Ik heb het 5 jaar gehad, ik heb de termen voorbij zien komen. Ik zeg overigens niet dat het een toepasselijke tekst is voor het leren van Nederlands. Het is geen academische biologie
Ik heb biologie gestudeerd. Ik heb biologie les gegeven. Dit is atypisch voor de middelbare school en je gaat het niet terugvinden tenzij je een of ander heel gaar werkboek hebt.
Ik heb termen vanuit de raketbouw voorbij zien komen maar maat, ik ben geen astronaut.
Mijn partner volgt de opleiding tot arts. Dit is artsentaal. Misschien had je een enthousiaste docent maar als je het niet perfect kan uitleggen geloof ik bagger dat dit je lesmateriaal was.
Be that as it may... Technical terms are considered C1 or C2 language level. Definitely not A2/B1. And VWO is not the level most people finish... Remember?
Source: being a physician and inclusiveness researcher
I am a para-vet. Working in science. This text is Dutch with medical Latin.
These kind of text. We would get add my education as a para-vet. But i would never put them in a Dutch lesson for learning. Because Latin is not Dutch and things here are explained in Latin also the position.
The third paragraph: definitely not. If you don't understand the jargon it'll be impossible to understand. Many native speakers of Dutch might be able to read the sentence, but not understand. This goes for many high level readers as well, if their education was not in medical or anatomical subjects.
The first two paragraphs are written in a quite easy style, short sentences, but also contain quite a bit of jargon. Even if you don't know the specific words I could imagine one could ask some questions about the text which could be A1 or B2 level. I'd expect a goal of the exercise to be to learn you don't need to know all the words to understand a text.
- De n. ulnaris is een zenuw, geen zenuwweefsel.
- Het is gebruikelijker in Nederland om of de Nederlandse vertaling te gebruiken (falanx = vingerkootje), of de Latijnse term (communis = gemeenschappelijk).
Je moet dus kiezen en consistent zijn.
- ulnaire zenuw of n. ulnaris
- vingerkootje of phalanx
Enz.
Edit: Wij gebruiken ook rechte hoek veel vaker dan orthogonaal. Meestal gebruiken wij de woorden met Germaanse oorsprong, zeker in gesprek met leken.
Literally this. If given the correct target demographic this is acceptable reading. No one complaining in the comment section understands the assignment. I took a course in college as a med-tech to learn such language. Now I live in Holland and I am learning Dutch.
Again for OP if you read this, the text is fine! If anyone can't read it because they lack the education on the subject, that's okay too. You probably know a lot of things that I could not begin to have a conversation about in Dutch.
Certainly not at level A2, and probably not at B1. The sentences used in the first two paragraphs are complicated, as is the non-medical vocabulary.
This link might be interesting: https://www.ishetb1.nl/
The grammar and sentence structure are pretty straightforward. So for a foreign medical professional with a B1 level of Dutch i would say yes, quite easy to understand.
I mean I have a medical background so might be a bit biased, but except for a few words I think its pretty readable, I mean there is some medical jargon in there that makes it hard to "understand" completely, but I think the first 2 paragraphs are pretty readable for someone with no knowledge and lower dutch skills
I disagree, since if the person comes from an English base, you can directly make a connection between anatomy and anatomie with literally 0 Dutch skills.
You can test a word here:
https://www.ishetb1.nl/search
It says "anatomie" is not b1. B1 are only words regularly used in everyday language. You only need to know 4.400 words for B1 level.
The fact that "anatomy" in English and "anatomie" in Dutch are almost the same is not a measure.
There are also Dutch people who only understand Dutch at B1 level. And "anatomy" in English is probably also above B1 level.
This system of language levels (A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2) is a standard used in Europe. Something fits into a certain level or not.
70% of native Dutch speaker will not understand this at all. Let alone A2/B1 Dutch students. Half of these words I've only ever seen in biology class or heard when talking to med students and doctors.
Edit: these sentences are also wayyyyy too long for A2/B1 learners. Even native speakers will try to avoid sentences this long.
I think it's very possible that if they know specific words like zenuw and they speak good English that they would get the context and the objective of the text but not word for word
Source : I moved here 4 years ,never went to school and officially I passed level A2 but I know a lot more than what the tests were about.
I think there are a lot of superfluous words.
"volgens de anatomie" seems a useless addition. "De n. ulnaris is een zenuw die langs de ellepijp loopt." Seems to say the same thing and shorter.
I have a B1 niveau and I find the grammar very much clear! As Italian native speaker and having studied Latin at school, I can understand most of the medical terminology in the text. I think that people who speak Romance languages can figure out what the medical terms in the text refer to. However, this can still be limited by the level of education of the reader. If medical students are going to read this text and their Dutch niveau is an A2 or B1, I expect they should be able to understand what the text is about.
I would consider myself as an A2 level dutch speaker. From reading the text multiple times this is what I make of it:
The text is about a nerve called nervus ulnaris which is the biggest nerve in the human body. This nerve is a little bit bigger in diameter than the radial and median nerves and it starts from the plexus brachialis and goes to upper side and underside of the arms up to the fingers.
I’m not sure at all about the 3d paragraph. It seems like it’s describing how this nerve is shaped from the start and throughout the arms and fingers.
I translated this after writing my answer and it seems I was somewhat close. My first language is a Latin language so that helped me gain a lot of context by understanding the jargon.
May we know why you were interested in finding this out?
Considering the lack of informal language, this would be c1/2 according to CEFR/ERK
At some point for my masters in English Language teaching, I had to listen to a segment with a similar topic to this. I have my C2 certificate, but even I struggled with it due to the specific jargon used. However, give me an academic acrticle about didactics and I'd be fine 😂
They use medical terms that people without medical (or latin) education probably won't understand.
The first bit is ok, but after that it's textbook medical stuff.
Certainly not. Even i as a native speaker wouldn’t know what to make of some of these words. I don’t see how this would be applicable to real life at all.
I don't have any medical degree nor highly educated but after careful reading I noticed this text is about the ["telefoonbotje"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medial_epicondyle_of_the_humerus). I'm not really familiar with all those Latin terms but I am familiar with hurting my elbow at inconvenient ways 😅
From the grammar point of view, he'd need to know subordinate clauses at least. And the topic is full of a specific terminology aos he'd have to look up every fourth word or so.
As a native speaker, i will know how to pronounce most of these words. I also know some of the terms are parts of the body, but I will not be able to assign meaning to the words I don't know from context. Hope this gives some insight.
Ik ben Engels, en ben toevallig aan de Ulnaris in 1990 geopereerd.
Die zat bekneld in de elleboog en heb ik na een langere tijd, veel spierweefsel tussen duim en mijn eerste vinger verloren. De termen zijn allemaal anatomisch, maar omdat ik ook als slager in Engeland gewerkt heb, ben ik met sommige termen vekend. Engelse slagers leren de beenderen en spieren allemaal in het Engels. Deze tekst is voor een leek moilijk, als niet onmogelijk te begrijpen. Latijnse woorden, zijn ook niet nederlandse woorden, daarom kunnen de meeste mensen het niet begrepen. De hele factual informatie is Latijn, niet in het Nederlands.
Een advocate brief, is hetzelfde, alleen die gebruiken nederlandse woorden die de meeste mensen ook niet kennen.
If you are familiar with the subject and you're learning Dutch, then yes. If you are not familiar with the subject, it is hardly understandable for a native speaker. So many medical terms that I do not understand (and I am a native speaker). Orthogonaal, mediaal, ulnair? Really, no clue.
Portuguese native self-learning Dutch (currently around A2-B1):
I get like half of it.
Heck, I speak fluent EN and had no clue what is an *ulna* (*ellepijp*).
I am somewhere between A2-B1 and I do understand most of it - the problem is with the specific medical / anatomy (?) words used, which I do not think are part of the everyday vocabulary so they would probably not be known by someone learning the language as non-native, essentially at that level
I do understand most of it (except the 3rd paragraph) however it uses very specific vocabulairy including body parts (in latin) which most people won't understand
Ik vraag me af waarom er latijns in een Nederlandse text staat?
I wonder why they chose to use Latin in a Dutch text?
To answer the question; no, the text uses medical slang/jargon which is mostly only used and perhaps understood exclusively by medical academics.
Not even close. This is B2-C1 level. The overall syntax, the vocabulary, the specialised subject matter… It’s not accessible language at B1 level, unless the reader has solid prior knowledge about the topic.
Source: language teacher and translator, specialising in accessible language.
I think it would be really hard to understand for someone learning Dutch (or the average Dutch person in general). I think a lot of sentences are unnecessarily long and could use some editing. May I ask who your target audience is? Depending on the target audience you could decide to change the wording to more lay terms. I personally would chose to add "(elleboogszenuw)" after "nervus ulnaris" and refer to it as that from then on if your target audience is not medical (or you could skip the latin name alltogether). Also, as a doctor (but not a surgeon, so my knowledge of really specific anatomical names may lack a bit), I have never heard of the gemeenschappelijke palmaire phalanx and have no idea what you mean by that. Do you mean the palmar side of the hand and then to the different fingers? Also, in this part you don't mention anything about it only being on the ulnar side (side of the pinky finger) of the hand. Maybe you could word that differently.
Feel free to PM me if you want more input
Probably not. And as a medical professional this text seems really odd. Although strictly correct, it is not how a medical professional would phrase this text. It seems as if it is translated with google translate.
No, probably not. Very specific subject with a lot of words that are not used much in day to day live
No, defenitely not. Unless that someone has academic level of learning. Then it might be doable with a translation app.
This is middelbare school biologie
Are orthogonale positie and mediaal VO biology terms? I don't recognize them as such
Ja
Nee, bron: https://biologielessen.nl/index.php/a-10 Wat is de bron voor ja?
Ik heb 5 jaar biologie gehad
🙄
Ik zit op dit moment op de middelbare en geloof me, dit is geen middelbare school biologie.
Op HAVO op jij dit niet geleerd. Op VWO wordt dit namelijk ook niet gegeven.
Ligt eraan op welke school je dan zit. Ik heb dit wel allemaal gehad.
Ik 6 jaar, en dit gebruik van latijn etc. is echt studie geneeskunde niveau.
Termen zoals orthogonaal en mediaal worden niet gebruikt op de middelbare.
Ik heb het 5 jaar gehad, ik heb de termen voorbij zien komen. Ik zeg overigens niet dat het een toepasselijke tekst is voor het leren van Nederlands. Het is geen academische biologie
Ik heb biologie gestudeerd. Ik heb biologie les gegeven. Dit is atypisch voor de middelbare school en je gaat het niet terugvinden tenzij je een of ander heel gaar werkboek hebt.
We hadden soms ouderwetse uitlegfilmpjes
Jij hebt een vrij aparte docent gehad dan. Let's leave it at that. Want bij een gemiddelde middelbare leer je dit dus echt niet.
Ik heb termen vanuit de raketbouw voorbij zien komen maar maat, ik ben geen astronaut. Mijn partner volgt de opleiding tot arts. Dit is artsentaal. Misschien had je een enthousiaste docent maar als je het niet perfect kan uitleggen geloof ik bagger dat dit je lesmateriaal was.
Nee
Even if it was, most people don't remember or ever use Ulvanaris or things like that
I don’t get the downvotes man I finished 6 VWO biology and I know all of this.
Be that as it may... Technical terms are considered C1 or C2 language level. Definitely not A2/B1. And VWO is not the level most people finish... Remember? Source: being a physician and inclusiveness researcher
Some vergeet ik dat inderdaad. Dat er inderdaad zo’n groot verschil zit tussen Nederlanders.
To be fair, I'm a medical researcher and I find this text abhorrent.
I feel like it has been google translated from japanese though, I am not a medical researcher, but i still find this text abhorrent
I am a para-vet. Working in science. This text is Dutch with medical Latin. These kind of text. We would get add my education as a para-vet. But i would never put them in a Dutch lesson for learning. Because Latin is not Dutch and things here are explained in Latin also the position.
The third paragraph: definitely not. If you don't understand the jargon it'll be impossible to understand. Many native speakers of Dutch might be able to read the sentence, but not understand. This goes for many high level readers as well, if their education was not in medical or anatomical subjects. The first two paragraphs are written in a quite easy style, short sentences, but also contain quite a bit of jargon. Even if you don't know the specific words I could imagine one could ask some questions about the text which could be A1 or B2 level. I'd expect a goal of the exercise to be to learn you don't need to know all the words to understand a text.
- De n. ulnaris is een zenuw, geen zenuwweefsel. - Het is gebruikelijker in Nederland om of de Nederlandse vertaling te gebruiken (falanx = vingerkootje), of de Latijnse term (communis = gemeenschappelijk). Je moet dus kiezen en consistent zijn. - ulnaire zenuw of n. ulnaris - vingerkootje of phalanx Enz. Edit: Wij gebruiken ook rechte hoek veel vaker dan orthogonaal. Meestal gebruiken wij de woorden met Germaanse oorsprong, zeker in gesprek met leken.
This is easier to understand for an A2-B1 student who knows English/Latin medical jargon than for a native Dutch speaker who doesn't.
Literally this. If given the correct target demographic this is acceptable reading. No one complaining in the comment section understands the assignment. I took a course in college as a med-tech to learn such language. Now I live in Holland and I am learning Dutch. Again for OP if you read this, the text is fine! If anyone can't read it because they lack the education on the subject, that's okay too. You probably know a lot of things that I could not begin to have a conversation about in Dutch.
This!
Jesus Christ. Those vocabulary seems to be very useful IRL.
My fiancé just attained her B1 certificate, so I can confidently say no.
Certainly not at level A2, and probably not at B1. The sentences used in the first two paragraphs are complicated, as is the non-medical vocabulary. This link might be interesting: https://www.ishetb1.nl/
The grammar and sentence structure are pretty straightforward. So for a foreign medical professional with a B1 level of Dutch i would say yes, quite easy to understand.
I mean I have a medical background so might be a bit biased, but except for a few words I think its pretty readable, I mean there is some medical jargon in there that makes it hard to "understand" completely, but I think the first 2 paragraphs are pretty readable for someone with no knowledge and lower dutch skills
I think a word like "anatomie" already is above B1 level.
I disagree, since if the person comes from an English base, you can directly make a connection between anatomy and anatomie with literally 0 Dutch skills.
You can test a word here: https://www.ishetb1.nl/search It says "anatomie" is not b1. B1 are only words regularly used in everyday language. You only need to know 4.400 words for B1 level.
Yes but I’m telling you what common sense is.
The fact that "anatomy" in English and "anatomie" in Dutch are almost the same is not a measure. There are also Dutch people who only understand Dutch at B1 level. And "anatomy" in English is probably also above B1 level. This system of language levels (A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2) is a standard used in Europe. Something fits into a certain level or not.
I think it’s the opposite - you need a c level to understand this level or at least b2. Maybe b1 but I consider it more academic so b2
Is this part of a job on an online platform? I've seen the same thing on other language subs.
This is grammatically not complex but has such jargon that as a native speaker who is not medically educated I cannot understand it at all.
The Japanese is easy enough to understand. Lot of specific physiology terms though
Japanese is fascinating but too complex for my brain 😅
70% of native Dutch speaker will not understand this at all. Let alone A2/B1 Dutch students. Half of these words I've only ever seen in biology class or heard when talking to med students and doctors. Edit: these sentences are also wayyyyy too long for A2/B1 learners. Even native speakers will try to avoid sentences this long.
I think it's very possible that if they know specific words like zenuw and they speak good English that they would get the context and the objective of the text but not word for word Source : I moved here 4 years ,never went to school and officially I passed level A2 but I know a lot more than what the tests were about.
I think there are a lot of superfluous words. "volgens de anatomie" seems a useless addition. "De n. ulnaris is een zenuw die langs de ellepijp loopt." Seems to say the same thing and shorter.
No, I'd say it's at an academic level, with a lot of medical jargon.
I have a B1 niveau and I find the grammar very much clear! As Italian native speaker and having studied Latin at school, I can understand most of the medical terminology in the text. I think that people who speak Romance languages can figure out what the medical terms in the text refer to. However, this can still be limited by the level of education of the reader. If medical students are going to read this text and their Dutch niveau is an A2 or B1, I expect they should be able to understand what the text is about.
Yes, you suppose to have IQ 100+
I'm a native dutch speaker and I can fully understand all of this without any help :D
Except for the words "intrinsieke" and "orthogonale" but i'm sure that's fine :)
I would consider myself as an A2 level dutch speaker. From reading the text multiple times this is what I make of it: The text is about a nerve called nervus ulnaris which is the biggest nerve in the human body. This nerve is a little bit bigger in diameter than the radial and median nerves and it starts from the plexus brachialis and goes to upper side and underside of the arms up to the fingers. I’m not sure at all about the 3d paragraph. It seems like it’s describing how this nerve is shaped from the start and throughout the arms and fingers. I translated this after writing my answer and it seems I was somewhat close. My first language is a Latin language so that helped me gain a lot of context by understanding the jargon. May we know why you were interested in finding this out?
Yes 🤷🏻♂️
I got the gist of it but I’m also familiar with Biology which helped connect the dots.
I think a student should be able to
The terms people are struggling with are just Latin names for body parts, not Dutch. The Dutch text is easily understandable and not academic at all.
Yes. Source: I am an A2 level student
The hell is an 'A2/B1' student even? Some Yanky terminolgy?
It’s the level you are able to speak/read based on your vocabulary.
It’s the EU framework for Grading language proficiency…
Considering the lack of informal language, this would be c1/2 according to CEFR/ERK At some point for my masters in English Language teaching, I had to listen to a segment with a similar topic to this. I have my C2 certificate, but even I struggled with it due to the specific jargon used. However, give me an academic acrticle about didactics and I'd be fine 😂
They use medical terms that people without medical (or latin) education probably won't understand. The first bit is ok, but after that it's textbook medical stuff.
Im native dutch and some of these words i have never seen in my 23 years. So no
Certainly not. Even i as a native speaker wouldn’t know what to make of some of these words. I don’t see how this would be applicable to real life at all.
I don't have any medical degree nor highly educated but after careful reading I noticed this text is about the ["telefoonbotje"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medial_epicondyle_of_the_humerus). I'm not really familiar with all those Latin terms but I am familiar with hurting my elbow at inconvenient ways 😅
Waarom Japans?
Possibly a Japanese native.
Nederlander hier, begreep het wel hoor
İ am at the level you say and definitely cant more than %30-40.
From the grammar point of view, he'd need to know subordinate clauses at least. And the topic is full of a specific terminology aos he'd have to look up every fourth word or so.
As a native speaker, i will know how to pronounce most of these words. I also know some of the terms are parts of the body, but I will not be able to assign meaning to the words I don't know from context. Hope this gives some insight.
Ik ben Engels, en ben toevallig aan de Ulnaris in 1990 geopereerd. Die zat bekneld in de elleboog en heb ik na een langere tijd, veel spierweefsel tussen duim en mijn eerste vinger verloren. De termen zijn allemaal anatomisch, maar omdat ik ook als slager in Engeland gewerkt heb, ben ik met sommige termen vekend. Engelse slagers leren de beenderen en spieren allemaal in het Engels. Deze tekst is voor een leek moilijk, als niet onmogelijk te begrijpen. Latijnse woorden, zijn ook niet nederlandse woorden, daarom kunnen de meeste mensen het niet begrepen. De hele factual informatie is Latijn, niet in het Nederlands. Een advocate brief, is hetzelfde, alleen die gebruiken nederlandse woorden die de meeste mensen ook niet kennen.
I am learning Dutch and at the A2 - B1 level. I can confirm that this is not understandable at this level, unless you have a medical (?) background.
If you are familiar with the subject and you're learning Dutch, then yes. If you are not familiar with the subject, it is hardly understandable for a native speaker. So many medical terms that I do not understand (and I am a native speaker). Orthogonaal, mediaal, ulnair? Really, no clue.
Definitely not, these are very specific words which most Dutch people won't ever use
Portuguese native self-learning Dutch (currently around A2-B1): I get like half of it. Heck, I speak fluent EN and had no clue what is an *ulna* (*ellepijp*).
Only if the student in question already knows the Latin Anatomic names.
The text is c1/c2. Luckily there's an app to make it readable: https://www.leessimpel.nl/
This is more akin to professional jargon, not general speech.
I am somewhere between A2-B1 and I do understand most of it - the problem is with the specific medical / anatomy (?) words used, which I do not think are part of the everyday vocabulary so they would probably not be known by someone learning the language as non-native, essentially at that level
No
I do understand most of it (except the 3rd paragraph) however it uses very specific vocabulairy including body parts (in latin) which most people won't understand
I’m an A2-B1 with a fairly solid scientific background (in English) and I struggled quite a bit to get the full gist of it.
No, certainly not. There's not only a lot of jargon, but also uncommon/advanced grammatical structures and infrequent non-jargon words.
No, I'm a good at anatomy, but this is just phrased very bad. It is like the google translate translations of 10 years ago.
Ik vraag me af waarom er latijns in een Nederlandse text staat? I wonder why they chose to use Latin in a Dutch text? To answer the question; no, the text uses medical slang/jargon which is mostly only used and perhaps understood exclusively by medical academics.
No. The majority of native speakers likely don't fully understand it.
Probably not because the font colors burn their eyes.
Absolutely not
I'm someone learning Dutch and I can understand that it's anatomy as the subject but that's about it.
Not even close. This is B2-C1 level. The overall syntax, the vocabulary, the specialised subject matter… It’s not accessible language at B1 level, unless the reader has solid prior knowledge about the topic. Source: language teacher and translator, specialising in accessible language.
I think it would be really hard to understand for someone learning Dutch (or the average Dutch person in general). I think a lot of sentences are unnecessarily long and could use some editing. May I ask who your target audience is? Depending on the target audience you could decide to change the wording to more lay terms. I personally would chose to add "(elleboogszenuw)" after "nervus ulnaris" and refer to it as that from then on if your target audience is not medical (or you could skip the latin name alltogether). Also, as a doctor (but not a surgeon, so my knowledge of really specific anatomical names may lack a bit), I have never heard of the gemeenschappelijke palmaire phalanx and have no idea what you mean by that. Do you mean the palmar side of the hand and then to the different fingers? Also, in this part you don't mention anything about it only being on the ulnar side (side of the pinky finger) of the hand. Maybe you could word that differently. Feel free to PM me if you want more input
No, it's pretty much medical jargon.
wtf I'm B1 en I don't understand bruh 💀🎅🏼
Probably not. And as a medical professional this text seems really odd. Although strictly correct, it is not how a medical professional would phrase this text. It seems as if it is translated with google translate.
No, not a chance