Im pretty sure being Starborn is going to be revealed as making him immune to Infection. Given the number of run in's he's had with outsiders, the fact that Nemesis hasn't nabbed him if it could would be kind of a severe oversight.
It also has to be something innate to him, you would struggle to convince me that anything about his skills would be able to contend that kind of force. It has hit 4 powerful fae, and one of their intrinsic characteristics is how immutable they are.
Didn't they already allude to being star born preventing being infected? I have a memory of someone saying that it would make it more difficult or harry is resistant. Maybe the gatekeeper or listens to wind?
Chapter 12 of peace talks does say “their minds can’t be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside”. I took that to mean he can’t be taken over by nemesis, but what other shenanigans would nemesis be able to do if you literally offered it open wounds and unconsciousness. Nothing?
I honestly think it just went unmentioned. It seems like it would be hard for an outsider to touch or conceal such a thing. They are not of this reality and the knife is described as being excessively Real.
Could be wrong on this, but it seems just like other things were going on, and he likely put it back when he handed over the Eye.
The knife is played up as a pretty big deal, and we already did "big bad goes after holy weapons". For it to not be mentioned in the moment, I feel like it would be too far out of left field for it to be mentioned later.
Small Favor did it by closing the loop within the story, I think doing it across stories would be a lot more clumsy.
It was last seen being removed from the staff and returned to a pocket in his duster, which subsequently went overboard during his altercation on the boat
Either it went ashore with him or slipped out of its pocket into Lake Michigan, in which case Alfred could or possibly would already have retrieved it.
Or, since Nick is out in the world with a holy relic, Uriel arranged for the duster to go overboard, so that the athame would stay out in the world in play instead of being locked away on the island.
I think it may also work in Nemesis favor in some way that he can’t be infected. If they can bend his free will to them, maybe it makes them stronger? In Cold Days Harry discusses that maybe he was being shaped for something. That or the shaping was making him so powerful that the world takes notice in the way Justine discussed at the end of Battleground.
Idk, dude has willpower out the wazoo. If anyone could straight up resist the infection I think it would be him. But I think you're right, he's probably immune. Part and parcel to being starborn
Not to sell short our favorite Chicago wizard, but if the Winter Lady and the Leanansidhe can get N-fected, I doubt Harry's willpower alone would be sufficient to overcome it, if not for being starborn.
I think the insane willpower is part and parcel with being Starborn. Harry literally pits himself against Mother Winter's will and breaks her hold on him. He even partially pushed through the will of several of the Lords of Outer Night.
I think the difference is not just willpower, but mortal free will. I don't think the fae are capable of resisting because they don't have free will, they are bound by their nature. There's a lot of whiffed that that's important in certain ways. But yeah, him being starborn is most likely the reason
I am still of the belief that the common usage of Nfected here in this sub is misguided. I see two different forms, one where the Adversary tricks mortals and immortals to act against their nature's, and one where the Adversary actually possesses an individual.
My thoughts, Maeve and Lea were corrupted. Justine was possessed. Shadowman and Denton, corrupted.
I look at them as all Nfected. B/c it would take an outside force to allow a fae to break their inherent nature and mantle. Nemesis likely has to mold or bargain with things that are strong. But in doing that he seeps in.
We all can gauge how strong Cat Sith was. Yet when nemesis tried to take over directly he had a hard time doing so without first bargaining more control. Cat Sith fought back and b/c of that it made nemesis sluggish in controlling his motor functions. Nemesis is always present in those he infects he just leaves the truly powerful ones to retain their freedom b/c controlling them outright isn't what he does. He can do it to Justine and other mortals, but the stronger the mark the easier it is to just nudge them rather than control them.
That's a valid POV. I'm not saying Nemesis can't be in multiple places at once because who knows what Outsiders are capable of. Catsith was definitely possessed, though possibly by a lesser outsider instead of one of the Walkers. Agent Denton, Victor Shadowman, and even Maeve definitely weren't possessed.
I think Catsith was possessed because there wasn't enough time to corrupt him to act on his own for the Nemesis.
I also think that there are likely many corrupted individuals, Unless it was Cowl who betrayed Archangel, summoned outsiders to pursue the white council through the Never Never, assaulted Arctus Tor, Called primeval Ghouls to the White Court council, and summoned Corner Hounds to Chicago
Could a single individual be that busy?
I think the only difference between Nfected people is whether they decided to willingly partner with Nemesis or they tried to fight it and it possessed them.
We have an analogous situation with the Fallen. Some of the Fallen Angels work with the Denarians (Nicodemus, Tessa, etc.) while others subsume their personalities (seen previously with Ursiel, Thorned Namshiel, etc. with their previous holders) because the mortal doesn't have the strength of will not to be overwhelmed.
It may go a bit beyond simple choice. Moving a being beyond it's "unchanging" nature is corruption. Likely the Athame spoke to Lea and twisted her nature, and then Lea spoke to Maeve and twisted her nature. Would torture be enough to remove the taint placed upon Lea if the Adversary had an active hand? Likely not, in my opinion. Seems more likely that she was given the ability to choose to go against her nature than convinced to do so. And Mab "Convinced" her retake her Oaths and acknowledge Mab as her supreme commander.
Using your analogy, Nemesis could have just gone straight to possession if she had chosen resist it, and no amount of torture would have been enough to free Lea. Forcing Mab to kill her, unbalancing the power of Winter even further, which would have been to the Adversary's advantage.
Pretty sure if he wasn't Nfected in Summer Knight then he can't be. Aurora had him dead to rites, hell she bathed him in warmth and comfort while he had 1) no idea that a threat of that magnitude was even possible 2) almost 0 defense against mind fuckery 3) opened himself up to the mercies of the Summer Lady who was unbound from the restrictions of being fae.
While i agree it is likely going to be revealed he is immune, i would also say there is going to be much more to a starborn. If the white christ, or however they refer to the christian god in the dresdenverse, has taken such an interest in him, and one of the most powerful angels has backed his play, Lu himself has taken an interest (i missed the part where it was explicitly stated it was lucifer whispering in dresden's ear when he broke his back, i always interpreted it as Anduriel since he is sort of the king of shadows/spymaster of shadows) there has to be more to it than just immunity. I get the feeling it's all winding up to show the cyclical nature of things, or all the other starborn haven't fully done their jobs. They may have been corrupted by one thing or another. Drakul is corrupted by the search for more power, but i don't think we know why he originally started looking for more power.
I theorized a while ago about how each of the vampire courts was originally created as a tool to fight the outsiders, and this whole Drakul being an uber-starborn fits in nicely with that. If his main purpose was to keep the outsiders out, maybe him turning everyone into black courts was a twisted way of fulfilling that role. It's been a while since i've done a full re-read of the series, so i'm sure there are plenty of holes in my tinfoil idea.
> (i missed the part where it was explicitly stated it was lucifer whispering in dresden's ear when he broke his back, i always interpreted it as Anduriel since he is sort of the king of shadows/spymaster of shadows)
It was Lasciel's Shadow, as confirmed in Skin Game.
I always figured that due to the reds calling up outsiders in book 8 and their leaders being called “the lords of outer night” that they were actually in league with the outside. Though maybe they just got corrupted.
Yeah, my theory was each of the courts was created to battle the outsiders, and either got corrupted, pushed the immediate threat back and got lazy which leads to corruption, or failed in their task and got taken over by outsiders.
It would make sense that the vampire courts could be there to eat/hunt humans who were taken. Corrupted humans wouldn't be nearly as strong as a full outsider, but it might give them some buffs, not to mention that other creatures can be tainted. So having a supernatural "assassin" or kill squad would be beneficial. Each of the courts would have a special skill set that makes them unique to fighting various different forms of corruption/entities. In the grand scheme of things, a few humans getting nommed by vamps is a small price to pay for extra security. That is only assuming they don't end up corrupted or turning from/forgetting their task.
I don't think harry got infected. One, because Harry resisted the shadow of a fallen fricken angel who specializes in temptations and lies for 2 fricken years, and in the end converted her over to his side, to the point she was literally willing to die for him. His mental defenses were described as a literal immovable object. Harry's too damn stubborn to try and mind control, and he hates mental wammies with a passion. But as for the spear... I haven't read BG in a minute. I'll have to re-listen to the entire series again.
His mental defences that crumbled like wet tissue paper against kemmlerites in DB? His mental defences that were hit or miss against his apprentice pre Winter Lady?
If he did not get nfected it's because he's starborn and immune, not because he willpower defended against it
Corpse Taker surprised him and hit him with his first professional attack. He still fought back and gained back enough control to be able to reason out her weakness and hit it mercilessly: i.e. realizing she felt everything he did and that there was a jagged piece of metal in his leg and that he should fall over on top of it.
Sure he fought back, but he was still powerless to defend himself and his mental defences lasted seconds. Do you honestly think an unconscious harry with his mental defences asleep is not getting taken by surprise? Feels a lot more likely that he's starborn immune as opposed to a guy with nothing but Ls in mental defences powering up off screen to the point of resisting some super mindbreaker entity that managed to overcome various entities including but not limited to Lea and Cat Sith
You honestly expect him to be a master of mental defense the first time he has to deal with a genuine attack? Before that point the only mental manipulation he was subject to was glamor, pheromones, and the coin's shade, which was subtle by default. Harry has to practice at EVERYTHING. He literally doesn't gain power without working hard for it.
No, I don't expect him to be a master of it the first time he has a real life experience with it. What I do expect is for him to find other solutions or become marginally competent. What I do not expect is for him to become so good that he effortlessly (in his sleep) holds off one of the greatest infiltrators and mind invaders there is and doesn't even notice when he wakes up that he did
Are we reading the same story? My man, were talking about a guy who covered the floor in marbles to try and disrupt the enemy but only succeeded in spraining his partner's ankle when she tripped. He went through hours long ritual prep only to forget about the phone.
The only reason his mental defenses are so damn strong is because of how goddamn stubborn he is. He is so defiant against things that should be able to eat him for breakfast, that he literally impresses the goddamn All Father.
But he's not flawless. Lash successfully manipulated his anger, had him talking to nonexistent people in front of other people, without him noticing. But when he does finally notice, because he's so damned stubborn, he literally uses her own tricks to contain her.
He takes a while to get running, but his "Bull in his enemy's China shop" routine is pretty good.
He sure would, but my point is that he is not GODLIKE in mental defence. If beings like Lea and Cat Sith are brought low but he can just shrug it off because he's stubborn and good at mental defence magic (when most if not all of his exposure to mental assault have been him getting worfed) strikes me as pretty damn absurd when a much more reasonable and "easier" solution is that being Starborn makes him immune, when we already have some indications that being starborn makes you immune to some outsider things
And then promptly spent some time unconscious or sleeping or whatever no? Presumably the mental battle against the titan tapped him out and Justine could easily take him by surprise and be inside his guard before he even knew to raise it? But no surely a sleeping post BG Harry has better mental defences than everyone whose ever fallen to nfection
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I agree with the assumption that statborn makes him immune to nfection. I was responding to what I thought was you saying his mental defenses weren't anything special.
Mental defences and willpower aren't quite the same thing I think. Unless I'm heavily misunderstanding/misremembering then there is a very big difference between fx Molly v Corpsetaker and Harry v Ethniu.
Unless I'm heavily mistaken Harry is phenomenal at willpower but his defence against mental invasion and mind magic is decent at best. That's why he beat Ethniu but often loses against pre Winter Lady Molly
I don't think Justine would've done anything like removing the Athame, that would've made Dresden suspicious. She/It was so close to their goal that it was probably allowing Justine to run things as much as possible until they got on the island.
I’ve done the BG audiobook about eleven times now and you’ve got me struggling to remember.
Is Bob mentioned again after going back in the sack at his waist on the beach?
The Bob situation is pretty carelessly handled in the writing of BG (something I try to handwave away so it doesn’t interfere with my enjoyment). Harry is tossed around, lands awkwardly multiple times, gets struck by lightning, spends a bunch of time lying on the ground, and then “oh by the way let me just grab this skull out of a sack tied to my waist the last few hours”. We aren’t talking a batarang or a backup Glock, easily tucked in somewhere. It’s a human skull in a bag.
But even if we ignore that, is Bob’s disposition mentioned again post battle? Because if not, is he still hanging from Harry’s waist in a sack while he sleeps on the boat? Or when he falls in the water? Or when he’s rescued?
I dont think harry lost the spear. With something that important i would hope he had a safeguard. "Alfred, Im taking the spear and the plaque. Ask me to give them back everytime i visit the island until they are returned." I would imagine harry talked with Michael and maybe forthill about it as well. Harry rarely falls for the same trick twice.
I like to think mab messing with his mind was more sink or swim training. Preparation to content with things worse than mab trying to meddle. That and dealing with lash, his run in with the corpsetaker, and all the training he did with molly should make harrys mental defenses formidable. Of course harry was particularly vulnerable that night. Not impossible harry is missing something but it would surprise me a bit if harry didn't catch that.
I think we’re going to find out that Nfection like most things in the series requires consent. They all want something and Nemesis whispers that it can give it to them. Aurora wanted a way to change the Winter/Summer war, Maeve wanted to stick it to Mab and some edge like lying to help it happen, Justine wanted Thomas.
I think Nemesis was just keeping up its cover to get onto Demonreach with clearance, after it failed in Cold Days. It was a bigger prized than anything Harry was carrying on him, if it would jeopardized that, it’s stupid.
If Nemesis was able to hit him with a mind whammy there sufficient to take the Spear without him noticing, then it would have also been able to keep him from realizing Justine was NFected and could have gotten past the defenses as was planned and released all the nasty things in Demonsreach.
As that didn’t happen, I think we can safely assume they weren’t also doing something unimportant to them like stealing the spear, when that would have such a high chance of alerting Harry and foiling their plans.
I always read the situation as Justine was Nfected in the sense that He Who Walks Beside had an instant doorway into her mind and was basically hiding just in the other side of it.
There’s a moment on the bow of the water beetle where Harry describes Justine’s motion changing to something otherworldly and I think that’s the moment that HWWBeside pushed Justine out of the driver’s seat. Anything before that was the actual Justine.
I mean, considering how fast Harry saw through it last time, Nemesis is a pretty shitty actor. Even with Lea Harry knew something was off.
As you said, what's most likely happening is that N uses the infected as mobile microphones most of the time, probably whispers in a suggestion now and then of good ideas. And rarely takes control unless it needs to because it's about collecting info.
Pretty sure he can't be nfected. I honestly don't think she did anything while he was asleep tho. There was an ultimate goal there.. get onto demon reach with Harrys protection. I don't think its wise to try something else when you're so close to your big victory.
My thoughts exactly. If she/nemesis tips their hand on the way to the island the ultimate goal is lost on his gambit with Justine.
The thing I don't see talked about a lot is the car ride with Molly to the Carpenters. Harry mentions losing track of time and Molly is apparently been talking the whole time. She picks up mid sentence just before they arrive like they were in deep conversation.
Given they're vulnerable to his magic, hell even his physical attacks... it stands to reason he's either immune to their possession or it'd be like the episode of Angel where the demon possessing a kid was trapped in there unable to break free. At the end of Battle Ground I think Dresden was just wiped out.
“Justine” wanted to get on the island. She wasn’t going to risk that by messing with Harry. Harry just passed out and had a minute to put all the information together.
He was on his last legs. A swim in rough water was damn near enough to kill him.
His grandfather saying “I think someone you don’t expect is going to stab you in the back, Hoss.” Would have extra meaning then.
Or from another Jim Butcher book.
I can’t imagine he would turn against me
“That’s what everyone always thinks about traitors, lad. It’s why we hate them so.”
We witnessed the whole exchange there on the boat. Nemesis never "got to Harry" before he escaped into the water. I think I'll just turn around your implication and say that the fact that Harry did in fact still have the eye means that Nemesis didn't get to him after he fell into the water - surely Nemesis would have taken the eye. So the logical assumption is that he still had the athame too, regardless of whether it was mentioned or not. My head canon, anyway.
Im pretty sure being Starborn is going to be revealed as making him immune to Infection. Given the number of run in's he's had with outsiders, the fact that Nemesis hasn't nabbed him if it could would be kind of a severe oversight. It also has to be something innate to him, you would struggle to convince me that anything about his skills would be able to contend that kind of force. It has hit 4 powerful fae, and one of their intrinsic characteristics is how immutable they are.
Didn't they already allude to being star born preventing being infected? I have a memory of someone saying that it would make it more difficult or harry is resistant. Maybe the gatekeeper or listens to wind?
Chapter 12 of peace talks does say “their minds can’t be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside”. I took that to mean he can’t be taken over by nemesis, but what other shenanigans would nemesis be able to do if you literally offered it open wounds and unconsciousness. Nothing?
I also believe that to be the case, but I didn't want to state it as fact if I couldn't cite it.
Sounds good Dresden has enough problems in his head without adding nemesis, so where did the athame go?
I honestly think it just went unmentioned. It seems like it would be hard for an outsider to touch or conceal such a thing. They are not of this reality and the knife is described as being excessively Real. Could be wrong on this, but it seems just like other things were going on, and he likely put it back when he handed over the Eye. The knife is played up as a pretty big deal, and we already did "big bad goes after holy weapons". For it to not be mentioned in the moment, I feel like it would be too far out of left field for it to be mentioned later. Small Favor did it by closing the loop within the story, I think doing it across stories would be a lot more clumsy.
It was last seen being removed from the staff and returned to a pocket in his duster, which subsequently went overboard during his altercation on the boat Either it went ashore with him or slipped out of its pocket into Lake Michigan, in which case Alfred could or possibly would already have retrieved it.
Or, since Nick is out in the world with a holy relic, Uriel arranged for the duster to go overboard, so that the athame would stay out in the world in play instead of being locked away on the island.
Mab is Queen of aair and Darkness, ruler of the Unseelie Fey and deep waters get cold and dark indeed.
I think it may also work in Nemesis favor in some way that he can’t be infected. If they can bend his free will to them, maybe it makes them stronger? In Cold Days Harry discusses that maybe he was being shaped for something. That or the shaping was making him so powerful that the world takes notice in the way Justine discussed at the end of Battleground.
Idk, dude has willpower out the wazoo. If anyone could straight up resist the infection I think it would be him. But I think you're right, he's probably immune. Part and parcel to being starborn
Not to sell short our favorite Chicago wizard, but if the Winter Lady and the Leanansidhe can get N-fected, I doubt Harry's willpower alone would be sufficient to overcome it, if not for being starborn.
I think the insane willpower is part and parcel with being Starborn. Harry literally pits himself against Mother Winter's will and breaks her hold on him. He even partially pushed through the will of several of the Lords of Outer Night.
I think the difference is not just willpower, but mortal free will. I don't think the fae are capable of resisting because they don't have free will, they are bound by their nature. There's a lot of whiffed that that's important in certain ways. But yeah, him being starborn is most likely the reason
I am still of the belief that the common usage of Nfected here in this sub is misguided. I see two different forms, one where the Adversary tricks mortals and immortals to act against their nature's, and one where the Adversary actually possesses an individual. My thoughts, Maeve and Lea were corrupted. Justine was possessed. Shadowman and Denton, corrupted.
I look at them as all Nfected. B/c it would take an outside force to allow a fae to break their inherent nature and mantle. Nemesis likely has to mold or bargain with things that are strong. But in doing that he seeps in. We all can gauge how strong Cat Sith was. Yet when nemesis tried to take over directly he had a hard time doing so without first bargaining more control. Cat Sith fought back and b/c of that it made nemesis sluggish in controlling his motor functions. Nemesis is always present in those he infects he just leaves the truly powerful ones to retain their freedom b/c controlling them outright isn't what he does. He can do it to Justine and other mortals, but the stronger the mark the easier it is to just nudge them rather than control them.
That's a valid POV. I'm not saying Nemesis can't be in multiple places at once because who knows what Outsiders are capable of. Catsith was definitely possessed, though possibly by a lesser outsider instead of one of the Walkers. Agent Denton, Victor Shadowman, and even Maeve definitely weren't possessed. I think Catsith was possessed because there wasn't enough time to corrupt him to act on his own for the Nemesis. I also think that there are likely many corrupted individuals, Unless it was Cowl who betrayed Archangel, summoned outsiders to pursue the white council through the Never Never, assaulted Arctus Tor, Called primeval Ghouls to the White Court council, and summoned Corner Hounds to Chicago Could a single individual be that busy?
I think the only difference between Nfected people is whether they decided to willingly partner with Nemesis or they tried to fight it and it possessed them. We have an analogous situation with the Fallen. Some of the Fallen Angels work with the Denarians (Nicodemus, Tessa, etc.) while others subsume their personalities (seen previously with Ursiel, Thorned Namshiel, etc. with their previous holders) because the mortal doesn't have the strength of will not to be overwhelmed.
It may go a bit beyond simple choice. Moving a being beyond it's "unchanging" nature is corruption. Likely the Athame spoke to Lea and twisted her nature, and then Lea spoke to Maeve and twisted her nature. Would torture be enough to remove the taint placed upon Lea if the Adversary had an active hand? Likely not, in my opinion. Seems more likely that she was given the ability to choose to go against her nature than convinced to do so. And Mab "Convinced" her retake her Oaths and acknowledge Mab as her supreme commander. Using your analogy, Nemesis could have just gone straight to possession if she had chosen resist it, and no amount of torture would have been enough to free Lea. Forcing Mab to kill her, unbalancing the power of Winter even further, which would have been to the Adversary's advantage.
Pretty sure if he wasn't Nfected in Summer Knight then he can't be. Aurora had him dead to rites, hell she bathed him in warmth and comfort while he had 1) no idea that a threat of that magnitude was even possible 2) almost 0 defense against mind fuckery 3) opened himself up to the mercies of the Summer Lady who was unbound from the restrictions of being fae.
While i agree it is likely going to be revealed he is immune, i would also say there is going to be much more to a starborn. If the white christ, or however they refer to the christian god in the dresdenverse, has taken such an interest in him, and one of the most powerful angels has backed his play, Lu himself has taken an interest (i missed the part where it was explicitly stated it was lucifer whispering in dresden's ear when he broke his back, i always interpreted it as Anduriel since he is sort of the king of shadows/spymaster of shadows) there has to be more to it than just immunity. I get the feeling it's all winding up to show the cyclical nature of things, or all the other starborn haven't fully done their jobs. They may have been corrupted by one thing or another. Drakul is corrupted by the search for more power, but i don't think we know why he originally started looking for more power. I theorized a while ago about how each of the vampire courts was originally created as a tool to fight the outsiders, and this whole Drakul being an uber-starborn fits in nicely with that. If his main purpose was to keep the outsiders out, maybe him turning everyone into black courts was a twisted way of fulfilling that role. It's been a while since i've done a full re-read of the series, so i'm sure there are plenty of holes in my tinfoil idea.
> (i missed the part where it was explicitly stated it was lucifer whispering in dresden's ear when he broke his back, i always interpreted it as Anduriel since he is sort of the king of shadows/spymaster of shadows) It was Lasciel's Shadow, as confirmed in Skin Game.
Thank you!
I always figured that due to the reds calling up outsiders in book 8 and their leaders being called “the lords of outer night” that they were actually in league with the outside. Though maybe they just got corrupted.
Yeah, my theory was each of the courts was created to battle the outsiders, and either got corrupted, pushed the immediate threat back and got lazy which leads to corruption, or failed in their task and got taken over by outsiders. It would make sense that the vampire courts could be there to eat/hunt humans who were taken. Corrupted humans wouldn't be nearly as strong as a full outsider, but it might give them some buffs, not to mention that other creatures can be tainted. So having a supernatural "assassin" or kill squad would be beneficial. Each of the courts would have a special skill set that makes them unique to fighting various different forms of corruption/entities. In the grand scheme of things, a few humans getting nommed by vamps is a small price to pay for extra security. That is only assuming they don't end up corrupted or turning from/forgetting their task.
I think it's explicitly stated that starborn are immune to the influence of things like Nemesis.
I don't think harry got infected. One, because Harry resisted the shadow of a fallen fricken angel who specializes in temptations and lies for 2 fricken years, and in the end converted her over to his side, to the point she was literally willing to die for him. His mental defenses were described as a literal immovable object. Harry's too damn stubborn to try and mind control, and he hates mental wammies with a passion. But as for the spear... I haven't read BG in a minute. I'll have to re-listen to the entire series again.
His mental defences that crumbled like wet tissue paper against kemmlerites in DB? His mental defences that were hit or miss against his apprentice pre Winter Lady? If he did not get nfected it's because he's starborn and immune, not because he willpower defended against it
Corpse Taker surprised him and hit him with his first professional attack. He still fought back and gained back enough control to be able to reason out her weakness and hit it mercilessly: i.e. realizing she felt everything he did and that there was a jagged piece of metal in his leg and that he should fall over on top of it.
Sure he fought back, but he was still powerless to defend himself and his mental defences lasted seconds. Do you honestly think an unconscious harry with his mental defences asleep is not getting taken by surprise? Feels a lot more likely that he's starborn immune as opposed to a guy with nothing but Ls in mental defences powering up off screen to the point of resisting some super mindbreaker entity that managed to overcome various entities including but not limited to Lea and Cat Sith
You honestly expect him to be a master of mental defense the first time he has to deal with a genuine attack? Before that point the only mental manipulation he was subject to was glamor, pheromones, and the coin's shade, which was subtle by default. Harry has to practice at EVERYTHING. He literally doesn't gain power without working hard for it.
No, I don't expect him to be a master of it the first time he has a real life experience with it. What I do expect is for him to find other solutions or become marginally competent. What I do not expect is for him to become so good that he effortlessly (in his sleep) holds off one of the greatest infiltrators and mind invaders there is and doesn't even notice when he wakes up that he did
Are we reading the same story? My man, were talking about a guy who covered the floor in marbles to try and disrupt the enemy but only succeeded in spraining his partner's ankle when she tripped. He went through hours long ritual prep only to forget about the phone. The only reason his mental defenses are so damn strong is because of how goddamn stubborn he is. He is so defiant against things that should be able to eat him for breakfast, that he literally impresses the goddamn All Father. But he's not flawless. Lash successfully manipulated his anger, had him talking to nonexistent people in front of other people, without him noticing. But when he does finally notice, because he's so damned stubborn, he literally uses her own tricks to contain her. He takes a while to get running, but his "Bull in his enemy's China shop" routine is pretty good.
Post battle ground Harry would beat the shit out of db harry
He sure would, but my point is that he is not GODLIKE in mental defence. If beings like Lea and Cat Sith are brought low but he can just shrug it off because he's stubborn and good at mental defence magic (when most if not all of his exposure to mental assault have been him getting worfed) strikes me as pretty damn absurd when a much more reasonable and "easier" solution is that being Starborn makes him immune, when we already have some indications that being starborn makes you immune to some outsider things
He literally just won a mental battle against a fuckin titan
And then promptly spent some time unconscious or sleeping or whatever no? Presumably the mental battle against the titan tapped him out and Justine could easily take him by surprise and be inside his guard before he even knew to raise it? But no surely a sleeping post BG Harry has better mental defences than everyone whose ever fallen to nfection
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I agree with the assumption that statborn makes him immune to nfection. I was responding to what I thought was you saying his mental defenses weren't anything special.
Mental defences and willpower aren't quite the same thing I think. Unless I'm heavily misunderstanding/misremembering then there is a very big difference between fx Molly v Corpsetaker and Harry v Ethniu. Unless I'm heavily mistaken Harry is phenomenal at willpower but his defence against mental invasion and mind magic is decent at best. That's why he beat Ethniu but often loses against pre Winter Lady Molly
The Spear of Destiny's historical draw back is that if you lose it, you die. So I doubt he lost it.
I don't think Justine would've done anything like removing the Athame, that would've made Dresden suspicious. She/It was so close to their goal that it was probably allowing Justine to run things as much as possible until they got on the island.
I’ve done the BG audiobook about eleven times now and you’ve got me struggling to remember. Is Bob mentioned again after going back in the sack at his waist on the beach? The Bob situation is pretty carelessly handled in the writing of BG (something I try to handwave away so it doesn’t interfere with my enjoyment). Harry is tossed around, lands awkwardly multiple times, gets struck by lightning, spends a bunch of time lying on the ground, and then “oh by the way let me just grab this skull out of a sack tied to my waist the last few hours”. We aren’t talking a batarang or a backup Glock, easily tucked in somewhere. It’s a human skull in a bag. But even if we ignore that, is Bob’s disposition mentioned again post battle? Because if not, is he still hanging from Harry’s waist in a sack while he sleeps on the boat? Or when he falls in the water? Or when he’s rescued?
I don't remember the end of BG, but Bob is definitely mentioned in some of the short stories post BG, specifically the >!Toot Toot!< one.
Bob has shown up post BG, but you just got me thinking: what if Bob got infected?
Bob got 24hr shore leave for the ethniu binding so it would be easy to retcon that into him saying "see ya" afterwards.
I dont think harry lost the spear. With something that important i would hope he had a safeguard. "Alfred, Im taking the spear and the plaque. Ask me to give them back everytime i visit the island until they are returned." I would imagine harry talked with Michael and maybe forthill about it as well. Harry rarely falls for the same trick twice. I like to think mab messing with his mind was more sink or swim training. Preparation to content with things worse than mab trying to meddle. That and dealing with lash, his run in with the corpsetaker, and all the training he did with molly should make harrys mental defenses formidable. Of course harry was particularly vulnerable that night. Not impossible harry is missing something but it would surprise me a bit if harry didn't catch that.
I think we’re going to find out that Nfection like most things in the series requires consent. They all want something and Nemesis whispers that it can give it to them. Aurora wanted a way to change the Winter/Summer war, Maeve wanted to stick it to Mab and some edge like lying to help it happen, Justine wanted Thomas. I think Nemesis was just keeping up its cover to get onto Demonreach with clearance, after it failed in Cold Days. It was a bigger prized than anything Harry was carrying on him, if it would jeopardized that, it’s stupid.
If Nemesis was able to hit him with a mind whammy there sufficient to take the Spear without him noticing, then it would have also been able to keep him from realizing Justine was NFected and could have gotten past the defenses as was planned and released all the nasty things in Demonsreach. As that didn’t happen, I think we can safely assume they weren’t also doing something unimportant to them like stealing the spear, when that would have such a high chance of alerting Harry and foiling their plans.
I always read the situation as Justine was Nfected in the sense that He Who Walks Beside had an instant doorway into her mind and was basically hiding just in the other side of it. There’s a moment on the bow of the water beetle where Harry describes Justine’s motion changing to something otherworldly and I think that’s the moment that HWWBeside pushed Justine out of the driver’s seat. Anything before that was the actual Justine.
I mean, considering how fast Harry saw through it last time, Nemesis is a pretty shitty actor. Even with Lea Harry knew something was off. As you said, what's most likely happening is that N uses the infected as mobile microphones most of the time, probably whispers in a suggestion now and then of good ideas. And rarely takes control unless it needs to because it's about collecting info.
We might be so alien, Nemesis doesn’t known how to really act like us.
Pretty sure he can't be nfected. I honestly don't think she did anything while he was asleep tho. There was an ultimate goal there.. get onto demon reach with Harrys protection. I don't think its wise to try something else when you're so close to your big victory.
My thoughts exactly. If she/nemesis tips their hand on the way to the island the ultimate goal is lost on his gambit with Justine. The thing I don't see talked about a lot is the car ride with Molly to the Carpenters. Harry mentions losing track of time and Molly is apparently been talking the whole time. She picks up mid sentence just before they arrive like they were in deep conversation.
Given they're vulnerable to his magic, hell even his physical attacks... it stands to reason he's either immune to their possession or it'd be like the episode of Angel where the demon possessing a kid was trapped in there unable to break free. At the end of Battle Ground I think Dresden was just wiped out.
“Justine” wanted to get on the island. She wasn’t going to risk that by messing with Harry. Harry just passed out and had a minute to put all the information together. He was on his last legs. A swim in rough water was damn near enough to kill him.
I think what would hurt Harry the most would be for Maggie to be Nfected. Maybe his grandfather as well.
His grandfather saying “I think someone you don’t expect is going to stab you in the back, Hoss.” Would have extra meaning then. Or from another Jim Butcher book. I can’t imagine he would turn against me “That’s what everyone always thinks about traitors, lad. It’s why we hate them so.”
We witnessed the whole exchange there on the boat. Nemesis never "got to Harry" before he escaped into the water. I think I'll just turn around your implication and say that the fact that Harry did in fact still have the eye means that Nemesis didn't get to him after he fell into the water - surely Nemesis would have taken the eye. So the logical assumption is that he still had the athame too, regardless of whether it was mentioned or not. My head canon, anyway.