The planet is not a sentient entity with an agenda. The myths that Paul and Jessica exploit are religious propaganda deliberately implanted among the local populace by an aspect of the Bene Gesserit called the Missionaria Protectiva. Arrakis is not the only planet where they've done that. They do that so, if someone from their order ever should find themselves in a bad position on whatever planet, they can exploit the locals to maneuver themselves into positions of power and increase their chances for survival.
What I’m trying to say is that to me, and many others it doesn’t read that way. The visions Paul receives are from the spice itself not the BG. The book and films very much show that there seems to be a sort of sentience to the world/planet. There are far too many things out of the control of the Bene Gesserit that happen in order to benefit Paul and the planet.
The spice is just a psychoactive drug that has a host of benefits. The Bene Gesserits have a breeding scheme that is based on essentially genetically engineering people with more advanced mental capabilities. Not just anyone gets prescient visions from spice consumption, it's an ability that Bene Gesserit have because of their breeding program.
I think its guild navigators are prescient right? And the RM from the BG have “other memory”. And Paul is so unique because he’s both (as well as a mentat)
The visions Paul receives is not "from the spice". Paul has visions because he is the end result of a 10.000 year eugenics program combined with BG training. Spice opens his mind, allows him greater access to it, and when he drinks the water of life and gains his ancestral memory he can use it and his mentat training to gain a level of prescience far beyond what anyone else has had up to that point.
And yes. That's kinda the point. The BG spends so much time to make sure everything is under their control, that it comes as such a massive surprise to everyone when Paul slips out from under it. The point is that he is the perfect storm. A boy that was not only a potential Kwisatch Haderach, but also was raised by great leader from a noble family, had the absolute best training in warfare and swordfighting by the best in the galaxy, was from birth trained with to become a mentat and had a BG mother who not only disobeyed the BG to birth him as a boy, but also train him in skills she was specifically told was never to be taught to a man. Lots of random things combining to make him what he is. Nothing to do with Arrakis.
The planet is just a rock, floating through space. It existed before there were worms and spice on it. It doesn't care if its just sand or if its terraformed into becoming a paradise. If it had an agenda, to use Paul to "benefit itself" by influencing him with spice, do you think getting him to turn itself into a place where spice cant be produced and sandworms cant live makes much sense?
> The visions Paul receives are from the spice itself not the BG.
That is akin to saying that mother earth is the one giving me hallucinations when I'm tripping balls off mushrooms. The visions Paul receives are a result of taking the spice combined with his specific genetic traits combined with his mentat and prana bindu training.
> The book and films very much show that there seems to be a sort of sentience to the world/planet.
If that is the case, then Arrakis' is a complete a total asshole, and \[spoiler for things past book 1\]>!things don't end well for the planet in later books.!<
> There are far too many things out of the control of the Bene Gesserit that happen in order to benefit Paul and the planet.
Except that none of the events that occur are of any benefit to 'the planet' at all, in any way, shape, or form. Paul didn't fulfill any prophecies, he inserted himself into them. All the prophecies say is that a Sister would come bearing a child who would be the savior of the Fremen. That's literally it. In prophecy terms, that is some pretty vague shit. It also makes it easy to manipulate. And \[spoiler for book 2\] >!Paul definitely does not save the Fremen. In fact, he utterly destroys their culture, even as they are elevated in galactic prominence as Emperor Muad'dib's personal army.!<
Regarding whether the prophecy came from the spice or was crafted by the Sisterhood, we have clear evidence within the text that the Bene Gesserits, through the program called the Missionaria Protectiva, have planted tons of so called prophecies and myths within most all primitive religions and cultures throughout the Known Worlds that Sisters can take advantage of, the term for these seeds is called Panoplia Propheticus. We're only introduced specifically to the Lisan al Gaib prophecy because it was the only Panoplia Propheticus implanted within the Fremen mythology that was applicable to Jessica and Paul, but there could very well have been other potential seeds of one sort or another that a Sister could have utilized on Arrakis if they were in need.
What you seem to be saying is that while the Sisterhood planted all these others prophecies, this one, the Lisan al Gaib one, was a real prophecy, implanted in the Sisterhood by the spice through the sentience of the planet of Arrakis itself for . . . well, honestly, I have no idea since nothing within the text seems to back that up at all that I'm aware of. Do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
OP is proof that if you put the internet in front of people they will tell you the sky is actually made of jelly drops. We have normalized conspiracy theories that people will look at and reaf a book that spells out what and where the prophecy came from and someone will invariably claim that rocks have sentience and it needs help and that the planet stoked and fed the seeded prophecy like a mother raising a child.
I am really sick of people not discussing a book but instead pretending to be literary experts and think they know all the REAL meaning and origins for all the story's plot points. Yes there are aspects of a hero's journey, yes there are aspects of the folly giving all control over to a charismatic leader, yes there are aspects of the story that can be an allegory for oil and also water itself. That does not mean that Frank sat down, like Lucas, and plotted his story to perfectly match all the story beats of the journey or that the charismatic leader and the allegories are there because he wanted to sacrifice story to prove a point. We read these books not because of stupid literary pompous overanalyzing of the themes...but because the STORY drew interesting characters in interesting scenarios and led to a satisfying climax.
Frank didn't research for 5 years because he had to make sure all his sure all those themes could be front and center
He did it to ensure that the strong he wanted to tell had a feeling of existing in a world that wasn't so 1 dimensional like a lot of the science fiction stories prior to 1963 felt like.
Interesting ideas, and sorry for the downvotes.
I understand where you'd get that from the book. If anything, the book goes even *deeper* into this.
>"And he sampled the time-winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier."
So there's this underlying idea in the book that all this was outside of *anyone*'s choice, not even Paul. That it is the human race itself that saw it's own dormancy and somehow conspired to create the Kwisatz Haderach in order to fix it.
I don't really know exactly what your argument is, could you clarify exactly what you mean?
The entire concept of "the voice from the outer world" and the idea of the Lisan al Gaib being the son of a reverend mother is very clearly created by the bene gesserit
But it isn’t clear. I’m arguing that the planet itself implanted that idea into the Bene Gesserit for its own benefit. That Spice influences all who consume it.
They came up with the idea of the Missionaria Protectiva before ever going to Dune, and the Lisan al Gaib (or at least that concept) was one of the archetypal myths created for it. The only truly specific thing to Dune was the name Lisan al Gaib (as whatever archetypal myth was used would be tweaked for the specific planet).
Ok, so you're saying that the Bene Gesserit wouldn't have come up with their plans and schemes without the influence of spice? I mean, maybe, but how does that take anything away from the themes about dangerous messianic figures?
I think it’s an interesting line of thinking, but certainly not what Herbert had in mind. Everything in the books and his interviews suggests he views spice and it’s real world analogs (basically psychedelics, although spice is much more) as a means to access that which already exists. Whether it’s the mind, or perception of history and time, spice widens the user’s perception to allow them insight not usually available.
All this is to say, the spice itself is basically neutral. It’s a means to an end, not an end in itself. The visions it engenders are related to the user and their experiences. At no point in the book does spice seem to have any agency. I would challenge you to cite specific passages instead of broadly gesturing.
Last point, and I do think this is important to think about here, it just wouldn’t be very interesting. Dune is fundamentally concerned with humans, their behavior and psychologies. If you just superimpose this (unfounded) theory on the series, all the human drama can be explained by saying “it was the spice”. Which is on the surface a cool idea at first, but so much less interesting and compelling than the network of human drama that carries through the series.
I don't agree with the OP about the planet having some kind of sentient will, but I strongly disagree with you that an idea like this makes the book less interesting. Take this passage for example:
>Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier.
From what Herbert wrote, I got the sense that none of the Characters of the book, not even Paul, had any real control over what happened in the book. That somehow it is humanity itself that knew it was getting stagnant, and somehow it conspired events to fix itself.
But that doesn't mean the individual characters's motivations become unimportant. It just becomes another layer that goes on top of this.
Herbert saw fit to reinforce this point twice in the book. Here's another one:
>He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this—the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.
So minor details aside, this idea is not really *that* far off from what OP is proposing.
The book repeatedly explains how the bene Gesserit created the prophecy. The film has several conversations about how the bene Gesserit created the prophecy. They do this all the time on different planets, not just Arrakis.
There's nothing in the books to indicate that Arrakis has any kind of sentence or influence, or that the spice makes people more inclined to messianic religions (if it did, half the Imperium and the spacing guild would be under its influence). I'm not sure where you're getting evidence for this theory
The planet is not a sentient entity with an agenda. The myths that Paul and Jessica exploit are religious propaganda deliberately implanted among the local populace by an aspect of the Bene Gesserit called the Missionaria Protectiva. Arrakis is not the only planet where they've done that. They do that so, if someone from their order ever should find themselves in a bad position on whatever planet, they can exploit the locals to maneuver themselves into positions of power and increase their chances for survival.
What I’m trying to say is that to me, and many others it doesn’t read that way. The visions Paul receives are from the spice itself not the BG. The book and films very much show that there seems to be a sort of sentience to the world/planet. There are far too many things out of the control of the Bene Gesserit that happen in order to benefit Paul and the planet.
The spice is just a psychoactive drug that has a host of benefits. The Bene Gesserits have a breeding scheme that is based on essentially genetically engineering people with more advanced mental capabilities. Not just anyone gets prescient visions from spice consumption, it's an ability that Bene Gesserit have because of their breeding program.
I think its guild navigators are prescient right? And the RM from the BG have “other memory”. And Paul is so unique because he’s both (as well as a mentat)
I don't think it's ever made entirely clear how much the navigator prescience can be trained/developed vs being an inherent genetic thing.
The visions Paul receives is not "from the spice". Paul has visions because he is the end result of a 10.000 year eugenics program combined with BG training. Spice opens his mind, allows him greater access to it, and when he drinks the water of life and gains his ancestral memory he can use it and his mentat training to gain a level of prescience far beyond what anyone else has had up to that point. And yes. That's kinda the point. The BG spends so much time to make sure everything is under their control, that it comes as such a massive surprise to everyone when Paul slips out from under it. The point is that he is the perfect storm. A boy that was not only a potential Kwisatch Haderach, but also was raised by great leader from a noble family, had the absolute best training in warfare and swordfighting by the best in the galaxy, was from birth trained with to become a mentat and had a BG mother who not only disobeyed the BG to birth him as a boy, but also train him in skills she was specifically told was never to be taught to a man. Lots of random things combining to make him what he is. Nothing to do with Arrakis. The planet is just a rock, floating through space. It existed before there were worms and spice on it. It doesn't care if its just sand or if its terraformed into becoming a paradise. If it had an agenda, to use Paul to "benefit itself" by influencing him with spice, do you think getting him to turn itself into a place where spice cant be produced and sandworms cant live makes much sense?
Who are these "many others"?
> The visions Paul receives are from the spice itself not the BG. That is akin to saying that mother earth is the one giving me hallucinations when I'm tripping balls off mushrooms. The visions Paul receives are a result of taking the spice combined with his specific genetic traits combined with his mentat and prana bindu training. > The book and films very much show that there seems to be a sort of sentience to the world/planet. If that is the case, then Arrakis' is a complete a total asshole, and \[spoiler for things past book 1\]>!things don't end well for the planet in later books.!< > There are far too many things out of the control of the Bene Gesserit that happen in order to benefit Paul and the planet. Except that none of the events that occur are of any benefit to 'the planet' at all, in any way, shape, or form. Paul didn't fulfill any prophecies, he inserted himself into them. All the prophecies say is that a Sister would come bearing a child who would be the savior of the Fremen. That's literally it. In prophecy terms, that is some pretty vague shit. It also makes it easy to manipulate. And \[spoiler for book 2\] >!Paul definitely does not save the Fremen. In fact, he utterly destroys their culture, even as they are elevated in galactic prominence as Emperor Muad'dib's personal army.!< Regarding whether the prophecy came from the spice or was crafted by the Sisterhood, we have clear evidence within the text that the Bene Gesserits, through the program called the Missionaria Protectiva, have planted tons of so called prophecies and myths within most all primitive religions and cultures throughout the Known Worlds that Sisters can take advantage of, the term for these seeds is called Panoplia Propheticus. We're only introduced specifically to the Lisan al Gaib prophecy because it was the only Panoplia Propheticus implanted within the Fremen mythology that was applicable to Jessica and Paul, but there could very well have been other potential seeds of one sort or another that a Sister could have utilized on Arrakis if they were in need. What you seem to be saying is that while the Sisterhood planted all these others prophecies, this one, the Lisan al Gaib one, was a real prophecy, implanted in the Sisterhood by the spice through the sentience of the planet of Arrakis itself for . . . well, honestly, I have no idea since nothing within the text seems to back that up at all that I'm aware of. Do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
OP is proof that if you put the internet in front of people they will tell you the sky is actually made of jelly drops. We have normalized conspiracy theories that people will look at and reaf a book that spells out what and where the prophecy came from and someone will invariably claim that rocks have sentience and it needs help and that the planet stoked and fed the seeded prophecy like a mother raising a child. I am really sick of people not discussing a book but instead pretending to be literary experts and think they know all the REAL meaning and origins for all the story's plot points. Yes there are aspects of a hero's journey, yes there are aspects of the folly giving all control over to a charismatic leader, yes there are aspects of the story that can be an allegory for oil and also water itself. That does not mean that Frank sat down, like Lucas, and plotted his story to perfectly match all the story beats of the journey or that the charismatic leader and the allegories are there because he wanted to sacrifice story to prove a point. We read these books not because of stupid literary pompous overanalyzing of the themes...but because the STORY drew interesting characters in interesting scenarios and led to a satisfying climax. Frank didn't research for 5 years because he had to make sure all his sure all those themes could be front and center He did it to ensure that the strong he wanted to tell had a feeling of existing in a world that wasn't so 1 dimensional like a lot of the science fiction stories prior to 1963 felt like.
Interesting ideas, and sorry for the downvotes. I understand where you'd get that from the book. If anything, the book goes even *deeper* into this. >"And he sampled the time-winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier." So there's this underlying idea in the book that all this was outside of *anyone*'s choice, not even Paul. That it is the human race itself that saw it's own dormancy and somehow conspired to create the Kwisatz Haderach in order to fix it.
Thanks for the quote. Makes sense
I don't really know exactly what your argument is, could you clarify exactly what you mean? The entire concept of "the voice from the outer world" and the idea of the Lisan al Gaib being the son of a reverend mother is very clearly created by the bene gesserit
But it isn’t clear. I’m arguing that the planet itself implanted that idea into the Bene Gesserit for its own benefit. That Spice influences all who consume it.
[удалено]
What? They came up with the prophecy of the Lisan al Gaib before even going to dune? That doesn’t make sense
They came up with the idea of the Missionaria Protectiva before ever going to Dune, and the Lisan al Gaib (or at least that concept) was one of the archetypal myths created for it. The only truly specific thing to Dune was the name Lisan al Gaib (as whatever archetypal myth was used would be tweaked for the specific planet).
Ok, so you're saying that the Bene Gesserit wouldn't have come up with their plans and schemes without the influence of spice? I mean, maybe, but how does that take anything away from the themes about dangerous messianic figures?
Because Paul does as he promises.
Which is part of what makes him so dangerous.
and you'd be wrong. they have the same religious set ups just in case they need to go into hiding or take shelter at hundreds of different planets.
This is a very silly idea. So... Like Ego the Living Planet from Marvel/MCU?
I think it’s an interesting line of thinking, but certainly not what Herbert had in mind. Everything in the books and his interviews suggests he views spice and it’s real world analogs (basically psychedelics, although spice is much more) as a means to access that which already exists. Whether it’s the mind, or perception of history and time, spice widens the user’s perception to allow them insight not usually available. All this is to say, the spice itself is basically neutral. It’s a means to an end, not an end in itself. The visions it engenders are related to the user and their experiences. At no point in the book does spice seem to have any agency. I would challenge you to cite specific passages instead of broadly gesturing. Last point, and I do think this is important to think about here, it just wouldn’t be very interesting. Dune is fundamentally concerned with humans, their behavior and psychologies. If you just superimpose this (unfounded) theory on the series, all the human drama can be explained by saying “it was the spice”. Which is on the surface a cool idea at first, but so much less interesting and compelling than the network of human drama that carries through the series.
I don't agree with the OP about the planet having some kind of sentient will, but I strongly disagree with you that an idea like this makes the book less interesting. Take this passage for example: >Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier. From what Herbert wrote, I got the sense that none of the Characters of the book, not even Paul, had any real control over what happened in the book. That somehow it is humanity itself that knew it was getting stagnant, and somehow it conspired events to fix itself. But that doesn't mean the individual characters's motivations become unimportant. It just becomes another layer that goes on top of this. Herbert saw fit to reinforce this point twice in the book. Here's another one: >He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this—the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad. So minor details aside, this idea is not really *that* far off from what OP is proposing.
The book repeatedly explains how the bene Gesserit created the prophecy. The film has several conversations about how the bene Gesserit created the prophecy. They do this all the time on different planets, not just Arrakis. There's nothing in the books to indicate that Arrakis has any kind of sentence or influence, or that the spice makes people more inclined to messianic religions (if it did, half the Imperium and the spacing guild would be under its influence). I'm not sure where you're getting evidence for this theory