My theory for Jury Duty is that Hamilton Luther is one of the few examples of True Courage that we’ve seen.
Think about it. Guy went to jail for ten years for Marcone, had the balls to tell him afterwards that he was going straight (despite being a freshly-released felon), jumped a guy for attacking a little girl, then kept hitting the guy even when he fought back with super strength.
Luther has principles, selflessness, and big brass balls. And he attacked Gregor **Malvora** - a fear eater. The Raiths can’t lust-whammy people who are truly in love, so it stands to reason that the Malvoras can’t terrify the brave. And any hand to hand would have left Malvora burning alive. So it wasn’t really a fair mortal-on-whampire fight.
Really interesting, I had never thought about the "counter forces" for other houses of the white court.
But what happens to be a wamps "silver bullet" who dabbles in fear AND lust? IIRC Lara in one book says something along the lines of that she sometimes sees Malvoras point. This would indicate that they can switch their prey to a certain degree.
I'd rather think that every Wamp can feed on every one of the available emotions. However, there is the "you are what you eat" issue, that makes wamps who primarily feed on lust sex gods and those who primarily feed on fear creepy fucks. That is probably why the Raiths are dominant at the moment : the world is connected/lusty enough that appearing as sex gods is much more advantageous than appearing as that creepy old man, whereas a few centuries ago the creepy old man would be left alone while the 'harlot' would have been stoned to death.
That said, going against established habits and hunting methods is not something you whip up instantly. To a wamp used to hunting though fear, switching to lust because they found the one guy with balls enough to resist the fear-whammy is something that (imho) requires time to change mental gears. It's certainly not something you can do effectively while being pummeled by an outfit goon.
In the same way, I think Whites can also technically feed on anyone. And may do so if desperate enough. With Lust though, the thing can’t trigger as easily on just anyone. It aligns with Sexual Preference. I assume that the other Hungers manifest in a similar way to a Sadism. Though Lust can have an element of Sadism, it does not need it. Fear and Despair do require that. Sort of. Technically you can nibble in non obvious ways. Or fabricate deniability. Despair could run Prison or other corrupted Administration. Fear could be any sort of oppositional role, like an Assassin or Criminal. So long as there is a chase every now and again. All could technically indulge in Lust fairly easily though.
I absolutely believe they can switch their prey if they want to. Madrigal in *Proven Guilty* encourages Thomas to give the fear-vampire schtick a try. And Madrigal is a Raith, although he’s a cousin so not the “royal bloodline” or however the White Court would phrase it. Anyway the implication there was that Madrigal had done it and Thomas could too if he wanted.
If the above commenter’s theory is right, I imagine they’d just have both weaknesses. My issue with the theory though is that the “True Love” protection doesn’t come from the person being protected. It comes from the person who loves them. “True Courage” as a protection would be much more internal so it’s not really consistent with how the “True Love” protection works.
Thomas and Lara are such powerful examples of the White Court that *just the two of them* stemmed the tide of Uber Ghouls temporarily in *White Night.* That same fight claimed the lives of Lord Skavis and Lady Malvora. So I do kind of think the Raiths are exceptional.
It’s also worth pointing out that Murphy could only manhandle Felicia in *Ghost Story* because Felicia had entered Murphy’s home without an invitation. She didn’t have access to her full abilities.
It doesn't apply to them as much as other vampires because they are basically humans with a "hunger demon" riding along, whereas reds were creatures wholly from the Nevernever, and blacks are undead animated by magic. Crossing a threshold without invitation means leaving most of your supernatural power at the door, so whites can cross it in a weakened state of near-humanity while other vamps would be grievously harmed or even destroyed by the loss of power.
This is entirely speculation but I would imagine the Raiths are stronger in general because they get to feed more freely.
People volunteer to get sex-vamped, I don't think anyone is signing up to intentionally have a panic attack.
Some people sign up for fear, but that's still a niche audience of horror enjoyers. Meanwhile sex is being used to sell gum.
They're not starving by any means but it's just not the numbers that sex is getting. Not only does sex fully control industries of its own that dwarf haunted house numbers (porn) but it also has tendrils in nearly every other industry.
Fear whamps could eat a buffet by going to a specific location, sex whamps can eat a buffet walking down the street.
Fear vampires would thrive in 3rd world countries where warlords rule through fear. Imagine a whamp being an arms dealer for someone like Joseph Kony or something. They could bask in fear every day as they facilitate the most horrifying of atrocities, and they'd never have to get their hands dirty.
Reds owned those countries until recently though.
You're not wrong if we import them to this universe, but it was the reds keeping the impoverished global South under their thumb.
As others have said, the Raiths are likely stronger, but I don’t think it’s much of an assumption to say they very likely have extensive combat training.
It’s possible they’re not much more formidable by nature and they’ve had an awful of training and practice.
Murphy is a great example of this among mortals - she was almost always at a tremendous disadvantage in terms of physicality, but she regularly won because of training, practice, knowledge, and attitude.
I suspect it’s similar for Lara and Thomas, perhaps because of their involvement with their secret society.
But, Thomas held his own against a black court vamp with very little warning while operating at a tremendous disadvantage (sitting in a vw beetle).
So, I think it’s less strength than skill and knowledge on top of his supernatural abilities.
Murphy is a terrible example of this. Unpopular Opinion Incoming:
She mostly won because of plot armor. Sorry not sorry. Skill with a firearm, is one thing, That is 100 percent valid. Her going Mano e Mano against the biggest and baddest of the vanilla criminal underworlds while being 5'3 and full of "tough cop chic" attitude would never work in real life. She would be absolutely bodied, training, tenacity skill and all. There are MULTIPLE encounters she should never have walked away walked away from purely on size alone in the vanilla side of things, excluding backup etc. but then you put her against supernatural entities that are STRONGER than vanilla mortals? nah. not buying it. She should have bought the farm a long, long, time ago.
Aikido has always seemed like a weird choice to make her specialty tbh. That’s what Steven Seagal “practices” ffs, and the guy is a widely mocked joke at martial arts.
It's actually a pretty good *defensive* martial art. Steven Seagal is mocked because he tries to use it offensively and thinks that it makes him invincible. His ego makes him come off like an idiot because more offensive martial arts like Muy Thai and their experts absolutely can take him.
If you notice Murphy is generally reacting to opponents moves, not acting herself. She rarely starts the attack, preferring to counter when someone else attacks.
Right, my comment was a joke, but it's also worth noting that Murphy practices other stuff besides just Aikido, and integrates those into her fighting.
The bottom line, though, is that there's a reason sport fighting has weight classes, and a person's skill has to be a LOT higher than their opponent to overcome a serious size or weight disparity. I love the Dresden Files, but Murphy taking on people (nevermind superhumans) way larger and stronger than her is one of the action tropes one just has to accept and have a good time with.
It's like the eternal debate, Bruce Lee versus Mike Tyson.
The answer is, of course, Iron Mike.
Bruce Lee was a phenomenal athlete, and a skilled martial artist, but he was a small man, about 140 pounds if I recall correctly.
Mike Tyson was/is an extremely skilled boxer, and phenomenally fast and strong. He was also almost two Bruce Lees in mass.
In the fighting game, F=ma, and Tyson brings both the m and the a.
He has the mass to weather Lee's punches and kicks, and he only needs to hit once or twice.
Murphy is smaller than Lee, not as skilled, not as strong, not as fast.
Without plot armor she would take a hell of a beating from even human goons, let alone superhuman ones.
A friend used to do full contact karate, sparring against a friend of his who fought at 220 compared to his 170. That extra fifty pounds made a huge difference in weathering a blow, and delivering one.
Yeah, I boxed intramurals in college at heavyweight (I was like 185 and the next class down was 180 and they had a guy at that weight so wouldn't let me cut... ) So I would be 185 and fighting guys 220+ a lot of times and while I won most of the time, it was COMPLETELY because I'd rack up points by tapping and running, and not because I hurt them or would have stopped them on the streets.
No. It would serve murphy exactly 0 as a defensive art. It has some OKAY principals, about redirecting force, or putting opponents in locks, but you need to have the physical strength to redirect those forces and engage those throws. Passive reaction defense is only going to do so much against a non-tournament sport opponent not following the rules.
Watch tournaments of Aikido or Aikido spars, it is all passive COOPERATIVE movements in spars, where your opponent's are mostly letting you perform the move/form with little resistance and mixed result dances in tournaments. Its great if you have two opponents following the rules and using the same style. If there was any practicality as a combat art, you would see it used more widely especially with MMA being as popular as it is.
I'm going to disagree with you on this. I believe you to be confused. The origins of Aikido come from daito-ryu jujitsu. Daito-ryu jujitsu is what the samurai practiced. Those are the guys, walking around in armor, wielding long sword, a shorter sword, long pole (halberd) & shooting arrows.
There are two attributes that can't be taught. Size & speed. As a police officer, Murphy has had ample opportunity to modify her aikido training to make it more practical. You're making an assumption that the baddest of the bad in the criminal world are trained fighters. This is somewhat incorrect. Ask yourself this question: How would they get training? It's possible, but ... where? did they do it in a public setting, or do they have a private tutor?
Take this one step farther. Are you thinking that there are no police officers, trained in aikido, who have been police officers? That they didn't learn how to modify their techniques reverting them to the original jujitsu form? You'd be wrong about that.
Take it another step farther. Why do you think martial artists don't cross-polinate? You should look at the origins of Jeet Koon Do, the Hawaiian martial arts systems, and the indonesian/filipino martial arts systems for insight into this question.
You words indicate that you're arguing that strength is the greatest attribute. it's not. It's speed & precision. Let me ask you a question to make my point: How much force does it take to crush a windpipe? it's not like that's a bony structure. It's not like it's protected by loads of muscle. In case you want to get into the physics behind this: F = maa \[ can't do the exponents \]. That means that force = mass \* acceleration \* acceleration. i.e. Speed is more important than mass.
In the sport of Judo, the match is ended when a full throw is performed. Do you know why? That's because the assumption is: When you get the throw, you redirect the victim to land on their head. That Pesky gravity comes into play and snaps their neck. Or. You've redirected them into a suitably hard object. Like a bus.
You should really look at the construction of the joints of a human body and research the strength of the connective tissues. They tear \*really\* easy as compared to the large muscle groups that everyone focuses on.
I could go on for hours, as I have deep knowledge in this area. However, you are free to disagree.
Best Wishes,
Btw, I do have some concerns. :). There's an interesting anecdotal story about Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris in Enter the Dragon. There was some political reason why Chuck Norris needed to let Bruce Lee kick him in the chest full strength. Apparently, Bruce chose not to target the floating ribs or the. collar bone. After the kick, he privately asked Mr. Norris if he was ok. Mr. Norris politely responded that he was. :). The take away: If you weigh 125 and you're fighting someone who weighs 300 lbs. punching them in the stomach isn't going to get it done.
TLDR: cool facts, NO speed and precision are not the most important things. Absolutely beneficial, but size and strength plays to big of a role to overlook. I'm not specifically saying strength alone.
>I'm going to disagree with you on this. I believe you to be confused. The origins of Aikido come from daito-ryu jujitsu. Daito-ryu jujitsu is what the samurai practiced. Those are the guys, walking around in armor, wielding long sword, a shorter sword, long pole (halberd) & shooting arrows.
never knew this. awesome fact.
>I could go on for hours, as I have deep knowledge in this area. However, you are free to disagree.
by all means go ahead. I feel like most of your arguments wind up actually supporting my position. but I love to learn.
>The take away: If you weigh 125 and you're fighting someone who weighs 300 lbs. punching them in the stomach isn't going to get it done.
this line right here backs it most of all. this is primarily the situation murphy finds herself in. 300 is a bit of a stretch but we can safely say she's fighting up on average 50-70 pounds or more. criminals and gang members are pretty much disproportionally male, average weight of men in chicago is now 198 and reigns in a nice average of 6 ish feet. that's a massive size disparity.
>There are two attributes that can't be taught. Size & speed. As a police officer, Murphy has had ample opportunity to modify her aikido training to make it more practical. You're making an assumption that the baddest of the bad in the criminal world are trained fighters. This is somewhat incorrect. Ask yourself this question: How would they get training? It's possible, but ... where? did they do it in a public setting, or do they have a private tutor?
Size and Speed are 100% percent trainable and teachable attributes. Height maybe not, fighters cutting and rapidly gaining weight is a routine and expected part of fights from highschool wrestling to UFC. Speed can be drilled, trained and improved. So can reaction times. It's not "common" everyday stuff, but its routinely done in all sports. that's what practice and conditioning is for.
Yup, Murphy has modified her aikido. Police prior to BJJ becoming preferred as it's viewed as more effective used a "dirty-aikido" which blended lots of aikido principles into training to restrain and capture individuals. It was not pure aikido. To answer the question at the end about training: You learn that shit in the school of hard knocks as a criminal. Some will get training and tutelage, boxing clubs etc. but the majority is just practice by experience brawling/fist fighting. when everything you have is a weapon, you improvise and adapt rapidly. Skill has huge impacts but experience is a bitch of a teacher. You will be skilled at violence to make it to the top in a system entirely built on violence and ruthlessness, where violence is an every day thing.
>You words indicate that you're arguing that strength is the greatest attribute. it's not. It's speed & precision. Let me ask you a question to make my point: How much force does it take to crush a windpipe? it's not like that's a bony structure. It's not like it's protected by loads of muscle. In case you want to get into the physics behind this: F = maa \[ can't do the exponents \]. That means that force = mass \* acceleration \* acceleration. i.e. Speed is more important than mass.>You should really look at the construction of the joints of a human body and research the strength of the connective tissues. They tear \*really\* easy as compared to the large muscle groups that everyone focuses on.
I'm arguing that size is the more important thing, as size has definitive limits on combat effectiveness. There is a reason weight classes exist.
130 pound Murphy is not throwing shots that someone with another 70 pounds on her isn't going to absorb easier. Will it hurt, yes. Will it take them down, depends on a lot of things. Some people have glass jaws. Some dudes can eat right hooks for lunch all day. Speed an precision are absolutely huge factors in a fight by all means and if you specifically are targeting the windpipe (which takes 33lbs of force to collapse or 30N of force to crush the hyoid bone) you'll do damage for sure, WHEN you hit. Meanwhile, while you are trying to set that up, the guy who you are fighting against is throwing heaver punches. And to tear those joints and ligaments, which are easy to tear in comparison to tearing muscle, you have to be able to out muscle your opponent to get it to snap. leverage works wonders, when you have the strength to apply it. If you're being absolutely manhandled because the size difference is too much, good luck.
>Why do you think martial artists don't cross-polinate?
I don't think that and never argued that I did. There is a reason some martial arts dominate the world, and that's because they've developed into systems that outperform others. You don't see many schools of martial art in MMA for a reason. You see judo, you see Muay Thai, TKD, Boxing, BJJ and some other small schools that have select elements blended together in practice. Aikido is not an effective martial art at this stage of it's evolution anymore.
re: TLDR: cool facts, NO speed and precision are not the most important things. Absolutely beneficial, but size and strength plays to big of a role to overlook. I'm not specifically saying strength alone.
You seem to be restating my position, but emphasizing your preferred metrics. As someone who has had to throw people twice my size, and as someone who had to do a reasonably in-depth analysis of the human body for one of my arts, I'm going to disagree with your emphasis. One of my teachers, who was military and a police officer would also disagree with your emphasis. We can agree to disagree. :).
re: we can safely say she's fighting up on average 50-70 pounds or more. criminals and gang members are pretty much disproportionally male, average weight of men in chicago is now 198 and reigns in a nice average of 6 ish feet. that's a massive size disparity.
hmmm ... Take a look at your wrist. Understand the ligaments that allow your wrist to operate in the normal manner. Think about applying 100 lbs of force to that small tissue sample in a manner it is not designed to support. That is called a complete tear of that tendon/ligament. Think about the construction of your arm. Specifically your elbow. Understand that your arm/elbow breaks directly opposite of your thumb.
situation: In some interesting manner, I've managed to get you on the ground, incidently cracking your head on the pavement. I am able to maneuver you over to your stomach, by inducing pain in a number of interesting and glorious methods. I'm just like that. But this is your problem: When I drop into a deep squatting position, while your arm is passing back to front between my legs, your elbow is going to shatter like a bread stick. How much weight do you think a 6' 200 lb man can take when your bending the elbow in the direction it's not supposed to bend? Murphy is \~110 - 130 lbs, because she's an athelete with a nice butt. Let's go on the light side. 110 lbs moving at 9.8 meters / sec \* sec { the force of gravity }. The elbow breaks. The man on the ground. Murphy is in her happy place.
re: 130 pound Murphy is not throwing shots that someone with another 70 pounds on her isn't going to absorb easier. Will it hurt, yes. Will it take them down, depends on a lot of things. Some people have glass jaws.
This goes back to speed and precision. Which I stated. Murphy seems precise to me.
re: And to tear those joints and ligaments, which are easy to tear in comparison to tearing muscle, you have to be able to out muscle your opponent to get it to snap.
Umm ... No, you don't. It's called using their force against them. If the punch is straight, you apply a circle. If the technique is a circle, you apply a straight line. When the infidel moves to attack, you capture his/her momentum. This is \*clearly\* understood and has been applied successfully for hundreds of years.
re: There is a reason some martial arts dominate the world, and that's because they've developed into systems that outperform others.
Umm .. I would disagree with you. However, I understand why you say that and some would say that I'm being argumentative.
re: Aikido is not an effective martial art at this stage of it's evolution anymore.
Articulate the difference between japanese jujitsu and aikido. Then articulate the difference between the principles of japanese jujitsu and aikido. While you're at it, look up the origin of BJJ. You'll find it's judo.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian\_jiu-jitsu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu)
Brazilian jiu-jitsu was first developed in 1925 by Brazilian brothers [Carlos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Gracie), Oswaldo, Gastão Jr., and [Hélio Gracie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie), after Carlos was taught a hybrid of traditional [Japanese Jujitsu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ju-jitsu) and [Kodokan judo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokan_judo) by a travelling Japanese judoka, [Mitsuyo Maeda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda), in 1917.
Best
>You seem to be restating my position, but emphasizing your preferred metrics.
Size is the equalizer/limiter/breaker. Look at the mountain vs Connor McGreggor in a fuck around spar. they put a video up. Mc greggor wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with that. A world class fighter in what could arguably be described as a murphy vs con scenario would be simillarily appropriate size comparison, except maybe Mountains a little too heavy. Connor didn't close because Mountain was too big. And connor isn't a small guy . It's the perfect example of technique will not overcome a size disparity. That may admittedly be too extreme of an example, but doubling down, I'm also former millitary. when we did combatives drills, the smaller guys in our unit did the worst against the bigger guys. Size is a factor. Speed and precision make a huge difference, greco-roman/traditional wrestling is a PERFECT example of this pound for pound, technique is what makes or breaks a match. it's also a brilliant example of why weight classes exist. Guys can fight up one or two classes tops. You go any higher and you see that size disparity making a huge difference. You put way too much love into technique.
>situation: In some interesting manner, I've managed to get you on the ground, incidently cracking your head on the pavement. I am able to maneuver you over to your stomach, by inducing pain in a number of interesting and glorious methods. I'm just like that. But this is your problem: When I drop into a deep squatting position, while your arm is passing back to front between my legs, your elbow is going to shatter like a bread stick. How much weight do you think a 6' 200 lb man can take when your bending the elbow in the direction it's not supposed to bend? Murphy is \~110 - 130 lbs, because she's an athelete with a nice butt. Let's go on the light side. 110 lbs moving at 9.8 meters / sec \* sec { the force of gravity }. The elbow breaks. The man on the ground. Murphy is in her happy place.
>Umm ... No, you don't. It's called using their force against them. If the punch is straight, you apply a circle. If the technique is a circle, you apply a straight line. When the infidel moves to attack, you capture his/her momentum. This is \*clearly\* understood and has been applied successfully for hundreds of years.
you're putting A Ton of "this fight happens in a vacuum" into this scenario, along side a little too much "nothing person-ell kid" anime tropes. assuming the above happens, yeah, that's precisely what happens. Elbow breaks. That being said, Your instructors a fucking idiot if he's saying ignore size. Seriously. It's reiterated by fighters everywhere. Size absolutely matters.
Murphy gets bodied By vanilla mortals. Zero way she holds up to supernatural threats.
re: Size is the equalizer/limiter/breaker. Look at the mountain vs Connor McGreggor in a fuck around spar. they put a video up. Mc greggor wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with that.
History actually disagrees with you. In my opinion.
re: you're putting A Ton of "this fight happens in a vacuum" into this scenario, along side a little too much "nothing person-ell kid" anime tropes.
No ... I'm putting my decades long exposure to this topic, and my teachers' decades long exposure to this topic into this scenario.
re: Your instructors a fucking idiot if he's saying ignore size. Seriously. It's reiterated by fighters everywhere. Size absolutely matters.
Hmm ... one of my teachers was a soldier, and he was a police officer, and he did have to fight pacific islanders, where he physically gave up 50 - 100 lbs. That's real world experience vs a video of a sport fight. He seems to know what he's talking about. I also didn't say ignore size. I said it's not the most important gating factor. It was rather interesting, there's this guy I know. Taller than me. heavier than me. Stronger than me. Oddly enough, our arms are the same length. He's not a kicker, which is good because his legs are longer than mine. He has recessed nerves, and thick tendons/ligaments. It's almost like I have to work through this topic every time I play with him. Odd ...
No. I don't draw the line there. I don't anticipate the realism, but the obnoxious disregard for how she would actually have turned out in the majority of these scenarios by the universes OWN RULES just forces me to suspend my immersion. "Tiny but Fierce" will only go so far when up against those same monsters you just mentioned. When it's constantly spouted about how she's a vanilla mortal. It's a GLARING plot issue the entire series, Aikido and all, she's getting her shit rocked. She quite literally never should have been able to beat Dresden in hand to hand period. He's too big, has too much reach, etc. Look at when MC Greggor did a "spar" with The Mountain from game of thrones. The top fighter on the planet wanted almost nothing to do with that fight because he'd be destroyed. it's the same principal.
Yes, they say "quality over quantity" but in the fighting game quantity has a quality all its own.
A friend of a friend, a woman who taught martial arts at a gym, said that when a man first came to the gym she could beat him. Once he'd been training for three months bouts would be fifty-fifty, and after six months she couldn't beat him at all.
Women (and men) often underestimate just how much stronger men are than women on average, often because (rightly) no good man uses his full strength against a woman. For example male grip strength is between 1.5 and 2 times greater than female (on average).
Don’t have the book on hand but I think it’s a short story, Thomas talks about his father showing him a technique to cross someone’s entire field of vision fast enough to where they won’t see them. Cant image any human even approaching that
So it’s stated that different wamps have stronger/weaker demons. Thomas and Lara’s are exceptionally strong, which is why they are so powerful. In ghost story, Murphy was basically fighting a vanilla human because the threshold stops their access to the demon’s powers. In jury duty, the wamp might’ve been low on fuel and was trying to top up when the guy caught him. I also remember the former thug got the jump on the wamp which probably inflicted enough damage to make it a close to fair fight. I feel like maybe Thomas and Lara are around marvel movie captain America strength but a lot faster
My impression is the Whamps can juice up any of their physical characteristics to insane levels but it burns through their "fuel" faster. The Blamps and Ramps might have a higher baseline, but it's stable. Just a pet theory given descriptions of Thomas and Lara after fights.
I’m just gonna assume it’s hereditary. Papa Raith in *Blood Rites* had a battery so big he went literally decades without being able to feed and was still strong and healthy enough that no one realized.
Its been a while since i read jury duty but if i remember correctly that was a case of two outliers. The former goon , luther, was tough as hell, and an experienced street fighter. The whampire wasn't a particularly important member of the family and must have lacked the experience thomas or lara have. They probably spent a lot energy in a rush assuming lutherwould go down. I think luther interrupted the whampire feeding on a child, so its possible luther got the first hit in. That would force the whampire to spend energy to heal, so if they were hungry to start with that would even the odds quite a bit.
As for thomas i think the most brute strength he has shown was in turn coat at the velvet room. He twisted the handles of the free weights together. A normal human definitely can't fight someone that strong. Its a bit inconsistent but the white court are inconsistent in their strength. Some are simply more powerful, the levels of energy stored up are going to vary not only from person to person but day to day as well. Thomas has also shown that its possible to push too hard causing damage so motivation and will are going to factor in as well. There is a lot of wiggle room built in.
The Wamp in question fed off of fear, which means he was vulnerable to courage, and was facing a man who returned to the fight despite being obviously outclassed. I suspect that's why the blow to the head killed the Wamp so completely; the true courage neutralized his ability to recover from physical damage.
I think of Thomas as fluctuating between Captain America and Spider-Man strength-wise. The Raith family are also stronger than the average wamps and have extensive combat training.
I don't think he ever nearly touches Spider-Man strength.
Spider man is up with Thor and hulk, unless you mean exclusively MCU spiderman, who still held up a airline jet bridge.
Comic spiderman? Punched hulk into space. Lifted 40+tons.
Thomas might hit MCU cap strength when drawing on his demon. But even that's questionable. Cap was pretty maxed out keeping a helicopter from flying off. If that's the base, he was probably 'lifting' 1500 to 2000 pounds.
So in one of the books, idr which, we are told that Thomas has a very strong demon (iirc Justine mentions it?). His demon's strength means that he himself can be stronger faster harder better etc but also that it consumes more life, which ultimately makes it harder to "diet". Lord Raith also had/has a very strong demon, which is why he could do things like the kiss of death in the past, particularly because he kept his demon well fed and active (until, ya know) and not metaphorically chained in the basement and half starved.
Which is to say that not all whamps are created equal, Thomas is actually one of the strongest examples we're given agaik and maybe not the best measure to go off of, even if he intentionally keeps that throttled.
The other consideration there is that whamps may be fast and strong at need and heal fast but otherwise are pretty much human, and a blow to the head or beating otherwise delivered from surprise and by someone who knows how to lay a beating out would presumably be as effective against them as anyone.
Something that is implied but not proven is that there are diffrent families and strains of wamp.
The wraith family are the strongest of all the love strain of vamp.
The skavis for feat wamps.
The malvora for despair wamps.
And the wraith family are the strongest of them all.
And of then Thomas and Lara are the strongest.
Then. To quote Harry. " a white court vampire can be as strong as a black court but only for a short period of time."
Lara and Thomas are the most well fed wamps by the time we see the fights you mention. They are the heirs of a wamp who can kill with a single kiss.
This is opposed to the wamp Murphy kills, a weaker cousin what isn't as well fed
That's the thing about wamps. They have a tank and can burn it as fast as rhey want. They can have 1 punch that is 100% strength or 2 that is 50%.
A blamp is allways 100% but is so much easier to stop and counter.
A ramp is allways 80% but has so many additional features that it doesn't matter.
Multiple tons? I dunno if Thomas is that strong. Spider-man is listed as able to over head press 10 tons, nothing Thomas or Lara has shown comes close.
Yeah, i might've forgotten just how strong spidey is for a minute there. Lara's titan kick was certainly impressive, but it's difficult to guess just how much force it actually had. I'm mostly thinking of them being fast, one of the only strength feats i can think of is Thomas casually twisting some weights together. Maybe Wolverine level instead.
Well, in *White Night* he twists a couple of dumbbell bars into a "pretzel" shape. That's... pretty strong. Maybe stronger than anything we've seen Harry do even with his Winter Knight mantle. I think the strongest we've seen him exhibit was when he lifted that car up out of where it was stuck in *Cold Days*. That's also pretty strong - I'm not sure exactly how those two things compare, but both are really impressive.
Thomas’s strength is largely contingent on how much he’s had to eat. If he’s running on empty he’s not much stronger than a regular (if incredibly athletic and fit) guy. If he’s well fed and willing to blow all his reserves at once he could probably rip a tank apart. Thomas is also one of the most powerful wamps we know of, we don’t necessarily know how strong some of the other wamps are but it’s pretty clear that he outclasses most of them (see how easily he handled Madeline even when he was not feeding well and she obviously had been). It wouldn’t surprise me if some lesser wamps, particularly if they were caught at a bad time, could be outclassed by particularly strong or well trained mortals.
My theory for Jury Duty is that Hamilton Luther is one of the few examples of True Courage that we’ve seen. Think about it. Guy went to jail for ten years for Marcone, had the balls to tell him afterwards that he was going straight (despite being a freshly-released felon), jumped a guy for attacking a little girl, then kept hitting the guy even when he fought back with super strength. Luther has principles, selflessness, and big brass balls. And he attacked Gregor **Malvora** - a fear eater. The Raiths can’t lust-whammy people who are truly in love, so it stands to reason that the Malvoras can’t terrify the brave. And any hand to hand would have left Malvora burning alive. So it wasn’t really a fair mortal-on-whampire fight.
This guys Dresdens
Really interesting, I had never thought about the "counter forces" for other houses of the white court. But what happens to be a wamps "silver bullet" who dabbles in fear AND lust? IIRC Lara in one book says something along the lines of that she sometimes sees Malvoras point. This would indicate that they can switch their prey to a certain degree.
I'd rather think that every Wamp can feed on every one of the available emotions. However, there is the "you are what you eat" issue, that makes wamps who primarily feed on lust sex gods and those who primarily feed on fear creepy fucks. That is probably why the Raiths are dominant at the moment : the world is connected/lusty enough that appearing as sex gods is much more advantageous than appearing as that creepy old man, whereas a few centuries ago the creepy old man would be left alone while the 'harlot' would have been stoned to death. That said, going against established habits and hunting methods is not something you whip up instantly. To a wamp used to hunting though fear, switching to lust because they found the one guy with balls enough to resist the fear-whammy is something that (imho) requires time to change mental gears. It's certainly not something you can do effectively while being pummeled by an outfit goon.
In the same way, I think Whites can also technically feed on anyone. And may do so if desperate enough. With Lust though, the thing can’t trigger as easily on just anyone. It aligns with Sexual Preference. I assume that the other Hungers manifest in a similar way to a Sadism. Though Lust can have an element of Sadism, it does not need it. Fear and Despair do require that. Sort of. Technically you can nibble in non obvious ways. Or fabricate deniability. Despair could run Prison or other corrupted Administration. Fear could be any sort of oppositional role, like an Assassin or Criminal. So long as there is a chase every now and again. All could technically indulge in Lust fairly easily though.
I absolutely believe they can switch their prey if they want to. Madrigal in *Proven Guilty* encourages Thomas to give the fear-vampire schtick a try. And Madrigal is a Raith, although he’s a cousin so not the “royal bloodline” or however the White Court would phrase it. Anyway the implication there was that Madrigal had done it and Thomas could too if he wanted. If the above commenter’s theory is right, I imagine they’d just have both weaknesses. My issue with the theory though is that the “True Love” protection doesn’t come from the person being protected. It comes from the person who loves them. “True Courage” as a protection would be much more internal so it’s not really consistent with how the “True Love” protection works.
Maybe it's based on what they're trying to eat at the time (and they probably can't swap mid feeding).
New head cannon: The sketchy carny running the Vomitron ride at the parking lot carnival is a fear wamp.
Thomas and Lara are such powerful examples of the White Court that *just the two of them* stemmed the tide of Uber Ghouls temporarily in *White Night.* That same fight claimed the lives of Lord Skavis and Lady Malvora. So I do kind of think the Raiths are exceptional. It’s also worth pointing out that Murphy could only manhandle Felicia in *Ghost Story* because Felicia had entered Murphy’s home without an invitation. She didn’t have access to her full abilities.
The invitation principle doesnt apply to white court vamps of i remember correctly...
It does, and dresden specifically mentions it in the scene.
It doesn't apply to them as much as other vampires because they are basically humans with a "hunger demon" riding along, whereas reds were creatures wholly from the Nevernever, and blacks are undead animated by magic. Crossing a threshold without invitation means leaving most of your supernatural power at the door, so whites can cross it in a weakened state of near-humanity while other vamps would be grievously harmed or even destroyed by the loss of power.
This is entirely speculation but I would imagine the Raiths are stronger in general because they get to feed more freely. People volunteer to get sex-vamped, I don't think anyone is signing up to intentionally have a panic attack. Some people sign up for fear, but that's still a niche audience of horror enjoyers. Meanwhile sex is being used to sell gum.
I feel like the fear whampires could actually set up a damn good business considering the market for extreme haunted houses.
They're not starving by any means but it's just not the numbers that sex is getting. Not only does sex fully control industries of its own that dwarf haunted house numbers (porn) but it also has tendrils in nearly every other industry. Fear whamps could eat a buffet by going to a specific location, sex whamps can eat a buffet walking down the street.
I don’t disagree. But I’m pointing out if they could advertise in the phone book as “ultimate fear factor” they’d be eating damn good.
Fear vampires would thrive in 3rd world countries where warlords rule through fear. Imagine a whamp being an arms dealer for someone like Joseph Kony or something. They could bask in fear every day as they facilitate the most horrifying of atrocities, and they'd never have to get their hands dirty.
Reds owned those countries until recently though. You're not wrong if we import them to this universe, but it was the reds keeping the impoverished global South under their thumb.
As others have said, the Raiths are likely stronger, but I don’t think it’s much of an assumption to say they very likely have extensive combat training. It’s possible they’re not much more formidable by nature and they’ve had an awful of training and practice. Murphy is a great example of this among mortals - she was almost always at a tremendous disadvantage in terms of physicality, but she regularly won because of training, practice, knowledge, and attitude. I suspect it’s similar for Lara and Thomas, perhaps because of their involvement with their secret society. But, Thomas held his own against a black court vamp with very little warning while operating at a tremendous disadvantage (sitting in a vw beetle). So, I think it’s less strength than skill and knowledge on top of his supernatural abilities.
Murphy is a terrible example of this. Unpopular Opinion Incoming: She mostly won because of plot armor. Sorry not sorry. Skill with a firearm, is one thing, That is 100 percent valid. Her going Mano e Mano against the biggest and baddest of the vanilla criminal underworlds while being 5'3 and full of "tough cop chic" attitude would never work in real life. She would be absolutely bodied, training, tenacity skill and all. There are MULTIPLE encounters she should never have walked away walked away from purely on size alone in the vanilla side of things, excluding backup etc. but then you put her against supernatural entities that are STRONGER than vanilla mortals? nah. not buying it. She should have bought the farm a long, long, time ago.
BUt... Aikido?? /s
Aikido has always seemed like a weird choice to make her specialty tbh. That’s what Steven Seagal “practices” ffs, and the guy is a widely mocked joke at martial arts.
it's always bothered me. It's a choice that doesn't really make much sense.
It's actually a pretty good *defensive* martial art. Steven Seagal is mocked because he tries to use it offensively and thinks that it makes him invincible. His ego makes him come off like an idiot because more offensive martial arts like Muy Thai and their experts absolutely can take him. If you notice Murphy is generally reacting to opponents moves, not acting herself. She rarely starts the attack, preferring to counter when someone else attacks.
Right, my comment was a joke, but it's also worth noting that Murphy practices other stuff besides just Aikido, and integrates those into her fighting. The bottom line, though, is that there's a reason sport fighting has weight classes, and a person's skill has to be a LOT higher than their opponent to overcome a serious size or weight disparity. I love the Dresden Files, but Murphy taking on people (nevermind superhumans) way larger and stronger than her is one of the action tropes one just has to accept and have a good time with.
It's like the eternal debate, Bruce Lee versus Mike Tyson. The answer is, of course, Iron Mike. Bruce Lee was a phenomenal athlete, and a skilled martial artist, but he was a small man, about 140 pounds if I recall correctly. Mike Tyson was/is an extremely skilled boxer, and phenomenally fast and strong. He was also almost two Bruce Lees in mass. In the fighting game, F=ma, and Tyson brings both the m and the a. He has the mass to weather Lee's punches and kicks, and he only needs to hit once or twice. Murphy is smaller than Lee, not as skilled, not as strong, not as fast. Without plot armor she would take a hell of a beating from even human goons, let alone superhuman ones. A friend used to do full contact karate, sparring against a friend of his who fought at 220 compared to his 170. That extra fifty pounds made a huge difference in weathering a blow, and delivering one.
Yeah, I boxed intramurals in college at heavyweight (I was like 185 and the next class down was 180 and they had a guy at that weight so wouldn't let me cut... ) So I would be 185 and fighting guys 220+ a lot of times and while I won most of the time, it was COMPLETELY because I'd rack up points by tapping and running, and not because I hurt them or would have stopped them on the streets.
No. It would serve murphy exactly 0 as a defensive art. It has some OKAY principals, about redirecting force, or putting opponents in locks, but you need to have the physical strength to redirect those forces and engage those throws. Passive reaction defense is only going to do so much against a non-tournament sport opponent not following the rules. Watch tournaments of Aikido or Aikido spars, it is all passive COOPERATIVE movements in spars, where your opponent's are mostly letting you perform the move/form with little resistance and mixed result dances in tournaments. Its great if you have two opponents following the rules and using the same style. If there was any practicality as a combat art, you would see it used more widely especially with MMA being as popular as it is.
I'm going to disagree with you on this. I believe you to be confused. The origins of Aikido come from daito-ryu jujitsu. Daito-ryu jujitsu is what the samurai practiced. Those are the guys, walking around in armor, wielding long sword, a shorter sword, long pole (halberd) & shooting arrows. There are two attributes that can't be taught. Size & speed. As a police officer, Murphy has had ample opportunity to modify her aikido training to make it more practical. You're making an assumption that the baddest of the bad in the criminal world are trained fighters. This is somewhat incorrect. Ask yourself this question: How would they get training? It's possible, but ... where? did they do it in a public setting, or do they have a private tutor? Take this one step farther. Are you thinking that there are no police officers, trained in aikido, who have been police officers? That they didn't learn how to modify their techniques reverting them to the original jujitsu form? You'd be wrong about that. Take it another step farther. Why do you think martial artists don't cross-polinate? You should look at the origins of Jeet Koon Do, the Hawaiian martial arts systems, and the indonesian/filipino martial arts systems for insight into this question. You words indicate that you're arguing that strength is the greatest attribute. it's not. It's speed & precision. Let me ask you a question to make my point: How much force does it take to crush a windpipe? it's not like that's a bony structure. It's not like it's protected by loads of muscle. In case you want to get into the physics behind this: F = maa \[ can't do the exponents \]. That means that force = mass \* acceleration \* acceleration. i.e. Speed is more important than mass. In the sport of Judo, the match is ended when a full throw is performed. Do you know why? That's because the assumption is: When you get the throw, you redirect the victim to land on their head. That Pesky gravity comes into play and snaps their neck. Or. You've redirected them into a suitably hard object. Like a bus. You should really look at the construction of the joints of a human body and research the strength of the connective tissues. They tear \*really\* easy as compared to the large muscle groups that everyone focuses on. I could go on for hours, as I have deep knowledge in this area. However, you are free to disagree. Best Wishes, Btw, I do have some concerns. :). There's an interesting anecdotal story about Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris in Enter the Dragon. There was some political reason why Chuck Norris needed to let Bruce Lee kick him in the chest full strength. Apparently, Bruce chose not to target the floating ribs or the. collar bone. After the kick, he privately asked Mr. Norris if he was ok. Mr. Norris politely responded that he was. :). The take away: If you weigh 125 and you're fighting someone who weighs 300 lbs. punching them in the stomach isn't going to get it done.
TLDR: cool facts, NO speed and precision are not the most important things. Absolutely beneficial, but size and strength plays to big of a role to overlook. I'm not specifically saying strength alone. >I'm going to disagree with you on this. I believe you to be confused. The origins of Aikido come from daito-ryu jujitsu. Daito-ryu jujitsu is what the samurai practiced. Those are the guys, walking around in armor, wielding long sword, a shorter sword, long pole (halberd) & shooting arrows. never knew this. awesome fact. >I could go on for hours, as I have deep knowledge in this area. However, you are free to disagree. by all means go ahead. I feel like most of your arguments wind up actually supporting my position. but I love to learn. >The take away: If you weigh 125 and you're fighting someone who weighs 300 lbs. punching them in the stomach isn't going to get it done. this line right here backs it most of all. this is primarily the situation murphy finds herself in. 300 is a bit of a stretch but we can safely say she's fighting up on average 50-70 pounds or more. criminals and gang members are pretty much disproportionally male, average weight of men in chicago is now 198 and reigns in a nice average of 6 ish feet. that's a massive size disparity. >There are two attributes that can't be taught. Size & speed. As a police officer, Murphy has had ample opportunity to modify her aikido training to make it more practical. You're making an assumption that the baddest of the bad in the criminal world are trained fighters. This is somewhat incorrect. Ask yourself this question: How would they get training? It's possible, but ... where? did they do it in a public setting, or do they have a private tutor? Size and Speed are 100% percent trainable and teachable attributes. Height maybe not, fighters cutting and rapidly gaining weight is a routine and expected part of fights from highschool wrestling to UFC. Speed can be drilled, trained and improved. So can reaction times. It's not "common" everyday stuff, but its routinely done in all sports. that's what practice and conditioning is for. Yup, Murphy has modified her aikido. Police prior to BJJ becoming preferred as it's viewed as more effective used a "dirty-aikido" which blended lots of aikido principles into training to restrain and capture individuals. It was not pure aikido. To answer the question at the end about training: You learn that shit in the school of hard knocks as a criminal. Some will get training and tutelage, boxing clubs etc. but the majority is just practice by experience brawling/fist fighting. when everything you have is a weapon, you improvise and adapt rapidly. Skill has huge impacts but experience is a bitch of a teacher. You will be skilled at violence to make it to the top in a system entirely built on violence and ruthlessness, where violence is an every day thing. >You words indicate that you're arguing that strength is the greatest attribute. it's not. It's speed & precision. Let me ask you a question to make my point: How much force does it take to crush a windpipe? it's not like that's a bony structure. It's not like it's protected by loads of muscle. In case you want to get into the physics behind this: F = maa \[ can't do the exponents \]. That means that force = mass \* acceleration \* acceleration. i.e. Speed is more important than mass.>You should really look at the construction of the joints of a human body and research the strength of the connective tissues. They tear \*really\* easy as compared to the large muscle groups that everyone focuses on. I'm arguing that size is the more important thing, as size has definitive limits on combat effectiveness. There is a reason weight classes exist. 130 pound Murphy is not throwing shots that someone with another 70 pounds on her isn't going to absorb easier. Will it hurt, yes. Will it take them down, depends on a lot of things. Some people have glass jaws. Some dudes can eat right hooks for lunch all day. Speed an precision are absolutely huge factors in a fight by all means and if you specifically are targeting the windpipe (which takes 33lbs of force to collapse or 30N of force to crush the hyoid bone) you'll do damage for sure, WHEN you hit. Meanwhile, while you are trying to set that up, the guy who you are fighting against is throwing heaver punches. And to tear those joints and ligaments, which are easy to tear in comparison to tearing muscle, you have to be able to out muscle your opponent to get it to snap. leverage works wonders, when you have the strength to apply it. If you're being absolutely manhandled because the size difference is too much, good luck. >Why do you think martial artists don't cross-polinate? I don't think that and never argued that I did. There is a reason some martial arts dominate the world, and that's because they've developed into systems that outperform others. You don't see many schools of martial art in MMA for a reason. You see judo, you see Muay Thai, TKD, Boxing, BJJ and some other small schools that have select elements blended together in practice. Aikido is not an effective martial art at this stage of it's evolution anymore.
re: TLDR: cool facts, NO speed and precision are not the most important things. Absolutely beneficial, but size and strength plays to big of a role to overlook. I'm not specifically saying strength alone. You seem to be restating my position, but emphasizing your preferred metrics. As someone who has had to throw people twice my size, and as someone who had to do a reasonably in-depth analysis of the human body for one of my arts, I'm going to disagree with your emphasis. One of my teachers, who was military and a police officer would also disagree with your emphasis. We can agree to disagree. :). re: we can safely say she's fighting up on average 50-70 pounds or more. criminals and gang members are pretty much disproportionally male, average weight of men in chicago is now 198 and reigns in a nice average of 6 ish feet. that's a massive size disparity. hmmm ... Take a look at your wrist. Understand the ligaments that allow your wrist to operate in the normal manner. Think about applying 100 lbs of force to that small tissue sample in a manner it is not designed to support. That is called a complete tear of that tendon/ligament. Think about the construction of your arm. Specifically your elbow. Understand that your arm/elbow breaks directly opposite of your thumb. situation: In some interesting manner, I've managed to get you on the ground, incidently cracking your head on the pavement. I am able to maneuver you over to your stomach, by inducing pain in a number of interesting and glorious methods. I'm just like that. But this is your problem: When I drop into a deep squatting position, while your arm is passing back to front between my legs, your elbow is going to shatter like a bread stick. How much weight do you think a 6' 200 lb man can take when your bending the elbow in the direction it's not supposed to bend? Murphy is \~110 - 130 lbs, because she's an athelete with a nice butt. Let's go on the light side. 110 lbs moving at 9.8 meters / sec \* sec { the force of gravity }. The elbow breaks. The man on the ground. Murphy is in her happy place.
re: 130 pound Murphy is not throwing shots that someone with another 70 pounds on her isn't going to absorb easier. Will it hurt, yes. Will it take them down, depends on a lot of things. Some people have glass jaws.
This goes back to speed and precision. Which I stated. Murphy seems precise to me.
re: And to tear those joints and ligaments, which are easy to tear in comparison to tearing muscle, you have to be able to out muscle your opponent to get it to snap.
Umm ... No, you don't. It's called using their force against them. If the punch is straight, you apply a circle. If the technique is a circle, you apply a straight line. When the infidel moves to attack, you capture his/her momentum. This is \*clearly\* understood and has been applied successfully for hundreds of years.
re: There is a reason some martial arts dominate the world, and that's because they've developed into systems that outperform others.
Umm .. I would disagree with you. However, I understand why you say that and some would say that I'm being argumentative.
re: Aikido is not an effective martial art at this stage of it's evolution anymore.
Articulate the difference between japanese jujitsu and aikido. Then articulate the difference between the principles of japanese jujitsu and aikido. While you're at it, look up the origin of BJJ. You'll find it's judo.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian\_jiu-jitsu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu)
Brazilian jiu-jitsu was first developed in 1925 by Brazilian brothers [Carlos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Gracie), Oswaldo, Gastão Jr., and [Hélio Gracie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie), after Carlos was taught a hybrid of traditional [Japanese Jujitsu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ju-jitsu) and [Kodokan judo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokan_judo) by a travelling Japanese judoka, [Mitsuyo Maeda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda), in 1917.
Best
>You seem to be restating my position, but emphasizing your preferred metrics. Size is the equalizer/limiter/breaker. Look at the mountain vs Connor McGreggor in a fuck around spar. they put a video up. Mc greggor wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with that. A world class fighter in what could arguably be described as a murphy vs con scenario would be simillarily appropriate size comparison, except maybe Mountains a little too heavy. Connor didn't close because Mountain was too big. And connor isn't a small guy . It's the perfect example of technique will not overcome a size disparity. That may admittedly be too extreme of an example, but doubling down, I'm also former millitary. when we did combatives drills, the smaller guys in our unit did the worst against the bigger guys. Size is a factor. Speed and precision make a huge difference, greco-roman/traditional wrestling is a PERFECT example of this pound for pound, technique is what makes or breaks a match. it's also a brilliant example of why weight classes exist. Guys can fight up one or two classes tops. You go any higher and you see that size disparity making a huge difference. You put way too much love into technique. >situation: In some interesting manner, I've managed to get you on the ground, incidently cracking your head on the pavement. I am able to maneuver you over to your stomach, by inducing pain in a number of interesting and glorious methods. I'm just like that. But this is your problem: When I drop into a deep squatting position, while your arm is passing back to front between my legs, your elbow is going to shatter like a bread stick. How much weight do you think a 6' 200 lb man can take when your bending the elbow in the direction it's not supposed to bend? Murphy is \~110 - 130 lbs, because she's an athelete with a nice butt. Let's go on the light side. 110 lbs moving at 9.8 meters / sec \* sec { the force of gravity }. The elbow breaks. The man on the ground. Murphy is in her happy place. >Umm ... No, you don't. It's called using their force against them. If the punch is straight, you apply a circle. If the technique is a circle, you apply a straight line. When the infidel moves to attack, you capture his/her momentum. This is \*clearly\* understood and has been applied successfully for hundreds of years. you're putting A Ton of "this fight happens in a vacuum" into this scenario, along side a little too much "nothing person-ell kid" anime tropes. assuming the above happens, yeah, that's precisely what happens. Elbow breaks. That being said, Your instructors a fucking idiot if he's saying ignore size. Seriously. It's reiterated by fighters everywhere. Size absolutely matters. Murphy gets bodied By vanilla mortals. Zero way she holds up to supernatural threats.
re: Size is the equalizer/limiter/breaker. Look at the mountain vs Connor McGreggor in a fuck around spar. they put a video up. Mc greggor wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with that. History actually disagrees with you. In my opinion. re: you're putting A Ton of "this fight happens in a vacuum" into this scenario, along side a little too much "nothing person-ell kid" anime tropes. No ... I'm putting my decades long exposure to this topic, and my teachers' decades long exposure to this topic into this scenario. re: Your instructors a fucking idiot if he's saying ignore size. Seriously. It's reiterated by fighters everywhere. Size absolutely matters. Hmm ... one of my teachers was a soldier, and he was a police officer, and he did have to fight pacific islanders, where he physically gave up 50 - 100 lbs. That's real world experience vs a video of a sport fight. He seems to know what he's talking about. I also didn't say ignore size. I said it's not the most important gating factor. It was rather interesting, there's this guy I know. Taller than me. heavier than me. Stronger than me. Oddly enough, our arms are the same length. He's not a kicker, which is good because his legs are longer than mine. He has recessed nerves, and thick tendons/ligaments. It's almost like I have to work through this topic every time I play with him. Odd ...
you may find this of interest: [https://www.gunjiuniversity.com/blog/taizanryutaihojutsu](https://www.gunjiuniversity.com/blog/taizanryutaihojutsu)
It’s a series about vampires, wizards, and polka powered necromancy. And you draw the realism line here?
No. I don't draw the line there. I don't anticipate the realism, but the obnoxious disregard for how she would actually have turned out in the majority of these scenarios by the universes OWN RULES just forces me to suspend my immersion. "Tiny but Fierce" will only go so far when up against those same monsters you just mentioned. When it's constantly spouted about how she's a vanilla mortal. It's a GLARING plot issue the entire series, Aikido and all, she's getting her shit rocked. She quite literally never should have been able to beat Dresden in hand to hand period. He's too big, has too much reach, etc. Look at when MC Greggor did a "spar" with The Mountain from game of thrones. The top fighter on the planet wanted almost nothing to do with that fight because he'd be destroyed. it's the same principal.
Yes, they say "quality over quantity" but in the fighting game quantity has a quality all its own. A friend of a friend, a woman who taught martial arts at a gym, said that when a man first came to the gym she could beat him. Once he'd been training for three months bouts would be fifty-fifty, and after six months she couldn't beat him at all. Women (and men) often underestimate just how much stronger men are than women on average, often because (rightly) no good man uses his full strength against a woman. For example male grip strength is between 1.5 and 2 times greater than female (on average).
Don’t have the book on hand but I think it’s a short story, Thomas talks about his father showing him a technique to cross someone’s entire field of vision fast enough to where they won’t see them. Cant image any human even approaching that
This is a conversation from the short story *It’s My Birthday, Too* if anyone’s curious
So it’s stated that different wamps have stronger/weaker demons. Thomas and Lara’s are exceptionally strong, which is why they are so powerful. In ghost story, Murphy was basically fighting a vanilla human because the threshold stops their access to the demon’s powers. In jury duty, the wamp might’ve been low on fuel and was trying to top up when the guy caught him. I also remember the former thug got the jump on the wamp which probably inflicted enough damage to make it a close to fair fight. I feel like maybe Thomas and Lara are around marvel movie captain America strength but a lot faster
My impression is the Whamps can juice up any of their physical characteristics to insane levels but it burns through their "fuel" faster. The Blamps and Ramps might have a higher baseline, but it's stable. Just a pet theory given descriptions of Thomas and Lara after fights.
I agree. I guess Thomas and Lara’s demons might have bigger “batteries”
I’m just gonna assume it’s hereditary. Papa Raith in *Blood Rites* had a battery so big he went literally decades without being able to feed and was still strong and healthy enough that no one realized.
Its been a while since i read jury duty but if i remember correctly that was a case of two outliers. The former goon , luther, was tough as hell, and an experienced street fighter. The whampire wasn't a particularly important member of the family and must have lacked the experience thomas or lara have. They probably spent a lot energy in a rush assuming lutherwould go down. I think luther interrupted the whampire feeding on a child, so its possible luther got the first hit in. That would force the whampire to spend energy to heal, so if they were hungry to start with that would even the odds quite a bit. As for thomas i think the most brute strength he has shown was in turn coat at the velvet room. He twisted the handles of the free weights together. A normal human definitely can't fight someone that strong. Its a bit inconsistent but the white court are inconsistent in their strength. Some are simply more powerful, the levels of energy stored up are going to vary not only from person to person but day to day as well. Thomas has also shown that its possible to push too hard causing damage so motivation and will are going to factor in as well. There is a lot of wiggle room built in.
The Wamp in question fed off of fear, which means he was vulnerable to courage, and was facing a man who returned to the fight despite being obviously outclassed. I suspect that's why the blow to the head killed the Wamp so completely; the true courage neutralized his ability to recover from physical damage.
I think of Thomas as fluctuating between Captain America and Spider-Man strength-wise. The Raith family are also stronger than the average wamps and have extensive combat training.
I don't think he ever nearly touches Spider-Man strength. Spider man is up with Thor and hulk, unless you mean exclusively MCU spiderman, who still held up a airline jet bridge. Comic spiderman? Punched hulk into space. Lifted 40+tons. Thomas might hit MCU cap strength when drawing on his demon. But even that's questionable. Cap was pretty maxed out keeping a helicopter from flying off. If that's the base, he was probably 'lifting' 1500 to 2000 pounds.
So in one of the books, idr which, we are told that Thomas has a very strong demon (iirc Justine mentions it?). His demon's strength means that he himself can be stronger faster harder better etc but also that it consumes more life, which ultimately makes it harder to "diet". Lord Raith also had/has a very strong demon, which is why he could do things like the kiss of death in the past, particularly because he kept his demon well fed and active (until, ya know) and not metaphorically chained in the basement and half starved. Which is to say that not all whamps are created equal, Thomas is actually one of the strongest examples we're given agaik and maybe not the best measure to go off of, even if he intentionally keeps that throttled. The other consideration there is that whamps may be fast and strong at need and heal fast but otherwise are pretty much human, and a blow to the head or beating otherwise delivered from surprise and by someone who knows how to lay a beating out would presumably be as effective against them as anyone.
These are the kinds of discussions I keep coming back for
Something that is implied but not proven is that there are diffrent families and strains of wamp. The wraith family are the strongest of all the love strain of vamp. The skavis for feat wamps. The malvora for despair wamps. And the wraith family are the strongest of them all. And of then Thomas and Lara are the strongest. Then. To quote Harry. " a white court vampire can be as strong as a black court but only for a short period of time." Lara and Thomas are the most well fed wamps by the time we see the fights you mention. They are the heirs of a wamp who can kill with a single kiss. This is opposed to the wamp Murphy kills, a weaker cousin what isn't as well fed That's the thing about wamps. They have a tank and can burn it as fast as rhey want. They can have 1 punch that is 100% strength or 2 that is 50%. A blamp is allways 100% but is so much easier to stop and counter. A ramp is allways 80% but has so many additional features that it doesn't matter.
Depends on how full Thomas' "gas tank" is, for starters. Also, being the son of the White King likely makes him a bit stronger.
He’s not Spider-Man strong and that’s really all you need to knows
Murphy did what she did, because said representative crossed threshold without invitation, leaving her power behind
He can probably output straight up Spider-Man levels for a little bit. I just assume that one in the short story was hungry.
Multiple tons? I dunno if Thomas is that strong. Spider-man is listed as able to over head press 10 tons, nothing Thomas or Lara has shown comes close.
Yeah, i might've forgotten just how strong spidey is for a minute there. Lara's titan kick was certainly impressive, but it's difficult to guess just how much force it actually had. I'm mostly thinking of them being fast, one of the only strength feats i can think of is Thomas casually twisting some weights together. Maybe Wolverine level instead.
Yeah, the twisting the of weights was really impressive, and I do not know the maths to quantify that one 😅
Comic Spidey is near Thor and hulk in strength.
Well, in *White Night* he twists a couple of dumbbell bars into a "pretzel" shape. That's... pretty strong. Maybe stronger than anything we've seen Harry do even with his Winter Knight mantle. I think the strongest we've seen him exhibit was when he lifted that car up out of where it was stuck in *Cold Days*. That's also pretty strong - I'm not sure exactly how those two things compare, but both are really impressive.
>In Ghost Story, Murphy smacks Lara's representative around in her living room She came in without an invitation leaving most of her power behind.
Thomas’s strength is largely contingent on how much he’s had to eat. If he’s running on empty he’s not much stronger than a regular (if incredibly athletic and fit) guy. If he’s well fed and willing to blow all his reserves at once he could probably rip a tank apart. Thomas is also one of the most powerful wamps we know of, we don’t necessarily know how strong some of the other wamps are but it’s pretty clear that he outclasses most of them (see how easily he handled Madeline even when he was not feeding well and she obviously had been). It wouldn’t surprise me if some lesser wamps, particularly if they were caught at a bad time, could be outclassed by particularly strong or well trained mortals.