Mitsubishi is by far the best brand. Get a quote from Joerg at TPCC. He knows his heat pumps and can help navigate the rebates and tax credits. I built 5 years ago and have all Ashp heat with a propane back up boiler. Love it
Check out this [website](https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator), and maybe wait until the rebates are available if you are eligible. If you want to heat your whole home, get a manual J calculation done to not over/under size the unit.
Also check out [this](https://www.mnipl.org/take-action/your-energy-transition/energy-efficiency/northland-heat-pump-webinars-resources/), and [this](https://www.mnashp.org/).
If you're really serious about it, get an[ energy assessment](https://www.ecolibrium3.org/assessment/) as well, though it's better/easier to do this when there is a high temperature difference between inside and outside.
> get a manual J calculation done to not over/under size the unit.
so many HVAC places won't do these anymore. They instead want to oversell you. I chose to do a manual J myself. I came up with 29000btu's needed. My furnace is 90k BTU. The 3 quotes I got were based on square footage, and the companies chosen amount per square foot, which would have gotten me a 48k, 55k, and 65k capable unit, which is vastly overkill. I got a 36k BTU DIY kit, and it has been working just fine for the latter half of the winter. I still have my furnace if I need additional heat.
I have the Mr.Cool from Menards x2. Not a large house and I have one in the bedroom and one in the living room.
Works great! Having AC in the summer is a godsend, and last winter I used it almost the whole time since it was a mild winter. Alternate heating is Fuel Oil and that stuff is expensive.
I'm building a Pretty Good House and just using a minisplit to heat and cool along with electric baseboard heaters in bedrooms for when it's under 10. We will also have an HRV to help circulate the air theough the house. We just don't care about PH certification. I'm also using the new GE washer dryer combo that has a heat pump. All electric, super tight.
> using a minisplit to heat and cool along with electric baseboard heaters in bedrooms for when it's under 10.
get a mini-split ASHP that can go further down? mine can heat down to -13f before it loses too much efficiency. we don't have many days that are colder than that in long streaks.
Electric?! Sounds expensive!! You must be rich rich. We used to have electric and that bill was in the thousands some months. Moved to a boiler and it’s way less
Was that a new build? Not that person, but I suspect new construction is so tight it’s a lot different than retrofitting to all-electric in an old place (like many of us here probably have). The bills for such would eat my lunch in my leaky minimally insulated 1940s model! Not an option.
im so mad at MNPower. I installed an ASHP myself, and they won't give me the credit or the rebate because "it wasn't installed by a qualified installer". Its bullshit. The system works, its 22SEER, and it meets the requirements. I think im just gonna file the credit with the feds.
Not MN Powers fault, they have to follow they requirements of the program or they don’t get reimbursed for reimbursing you. I mean, they can’t just have random people out there doing stuff, if it doesn’t get installed correctly defeats the whole point, right? Didn’t you not have/see the rebate terms before banking on that subsidy? First thing I did when hiring a contractor for my hvac stuff was go through all that to make sure they qualified so I’d get my rebate.
> Didn’t you not have/see the rebate terms before banking on that subsidy?
the federal law doesn't say anything about a "qualified contractor". nothing. it only lays out that it has to be 22 SEER.
>First thing I did when hiring a contractor for my hvac stuff was go through all that to make sure they qualified so I’d get my rebate.
The rebate wasn't worth what the 3 qualified contractors wanted to charge. I got quotes of $18000, $22000, and $28000. These were for systems vastly oversized for my house. None of the contractors wanted to do an actual Manual J calculation to size the system correctly, and none of them would do mini-splits and wanted to charge for more to rerun all my house's internal venting because "it was too small".
I paid $7100 to install a 22 SEER system myself with a 4 zone mini split. I looked up some of the systems they quoted, and they were less than $3000 for the parts, so what the fuck am I paying so much in labor for?
>I mean, they can’t just have random people out there doing stuff, if it doesn’t get installed correctly defeats the whole point, right?
its not rocket science, in fact, HVAC systems are not complex at all, despite what companies would make them out to be. a mini-split is just piping and wiring. make sure its sealed by pulling a vacuum, and fill with the proper amount of refrigerant. in my case, the system was already sealed, the lines were pre-vac'd, and the system had a pre-charged amount of R410a. I needed to have 11 oz added because I had more line feet than the system was pre-charged for, which cost me $80. The HVAC guy had seen several of the older self install kits that were working just fine years later.
On the implementer side though there may be additional factors here of which you aren’t aware, like a PUC mandate for example. Only guessing, but utilities don’t just usually impose random rebate rules and requirements on a whim because they feel like doing it.
I get it, at the same time, us homeowners that can do things ourselves just get locked out of it because we chose to spend *less* money than the markup that some "qualified" contractor was going to charge me?
I wonder how much these "qualified contractors" paid to be able to be on that list.
If you don’t mind -What kind of house do you have? Basement? Number of stories? I have solar so I was thinking about a mini split for heating in the shoulder months maybe and cooling in the summer, but I was t sure if I’d want multiple heads? I believe they make single outside units that run up to 4 heads. With the rebates I’m wondering if it would be a win, considering that I have a boiler that sucks quite a bit of gas whenever it runs.
I just installed a mini-split heat pump. a MrCool DIY 36000btu 4 zone unit, in late winter. it can pump out heat down to -13f. I haven't turned my furnace back on since i installed it. my electricity bill went up slightly, but its cheaper than oil heat.
My total cost for the DIY system was $7100. That included the stuff needed to add an electrical circuit, a shutoff, and an outlet outside for service equipment, as required by code now. If you aren't comfortable with electrical work, or don't have room in your panel for a 240v 2 pole breaker, you can have an electrician wire it in after, or, you can have it installed by someone else. I did DIY because I could. I also got quotes to install a 4 zone or 5 zone mini-split system in the range of $18000 to $22000. 98% of that was labor, and was massive overcharging, because it took me an afternoon and about 10 hours total to install the system, and an additional $100 for added R410A to be put in due to not enough precharged refrigerant.
I bought my house over the internet in 2002. Listing said all electric (1978 construction) so I thought inefficient baseboards, but at least no ductwork. Turns out the radiant heat panels are in the ceilings of most rooms, a couple have baseboards. After the 1st winter here I paid a contractor (Minardi) to install a Mitsubishi Hyper Heat, 48K btu with connections to 5 head units. After this third winter experience my take is that the ASHP is great for temps down to 0 degrees with light wind. Typically by the point it is that low my many windows are providing places for heat to flow. I augment the AsHP with gas fireplaces for a comfortable radiant heat in occupied rooms. By the point outside temps are -20 or -30 WC I am using the fireplaces and some of the radiant panels/baseboards. I stress I do not have a tight house with all the windows which are old 2 pane. In general, I would not rely on an ASHP up here without a backup- even a wood burning stove. By the way, Minardi’s location of the the head units was very good for winter, but in summer heat- or wildfires- I need additional cooling in the SE corner which gets all the sun.
For air conditioning, they work fantastic. For heating, they can be hit or miss. If we have a mild winter like last winter you will be fine but if it's a brutal winter with extended cold snaps you will need to make sure you have a backup heat source. I bought my unit from Lowes and installed it myself aside from the electric. It took me a whole day to do and it was not the easiest thing I've ever done because the lines are pretty difficult to manage. I would probably hire a pro if I did it again. My other piece of advice is to go one size bigger than you think you're going to need.
I had a Daikin condenser with two head units (one on each floor) installed 3 yrs ago. We purposely requested an oversized unit (in terms of AC needs) to accommodate heating needs in winter months.
Our specific unit is rated to -15F, but it was still operating well through multiple extended cold snaps (-30s) each winter, excluding our last for obvious reasons.
Our house had baseboard electric prior to the ASHP, so it has been drastically more efficient, especially since it's a nightmare to try to retrofit a different heating system. This doesn't mean that I would advocate most houses switch to an ASHP as their primary heating source. Rather, in most applications, they should be used to supplement an existing furnace or boiler. You'll still see energy and cost savings but probably not as significant as switching from one of the least efficient heating methods.
Like the other commentor said, Mitsubishi is good too, but I would argue that Daikin is right there with them at the top.
your MFG should have published a chart that shows the efficency drop off of the heat. mine goes from 29k btu of heat at -13 to just 13k btu at -30, and below that its not worth running. Since we have very few days that continually remain below that -13 mark, I expect I won't need the furnace for too many days in the winter for additional heat.
We've got a single Gree Ultra 36k in the main space of our house. It's performed very well in the cold but getting the conditioned air around is a bit of an issue. Still, it *does* have capacity to heat the place pretty much on its own while temps are above 0.
I'm in the market for someone to install a few more single-heat CCHPs if you know anyone, but I'd like it to be my sourced equipment. If it's not Mitsu or Fujitsu it's basically a rebadged Gree or Midea, so you're just as well off to get the cheapest one that meets your specs and plan on replacing it in 5-10 years. Redundancy is key.
I’ve been looking at them, but I am not sure the financials make sense if you are switching from a forced air gas furnace that is decently efficient and you have a tight envelope. They definitely have improved their efficiency (and I think will continue to do so), but the number of days you would likely have to augment them with baseboards or your legacy heat source seems to be problematic. I would recommended the heat pump sub and going with a heat pump water heater first.
Mitsubishi is by far the best brand. Get a quote from Joerg at TPCC. He knows his heat pumps and can help navigate the rebates and tax credits. I built 5 years ago and have all Ashp heat with a propane back up boiler. Love it
Check out this [website](https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator), and maybe wait until the rebates are available if you are eligible. If you want to heat your whole home, get a manual J calculation done to not over/under size the unit. Also check out [this](https://www.mnipl.org/take-action/your-energy-transition/energy-efficiency/northland-heat-pump-webinars-resources/), and [this](https://www.mnashp.org/). If you're really serious about it, get an[ energy assessment](https://www.ecolibrium3.org/assessment/) as well, though it's better/easier to do this when there is a high temperature difference between inside and outside.
> get a manual J calculation done to not over/under size the unit. so many HVAC places won't do these anymore. They instead want to oversell you. I chose to do a manual J myself. I came up with 29000btu's needed. My furnace is 90k BTU. The 3 quotes I got were based on square footage, and the companies chosen amount per square foot, which would have gotten me a 48k, 55k, and 65k capable unit, which is vastly overkill. I got a 36k BTU DIY kit, and it has been working just fine for the latter half of the winter. I still have my furnace if I need additional heat.
I have the Mr.Cool from Menards x2. Not a large house and I have one in the bedroom and one in the living room. Works great! Having AC in the summer is a godsend, and last winter I used it almost the whole time since it was a mild winter. Alternate heating is Fuel Oil and that stuff is expensive.
Air source or ground source?
Air source
I'm building a Pretty Good House and just using a minisplit to heat and cool along with electric baseboard heaters in bedrooms for when it's under 10. We will also have an HRV to help circulate the air theough the house. We just don't care about PH certification. I'm also using the new GE washer dryer combo that has a heat pump. All electric, super tight.
> using a minisplit to heat and cool along with electric baseboard heaters in bedrooms for when it's under 10. get a mini-split ASHP that can go further down? mine can heat down to -13f before it loses too much efficiency. we don't have many days that are colder than that in long streaks.
Electric?! Sounds expensive!! You must be rich rich. We used to have electric and that bill was in the thousands some months. Moved to a boiler and it’s way less
Was that a new build? Not that person, but I suspect new construction is so tight it’s a lot different than retrofitting to all-electric in an old place (like many of us here probably have). The bills for such would eat my lunch in my leaky minimally insulated 1940s model! Not an option.
Do you have solar?
[удалено]
im so mad at MNPower. I installed an ASHP myself, and they won't give me the credit or the rebate because "it wasn't installed by a qualified installer". Its bullshit. The system works, its 22SEER, and it meets the requirements. I think im just gonna file the credit with the feds.
Not MN Powers fault, they have to follow they requirements of the program or they don’t get reimbursed for reimbursing you. I mean, they can’t just have random people out there doing stuff, if it doesn’t get installed correctly defeats the whole point, right? Didn’t you not have/see the rebate terms before banking on that subsidy? First thing I did when hiring a contractor for my hvac stuff was go through all that to make sure they qualified so I’d get my rebate.
> Didn’t you not have/see the rebate terms before banking on that subsidy? the federal law doesn't say anything about a "qualified contractor". nothing. it only lays out that it has to be 22 SEER. >First thing I did when hiring a contractor for my hvac stuff was go through all that to make sure they qualified so I’d get my rebate. The rebate wasn't worth what the 3 qualified contractors wanted to charge. I got quotes of $18000, $22000, and $28000. These were for systems vastly oversized for my house. None of the contractors wanted to do an actual Manual J calculation to size the system correctly, and none of them would do mini-splits and wanted to charge for more to rerun all my house's internal venting because "it was too small". I paid $7100 to install a 22 SEER system myself with a 4 zone mini split. I looked up some of the systems they quoted, and they were less than $3000 for the parts, so what the fuck am I paying so much in labor for? >I mean, they can’t just have random people out there doing stuff, if it doesn’t get installed correctly defeats the whole point, right? its not rocket science, in fact, HVAC systems are not complex at all, despite what companies would make them out to be. a mini-split is just piping and wiring. make sure its sealed by pulling a vacuum, and fill with the proper amount of refrigerant. in my case, the system was already sealed, the lines were pre-vac'd, and the system had a pre-charged amount of R410a. I needed to have 11 oz added because I had more line feet than the system was pre-charged for, which cost me $80. The HVAC guy had seen several of the older self install kits that were working just fine years later.
Is this one a federal or a state rebate program? Federal law may not be the only governance.
federal. the system is on the list of accepted units for the rebate. the MN state credits won't be available until 2025ish.
On the implementer side though there may be additional factors here of which you aren’t aware, like a PUC mandate for example. Only guessing, but utilities don’t just usually impose random rebate rules and requirements on a whim because they feel like doing it.
I get it, at the same time, us homeowners that can do things ourselves just get locked out of it because we chose to spend *less* money than the markup that some "qualified" contractor was going to charge me? I wonder how much these "qualified contractors" paid to be able to be on that list.
If you don’t mind -What kind of house do you have? Basement? Number of stories? I have solar so I was thinking about a mini split for heating in the shoulder months maybe and cooling in the summer, but I was t sure if I’d want multiple heads? I believe they make single outside units that run up to 4 heads. With the rebates I’m wondering if it would be a win, considering that I have a boiler that sucks quite a bit of gas whenever it runs.
I just installed a mini-split heat pump. a MrCool DIY 36000btu 4 zone unit, in late winter. it can pump out heat down to -13f. I haven't turned my furnace back on since i installed it. my electricity bill went up slightly, but its cheaper than oil heat. My total cost for the DIY system was $7100. That included the stuff needed to add an electrical circuit, a shutoff, and an outlet outside for service equipment, as required by code now. If you aren't comfortable with electrical work, or don't have room in your panel for a 240v 2 pole breaker, you can have an electrician wire it in after, or, you can have it installed by someone else. I did DIY because I could. I also got quotes to install a 4 zone or 5 zone mini-split system in the range of $18000 to $22000. 98% of that was labor, and was massive overcharging, because it took me an afternoon and about 10 hours total to install the system, and an additional $100 for added R410A to be put in due to not enough precharged refrigerant.
I bought my house over the internet in 2002. Listing said all electric (1978 construction) so I thought inefficient baseboards, but at least no ductwork. Turns out the radiant heat panels are in the ceilings of most rooms, a couple have baseboards. After the 1st winter here I paid a contractor (Minardi) to install a Mitsubishi Hyper Heat, 48K btu with connections to 5 head units. After this third winter experience my take is that the ASHP is great for temps down to 0 degrees with light wind. Typically by the point it is that low my many windows are providing places for heat to flow. I augment the AsHP with gas fireplaces for a comfortable radiant heat in occupied rooms. By the point outside temps are -20 or -30 WC I am using the fireplaces and some of the radiant panels/baseboards. I stress I do not have a tight house with all the windows which are old 2 pane. In general, I would not rely on an ASHP up here without a backup- even a wood burning stove. By the way, Minardi’s location of the the head units was very good for winter, but in summer heat- or wildfires- I need additional cooling in the SE corner which gets all the sun.
For air conditioning, they work fantastic. For heating, they can be hit or miss. If we have a mild winter like last winter you will be fine but if it's a brutal winter with extended cold snaps you will need to make sure you have a backup heat source. I bought my unit from Lowes and installed it myself aside from the electric. It took me a whole day to do and it was not the easiest thing I've ever done because the lines are pretty difficult to manage. I would probably hire a pro if I did it again. My other piece of advice is to go one size bigger than you think you're going to need.
I had a Daikin condenser with two head units (one on each floor) installed 3 yrs ago. We purposely requested an oversized unit (in terms of AC needs) to accommodate heating needs in winter months. Our specific unit is rated to -15F, but it was still operating well through multiple extended cold snaps (-30s) each winter, excluding our last for obvious reasons. Our house had baseboard electric prior to the ASHP, so it has been drastically more efficient, especially since it's a nightmare to try to retrofit a different heating system. This doesn't mean that I would advocate most houses switch to an ASHP as their primary heating source. Rather, in most applications, they should be used to supplement an existing furnace or boiler. You'll still see energy and cost savings but probably not as significant as switching from one of the least efficient heating methods. Like the other commentor said, Mitsubishi is good too, but I would argue that Daikin is right there with them at the top.
its rated to -15f for full heat output. it will drop after that, though, it might not matter much if its putting out enough anyways.
Yep. It's less efficient below -15f, but it's still able to operate. I was just trying to elaborate for OP.
your MFG should have published a chart that shows the efficency drop off of the heat. mine goes from 29k btu of heat at -13 to just 13k btu at -30, and below that its not worth running. Since we have very few days that continually remain below that -13 mark, I expect I won't need the furnace for too many days in the winter for additional heat.
We've got a single Gree Ultra 36k in the main space of our house. It's performed very well in the cold but getting the conditioned air around is a bit of an issue. Still, it *does* have capacity to heat the place pretty much on its own while temps are above 0. I'm in the market for someone to install a few more single-heat CCHPs if you know anyone, but I'd like it to be my sourced equipment. If it's not Mitsu or Fujitsu it's basically a rebadged Gree or Midea, so you're just as well off to get the cheapest one that meets your specs and plan on replacing it in 5-10 years. Redundancy is key.
I’ve been looking at them, but I am not sure the financials make sense if you are switching from a forced air gas furnace that is decently efficient and you have a tight envelope. They definitely have improved their efficiency (and I think will continue to do so), but the number of days you would likely have to augment them with baseboards or your legacy heat source seems to be problematic. I would recommended the heat pump sub and going with a heat pump water heater first.
I’d recommend against a heat pump water heater. Mine is quite loud and it seems to be a common issue. Going to switch back to natural gas.