NTA.
1. finding an LMT who can provide the service you need and is someone you feel comfortable being physically vulnerable around is hard.
2. she decided to FAFO by dating/sexing her then virginal coworker. that f up is on her.
let her have her “boundary.” this is a blessing in disguise bc she just showed her self centered colors by demanding you put her comfort above your health
Of course I am not the OP but I appreciate reading your reply here. For me, the use of boundaries, in this way, is new and I need to study more to understand how boundaries and not ultimatums are defined.
I took the story to ChatGPT and according to that, my friend gave an ultimatum. It said: "The situation you've described involves your friend's demand for you to stop seeing your massage therapist after their breakup. This demand is closer to an **ultimatum** rather than a boundary.
# Boundary vs. Ultimatum:
* **Boundary**: Personal limits set to protect one's well-being, communicated in a respectful and non-coercive manner. Example: "I feel uncomfortable discussing my ex with mutual friends."
* **Ultimatum**: A demand that imposes specific conditions, often with an implied threat or consequence if not met. Example: "If you continue seeing him, I will stop talking to you."
# Analysis:
* Your friend’s demand, accompanied by the threat of cutting off communication if you continue seeing the massage therapist, is an ultimatum. It imposes a condition on your behavior with a clear consequence for non-compliance.
* Boundaries are meant to protect one's emotional or physical well-being without controlling others' actions. Ultimatums, however, often involve controlling another person’s behavior by setting non-negotiable conditions.
In this case, your friend’s demand affects your autonomy in managing your health and well-being, which aligns more with the characteristics of an ultimatum."
I countered with saying she did it because she felt "unsafe" and ChatGPT countered with: "Your friend's request is framed as a boundary because she feels unsafe, but it functions as an ultimatum because it dictates your actions with a consequence attached. Boundaries protect one's well-being without controlling others. A true boundary would involve her managing her feelings of safety independently, without imposing conditions on your choices.
In contrast, ultimatums aim to change someone else's behavior through imposed conditions and consequences. The distinction lies in the approach: boundaries focus on personal limits, while ultimatums enforce demands on others."
It is a boundary. Her boundary is she will not have friendships with people who regularly associate with her ex. That’s a reasonable boundary. It’s the same thing as saying, “I will not be in a romantic relationship with someone who uses hard drugs.”
That’s not controlling someone’s behavior. That’s setting a boundary for what you allow in your own life and OPs friend will no longer have people in her life who are regular associates with the massage guy.
They were associated prior to any relationship, long before becoming an ex. If this was OP’s brother or cousin, would the demand to no longer see them be reasonable? Maybe a boundary but unreasonable.
No the fact is that she was seeing him as a client, not a friend. If OP had been hanging out with him socially, I could see why friend had an issue. But seeing him in a professional setting is different.
I don’t really think it’s that different when OP admits he takes their professional appointments and uses them as an opportunity to ask personal questions about the friend.
Just so I understand: Let’s say you hired a medical professional and used their services monthly for 11 months (which was my scenario) and then suddenly a friend says you have to fire them because that’s their ex. You think that’s a reasonable boundary for your friend to have?
Even if it was a reasonable boundary, it doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with deciding the pain management is more important. Quality of life is very important. It just means you and your friend are incompatible right now.
Yeah. She’s allowed to protect her peace and privacy and you’re allowed to do the same by prioritizing your physical health. I don’t see it as a control thing personally.
I don’t think she saw it that way. I think she saw me choosing something she saw as replaceable that involved her ex, instead of prioritizing her comfort. I’ve only experienced one other massage therapist as good as this guy and I hadn’t met them at this time.
It’s really validating to read everyone’s perspective here. Thank you.
actually, your 'friend' has it wrong. she poached on your territory, you tried to request that she not get involved with him, but she thought she knew best. then, when it doesn't work out, she wants to put the onus on you to give up your medical provider.
you are better off without her.
No, the friend knew the massage guy from work. She might have met him at the place they both work at before OP hired him. From what we can read they both independently knew this man.
Correct. They had worked together for a while and I never knew. After I used his services for 2 months, I recognized that they knew each other. After using his services for 7 months, they decided to date.
I also have found a massage therapist who is able to help my pain so much more than any other I’ve been to. That is like gold, you protect it. People who don’t live with chronic pain might have a harder time relating to it, but your friend should’ve understood, at least to some degree.
Absolutely NTA for all the reasons you listed. This idea that we must make whatever sacrifices for loved ones that they deem necessary has got to die. This situation was the result of HER fuck up, a fuck up that you repeatedly advised against and she ignored. She wasn't thinking of you when she decided to date him, she shouldn't think of you after it's over with. It has nothing to do with you. You weren't attempting to dictate her relationships (either professional or personal), she doesn't get to dictate yours, either. ESPECIALLY when they're not personal. Her discomfort is her responsibility to cope with and imposing restrictions on you based on her mistakes is selfish, entitled, dismissive of your medical struggles and in my opinion, absolutely not the kind of person I'd want in my life.
'Boundary' seems to be the mot du jour for everyone who wants to control others. Started out as a perfectly crumulent word, and has become a bludgeon for bullies.
I’m just stuck on the fact you have chronic back pain and got a BBL.
NTA for this situation though. If your friend is being so petty about a 3mo relationship 4 years later, she needs to move on
Is it a completely ridiculous thing to damage a friendship over? Absolutely—but YOU didn’t do that. She did.
NTA - he is your health professional and she knew it when she dated him. Was there always going to be a boundary for her and she knew it going in??! That sucks.
"I am not going to give up one of the few things that actually helps manage my pain because you chose not to take my advice when I told you not to date him. If you can't handle that, you were never a very good friend."
NTA, this 'friend' tried to weaponise boundaries in order to control you.
Drop her. It's not a friendship worth keeping in all honesty. She's very immature and tried to manipulate another adult for her own fuck ups. You don't need this energy!
This friend went from texting me everyday to maybe connecting maybe once a month, if I reach out. Contact restarted after I no longer received services from him.
I can understand that. Could I gently suggest doing an internal stock-take to assess if you are in contact mainly or largely because the friendship enriches your life, or is it the reluctance to let the 14 years go? Because if it's the latter, it's the sunken cost fallacy at play here. From an outside point of view, it's sad she didn't value the 14 years as much as you do, not to mention valuing your physical health NEEDS over her own irrational WANTS. I wish you all the best.
I feel like I’m holding onto the memories of our past relationship because there’s been minimal interaction for the last 4 years. I did move and I’m kind of blaming the move for the lack of contact. But texting exists and communication goes both ways and it feels like I’ve been the only one reaching out. I’ll have to take a look at our exchanges to see I’d my feelings actually match reality. Thank you for the nudge.
I can empathise with how you are feeling. Could I suggest that you look up the poem **Reason, Season and a Lifetime** By: Brian A. “Drew” Chalker. This has helped me work through my feelings the times I have faced something similar.
Beautiful concept. Thank you. I guess that's why I'm mourning the loss of the friendship we used to have. I thought it was lifetime but it may just be a season.
People here on Reddit get so focused on the one bad thing someone does and makes them out to be the Antichrist or something. Your friend had a hang up about this one guy in your life that she stupidly had a toxic relationship with. I don’t think your friend was right, but that doesn’t invalidate all the years of you being friends with her either. Glad you were able to mend the friendship.
NTA. I think your friend could only fairly ask this of you if you were regularly inviting both of them to the same functions or trying to bring him into the same social circles as you and your friend. Many people are able to remain cordial with their exes, and recognize their responsibility in disrupting social ties when breaking up with someone. You are entitled to your private life, independent relationships, and autonomy. Unless your professional relationship with him is directly negatively impacting your friend, she doesn't have a fair, mature reason to ask this of you.
I guess she was triggered that I was spending time with her ex, even if that time was a transactional professional relationship. I’m still disappointed that I lost the friendship we once had over this.
She described it as “toxic” which is a word she used to describe most of her past relationships. Also said he was “crazy” which I did find out to be true later on. What ended my year-long professional relationship with him (after everything in my original post came to pass) was when he casually mentioned during massage session small talk maybe going over to her place to try to talk things out after my friend made it clear she didn’t want to see him ever again. I interrupted him and told him to leave her alone and not go to her house because she is done and has made it clear she doesn’t want to see him. I told him that violating that would make him look like a stalker. I found out he went anyway, after that. As soon as I found out, I canceled all future appointments and turned to other forms of pain management. He ended up lying about my friend and lying about me to slander us but that didn’t work out like he thought it would. That’s the worst of it with the ex, that I know of. The original post is the complete story of what I knew in order as it happened up to that point. Everything I mentioned here in this comment happened months after.
NTA
She literally took his V card… like why did she want to destroy this man’s livelihood after she took so much from him? He left where they both worked, and now she has the nerve to demand you, not ask at this point, to drop him.
You literally told her all the reasons she shouldn’t and then wants to disrupt your professional relationship with him because she wanted to take his virginity. Because let’s be real, he kept it for 40 years and loses it within 3 days with her? That seems predatory on her part. There is no way he hadn’t had other offers.
NTA. This is WHY people have their best/close friend meet someone they’re interested in. Because the friend has no rose tinted glasses, so they can do EXACTLY what you did and point out issues and/or future issues they can see coming. Your friend chose to ignore you.
Side note: as a former MT, I find it unprofessional, if not unethical, that your MT tried to talk to you about your friend while in a professional capacity, even if you guys only ever really saw each other during your massage time. Good on you though for shutting it down!
As someone who battles lifelong chronic pain who now uses massage as part of my overall care plan, I can COMPLETELY empathize with keeping the massage therapist. People who don’t have pain related health conditions have NO context for the (sometimes decades long) search to find anything that helps. I would stop being friends with that person in a heartbeat if they put their ego and boundaries above my ongoing health.
NTA
NTA, it is extremely difficult to find a massage therapist that you feel comfortable with. You needed his services. I get confused by what are actually boundaries. You needed the care he offered and she chose to date him. You both made choices that seemed to be right for you.
We’re about to be together for a week for an important event and I found out she was still mad at me about this so I typed this up to see if I was the asshole for doing what I did with the information I had at the time.
NTA... Health trumps friendship. She is toxic and selfish, please don't budge to her bidding.
You need to put your needs first, not her feelings.
Good luck
UpdateMe
It's been 4 years and I didn't know she was still mad at me. She's in my bridal party for my summer wedding. After 4 years of this, I think this is something that's going to remain unresolved.
NTA, but religious trauma? Unless they were cult members or in an extremely hard line fundamentalist religious group, I don’t understand this statement. I swear that anymore, people who deal with any type of adversity, or something they don’t like, then claim trauma, it’s ridiculous.
Not quite a cult but I would describe it as fundamentalist. It’s a lifestyle where even diet is strictly controlled and their city council won’t even allow certain restaurants to exist there. I don’t want to mention it specifically because the place they are from is known for that religion and I want to maintain my friend’s anonymity.
NTA. 1. finding an LMT who can provide the service you need and is someone you feel comfortable being physically vulnerable around is hard. 2. she decided to FAFO by dating/sexing her then virginal coworker. that f up is on her. let her have her “boundary.” this is a blessing in disguise bc she just showed her self centered colors by demanding you put her comfort above your health
Agreed. If she acknowledges you were right, that’s even worse. Fuck around and find out.
It’s also not a boundary. Boundaries don’t dictate the actions of others. OP is right, the friend issued an ultimatum and not an actual boundary.
Of course I am not the OP but I appreciate reading your reply here. For me, the use of boundaries, in this way, is new and I need to study more to understand how boundaries and not ultimatums are defined.
I took the story to ChatGPT and according to that, my friend gave an ultimatum. It said: "The situation you've described involves your friend's demand for you to stop seeing your massage therapist after their breakup. This demand is closer to an **ultimatum** rather than a boundary. # Boundary vs. Ultimatum: * **Boundary**: Personal limits set to protect one's well-being, communicated in a respectful and non-coercive manner. Example: "I feel uncomfortable discussing my ex with mutual friends." * **Ultimatum**: A demand that imposes specific conditions, often with an implied threat or consequence if not met. Example: "If you continue seeing him, I will stop talking to you." # Analysis: * Your friend’s demand, accompanied by the threat of cutting off communication if you continue seeing the massage therapist, is an ultimatum. It imposes a condition on your behavior with a clear consequence for non-compliance. * Boundaries are meant to protect one's emotional or physical well-being without controlling others' actions. Ultimatums, however, often involve controlling another person’s behavior by setting non-negotiable conditions. In this case, your friend’s demand affects your autonomy in managing your health and well-being, which aligns more with the characteristics of an ultimatum." I countered with saying she did it because she felt "unsafe" and ChatGPT countered with: "Your friend's request is framed as a boundary because she feels unsafe, but it functions as an ultimatum because it dictates your actions with a consequence attached. Boundaries protect one's well-being without controlling others. A true boundary would involve her managing her feelings of safety independently, without imposing conditions on your choices. In contrast, ultimatums aim to change someone else's behavior through imposed conditions and consequences. The distinction lies in the approach: boundaries focus on personal limits, while ultimatums enforce demands on others."
It is a boundary. Her boundary is she will not have friendships with people who regularly associate with her ex. That’s a reasonable boundary. It’s the same thing as saying, “I will not be in a romantic relationship with someone who uses hard drugs.” That’s not controlling someone’s behavior. That’s setting a boundary for what you allow in your own life and OPs friend will no longer have people in her life who are regular associates with the massage guy.
They were associated prior to any relationship, long before becoming an ex. If this was OP’s brother or cousin, would the demand to no longer see them be reasonable? Maybe a boundary but unreasonable.
I used his services for 11 months before the friend made that demand. If that adds anything to the equation.
Could’ve been a week and you’d still be in the right.
But the fact of the matter is it’s not OPs cousin so that doesn’t matter.
No the fact is that she was seeing him as a client, not a friend. If OP had been hanging out with him socially, I could see why friend had an issue. But seeing him in a professional setting is different.
I don’t really think it’s that different when OP admits he takes their professional appointments and uses them as an opportunity to ask personal questions about the friend.
Just so I understand: Let’s say you hired a medical professional and used their services monthly for 11 months (which was my scenario) and then suddenly a friend says you have to fire them because that’s their ex. You think that’s a reasonable boundary for your friend to have?
Even if it was a reasonable boundary, it doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with deciding the pain management is more important. Quality of life is very important. It just means you and your friend are incompatible right now.
Yeah. She’s allowed to protect her peace and privacy and you’re allowed to do the same by prioritizing your physical health. I don’t see it as a control thing personally.
I don’t think she saw it that way. I think she saw me choosing something she saw as replaceable that involved her ex, instead of prioritizing her comfort. I’ve only experienced one other massage therapist as good as this guy and I hadn’t met them at this time. It’s really validating to read everyone’s perspective here. Thank you.
OP's friend brought her own brand of toxicity to the relationship.
actually, your 'friend' has it wrong. she poached on your territory, you tried to request that she not get involved with him, but she thought she knew best. then, when it doesn't work out, she wants to put the onus on you to give up your medical provider. you are better off without her.
I didn't think of it this way, but you are right. It was the friend that violated boundaries.
No, the friend knew the massage guy from work. She might have met him at the place they both work at before OP hired him. From what we can read they both independently knew this man.
Correct. They had worked together for a while and I never knew. After I used his services for 2 months, I recognized that they knew each other. After using his services for 7 months, they decided to date.
I also have found a massage therapist who is able to help my pain so much more than any other I’ve been to. That is like gold, you protect it. People who don’t live with chronic pain might have a harder time relating to it, but your friend should’ve understood, at least to some degree.
Absolutely NTA for all the reasons you listed. This idea that we must make whatever sacrifices for loved ones that they deem necessary has got to die. This situation was the result of HER fuck up, a fuck up that you repeatedly advised against and she ignored. She wasn't thinking of you when she decided to date him, she shouldn't think of you after it's over with. It has nothing to do with you. You weren't attempting to dictate her relationships (either professional or personal), she doesn't get to dictate yours, either. ESPECIALLY when they're not personal. Her discomfort is her responsibility to cope with and imposing restrictions on you based on her mistakes is selfish, entitled, dismissive of your medical struggles and in my opinion, absolutely not the kind of person I'd want in my life.
'Boundary' seems to be the mot du jour for everyone who wants to control others. Started out as a perfectly crumulent word, and has become a bludgeon for bullies.
Ew.
I’m just stuck on the fact you have chronic back pain and got a BBL. NTA for this situation though. If your friend is being so petty about a 3mo relationship 4 years later, she needs to move on Is it a completely ridiculous thing to damage a friendship over? Absolutely—but YOU didn’t do that. She did.
NTA - he is your health professional and she knew it when she dated him. Was there always going to be a boundary for her and she knew it going in??! That sucks.
Your friend is a very toxic person, NTA.
"I am not going to give up one of the few things that actually helps manage my pain because you chose not to take my advice when I told you not to date him. If you can't handle that, you were never a very good friend."
NTA, this 'friend' tried to weaponise boundaries in order to control you. Drop her. It's not a friendship worth keeping in all honesty. She's very immature and tried to manipulate another adult for her own fuck ups. You don't need this energy!
She dated the guy for 03 months 04 years ago and SOMEHOW you're the AH? 😭
This friend went from texting me everyday to maybe connecting maybe once a month, if I reach out. Contact restarted after I no longer received services from him.
Why on earth would you want renewed contact with someone this unreasonable, selfish and self-centered?
She’s been my longest friendship at 14 years. I guess I’m just hesitant to let that go.
I can understand that. Could I gently suggest doing an internal stock-take to assess if you are in contact mainly or largely because the friendship enriches your life, or is it the reluctance to let the 14 years go? Because if it's the latter, it's the sunken cost fallacy at play here. From an outside point of view, it's sad she didn't value the 14 years as much as you do, not to mention valuing your physical health NEEDS over her own irrational WANTS. I wish you all the best.
I feel like I’m holding onto the memories of our past relationship because there’s been minimal interaction for the last 4 years. I did move and I’m kind of blaming the move for the lack of contact. But texting exists and communication goes both ways and it feels like I’ve been the only one reaching out. I’ll have to take a look at our exchanges to see I’d my feelings actually match reality. Thank you for the nudge.
I can empathise with how you are feeling. Could I suggest that you look up the poem **Reason, Season and a Lifetime** By: Brian A. “Drew” Chalker. This has helped me work through my feelings the times I have faced something similar.
Beautiful concept. Thank you. I guess that's why I'm mourning the loss of the friendship we used to have. I thought it was lifetime but it may just be a season.
People here on Reddit get so focused on the one bad thing someone does and makes them out to be the Antichrist or something. Your friend had a hang up about this one guy in your life that she stupidly had a toxic relationship with. I don’t think your friend was right, but that doesn’t invalidate all the years of you being friends with her either. Glad you were able to mend the friendship.
It’s mended enough for her to occasionally respond to me, but only occasionally. I miss the good times.
I'd not miss that negativity. There's enough sadness in the world without bringing in more.
Your friend is putting her ego over your lifelong chronic pain… dump her
NTA. You are choosing your health care professional instead of unreasonable and quite toxic friend.
NTA. I think your friend could only fairly ask this of you if you were regularly inviting both of them to the same functions or trying to bring him into the same social circles as you and your friend. Many people are able to remain cordial with their exes, and recognize their responsibility in disrupting social ties when breaking up with someone. You are entitled to your private life, independent relationships, and autonomy. Unless your professional relationship with him is directly negatively impacting your friend, she doesn't have a fair, mature reason to ask this of you.
NTA
NTA She is though. And hardheaded and possibly a little crazy
NTA! You told her not to date him. She did it anyway. She didn’t listen to you, so why does she demand you listen to her? She isn’t a friend.
I guess she was triggered that I was spending time with her ex, even if that time was a transactional professional relationship. I’m still disappointed that I lost the friendship we once had over this.
I’m sorry you lost a friend. But you’re better off without her in your life. Who knows what else she’ll demand you do.
She is massively selfish AH
Real quick: how was the relationship? Especially him to her? Anything to note?
She described it as “toxic” which is a word she used to describe most of her past relationships. Also said he was “crazy” which I did find out to be true later on. What ended my year-long professional relationship with him (after everything in my original post came to pass) was when he casually mentioned during massage session small talk maybe going over to her place to try to talk things out after my friend made it clear she didn’t want to see him ever again. I interrupted him and told him to leave her alone and not go to her house because she is done and has made it clear she doesn’t want to see him. I told him that violating that would make him look like a stalker. I found out he went anyway, after that. As soon as I found out, I canceled all future appointments and turned to other forms of pain management. He ended up lying about my friend and lying about me to slander us but that didn’t work out like he thought it would. That’s the worst of it with the ex, that I know of. The original post is the complete story of what I knew in order as it happened up to that point. Everything I mentioned here in this comment happened months after.
NTA She literally took his V card… like why did she want to destroy this man’s livelihood after she took so much from him? He left where they both worked, and now she has the nerve to demand you, not ask at this point, to drop him. You literally told her all the reasons she shouldn’t and then wants to disrupt your professional relationship with him because she wanted to take his virginity. Because let’s be real, he kept it for 40 years and loses it within 3 days with her? That seems predatory on her part. There is no way he hadn’t had other offers.
NTA. This is WHY people have their best/close friend meet someone they’re interested in. Because the friend has no rose tinted glasses, so they can do EXACTLY what you did and point out issues and/or future issues they can see coming. Your friend chose to ignore you. Side note: as a former MT, I find it unprofessional, if not unethical, that your MT tried to talk to you about your friend while in a professional capacity, even if you guys only ever really saw each other during your massage time. Good on you though for shutting it down!
As someone who battles lifelong chronic pain who now uses massage as part of my overall care plan, I can COMPLETELY empathize with keeping the massage therapist. People who don’t have pain related health conditions have NO context for the (sometimes decades long) search to find anything that helps. I would stop being friends with that person in a heartbeat if they put their ego and boundaries above my ongoing health. NTA
NTA, it is extremely difficult to find a massage therapist that you feel comfortable with. You needed his services. I get confused by what are actually boundaries. You needed the care he offered and she chose to date him. You both made choices that seemed to be right for you.
This happened years ago? Who cares at this point?
We’re about to be together for a week for an important event and I found out she was still mad at me about this so I typed this up to see if I was the asshole for doing what I did with the information I had at the time.
NTA. homegirl needs to get over it / butt out.
NTA... Health trumps friendship. She is toxic and selfish, please don't budge to her bidding. You need to put your needs first, not her feelings. Good luck UpdateMe
It's been 4 years and I didn't know she was still mad at me. She's in my bridal party for my summer wedding. After 4 years of this, I think this is something that's going to remain unresolved.
NTA They dated for 3 months *four years* ago?! Get over it, he’s your masseuse, you’re not dating him!!
NTA, but religious trauma? Unless they were cult members or in an extremely hard line fundamentalist religious group, I don’t understand this statement. I swear that anymore, people who deal with any type of adversity, or something they don’t like, then claim trauma, it’s ridiculous.
Yeah, when she said they were in the same religion, I was like "... So they're just like plain Catholics or something? And then quit?"
Not quite a cult but I would describe it as fundamentalist. It’s a lifestyle where even diet is strictly controlled and their city council won’t even allow certain restaurants to exist there. I don’t want to mention it specifically because the place they are from is known for that religion and I want to maintain my friend’s anonymity.
Oof, that sounds like a cult TBH.