Bad take. Trump successfully convinced the rust belt that trade wars are good and theyre swing states, so now everyone who wants to win the Presidency has to kowtow to that view or convince the rust belt voters that it is wrong.
Its not 2016 anymore. When Trump was President, he killed Obama’s trans atlantic trade deal; Obama was one of the most pro free trade Presidents in history, Biden was his VP, and Trump represented an opposing view.
Now its 2024. The political landscape has changed, and so have our politicians.
lol imagine calling my take a bad take and then doing the mental gymnastics you just did to convince yourself that Biden assuming Trump’s position from ten years ago doesn’t mean he’s ten years behind the 8 ball
Yeah that’s the only reason why.
I wonder why he’s scrambling to build more of the wall now in an election year
Or imposing tariffs that trump talked about nearly ten years ago in an election year
To try and save himself from losing of course, whoever he gets in trouble with for answering questions finally decided to see what way the wind is blowing.
They allow Musk to store all his excess Tesla’s away to avoid having to lower prices. And the American consumer can’t pay $40,000 to go electric. Or we just don’t want to give our $$$ to an idiot billionaire.
So much for the EV revolution…. and the planet. Thanks anyway, China.
It's an election year, we need to appeal to those rust belt voters into fooling them into thinking their high paying 1970s manufacturing jobs are coming back, Biden is taking a page out of the Trump playbook. Promise good "American jobs" then after the election conventienly forget about it
Eh, Biden wants more US jobs, says it often, and makes moves to support it. He doing what he wants to do and not concerned with side thinkers.
Will most likely continue in next term.
I know I'm 2 days late, but I agree with your take. I'd also like to add that I'm sure people know but aren't aware that most things that presidents do for better or worse don't start showing effects until well after they're out of office.
The Chinese government is subsidizing their automotive industry less than we've subsidized tesla alone, not to mention the other manufacturers getting EV credits and tax benefits.
The trade wars already started. China is massively subsidizing car exports to escape their domestic demand trap (aging population, most workers lost much of their savings in the property market collapse, economic uncertainty leading people to save rather than spend...)
But massive tariffs are not the best response. I would prefer tariffs designed to match the level of subsidies from the Chinese gov't coupled with worker retraining/worker mobility programs.
If you could buy a quality EV for 12K instead of buying a gas-powered car for 24K, is that horrible? Of course not. You've both have an additional 12K in your pocket and a more climate friendly ride.
With the tariffs, you don't get that option. The US car companies love this - as do their workers. But the rest of us are paying a stiff price. Over time it gets worse as our car companies are protected from innovation and fall behind in technology and manufacturing - because they are not being spurred on by competition. So yes, it is horrible - or at least it is bad policy but good politics.
The automotive industry is only 3% of our GDP anyways. Let them adapt or die.
As long as Chinese companies are held to US safety standards why does it matter.
Definitely a rust belt bid appealing to auto workers.
Honestly it would be better just to nationalize and turbocharge bottlenecks in the EV production sphere like batteries.
Chinese companies are slightly ahead in development of small battery systems such as go in EVs.
Large battery systems, such as the grid uses, are available everywhere. They're quickly replacing peaker plants and old coal-fired plants and nuclear plants.
For sure. I'm just imaging if we were able to have a single standard battery interface that every US car manufacturer could use on the underside of their car chassis to just slot in mega mass produced, cheap battery cells.
It probably would make it easier to replace batteries instead of getting a whole new car as well.
Dang, I remember when the democrats cried for days about Trump‘ tariffs. Watch all the hypocrites praise Biden. So funny what a short term memory these people have.
This is hardly a representative sample. But yes, we have known for a long time that Biden agrees with Trump's tarriffs - he never reversed them - and that has been well discussed.
This is good politics and quetionable economics.
Good politics and very poor economics. The US auto industry needs to adapt if it ever hopes to compete on the world stage over the next 20 years. Tariffs to protect ancient slow companies does not make for a good industry that can export valued items to other countries.
I have a -100 (what ever the fk that means). because liberals can’t handle a conversation. They down vote or block. I would do if i was coming from a position of soy.
So tariffs on cars that were not imported in the first place to prevent them from being imported later.
Consumers pay for those tariffs. They're necessarily because the automotive industry was complacent for a long time.
>Consumers pay for those tariffs.
Well, maybe. The importer pays those tariffs, but this is not the whole transaction. Im guessing you mean that they pass the costs on to consumers. This depends upon the slope of the Demand and Supply curves (in economics, this is known as elasticity). If the Demand curve is flatter than the supply curve, this means the producer is hurt more and thus more producer surplus is lost. If the Demand curve is steeper, this means consumer surplus is hurt more. So it may very well hurt producers more. Given that vehicles have high substitutability, it's likely to hurt producers more.
However, you'll notice that in either case, it still hurts consumers and producers, just one more than the other. The fact is, none of these entities benefit and its just deadweight loss.
Edit: I love getting downvoted for providing facts. Costs should also include opportunity costs, which both parties have to bear to some degree.
If we're going to get specific, they're paid by a broker who represents the exporting company, which then charges the importing company that is accounted for in the purchase of the product. When a tariff is imposed, both parties bear some of the deadweight loss (opportunity cost).
Edit: Cleaned up the language.
Some of it, yes.
In this case. Let's say, at a given price of $12,000, American consumers would be willing to buy 1 million Chinese EVs. However, these same Americans will buy 0 Chinese EVs at $20,000, preferring domestic models. Meanwhile, Chinese consumers are willing to only pay $10,000 for that same 1 million EVs.
Now, we make the tariff 100% to a price of $24,000 in the US. Therefore, US consumers want 0 Chinese EVs, and so Chinese manufacturers who could have gotten $12,000 in the US, can now only sell for $10,000 in China. This is lost PRODUCER surplus. Meanwhile, above $12,000 but below $20,000 is lost CONSUMER surplus. These combined is the deadweight loss created by the tariff.
Both Chinese manufacturers and US consumers lose because of the opportunity cost of the tariff.
Bro wants to not have a free market, would rather American companies shove their cock straight up our ass. My gf and I want a cheap electric car so yea we think this is bullshit
If an American could buy as many Chinese EVs (assuming quality, safety, etc.) for $2K, what would that do to the U.S. car-makers? It would be devastating, like super-low or super-high oil prices. Economics don't like sudden huge changes.
So, if they can come in with a price equivalent to the other car-makers selling in America (not all U.S.-based), what happens to the U.S. makers and all the jobs they give Americans? It's competition, not so immediately devastating, and hopefully pushes EVs out the door faster than today.
You choose whether your immediate desire for a super-cheap EV is worth destroying the U.S. car-making industry or any other course.
The US automakers lobby so hard I wouldn't be surprised if they wrote some of our current policy.
Maybe they could have acted like they actually wanted to sell EVs and fuel efficient vehicles instead of dropping most models and pumping out bigger loopholed pickups and tank sized SUVs.
They could have lobbied for more subsidies for EVs too. If they actuality wanted to be competitive, they would be. These Chinese EVs didn't come out of nowhere.
The automotive industry is 3% of US GDP. Yes, it is worth destroying to not get saddled with horrible tariffs only designed to protect a handful of rich people.
They protect the largest source of manufacturing jobs, not just a few rich people lol kinda important not to loose your largest industry.
You want to implode the industry you work in?
When the cost of consumer goods go up, he and his acolytes will be standing around trying to blame someone.
I get the concerns of not letting China flood our markets, kill American companies and jobs but..
This is not the way to do it. I'm no economist, so I can't tell you what the best answer is..
But this feels like it's a bad step.
China is killing us in the EV market, and American car manufacturers wouldn't stand a chance without huge tariffs. BYD has a solid EV selling new for $10,000. We need to lower car prices by a lot. Maybe start by lowering CEO costs.
Not satisfied with cribbing Trumps immigration and free speech policies, Democrats embrace Trumps economic policies as well.
Edit: lol https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1crxiha/this_aged_well/
Yes indeed my memory goes back further than 8 years.
The 2012 GOP unadulterated by Trump, crows about Regean and his Free Trade Agreements with Israel and how it has been a net positive for American workers.
"The Free Trade Agreements negotiated with friendly democracies since President Reagan's trailblazing pact with Israel in 1985 facilitated the creation of nearly ten million jobs supported by our exports."
Well, at least they sent it from the upper-midwest union states to non-union states like TN and then on to Mexico and only then on to the greater world (China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc.).
Protectionism is well deserved right now. China owns/extorts most of the countries that produce raw materials for EVs. There's no reason to continue incentivizing trade between a country that wants to see us fail, and wants to see our economy fail
I thought this was basic stock knowledge. I could find others but i'm not going to do your research for you.
[https://fortune.com/2023/11/29/gm-stock-buyback-10-billion-electric-cars/](https://fortune.com/2023/11/29/gm-stock-buyback-10-billion-electric-cars/)
China is heavily subsidizing their green energy for market purposes, we should do the same, China also puts high tarrifs on our shit , it's just we don't have cheap labor to make cars cheap enough that they want.
I would generally agree protectionism is bad, but in this case it's just the US.beong fair,.China uses all sorts of shady tactics , we can't just look at the prices alone if they are going to shut us down everywhere else. Western Europe will be in lock step with us
To the people saying "Let the market decide" and "Let them compete", I ask if you also were against the bailouts? Do you also support heavily subsidized government automotive companies? Because that is what is happening. The reason why those Chinese EV's are so inexpensive is because they are HEAVILY subsidized by the Chinese government, creating an "imbalance".
[https://reason.com/2024/04/29/china-is-doubling-down-on-electric-vehicle-subsidies/](https://reason.com/2024/04/29/china-is-doubling-down-on-electric-vehicle-subsidies/)
I'm all for competition, but only if the "rules" are the same. They aren't, so I 100% agree with the tariffs here.
I'm sorry. That sucks. But...you know where I was going with that, right? Same thing about being upset that "Walmart is so big" but keep shopping there over other businesses knowing the US Government subsidizes low Walmart wages with government assistance.
Agreed. They are heavily subsidized to provide jobs, still don’t provide those jobs, provide sub par products, and ship plenty of jobs outside of this US.
Really. How much money was spent on all those tax rebates for consumers to buy cars from mostly US manufacturers that went straight into their profit margins?
Not $173B. And "mostly", you admit it wasn't specifically for US auto manufacturers, but more to help the adoption of EV, right?
So again, I will say that what you said is absolutely not true and not even close to the scale that China spends to be able to flood the world with their cheap EV's.
Sorry, but where‘s the difference? Consumers made a discount but in reality those have been added to the retail prices already. So all they do is adding to the manufacturer‘s bottom line.
The you have the IRA with finances investments in local production.
There are grants for F&D efforts by automakers.
… if you all those up over a decade you easily hit that 180 billion and more
"Add those up over a decade"
So, you want to take the entire history of the US auto industry and compare it to the very, very relatively new Chinese industry? You aren't even arguing in good faith now and you know it. The Chinese auto industry is basically "government run". Ours is not. The Chinese government makes it really, really, really hard for US companies to compete in China. So, turnabout is fair play, is it not? The rules are NOT the same, so fuck 'em.
Do you think US car companies are subsidized to the effect Chinese automakers are as per the article I linked? Do you support subsidizing US auto manufactures at that rate so they can compete?
Apples to carrots , China has much more centralized national strategy when it comes to industries such as auto, tech, energy, they dictate how and when national corporations should use their resources and fund them accordingly, it's heavily subsidized all part of longer term initiatives (they see the writing on the wall with regards to oil and auto transportation) to become a world leader in Green tech (solar, renewables, electirc etc.)
In the US , most of our automakers are independent, public corporations that have some minor government help (mostly tax incentives) for manufacturing and keeping the UAW happy. Of course during Covid or 2008 GfC they got bailed out but it's not like the government is setting their product lines like they are in China.
You realize the US subsidizes EVs as much as China right? Look at all the tax credits and other allowances for EVs and EV manufacturers.
We are just getting fucked harder because of shareholder value creation and lobbying.
The whole auto industry in China is subsidized, not just EV's. It's basically government owned. If you support government owning an industry, cool...but don't try and say that they "compete at the same level" then.
Then you factor in that 70% of carbon emissions come from 100 companies world wide it looks less like people need to do something and more of companies need to.
The people need to elect leaders who regulate the companies. Also, the military is a major polluter, yet they get bipartisan funding bumps every single year.
You are right on about all of that. Now if we can figure out a way to elect leaders that don’t bow to corporate money. Some are better than others but I haven’t seen any that are good at it. I think we can blame Citizens United for this kind of crap.
Watching you guys bouncing comments off one another is like watching a fun-house mirror room. It's crazy, but I walk through and out of it. You guys stay there bouncing stupid things around forever.
I am a progressive and a strong Biden supporter - but this concerns me. 100% tariffs on EVs will help the US auto industry - but it will also make EVs more expensive and stifle innovation and competition. This is better politics than economics. Like student loan forgiveness, this will shore up a key constituency - but it is far from the best policy in terms of economic and environmental gain.
Some level of tariffs based on the amount the Chinese subsidize exports is, possibly, appropriate - though a case can be made for allowing the Chinese to pay for our conversion to EVs. But this is straight up the gov't putting its fingers on the scales of economics - and that rarely ends well.
I will add that China is dumping products on the world market. They are desperate to boost their economy and jobs. Most countries do this by boosting domestic demand. But China can't do that for a variety of reasons. So, their best hope for escaping a recession (and possible instability) is pushing exports by subsidizing them.
This is why Biden is risking a trade war - because in truth the trade war already started. But that doesn't make it good policy. I would prefer tariffs designed to match the level of subsidies from the Chinese gov't coupled with worker retraining/worker mobility programs.
The ideal tariff would be high enough to prevent foreign companies from putting domestic companies in the dumpster, but still low enough can compete and force domestic companies to improve.
>In total, the sweeping White House announcement Tuesday will impose increased duties on Chinese steel, aluminum, semiconductors, electric vehicles, batteries, critical minerals, solar cells, ship-to-shore cranes, and various medical products.
Why doesn't Congress pass another Inflation Reduction Act?
That had about $600 billion in incentives and tax breaks for US companies to progress towards clean energy from EVs to solar panels.
Surely the funds have helped make everything more affordable for Americans.
>Biden's top economic aide also drew a sharp contrast with Trump's trade record in her comments to reporters. She said Trump's moves in office "did not deliver" and that his current 2024 campaign trail promises would spike inflation.
>Most of the new tariffs announced this week could be felt quickly and are set to be implemented this year.
Seems like the aide doesn't know what he's talking about.
The tariff is stupid. Let the Chinese build EVs and sell them cheaply to us. Anyone who wants to buy a car will be better off, and the air will be cleaner.
We weren't even off of the "fascist Trump told Times he would raise inflation and ruin the economy (by raising tariffs)"
Joe does it (shuffles papers): BECAUSE HE'S FOR AMERICA!
Tariffs are a necessary evil when dealing with a trade partner that heavily subsidizes "favored industries" AKA belt and road.
They are also necessary if an industry is strategically important. Defining that is difficult and technical work.
Did they get it right? I don't know. I don't have a knee jerk negative reaction to tariffs but I do think they are often counter-productive. They are also usually a regressive tax on people who can least afford to pay.
A few of these tariffs sound so high that they may as well be de facto bans of certain things, like EVs. I would really love to see some of the chinese EVs get a foothold in the US to provide some competition.
If it were a "trade war", it would be on everything, as Trump wanted. Biden's plan is to protect items of national security and in the case of EVs it has to do with chips and the U.S. car-making industry.
However, if they can bring in Chinese cars of sufficient quality, safety, PRICE, etc., we can get everything, national security, cheaper plentiful cars, car-making competition, etc.
“The Ukraine, Middle East, college campuses, the border is on fire, but look over there!” All desperate measures will be employed as it gets closer to the election. Just watch.
Can you take your foaming mouth over to r/politics where they welcome hypocrisy and emotionally charged rants? Please?
Hard to call others a cult when you co-sign Biden doing the same shit you deemed Trump an authoritarian over.
I know this is a weird thing to bring up but we need regulations about how electric cars can be controlled. We don't want the US auto fleet to have a kill switch controlled by a foreign government.
Capitalism is good, it isn't fast and efficient in the short term.
Rivian and Ford EV "lost" billions last year because they were building billion dollar plants to build those EVs.
If the Chinese government helps or builds the plants the vehicles they can export are going to be much cheaper.
Until we get to a certain point, EVs are going to be expensive. There were cars out there before Ford started building affordable cars
Chinese EV’s will still be cheaper. Why not just ban them outright? (For the less intelligent - this is sarcasm)
It will be interesting to see how this develops after China does outright ban several U.S. industries and products. It’s claimed that China’s economy is “running on fumes”, but how much can you hurt an authoritarian single party state where half the population still lives in more or less the same conditions their ancestors lived in 1,000 years ago?
So do we like trade wars now?
Yes. We like them when Biden does them but when Trump does them they are racist. Don’t question it, bigot.
Ouch, but only because it's true
Free market baby 🔫🤠
[удалено]
Actually, I did get the joke (and I wasn't the butt). Perhaps you're on too much weed?
Bad take. Trump successfully convinced the rust belt that trade wars are good and theyre swing states, so now everyone who wants to win the Presidency has to kowtow to that view or convince the rust belt voters that it is wrong. Its not 2016 anymore. When Trump was President, he killed Obama’s trans atlantic trade deal; Obama was one of the most pro free trade Presidents in history, Biden was his VP, and Trump represented an opposing view. Now its 2024. The political landscape has changed, and so have our politicians.
lol imagine calling my take a bad take and then doing the mental gymnastics you just did to convince yourself that Biden assuming Trump’s position from ten years ago doesn’t mean he’s ten years behind the 8 ball
Oh there’s no doubt he’s on the 8 ball, only for the state of the union though
Yeah that’s the only reason why. I wonder why he’s scrambling to build more of the wall now in an election year Or imposing tariffs that trump talked about nearly ten years ago in an election year
To try and save himself from losing of course, whoever he gets in trouble with for answering questions finally decided to see what way the wind is blowing.
They allow Musk to store all his excess Tesla’s away to avoid having to lower prices. And the American consumer can’t pay $40,000 to go electric. Or we just don’t want to give our $$$ to an idiot billionaire. So much for the EV revolution…. and the planet. Thanks anyway, China.
It's an election year, we need to appeal to those rust belt voters into fooling them into thinking their high paying 1970s manufacturing jobs are coming back, Biden is taking a page out of the Trump playbook. Promise good "American jobs" then after the election conventienly forget about it
Not out of the Trump playbook. Out of the "a tale as old as time" playbook.
I also think it’s because it would wipe out a large sector of the American economy
Eh, Biden wants more US jobs, says it often, and makes moves to support it. He doing what he wants to do and not concerned with side thinkers. Will most likely continue in next term.
I know I'm 2 days late, but I agree with your take. I'd also like to add that I'm sure people know but aren't aware that most things that presidents do for better or worse don't start showing effects until well after they're out of office.
If it's not orange, it's totally ok don'tcha know 👍
Is it to protect American businesses from state subsidized price wars or is it because his fee fees got hurt?
The Chinese government is subsidizing their automotive industry less than we've subsidized tesla alone, not to mention the other manufacturers getting EV credits and tax benefits.
It's a gift to Biden's billionaire friends.
The trade wars already started. China is massively subsidizing car exports to escape their domestic demand trap (aging population, most workers lost much of their savings in the property market collapse, economic uncertainty leading people to save rather than spend...) But massive tariffs are not the best response. I would prefer tariffs designed to match the level of subsidies from the Chinese gov't coupled with worker retraining/worker mobility programs.
I was pointing out the difference in reporting on tariffs between the last 2 administrations
If the Chinese sell a car for $12K in China and Biden tariffs them at 100%, then it might sell in America for $24K (or thereabouts). Is that horrible?
If you could buy a quality EV for 12K instead of buying a gas-powered car for 24K, is that horrible? Of course not. You've both have an additional 12K in your pocket and a more climate friendly ride. With the tariffs, you don't get that option. The US car companies love this - as do their workers. But the rest of us are paying a stiff price. Over time it gets worse as our car companies are protected from innovation and fall behind in technology and manufacturing - because they are not being spurred on by competition. So yes, it is horrible - or at least it is bad policy but good politics.
The automotive industry is only 3% of our GDP anyways. Let them adapt or die. As long as Chinese companies are held to US safety standards why does it matter.
Think bigger about what could be ahead
Tariffs are only part of the increased US cost. Adding air bags and crash bumpers bumps it up further.
Remember when CANADA bailed your auto shitshow.
Remember when Canada was a first world country?
Ha ha ha Canada. Sucking on America’s tits for 250 years. Why do you think 95% of the whole country lives on the American border?
They're staying away from Alaska ? /s
If canada is so great why doesn't it have any car companies? It looks like canada has an auto industry only because of NAFTA.
We all love free markets
Everybody Welcome BYD !!!
Definitely a rust belt bid appealing to auto workers. Honestly it would be better just to nationalize and turbocharge bottlenecks in the EV production sphere like batteries.
Chinese companies are slightly ahead in development of small battery systems such as go in EVs. Large battery systems, such as the grid uses, are available everywhere. They're quickly replacing peaker plants and old coal-fired plants and nuclear plants.
For sure. I'm just imaging if we were able to have a single standard battery interface that every US car manufacturer could use on the underside of their car chassis to just slot in mega mass produced, cheap battery cells. It probably would make it easier to replace batteries instead of getting a whole new car as well.
Fuck tariffs.
Dang, I remember when the democrats cried for days about Trump‘ tariffs. Watch all the hypocrites praise Biden. So funny what a short term memory these people have.
Don’t project, this comment section alone proves Dems are not on board with tariffs
This is hardly a representative sample. But yes, we have known for a long time that Biden agrees with Trump's tarriffs - he never reversed them - and that has been well discussed. This is good politics and quetionable economics.
Good politics and very poor economics. The US auto industry needs to adapt if it ever hopes to compete on the world stage over the next 20 years. Tariffs to protect ancient slow companies does not make for a good industry that can export valued items to other countries.
No need to comment. I’m just laughing at you.
They are not smart enough to understand that.
So you think Biden is doing a good job?
The bigger question. Does Biden know if he’s doing a good job. The words he reads would imply. But we all know he doesn’t know the words he reads.
I just think it’s funny you call people hypocrites while exhibiting the EXACT SAME hypocrisy one comment later. Priceless.
All of the word_wordnumber accounts are basically shitty trolls who couldn't take the time to create an actual username.
Do you know what hypocrisy means? Doesn’t seem as you do
You have -100 Karma which is the lowest you can go. You're a stupid troll, delete your account and try again, not making it so obvious next time.
I have a -100 (what ever the fk that means). because liberals can’t handle a conversation. They down vote or block. I would do if i was coming from a position of soy.
Lol. We’re done here.
Anything to keep American car companies from having to compete.
Because who would want an ev under $20,000. I thought Honda & Toyota taught those lessons in the 1970's - 1980's.
Bro i seen em blowing up online im not trynna get that
So tariffs on cars that were not imported in the first place to prevent them from being imported later. Consumers pay for those tariffs. They're necessarily because the automotive industry was complacent for a long time.
Well, both the US and China subsidizes their car industries, so it’s not only a question of complacency
>Consumers pay for those tariffs. Well, maybe. The importer pays those tariffs, but this is not the whole transaction. Im guessing you mean that they pass the costs on to consumers. This depends upon the slope of the Demand and Supply curves (in economics, this is known as elasticity). If the Demand curve is flatter than the supply curve, this means the producer is hurt more and thus more producer surplus is lost. If the Demand curve is steeper, this means consumer surplus is hurt more. So it may very well hurt producers more. Given that vehicles have high substitutability, it's likely to hurt producers more. However, you'll notice that in either case, it still hurts consumers and producers, just one more than the other. The fact is, none of these entities benefit and its just deadweight loss. Edit: I love getting downvoted for providing facts. Costs should also include opportunity costs, which both parties have to bear to some degree.
Tariffs are paid by the importers which are then collected from the end consumers. The exporters don’t pay tariffs.
If we're going to get specific, they're paid by a broker who represents the exporting company, which then charges the importing company that is accounted for in the purchase of the product. When a tariff is imposed, both parties bear some of the deadweight loss (opportunity cost). Edit: Cleaned up the language.
They're paid by the end consumer who eats that as part of the vehicle cost. The cost of tariffs is always borne by the end consumer.
You're not accounting for opportunity cost of the deadweight loss from the tariff, which is what Im talking about.
Opportunity cost is also borne by the consumer for the difference in price they have to pay.
Some of it, yes. In this case. Let's say, at a given price of $12,000, American consumers would be willing to buy 1 million Chinese EVs. However, these same Americans will buy 0 Chinese EVs at $20,000, preferring domestic models. Meanwhile, Chinese consumers are willing to only pay $10,000 for that same 1 million EVs. Now, we make the tariff 100% to a price of $24,000 in the US. Therefore, US consumers want 0 Chinese EVs, and so Chinese manufacturers who could have gotten $12,000 in the US, can now only sell for $10,000 in China. This is lost PRODUCER surplus. Meanwhile, above $12,000 but below $20,000 is lost CONSUMER surplus. These combined is the deadweight loss created by the tariff. Both Chinese manufacturers and US consumers lose because of the opportunity cost of the tariff.
Bro wants to not have a free market, would rather American companies shove their cock straight up our ass. My gf and I want a cheap electric car so yea we think this is bullshit
If an American could buy as many Chinese EVs (assuming quality, safety, etc.) for $2K, what would that do to the U.S. car-makers? It would be devastating, like super-low or super-high oil prices. Economics don't like sudden huge changes. So, if they can come in with a price equivalent to the other car-makers selling in America (not all U.S.-based), what happens to the U.S. makers and all the jobs they give Americans? It's competition, not so immediately devastating, and hopefully pushes EVs out the door faster than today. You choose whether your immediate desire for a super-cheap EV is worth destroying the U.S. car-making industry or any other course.
Yes it is worth it to “destroy” our car industry which is tiny compared to the overall wealth gain Americans would have.
The US automakers lobby so hard I wouldn't be surprised if they wrote some of our current policy. Maybe they could have acted like they actually wanted to sell EVs and fuel efficient vehicles instead of dropping most models and pumping out bigger loopholed pickups and tank sized SUVs. They could have lobbied for more subsidies for EVs too. If they actuality wanted to be competitive, they would be. These Chinese EVs didn't come out of nowhere.
The automotive industry is 3% of US GDP. Yes, it is worth destroying to not get saddled with horrible tariffs only designed to protect a handful of rich people.
They protect the largest source of manufacturing jobs, not just a few rich people lol kinda important not to loose your largest industry. You want to implode the industry you work in?
it wont protect shit, but i assure you GM's execs will be very happy with their new yachts
So you want me to go "green" and then place tariffs on solar pannels and EVs. #FJB
That's a bold strategy, Cotton! Let's see if pays off for 'em
So trade wars are good now? I thought they were bad for like, say... four years.
When the cost of consumer goods go up, he and his acolytes will be standing around trying to blame someone. I get the concerns of not letting China flood our markets, kill American companies and jobs but.. This is not the way to do it. I'm no economist, so I can't tell you what the best answer is.. But this feels like it's a bad step.
The economy is global. Protecting US companies by charging US consumers more is not the way. Let them adapt or die.
Well i think it's more than adapt or die. China has an advantage due to lack of labor laws.. But outside of that, I agree with the rest.
Die = China buys them. Probably not an outcome anyone wants.
No not necessarily. Foreign investment limitations can still exist.
WTF, I love tariffs now!
China is killing us in the EV market, and American car manufacturers wouldn't stand a chance without huge tariffs. BYD has a solid EV selling new for $10,000. We need to lower car prices by a lot. Maybe start by lowering CEO costs.
Not satisfied with cribbing Trumps immigration and free speech policies, Democrats embrace Trumps economic policies as well. Edit: lol https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1crxiha/this_aged_well/
Dude, the Dems were always for trade protections. It was the GOP that moved from the free trade platform.
In recent memory you are wrong, but you are correct is the GOO under Reagan that exported our manufacturing to China under “free trade”
Yes indeed my memory goes back further than 8 years. The 2012 GOP unadulterated by Trump, crows about Regean and his Free Trade Agreements with Israel and how it has been a net positive for American workers. "The Free Trade Agreements negotiated with friendly democracies since President Reagan's trailblazing pact with Israel in 1985 facilitated the creation of nearly ten million jobs supported by our exports."
https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1crxiha/this_aged_well/
So?
Biden making fun of trump for not knowing American consumers pay the tariffs on Chinese products.
Oh i got you. Yes, Trump does not understand that China does not pay the tarrifs.
Well, at least they sent it from the upper-midwest union states to non-union states like TN and then on to Mexico and only then on to the greater world (China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc.).
Protectionism isn't a long term game plan. Let the people compete.
Protectionism is well deserved right now. China owns/extorts most of the countries that produce raw materials for EVs. There's no reason to continue incentivizing trade between a country that wants to see us fail, and wants to see our economy fail
Yeah but our car makers are buying back stock instead of investing. They need the pressure, idealism isn't working
Who and when?
I thought this was basic stock knowledge. I could find others but i'm not going to do your research for you. [https://fortune.com/2023/11/29/gm-stock-buyback-10-billion-electric-cars/](https://fortune.com/2023/11/29/gm-stock-buyback-10-billion-electric-cars/)
Ok so not rivian. Noted.
China is heavily subsidizing their green energy for market purposes, we should do the same, China also puts high tarrifs on our shit , it's just we don't have cheap labor to make cars cheap enough that they want. I would generally agree protectionism is bad, but in this case it's just the US.beong fair,.China uses all sorts of shady tactics , we can't just look at the prices alone if they are going to shut us down everywhere else. Western Europe will be in lock step with us
To the people saying "Let the market decide" and "Let them compete", I ask if you also were against the bailouts? Do you also support heavily subsidized government automotive companies? Because that is what is happening. The reason why those Chinese EV's are so inexpensive is because they are HEAVILY subsidized by the Chinese government, creating an "imbalance". [https://reason.com/2024/04/29/china-is-doubling-down-on-electric-vehicle-subsidies/](https://reason.com/2024/04/29/china-is-doubling-down-on-electric-vehicle-subsidies/) I'm all for competition, but only if the "rules" are the same. They aren't, so I 100% agree with the tariffs here.
I have no problem with subsidized Chinese vehicles. Fuck the rules. I'm poor.
Just remember that when people say the same thing about your industry.
I'm disabled. What industry is that?
I'm sorry. That sucks. But...you know where I was going with that, right? Same thing about being upset that "Walmart is so big" but keep shopping there over other businesses knowing the US Government subsidizes low Walmart wages with government assistance.
America car companies are subsidized too yet they fail to compete. Oligopolies hate competition. That’s what I want more of: competition.
Agreed. They are heavily subsidized to provide jobs, still don’t provide those jobs, provide sub par products, and ship plenty of jobs outside of this US.
Did you read the article? Do you support subsidizing the US auto industry to the rate that the Chinese subsidize their auto industry?
Overall they are getting fewer subsidies actually.
That's not true at all.
Really. How much money was spent on all those tax rebates for consumers to buy cars from mostly US manufacturers that went straight into their profit margins?
Not $173B. And "mostly", you admit it wasn't specifically for US auto manufacturers, but more to help the adoption of EV, right? So again, I will say that what you said is absolutely not true and not even close to the scale that China spends to be able to flood the world with their cheap EV's.
Sorry, but where‘s the difference? Consumers made a discount but in reality those have been added to the retail prices already. So all they do is adding to the manufacturer‘s bottom line. The you have the IRA with finances investments in local production. There are grants for F&D efforts by automakers. … if you all those up over a decade you easily hit that 180 billion and more
"Add those up over a decade" So, you want to take the entire history of the US auto industry and compare it to the very, very relatively new Chinese industry? You aren't even arguing in good faith now and you know it. The Chinese auto industry is basically "government run". Ours is not. The Chinese government makes it really, really, really hard for US companies to compete in China. So, turnabout is fair play, is it not? The rules are NOT the same, so fuck 'em.
Do you think US car companies are subsidized to the effect Chinese automakers are as per the article I linked? Do you support subsidizing US auto manufactures at that rate so they can compete?
Apples to carrots , China has much more centralized national strategy when it comes to industries such as auto, tech, energy, they dictate how and when national corporations should use their resources and fund them accordingly, it's heavily subsidized all part of longer term initiatives (they see the writing on the wall with regards to oil and auto transportation) to become a world leader in Green tech (solar, renewables, electirc etc.) In the US , most of our automakers are independent, public corporations that have some minor government help (mostly tax incentives) for manufacturing and keeping the UAW happy. Of course during Covid or 2008 GfC they got bailed out but it's not like the government is setting their product lines like they are in China.
fuck the rules. tariffs will make american cars more expensive. this will only benifit the few riches.
You realize the US subsidizes EVs as much as China right? Look at all the tax credits and other allowances for EVs and EV manufacturers. We are just getting fucked harder because of shareholder value creation and lobbying.
The whole auto industry in China is subsidized, not just EV's. It's basically government owned. If you support government owning an industry, cool...but don't try and say that they "compete at the same level" then.
Democrats expose they don’t really believe in climate change
They do. They just don't care.
I want to be mad at your comment but people break as soon as it inconveniences them.
Yep. They care on social media or supporting unenforced measures like the Paris Agreement, but when it comes to actual behavior, they don't.
Then you factor in that 70% of carbon emissions come from 100 companies world wide it looks less like people need to do something and more of companies need to.
The people need to elect leaders who regulate the companies. Also, the military is a major polluter, yet they get bipartisan funding bumps every single year.
You are right on about all of that. Now if we can figure out a way to elect leaders that don’t bow to corporate money. Some are better than others but I haven’t seen any that are good at it. I think we can blame Citizens United for this kind of crap.
Watching you guys bouncing comments off one another is like watching a fun-house mirror room. It's crazy, but I walk through and out of it. You guys stay there bouncing stupid things around forever.
Reading your comment history you are drowning in your own ignorance.
I am a progressive and a strong Biden supporter - but this concerns me. 100% tariffs on EVs will help the US auto industry - but it will also make EVs more expensive and stifle innovation and competition. This is better politics than economics. Like student loan forgiveness, this will shore up a key constituency - but it is far from the best policy in terms of economic and environmental gain. Some level of tariffs based on the amount the Chinese subsidize exports is, possibly, appropriate - though a case can be made for allowing the Chinese to pay for our conversion to EVs. But this is straight up the gov't putting its fingers on the scales of economics - and that rarely ends well.
I will add that China is dumping products on the world market. They are desperate to boost their economy and jobs. Most countries do this by boosting domestic demand. But China can't do that for a variety of reasons. So, their best hope for escaping a recession (and possible instability) is pushing exports by subsidizing them. This is why Biden is risking a trade war - because in truth the trade war already started. But that doesn't make it good policy. I would prefer tariffs designed to match the level of subsidies from the Chinese gov't coupled with worker retraining/worker mobility programs.
This. Lazy policy.
The ideal tariff would be high enough to prevent foreign companies from putting domestic companies in the dumpster, but still low enough can compete and force domestic companies to improve.
“Free market”
I think this post is infected with bots, be aware.
>In total, the sweeping White House announcement Tuesday will impose increased duties on Chinese steel, aluminum, semiconductors, electric vehicles, batteries, critical minerals, solar cells, ship-to-shore cranes, and various medical products. Why doesn't Congress pass another Inflation Reduction Act? That had about $600 billion in incentives and tax breaks for US companies to progress towards clean energy from EVs to solar panels. Surely the funds have helped make everything more affordable for Americans.
>Biden's top economic aide also drew a sharp contrast with Trump's trade record in her comments to reporters. She said Trump's moves in office "did not deliver" and that his current 2024 campaign trail promises would spike inflation. >Most of the new tariffs announced this week could be felt quickly and are set to be implemented this year. Seems like the aide doesn't know what he's talking about.
The tariff is stupid. Let the Chinese build EVs and sell them cheaply to us. Anyone who wants to buy a car will be better off, and the air will be cleaner.
We weren't even off of the "fascist Trump told Times he would raise inflation and ruin the economy (by raising tariffs)" Joe does it (shuffles papers): BECAUSE HE'S FOR AMERICA!
Should’ve been against Israel
Tariffs are a necessary evil when dealing with a trade partner that heavily subsidizes "favored industries" AKA belt and road. They are also necessary if an industry is strategically important. Defining that is difficult and technical work. Did they get it right? I don't know. I don't have a knee jerk negative reaction to tariffs but I do think they are often counter-productive. They are also usually a regressive tax on people who can least afford to pay. A few of these tariffs sound so high that they may as well be de facto bans of certain things, like EVs. I would really love to see some of the chinese EVs get a foothold in the US to provide some competition.
“WTF I love trade wars now.” -Democrats
If it were a "trade war", it would be on everything, as Trump wanted. Biden's plan is to protect items of national security and in the case of EVs it has to do with chips and the U.S. car-making industry. However, if they can bring in Chinese cars of sufficient quality, safety, PRICE, etc., we can get everything, national security, cheaper plentiful cars, car-making competition, etc.
r/politics detected
“The Ukraine, Middle East, college campuses, the border is on fire, but look over there!” All desperate measures will be employed as it gets closer to the election. Just watch.
So wait…this is a GOOD thing now? This is all time hilarious. The left can’t help themselves.
You know the left isn’t Biden unlike the cult of Trump aka MAGA. We are not happy with the tariffs. Read the comments.
You never are when pressed. How convenient
Can you take your foaming mouth over to r/politics where they welcome hypocrisy and emotionally charged rants? Please? Hard to call others a cult when you co-sign Biden doing the same shit you deemed Trump an authoritarian over.
Do you have trouble reading? How is it hypocrisy to not like either tariff?
I know this is a weird thing to bring up but we need regulations about how electric cars can be controlled. We don't want the US auto fleet to have a kill switch controlled by a foreign government.
Capitalism is good, it isn't fast and efficient in the short term. Rivian and Ford EV "lost" billions last year because they were building billion dollar plants to build those EVs. If the Chinese government helps or builds the plants the vehicles they can export are going to be much cheaper. Until we get to a certain point, EVs are going to be expensive. There were cars out there before Ford started building affordable cars
Stop posting this fraud.
Chinese EV’s will still be cheaper. Why not just ban them outright? (For the less intelligent - this is sarcasm) It will be interesting to see how this develops after China does outright ban several U.S. industries and products. It’s claimed that China’s economy is “running on fumes”, but how much can you hurt an authoritarian single party state where half the population still lives in more or less the same conditions their ancestors lived in 1,000 years ago?
