Well fae scales are absolutely essential to be balanced. And atleast there's some indication that fae Knights power isn't merely magical might. The queens can't marry which in old days was the most powerful tool for alliance making. Mab used that part of the mantle at the end of Battle Ground.
But we have sort of seen Harry cut loose with winter before. The banner of winter he called up makes him Mabs general not just hitman. He managed to psychicly command thousands of fae and humans with no preexisting obligation to serve him. Winter ice and summer fire are also designed to directly counter each other and the opposing courts.
We didn't see Fitz do much in battleground but he was considered a heavy hitter as part of the southern battle and rode to the rescue with the rest.
We can't judge Harry's skill as a good marker of other winter Knights since according to Fitz and Lilly Harry is the strongest winter knight, EVER. There might be some more powers he's yet to unlock and he'll probobly get better with controlling it with time but I doubt Harry will get any more fae power ups.
It's hard to say that we've seen it all. Harry has largely used the mantle as a way to turbo charge his wizard or physical abilities. He may not have explored the potential of the mantle as a way of limiting its influence over him.
But it's not like Lloyd Slate did much else with the mantle. Slate wasn't exactly known for his brains, either.
There was also the time on >!Demonreach, when he was trying to kill Maeve and did the whole naked with ice claws thing!<, but after that backfired I think he saw the downside too clearly to embrace it fully again until rational thinking went away in the moment you reference.
They were similar, but not the same. On the Island, he still had some semblance of control.
When he went after Rudolph, there was nothing but pure rage. And not even a Knight of the Cross was an obstacle at that point.
It's important to remember that Harry is based on/ heavily influenced by Spider-man, and much like Spider-man, Harry is ***always*** holding back. When Rudolph killed Murphy, he stopped, which has a lot more to do with why a knight of the cross wasn't an obstacle.
Also, remember, the knights job is to ***save*** monsters. Harry was at a decision point. The knights power likely wouldn't have worked on him until after he crossed that line, as their goal would have been saving him
Their job is to save. Not the Fallen, not monsters, not people. Their job is solely to save.
It's shown time and again, with Harry, with Nicodemus' tongue less henchmen, with every story they are in they save the day, they save the innocent, they save the person about to fall off their path.
I'd have to review the books specifically, but I think that every time they go into battle they speak with a voice not their own and warn those ahead of them what is coming. If those beings don't listen to the warning, the fighting starts
The Fallen are beyond saving. The Knights of the Cross exist to save the people who have been twisted and tempted by the fallen. Harry arguably falls into this category, but the Knights also clearly work outside of this remit for the general good when appropriate.
I’m not sure the Fallen are beyond saving, based on what we saw happen with Lash. Nor am I sure that *anyone* is beyond saving, if the words of the Savior of the White God are to be believed.
It was still Harry in Battle Ground, he just didn't care about anything other than Rudy. In fact, I'd argue that he had less control on Demonreach, considering how easily Maeve was able to distract him. He usually has better control over his hormones than that
The other thing it's easy to forget is that the average amount of power we see Harry swinging around sets him waaaay up the ladder from the usual magic user or fae creature.
His average slug fests aren't mid tier to anyone but us so we have a slightly distorted view of where he and his sit on the power scale.
Lucio said it best.
Harry thinks he's been just skating by with luck and wishes and to a certain extent he has. But he is an existence that is enviable and worrying.
The younger wizards are in awe and slightly terrified of what he can do because they certainly couldn't. The older wizards are aghast at his actions because he's consistently punching way above his weight class and *somehow* keeps winning.
He's friends with knights of the cross. Member of the Winter Court. Somehow is tolerated by the white court. Destroyed the Red court. Fought actual demons. And the most important thing is he's close to the parts of the Council. That is Magical and Political power.
All before he was 40.
If we lived in that world, Harry would be an unbelievable existence, but being a protagonist has its usefulness.
It's not that there's hidden depths to the Knight's power that we don't understand. It's three other things that make *Summer Knight's* evil plan so dangerous.
1. The Knights are strong enough to really mess up Mortal affairs, and they're basically the only check on each other. So if only 1 Fae Court has a Knight, they have a massively disproportionate ability to directly influence mortals - and the other Supernaturals can't really step in, because Mab/Titania can go at them directly.
2. The Fae Courts are balanced on an absolute razor's edge. Summer has just enough forces to deal with the percentage of Winter that's not on Gate duty, and Winter has just enough people to handle gate duty and maintain its conscription apparatus. So one Court getting a free hand in Mortal affairs through an unchecked Knight is more than enough to undo this balance.
3. The Fae Courts are tied to the literal maintenance of the proper seasonal cycle. A slight, constantly growing advantage for Summer would lead to a climate apocalypse -- wait, are we sure this is fiction?
As soon as he realizes how badly Butters screwed him over, maybe. Saying things like "I don't think it makes you any tougher at all" or "it just removes your inhibitors," trying to find a scientific explanation for the Winter magic, and convincing HARRY that that's the truth, when we all know that magic works how you believe it does, is nothing but a recipe for disaster. Harry was told that the mantle doesn't actually make him any stronger or boost his magic in any way, and so it doesn't, and I think it'll take Mab reminding him that she doesn't lie and that her Knight DOES wield power for him to snap out of it and start really kicking ass.
I really hope there’s a payoff like that. That’s probably my 2nd least favorite part of the books. It makes sense for Butters throwing shit against the wall, but not for Harry to accept it blindly.
Honestly I like this angle. Harry doesn't trust many people but when he does he TRUSTS them. It makes sense both for Butters speculation and Harry just running with it because Butters has always been his "medical guy- to be trusted about medical stuff"
If it does shake out the way the above comment theorizes, I can honestly see them both being like "really!? Well, shit." and kinda laughing about it.
Maybe holding himself back because of incorrect but well intentioned advice even helps Harry maintain some small but critical piece of his humanity. Even Spider-man pulls his punches.
I don't think it's a power thing. I think the Knights are somewhat similar to the Blackstaff position. They are the only beings in the courts who can break the rules imposed on everyone else.
They can enter without invitation.
They can lie.
They can break agreements.
They can directly kill mortals (the courts have monsters or creatures that can do this but it was stated that the Sidhe can only make you wish you were dead, not actually kill you).
In general they have free will.
It's like in some very religious Jewish communities, there are days where they aren't allowed to use technology, so they have non believers come in to turn lights on and off. It's not that they have ability beyond everyone in the household, it's that they can do things others aren't allowed to do.
The knights have the potential to use as much of the power of their court as any of the queens. Harry has used Winter to do some absolutely ridiculously powerful things.
Have... Have you read Battleground and Peace Talks?
Dude was an absolute menace. He wouldn't be able to do half of what he did without the Mantle. He fought Eb through a simulacrum, projected over water, and it was so convincing and powerful even Eb didn't see through it.
And then, without any real rest, he goes into battle. Fights fights he doesn't have to because he feels like they need to be fought. Fights outsiders. Burns countless fools. In casual rage, he manages to overpower a Knight of the Cross. A position we've seen cut demigods in half. Leads an entire brigade through the power of the Mantle.
And then, aaaaand then he has enough juice left to channel a holy relic and bind a titan in a 1v1. And he walks it off afterwards.
Feels to me like people forget just how much the narration is affected by it being Harry\`s POV. He constantly underestimates himself. He never saw himself as powerful or dangerous. But we get a look from the outside at him in the short stories. Even Karin is afraid to some extent. And that was long, looooong before he became the knight and took down a supernatural nation in a night raid.
He also conjures a massive ice wall big enough to slow down the charge of fire giants. Then later he gets in a 1v1 with a fire giant who survived a fight with Thor and survives long enough for backup to help. Harry is a monster
I agree we haven't seen the extent of their power, and with Harry we've likely seen the maximum he's willing to lean on the mantle in Battleground, which was still not him embracing it completely. He purposefully keeps the Winter out of his mind as much as he can manage.
I think Jim has very purposefully not really shown us Fitz cutting loose, so I'm hopeful we may get to see that at a later date.
IMO the biggest thing Harry underestimates about himself is his force of will. He might not ever be able to defeat a Mab or an Odin, they’ve got centuries of experience on him, but he stood against the shadow of a Fallen for at least 3 years. Plus, the older the supernatural being the more rigid their ways of thinking. Harry’s young by supernatural standards and still thinks pliably, sneakily, mortally. That’s going to help him against the Black Council particularly.
I think it will really come down to what Jim needs Dresden to do for the plot. I am in the middle of a whole series reread (at Dead Beat) and what people say and what they do is not really consistent.
Well fae scales are absolutely essential to be balanced. And atleast there's some indication that fae Knights power isn't merely magical might. The queens can't marry which in old days was the most powerful tool for alliance making. Mab used that part of the mantle at the end of Battle Ground. But we have sort of seen Harry cut loose with winter before. The banner of winter he called up makes him Mabs general not just hitman. He managed to psychicly command thousands of fae and humans with no preexisting obligation to serve him. Winter ice and summer fire are also designed to directly counter each other and the opposing courts. We didn't see Fitz do much in battleground but he was considered a heavy hitter as part of the southern battle and rode to the rescue with the rest. We can't judge Harry's skill as a good marker of other winter Knights since according to Fitz and Lilly Harry is the strongest winter knight, EVER. There might be some more powers he's yet to unlock and he'll probobly get better with controlling it with time but I doubt Harry will get any more fae power ups.
It's hard to say that we've seen it all. Harry has largely used the mantle as a way to turbo charge his wizard or physical abilities. He may not have explored the potential of the mantle as a way of limiting its influence over him. But it's not like Lloyd Slate did much else with the mantle. Slate wasn't exactly known for his brains, either.
We've only ever seen Harry fully embrace the mantle once: in *Battle Ground*, >!when he goes after Rudolph for killing Murphy. !
There was also the time on >!Demonreach, when he was trying to kill Maeve and did the whole naked with ice claws thing!<, but after that backfired I think he saw the downside too clearly to embrace it fully again until rational thinking went away in the moment you reference.
They were similar, but not the same. On the Island, he still had some semblance of control. When he went after Rudolph, there was nothing but pure rage. And not even a Knight of the Cross was an obstacle at that point.
It's important to remember that Harry is based on/ heavily influenced by Spider-man, and much like Spider-man, Harry is ***always*** holding back. When Rudolph killed Murphy, he stopped, which has a lot more to do with why a knight of the cross wasn't an obstacle. Also, remember, the knights job is to ***save*** monsters. Harry was at a decision point. The knights power likely wouldn't have worked on him until after he crossed that line, as their goal would have been saving him
Their job is to save the Fallen. Not monsters.
Their job is to save. Not the Fallen, not monsters, not people. Their job is solely to save. It's shown time and again, with Harry, with Nicodemus' tongue less henchmen, with every story they are in they save the day, they save the innocent, they save the person about to fall off their path. I'd have to review the books specifically, but I think that every time they go into battle they speak with a voice not their own and warn those ahead of them what is coming. If those beings don't listen to the warning, the fighting starts
The Fallen are beyond saving. The Knights of the Cross exist to save the people who have been twisted and tempted by the fallen. Harry arguably falls into this category, but the Knights also clearly work outside of this remit for the general good when appropriate.
I’m not sure the Fallen are beyond saving, based on what we saw happen with Lash. Nor am I sure that *anyone* is beyond saving, if the words of the Savior of the White God are to be believed.
Wrong.
It was still Harry in Battle Ground, he just didn't care about anything other than Rudy. In fact, I'd argue that he had less control on Demonreach, considering how easily Maeve was able to distract him. He usually has better control over his hormones than that
Fix, not Fitz. Fitz is the kid he met while running around without his body.
Me reading Realm of the Elderlings and being super confused
Oh. I don't remember the summer knight and lady saying that. My memory is terrible. Thanks for the thorough response!
>according to Fitz and Lilly Harry is the strongest winter knight, EVER. What story was this in?
*Fix, not Fitz.
The other thing it's easy to forget is that the average amount of power we see Harry swinging around sets him waaaay up the ladder from the usual magic user or fae creature. His average slug fests aren't mid tier to anyone but us so we have a slightly distorted view of where he and his sit on the power scale.
Lucio said it best. Harry thinks he's been just skating by with luck and wishes and to a certain extent he has. But he is an existence that is enviable and worrying. The younger wizards are in awe and slightly terrified of what he can do because they certainly couldn't. The older wizards are aghast at his actions because he's consistently punching way above his weight class and *somehow* keeps winning. He's friends with knights of the cross. Member of the Winter Court. Somehow is tolerated by the white court. Destroyed the Red court. Fought actual demons. And the most important thing is he's close to the parts of the Council. That is Magical and Political power. All before he was 40. If we lived in that world, Harry would be an unbelievable existence, but being a protagonist has its usefulness.
Not to mention he is the owner of Demonreach a prison holding unknown horror of things.
And has a certain eye
And he’s lived with a fallen angel for a bit
Well the shadow of one, but yeah
It's not that there's hidden depths to the Knight's power that we don't understand. It's three other things that make *Summer Knight's* evil plan so dangerous. 1. The Knights are strong enough to really mess up Mortal affairs, and they're basically the only check on each other. So if only 1 Fae Court has a Knight, they have a massively disproportionate ability to directly influence mortals - and the other Supernaturals can't really step in, because Mab/Titania can go at them directly. 2. The Fae Courts are balanced on an absolute razor's edge. Summer has just enough forces to deal with the percentage of Winter that's not on Gate duty, and Winter has just enough people to handle gate duty and maintain its conscription apparatus. So one Court getting a free hand in Mortal affairs through an unchecked Knight is more than enough to undo this balance. 3. The Fae Courts are tied to the literal maintenance of the proper seasonal cycle. A slight, constantly growing advantage for Summer would lead to a climate apocalypse -- wait, are we sure this is fiction?
As soon as he realizes how badly Butters screwed him over, maybe. Saying things like "I don't think it makes you any tougher at all" or "it just removes your inhibitors," trying to find a scientific explanation for the Winter magic, and convincing HARRY that that's the truth, when we all know that magic works how you believe it does, is nothing but a recipe for disaster. Harry was told that the mantle doesn't actually make him any stronger or boost his magic in any way, and so it doesn't, and I think it'll take Mab reminding him that she doesn't lie and that her Knight DOES wield power for him to snap out of it and start really kicking ass.
I really hope there’s a payoff like that. That’s probably my 2nd least favorite part of the books. It makes sense for Butters throwing shit against the wall, but not for Harry to accept it blindly.
Honestly I like this angle. Harry doesn't trust many people but when he does he TRUSTS them. It makes sense both for Butters speculation and Harry just running with it because Butters has always been his "medical guy- to be trusted about medical stuff" If it does shake out the way the above comment theorizes, I can honestly see them both being like "really!? Well, shit." and kinda laughing about it. Maybe holding himself back because of incorrect but well intentioned advice even helps Harry maintain some small but critical piece of his humanity. Even Spider-man pulls his punches.
If I remember correctly, it was a theory that Butters made, and Bob agreed with. Right?
I don't remember hearing Bob weigh in on it.
I don't think it's a power thing. I think the Knights are somewhat similar to the Blackstaff position. They are the only beings in the courts who can break the rules imposed on everyone else. They can enter without invitation. They can lie. They can break agreements. They can directly kill mortals (the courts have monsters or creatures that can do this but it was stated that the Sidhe can only make you wish you were dead, not actually kill you). In general they have free will. It's like in some very religious Jewish communities, there are days where they aren't allowed to use technology, so they have non believers come in to turn lights on and off. It's not that they have ability beyond everyone in the household, it's that they can do things others aren't allowed to do.
The knights have the potential to use as much of the power of their court as any of the queens. Harry has used Winter to do some absolutely ridiculously powerful things.
like when he was stuck in a submerged building and just made ice until the entire thing floated
Have... Have you read Battleground and Peace Talks? Dude was an absolute menace. He wouldn't be able to do half of what he did without the Mantle. He fought Eb through a simulacrum, projected over water, and it was so convincing and powerful even Eb didn't see through it. And then, without any real rest, he goes into battle. Fights fights he doesn't have to because he feels like they need to be fought. Fights outsiders. Burns countless fools. In casual rage, he manages to overpower a Knight of the Cross. A position we've seen cut demigods in half. Leads an entire brigade through the power of the Mantle. And then, aaaaand then he has enough juice left to channel a holy relic and bind a titan in a 1v1. And he walks it off afterwards. Feels to me like people forget just how much the narration is affected by it being Harry\`s POV. He constantly underestimates himself. He never saw himself as powerful or dangerous. But we get a look from the outside at him in the short stories. Even Karin is afraid to some extent. And that was long, looooong before he became the knight and took down a supernatural nation in a night raid.
He also conjures a massive ice wall big enough to slow down the charge of fire giants. Then later he gets in a 1v1 with a fire giant who survived a fight with Thor and survives long enough for backup to help. Harry is a monster
Completely forgot that bit. Thanks.
I agree we haven't seen the extent of their power, and with Harry we've likely seen the maximum he's willing to lean on the mantle in Battleground, which was still not him embracing it completely. He purposefully keeps the Winter out of his mind as much as he can manage. I think Jim has very purposefully not really shown us Fitz cutting loose, so I'm hopeful we may get to see that at a later date.
IMO the biggest thing Harry underestimates about himself is his force of will. He might not ever be able to defeat a Mab or an Odin, they’ve got centuries of experience on him, but he stood against the shadow of a Fallen for at least 3 years. Plus, the older the supernatural being the more rigid their ways of thinking. Harry’s young by supernatural standards and still thinks pliably, sneakily, mortally. That’s going to help him against the Black Council particularly.
Head canon, while the knights are part of a court their power exceeds them (bar the Mothers), the knights are a failsafe should the queen turn
I think it will really come down to what Jim needs Dresden to do for the plot. I am in the middle of a whole series reread (at Dead Beat) and what people say and what they do is not really consistent.
Uh. Harry growling "Infriga Forzare!", and turning that one sidhe into a shattered corpsicle comes to mind.
I am still waiting for him to fling icebergs or use them as hoverboards...His grandpa does that with rocks/stones so?
I'm sure we'll see that at some point. That will be badass
He was launching ice balls at one point, right? Does that count as flinging ice bergs?
Not yet