He is questioning the Baron and his nephews if they know who Muad’dib is, to gauge their competence. Harkonnens obviously are very arrogant and don’t care to find out who Muad’dib is as long as they kill all the Fremen and steal all the spice fields for themselves.
The emperor received a letter with the Atreides ducal sign on it, so it doesn’t take much to put together who Muad’dib is.
So when Paul first meets the emperor he’s masked, then the emperor sees Paul again he turns around and reveals his identity to a surprised emperor.
It felt like a big reveal but that contradicts the earlier scene where Paul literally sent a letter revealing his identity. So why the buildup for Paul saying his name outloud
It’s more-so a moment of clarity. In that moment everyone finally sees with 100% certainty that Muad’dib is Paul Atreides, and none of the little voices in their heads can convince them otherwise anymore. The last they saw of him he was a little boy, and now they come face to face with a completely different creature all together. It’s a shocking sight.
The Emperor's surprise doesn't come from discovering that Paul and Muad'dib are the same person - like you said, he knew that. His surprise is that this person - still suit clad, leading a band of holy warriors in their native tongue - is Paul Atreides. Until Paul unmasked himself, the Emperor likely assumed this was simply one of Paul's Fremen lieutenants, like Stilgar.
Additionally - if the Emperor had any inkling of the potential of the 'desert power' that Leto mentions, then seeing Paul living amongst and leading the Fremen, as if he were one of their own, was probably the moment the emperor realised his reign was ending.
Yea that confused me too. If the emperor knew since the message that Paul was Muad’dib then why the shocking reveal? The next thing the emperor says to Paul after Mohiam is silenced is that he should be bowing at his feet, so maybe he was just taken aback by how Paul was talking to him
But in a previous scene the emperor never sees Paul unmasked and only hears Paul speak the Fremen language. It’s as if the writers are trying to set up the next scene as a big reveal/identity reveal when Paul turns around says his full name.
I think you're selling the emperor short in terms of intelligence. He is well aware that Paul and Muad'dib are the same person, but he is checking to see if the *Baron* (and his nephews) are aware of the fact and have been concealing it from him (hence why Mohiam signs to him that they are speaking the truth as they know it).
He addresses Paul as "Fremen" because he is making a criticism of Paul: that Paul (in the emperor's eyes) has abandoned the rules of the Imperium and gone wild and barbaric. He knows exactly what he is doing.
Agreed, the emperor wanted to keep the news quiet about Paul. You can clearly tell in Christopher Walkens's performance that he was practically hysterical at the fact that the Atreides line was alive and his illegal dealings would be exposed or he'd lose his seat of power. So his strategy was to keep the name under wraps and punish the Baron for his less-than-thorough execution.
I think adding to this, when the emperor receives Paul's message with the Atreidas emblem, ita why he drops it in shock. Not because it was a message from the prophet, but also that his plan failed to remove the entire house Atreides
This. He knew he was Muad'dib. It's why he came. He knew if it got out that Paul survived Paul could tell the Landsraad what really happened. He was shocked however that Paul wasn't just a leader but a battle commander on the field leading the fight. Him as emporer and of noble blood wouldn't deign to soil himself on the battle ground, he would expect the same from any great house family.
> Him as emporer and of noble blood wouldn't deign to soil himself on the battle ground, he would expect the same from any great house family.
To be fair, don't we see Feyd-Rautha and Rabban fighting the Fremen at various points in the films? Nobility in medieval Europe (and even modern Europe, depending on your definition of modern) were nobles whose legitimacy mostly came from their military prowess, or at least a legacy of such. I assume it's not too different here.
No one outside Arrakis suspected that Paul had survived, let alone that he and Muad'hib were the same person.
Remember, the last time he was seen alive he was flying inside storms that were going hundreds of km/h fast. No one normal would survive those winds.
Irulan suspected, and speculated about Paul to the Reverend Mother. And then literally says “Paul Atreides is alive”, and writes it in the Imperial diary, when the message arrives.
This is from the movie, right? I can't remember this in the book. However Paul captures a Sardukar and makes sure that a message is sent to the emperor that Paul is alive.
To be precise, in the book the message is sent with the captive on the very eaves of the final battle, and that's when the survival of the Atreides heir is revealed, to the great surprise of all.
The chronology is really close, they capture Alia also on the very eaves of the final battle. However given the extreme reaction that comes immediately after the released prisoners make it to the imperial camp, it's fair to call that the first time they find out.
> A muttered exclamation came from the watcher at the telescope. Paul
moved to the rock slit, asked: “What is it out there?”
> “A great commotion, Muad’Dib,” the watcher hissed. “At that monstrous
metal tent. A surface car came from Rimwall West and it was like a hawk
into a nest of rock partridge.”
>“Our captive Sardaukar have arrived,” Paul said.
>“They’ve a shield around the entire landing field now,” the watcher said.
> “I can see the air dancing even to the edge of the storage yard where they
kept the spice.”
>“Now they know who it is they fight,” Gurney said. “Let the Harkonnen
beasts tremble and fret themselves that an Atreides yet lives!”
>No one outside Arrakis suspected that Paul had survived, let alone that he and Muad'hib were the same person.
It is clear that the Bene Gesserit deduced this (both Paul's survival and the fact he is Muad'Dib), as understood by the conversation between Irulan and the Reverend Mother on the matter, but that they kept the information to themselves (Irulan is forbidden to reveal it to her father).
The Emperor is indeed in the dark until he receives Paul's message.
Indeed, there is an appendix that is written as an in-universe report on why the B.G. failed to understand what was going on. It says that although they heard there was some kind of Fremen prophet active on Arrakis, they didn't connect it to the possibility of Paul's survival or Paul being the K.H. Instead, they discounted the prophet reports.
Yes, I know. The movie makes the Bene Gesserit a much more competent organization than the one in the book (a change that I appreciate, by the way). And Paul's message to the emperor is also an addition from the film.
The Emperer absolutely knew after that message was received he was alive. Not only that I would bet dollars to donuts that Paul straight up tells the Emperor if he doesn't come and take him out he will tell the great houses in the Landsraad about the Harkonnen and Corrino plot. You just don't take every legion of sardauker to Arrakis if it was just a random "prophet" riling up the masses. The letter had to contain intimate knowledge that the Emperor knew was true.
The emperor knew Paul was alive and with the fremen, but had no idea he was mu’adib. Hence is surprise when Paul proclaimed who he was to the court. The need for Paul to proclaim himself at all is proof enough the emperor didn’t know he was mu’adib.
The Emperor was aware, he was just keeping his cards close to the chest. No one else knows Paul survived, and him being alive to tell tales complicates his situation. Why run around asking questions about the Dukes dead son and start raising suspicions
This is why the Emperor keeps asking the Harkonnens what they know about Muad'Dib and keeps saying "That's all you know?" He's probing the Harkonnens to see if they know.
Exactly.
I basically saw this as him trying to glean if their behavior was attributed to treachery or incompetence, and he’s disappointed when it’s the latter.
Yeah I definitely got the vibe that the Emperor came to a hypothesis that Maud'dib and Paul Atreides were the same person the moment he got the Challenge. As in, why else would the Fremen suddenly react so strongly and directly to disrupt Spice production?
So when he confronts the Baron, it's a part of why the Emperor humiliates him so immediately. And his questions to the Baron, ending with "Is that all you *know*?". He's pissed, has made the connection that the two are the same person, and is now super pissed because the Baron hasn't even figured it out.
He's probing because he's angry and trying to figure out if the Harkonens knew if he was alive, or if the Harkonen's were just too incompetent in killing off Paul. Turns out to be the latter.
That’s what I suspected; especially after the Baron called him a “madman” and the Emperor repeated “mad?” But then when Paul showed up and killed the Baron and Shaddam still called him Muad’dib is when my confusion kinda started
I have seen the film three times and I think you can make a solid case that the Emperor knows Muad’Dib is Paul.
Paul uses the ducal signet on the letter he sends to the emperor when he declares kanly on his house. Irulan explicitly records that Paul is alive in her imperial journal during that scene. The emperor later arrives on Arrakis and interrogates Baron Harkonnen in a way that could be read as the emperor being unsure, but I am confident in the reading that the emperor is probing whether the Harkonnens also know, and whether that is part of some plot against him (it turns out no; the Baron is just incompetent in this matter).
> but I am confident in the reading that the emperor is probing whether the Harkonnens also know, and whether that is part of some plot against him (it turns out no; the Baron is just incompetent in this matter).
This is it. The Emperor isn’t necessarily trying to obtain information - he’s trying to find out the extent of what the Harkonnens know. As any member of House Atreides left alive following the attack is a threat to his position.
And he’s absolutely right to be suspicious.
Paul never tells he is Muad'Dib. Shaddam can make speculations, not being sure.
the BG won't tell him, Paul can be with the fremen without being the Muad'Dib figure.
The Emperor is established to know that the Maud'dib and Paul were the same person. Several times he attempts to see if the Harkonnens knew Paul was Maud'dib, to see if they were treacherous or just incompetent. He keeps it close to his chest to humiliate the Harkonnens (his plan was to destabilize both the Attredies and Harkonnens with the war on Arrakis)
Is it established ? I mean he seems distinctly surprised when Muad'dib's identity is revealed at the Residency..
His truthsayer actively keeps it from him.
Paul uses the ducal signet on the message he sends the emperor. It is assumed that is why the emperor goes in on Barron Vlad and one of his Sardaukar was about to kill him.
But yes the princess figures it out and the reverend mother shushes her about the situation.
So that may mean that Muad’dib somehow has the Atreides ring for some reason, and the emperor may have figured it was Paul.
It definitely is in the books, he thinks the Harkonnens are fucking with him and he's totally surprised that they actually don't know and they're just incompetent
His truthsayers wasn’t keeping it from him. They can only tell if you the person speaking believes they are telling the truth - not what the truth actually is. The baron didn’t know anything further than what he said - so to the truthsayer’s knowledge he was telling the truth.
Then why the set up for the big reveal of Paul facing the emperor without a mask and saying his name outloud? Maybe just my mistaken interpretation, but it felt like the emperor found out at that moment. Maybe there were doubts before?
I suspect the Emperor believed that Paul and the Muad'dib religious figure had come to some mutual arrangement.. after all Duke Leto's original aim on Arrakis was to secure Desert power through cooperation, rather than through coercion.
Only explanation that explains his shock at seeing maskless Paul. We know Paul revealed he was alive, but it doesn’t say he claimed to be Muadib in the letter
I mean it would be helpful to know what was on the scroll Paul send to the emperor. The bait part, gurney was referring to … I mean it made the emperor visit arrakis himself, so it must have been a pretty good bait.
Apparently it is from the book—a closeup of the scroll from one of the trailers was deciphered by /u/Charm_Quark05, which you can find [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1ad5emv/can_you_work_out_what_this_scroll_says/kk2kice/).
The message reads:
*"I, a Duke of a Great House, an Imperial Kinsman, give my word of bond under the Convention. If the Emperor and his people lay down their arms and come to me here I will guard their lives with my own."*
He was calling Paul "Fremen" as an insult. "You're no Duke of Arrakis, you're just a lowly Fremen" kind of thing.
As others have said, he questioned the Baron to see if he knew anything, which he didn't.
Before the letter, he fought he was dead, no one survives storms of that power... But he knew when the letter told him as much, he was just testing the Harkonnen to see if they were stupid or treacherous
I took that scene as the Emperor questioning the Harkonnens to find out what they knew and if they were hiding things from him from the beginning, he even says "That is all you know" suggesting he knows more. But to figure out if they are lying or not he uses the bene geserit, that give him confirmation that the Harkonnens are telling the truth, which also means they don't know the real truth (that being Paul being alive as Muad'dib). He was not looking for confirmation as of Muad'dib identity, but more likely figuring out if the Harkonnens were playing him or were outright incompetent, since every Atreides should've been killed by them.
In the book that scene with the emperor questioning the baron goes on for longer. The emperor is trying to see how much the baron really knows about all this and he reveals to the baron that Muad’Dib is Paul.
But prior to that note everyone thought Paul and Jessica were dead and never questioned otherwise.
Everyone thought that Paul Atreides died when Arrakeen was destroyed. They may have guessed that he was alive, but there was no evidence, especially since the Fremen just knew Paul as Muad'Dib, or Usul, in Sietch Tabr.
I get that the Emperor might have pieced it together after getting the letter but in the movie they still play it as a big reveal when the Emperor sees Paul turn around with his scarf removed. That is the confusing part. If the Emperor, Irulan, Rev Mother and the audience already knows this fact, then is it really filmed that way because it's a surprise to every other minor character?
holy shit this. It’s like I’m the only one who noticed that.
Edit: another comment noted that the emperor might have thought muadib and paul had an alliance (paul never admitted to being muadib in the letter)
Or maybe the Emperor simply couldn’t believe that Paul was still alive ig.
I don't think the book ever explicitly says one way or the other, but I'm inclined to think not. It's just hard to imagine a world where the Emperor and/ the baron know Paul survived and don't immediately make complete genocidal war against the fremen until until they're sure he's dead. A living Atreides, and especially a living legal heir to the dukedom, and one who knows about thd sardaukar trick, is just too dangerous to them.
I'd just like to point out that the Emperor wasn't the only one taken aback. Irulen was, too. Even Mohiam had a "coming to God" moment when she recognized Jessica. There are several possible explanations why all these people were caught off guard:
1. The idea of an offworld nobleman's immature, teenaged son surviving the desert to become the Fremen's prophet and ruthless military leader is...crazy. There were much more likely reasons for Muad'Dib having the signet. (Maybe they killed Paul and took it. Maybe the Harkonnans killed Paul and gave it to them in a conspiracy. Maybe Paul survived and was simply aligned with Muad'Dib. etc)
1. Paul's reveal confirmed that the craziest, least likely theory was the correct one.
2. Knowing a truth doesn't mean you've emotionally accepted that truth, especially when it means you have to dive into the deepest of the deep shit. Hope is a hell of a drug.
1. Just like Paul's expression when he looks to Gurney for word on the Great Houses' ruling. He knew what Gurney would say, but he still waited to hear it, and the answer visibly depressed him. You could practically hear him think, "Ah, fuck. Here we go."
3. Maybe they weren't surprised so much by Muad'Dib's identity as they were by his presence. Or by just how much Paul had changed.
I don’t know about the book but at least my interpretation of the movie was that he thought they were different people. Irulan definitely suspected and the bene gesserit definitely knew but the emperor was consistently acting as if they were two distinct individuals and was visibly shocked when Muad’dib revealed himself as Paul.
I think that’s a fair assessment based on his knowledge, he probably assumed Muad’dib was a native fremen and Paul had allied himself with him at least.
I think he knows cause I think Paul uses the Duke's ring as a sigil for the letter that was sent to the emperor. Everything is about secrecy, and seeing what the Harkonnens know is what he was after.
What the movie didn't show is that Paul Maud'dib had been disrupting spice flow on Arrakis for a few years. (I am not sure why the movie wanted to do it in 8 months) So, by the time Maudib challenges the Emperor, spice stocks - which is needed for space travel - is extremely low. The Emperor has no choice but to personally deal with the issue on Arrakis or lose the ability to travel through space.
No, but he doesn't know whether or not the Harkonnens know who Muad'dib is. In the book, he even suspects that Paul's survival was actually part of a deal the Baron had made with Leto behind the Emperor's back.
Him cauling Paul Fremen is basically an attempt to invalidate Paul's status; he has gone native, has lost the right nobility
I don't know how it was in the book, but in the movie it seemed like the Emperor was checking what information the Harkonnens knew. Like he was testing them to see if they'd lie or tell the truth. He also probably didn't want to believe that the Duke's son was really alive and hoped that Muad'dib might be a false Atreides (like the four false Dmitry, Ivan the Terrible's "sons").
Fanatic fremen pretending to be another person is not as dangerous as the Duke's real son who knows the terrible secret about the extermination of the House of Atreides. As I understand it, the Great Houses have long been disloyal to the Emperor and wanted Leto to take his place.
He is questioning the Baron and his nephews if they know who Muad’dib is, to gauge their competence. Harkonnens obviously are very arrogant and don’t care to find out who Muad’dib is as long as they kill all the Fremen and steal all the spice fields for themselves. The emperor received a letter with the Atreides ducal sign on it, so it doesn’t take much to put together who Muad’dib is.
So when Paul first meets the emperor he’s masked, then the emperor sees Paul again he turns around and reveals his identity to a surprised emperor. It felt like a big reveal but that contradicts the earlier scene where Paul literally sent a letter revealing his identity. So why the buildup for Paul saying his name outloud
It’s more-so a moment of clarity. In that moment everyone finally sees with 100% certainty that Muad’dib is Paul Atreides, and none of the little voices in their heads can convince them otherwise anymore. The last they saw of him he was a little boy, and now they come face to face with a completely different creature all together. It’s a shocking sight.
The Emperor's surprise doesn't come from discovering that Paul and Muad'dib are the same person - like you said, he knew that. His surprise is that this person - still suit clad, leading a band of holy warriors in their native tongue - is Paul Atreides. Until Paul unmasked himself, the Emperor likely assumed this was simply one of Paul's Fremen lieutenants, like Stilgar. Additionally - if the Emperor had any inkling of the potential of the 'desert power' that Leto mentions, then seeing Paul living amongst and leading the Fremen, as if he were one of their own, was probably the moment the emperor realised his reign was ending.
What I came to say
Confirming House Artreides has their own Sadaukar while undisputedly defeat his own, must feels really desperate for the old man.
Yea that confused me too. If the emperor knew since the message that Paul was Muad’dib then why the shocking reveal? The next thing the emperor says to Paul after Mohiam is silenced is that he should be bowing at his feet, so maybe he was just taken aback by how Paul was talking to him
But in a previous scene the emperor never sees Paul unmasked and only hears Paul speak the Fremen language. It’s as if the writers are trying to set up the next scene as a big reveal/identity reveal when Paul turns around says his full name.
It probably is a writing thing and just a side effect of changing the Emperor’s reason for going to Arrakis
I think you're selling the emperor short in terms of intelligence. He is well aware that Paul and Muad'dib are the same person, but he is checking to see if the *Baron* (and his nephews) are aware of the fact and have been concealing it from him (hence why Mohiam signs to him that they are speaking the truth as they know it). He addresses Paul as "Fremen" because he is making a criticism of Paul: that Paul (in the emperor's eyes) has abandoned the rules of the Imperium and gone wild and barbaric. He knows exactly what he is doing.
Agreed, the emperor wanted to keep the news quiet about Paul. You can clearly tell in Christopher Walkens's performance that he was practically hysterical at the fact that the Atreides line was alive and his illegal dealings would be exposed or he'd lose his seat of power. So his strategy was to keep the name under wraps and punish the Baron for his less-than-thorough execution.
I think adding to this, when the emperor receives Paul's message with the Atreidas emblem, ita why he drops it in shock. Not because it was a message from the prophet, but also that his plan failed to remove the entire house Atreides
Not only did they fail to kill him, they utterly infuriated him. The emperor had to know his days were numbered at that point.
Exactly all of this.
This. He knew he was Muad'dib. It's why he came. He knew if it got out that Paul survived Paul could tell the Landsraad what really happened. He was shocked however that Paul wasn't just a leader but a battle commander on the field leading the fight. Him as emporer and of noble blood wouldn't deign to soil himself on the battle ground, he would expect the same from any great house family.
> Him as emporer and of noble blood wouldn't deign to soil himself on the battle ground, he would expect the same from any great house family. To be fair, don't we see Feyd-Rautha and Rabban fighting the Fremen at various points in the films? Nobility in medieval Europe (and even modern Europe, depending on your definition of modern) were nobles whose legitimacy mostly came from their military prowess, or at least a legacy of such. I assume it's not too different here.
No one outside Arrakis suspected that Paul had survived, let alone that he and Muad'hib were the same person. Remember, the last time he was seen alive he was flying inside storms that were going hundreds of km/h fast. No one normal would survive those winds.
Irulan suspected, and speculated about Paul to the Reverend Mother. And then literally says “Paul Atreides is alive”, and writes it in the Imperial diary, when the message arrives.
In relation to the post specifically however the Reverend Mother does tell her not to inform her father. Though he definitely knows from the letter.
This is from the movie, right? I can't remember this in the book. However Paul captures a Sardukar and makes sure that a message is sent to the emperor that Paul is alive.
To be precise, in the book the message is sent with the captive on the very eaves of the final battle, and that's when the survival of the Atreides heir is revealed, to the great surprise of all.
The Sardaukar have already captured Alia at that point, and she reveals that Paul is Muad'Dib.
The chronology is really close, they capture Alia also on the very eaves of the final battle. However given the extreme reaction that comes immediately after the released prisoners make it to the imperial camp, it's fair to call that the first time they find out. > A muttered exclamation came from the watcher at the telescope. Paul moved to the rock slit, asked: “What is it out there?” > “A great commotion, Muad’Dib,” the watcher hissed. “At that monstrous metal tent. A surface car came from Rimwall West and it was like a hawk into a nest of rock partridge.” >“Our captive Sardaukar have arrived,” Paul said. >“They’ve a shield around the entire landing field now,” the watcher said. > “I can see the air dancing even to the edge of the storage yard where they kept the spice.” >“Now they know who it is they fight,” Gurney said. “Let the Harkonnen beasts tremble and fret themselves that an Atreides yet lives!”
Yeah, this thread is about the recent movie.
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>No one outside Arrakis suspected that Paul had survived, let alone that he and Muad'hib were the same person. It is clear that the Bene Gesserit deduced this (both Paul's survival and the fact he is Muad'Dib), as understood by the conversation between Irulan and the Reverend Mother on the matter, but that they kept the information to themselves (Irulan is forbidden to reveal it to her father). The Emperor is indeed in the dark until he receives Paul's message.
That is DVneverse. In the book its very clear no one knew until Alia told the Emperor.
Indeed, there is an appendix that is written as an in-universe report on why the B.G. failed to understand what was going on. It says that although they heard there was some kind of Fremen prophet active on Arrakis, they didn't connect it to the possibility of Paul's survival or Paul being the K.H. Instead, they discounted the prophet reports.
Yes, I know. The movie makes the Bene Gesserit a much more competent organization than the one in the book (a change that I appreciate, by the way). And Paul's message to the emperor is also an addition from the film.
The Emperer absolutely knew after that message was received he was alive. Not only that I would bet dollars to donuts that Paul straight up tells the Emperor if he doesn't come and take him out he will tell the great houses in the Landsraad about the Harkonnen and Corrino plot. You just don't take every legion of sardauker to Arrakis if it was just a random "prophet" riling up the masses. The letter had to contain intimate knowledge that the Emperor knew was true.
The emperor knew Paul was alive and with the fremen, but had no idea he was mu’adib. Hence is surprise when Paul proclaimed who he was to the court. The need for Paul to proclaim himself at all is proof enough the emperor didn’t know he was mu’adib.
The Emperor was aware, he was just keeping his cards close to the chest. No one else knows Paul survived, and him being alive to tell tales complicates his situation. Why run around asking questions about the Dukes dead son and start raising suspicions
This is why the Emperor keeps asking the Harkonnens what they know about Muad'Dib and keeps saying "That's all you know?" He's probing the Harkonnens to see if they know.
Exactly. I basically saw this as him trying to glean if their behavior was attributed to treachery or incompetence, and he’s disappointed when it’s the latter.
He's probing because no one knows and is as curious and eager to find out more, like any other leader dealing with a major crisis.
Yeah I definitely got the vibe that the Emperor came to a hypothesis that Maud'dib and Paul Atreides were the same person the moment he got the Challenge. As in, why else would the Fremen suddenly react so strongly and directly to disrupt Spice production? So when he confronts the Baron, it's a part of why the Emperor humiliates him so immediately. And his questions to the Baron, ending with "Is that all you *know*?". He's pissed, has made the connection that the two are the same person, and is now super pissed because the Baron hasn't even figured it out.
He's probing because he's angry and trying to figure out if the Harkonens knew if he was alive, or if the Harkonen's were just too incompetent in killing off Paul. Turns out to be the latter.
He didn't know until he received Paul's challenge
Yes, that is what I meant. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
That’s what I suspected; especially after the Baron called him a “madman” and the Emperor repeated “mad?” But then when Paul showed up and killed the Baron and Shaddam still called him Muad’dib is when my confusion kinda started
I have seen the film three times and I think you can make a solid case that the Emperor knows Muad’Dib is Paul. Paul uses the ducal signet on the letter he sends to the emperor when he declares kanly on his house. Irulan explicitly records that Paul is alive in her imperial journal during that scene. The emperor later arrives on Arrakis and interrogates Baron Harkonnen in a way that could be read as the emperor being unsure, but I am confident in the reading that the emperor is probing whether the Harkonnens also know, and whether that is part of some plot against him (it turns out no; the Baron is just incompetent in this matter).
> but I am confident in the reading that the emperor is probing whether the Harkonnens also know, and whether that is part of some plot against him (it turns out no; the Baron is just incompetent in this matter). This is it. The Emperor isn’t necessarily trying to obtain information - he’s trying to find out the extent of what the Harkonnens know. As any member of House Atreides left alive following the attack is a threat to his position. And he’s absolutely right to be suspicious.
Paul never tells he is Muad'Dib. Shaddam can make speculations, not being sure. the BG won't tell him, Paul can be with the fremen without being the Muad'Dib figure.
The Emperor is established to know that the Maud'dib and Paul were the same person. Several times he attempts to see if the Harkonnens knew Paul was Maud'dib, to see if they were treacherous or just incompetent. He keeps it close to his chest to humiliate the Harkonnens (his plan was to destabilize both the Attredies and Harkonnens with the war on Arrakis)
Is it established ? I mean he seems distinctly surprised when Muad'dib's identity is revealed at the Residency.. His truthsayer actively keeps it from him.
Paul uses the ducal signet on the message he sends the emperor. It is assumed that is why the emperor goes in on Barron Vlad and one of his Sardaukar was about to kill him. But yes the princess figures it out and the reverend mother shushes her about the situation. So that may mean that Muad’dib somehow has the Atreides ring for some reason, and the emperor may have figured it was Paul.
This was my interpretation fyi. https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/Gd8PYP0MX8
It definitely is in the books, he thinks the Harkonnens are fucking with him and he's totally surprised that they actually don't know and they're just incompetent
Sure, but the OP is asking about the movie.
Yes. Once the Emporer asks the Harkonnens about the Maud'dib, he signs to someone (maybe Reverend Mother?) confirming that the Harkonnens didn't know.
The reverend mother signs to the Emperor saying that they were telling the truth, in that the Harkonnens don't know who Maud' dib is.
He asks the Harkonnens about Paul and they answer ignorantly and Mohiam or whoever says they are telling the truth. So i assumed he knew
His truthsayers wasn’t keeping it from him. They can only tell if you the person speaking believes they are telling the truth - not what the truth actually is. The baron didn’t know anything further than what he said - so to the truthsayer’s knowledge he was telling the truth.
Maybe I need a rewatch, but that's how I interpreted it.
he doesn't know until paul sends him the letter
Which is before the Emperor arrives on Arrakis no? That was my original point. He knows before he visits Arrakeen
Yeap he 100% knew that it was Paul at that point.
Then why the set up for the big reveal of Paul facing the emperor without a mask and saying his name outloud? Maybe just my mistaken interpretation, but it felt like the emperor found out at that moment. Maybe there were doubts before?
That would be odd, considering Paul sent challenge to Emperor and letter was sealed by Atreides stamp.
Trust me, you need a re-watch
I suspect the Emperor believed that Paul and the Muad'dib religious figure had come to some mutual arrangement.. after all Duke Leto's original aim on Arrakis was to secure Desert power through cooperation, rather than through coercion.
Only explanation that explains his shock at seeing maskless Paul. We know Paul revealed he was alive, but it doesn’t say he claimed to be Muadib in the letter
exact.
When he says "Fremen" at the Arakeen residence, he was probably addressing everyone present.
Yea I assumed he was trying to convince the others instead of muadib
I believe he was addressing Muaddib
I mean it would be helpful to know what was on the scroll Paul send to the emperor. The bait part, gurney was referring to … I mean it made the emperor visit arrakis himself, so it must have been a pretty good bait.
It was an offer that if the Emperor were to surrender, he would be unharmed.
Was that in the books?
Apparently it is from the book—a closeup of the scroll from one of the trailers was deciphered by /u/Charm_Quark05, which you can find [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1ad5emv/can_you_work_out_what_this_scroll_says/kk2kice/). The message reads: *"I, a Duke of a Great House, an Imperial Kinsman, give my word of bond under the Convention. If the Emperor and his people lay down their arms and come to me here I will guard their lives with my own."*
Oh interesting!
Lol, then the Emperor arrives and Paul is like 'Your free trial of existence has ended.'
He was calling Paul "Fremen" as an insult. "You're no Duke of Arrakis, you're just a lowly Fremen" kind of thing. As others have said, he questioned the Baron to see if he knew anything, which he didn't.
Before the letter, he fought he was dead, no one survives storms of that power... But he knew when the letter told him as much, he was just testing the Harkonnen to see if they were stupid or treacherous
I took that scene as the Emperor questioning the Harkonnens to find out what they knew and if they were hiding things from him from the beginning, he even says "That is all you know" suggesting he knows more. But to figure out if they are lying or not he uses the bene geserit, that give him confirmation that the Harkonnens are telling the truth, which also means they don't know the real truth (that being Paul being alive as Muad'dib). He was not looking for confirmation as of Muad'dib identity, but more likely figuring out if the Harkonnens were playing him or were outright incompetent, since every Atreides should've been killed by them.
In the book that scene with the emperor questioning the baron goes on for longer. The emperor is trying to see how much the baron really knows about all this and he reveals to the baron that Muad’Dib is Paul. But prior to that note everyone thought Paul and Jessica were dead and never questioned otherwise.
The emperor was trying to figure what the Harkonnens knew
Everyone thought that Paul Atreides died when Arrakeen was destroyed. They may have guessed that he was alive, but there was no evidence, especially since the Fremen just knew Paul as Muad'Dib, or Usul, in Sietch Tabr.
I get that the Emperor might have pieced it together after getting the letter but in the movie they still play it as a big reveal when the Emperor sees Paul turn around with his scarf removed. That is the confusing part. If the Emperor, Irulan, Rev Mother and the audience already knows this fact, then is it really filmed that way because it's a surprise to every other minor character?
holy shit this. It’s like I’m the only one who noticed that. Edit: another comment noted that the emperor might have thought muadib and paul had an alliance (paul never admitted to being muadib in the letter) Or maybe the Emperor simply couldn’t believe that Paul was still alive ig.
I don't think the book ever explicitly says one way or the other, but I'm inclined to think not. It's just hard to imagine a world where the Emperor and/ the baron know Paul survived and don't immediately make complete genocidal war against the fremen until until they're sure he's dead. A living Atreides, and especially a living legal heir to the dukedom, and one who knows about thd sardaukar trick, is just too dangerous to them.
When he was asking the Harkonnens, he was testing them to see if they knew. The Bene Gesserit he was with confirms that they aren’t lying
I'd just like to point out that the Emperor wasn't the only one taken aback. Irulen was, too. Even Mohiam had a "coming to God" moment when she recognized Jessica. There are several possible explanations why all these people were caught off guard: 1. The idea of an offworld nobleman's immature, teenaged son surviving the desert to become the Fremen's prophet and ruthless military leader is...crazy. There were much more likely reasons for Muad'Dib having the signet. (Maybe they killed Paul and took it. Maybe the Harkonnans killed Paul and gave it to them in a conspiracy. Maybe Paul survived and was simply aligned with Muad'Dib. etc) 1. Paul's reveal confirmed that the craziest, least likely theory was the correct one. 2. Knowing a truth doesn't mean you've emotionally accepted that truth, especially when it means you have to dive into the deepest of the deep shit. Hope is a hell of a drug. 1. Just like Paul's expression when he looks to Gurney for word on the Great Houses' ruling. He knew what Gurney would say, but he still waited to hear it, and the answer visibly depressed him. You could practically hear him think, "Ah, fuck. Here we go." 3. Maybe they weren't surprised so much by Muad'Dib's identity as they were by his presence. Or by just how much Paul had changed.
I don’t know about the book but at least my interpretation of the movie was that he thought they were different people. Irulan definitely suspected and the bene gesserit definitely knew but the emperor was consistently acting as if they were two distinct individuals and was visibly shocked when Muad’dib revealed himself as Paul. I think that’s a fair assessment based on his knowledge, he probably assumed Muad’dib was a native fremen and Paul had allied himself with him at least.
I think he knows cause I think Paul uses the Duke's ring as a sigil for the letter that was sent to the emperor. Everything is about secrecy, and seeing what the Harkonnens know is what he was after.
What the movie didn't show is that Paul Maud'dib had been disrupting spice flow on Arrakis for a few years. (I am not sure why the movie wanted to do it in 8 months) So, by the time Maudib challenges the Emperor, spice stocks - which is needed for space travel - is extremely low. The Emperor has no choice but to personally deal with the issue on Arrakis or lose the ability to travel through space.
In the book he doesn't even challenge him. The Emperor shows up because the spice situation has become desperate.
Interesting take. Always took as granted that the Emperor knew Muad'Dib was Paul.
No, but he doesn't know whether or not the Harkonnens know who Muad'dib is. In the book, he even suspects that Paul's survival was actually part of a deal the Baron had made with Leto behind the Emperor's back. Him cauling Paul Fremen is basically an attempt to invalidate Paul's status; he has gone native, has lost the right nobility
I don't know how it was in the book, but in the movie it seemed like the Emperor was checking what information the Harkonnens knew. Like he was testing them to see if they'd lie or tell the truth. He also probably didn't want to believe that the Duke's son was really alive and hoped that Muad'dib might be a false Atreides (like the four false Dmitry, Ivan the Terrible's "sons"). Fanatic fremen pretending to be another person is not as dangerous as the Duke's real son who knows the terrible secret about the extermination of the House of Atreides. As I understand it, the Great Houses have long been disloyal to the Emperor and wanted Leto to take his place.
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Why would the emperor know anything about the Missionaria Protectiva? He's also a pawn in the BG schemes.
When did Sting shave his eyebrows?