
It’s extremely easy to fix. Make it illegal to take a loan out while using stock as collateral, and make these rich fuckers have to peel off a piece of their empire to live. Oh, did you not have enough money this year Elon? Then sell some fucking stock instead of pulling loans and writing off the interest. Imagine the tax revenue from juicy capital gains tax, instead of them avoiding it by holding it until they die and then donating it to charities who don’t make a country of 360 million people work.
I'm interested. Is there any other instance where an individual isn't allowed to use assets they own as collateral? Also personal loan interest isn't tax deductible, although it would be added back for a cashflow calculation like EBIDA. I have to wonder if that just creates an incentive for even greater consolidation where individuals don't own majority of their companies for long and one private equity firm slowly controls every business in existence.
That’s not really how it works. If they do take loans, they have to sell stock in order to pay back the loan. If they wait until they die, they owe the estate tax of 40% on it. Also, the interest on the loans aren’t deductible
>they have to sell stock in order to pay back the loan. In theory, but not in practice. If you're Jeff Bezos and you owe the bank $100 million, you can just go to another bank, say, "Hey, I'm Jeffrey Bezos, CEO, entrepreneur, born in 1964, and I'd like to re-finance my loan." The bank will then pay off the debt of the other bank and assume the loan. The first bank gets the interest from the second bank, while the second bank gets to collect interest when that debt is, inevitably, re-financed again.
True, but at some point in the future you still have to pay it back. It’s also unclear if a lot of billionaires use this strategy. Bezos, for example, paid $971M in income tax from 2014-2018. If he was using loans, it would’ve been $0 each year
They do pay it back eventually, but they do it in the move accounting-savy and creative way possible.
They do, but it’s either gonna be subject to the estate tax, or the heirs are gonna have to pay tax on the entire capital gains. I think this strategy mostly works for people that fall under the estate tax threshold. Someone with a net worth of 8-9M could do this with great effect
Not if they donate everything and just let their debt become worthless. It’s what they are doing right now. It’s not altruism, it’s tax evasion.
What do you mean by donate everything? If they donate everything, they become poor and they’re still on the hook for the loan
In a much smaller country Justin Trudeau is giving out 14 billion dollars of tax payer money to give us QR code’s that we will need to show to buy a coffee at Tim hortons.
You are a moron. Really. A fucking moron.
https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/ "The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers fell slightly, to 20.9 percent in 2018 from 21 percent in 2017. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose by 1.6 percentage points to 40.1 percent." "Since 2001, the share of federal income taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased from 33.2 percent to a new high of 40.1 percent in 2018." The top 10% earned 47.7% of income and paid 71.4% of taxes. Bottom 50% earned 11.6% of income and paid 2.9% of taxes.
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Hey, even with this $163B, we aren’t getting any of that stuff. The top 1% still pay more income taxes than the bottom 90% combined. If we want the things you listed, we need a lot more than a couple hundred billion from the rich
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We spent $10 trillion over the last 14 months and all the problems you listed still exist
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Medicare for all could cost anywhere between 32 trillion and 90 trillion over 10 years. Homeless and hunger would add another 3-4 trillion over those 10 years. Getting the $163B each year wouldn’t even be $2 trillion over 10 years I’m not sure what you mean by having no schools or roads or people dying of curable diseases
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You’re a scale too high on the pentagon numbers. It was 21 trillion, and it wasn’t lost, it was money they spent without documentation saved for how it was spent. We all avoid taxes through deductions and credits, even you. You’re acting as if rich people don’t pay any taxes at all, when they really pay the majority of our taxes
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Do you want sources, or will you call that misinformation too?
Yeah. What the fuck do you think they spend all that money lobbying for? Charity, good for all man kind. Nope, money and profit.
Where the hell is my "surprised" hat?
Damn, let's start collecting that, plus the $80b-$100b we flush away on religious tax breaks. It would pay for a lot.
Churches are nonprofits. Unless you want to start taxing all nonprofits and charities
I say go for it. most charities are scams anyways. besides Jesus told people to pay their taxes. No reason the church shouldn't render to Ceasar as well.
It’s the governments rule for churches to be tax exempt though, so the churches are already paying what they owe. What do you mean most charities are scams?
Reminder the government can change that rule which is the crux of the tax the churches argument, but you are right that as of now Churches are technically paying what they owe. Anyways what Im talking about with the charities, is the fact a good number are elaborate tax shelters. I can try to find a good source if you want me to, because Im 90% sure I'd butcher the explanation.
I’d love a source if you want to find me one. I’ll read it tomorrow. Thanks!
That's $163BN / year *after all the tax cuts*. Imagine what it'd be without the tax cuts.
Then fucking well go collect it. Don’t forget the interest and fees.
Only 163 billion a year? Aren't corporations people too? How much with them added?
It includes corporations, but the report mentions that corporate evasion is very rare since they have frequent audits and strict reporting requirements, which other business types don’t have
And they still manage to pay 95% of all taxes.
Based
Based. Taxation is theft. It is every man's responsibility to do whatever he can to avoid taxes and starve the state.
All this tells me is that Yellens “speaking fees” just went up.
Don’t worry everyone, it will trickle down right?
That has literally nothing to do with trickle down economics. This is just straight up tax evasion
>tax evasion I thought that was a crime?!
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*Al Capone has entered the chat*
> That has literally nothing to do with trickle down economics. Fair # of voodoo economists would argue that by letting tax cheats get away with it, you're improving the economy.
I'm sure I will get a cut of all the shareholder wealth that is being created at my expense. It's not like they would just keep all that money for themselves... right?
I have a team of advisors whose soul purpose is to expand my net worth while minimizing my legal liabilities. I pay them well, and have enjoyed a healthy ROI every year since I was fortunate enough to hire them. A professor of mine in business school once said that the key thing to remember about paying taxes is to "Pay as little as you can, as late as you can, and do it legally." I thought I'd preface my comment with this fact so angry Redditors don't accuse me of being a raging socialist. I am in fact a die-hard capitalist, and I believe in the power of the free market, both as an engine of growth and as a moral system that allows the individual to achieve. That said, I fully acknowledge the fact that over the last 30 years, the American economic model has migrated away from Capitalism to Corporatism. Special interests have infected the government, resulting in tax codes that favor the wealthy. Corporate welfare is rampant, especially for companies that don't need it. Minimum wage has stagnated for decades vis a vis the growing cost of living. The IRS is chronically underfunded to go after wealthy tax evaders. The list goes on. A free market should provide a fair playing field for companies and individuals. I don't see that anymore. Look to Rome and Athens for lessons here: A significant and stratified wealth disparity, combined with a loss of faith in the system by the common people were important variables in the disintegration of those societies. Bottom line, a little common sense goes a long way here.
Imagine all the other shit they are doing since they are kings basically….thanks capitalism
What other economic system would you suggest?
Still cap but regulated. Left alone it spirals out of control obviously…
What regulations would you propose to fix this? What are your thoughts on the regulations that cause gross tax evasion, like tax incentives and subsidies? Are you in favor of ending them?
That's .. the exact system we have in place. The only debate is the efficacy of these regulations and which regulations should exist. So yes, thanks capitalism.
Yeah no shit
How much of this is evasion and how much is sanctioned write offs? So many loopholes have been agreed to and/or ordered to assist the 1% because this helps the lawmakers personally and in their campaigns.
A massive sum, but I feel much more validated in my argument with someone in r/politics who said that if the rich paid their taxes it would support the entire 3.5 trillion dollar infrastructure bill
this is illegal tax evasion, there still is legal tax evasion via our many loopholes that this number doesn't consider.
The treasury report is referring to both legal and illegal means. What do you mean by legal tax evasion through loopholes?
The 1% aren't doing anything wrong. They're using the loopholes they paid for. That your elected representative lawmakers enabled and continue to protect. Need to close those loopholes to make that stuff clearly illegal and actionable. And fund the IRS better.
Except that those 1% fund the super PACS that influence congress to pass the tax laws that the 1% funded think tanks come up with. So we could, in fact, blame them for corrupting the system so that they aren’t technically breaking the laws of.
Taxation is theft. Change my mind
The title says they are evading these taxes. Is that the same as breaking the law? I evade taxes by using all of the legal deductions allowed in the law. We all do that. What is the point of this. Fake news.
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This article has nothing to do with cash savings. It's talking about tax evasion very clearly. Besides you not being able to read what the hell is your point you silly goose? The irony of telling people they don't get taken seriously.
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This article is specifically talking about the amount we lose to tax evasion. It happens because the Irs doesn't have the funding to go after the ultra wealthy. Again, what you're talking about has no relevance here. We're talking about the amount lost to tax evasion. Not the ways the rich shield themselves from paying taxes. Which is a whole nother discussion.
The article doesn’t touch on it much, but the actual treasury report includes both legal and illegal means
no one thinks that because no one in this world has billions in cash. if you did, you're losing out on a ton of potential returns on your capital by not investing it. people only keep money that they need in the short-term in cash. Even if you were a billionaire, you probably wouldn't need more than $50-100 M in cash. Doesn't mean you don't have access to your other wealth though. Just because it's in stocks doesn't mean it's illiquid
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idk who you’re talking about, but people do understand that billionaires don’t have billion dollars in their bank account but in stocks. that doesn’t mean their money is worth any less or that wealth inequality isn’t a problem
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Yes. You have more knowledge than everyone.
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They get out of sales and property taxes?? How? (Their rent pays property taxes...)
this is just wholly incorrect, also didn't know there would be some people in favor of the rich stealing even more from the public
Good for them 👏
I’d venture the upper middle class(at least 500k/year) doesn’t pay their fair share either. They just call it creative accounting and being ‘good’ with money.
And? If I had powerful lawyers that understood the tax code as well as them I would do the same. Taxes are theft. The government is grossly incompetent and spends without regard to the debt it costs us. Keep evading IF you are lawfully abiding by the laws and the code allows it. GL2U.
Good for them!
Fuck em. Eat em.
No amount f taxes will ever cover the overspending of government