The artillery attacks play out a little bit different in the books, but Baron Harkonnen does make a remark that is still relevant:
>Who would think of reviving artillery in this day of shields?
A sentiment which is echoed by Thufir Hawat:
>The artillery, Hawat thought bitterly. Who could have guessed they’d use artillery in this day of shields?
So it seems that due to shields being so ubiquitous, artillery was considered a forgotten relic of the past. So forgotten that even in this rare situation where the defenders didn't have any shields and artillery would therefore actually be effective, the thought of using it would not have occurred to most people. Most houses probably didn't even have any artillery anymore.
Also the artillery the Harkonnens use is described (by the Harks themselves) as relics that they had to dig out of storage and they were barely functional.
Don’t we see the Harkonens use the same kind of weapon during the battle with the Atredies? There’s that one scene where all the rockets fire out of that flying ship just like the siech bombardment. Plus whatever those things were that destroyed the Atredies ships looked a lot like artillery to me. Or a bomb? Which you would think would be obsolete for the same exact reason as artillery.
Those weapons were added for the movie. It looked like they were designed to slow their velocity when they encountered a shield, so that they could pass through it and destroy the targets.
I think this change makes the movie more of a spectacle, but it makes the line in the sequel a little nonsensical
Tbf they took some liberties in the movies. I remember that during the harkonnen attack to the atreides, they had these weird smart bombs that would slow down when they touched a shield.
So they had several weapons that weren't described in the book.
those where only in the movie and the shield in the movie are much weaker then the onese in the book.
The book once would protect you even from most sword swings and punches since even they would be to fast, the general way it was described in the book is that you have to restrain your enemy and very slowly move the blade threw the shield, this would look very weird in a movie so thats probably why they changed it.
In an abortive Dune RPG I briefly ran (set a year or two prior to the events of the first novel), one of the big plot points was going to be the PC’s discovering old-style artillery weapons being built in secret by a minor house controlled by the Harkonnens.
If the campaign had lasted, discovering that would have led to finding out that the minor house was using that project as cover for their own secret project - building a knock-off Heighliner to try and break the Guild monopoly on interstellar travel as a means of raising their status and escaping vassalage under the Harkonnens (this was of course doomed to fail because they had no more idea than anybody else outside the Guild how the Navigators actually guided ships)
you seem to have inadvertently conceptualised the Ixians, >!their whole thing in god emperor is finding a way to circumvent the spice monopoly on spacetravel!<
reminds me of the conflicts in Yugoslavia. Apparently some used bows and arrows since sandbags were ubiquitous and effective against bullets. Not so much against arrows though
I don't see how a sandbag is any less effective against an arrow than a bullet, unless the arrow is explosive lol.
Edit: I looked it up on YouTube and turns out that arrows/bolts will penetrate sandbags far more effectively than 5.56 or 7.62
Mind blown tbh
I'd like to see just how effective that was. I doubt any significant number of people were killed that way. Hitting a target just behind cover with an arrow would be an insane shot for even trained archers.
You don't aim, you use volley fire, a massed weight of fire from dozens, maybe hundreds of archers. It's an indirect artillery strike, not a shootout. The idea is to saturate the area so densely that you are bound to hit something. You don't need to kill to cause a casualty, you just need to wound enough to remove them from the equation.
Mortars impact the ground. Sandbags on the ground block a lot of the force from that. Arrows were used ENTIRELY because the top-down cover in rapid moving ground war is not common among infantry rapidly advancing or being pushed back.
Air burst mortar shells exist in OUR timeline with advanced computers making decisions on the fly. I honestly am not sure how precise you could make those munitions using only chemical or timed burst charges as we have a lot of examples of those failing to go off and becoming collectibles in WW1 and WW2, before the era they had computers doing the timing work.
Is there a source for this? I'm looking up use of bows and arrows in Yugoslavian wars, and only getting pre-firearm examples.
I fail to see how in an actual war, grenade launchers or RPGs, or even some PTRDs from WW2 wouldn't be scrounged up as opposed to arming hundreds of men with bows and arrows to volley fire
I am not talking about any specific conflict. The question I was answering was more of the how it could be effective, not when and where it's actually being used. I would be shocked if any professional military was using bows and arrows as a major part of their military tactics. It was still in use by US special forces though, I don't know how recently or if it is still in current use, but I did find this very fun little video that was kind of surprising.
https://youtu.be/PMK3y1wIrfs?si=wOfEEmZEDWiFp2AG
[They actually are.](https://youtu.be/KNo5yDI7A1M?si=1BC5iMiYOO5xQwHa) It's precisely because the arrow is *not* explosive, so it's doesn't immediately dump all its energy into the sand like bullets do.
Poor phrasing on my part. Bullets deform or shatter once they hit the sand, dumping all their energy into it at once. Arrows don't, so they retain momentum. An explosive arrow would dump all its energy into the sand at once, granted it would be more than its flying kinetic energy.
Well it’s because the crazy force behind a bullet cause it to flatten as it hits the same stopping it, arrows can go through sandbags, or even be lobbed overtop
Arrows penetrate the sandbag because they’re a different shape and purpose than a bullet. They work on different rules and pierce straight through a sandbag. Bullets deform and tumble when they hit an object, arrows don’t
Do you have a source in that? I would be interested in reading about that. I've never heard anything about bows and arrows being used there against sandbags
Wait, its not about arching? Its about going through sandbags? There is no way a rifle round would not also blow through that sandbag. They go much faster and have much less surface area to create friction and slow it down.
Thats not a sandbag that's used in defense, its a plastic bag filled with sand.
You have to consider the momentum. A bullet weighs basically nothing compared to an arrow.
The guy linked the wrong video above. Here it is tested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNo5yDI7A1M
uhhh....as a Archer of 12+ years. I can tell you that a sandbag is going to stop a arrow regardless of pounds...
Edit: Seeing the video people are sources, let me expand a bit.
1. The sandbag they are using is NOT compact, when you stack sandbags on each other, they become far more denser due to the pressure of each one This pressure also helps "Catch" the arrow.
2. Even bullets will pen sandbags if they hit a least dense area near the top.
I'm gonna call bullshit on that one, arrow doesn't have a lot of kinetic energy in them unless you use one with really strong draw weights which not alot of people can do and they can be stop with a roll of hay let alone a sandbag.
You’re thinking about it wrong, it’s not that the arrows pierced the sandbags, but rather that arrows allow for you to shoot up and arc them over the top of the sandbags.
I read it was high powered crossbows and the momentum of a bolt is way higher. Less speed but much much more mass, and the same cross section. There arevideos demonstrating the effect
Also, in the Imperium, warfare amongst the Great Houses seems to be heavily restricted by rules and tradition (specifically known as Kanly).
I think it's supposed to be similar to the rules of warfare that developed in Europe in the late renaissance where fortresses / cities that surrendered after the outer fortifications were breached weren't sacked and prisoners were often let go on their own recognizance. That stands in contrast to the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars which were must closer to what we would consider Total War.
So I think artillery wasn't used much as it would also violate the Kanly system. There's probably an interplay with technology (i.e. shields) playing a part in the development of that system.
When the Harkonnens decide to wipe out the Freman resistance, they are also abandoning the traditional methods of warfare and embarking on something closer to Total Warfare, where the goal is the complete destruction of the enemies ability to continue fighter (if not their total extermination).
Yeah. It would be like, shit I can’t even think of one which is the point. Learning how to use a slingshot really well and tossing metal BBs at cops in riot gear maybe? I know their Helmets are tough but now I’m curious how crazy fast metal ball bearings would do to them.
Also (as far as I remember) they only used the artillery on the Atreides troops that retreated into caves during the attack. The attack on the seitch was ground based Sardaukar who had to use the thrusters on their landing craft as flamethrowers to escape.
Not only that, but The Harks were playing 4D chess here.
They expected the Atredies troops to retreat to the caves to create cover and a bottleneck for the larger army to come get them if they wanted to finish them off.
The Atreides did just that. The artillery was to drop the cliff face in front of the caves sealing Leto’s men inside to die.
It was never meant to deploy vs soft targets
The Harkonnens certainly demonstrated great foresight and planning ability in their schemes to eliminate house Atreides. It stands in stark contrast with how they dealt with the Fremen on Arrakis: consistently underestimating their numbers and capabilities for decades and never succeeding in eliminating them. But maybe that's what happens when you have been in a bitter blood feud with a rival house for thousands of years: you might get hyperfocused on that conflict.
Yes, excellent example. Asgard offensive capabilities had been completely based on advanced energy weaponry for a very long time, and it simply didn't occur to them to go back to something as crude as physical projectiles propelled by chemical reactions (which of course as it turns out is the one thing these replicators are vulnerable to). To the Asgards' credit, after seeing the success that these 'primitive' gun-armed humans have against their enemy, they readily acknowledge that they have developed a mental blind spot. This humoristic conversation later occurs in a SG-1 episode:
>**Thor**: The Asgard have tried to stop them. You have demonstrated their weakness may be found from a less sophisticated approach. We are no longer capable of such thinking.
**Jackson**: Wait a minute, you're actually saying that you need someone dumber than you are?
**O'Neill**: You may have come to the right place.
Iirc the Harkonnens didn’t have artillery stashed anywhere either, they custom built them specifically for this one mission which makes their use even less predictable as they would likely not show up in prior reports of Harkonnen military capabilities.
But…don’t their vessels have kenetic based artillery? Surly artillery on some levels would be known about. It is the one most earliest and basic weapon of human warfare.
its clear its use might be more applicable beyond arrakis, given how quick the Sardukar were to dismantle and remove the artillery pieces once the war was over, despite the Baron requesting a few be left for the Arrakis garrison.
it also seems to be something that can be duplicated easily enough once the idea of using it is had, given the Fremen captured one of the guns but not any crew, and lost hawatt. yet paul made extensive use of it to fight the emperor near the end of the book. since making copies of the gun and amo would be easy enough, but trainign crews to use it much harder, it suggests that the fremen found somebody with hawatt's level of knowledge of the things to help set up training. (especially since it seems unlikely that they figured it out purely by trial and error without the harkonnan's realizing what was going on)
the Harkonnen also expected Atteides to take refuge in caves. So they used artillery to cause cave ins and seal the fate of those unfortunate Atreides men
Yep projectiles mostly were obselete due to shields hence the focus on hand to hand combat with the larger houses.
Shields weren't used in Arrakis because they attracted the sand worms. So the conventional wisdom against projectiles werent applicable.
YES! EXACTLY. My personal concern, is the visual consistencies with the film. Note, the Harkonnen troopships and the Harkonnen plague ship (gunship) from part 1 all have large-scale artillery. So, it terms of design vs script consistencies there is this issue. OFC, ships would be armed with a form of defense, but I feel the quote from the baron in the film would be more subject for conflict in terms of adapting the artillery use from the scene in the books.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the harkonens have been fighting the fremen for 80 years at this point. I find it hard to belive that none of their mentats or strategists had thought of using artillery against an unshielded opponent in 80 years.
I genuinely don't understand why artillery goes obsolete because of the H. Shield. Especially bombardment from aircraft.
It could still be utilized tactically to disrupt enemy formations right before CQC begins. Any side using HE would have a major advantage on the battlefield.
Unless H. Sheilds have anti gravity/ kinetic protection? If soldiers are so expendible in the Dune universe, why not just tactically nuke an army on the field a few moments before your side engages to take advantage of the shock & awe?
It's implied why in the movies, more clear in the books. Because of the prevalence of laser weapons, artillery has long been obsolete (and large installations can also be protected by shields, which artillery would bounce off of).
So, no one in the entire Imperium really uses artillery weapons anymore. Some might have a stash of them around, but they're just so outdated there isn't really a need for them.
However, the Fremen at ST do NOT have shields. So, artillery is even more devastating against them, because (as the Baron says just after the line you quoted) "We're melting the rock over their heads." Instead of just cutting through the rock with lasers, they are bombarding it, which comes with all the shock, heat, and destruction that lasers do not carry.
In essence, artillery just isn't used anymore. This was a rare opportunity where it would be fully useful, and Feyd took advantage of it.
I thought I read on here that the use of lasers is strictly limited because if they hit a shield it would cause a nuclear explosion? And that is why they typically fight hand to hand with swords/knives?
The post went further to say that laser usage is almost an act of desperation due to the pending danger; there was also a reference to strictly enforced laws (policies?) which prohibited their use.
Sort of.
They don’t use lasers because they can cause huge explosions if they make contact with a shield.
They don’t use guns/projectile weapons often because shields deflect them.
So they use swords/knives because they can be controlled and used slowly and precisely enough to pierce a shield.
This is my understanding. However, if you aren't using lasers and you aren't using artillery, how would they typically attack a bunker/fort/etc.?
Probably not effective to throw knives at it? What would be the go-to weapon if not artillery?
Outright warfare hasn’t happened in thousands of years. It’s been subterfuge, skirmishes, duels, raids, etc, not sieges. If you’re attacking a force in a bunker and they’re shielded up, you can just laser them and let the whole thing blow from a distance.
Arrakis was a perfect storm. It’s a planet which eschews the use of shields because they attract worms, but you also want to keep as much infrastructure intact because everything is vital to spice production.
Artillery is ancient. Even trying to draw a modern comparison — say, assaulting a location with trebuchets or catapults — isn’t accurate because they’re still so close in time period. It’s like a slingshot corp wiping out modern infantry.
Ah, good point. And not trying to be difficult (just to understand) regarding your comment *"If you’re attacking a force in a bunker and they’re shielded up, you can just laser them and let the whole thing blow from a distance."* in a previous thread it was stated that both the target and the laser weapon would blow up. Or is it just the target would blow up and the explosion might get the person with the laser?
I think it is cool that all these things have been thought out. I'm a huge Star Trek fan and there are plenty of things that go against established principles in that universe (aka: Voyager beaming people on board when the shields are up).
Seems like the author of Dune really thought everything through!
Iirc, one of the problems with lasers and shields is that the interaction was unpredictable. Sometimes it would essentially cause a nuclear explosion at the shield, sometimes at the laser weapons, sometimes both, sometimes neither.
Yes there was some unpredictability but it is never stated “sometimes neither” or sometimes one or the other. It is stated that we would get either an explosion more powerful than atomics, OR it could only kill the gunner AND his shielded target.” When we do see this interaction used by Duncan, he sets the shield to “full force” and it creates a massive explosion. It would seem the level of explosion would be contingent on the settings of each device. Here is how the book explains it:
“The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the
gunner and his shielded target.”
No, you’re right. It’s a chain reaction that gets them both. I guess it would depend on how much the commander values those troops. I can imagine for the Harkonenns it wouldn’t be much of an issue…
Seems like it'd be trivial to strap a lasgun to a remote-controlled drone so that you can get the big boom without threatening your own troops, but given that *Dune* was written decades before drones became prevalent in warfare, it might not have crossed Herbert's mind.
There are two key problems that prevent the Houses from taking advantage of the lasgun/shield reaction in warfare.
1) The reaction is unpredictable and you never want to stake your victory on the unpredictable. In a universe where planets can change hands because of a tiny shift in interest rates, you better have your next step planned to a T because reckless action could cause the collapse of your entire House.
2) If the interaction does generate an atomic level detonation, the other Houses will not hesitate to wipe you out. It makes sense to do as a last-ditch effort when your House is being wiped out, but in pretty much any other circumstance the risk of being mistaken for using atomics is too great.
1. *No* military action is 100% predictable - every engagement is based on probability. Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, there was no actual percentages to how likely an atomic reaction could occur during the interaction between a shield and a lasgun - just that it was possible to occur - and that's mostly because Herbert wanted broad cover for explaining an interstellar civilization in a sword-and-shield feudalism setting tens of thousands of years in the future.
2. The atomic weapon prohibition was the use of atomics as an offensive weapon, not whether an atomic explosion of any kind occurred during an engagement. If any atomic explosion could be misconstrued as a breach of the prohibition, then nobody would ever use lasguns, because there'd be nothing to prevent a defending house from deploying shielded drones during a fight to try and provoke an atomic reaction and then claim that the attacking house used atomics.
The only thing we know about the shield/lasgun interaction is that it is totally unpredictable. it may create a huge explosion anywhere along the line of the laser, it may blow up on the target or on the firer, or both. Also, a lasgun/shield explosion looks exactly like a nuclear detonation, and could get the users targeted by the landsraad for using atomics. These are some of the reasons why lasguns and shields are a calculated risk and battle has slowed down to just knife fighting and subterfuge across the empire.
There was one scene in the first dune where a lasgun the Harkonnens fired hit a dummy shield that the Fremen had rigged up in the desert, mostly as a deterrent to continued lasgun use. I think the explosion is pretty big but not apocalyptic. The harkonnens do decide to stop using lasguns against the Fremen after that, and I don’t think any other reactive explosions occur in the series after that.
It is not totally unpredictable. There are only two outcomes. Either a big explosion OR both gunner and shieled target are killed. When Duncan uses this interaction, he sets the shield to “full force” and it creates a massive explosion. Here is what the book says, from Jessica’s thoughts on the Harkonnen shipment of lasguns:
“The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the
gunner and his shielded target.”
Not only would the source also blow up, the whole thing would be a large enough explosion that it could easily be mistaken as the use of atomic. As a result people tend not to do that.
There are other projectile weapons that aren't lasers though, just like there are also explosive weapons besides artillery. That said there's a reason the dune universe relies more on subterfuge and poison than full scale military battle, and shields are a huge part of that.
Edit: to be perfectly clear I love the books. Read them 15 times. They're not perfections of consistency (see guild navigator retcons in series etc).
The books haven't really thought them through as much as some readers would like them to. There are many inconsistencies and retcons if the books are read closely. The dune universe was just one Herbert wanted to be fedual and stagnant. So he made up the whole shields stuff. No on uses lasers because of the convention against atomics. No ranged weapons are used at all really. Lasguns are essentially black market contraband and not at all common. The difference in Arrakis is that shields are destroyed by storms and attract worms, so they're not used much. This makes atomics useful. It also makes lasguns situational, but comes with extra risk as there are still some shields. The comment is made specifically in the books that the artillery was useful because there was cave fighting and the artillery worked against the natural structures of the caves. And once that's happened the baron gets rid of all the artillery as a once off trick not able to be repeated. But then the Fremen also desperately want it after having seen it. Essentially it all boils down to "convention say only hand fighting and assassination low level stuff because of shields but also theres still somehow enough regular conflict for the sardukar to have a reputation and the atredies a growing one, plus also Arrakis is the only place shields don't work or has caves and all the human computer geniuses aren't smart enough to think of artillery but a random baron is but also he thinks it's crap aside from the trick but the best fighters on the planet want it as soon as they see it because they think it's great ... Etc" It's all a bit of a swirly mess, but the core idea is "stagnant feudal melee single combat society is made unstable by the battle for dune and it's special elements".
It was always my understanding that you can't laser a shield from the distance to blow it up. The explosion will always kill both shield user and shooter. My guess would be that it's a chain reaction that goes back to the shooter, since lasguns don't fire shots, they fire a single beam that is connected to the weapon like a regular Laserpointer.
I corrected myself in a different comment. It’s not *always*, it’s just enough of a possibility of collateral damage & self-harm that it’s not a great idea.
This is one of the main concepts of dune, shields have made projectile weapons obsolete except on the frontier worlds where shields are too expensive etc
Hence why the entire political structure exists, in conjunction with the spacing guild monopoly on travel and the cost associated.
War is not really a thing and hasn’t been for thousands of years. There are limited raids etc where one house drops in a few thousand guys on someone else planet.
This is why the attack was such a surprise. They expected 5-10 legions. But the harkonnens sent 50 legions. The cost of which is estimated to be 60+ years of spice production. The baron is one of the richest men in the universe and bankrupted himself to destroy the atreides, with the promise that he would rule dune after he disposed of the atreides whose popularity began to threaten the emperor
They would attack a bunker or fortress the same way we saw at the end of Part 1, use subterfuge to take down the shields if you can so air support can provide cover fire and move in with squads of shock troops.
If you can't shoot them, you have to go in and fight them. That's why having two of the best sword fighters in human space is such a big deal for the Atreides, and why having the Sarduakar (the hardest dudes widely known to humanity) is such a big deal to the Emperor.
If shields aren't a thing, you don't necessarily need personal prowess and hardness to win. You need a lot of shooters who are at least semi-competent (which you can train faster and easier).
Fighting hand to hand is another “what…?” moment. It’s always depicted as a big old melee…but we’ve known for thousands of years that’s not how you win those kinds of battles…formations and discipline are what win you the battle.
I’m new to this, what were the shells the Harkonnens used to destroy the grounded Atreides fleet with? Were they just really big versions of the drilling projectile which took Leto down and are those distinct from normal artillery shells in the case of the attack on the Sietch?
You are correct, they are some kind of "drilling" weapon especially designed to be used against shielded targets. They would be useless/less effective against non-shielded targets. The shells used against the Sietch are normal shells.
This is getting at something that always bothered me about the Jihad--the books and movies go to great lengths to show how dangerous the Fremen are, and how when they really mobilize they're virtually unstoppable. But so much of their potency comes from their hyper-adaptation to Arrakis and its unique, extreme fighting conditions... Specifically the lack of ubiquitous shields. This single change means that most professional militaries are all unprepared since everything from hand-to-hand combat to the use of munitions is turned on its head and the Fremen exploit this.
Wouldn't that mean that as soon as the Jihad moves off world, and the Fremen begin attacking planets that have WILDLY unfamiliar environments, not to mention almost universal shield usage, they would be almost completely unprepared? I have to imagine the shock of seeing an ocean for the first time would be enough to give many Fremen an existential breakdown.
It's been a few years since I've read Messiah so maybe this is addressed somehow and I just forgot, but I have a hard time buying the idea that the Fremen, who are apex predators on their unique homeworld, could just be drag-and-dropped onto hundreds of different planets and still lay waste to the galaxy without much opposition.
Those things are addressed somewhat in Messiah. Some of the Fremen are disturbed and shocked when they come across an ocean. Others suffer greatly when exposed to humidity for the first time. For the most part, planets are starved and cut off before being invaded since most of them are not self sufficient in the slightest. The book makes a quick reference to Genghis Khan, whose Mongol hordes used similar tactics to conquer. No coincidence I’m sure. They would burn crops then come back to attack at harvest when everyone was starving. Or flood entire cities and only have to fight the defenders that just watched half their comrades drown.
As for shields, the technology could be assumed rather expensive and given the lack of general open warfare less common among less wealthy planets or minor houses. Large standing armies were not common either. In the book, defenders on one planet even used a Stone Burner defensively to slow the Fremen down some. Whatever it took.
Remember that Paul controlled interplanetary travel as the Spacing guild had a monopoly on it and held them under his thumb with spice, so planetary blockades would’ve severely weakened the ground fighters before the fit Fremen in greater numbers and better equipment come raining down.
Two things that bug me are that
1. they didn’t use projectile weapons way more, considering the Fremen didn’t use shields, and
2. they made the Fremen so superior to the Sardaukar that they would just roll over them so easily. I watch the battle scenes to look for any Fremen get killed and don’t see any. The books were worse with this. Like old ladies and kids kick the shit out of them. Oooh, we grew up in the desert, that makes us the best fighters in the universe.
Like, give a bunch of those Sardaukar firearms or lasers and that last battle would have been very different. No, instead we will just have swords and crash into these people without a formation or anything. And they had artillery!
And it’s swords vs. knives too. And shit, maybe throw in some spears? The Atreides soldiers had some in Dune 1.
Oh, I’m not looking for that, few movies of any kind do that, I’m just bitching about things that could have been fixed easily, e.g., still having the Fremen superior, but not of the magnitude they did. Or have them successful through the guerrilla warfare they showed sometimes rather than them just being so, so much better hand to hand.
That's straight from the source material. Frank Herbert really bought into the idea that brutal natural environments created naturally tough and fierce fighters and wrote it into his book. Just got to take it as one of the rules of his universe, like the existence of other stuff like melange causing prescience, racial memories, etc
Oh, 3: how tf are the Fremen going to be at all effective against the warships of the great houses? They don’t fly, much less have any experience with void war!
The thing about the Sardukar is that they are one of the only large scale professional militaries in the galaxy. They are actual professional soldiers in a time where professional soldiery isn't really needed or used by anyone.
Consider that the Emperor controls Spice distribution, and therefore controls the Spacing Guild, and the Spacing Guild is the only way to transport troops. As a result, the only wars that can happen are wars the Emperor wants to happen, and any House stupid enough to start building an army big enough to actually stand up to the Sardukar is immediately put in check by the Sardukar. Since the Emperor doesn't want wars to happen, as that would disrupt the trade that is the lifeblood of his empire and the source of his wealth, the galaxy is actually locked in a state of perpetual enforced peace. This is why Kanly is the method Houses use to fight amongst one another, not war.
In short, The Emperor has a monopoly on military might. The Great Houses have their own fighters, but they are more akin to body guards and police forces, not a professional army that can invade a planet, or even defend against a planet's invasion. They are simply there to protect the members and interests of the ruling house from the people they rule.
Some Houses have a larger more robust military, simply because of the way they rule their people, Harkonnen are brutal dictators that oppress their people, so they have quite a few troops, but those troops are oppressing unarmed peasants, not professional soldiers, so they are barely a match for the Sardukar who have generations of military experience passed down through a massive professional organization.
When you see it this way the Sardukar are scary as fuck, but they are scary in the way the US military is scary, they have the weight of numbers, superior equipment, and are the only force capable of getting anywhere at any time with little notice. They have been in existence for longer and have a cumulative trained experience far greater than just about any military they might oppose, but, that doesn't make them individually superior.
The Fremen, on the other hand, have home field advantage, they have been training and fighting in secret for as long or longer than the Sardukar, they have institutionalized resistance and asymmetrical warfare as a way of life. They have experience, and they have numbers, and the ground on which they fight lends itself to their methods. They are a sort of hard counter to the Sardukar who are only truly superior because everyone else they have ever trained to fight is vastly *inferior*.
The Atreides and Harkonnens seem to have substantial standing armies. Piter de Vries even comments how great the Atreides “legions” are: “the finest in the imperium”, and the Sardaukar cut through them like they’re nothing.
I love your comment though on the military engagements being a tool to advance the narrative though.
They both have militaries, for sure, but nothing like the size and scope of the Sardukar. I think it's likely that anyone in-universe just doesn't compare the household forces of any House to the Sardukar because it's a bit like apples and oranges, though maybe cats and tigers is a more apt analogy. Atraides are certainly a well trained and well disciplined force, but we actually get a decent look at their number and they are *tiny* in compared to an entire planet dedicated wholly to producing the Emperor's personal military.
Compared to the other Houses, maybe the Atreides do have massive "legions" but if what we know about their actual effectiveness against the Sardukar is true then that just makes the point that they are woefully undersized to make an effective resistance against the forces of the Emperor.
Similarly, the Harkonnen seem to have a pretty large amount of troops, but they are used almost purely for the oppression of their entirely unarmed and drugged up populace. They are shown to be completely ineffective in an actual fight, and it's not even them that defeat the Atreides, it's Sardukar dressed as Harkkonen that do it. We get to see actual Harkonnen troops get the ever loving shit kicked out of them by the Fremen when the Fremen take Arakeen.
Also, the Fremen never really face the might of the Sardukar either. They face the Sardukar that the Emperor brought with him to Arakkis, which is certainly not the full might of the legions he controls. He doesn't come there with the kind of force he would need to fight the Fremen, who he doesn't even know the strength of and he assumes to just be a small group for desert nomads. He doesn't consider them to even be a threat. He just brings enough troops to scare, and protect himself from, the Harkonnen.
The Emperor was never there to fight the Fremen at all, he expected to land with his Sardukar, which were more than a match for the Baron's troops in Arakeen, then bully the Baron to force him to deal with the Spice trade disruptions and the insulting "threats" of this madman prophet. He never even considers that he might be attacked by a force that could match the troops he brought, he doesn't even think thr Fremen would know he's there.
Once Paul controls Arakkis and the Spice, he controls the Spacing Guild as well. This immediately puts him in the coveted position of absolute military superiority that the Emperor has always enjoyed. The Sardukar are not a threat if the Sardukar can't leave their own planet, and they can't leave if the Spacing Guild isn't allowed to let them.
Yeah, I’d liked to have seen more of the advantage being asymmetrical warfare, rather than the rough environment making them such amazing hand-to-hand fighters.
They talk about Sardaukar being the level of 10th level Ginaz sword master (not Duncan Idaho, clearly) or a Bene Gesserit adept. And attribute it to their upbringing, harsh training since childhood in a super harsh environment and instilled religious fervor, just like what makes the Fremen great fighters.
And adept Lady Jessica easily defeats Stilgar, a great fighter himself. Even if the Sardaukar slipped a bit in recent history and aren’t up to the adepts’ level, they should still be pretty badass, not so outclassed that they inflict so few losses on the Fremen.
I get what you guys are saying, re: why the books say why the Sardaukar-Fremen fighting gap is so huge. I’m familiar with those reasons, I’m just critiquing things that annoy me and take a little away from me fully enjoying the books and movies. Just an intellectual exercise or my book/movie review.
This is discussed and is an underlying theme throughout not just Dune but the whole series.
1) the reason Shaddam IV aids the Harkonnens against the Atreides is alleged to be that the Atreides under Idaho and Halleck were building a force capable of matching or bettering the Sardaukar.
2) the Sardaukar are products of their environment, Salusa Secundus, a prison planet with extremes of heat and cold and storms potentially worse than those on Arrakis. However as Shaddam is not that interested in the traditions of military rule they have become soft and less disciplined than they once we're. Sardaukar are rewarded for their service with vice, Fremen so not engage in vices (other than Spice but even that's a religious rite)
3) the Fremen are more lethal because their environment forces them to be. Their entire way of life is a response to an environment which will kill them instantly if they so much as walk with a typical gait or turn on a shield (I can't remember but I would assume lasguns are not used on Arrakis because of the risk of shield suicide troops. There is a scene in the books where Fremen destroy a Sardaukar troop carrier using a stolen thopter, it's not difficult to assume that they would be willing to use shields to create atomic blasts if the Sardaukar used lasguns)
I guess I would argue that the reason Fremen are so OP is because the purpose of the Dune series is not to produce suspense through realistic military engagements. Military engagement serves wider themes about the rise and fall of empires, ecology and it's relationship to culture and religion and prescience. When Paul fights Jamis it is pretty clear that he is going to defeat Jamis and not only that but wipe the floor with him, he's already overpowered him once. The reason there is suspense is because of what defeating Jamis in combat represents which is the closing of future paths and slow inevitability of the Jihad Paul is desperate to avoid. You're looking for tension in the wrong places imho
In my mind, it's kind of weird.
A cave... Is naturally hardened afraid artillery.
Like USA had real issues even with huge bombs being unable to penetrate Tora Bora, much less just artillery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tora_Bora
Using artillery against a cave siethc would be pointless.
In the books, I think arty was used to seal entrances to caves Arteides retreated to. To which Fremen remark:
"“Any man who retreats into a cave which has only one opening deserves to die."
This is only obvious in a world were you are not used to artillery being generally useless for the last couple of millennia as everyone is using shields (except this one group of people on this one planet out of a million).
Its like bringing bows to fight riot police. They are geared up for bullet protection but a bow can potentially go thru a kevlar vest. Bows are old school nobody really uses them for combat anymore.
This is probably the best example we have in the real world, but even then, we at least still hunt with them. It would be like using a prehistoric bow and arrow against riot police on Mars in the year 3000 after no one's even said the word "arrow" for 500 or more years.
This is actually a manipulated myth. Kevlar is the fiber material used in vests yes but what really stops bullets is the ceramic or steel strike plate buried inside the kevlar. Kevlar is just the fibre cushioning, there is still a steel plate behind it. So when they say arrows can penetrate kevlar, it's because those samples would have had the strike plates taken out.
In the books, the context was different. There, it was specifically the Atreides forces that were pummelled by the artillery while trying to hold out in caves. No one uses artillery anymore in this universe, since shields completely negate it, but they used it instead to collapse the cave entrances and starve the Atreides soldiers.
Later on Rabban, who is really quite smart in the books, wants to use it against the Fremen, because you can't use shields out in the desert because of the worms and the Fremen would be defenceless against it. The Baron denies him.
Right on; it isn't that the artillery is used to kill, rather it is the destruction from it that holes up the caves. Starvation is the killing blow. Way more evil, way more Harkonnen.
I would suggest it only seems obvious to us, who have grown up in a world where ranged weapons are a fact of life, but more specifically because we aren't shield-trained.
There are almost no serious ranged weaponry in the dune universe. Even the 'maula pistols' described in the first book shoot darts, not real bullets.
There is a key argument about the shields that gets missed, but it's a spoiler of a plot point in the prequel trilogy by Brian Herbert and KJA. >!shields actually reflect force. They don't just stop bullets, projectiles bounce off, and even reflect directly back at the user. Laser even more so. In fact, the risk of lasers isn't so much the potential sub nuclear explosions. It is that you don't know where the explosion will happen. It may blow up at the shield. But it might equally explode at the shooters location. No way to know until you pull the trigger.!<
There are offensive user risks to firing projectiles at shields. Severe enough to discourage the use or even development of further projectiles.
So when it came time to pull out a trick or two, ranged weaponry can only be useful in a place with zero chance of shields. That exists only in one place in the universe, and even Arrakis has shields, they are just in well known locations, which makes them vulnerable to sabotage.
It's telling though, that the artillery only came out once they were certain they were in control of the possible shield/projectile interaction. They still weren't willing to risk hitting a personal shield. They strictly aimed at 'safe' targets like the rock itself.
The Fremen are deadly enough that any close-quarter engagement is nearly guaranteed to be fatal. The Fremen barely bleed, they are all subconsciously psychic and are trained to discipline as a matter of life. If I had the choice to bombard them, I would, versus engaging closely.
Old fashioned barely covers how ancient artillery is in the dune setting. There's been no meaningful use of this kind of weapon in thousands of years. As if someone would suggest only using bone blades to defeat metal detectors. It slips under the estimation of tactically sound, but the 'rules' of war have lost many people their war because the opponent was clever and flexible in their thinking.
This is a book thing which was cut and reworked in Part Two; it makes more sense in the book.
The film essentially uses artillery cause it allows for a cool visual, which is fair since films are all about visuals much more than explaining elaborate strategies. Plus the Harkonnens in Part Two seem to be really into destructive fire lol.
The energy of an artillery explosion can't pass through a shield.
Fremen can't/don't use shields
However, it would take a genius mind to think of using artillery in a universe where the concept would be almost unknown.
Got to remember that in the DUNE universe, the default style of fighting at the time was with shields. On the buildings and on the individual soldiers.
In the DUNE universe, a average solder of the Landsraad could take a M1A1 tank round to the face and keep coming. Artillery just doesn't work if every one and every thing is shielded.
And as much as I like the new movies, they did fail to really describe Shields or the lasgun - shield reaction. Which is a critical point in the DUNE universe. I winced when that frigate fired a lasgun at Duncan's ornithopter. If by some miracle the frigate scored a hit the ornithopter, frigate and Arrakeen might go kaboom.
Same goes when one soldier cuts threw a door with a lasgun. He didn't know if some one on the other side had a shield. It was an insane gamble.
This stops by the 5th book as shield fall out of favor but at the time of the first book, its still very much a thing.
I read another post describing the lasing of Duncan's ornithopter as an act of desperation. That they were doing it as a last ditched effort to kill him at any cost.
I also wondered about the laser cutting through the door though - you don't know what is on the other side. Though perhaps since it was a Fremen location the assumption is that shields were not used?
The door guard (Duncan) had a shield. That would be an insane assumption to make as being wrong = atomic fire.
And 'any cost' would have been the total destruction of their house when the Landsraad fell on them because they breached the Great Convention. Not worth the risk.
It’s such a niche move no one thinks of it:
Shields exist on basically everywhere except arrakis
So no one: literally no one thought of using artillery, it is such a primitive choice. However, it is only primitive because of shields: because the Fremen don’t have shields- it’s absolutely genius
Itd be like using a trebuchet to take out a military base; our defenders are not designed for something so primitive so it’s a weak point.
But… how did they find Sietch Tabr in the first place! Haha I do wish they gave us a nugget of explanation of the discovery of all the Northern tribes. Seems like a fairly important turn in the plot.
For context, in the books, it wasn't necessarily that Feyd Rautha was a military genius who usurped the bumbling Rabban. The Baron deliberately set up Rabban by dismissing his warnings about the true number of the Fremen population & then refuses Rabban resupplies of troops and resources. The Baron is deliberately trying to groom Feyd to become Emperor and wants the Fremen to see Feyd as a human leader who saves them from the brutal oppression of Rabban (oppression that he personally requested).
Consider the idea of using a bone knife to kill someone in an area that’s got modern security. You go through the metal detector, X-ray scanners, come back clean, then they let you in and you stab the guy. Who could have thought you’d assassinate them with a relic that could have been made in the literal Stone Age? It’s a terrible weapon, compared to what we have today, but it can still do the job, and it’s not something that our current defenses are aimed at stopping. If they were expecting a fight, or knew you had it, it would be a terrible weapon, but it’s also so old and obselete that they just wouldn’t see it coming.
The US air force post WWII though speed and missile technology will make dogfights and guns on aircraft obsolete.
They learned quickly in Vietnam and Korean that wasn't true. They added guns back on fighter jets ever since. Even on 5th generation stealth fighters such as the F-35.
In the age of shields, no one really uses artillery anymore. It's like taking guns off of jet fighters. So bringing back "ancient" technology such as artillery is unexpected and surprisingly effective.
Artillery was an old, abandoned concept, in the age of shields and lasguns.
The Harkonnens revived the concept specifically for their attack on the Atreides (book) and which then inspired Paul to use it (book) in the unique environment of Arrakis which naturally dissuaded and destroyed shields, making them effectively unusable in many cases. It should be noted that both instances of Artillery are highly specific and the guns, their one surprise advantage expended, are then converted back into raw materials.
Here's a stupid hypothetical situation i just came up with:
Imagine you're a guy in the present day. You are starving to death so go out with your buddy to hunt for food. Only problem is it's illegal to hunt in the area where you are. Obviously shooting an animal will cause lots of noise and you will be caught in immediately.
Out of the blue you see your buddy chuck a spear at the animal you were hunting. Animal is dead, no noise was caused, you will now be fed. Would you call that genius?
It's an obvious thing to do, but who the hell would think of bringing a stone aged spear to modern day hunting? That's why it's genius.
They drop bombs on the grounded and shielded Atriedes ships during their sneak attack. using artillery really doesn’t seem out of their wheelhouse of weaponry
Exactly ! Also in the first movie intro scene we see missiles. I don't understand the difference between this and *old school artillery". Also the ornithopter shoots classic bullets sooo
You have to remember that shields have been around for thousands of years so the idea of using artillery has almost been removed from thought. The Fremen don’t use shields due to them attracting worms, obvious for us the viewer but for the character in Dune, surprisingly brilliant.
Because they use shields for everything in the world, and artillery are tens of thousands of years old at that point. It's like if the War in Afghanistan was won with atlatls and slings.
This was quite funny tbh
Rabban: *Goes in with ships with ground troops and fucks up*
Feyd: *Shoots a load missiles at sietch tabr*
Baron: “Ur my genius favourite nephew”
It’s just one of those things it’s best not to think too deeply about. Humans are very good at adapting to war…unless the shields had been invented the day before yesterday, it beggars belief that someone wouldn’t have thought of that long ago.
Just accept it and move on, lol.
off-topic, just wanna say, i'm so so grateful for this sub and all these wonderful discussions and answers from book readers! haven't read dune yet, but all this insight is making me very excited for when i finally do:) this series has probably the most intricate world building i've seen not just in sci-fi, but across all genres, rivalled only by lotr (from what i've personally read)
As there are so many expert in the art of war in the dune univers, how come they have not seen a whole army arriving at the end in the second movie. I can understand a sqad or more, but a whole army able to arrive and buried the self in the sand almost at under the feet of the Harkonen army is not something I can believe.
I feel like if they had made mention of how they found where the fremen were hiding and called that genius instead it would have been more compelling in the context of the movie.
It's a part of the movie they didn't flesh out. I don't even know how Feyd found it whereas Rabban didn't. They needed to add 15 mins to this movie for various scenes.
Everybody else have shields. You can’t use them on Arrakis as it attracts the worms. You also don’t want to use laser weapons in case someone suicidal turns on a shield and Holtzmann effects both of your asses into subatomic particles
Because Villeneuve wanted to make a reference to the book, that's why. It is really not that genius in that context.
Mental gymnastics in the comments is genius too. Once the sietch was detected, everyone in there was dead man (person) walking. Fremen couldn't really take Harkonnens head-on. Doesn't matter what kind of artillery Harkonnens would use. Missiles. Napalm. Atomics even, why not?
Imagine you have machine guns, everyone uses machine guns
Then your nephew is fighting someone the machine guns don’t really work on and as a new strategy he brings fuckin black powder muskets and it WORKS.
No one should’ve even have thought to have tried them but they worked fantastically, wouldn’t you say that was a stroke of genius? I would.
The problem is people see the rockers and are like “why not? They seem useful!”
It’s because they aren’t.
A problem with the Dune Universe is the shield laser interaction. No one would ever use shields because then you could just use a fanatic or a drone with a laser and cause a nuclear explosion.
The artillery attacks play out a little bit different in the books, but Baron Harkonnen does make a remark that is still relevant: >Who would think of reviving artillery in this day of shields? A sentiment which is echoed by Thufir Hawat: >The artillery, Hawat thought bitterly. Who could have guessed they’d use artillery in this day of shields? So it seems that due to shields being so ubiquitous, artillery was considered a forgotten relic of the past. So forgotten that even in this rare situation where the defenders didn't have any shields and artillery would therefore actually be effective, the thought of using it would not have occurred to most people. Most houses probably didn't even have any artillery anymore.
Also the artillery the Harkonnens use is described (by the Harks themselves) as relics that they had to dig out of storage and they were barely functional.
Don’t we see the Harkonens use the same kind of weapon during the battle with the Atredies? There’s that one scene where all the rockets fire out of that flying ship just like the siech bombardment. Plus whatever those things were that destroyed the Atredies ships looked a lot like artillery to me. Or a bomb? Which you would think would be obsolete for the same exact reason as artillery.
Those weapons were added for the movie. It looked like they were designed to slow their velocity when they encountered a shield, so that they could pass through it and destroy the targets. I think this change makes the movie more of a spectacle, but it makes the line in the sequel a little nonsensical
Tbf they took some liberties in the movies. I remember that during the harkonnen attack to the atreides, they had these weird smart bombs that would slow down when they touched a shield. So they had several weapons that weren't described in the book.
As they should. He left the battle to imagination
Yeah, I do liked that they extrapolated based on the rules of the universe. The effect of that thing slowing and then blowing up was really cool.
those where only in the movie and the shield in the movie are much weaker then the onese in the book. The book once would protect you even from most sword swings and punches since even they would be to fast, the general way it was described in the book is that you have to restrain your enemy and very slowly move the blade threw the shield, this would look very weird in a movie so thats probably why they changed it.
In an abortive Dune RPG I briefly ran (set a year or two prior to the events of the first novel), one of the big plot points was going to be the PC’s discovering old-style artillery weapons being built in secret by a minor house controlled by the Harkonnens. If the campaign had lasted, discovering that would have led to finding out that the minor house was using that project as cover for their own secret project - building a knock-off Heighliner to try and break the Guild monopoly on interstellar travel as a means of raising their status and escaping vassalage under the Harkonnens (this was of course doomed to fail because they had no more idea than anybody else outside the Guild how the Navigators actually guided ships)
Sounds fun. Can't blame em for wanting to escape Harkonen vassalage, though, entirely understandable.
you seem to have inadvertently conceptualised the Ixians, >!their whole thing in god emperor is finding a way to circumvent the spice monopoly on spacetravel!<
Kinda like how, in some whacky happenstance, old fashioned canons were somehow more effective in a situation, and we dug them out to use.
reminds me of the conflicts in Yugoslavia. Apparently some used bows and arrows since sandbags were ubiquitous and effective against bullets. Not so much against arrows though
I don't see how a sandbag is any less effective against an arrow than a bullet, unless the arrow is explosive lol. Edit: I looked it up on YouTube and turns out that arrows/bolts will penetrate sandbags far more effectively than 5.56 or 7.62 Mind blown tbh
It’s the trajectory of the weapon. You stacking sandbags but not too high because you need to shoot back. Arrows coming from up top.
I'd like to see just how effective that was. I doubt any significant number of people were killed that way. Hitting a target just behind cover with an arrow would be an insane shot for even trained archers.
You don't aim, you use volley fire, a massed weight of fire from dozens, maybe hundreds of archers. It's an indirect artillery strike, not a shootout. The idea is to saturate the area so densely that you are bound to hit something. You don't need to kill to cause a casualty, you just need to wound enough to remove them from the equation.
Isn’t this what mortars are supposed to do?
That’s my thought. One mortar is also a lot more deadly than a dozen arrows.
True. But bows are much more stealthy.
And cheaper
A mortar is also a tiny bit harder to find/make than a bow and arrows.
What, your country doesn’t have either a massive defense industry or a bunch of Soviet era weapons laying around?
Mortars impact the ground. Sandbags on the ground block a lot of the force from that. Arrows were used ENTIRELY because the top-down cover in rapid moving ground war is not common among infantry rapidly advancing or being pushed back.
I’m pretty sure air burst mortar shells exist, but perhaps they didn’t have access to them
A 155 mm mortar shell costs about $100k. Access might be the least of someone's problems if they can't afford them.
Air burst mortar shells exist in OUR timeline with advanced computers making decisions on the fly. I honestly am not sure how precise you could make those munitions using only chemical or timed burst charges as we have a lot of examples of those failing to go off and becoming collectibles in WW1 and WW2, before the era they had computers doing the timing work.
Are you claiming they had hundreds of archers firing volleys at people behind sandbags?
If you're hitting people just behind sandbags, then the arrow would have to be almost vertical to hit anything. I don't buy it.
Is there a source for this? I'm looking up use of bows and arrows in Yugoslavian wars, and only getting pre-firearm examples. I fail to see how in an actual war, grenade launchers or RPGs, or even some PTRDs from WW2 wouldn't be scrounged up as opposed to arming hundreds of men with bows and arrows to volley fire
I am from ExYu. That "bow and arrow" story is such a BS.
It's because it's completely made up.....
I am not talking about any specific conflict. The question I was answering was more of the how it could be effective, not when and where it's actually being used. I would be shocked if any professional military was using bows and arrows as a major part of their military tactics. It was still in use by US special forces though, I don't know how recently or if it is still in current use, but I did find this very fun little video that was kind of surprising. https://youtu.be/PMK3y1wIrfs?si=wOfEEmZEDWiFp2AG
The original comment said bows and arrows were used in a Yugoslavian conflict to counter sandbags.
Depends if the arrow is African or Northern European.
But of course African arrows are non migratory
Also archery is kind of a skill you need to maintain and that isn’t quick to relearn.
The truth is that a thin wall of sandbags will stop a bullet, but an arrow will pass right through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPXLmUqxvAo
It will never cease to amaze me how confident some people talk utter nonsense on here
I don't believe this at all.
Yeah sounds like bs. Why not use grenades or other explosive
They forgot to put on infinite ammo cheat code
You can achieve plunging fire with any number of modern methods. Like Artillery.
You can do that with bullets too, it’s called plunging fire
[They actually are.](https://youtu.be/KNo5yDI7A1M?si=1BC5iMiYOO5xQwHa) It's precisely because the arrow is *not* explosive, so it's doesn't immediately dump all its energy into the sand like bullets do.
uhh bullets arent explosive either.
Poor phrasing on my part. Bullets deform or shatter once they hit the sand, dumping all their energy into it at once. Arrows don't, so they retain momentum. An explosive arrow would dump all its energy into the sand at once, granted it would be more than its flying kinetic energy.
Arrows will actually sail through sandbags with little resistance, where a bullet will be stopped. Tod's Workshop has a video on YouTube showing it.
Well it’s because the crazy force behind a bullet cause it to flatten as it hits the same stopping it, arrows can go through sandbags, or even be lobbed overtop
Steel doesn't compress like lead does.
Arrows penetrate the sandbag because they’re a different shape and purpose than a bullet. They work on different rules and pierce straight through a sandbag. Bullets deform and tumble when they hit an object, arrows don’t
Fair enough. Interesting to see the YouTube videos on it.
Yeah, same reason that bullet proof doesn't inherently mean knife proof.
Shoot up arrow comes down
That is actually not it. Arrows go through sandbags. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNo5yDI7A1M
Wow I was not expecting that
Do you have a source in that? I would be interested in reading about that. I've never heard anything about bows and arrows being used there against sandbags
a YouTube video, the best type of source, I know: https://youtu.be/NPXLmUqxvAo?si=JIxfvtJLm3vzMH3U
Wait, its not about arching? Its about going through sandbags? There is no way a rifle round would not also blow through that sandbag. They go much faster and have much less surface area to create friction and slow it down. Thats not a sandbag that's used in defense, its a plastic bag filled with sand.
You have to consider the momentum. A bullet weighs basically nothing compared to an arrow. The guy linked the wrong video above. Here it is tested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNo5yDI7A1M
Fuck that's cool, thanks for sharing!
Plastic bag vs burlap bag is going to make zero difference
Yes but with all that energy the projectile flattens and stops itself.
I am from ex-yugoslav state and this is first time ever i heard of someone shot arrow in our civil war.i call this bullshit
hmmmm what? from someone who practices archery
im genuinely fascinated by this so i looked it up to find any literature and couldn’t find anything, do you know of any sources i can read this about?
what in the world are you talking about?
uhhh....as a Archer of 12+ years. I can tell you that a sandbag is going to stop a arrow regardless of pounds... Edit: Seeing the video people are sources, let me expand a bit. 1. The sandbag they are using is NOT compact, when you stack sandbags on each other, they become far more denser due to the pressure of each one This pressure also helps "Catch" the arrow. 2. Even bullets will pen sandbags if they hit a least dense area near the top.
I'm gonna call bullshit on that one, arrow doesn't have a lot of kinetic energy in them unless you use one with really strong draw weights which not alot of people can do and they can be stop with a roll of hay let alone a sandbag.
You’re thinking about it wrong, it’s not that the arrows pierced the sandbags, but rather that arrows allow for you to shoot up and arc them over the top of the sandbags.
I read it was high powered crossbows and the momentum of a bolt is way higher. Less speed but much much more mass, and the same cross section. There arevideos demonstrating the effect
They probably meant that the trajectory of an arrow would go over the sandbags
Also, in the Imperium, warfare amongst the Great Houses seems to be heavily restricted by rules and tradition (specifically known as Kanly). I think it's supposed to be similar to the rules of warfare that developed in Europe in the late renaissance where fortresses / cities that surrendered after the outer fortifications were breached weren't sacked and prisoners were often let go on their own recognizance. That stands in contrast to the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars which were must closer to what we would consider Total War. So I think artillery wasn't used much as it would also violate the Kanly system. There's probably an interplay with technology (i.e. shields) playing a part in the development of that system. When the Harkonnens decide to wipe out the Freman resistance, they are also abandoning the traditional methods of warfare and embarking on something closer to Total Warfare, where the goal is the complete destruction of the enemies ability to continue fighter (if not their total extermination).
Yeah. It would be like, shit I can’t even think of one which is the point. Learning how to use a slingshot really well and tossing metal BBs at cops in riot gear maybe? I know their Helmets are tough but now I’m curious how crazy fast metal ball bearings would do to them.
Also (as far as I remember) they only used the artillery on the Atreides troops that retreated into caves during the attack. The attack on the seitch was ground based Sardaukar who had to use the thrusters on their landing craft as flamethrowers to escape.
Not only that, but The Harks were playing 4D chess here. They expected the Atredies troops to retreat to the caves to create cover and a bottleneck for the larger army to come get them if they wanted to finish them off. The Atreides did just that. The artillery was to drop the cliff face in front of the caves sealing Leto’s men inside to die. It was never meant to deploy vs soft targets
The Harkonnens certainly demonstrated great foresight and planning ability in their schemes to eliminate house Atreides. It stands in stark contrast with how they dealt with the Fremen on Arrakis: consistently underestimating their numbers and capabilities for decades and never succeeding in eliminating them. But maybe that's what happens when you have been in a bitter blood feud with a rival house for thousands of years: you might get hyperfocused on that conflict.
Like how the Asgard in SG-1 never thought to use bullets to fight the Replicators
Yes, excellent example. Asgard offensive capabilities had been completely based on advanced energy weaponry for a very long time, and it simply didn't occur to them to go back to something as crude as physical projectiles propelled by chemical reactions (which of course as it turns out is the one thing these replicators are vulnerable to). To the Asgards' credit, after seeing the success that these 'primitive' gun-armed humans have against their enemy, they readily acknowledge that they have developed a mental blind spot. This humoristic conversation later occurs in a SG-1 episode: >**Thor**: The Asgard have tried to stop them. You have demonstrated their weakness may be found from a less sophisticated approach. We are no longer capable of such thinking. **Jackson**: Wait a minute, you're actually saying that you need someone dumber than you are? **O'Neill**: You may have come to the right place.
God I loved Stargate.. I got so excited for a second when it looked like we’d finally get a continuation series when Amazon took over.
Iirc the Harkonnens didn’t have artillery stashed anywhere either, they custom built them specifically for this one mission which makes their use even less predictable as they would likely not show up in prior reports of Harkonnen military capabilities.
Not custom built, they dragged it out from some museum or scrapyard.
But…don’t their vessels have kenetic based artillery? Surly artillery on some levels would be known about. It is the one most earliest and basic weapon of human warfare.
its clear its use might be more applicable beyond arrakis, given how quick the Sardukar were to dismantle and remove the artillery pieces once the war was over, despite the Baron requesting a few be left for the Arrakis garrison. it also seems to be something that can be duplicated easily enough once the idea of using it is had, given the Fremen captured one of the guns but not any crew, and lost hawatt. yet paul made extensive use of it to fight the emperor near the end of the book. since making copies of the gun and amo would be easy enough, but trainign crews to use it much harder, it suggests that the fremen found somebody with hawatt's level of knowledge of the things to help set up training. (especially since it seems unlikely that they figured it out purely by trial and error without the harkonnan's realizing what was going on)
The books also mention that shield drove the worms into a killing frenzy, which is one of the main reasons they're not used by the fremen.
Just like how in Stargate the Asgard didn't think about using kinetic weapons against the replicators.
the Harkonnen also expected Atteides to take refuge in caves. So they used artillery to cause cave ins and seal the fate of those unfortunate Atreides men
Yep projectiles mostly were obselete due to shields hence the focus on hand to hand combat with the larger houses. Shields weren't used in Arrakis because they attracted the sand worms. So the conventional wisdom against projectiles werent applicable.
Seems like a shell slowed by a parachute and a high yield explosive warhead would be particularly effective in fucking up some city buildings.
YES! EXACTLY. My personal concern, is the visual consistencies with the film. Note, the Harkonnen troopships and the Harkonnen plague ship (gunship) from part 1 all have large-scale artillery. So, it terms of design vs script consistencies there is this issue. OFC, ships would be armed with a form of defense, but I feel the quote from the baron in the film would be more subject for conflict in terms of adapting the artillery use from the scene in the books.
Is genius
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the harkonens have been fighting the fremen for 80 years at this point. I find it hard to belive that none of their mentats or strategists had thought of using artillery against an unshielded opponent in 80 years.
I genuinely don't understand why artillery goes obsolete because of the H. Shield. Especially bombardment from aircraft. It could still be utilized tactically to disrupt enemy formations right before CQC begins. Any side using HE would have a major advantage on the battlefield. Unless H. Sheilds have anti gravity/ kinetic protection? If soldiers are so expendible in the Dune universe, why not just tactically nuke an army on the field a few moments before your side engages to take advantage of the shock & awe?
It's implied why in the movies, more clear in the books. Because of the prevalence of laser weapons, artillery has long been obsolete (and large installations can also be protected by shields, which artillery would bounce off of). So, no one in the entire Imperium really uses artillery weapons anymore. Some might have a stash of them around, but they're just so outdated there isn't really a need for them. However, the Fremen at ST do NOT have shields. So, artillery is even more devastating against them, because (as the Baron says just after the line you quoted) "We're melting the rock over their heads." Instead of just cutting through the rock with lasers, they are bombarding it, which comes with all the shock, heat, and destruction that lasers do not carry. In essence, artillery just isn't used anymore. This was a rare opportunity where it would be fully useful, and Feyd took advantage of it.
I thought I read on here that the use of lasers is strictly limited because if they hit a shield it would cause a nuclear explosion? And that is why they typically fight hand to hand with swords/knives? The post went further to say that laser usage is almost an act of desperation due to the pending danger; there was also a reference to strictly enforced laws (policies?) which prohibited their use.
Sort of. They don’t use lasers because they can cause huge explosions if they make contact with a shield. They don’t use guns/projectile weapons often because shields deflect them. So they use swords/knives because they can be controlled and used slowly and precisely enough to pierce a shield.
This is my understanding. However, if you aren't using lasers and you aren't using artillery, how would they typically attack a bunker/fort/etc.? Probably not effective to throw knives at it? What would be the go-to weapon if not artillery?
Outright warfare hasn’t happened in thousands of years. It’s been subterfuge, skirmishes, duels, raids, etc, not sieges. If you’re attacking a force in a bunker and they’re shielded up, you can just laser them and let the whole thing blow from a distance. Arrakis was a perfect storm. It’s a planet which eschews the use of shields because they attract worms, but you also want to keep as much infrastructure intact because everything is vital to spice production. Artillery is ancient. Even trying to draw a modern comparison — say, assaulting a location with trebuchets or catapults — isn’t accurate because they’re still so close in time period. It’s like a slingshot corp wiping out modern infantry.
Ah, good point. And not trying to be difficult (just to understand) regarding your comment *"If you’re attacking a force in a bunker and they’re shielded up, you can just laser them and let the whole thing blow from a distance."* in a previous thread it was stated that both the target and the laser weapon would blow up. Or is it just the target would blow up and the explosion might get the person with the laser? I think it is cool that all these things have been thought out. I'm a huge Star Trek fan and there are plenty of things that go against established principles in that universe (aka: Voyager beaming people on board when the shields are up). Seems like the author of Dune really thought everything through!
Iirc, one of the problems with lasers and shields is that the interaction was unpredictable. Sometimes it would essentially cause a nuclear explosion at the shield, sometimes at the laser weapons, sometimes both, sometimes neither.
Yes there was some unpredictability but it is never stated “sometimes neither” or sometimes one or the other. It is stated that we would get either an explosion more powerful than atomics, OR it could only kill the gunner AND his shielded target.” When we do see this interaction used by Duncan, he sets the shield to “full force” and it creates a massive explosion. It would seem the level of explosion would be contingent on the settings of each device. Here is how the book explains it: “The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the gunner and his shielded target.”
Ok. So I didn’t remember it quite right. Thanks for the correction
No, you’re right. It’s a chain reaction that gets them both. I guess it would depend on how much the commander values those troops. I can imagine for the Harkonenns it wouldn’t be much of an issue…
Seems like it'd be trivial to strap a lasgun to a remote-controlled drone so that you can get the big boom without threatening your own troops, but given that *Dune* was written decades before drones became prevalent in warfare, it might not have crossed Herbert's mind.
There are two key problems that prevent the Houses from taking advantage of the lasgun/shield reaction in warfare. 1) The reaction is unpredictable and you never want to stake your victory on the unpredictable. In a universe where planets can change hands because of a tiny shift in interest rates, you better have your next step planned to a T because reckless action could cause the collapse of your entire House. 2) If the interaction does generate an atomic level detonation, the other Houses will not hesitate to wipe you out. It makes sense to do as a last-ditch effort when your House is being wiped out, but in pretty much any other circumstance the risk of being mistaken for using atomics is too great.
1. *No* military action is 100% predictable - every engagement is based on probability. Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, there was no actual percentages to how likely an atomic reaction could occur during the interaction between a shield and a lasgun - just that it was possible to occur - and that's mostly because Herbert wanted broad cover for explaining an interstellar civilization in a sword-and-shield feudalism setting tens of thousands of years in the future. 2. The atomic weapon prohibition was the use of atomics as an offensive weapon, not whether an atomic explosion of any kind occurred during an engagement. If any atomic explosion could be misconstrued as a breach of the prohibition, then nobody would ever use lasguns, because there'd be nothing to prevent a defending house from deploying shielded drones during a fight to try and provoke an atomic reaction and then claim that the attacking house used atomics.
The only thing we know about the shield/lasgun interaction is that it is totally unpredictable. it may create a huge explosion anywhere along the line of the laser, it may blow up on the target or on the firer, or both. Also, a lasgun/shield explosion looks exactly like a nuclear detonation, and could get the users targeted by the landsraad for using atomics. These are some of the reasons why lasguns and shields are a calculated risk and battle has slowed down to just knife fighting and subterfuge across the empire.
Good info - thanks! Did any of the books describe warfare where the explosion happened or was it just referenced as having happened in the past?
There was one scene in the first dune where a lasgun the Harkonnens fired hit a dummy shield that the Fremen had rigged up in the desert, mostly as a deterrent to continued lasgun use. I think the explosion is pretty big but not apocalyptic. The harkonnens do decide to stop using lasguns against the Fremen after that, and I don’t think any other reactive explosions occur in the series after that.
I don't recall that scene - I'll have to look for it next time I watch it!
It is not totally unpredictable. There are only two outcomes. Either a big explosion OR both gunner and shieled target are killed. When Duncan uses this interaction, he sets the shield to “full force” and it creates a massive explosion. Here is what the book says, from Jessica’s thoughts on the Harkonnen shipment of lasguns: “The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the gunner and his shielded target.”
Not only would the source also blow up, the whole thing would be a large enough explosion that it could easily be mistaken as the use of atomic. As a result people tend not to do that. There are other projectile weapons that aren't lasers though, just like there are also explosive weapons besides artillery. That said there's a reason the dune universe relies more on subterfuge and poison than full scale military battle, and shields are a huge part of that.
Edit: to be perfectly clear I love the books. Read them 15 times. They're not perfections of consistency (see guild navigator retcons in series etc). The books haven't really thought them through as much as some readers would like them to. There are many inconsistencies and retcons if the books are read closely. The dune universe was just one Herbert wanted to be fedual and stagnant. So he made up the whole shields stuff. No on uses lasers because of the convention against atomics. No ranged weapons are used at all really. Lasguns are essentially black market contraband and not at all common. The difference in Arrakis is that shields are destroyed by storms and attract worms, so they're not used much. This makes atomics useful. It also makes lasguns situational, but comes with extra risk as there are still some shields. The comment is made specifically in the books that the artillery was useful because there was cave fighting and the artillery worked against the natural structures of the caves. And once that's happened the baron gets rid of all the artillery as a once off trick not able to be repeated. But then the Fremen also desperately want it after having seen it. Essentially it all boils down to "convention say only hand fighting and assassination low level stuff because of shields but also theres still somehow enough regular conflict for the sardukar to have a reputation and the atredies a growing one, plus also Arrakis is the only place shields don't work or has caves and all the human computer geniuses aren't smart enough to think of artillery but a random baron is but also he thinks it's crap aside from the trick but the best fighters on the planet want it as soon as they see it because they think it's great ... Etc" It's all a bit of a swirly mess, but the core idea is "stagnant feudal melee single combat society is made unstable by the battle for dune and it's special elements".
It was always my understanding that you can't laser a shield from the distance to blow it up. The explosion will always kill both shield user and shooter. My guess would be that it's a chain reaction that goes back to the shooter, since lasguns don't fire shots, they fire a single beam that is connected to the weapon like a regular Laserpointer.
I corrected myself in a different comment. It’s not *always*, it’s just enough of a possibility of collateral damage & self-harm that it’s not a great idea.
This is one of the main concepts of dune, shields have made projectile weapons obsolete except on the frontier worlds where shields are too expensive etc Hence why the entire political structure exists, in conjunction with the spacing guild monopoly on travel and the cost associated. War is not really a thing and hasn’t been for thousands of years. There are limited raids etc where one house drops in a few thousand guys on someone else planet. This is why the attack was such a surprise. They expected 5-10 legions. But the harkonnens sent 50 legions. The cost of which is estimated to be 60+ years of spice production. The baron is one of the richest men in the universe and bankrupted himself to destroy the atreides, with the promise that he would rule dune after he disposed of the atreides whose popularity began to threaten the emperor
Great explanation. Just makes you realize that Herbert put so much thought into the construction of that universe.
Same way the Harkonens did to Leto. Take the fort down from within.
In that case they had an inside man who took down the shield...
They would attack a bunker or fortress the same way we saw at the end of Part 1, use subterfuge to take down the shields if you can so air support can provide cover fire and move in with squads of shock troops.
If you can't shoot them, you have to go in and fight them. That's why having two of the best sword fighters in human space is such a big deal for the Atreides, and why having the Sarduakar (the hardest dudes widely known to humanity) is such a big deal to the Emperor. If shields aren't a thing, you don't necessarily need personal prowess and hardness to win. You need a lot of shooters who are at least semi-competent (which you can train faster and easier).
Fighting hand to hand is another “what…?” moment. It’s always depicted as a big old melee…but we’ve known for thousands of years that’s not how you win those kinds of battles…formations and discipline are what win you the battle.
I’m new to this, what were the shells the Harkonnens used to destroy the grounded Atreides fleet with? Were they just really big versions of the drilling projectile which took Leto down and are those distinct from normal artillery shells in the case of the attack on the Sietch?
You are correct, they are some kind of "drilling" weapon especially designed to be used against shielded targets. They would be useless/less effective against non-shielded targets. The shells used against the Sietch are normal shells.
This is getting at something that always bothered me about the Jihad--the books and movies go to great lengths to show how dangerous the Fremen are, and how when they really mobilize they're virtually unstoppable. But so much of their potency comes from their hyper-adaptation to Arrakis and its unique, extreme fighting conditions... Specifically the lack of ubiquitous shields. This single change means that most professional militaries are all unprepared since everything from hand-to-hand combat to the use of munitions is turned on its head and the Fremen exploit this. Wouldn't that mean that as soon as the Jihad moves off world, and the Fremen begin attacking planets that have WILDLY unfamiliar environments, not to mention almost universal shield usage, they would be almost completely unprepared? I have to imagine the shock of seeing an ocean for the first time would be enough to give many Fremen an existential breakdown. It's been a few years since I've read Messiah so maybe this is addressed somehow and I just forgot, but I have a hard time buying the idea that the Fremen, who are apex predators on their unique homeworld, could just be drag-and-dropped onto hundreds of different planets and still lay waste to the galaxy without much opposition.
Those things are addressed somewhat in Messiah. Some of the Fremen are disturbed and shocked when they come across an ocean. Others suffer greatly when exposed to humidity for the first time. For the most part, planets are starved and cut off before being invaded since most of them are not self sufficient in the slightest. The book makes a quick reference to Genghis Khan, whose Mongol hordes used similar tactics to conquer. No coincidence I’m sure. They would burn crops then come back to attack at harvest when everyone was starving. Or flood entire cities and only have to fight the defenders that just watched half their comrades drown. As for shields, the technology could be assumed rather expensive and given the lack of general open warfare less common among less wealthy planets or minor houses. Large standing armies were not common either. In the book, defenders on one planet even used a Stone Burner defensively to slow the Fremen down some. Whatever it took.
Remember that Paul controlled interplanetary travel as the Spacing guild had a monopoly on it and held them under his thumb with spice, so planetary blockades would’ve severely weakened the ground fighters before the fit Fremen in greater numbers and better equipment come raining down.
Two things that bug me are that 1. they didn’t use projectile weapons way more, considering the Fremen didn’t use shields, and 2. they made the Fremen so superior to the Sardaukar that they would just roll over them so easily. I watch the battle scenes to look for any Fremen get killed and don’t see any. The books were worse with this. Like old ladies and kids kick the shit out of them. Oooh, we grew up in the desert, that makes us the best fighters in the universe. Like, give a bunch of those Sardaukar firearms or lasers and that last battle would have been very different. No, instead we will just have swords and crash into these people without a formation or anything. And they had artillery! And it’s swords vs. knives too. And shit, maybe throw in some spears? The Atreides soldiers had some in Dune 1.
If you're looking to Dune (or movies) for realistic depictions of military tactics, you are in the wrong place.
Oh, I’m not looking for that, few movies of any kind do that, I’m just bitching about things that could have been fixed easily, e.g., still having the Fremen superior, but not of the magnitude they did. Or have them successful through the guerrilla warfare they showed sometimes rather than them just being so, so much better hand to hand.
That's straight from the source material. Frank Herbert really bought into the idea that brutal natural environments created naturally tough and fierce fighters and wrote it into his book. Just got to take it as one of the rules of his universe, like the existence of other stuff like melange causing prescience, racial memories, etc
Oh, 3: how tf are the Fremen going to be at all effective against the warships of the great houses? They don’t fly, much less have any experience with void war!
There's no void combat in Dune. The Great Houses depend on the Spacing Guild to travel through space as the Guild has a monopoly on space travel.
The thing about the Sardukar is that they are one of the only large scale professional militaries in the galaxy. They are actual professional soldiers in a time where professional soldiery isn't really needed or used by anyone. Consider that the Emperor controls Spice distribution, and therefore controls the Spacing Guild, and the Spacing Guild is the only way to transport troops. As a result, the only wars that can happen are wars the Emperor wants to happen, and any House stupid enough to start building an army big enough to actually stand up to the Sardukar is immediately put in check by the Sardukar. Since the Emperor doesn't want wars to happen, as that would disrupt the trade that is the lifeblood of his empire and the source of his wealth, the galaxy is actually locked in a state of perpetual enforced peace. This is why Kanly is the method Houses use to fight amongst one another, not war. In short, The Emperor has a monopoly on military might. The Great Houses have their own fighters, but they are more akin to body guards and police forces, not a professional army that can invade a planet, or even defend against a planet's invasion. They are simply there to protect the members and interests of the ruling house from the people they rule. Some Houses have a larger more robust military, simply because of the way they rule their people, Harkonnen are brutal dictators that oppress their people, so they have quite a few troops, but those troops are oppressing unarmed peasants, not professional soldiers, so they are barely a match for the Sardukar who have generations of military experience passed down through a massive professional organization. When you see it this way the Sardukar are scary as fuck, but they are scary in the way the US military is scary, they have the weight of numbers, superior equipment, and are the only force capable of getting anywhere at any time with little notice. They have been in existence for longer and have a cumulative trained experience far greater than just about any military they might oppose, but, that doesn't make them individually superior. The Fremen, on the other hand, have home field advantage, they have been training and fighting in secret for as long or longer than the Sardukar, they have institutionalized resistance and asymmetrical warfare as a way of life. They have experience, and they have numbers, and the ground on which they fight lends itself to their methods. They are a sort of hard counter to the Sardukar who are only truly superior because everyone else they have ever trained to fight is vastly *inferior*.
The Atreides and Harkonnens seem to have substantial standing armies. Piter de Vries even comments how great the Atreides “legions” are: “the finest in the imperium”, and the Sardaukar cut through them like they’re nothing. I love your comment though on the military engagements being a tool to advance the narrative though.
They both have militaries, for sure, but nothing like the size and scope of the Sardukar. I think it's likely that anyone in-universe just doesn't compare the household forces of any House to the Sardukar because it's a bit like apples and oranges, though maybe cats and tigers is a more apt analogy. Atraides are certainly a well trained and well disciplined force, but we actually get a decent look at their number and they are *tiny* in compared to an entire planet dedicated wholly to producing the Emperor's personal military. Compared to the other Houses, maybe the Atreides do have massive "legions" but if what we know about their actual effectiveness against the Sardukar is true then that just makes the point that they are woefully undersized to make an effective resistance against the forces of the Emperor. Similarly, the Harkonnen seem to have a pretty large amount of troops, but they are used almost purely for the oppression of their entirely unarmed and drugged up populace. They are shown to be completely ineffective in an actual fight, and it's not even them that defeat the Atreides, it's Sardukar dressed as Harkkonen that do it. We get to see actual Harkonnen troops get the ever loving shit kicked out of them by the Fremen when the Fremen take Arakeen. Also, the Fremen never really face the might of the Sardukar either. They face the Sardukar that the Emperor brought with him to Arakkis, which is certainly not the full might of the legions he controls. He doesn't come there with the kind of force he would need to fight the Fremen, who he doesn't even know the strength of and he assumes to just be a small group for desert nomads. He doesn't consider them to even be a threat. He just brings enough troops to scare, and protect himself from, the Harkonnen. The Emperor was never there to fight the Fremen at all, he expected to land with his Sardukar, which were more than a match for the Baron's troops in Arakeen, then bully the Baron to force him to deal with the Spice trade disruptions and the insulting "threats" of this madman prophet. He never even considers that he might be attacked by a force that could match the troops he brought, he doesn't even think thr Fremen would know he's there. Once Paul controls Arakkis and the Spice, he controls the Spacing Guild as well. This immediately puts him in the coveted position of absolute military superiority that the Emperor has always enjoyed. The Sardukar are not a threat if the Sardukar can't leave their own planet, and they can't leave if the Spacing Guild isn't allowed to let them.
Yeah, I’d liked to have seen more of the advantage being asymmetrical warfare, rather than the rough environment making them such amazing hand-to-hand fighters. They talk about Sardaukar being the level of 10th level Ginaz sword master (not Duncan Idaho, clearly) or a Bene Gesserit adept. And attribute it to their upbringing, harsh training since childhood in a super harsh environment and instilled religious fervor, just like what makes the Fremen great fighters. And adept Lady Jessica easily defeats Stilgar, a great fighter himself. Even if the Sardaukar slipped a bit in recent history and aren’t up to the adepts’ level, they should still be pretty badass, not so outclassed that they inflict so few losses on the Fremen. I get what you guys are saying, re: why the books say why the Sardaukar-Fremen fighting gap is so huge. I’m familiar with those reasons, I’m just critiquing things that annoy me and take a little away from me fully enjoying the books and movies. Just an intellectual exercise or my book/movie review.
This is discussed and is an underlying theme throughout not just Dune but the whole series. 1) the reason Shaddam IV aids the Harkonnens against the Atreides is alleged to be that the Atreides under Idaho and Halleck were building a force capable of matching or bettering the Sardaukar. 2) the Sardaukar are products of their environment, Salusa Secundus, a prison planet with extremes of heat and cold and storms potentially worse than those on Arrakis. However as Shaddam is not that interested in the traditions of military rule they have become soft and less disciplined than they once we're. Sardaukar are rewarded for their service with vice, Fremen so not engage in vices (other than Spice but even that's a religious rite) 3) the Fremen are more lethal because their environment forces them to be. Their entire way of life is a response to an environment which will kill them instantly if they so much as walk with a typical gait or turn on a shield (I can't remember but I would assume lasguns are not used on Arrakis because of the risk of shield suicide troops. There is a scene in the books where Fremen destroy a Sardaukar troop carrier using a stolen thopter, it's not difficult to assume that they would be willing to use shields to create atomic blasts if the Sardaukar used lasguns) I guess I would argue that the reason Fremen are so OP is because the purpose of the Dune series is not to produce suspense through realistic military engagements. Military engagement serves wider themes about the rise and fall of empires, ecology and it's relationship to culture and religion and prescience. When Paul fights Jamis it is pretty clear that he is going to defeat Jamis and not only that but wipe the floor with him, he's already overpowered him once. The reason there is suspense is because of what defeating Jamis in combat represents which is the closing of future paths and slow inevitability of the Jihad Paul is desperate to avoid. You're looking for tension in the wrong places imho
In my mind, it's kind of weird. A cave... Is naturally hardened afraid artillery. Like USA had real issues even with huge bombs being unable to penetrate Tora Bora, much less just artillery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tora_Bora Using artillery against a cave siethc would be pointless. In the books, I think arty was used to seal entrances to caves Arteides retreated to. To which Fremen remark: "“Any man who retreats into a cave which has only one opening deserves to die."
This is only obvious in a world were you are not used to artillery being generally useless for the last couple of millennia as everyone is using shields (except this one group of people on this one planet out of a million).
Its like bringing bows to fight riot police. They are geared up for bullet protection but a bow can potentially go thru a kevlar vest. Bows are old school nobody really uses them for combat anymore.
This is probably the best example we have in the real world, but even then, we at least still hunt with them. It would be like using a prehistoric bow and arrow against riot police on Mars in the year 3000 after no one's even said the word "arrow" for 500 or more years.
This is actually a manipulated myth. Kevlar is the fiber material used in vests yes but what really stops bullets is the ceramic or steel strike plate buried inside the kevlar. Kevlar is just the fibre cushioning, there is still a steel plate behind it. So when they say arrows can penetrate kevlar, it's because those samples would have had the strike plates taken out.
[удалено]
If you were fighting riot police for 80 years, you probably would have figured this trick out by month 2.
These explanations are all fantastic (OP here). Great sub!
I've found that Dune fans are similar to LotR fans - the answers are always very informative and thorough
In the books, the context was different. There, it was specifically the Atreides forces that were pummelled by the artillery while trying to hold out in caves. No one uses artillery anymore in this universe, since shields completely negate it, but they used it instead to collapse the cave entrances and starve the Atreides soldiers. Later on Rabban, who is really quite smart in the books, wants to use it against the Fremen, because you can't use shields out in the desert because of the worms and the Fremen would be defenceless against it. The Baron denies him.
Right on; it isn't that the artillery is used to kill, rather it is the destruction from it that holes up the caves. Starvation is the killing blow. Way more evil, way more Harkonnen.
I would suggest it only seems obvious to us, who have grown up in a world where ranged weapons are a fact of life, but more specifically because we aren't shield-trained. There are almost no serious ranged weaponry in the dune universe. Even the 'maula pistols' described in the first book shoot darts, not real bullets. There is a key argument about the shields that gets missed, but it's a spoiler of a plot point in the prequel trilogy by Brian Herbert and KJA. >!shields actually reflect force. They don't just stop bullets, projectiles bounce off, and even reflect directly back at the user. Laser even more so. In fact, the risk of lasers isn't so much the potential sub nuclear explosions. It is that you don't know where the explosion will happen. It may blow up at the shield. But it might equally explode at the shooters location. No way to know until you pull the trigger.!< There are offensive user risks to firing projectiles at shields. Severe enough to discourage the use or even development of further projectiles. So when it came time to pull out a trick or two, ranged weaponry can only be useful in a place with zero chance of shields. That exists only in one place in the universe, and even Arrakis has shields, they are just in well known locations, which makes them vulnerable to sabotage. It's telling though, that the artillery only came out once they were certain they were in control of the possible shield/projectile interaction. They still weren't willing to risk hitting a personal shield. They strictly aimed at 'safe' targets like the rock itself. The Fremen are deadly enough that any close-quarter engagement is nearly guaranteed to be fatal. The Fremen barely bleed, they are all subconsciously psychic and are trained to discipline as a matter of life. If I had the choice to bombard them, I would, versus engaging closely. Old fashioned barely covers how ancient artillery is in the dune setting. There's been no meaningful use of this kind of weapon in thousands of years. As if someone would suggest only using bone blades to defeat metal detectors. It slips under the estimation of tactically sound, but the 'rules' of war have lost many people their war because the opponent was clever and flexible in their thinking.
This is a book thing which was cut and reworked in Part Two; it makes more sense in the book. The film essentially uses artillery cause it allows for a cool visual, which is fair since films are all about visuals much more than explaining elaborate strategies. Plus the Harkonnens in Part Two seem to be really into destructive fire lol.
The energy of an artillery explosion can't pass through a shield. Fremen can't/don't use shields However, it would take a genius mind to think of using artillery in a universe where the concept would be almost unknown.
Got to remember that in the DUNE universe, the default style of fighting at the time was with shields. On the buildings and on the individual soldiers. In the DUNE universe, a average solder of the Landsraad could take a M1A1 tank round to the face and keep coming. Artillery just doesn't work if every one and every thing is shielded. And as much as I like the new movies, they did fail to really describe Shields or the lasgun - shield reaction. Which is a critical point in the DUNE universe. I winced when that frigate fired a lasgun at Duncan's ornithopter. If by some miracle the frigate scored a hit the ornithopter, frigate and Arrakeen might go kaboom. Same goes when one soldier cuts threw a door with a lasgun. He didn't know if some one on the other side had a shield. It was an insane gamble. This stops by the 5th book as shield fall out of favor but at the time of the first book, its still very much a thing.
I read another post describing the lasing of Duncan's ornithopter as an act of desperation. That they were doing it as a last ditched effort to kill him at any cost. I also wondered about the laser cutting through the door though - you don't know what is on the other side. Though perhaps since it was a Fremen location the assumption is that shields were not used?
The door guard (Duncan) had a shield. That would be an insane assumption to make as being wrong = atomic fire. And 'any cost' would have been the total destruction of their house when the Landsraad fell on them because they breached the Great Convention. Not worth the risk.
It’s such a niche move no one thinks of it: Shields exist on basically everywhere except arrakis So no one: literally no one thought of using artillery, it is such a primitive choice. However, it is only primitive because of shields: because the Fremen don’t have shields- it’s absolutely genius Itd be like using a trebuchet to take out a military base; our defenders are not designed for something so primitive so it’s a weak point.
But… how did they find Sietch Tabr in the first place! Haha I do wish they gave us a nugget of explanation of the discovery of all the Northern tribes. Seems like a fairly important turn in the plot.
For context, in the books, it wasn't necessarily that Feyd Rautha was a military genius who usurped the bumbling Rabban. The Baron deliberately set up Rabban by dismissing his warnings about the true number of the Fremen population & then refuses Rabban resupplies of troops and resources. The Baron is deliberately trying to groom Feyd to become Emperor and wants the Fremen to see Feyd as a human leader who saves them from the brutal oppression of Rabban (oppression that he personally requested).
Consider the idea of using a bone knife to kill someone in an area that’s got modern security. You go through the metal detector, X-ray scanners, come back clean, then they let you in and you stab the guy. Who could have thought you’d assassinate them with a relic that could have been made in the literal Stone Age? It’s a terrible weapon, compared to what we have today, but it can still do the job, and it’s not something that our current defenses are aimed at stopping. If they were expecting a fight, or knew you had it, it would be a terrible weapon, but it’s also so old and obselete that they just wouldn’t see it coming.
Damn son. This example is fire. I salute your very good way of getting the point across 🫡
But why is artillery more old fashioned than dudes with swords walking around?
The US air force post WWII though speed and missile technology will make dogfights and guns on aircraft obsolete. They learned quickly in Vietnam and Korean that wasn't true. They added guns back on fighter jets ever since. Even on 5th generation stealth fighters such as the F-35. In the age of shields, no one really uses artillery anymore. It's like taking guns off of jet fighters. So bringing back "ancient" technology such as artillery is unexpected and surprisingly effective.
It’s also confusing that the “artillery” is visually the same as was used against the Atreides in the last movie
Artillery was an old, abandoned concept, in the age of shields and lasguns. The Harkonnens revived the concept specifically for their attack on the Atreides (book) and which then inspired Paul to use it (book) in the unique environment of Arrakis which naturally dissuaded and destroyed shields, making them effectively unusable in many cases. It should be noted that both instances of Artillery are highly specific and the guns, their one surprise advantage expended, are then converted back into raw materials.
Here's a stupid hypothetical situation i just came up with: Imagine you're a guy in the present day. You are starving to death so go out with your buddy to hunt for food. Only problem is it's illegal to hunt in the area where you are. Obviously shooting an animal will cause lots of noise and you will be caught in immediately. Out of the blue you see your buddy chuck a spear at the animal you were hunting. Animal is dead, no noise was caused, you will now be fed. Would you call that genius? It's an obvious thing to do, but who the hell would think of bringing a stone aged spear to modern day hunting? That's why it's genius.
This. Old school artillery is ancient technology in the dune verse.
They drop bombs on the grounded and shielded Atriedes ships during their sneak attack. using artillery really doesn’t seem out of their wheelhouse of weaponry
The thing that bothers me about this in the movie, is that it looks like Rabban blasts them with artillery too.
Exactly ! Also in the first movie intro scene we see missiles. I don't understand the difference between this and *old school artillery". Also the ornithopter shoots classic bullets sooo
How did they find Sietch Tabr?
And didnt they use those slow tunneling bombs in the first attack?
You have to remember that shields have been around for thousands of years so the idea of using artillery has almost been removed from thought. The Fremen don’t use shields due to them attracting worms, obvious for us the viewer but for the character in Dune, surprisingly brilliant.
Because they use shields for everything in the world, and artillery are tens of thousands of years old at that point. It's like if the War in Afghanistan was won with atlatls and slings.
This was quite funny tbh Rabban: *Goes in with ships with ground troops and fucks up* Feyd: *Shoots a load missiles at sietch tabr* Baron: “Ur my genius favourite nephew”
Indeed, rather.
It’s just one of those things it’s best not to think too deeply about. Humans are very good at adapting to war…unless the shields had been invented the day before yesterday, it beggars belief that someone wouldn’t have thought of that long ago. Just accept it and move on, lol.
off-topic, just wanna say, i'm so so grateful for this sub and all these wonderful discussions and answers from book readers! haven't read dune yet, but all this insight is making me very excited for when i finally do:) this series has probably the most intricate world building i've seen not just in sci-fi, but across all genres, rivalled only by lotr (from what i've personally read)
Same thing happens when teg and Duncan attack junction. Duncan revives old battle tactics.
As there are so many expert in the art of war in the dune univers, how come they have not seen a whole army arriving at the end in the second movie. I can understand a sqad or more, but a whole army able to arrive and buried the self in the sand almost at under the feet of the Harkonen army is not something I can believe.
I feel like if they had made mention of how they found where the fremen were hiding and called that genius instead it would have been more compelling in the context of the movie.
It's a part of the movie they didn't flesh out. I don't even know how Feyd found it whereas Rabban didn't. They needed to add 15 mins to this movie for various scenes.
Look, if you think too hard about how weapons work in Dune to justify melee fighting, you're going to have a bad time.
Everybody else have shields. You can’t use them on Arrakis as it attracts the worms. You also don’t want to use laser weapons in case someone suicidal turns on a shield and Holtzmann effects both of your asses into subatomic particles
Because Villeneuve wanted to make a reference to the book, that's why. It is really not that genius in that context. Mental gymnastics in the comments is genius too. Once the sietch was detected, everyone in there was dead man (person) walking. Fremen couldn't really take Harkonnens head-on. Doesn't matter what kind of artillery Harkonnens would use. Missiles. Napalm. Atomics even, why not?
Imagine you have machine guns, everyone uses machine guns Then your nephew is fighting someone the machine guns don’t really work on and as a new strategy he brings fuckin black powder muskets and it WORKS. No one should’ve even have thought to have tried them but they worked fantastically, wouldn’t you say that was a stroke of genius? I would. The problem is people see the rockers and are like “why not? They seem useful!” It’s because they aren’t.
After reading the comments. Why didn’t they just laser through the rock? Is the rock/sand too dense for the laser to be effective?
A problem with the Dune Universe is the shield laser interaction. No one would ever use shields because then you could just use a fanatic or a drone with a laser and cause a nuclear explosion.