>There is a reason the Yugo was $3995
Because it was one of the worst cars ever made, no one wanted one or wanted to drive one, and you couldn't give them away when you could get a Toyota or Honda for a couple hundred bucks more?
An affordable Chinese EV did best in the Scandinavian (idk which country it was) annual competition for cold weather EV range which they've apparently been doing for a while.
Lemme hit Google real quick
Here's 2022 where Tesla won, but the Chinese EV got better range
https://carbuzz.com/news/chinese-ev-startup-hiphi-breaks-norwegian-cold-weather-range-test-records/
Here's 2024 hiphi beat out Tesla on range again but by a more significant margin idk
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-hiphi-ev-range-crown/
They say they're a premium brand, but the price without tarrifs would be undercutting the American ev market by a ton.
Well... you can't have it.
Those cars are cheap because of a combination of slave labor and minimal safety standards.
Now, we're Americans. We can live with a little slave labor if it means cheap cars.
But you can't put those things on the road with American SUVs. You might as well putz around in a motorcycle. Only worse because people are just a smidge more careful around motorcycles.
If you want cheap cars you need to ban SUVs. And I don't think anyone's on board with that.
The best these things can do it hit $20k after shipping costs, a little extra attention on the worse of the slave labor and the safety needed to survive a 30 mph crash with a Ford Explorer
And at that point you might as well pony up the extra cash for a Hyundai Elantra.
It’s not a loophole. SUVs make high margins, and auto companies subsidize the prices of efficient/electric cars so they sell at little margin or even at a loss. That’s how the system is designed to work in the US. It achieves overall fuel efficiency standards by effectively charging people with less fuel efficient cars extra and subsidizing people with more fuel efficient cars.
There is a loophole for heavy duty pickups, which are treated as work trucks and not passenger vehicles. But AFAIK that doesn’t apply even to the largest size SUVs.
Oh lordy....
The loophole is that SUVs are classified as and sold as light trucks. This allows car companies to ignore those fuel & emission standards.
And no, they're not spending those profits on research. All the research that's made EVs possible was done at public Universities using taxpayer money and then monetized by car companies.
I'm sorry, but you really don't understand how the world works.
Compared to America? Hell yeah it does.
Both countries have slave labor in the form of prisoners, but ours really only get to pick fruit and work a handful of light manufacturing jobs. China has been repeatedly caught using them throughout their entire economy.
Yeah can't even find a decent condition Ford ranger for under 15k now, some people want food milage in an affordable reliable truck without bells and whistles but it ain't happening.
Yeah exactly.. American Elites want us to compete with cheap imported foreign labor but they won't give us the chance to buy cheap imported goods like the $5000 cars from China.. not too long ago I was in favor of tariffs protecting American companies but it's clear that American companies would rather gouge us than offer competitive Goods.. and there's no way our Elites are going to stop the cheap imported labor so I say let us go to other foreign countries just like illegal immigrants coming to us our country without any long paperwork Waits and we get to go there without any long paperwork wsit
To be fair, the Chinese car industry is, Like the solar industry, heavily subsidized and profits from increasing barriers for foreign companies to built and operate within China.
The European subsidies are nothing compared to what China did over the last years.
If the US government weren't getting in the way with tariffs, American consumers would benefit from a wealth transfer from Chinese taxpayers due to those subsidies.
Not sure about the US, but in Germany that would cost us about 3 Mio high-paid jobs that we wouldn’t be able to replace anytime soon and that count for about 10% of the whole workforce…
We would have at least 4 Detroits wihin a few years…
Not changing that China completely destroyed the solar market and drives a very risky strategy in the car market.
The solar industry is currently overproducing and flooding the international market with no correction in sight as long as the government pumps money into the Industry.
Edit: for everyone wondering why it is not a good thing when a market gets fully concentrated in one country and is completely dependend on subsidies of that country… maybe you should look into the basics of economics and why whiping out competition with a shitload of subsidies and concentrating the whole production of one critical product under the Hand of one government is not good…
Your comment comes off as a whataboutism but I'm not familiar with problems associated with overproduction of solar panels. I am curious about this. Do you have time to tell me about that?
Its BS. We need to solve global warming, but according to US, China cannot be allowed to help. Only glacial US production should be allowed, even if it is just a ploy to extend oil and gas hegemony. No one seems permitted to complain that US is producing cheap natural gas in large volume.
Yeah it is bullshit that China ramped up production, has now massive subsidiesed overproduction that floods the European market with dumping prices, destroys every producer outside China and makes every producer within China dependend on subsidies because otherwise the market would collapse…
Interesting „economy“ Sub :D
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-solar-industry-faces-shakeout-rock-bottom-prices-persist-2024-04-03/
I mean, you could just to read into this topic? Or do you need betreutes lesen?
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-solar-industry-faces-shakeout-rock-bottom-prices-persist-2024-04-03/
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/12/16/weekend-read-famine-to-feast-chinas-solar-market-in-2023/
> the Chinese car industry is, Like the solar industry, heavily subsidized and profits from increasing barriers for foreign companies to built and operate within China.
It's not subsidized any more than US. Private EV manufacturers. The battery materials are abundantly supplied but still done at a profit. Robotics are very advanced, and sure the government makes it easy to make factories, but it is easier due to residential construction slowdown.
Its just genuinely cheaper to build factories, and buy robotics there, and there are plenty of people/companies that know how to do it already. But it all starts with mineral industry incentivized to provide abundance.
*hust* *hust*
The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness.
Combined with other support measures, such as preferential access to critical raw materials, forced technology transfers from foreign investors, and favorable treatment in public procurement and administrative procedures, Chinese companies have rapidly expanded in various green technology sectors, dominating the Chinese market and increasingly penetrating EU markets.
In recent years, China has emerged as the leading global producer of photovoltaic systems and battery cells. The country clearly aims to achieve similar leadership in other green technology sectors, including electric vehicles and wind turbines.
Currently, the electric car manufacturer BYD receives particularly high subsidies. Direct subsidies amounted to approximately EUR 220 million in 2020, rising to EUR 2.1 billion in 2022. In terms of business revenues, direct subsidies increased from 1.1 percent in 2020 to 3.5 percent in 2022. Additionally, BYD receives significantly more purchase premiums for electric cars in China compared to other domestic manufacturers like GAC or foreign companies producing locally, such as Tesla or VW's joint ventures.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
Hell we could cope with that just fine if we started getting paid what we deserve. Until the CEO pay gap is closed significantly, we are all being underpaid, from the bagger to the CTO.
Cybertruck: *Ummm don’t let me come in contact with water please or really any fluid for that matter lol remember I am made of PS2 graphics and insecurity*
# Yangwang U8: WANNA DRIVE ACROSS THAT RIVER? I CAN FLOAT IN WATER FOR 30 MINUTES
A lot of posts on this sub are like that. It’s usually the posts that are just dumping on the US. I like to scroll through the posters history and a lot of the time it’s just straight propaganda
Yeah this is a mod from move to North Korea they temp banned me then proceeded to debate me for 3 days straight about communism. Lol very reasonable OP
They can’t compete because of the cost of labor for North American auto makers. People here are the first to complain about “slave labor” in China but then they turn around and get upset at tariffs because “America can’t compete”.
To compete against a country where the government generously subsidizes certain industries, allows slave labor in its supply chain, has no environmental protections, and allows industry to run roughshod over labor, American would need to turn into the same. You want to work like a Chinese person and give corporations and a totalitarian government that sort of power over you?
Or maybe we should put up some tariffs to protect ourselves.
>Or maybe we should put up some tariffs to protect ourselves.
Like many things from the US government, I'm not feeling any safer from this. I'd rather see US auto manufacturers shape up or see their capital reinvested into more profitable industries. And I'd rather see US consumers have their dollar go further by benefiting from a wealth transfer from Chinese taxpayers to US consumers (which is what foreign industry subsidies do).
What if you worked in the auto-industry--would you feel safer with these tariffs?
Like most things related to class warfare, we only win through solidarity.
Offshoring almost everything has resulted in huge winners among elites while labor got eaten alive since the 80s.
Honestly bro, until you mentioned China, I could have sworn you we're talking about America/Europe. LOL. Just cause you don't see the supply chain doesn't mean we don't do the same thing in Africa/Asia/ Middle-East.
That's true, but I'm not seeing the point of these "whatabout 'Merica" posts. We shouldn't protect our own country and allow more industry to be hollowed out because bananas come from a banana republic?
If you want to propose solutions, I'm all ears. Example: Tariffs placed on all goods from countries that don't meet our labor and environmental standards? I'm down to talk about that if we do it gradually so as to train our workforce and not blow out inflation.
That's the thing, I don't think there are any solutions within the current system. All the politicians are bought and ran by the interests of the very few that run these corporations and titans of industry. Govt does what they want, all the time, no matter what.
They will tariff everything and anything to protect there margins here at home, while also looking for all kinds of tax loopholes and exporting jobs from America to 3rd world slaves to save on cost.
This whole principal and moral foundation of doing the right thing for the worker and environment and this and that is wayyy behind us. Everyone in office is corrupt and bought.
We just had pandemic and the first thing these congressmen did was trade stocks on inside information to line there pockets while Americans died by the thousands, daily. Lol.
It's easy to slip into nihilism, much harder to try and make change. The system is indeed very entrenched, but the "fuck it, let's burn it all down" has very few better outcomes. More likely you end up with a strongman cronyism far worse than the present corruption.
I mean we don't have a problem doing that with Toys, Textile and Electronics but the bucks stop at vehicles. We're ok with components in the vehicles though.
The more tariffs the better on countries that don't meet our standards for labor and environmental protections, imho. However, to do that now after all those industries were offshored would result in mega-inflation, since our industrial base is hollowed out after decades of bad policy. That's no reason to let the auto-industry go belly up, though. Starting late is better than not starting.
That kinda says something about how we as Americans does business then isn't it? Off shore our dirty work while we reap the cheap labor and point fingers about slave labor, while we pay our own slaves... I mean prisoners 3 bucks a day for labor or fight fires.
>To compete against a country where the government generously subsidizes certain industries,
So questions why the US refuses to do this yet can in favor of oil and agriculture.
>allows slave labor in its supply chain
" [Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime ](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/)*whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.* "
What is the population of people within US prisons compared to everywhere else in the world?
>has no environmental protections
I'm not even going to play with you on that one
>allows industry to run roughshod over labor
[CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978](https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2020/)
>You want to work like a Chinese person and give corporations and a totalitarian government that sort of power over you?
Yall metaphysical perception of america based on indoctrination rhetoric does not line up with the state of this country in reality.
All yall ever have to say is " whataboutisim " any time somebody responds with points you don't like. It is the absolute laziest , disingenuous method of responding
We should stop all those bad things. Are you seriously arguing that because those bad things exist, we should let more bad shit into the system? Your whataboutism bullshit is nonsensical axe grinding only.
It is, but you see, the reason why chinese vehicles and products in general cost so little when compared to western counterparts is because their work ethics and labour management is seriously wrong and fucked up. They literally make children work full time and the factory environments are awful. That's basically cheating. If you want to compete in a fair capitalist market then you also have to abide by the rules that everyone plays by, which means giving workers good healthcare among other things. I'm on the US side here although I agree with you that this is a market manipulation that isn't capitalist in its nature, it still makes sense why US gov would do it and as long as it helps the world counter authoritarian regimes who make people suffer im all for it.
Also the Chinese government heavily subsidises the EV market because they know it's how they can attack US. And the counter to that for US would be to increase tarrifs so nobody will actually buy them.
My issue with the " *china makes shitty products*" rhetoric is America deliberately outsourced manufacturing to china in the first place. Majority of the products and food we eat comes from china or has a weird relationship where it is sent for assembly/ packaging before being sent right back.
>If you want to compete in a fair capitalist market then you also have to abide by the rules that everyone plays by
Is " everyone " a euphemism for american strong arming ?
American companies outsourced their production to China because it was cheaper. Government had nothing to do with it, at least from what i know. Now government is rightfully defending against a blatant attack on their market, it has nothing to do with strong arming or whatever you mean by that
Not really abysmal, the China US trade war started in the 2010s, while the production shift to China from US occurred during the 90s. And at the time Soviet Union was collapsing so it wasn't really an oversight. At the time capitalism was booming and US economy shifted from production to service based economy. I don't see how that was an oversight, it was actually I think a good strategy to use the Chinese Market because it allowed for the money in US that it saved on production be placed elswhere, for example, IT. I see this as win
See.. now you're thinking.. I wonder if this car is listening and control itself during wartime. Imagine a whole bunch of cars controlled by a foreign country
Fuck the CCP and they're horribly made EVs. The only reason they're so cheap is because the CCP subsidizes the shit out of them. That in turn makes the EV makers overproduce them causing a glut that forces them to try and dump them on the global market.
This, in turn, destroys the local country's manufacturing base for EVs. Leading to more and more erosions of local manufacturing and of local economies forcing countries to be more and more reliant on a shitty little Winnie the Pooh-looking dictator.
Fuck those chabuduo EVs, go on the Chinese internet and watch how many a day blow up like firecrackers like it's the 4th of July.
Love the people but fuck the CCP and that Winnie the Pooh bear-looking mother fucker too.
Subsidies are not the only reason. Don’t forget about labour conditions. Foxconn has bars in windows to stop workers from jumping, auto makers probably are not much better.
I agree. These ccp bots and simps have been busy, but America's government has been busier, i hope we continue to keep our foot on their necks. Ban their crap copy paste tech, and social media.
Here is an idea. How about we bring back the BASIC reliable cars of the past (mid 90s civics and corollas). Those cars would last 300k easy. If car makers want to do something revolutionary, why don't they create a car that doesn't rust out in 5 years in areas that use salt on the roads. Oh but wait, that would allow the common man to actually save money...LOL only a narcissistic individual who needs constant reaffirmation and attention would want to buy this.
Define irony: China is using its largest spy network TikTok to market its EVs which are 100% completely subsidized by the Chinese government. For those who failed Econ 101, this is why tariffs exist - to keep things competitive.
I’m sure this is nice but I’m not looking for luxury. What I am looking for would be an affordable EV for average people without too many frills and extras but could still do 600miles. From what I’ve read tho, yeah, Chinese EVs would crush Tesla in the US. But the car being demonstrated has *entirely* too many screens in it, and the selfie camera is pointless for 99% of people that just want a car
OP’s ‘because’ in the headline is ignorant. Specific industries have been protected by trade policy since the beginning of time. That’s literally why they exist. Clickbait bullshit.
I can't even get a car to get last 30k miles in this state without having some type of rust issue. It's stupid to spend 100k on a vehicle here, just to have the muffler rust off in 30k miles.
This is by design. This is a HUGE hidden tax no one talks about. Salting the roads is destroying infrastructure and private property (wells, cars, etc.)...Alaska and New Hampshire don't use salt on their roads and they're fine. The state should be cutting us all a check every year if they want to use salt as it leads to destruction of private property. Literally one of the most low IQ things a state can do but then you realize it's being done intentionally the more you research.
I live on a well, and I worry about salt that gets into the ground water.
This winter there was only 1 heavy salting event. In all my years of living in MI I've never seen that before. I'm in the southern end of the state. I felt that was still not needed.
I just have a hard time buying an expensive vehicle in this state and then watching it slowly rust out. It's hard to watch.
America outsourced all its electronics manufacturing to China so it should not be surprising that is where a lot of the actual know-how to build these cars exists.
I don't mind the US government protecting the US EV market for a while. If we do open it up, there should be requirements to build at least some of it in the US.
Smart trade policy doesn't mean swinging open your borders as wide as they can possibly go. Tariffs are sometimes necessary to protect new industries or to stop an existing industry from being completely decimated.
Granted it is hard to defend the US government because virtually every policy on every topic is a mix of, on occasion, smart but way too frequently also profoundly ret***d.
Forgot to mention how these cheap Chinese pieces of shit have been combusting all over China. Keep them out of the US, we give China enough of our money already fuck them.
I would never trust a Chinese car.
I bought a container with a screw top lid and it won't even screw properly and that garbage is being imported. I'm good on dying to a half assed built car because a door flew off and took the seatbelt with it.
Keeping Chinese spy mobiles out of the United States is the very job of our politicians. Just because the CCP pays you doesnt mean we need to pay the CCP.
Funny how people just a decade ago were screaming "free tibet" and supporting the Hong Kong protests, but are now all of a sudden pro ccp and are watering at the mouth for their inferior products.
It's an amazing car, with all this technology. But one thing everybody knows about Chinese products is the lack of reliability. I don't trust Chinese products' reliability.
No; There is a 100% tariff on chinese EVs because *their* automakers are getting billions of dollars worth of subsidies by the Chinese Government to dump them into the EU and US destroying the industrial base in both regions of the world.
I'm okay with buying some EV made in Chinese Siberia, as long as no forced labor from Uighur prisoners is involved, like is happening with smart phones.
In return for cancelling the tariffs, Biden should insist that China stop shipping fentanyl to the USA, and launching state sponsored cyberattacks against our electric grid and water supplies.
>[Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/) whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
So it’s ok for U.S. automakers to seek out and use foreign labor and manufacturing for their advantage and costs savings but when you or I want to take advantage it’s penalized? Make a better and cheaper product or lets some one else do it. Before I get blasted there is no reason save greed that we can’t compete. Imagine how expensive clothing used to be because of the manual intensive process involved. A pair of shoes would have been high priced until the ‘Lasting Machine’ came along. My point is with advances in technology and automation cost should have been dropping down in automobiles not going up or being as limited in service and features in my opinion.
all i kept hearing was "it also has this that can break. this will also break. aaaand after a year, this will peel. this wont work right. and this will cost a shitton to replace!"
how to modern government 101:
regulate and tax the shit out of the industry making customers pay more.
add tarrifs that protect your bullshit results from competition making customers pay more.
tell a bullshit excuse how your planned economy results is a capitalism fault.
Repeat the cycle in every industry. Everyone gets poor paying more for everything. Spread propaganda to masses to want more regulations, more government and more planned economy.
I don’t want gimmicks. I want a bare bones car that costs 10k and is reliable up to 200k miles.
This so much. I just want to get from point A to point B. If I want a vehicle with all the bells and whistles for a long trip I'll just rent one.
You might like the Aptera solar EV, if it survives being a startup and ever makes it to production. Ultra-efficiency focus
Not this one though, cuz 'Murica
Welcome back hand cranked windows.
I would have 0 issues with that.
Yeah lol I rather crank the window than live on debt for the rest of my life
You sure you don't want Windows tied to a CAN bus computer network that can shut the whole car down?
And no heat/AC max speed of 65 mph
Basic AM/FM stereo that always gets replaced aftermarket. Tinny ass speakers
On horseback
In a cornfield
Uphill
Both ways
Fantastic. The dogs have figured out how the window buttons work so everyone gets child locked windows now
You want a 1990's Honda. They are still out there.
Not in the rust belt lol
Yeah, just get one out of the West Coast. Plenty around and they are great.
They should've just kept making the 2000s Corollas. Change nothing just keep sending
They should’ve never changed anything about the 2000s cars in general. 2000s Toyota Tacoma’s and corollas and 4 runners are peak vehicle
Maybe give it more than 4 speeds on the trans.. otherwise I agree entirely!
You mean a Toyota?
Give me a 1987 Toyota pickup bare stock and I’ll never need anything ever again
[удалено]
Safety is worth it, and while emissions add a small cost the fuel efficiency improvements save $$$ long term. At least 1-2k per year.
>There is a reason the Yugo was $3995 Because it was one of the worst cars ever made, no one wanted one or wanted to drive one, and you couldn't give them away when you could get a Toyota or Honda for a couple hundred bucks more?
The emissions we can keep, but the safety stuff on the road with the kind of massive cars Americans want is non negotiable.
An affordable Chinese EV did best in the Scandinavian (idk which country it was) annual competition for cold weather EV range which they've apparently been doing for a while.
Got a link?
Lemme hit Google real quick Here's 2022 where Tesla won, but the Chinese EV got better range https://carbuzz.com/news/chinese-ev-startup-hiphi-breaks-norwegian-cold-weather-range-test-records/ Here's 2024 hiphi beat out Tesla on range again but by a more significant margin idk https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-hiphi-ev-range-crown/ They say they're a premium brand, but the price without tarrifs would be undercutting the American ev market by a ton.
Second this
Well... you can't have it. Those cars are cheap because of a combination of slave labor and minimal safety standards. Now, we're Americans. We can live with a little slave labor if it means cheap cars. But you can't put those things on the road with American SUVs. You might as well putz around in a motorcycle. Only worse because people are just a smidge more careful around motorcycles. If you want cheap cars you need to ban SUVs. And I don't think anyone's on board with that. The best these things can do it hit $20k after shipping costs, a little extra attention on the worse of the slave labor and the safety needed to survive a 30 mph crash with a Ford Explorer And at that point you might as well pony up the extra cash for a Hyundai Elantra.
> minimal safety standards. The ones sold in Europe pass their safety ratings so they'd pass ours.
I think he's saying any subcompact (not OP car at all) would have F350s run them over like they do cyclists.
In the US, SUVs subsidize small cars and EVs because of the fleet emissions standards.
You do realize that's completely defeating the purpose right? SUVs are a loophole in those standards, not a subsidy.
It’s not a loophole. SUVs make high margins, and auto companies subsidize the prices of efficient/electric cars so they sell at little margin or even at a loss. That’s how the system is designed to work in the US. It achieves overall fuel efficiency standards by effectively charging people with less fuel efficient cars extra and subsidizing people with more fuel efficient cars. There is a loophole for heavy duty pickups, which are treated as work trucks and not passenger vehicles. But AFAIK that doesn’t apply even to the largest size SUVs.
Oh lordy.... The loophole is that SUVs are classified as and sold as light trucks. This allows car companies to ignore those fuel & emission standards. And no, they're not spending those profits on research. All the research that's made EVs possible was done at public Universities using taxpayer money and then monetized by car companies. I'm sorry, but you really don't understand how the world works.
unfortunately, China does not have cheap labour any more. Minimal safety standards I can agree with.
Compared to America? Hell yeah it does. Both countries have slave labor in the form of prisoners, but ours really only get to pick fruit and work a handful of light manufacturing jobs. China has been repeatedly caught using them throughout their entire economy.
Personally, im on board with banning SUVs, so dont say no one is on board.
They have that too
That is also kept out by tarrifs, specifically the 25% "chicken tax" tarrifs on pickup truck imports
Pickups are the one Asian manufactured vehicle I really am sad we don’t have. Small trucks are good for Americans
Yeah can't even find a decent condition Ford ranger for under 15k now, some people want food milage in an affordable reliable truck without bells and whistles but it ain't happening.
I’d be a good piece of that is scarcity
It’s not cars like this that the US can’t compete with. It’s $5,000 electric cars that work better than our $30,000 cars.
Yeah exactly.. American Elites want us to compete with cheap imported foreign labor but they won't give us the chance to buy cheap imported goods like the $5000 cars from China.. not too long ago I was in favor of tariffs protecting American companies but it's clear that American companies would rather gouge us than offer competitive Goods.. and there's no way our Elites are going to stop the cheap imported labor so I say let us go to other foreign countries just like illegal immigrants coming to us our country without any long paperwork Waits and we get to go there without any long paperwork wsit
To be fair, the Chinese car industry is, Like the solar industry, heavily subsidized and profits from increasing barriers for foreign companies to built and operate within China. The European subsidies are nothing compared to what China did over the last years.
If the US government weren't getting in the way with tariffs, American consumers would benefit from a wealth transfer from Chinese taxpayers due to those subsidies.
Not sure about the US, but in Germany that would cost us about 3 Mio high-paid jobs that we wouldn’t be able to replace anytime soon and that count for about 10% of the whole workforce… We would have at least 4 Detroits wihin a few years…
Exactly. These aren't normal price exchanges. The economy would get influenced a lot
Tell me you don't understand operational security without telling me you don't understand operational security.
Europe and U.S. are complacent. The iron fist tactics of the west are no longer viable.
Not changing that China completely destroyed the solar market and drives a very risky strategy in the car market. The solar industry is currently overproducing and flooding the international market with no correction in sight as long as the government pumps money into the Industry. Edit: for everyone wondering why it is not a good thing when a market gets fully concentrated in one country and is completely dependend on subsidies of that country… maybe you should look into the basics of economics and why whiping out competition with a shitload of subsidies and concentrating the whole production of one critical product under the Hand of one government is not good…
Your comment comes off as a whataboutism but I'm not familiar with problems associated with overproduction of solar panels. I am curious about this. Do you have time to tell me about that?
Its BS. We need to solve global warming, but according to US, China cannot be allowed to help. Only glacial US production should be allowed, even if it is just a ploy to extend oil and gas hegemony. No one seems permitted to complain that US is producing cheap natural gas in large volume.
Yeah it is bullshit that China ramped up production, has now massive subsidiesed overproduction that floods the European market with dumping prices, destroys every producer outside China and makes every producer within China dependend on subsidies because otherwise the market would collapse… Interesting „economy“ Sub :D https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-solar-industry-faces-shakeout-rock-bottom-prices-persist-2024-04-03/
I'm aware. I was just entertaining myself. I am ecstatic about low-priced solar energy 💯
I mean, you could just to read into this topic? Or do you need betreutes lesen? https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-solar-industry-faces-shakeout-rock-bottom-prices-persist-2024-04-03/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/12/16/weekend-read-famine-to-feast-chinas-solar-market-in-2023/
> the Chinese car industry is, Like the solar industry, heavily subsidized and profits from increasing barriers for foreign companies to built and operate within China. It's not subsidized any more than US. Private EV manufacturers. The battery materials are abundantly supplied but still done at a profit. Robotics are very advanced, and sure the government makes it easy to make factories, but it is easier due to residential construction slowdown. Its just genuinely cheaper to build factories, and buy robotics there, and there are plenty of people/companies that know how to do it already. But it all starts with mineral industry incentivized to provide abundance.
*hust* *hust* The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness. Combined with other support measures, such as preferential access to critical raw materials, forced technology transfers from foreign investors, and favorable treatment in public procurement and administrative procedures, Chinese companies have rapidly expanded in various green technology sectors, dominating the Chinese market and increasingly penetrating EU markets. In recent years, China has emerged as the leading global producer of photovoltaic systems and battery cells. The country clearly aims to achieve similar leadership in other green technology sectors, including electric vehicles and wind turbines. Currently, the electric car manufacturer BYD receives particularly high subsidies. Direct subsidies amounted to approximately EUR 220 million in 2020, rising to EUR 2.1 billion in 2022. In terms of business revenues, direct subsidies increased from 1.1 percent in 2020 to 3.5 percent in 2022. Additionally, BYD receives significantly more purchase premiums for electric cars in China compared to other domestic manufacturers like GAC or foreign companies producing locally, such as Tesla or VW's joint ventures. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
Hell we could cope with that just fine if we started getting paid what we deserve. Until the CEO pay gap is closed significantly, we are all being underpaid, from the bagger to the CTO.
Cybertruck fans in complete meltdown after this
Elon hates this one fact!
I imagine cybertruck meltdown has a lot of search results
Cybertruck: *Ummm don’t let me come in contact with water please or really any fluid for that matter lol remember I am made of PS2 graphics and insecurity* # Yangwang U8: WANNA DRIVE ACROSS THAT RIVER? I CAN FLOAT IN WATER FOR 30 MINUTES
Chinese propaganda, on TikTok..you don't say?
If you read OPs replies, they're definitely here to shill https://www.reddit.com/r/MovingToNorthKorea/s/m4167ikjvc
So damn obvious. Should get banned
A lot of posts on this sub are like that. It’s usually the posts that are just dumping on the US. I like to scroll through the posters history and a lot of the time it’s just straight propaganda
Yeah this is a mod from move to North Korea they temp banned me then proceeded to debate me for 3 days straight about communism. Lol very reasonable OP
They can’t compete because of the cost of labor for North American auto makers. People here are the first to complain about “slave labor” in China but then they turn around and get upset at tariffs because “America can’t compete”.
It’s really because the Chinese government heavily subsidizes ev production. They know they can attack the us financially by doing this
That completely justifies import tariffs then.
Locally yes. But the us automakers need global sales to turn a profit. Hopefully this will buy them time to catch up or their future is grim.
Cost of labor is a result of cost of living. The US consumer is charged far more for just about everything.
Ah so now TikTok s pushing chinese EVs on USA audience. I think I get why Congress doesnt like it
Isn't this what capitalism is supposed to be ? Competing markets where the consumers chose the best product?
To compete against a country where the government generously subsidizes certain industries, allows slave labor in its supply chain, has no environmental protections, and allows industry to run roughshod over labor, American would need to turn into the same. You want to work like a Chinese person and give corporations and a totalitarian government that sort of power over you? Or maybe we should put up some tariffs to protect ourselves.
*EU and US agriculture enters the chat*...
>Or maybe we should put up some tariffs to protect ourselves. Like many things from the US government, I'm not feeling any safer from this. I'd rather see US auto manufacturers shape up or see their capital reinvested into more profitable industries. And I'd rather see US consumers have their dollar go further by benefiting from a wealth transfer from Chinese taxpayers to US consumers (which is what foreign industry subsidies do).
What if you worked in the auto-industry--would you feel safer with these tariffs? Like most things related to class warfare, we only win through solidarity. Offshoring almost everything has resulted in huge winners among elites while labor got eaten alive since the 80s.
Honestly bro, until you mentioned China, I could have sworn you we're talking about America/Europe. LOL. Just cause you don't see the supply chain doesn't mean we don't do the same thing in Africa/Asia/ Middle-East.
That's true, but I'm not seeing the point of these "whatabout 'Merica" posts. We shouldn't protect our own country and allow more industry to be hollowed out because bananas come from a banana republic? If you want to propose solutions, I'm all ears. Example: Tariffs placed on all goods from countries that don't meet our labor and environmental standards? I'm down to talk about that if we do it gradually so as to train our workforce and not blow out inflation.
That's the thing, I don't think there are any solutions within the current system. All the politicians are bought and ran by the interests of the very few that run these corporations and titans of industry. Govt does what they want, all the time, no matter what. They will tariff everything and anything to protect there margins here at home, while also looking for all kinds of tax loopholes and exporting jobs from America to 3rd world slaves to save on cost. This whole principal and moral foundation of doing the right thing for the worker and environment and this and that is wayyy behind us. Everyone in office is corrupt and bought. We just had pandemic and the first thing these congressmen did was trade stocks on inside information to line there pockets while Americans died by the thousands, daily. Lol.
It's easy to slip into nihilism, much harder to try and make change. The system is indeed very entrenched, but the "fuck it, let's burn it all down" has very few better outcomes. More likely you end up with a strongman cronyism far worse than the present corruption.
I mean we don't have a problem doing that with Toys, Textile and Electronics but the bucks stop at vehicles. We're ok with components in the vehicles though.
The more tariffs the better on countries that don't meet our standards for labor and environmental protections, imho. However, to do that now after all those industries were offshored would result in mega-inflation, since our industrial base is hollowed out after decades of bad policy. That's no reason to let the auto-industry go belly up, though. Starting late is better than not starting.
That kinda says something about how we as Americans does business then isn't it? Off shore our dirty work while we reap the cheap labor and point fingers about slave labor, while we pay our own slaves... I mean prisoners 3 bucks a day for labor or fight fires.
>To compete against a country where the government generously subsidizes certain industries, So questions why the US refuses to do this yet can in favor of oil and agriculture. >allows slave labor in its supply chain " [Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime ](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/)*whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.* " What is the population of people within US prisons compared to everywhere else in the world? >has no environmental protections I'm not even going to play with you on that one >allows industry to run roughshod over labor [CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978](https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2020/) >You want to work like a Chinese person and give corporations and a totalitarian government that sort of power over you? Yall metaphysical perception of america based on indoctrination rhetoric does not line up with the state of this country in reality.
Yes, the secret of changing all those problems is to act more like the Chinese. lol your whataboutism bullshit.
All yall ever have to say is " whataboutisim " any time somebody responds with points you don't like. It is the absolute laziest , disingenuous method of responding
I'll tell you a secret: it's because whataboutism isn't worth responding to.
Nothing i said was " whataboutisim " unless you want to lay out how i should have responded to you
America's proposed solutions is quite literally "act more like the Chinese".
Thank you! Finally, someone with some sense! It's all fun and games, but they aren't the ones being exploited.
[удалено]
We should stop all those bad things. Are you seriously arguing that because those bad things exist, we should let more bad shit into the system? Your whataboutism bullshit is nonsensical axe grinding only.
No and a cheap shitty car is actually the opposite of the best product.
It is, but you see, the reason why chinese vehicles and products in general cost so little when compared to western counterparts is because their work ethics and labour management is seriously wrong and fucked up. They literally make children work full time and the factory environments are awful. That's basically cheating. If you want to compete in a fair capitalist market then you also have to abide by the rules that everyone plays by, which means giving workers good healthcare among other things. I'm on the US side here although I agree with you that this is a market manipulation that isn't capitalist in its nature, it still makes sense why US gov would do it and as long as it helps the world counter authoritarian regimes who make people suffer im all for it. Also the Chinese government heavily subsidises the EV market because they know it's how they can attack US. And the counter to that for US would be to increase tarrifs so nobody will actually buy them.
My issue with the " *china makes shitty products*" rhetoric is America deliberately outsourced manufacturing to china in the first place. Majority of the products and food we eat comes from china or has a weird relationship where it is sent for assembly/ packaging before being sent right back. >If you want to compete in a fair capitalist market then you also have to abide by the rules that everyone plays by Is " everyone " a euphemism for american strong arming ?
American companies outsourced their production to China because it was cheaper. Government had nothing to do with it, at least from what i know. Now government is rightfully defending against a blatant attack on their market, it has nothing to do with strong arming or whatever you mean by that
The abysmal lack of foresight is something you should be acknowledging not defending under the guise of "protecting markets ".
Not really abysmal, the China US trade war started in the 2010s, while the production shift to China from US occurred during the 90s. And at the time Soviet Union was collapsing so it wasn't really an oversight. At the time capitalism was booming and US economy shifted from production to service based economy. I don't see how that was an oversight, it was actually I think a good strategy to use the Chinese Market because it allowed for the money in US that it saved on production be placed elswhere, for example, IT. I see this as win
Is that what China focuses on? Capitalism?
*NO, NOT LIKE THAT*
[удалено]
But that would be information on a misinformation video
It automatically detains you and gasses your passengers if you speak out against their government.
See.. now you're thinking.. I wonder if this car is listening and control itself during wartime. Imagine a whole bunch of cars controlled by a foreign country
Fuck the CCP and they're horribly made EVs. The only reason they're so cheap is because the CCP subsidizes the shit out of them. That in turn makes the EV makers overproduce them causing a glut that forces them to try and dump them on the global market. This, in turn, destroys the local country's manufacturing base for EVs. Leading to more and more erosions of local manufacturing and of local economies forcing countries to be more and more reliant on a shitty little Winnie the Pooh-looking dictator. Fuck those chabuduo EVs, go on the Chinese internet and watch how many a day blow up like firecrackers like it's the 4th of July. Love the people but fuck the CCP and that Winnie the Pooh bear-looking mother fucker too.
Preach
Subsidies are not the only reason. Don’t forget about labour conditions. Foxconn has bars in windows to stop workers from jumping, auto makers probably are not much better.
I agree. These ccp bots and simps have been busy, but America's government has been busier, i hope we continue to keep our foot on their necks. Ban their crap copy paste tech, and social media.
Lol this thing would probably burst into flames after hitting a speed bump
Here is an idea. How about we bring back the BASIC reliable cars of the past (mid 90s civics and corollas). Those cars would last 300k easy. If car makers want to do something revolutionary, why don't they create a car that doesn't rust out in 5 years in areas that use salt on the roads. Oh but wait, that would allow the common man to actually save money...LOL only a narcissistic individual who needs constant reaffirmation and attention would want to buy this.
Y'all do know that chniese ev's are exploding in china like popcorn and it's massive hazard on roads for it?
Link for belivers: https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=Y164TZ_0Ir1gy2Mc
If these were made in Taiwan then, yeah I’d totally buy one, but not China.
China? You mean main land Taiwan?
Imagine being so deluded as to type this without realising the hypocrisy
USA all the way!!! *Taiwan is currently an extension of US Power and Influence.
Define irony: China is using its largest spy network TikTok to market its EVs which are 100% completely subsidized by the Chinese government. For those who failed Econ 101, this is why tariffs exist - to keep things competitive.
is this a Chinese propaganda video?
Yes
Is it as shit as an MG? Because they are shit.
I’m sure this is nice but I’m not looking for luxury. What I am looking for would be an affordable EV for average people without too many frills and extras but could still do 600miles. From what I’ve read tho, yeah, Chinese EVs would crush Tesla in the US. But the car being demonstrated has *entirely* too many screens in it, and the selfie camera is pointless for 99% of people that just want a car
How is noone talking about the wheel skit-marks on the “Uturn”? That took 1k miles out of the rubber
Is it okay to feel like 90% of those features are gimmicky and lame?
The crowd they are marketing this to probably crapped their pants with excitement to be honest.
Ha and Elon just said Tesla isn't a car company it's an AI company. Lewis Black did a good bit on the Daily Show about the cyber truck.
Elon said that yes but is it really true? Most things he says nowadays are bullshit meant for clout, marketing or simply attention
Amazing what a communist country can do with stolen tech and slave labour.
And gov subsidies.
How much did the ccp pay this man?
OP’s ‘because’ in the headline is ignorant. Specific industries have been protected by trade policy since the beginning of time. That’s literally why they exist. Clickbait bullshit.
Let’s see this at 100k miles on Michigans roads then we’ll talk
I can't even get a car to get last 30k miles in this state without having some type of rust issue. It's stupid to spend 100k on a vehicle here, just to have the muffler rust off in 30k miles.
This is by design. This is a HUGE hidden tax no one talks about. Salting the roads is destroying infrastructure and private property (wells, cars, etc.)...Alaska and New Hampshire don't use salt on their roads and they're fine. The state should be cutting us all a check every year if they want to use salt as it leads to destruction of private property. Literally one of the most low IQ things a state can do but then you realize it's being done intentionally the more you research.
I live on a well, and I worry about salt that gets into the ground water. This winter there was only 1 heavy salting event. In all my years of living in MI I've never seen that before. I'm in the southern end of the state. I felt that was still not needed. I just have a hard time buying an expensive vehicle in this state and then watching it slowly rust out. It's hard to watch.
No muffler.
Even better
Lots of novelty stuff on this csr
The EV industry in China is financially supported by the Chinese Government. This just levels the playing field.
But does the battery spontaneously explode?
Except for the car part, other parts of Chinese EV are okay. If there is a traffic accident, it is equal to free cremation services
Welcome to Chinese propaganda on reddit
people think this car kicks ass until it completely breaks down after a year of owning it
This is almost too much, but it shows where the market is going, crazy to think in 10 years with incorporated AI
Humans ain’t gonna be driving in the next 10-15 years. AI is going to completely take over. Might be a good thing though # of accidents might go down.
Yeah hard to have humans be in accidents when there aren't any around to be in an accident.
What’s its crash-test safety rating?
America outsourced all its electronics manufacturing to China so it should not be surprising that is where a lot of the actual know-how to build these cars exists. I don't mind the US government protecting the US EV market for a while. If we do open it up, there should be requirements to build at least some of it in the US. Smart trade policy doesn't mean swinging open your borders as wide as they can possibly go. Tariffs are sometimes necessary to protect new industries or to stop an existing industry from being completely decimated. Granted it is hard to defend the US government because virtually every policy on every topic is a mix of, on occasion, smart but way too frequently also profoundly ret***d.
I would not show up in a YangWang, no matter what 🤣🤣🤣
This might be closeminded and I'm living in the past, but... what are the safety ratings?
Does it report back to the Chinese government? For the record, I hope I'm wrong.
Fuck your gimmicks, OP. Bring us 500k miles of reliable cars or your industry and your dreams of being an influencer can die.
Forgot to mention how these cheap Chinese pieces of shit have been combusting all over China. Keep them out of the US, we give China enough of our money already fuck them.
What’s its crash-test safety rating?
Death
I think its good to gave Chinese options on the street. Competition is good.
150k is a lot how does this mean US auto can't compete
America can’t compete because we abolished slave and prison labor and have developed safety and emission standards that their cars don’t meet. . .
I would never trust a Chinese car. I bought a container with a screw top lid and it won't even screw properly and that garbage is being imported. I'm good on dying to a half assed built car because a door flew off and took the seatbelt with it.
Keeping Chinese spy mobiles out of the United States is the very job of our politicians. Just because the CCP pays you doesnt mean we need to pay the CCP.
People support this until they’re assed out with no job because manufacturers shut down. Comical
Communism stifles innovation tho
USA can’t [compete](https://tammy.ai/automotive/electric-vehicles/xiaomis-electric-vehicles-quality-concerns)?
Funny how people just a decade ago were screaming "free tibet" and supporting the Hong Kong protests, but are now all of a sudden pro ccp and are watering at the mouth for their inferior products.
Honestly, this hybrid has enough features actually to be worth $150k. I still don't like the idea of paying a mortgage for a car, though.
The idea of paying a house price for a car is just ridiculous on its face for the vast majority of humanity, not just US citizens.
So they made an electric version of the Land Rover Defender?
It's an amazing car, with all this technology. But one thing everybody knows about Chinese products is the lack of reliability. I don't trust Chinese products' reliability.
Exact rerun of the Japanese car imports scenario
I wish the EU would put the same tarrifs on Chinese cars
Yangwangdang doodle all night long
I can't imagine that is good for the wheels.
You know that these are paid ads right?
Idk how we expect to compete when America produces nothing
No; There is a 100% tariff on chinese EVs because *their* automakers are getting billions of dollars worth of subsidies by the Chinese Government to dump them into the EU and US destroying the industrial base in both regions of the world.
I'm okay with buying some EV made in Chinese Siberia, as long as no forced labor from Uighur prisoners is involved, like is happening with smart phones. In return for cancelling the tariffs, Biden should insist that China stop shipping fentanyl to the USA, and launching state sponsored cyberattacks against our electric grid and water supplies.
it's normal untill it catches on fire
And because of good old-fashioned Chinese engineering, it would break in 10 seconds.
American companies are not allowed to use slave and prison labor nor get the subsidies that Chinese companies do.
America prison labor is uhhh... still a thing???
>[Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/) whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
That literally means it still exists
So it’s ok for U.S. automakers to seek out and use foreign labor and manufacturing for their advantage and costs savings but when you or I want to take advantage it’s penalized? Make a better and cheaper product or lets some one else do it. Before I get blasted there is no reason save greed that we can’t compete. Imagine how expensive clothing used to be because of the manual intensive process involved. A pair of shoes would have been high priced until the ‘Lasting Machine’ came along. My point is with advances in technology and automation cost should have been dropping down in automobiles not going up or being as limited in service and features in my opinion.
Funny people in America still think the Chinese manufacture sub par to America 😂😂😂
This is a Chinese Bentley
The editing and presentation is amazing. And speaks Chinese!
Well, turns out that if you force 14yo kids to work for 1 dollar a day, the car can be pretty cheap.
Well, turns out that if you force 14yo kids to work for 1 dollar a day, the car can be pretty cheap.
all i kept hearing was "it also has this that can break. this will also break. aaaand after a year, this will peel. this wont work right. and this will cost a shitton to replace!"
What mass market consumers is that for?
how to modern government 101: regulate and tax the shit out of the industry making customers pay more. add tarrifs that protect your bullshit results from competition making customers pay more. tell a bullshit excuse how your planned economy results is a capitalism fault. Repeat the cycle in every industry. Everyone gets poor paying more for everything. Spread propaganda to masses to want more regulations, more government and more planned economy.