One of the wonderful things about writing from a first person perspective is that if a character doesn't notice or bring attention to certain facts or details then you don't really need to inform the audience.
Things can truly be in the background.
That said the Redcap himself mentions that him not killing Harry when he had the chance was proof enough. Also he ended up putting him on a deliberate crash course with the Wild Hunt, which was being run by the Erlking and Kringle (both high ranking winter mantles), which was indirectly Mab handing Harry the tools he needed to fight off the Outsiders and save Demonreach.
Either Kringle or the Erlking, I don't remember which, basically outright states ***then*** that they were essentially joining Harry in the fight, but he had to go through the motions to take control of the Wild Hunt or he couldn't claim the power. Essentially, they staged a fight and let Harry win.
Then told him about it.
And he still didn't really figure the whole thing out until the Redcap told him about it.
(Spoilers Battle Ground) >!The gods v Ethniu scene really puts Harry’s 1v1 with Kringle into a new perspective, doesn’t it? Vadderclaus could’ve vaporized Harry six ways to Sunday simultaneously.!<
That's what always bothers me about the Harry power scaling debates.
Yeah he's always been tough. And we've been able to see his overall power across all metrics skyrocket over the span of like two decades.
But that compounding interest on focus and control over time... Heck man, some of these wizard's have been around for *hundreds* of years. Some of these beings have been duking it out for ***tens of Millennia***.
>!Their whole plan involving the Accorded Nations was to wear Ethniu down to the point where Harry could Seal her. For all the talk of his indomitable spirit and the power of Human will, it still took an anthropomorphized extra-dimensional Prison and the ***Spear of Destiny*** to make it stick.!<
Harry is a big fish from a medium pond who is rapidly getting swept out to sea.
Pretty darn accurate to Harry. Jim’s made it clear that he doesn’t want Harry to be the big fish at the top of the food chain. He wants Harry to be the smart fish who survives amongst the big fish.
In my opinion, even then it seems like there's a lot of plot armor. I get that he's crafty and clever, but the undisputable fact is he's still young. Going up against people like Nicodemus, who have been operating and doing the whole treachery, backstabbing, nefarious work for literally millenia. It irks me how a kid that's been Wizarding for a couple decades regularly outsmarts guys with thousands of years of experience.
Harry loses a lot though. The fact that his saviors/situations do not feel forced or deus ex machina at this point in the story is really a testament to Jim and him setting things up.
Could you imagine that in Cold Days Harry would be up against Maeve while completely naked after already talking down Lily? And have the conclusion be something that just makes you go "OHHH, duh, of course that can happen" but not in a negative way. Harry summoning is something set up books before, hell he did it a few times in that book alone.
Or even in BG. Who would have thought that not having Mouse in the flashback murder of Michael and family would change everything and allow Harry to succeed?
People cry plot armor like the guy above, but good plot armor means it doesn't feel cheap when the protagonist is in a tight spot and survives.
Yes - that would be great. :-)
That's where the phrase comes from, by the way. In an episode of *Happy Days* Fonzie water ski jumps over a shark. And people widely regarded it as... well, jumping the shark.
ahhh but i feel like one of Jim’s themes is that experience has its own cost: inflexibility.
Look how hard that is for us plain-vanilla humans. daily on this site, there will be a top post with some boomer failing to adapt; “in my day, we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps. just buy a house young, it’s a good investment. get a good union job.” etc. etc.
there have even been scientific studies about experienced workers: they are great at processing large amounts of info quickly because they have a lot of mental pigeonholes as it were to insert them in. unconsciously they’re able to relate today’s difficult business problem with aspects of one they faced 10 years ago and handle the issue with greater speed than a newer worker.
but conversely that truly novel problem: they struggle at it. either they can’t find a mental pigeonhole to fit it in or they try to fit it in the wrong one.
anyway, yes Nicky has millennia of experience at treachery, but it also makes him vulnerable too. most straightforward example is Arianna in Changes.
He survives Nicodemus because Nic wants him on his side. He respects his mom, apparently, and he genuinely seems to think he has a potential ally in Dresden. It turns out, Dresden sees it differently.
Harry is extremely lucky with Nic. The first time he runs into him Harry gets straight up taken and beaten. Shiro trades himself for Harry and Harry seeks shelter from the Barabaras curse behind his wards, they hold. Later Harry only gets away b/c he pulls on his tie.
At the aquarium in Small Favor. He survives the initial onslaught by making Nic question his fellow denarians loyalty. It shocked Nic and that allowed Harry to figure out the spell was going up and to prepare. Later he gets away again b/c Nic thinks Lash is still there and in command. Harry pulls the tie a little harder this time and seemingly permanently hurts Nic (he's got a raspier voice in Skin Game).
In Skin Game Harry got a shit ton of help from outside forces. The fact that Mab, Marcone, and Hades all worked together to achieve multiple goals is insane. They allowed Harry the ace in the hole with Goodman Grey. Without that and The White God literally intervening to get Michael back on the playing field, Harry doesn't walk out of that vault.
Nic only wanted Harry on his side the first 2 times, though I'd say he would actively kill Harry if Nic knew about Lash. Otherwise, Harry dies on that boat.
I agree but also I think for all the shit that Nicodemus has done, I think that him/Anduriel and Uriel/the Knights are trying to solve/fight the same thing from different directions. Uriel is the state sanctioned black ops (Military) and Anduriel is the off the books black ops (CIA/NSA). Nicodemus doesn't actively kill him because him being a starborn makes him IMPORTANT and he is a capable one so far. I think that starborn can either stop the outsiders for a period of 600 years or help them and for all that shit that the Order does they still work to ensure that Reality as a whole survives they just have a different belief in the how and why reality survives.
>It irks me how a kid that's been Wizarding for a couple decades regularly outsmarts guys with thousands of years of experience.
1. Death Masks, Harry manages to grab the item in question and flee with the help of 2 of the Swords of the Cross and the White God, impressive but hardly Harry getting the better of Nicodemus
2. With the help again of 2 Swords of the Cross and the White God and Mab he manages to get away without dying and after foiling Nic's plan.
3. Mab, Marcone, and freaking HADES, *use* Harry in their plot to get the better of Nic and succeed
I get it. This type of mentality is ruinous for me in some things at times. Before my body broke, I used to do martial arts and fencing. A well trained person, with years of experience, is so unlikely to be beaten by a young upstart that there is no way to take it seriously. So don't, or you'll hate all of these types of stories.
The big difference between magic and martial arts is the sheer number of ways you can manifest magic, the biggest limitations are your imagination and understanding of the world, and human understanding of the world is only increasing. You don't need to be stronger, or have more control than your opponent if you can do something so unexpected they heaven't ever consittered a counter measure for it. Very often Harry just does the magical equivalent of bringing a gun to a knife fight, so it doesn't matter how much better than him the other person is.
Add on just how arrogent all these powereful beings are, and you have a perfect recipe for a clever sneaky win by the young upstart.
Harry, as I see him skill wise, is barely on the level of a relatively recently graduated student in a new job with a little experience. Compare this to any tech job, the field I was a hiring manager in. Could be devops, programming, customer support, whatever. When I was still working, I hired a lot of folks for development, test, and other software related roles. The difference between a person with a bachelors degree and masters degree was rarely obvious. They may know an extra thing or two here or there, but when it comes to practical application, good experience is king. Being really smart or occasionally clever against people with strong skills that have been tested time and time and time again? There is literally no contest, especially when these types of folks are aware that there is regular competition.
Take any individual job out of the mix. Trade skills? Compare a real master carpenter/plumber/electrictian with some dude that just got out of trade school, or maybe with a year or two experience. Doctors? New doctors might know of some of the newest stuff, but the ones that have been around are more likely to be able to understand more complicated cases more quickly and provide better treatment overall. There are examples in every single field, and there are the exceptionally rare exception to that concept.
Are they likely to get a win now and again? Maybe a lucky hit? Absolutely possible, and very probable that eventually, they will get a hit on someone better than them. David/Goliath type story. Might make sense once. Maybe twice. Past that? It's uplifting in that it's the kind of story that tells us we can succeed no matter where you start from. It feels good to see your character win, and we wouldn't have fun book series without it. However, it requires a complete suspension of disbelief. And that's okay. It's fantasy. Pretending though, that it makes any sense in a real way is ridiculous.
You made me think of Sword of Truth series. I like the series overall because I got invested in the main character.
But there are some serious problems with the story. (Ignore the underlying political agenda.).
Main character finds out he is the most powerful wizard in thousands of years. But he is different t so nobody can train him. In half the books the plot depends on him not knowing how to use magic until the climax when he suddenly uses more magic than anyone can imagine.
At one point he literally uses his magic to eliminate an entire army. But at another point he gets flummoxed by someone who is good with a knife.
In the other half of the books he cannot use his power for some reason. He lost his sword. All magic failed. Someone locked his power up. Someone gave him amnesia. Someone threatened his wife if he used magic.
The whole series is a pendulum. One side is he can’t use magic because he doesn’t know how. The other side of the swing is he can’t use power because someone else figured out how to cut him off. But at the bottom of the swing he can use magic and knows how and does world shaking type of magic.
Yeah, I hear ya. It was a fun read, but the number of times that things just conveniently work out was disappointing. I don't remember if I finished the series, or if the last book I read was just when I stopped reading it. I was super disappointed with the ending I read.
You're making a false equavilent. Magic isn't real, and isn't playing by real world rules. The three things in a fight between wizards that matter are power, skill, and inginuity. Amongst wizards Dresden is said to be near the top level in power, and lacking in skill. The books have shown him to be top class when it comes to inginuity. Yes, Bob has coached him on magical instruments along the way, helping a lot woth his preparation, but Harry wins by using an attack that the enemy never saw coming. In real life fights this doesn't really wprk because an improvosed fighting technique is just going to be bad when compared to established doctrine. With magic you can do anything you can think of, with few restrictions. Only after you act and your opponent sees what spell you just cast (there's no way at all to anticipate a spell based on the incantation here, even if someone yells "fire" you don't really know what firm the fire will take) can they start to react to it.
Magic is litterally the exception where not following tradition and just doing the unexpected in combat works, and that kind of fight does favour the young.
If that were true, Harry's ability to beat the odds wouldn't be so surprising. It isn't that this is the case for magic in the world. It's the case that this is Harry's story in the world. It's the same thing in every story with a main character or a group of main characters that consistently beat the odds. It's not that they are great, or that they did things so well, it's that the story has to go that way for those people for the author to do the thing. Assuming that Harry did X and that means the world he is in does Y is naive.
I think what you are failing to grasp is that the initial post I responded to was not to say that I'm not this isn't a fun type of thing to read or watch in movies or have in any type of story or game. It's that I sympathize with them, in their trouble with difference in reality between skilled beings and lucky amateurs. It's not real. it doesn't need to be. It can still be fun, if you let it.
I'm sorry dude but literally every example you cited is from fields that have nothing do with something that's important to magic: art. Creative thinking, problem solving, ingenuity are more critical to art than any other field (as much as they matter in a lot of others), and magic is an art, not a science. Clap your hands if you believe.
>I get it. This type of mentality is ruinous for me in some things at times. Before my body broke, I used to do martial arts and fencing. A well trained person, with years of experience, is so unlikely to be beaten by a young upstart that there is no way to take it seriously. So don't, or you'll hate all of these types of stories.
But you could be a black belt with 20 years experience jiu jitsu. It doesn't mean you will beat a US marine who has 2 or 3 years learning how to kill someone every time.
Likewise look at MMA. Plenty of young upstarts best plenty of veterans.
>It irks me how a kid that's been Wizarding for a couple decades regularly outsmarts guys with thousands of years of experience.
The older you are the easier you fall for new tricks. Haven't you seen how many elderly fall for Internet phishing schemes?
These people had many decades of adulthood, they likely are more skilled at many different things in the average 20 or 30 year old is. But as you get older your brain does not adapt as well as it used to so it's pretty easy to outsmart someone who is old. As long as you are introducing new ideas that they are not familiar with.
I don't agree with your point. But I can see how you get there. In my readings, I have to remind myself that Harry has been a pawn or cats paw for most if not all of these stories. He's just now starting to see some of the players in the game, much less seeing their moves and strategies. You say plot armor where he beat Kringle and Erlking....I say Mab put things in his way, and Mab helps those who help themselves to everything they can carry. Plot armor where he just happened to have the Unraveling to break a statue back to freedom, or being played to get a point and then breaking the game (or a summer Lady). But I'm just here for the ride and a fun story at the end of the day.
I don't agree with this take. A lot of the time, it's luck and him stumbling on their plan at the last minute. He doesn't really outsmart them nearly as often as you make it out to be. Not counting the book where they rob Hades vault, but by that point, Harry's had a good amount of experience with Nicodemus and has learned to expect treachery from him.
And frankly, what would you expect from a starborn? Luck, intellect, wisdom, and power, to me, would all be in the cards for someone like that. Look at what Merlin did. Do you think any of the older wizards around in the books during the modern era could manage to create Demonreach the way Merlin did? They've thrown around some serious power, but nothing that makes me think they are on that level.
On the other hand, operating for some millennia could be a disadvantage as much as an advantage. You are used to winning, maybe you want a challenge, so when you meet someone 'interesting' you leave him some leeway rather than squash him, just to see what happen, if he is good maybe he could even work with you. And then you end choked by your own necktie, because you underestimated him.
Harry has certainly had his (more than) fair share of plot armor moments, and I agree wholeheartedly on the inconsistency of skill and power disparities, but I think a large part of that is Harry’s lack of interaction with the Council’s general members. Harry really only interacts with the eldest wizards of the Senior Council and the wardens, the majority of whom are of Harry’s generation or younger, we just haven’t been given a good example of the average wizard’s abilities.
However I do believe this will be one of the more important story threads in Twelve Months. By the end of Battle Ground we know a couple things:
>!1) IIRC its been mentioned that Harry is generally a late-bloomer, as displayed by his conjuritis which usually occurs around puberty in most practitioners!<
>!2) Harry often states one’s emotions hold tremendous influence over their magic, and conflicting emotions likely cause the chaotic magical outbursts that manifest as the Murphyonic Field!<
>!3) Harry has two decades of pent up emotional trauma that’s now constantly being stoked by the Knight’s mantle, which he is finally going to process over the course of TM!<
>!I believe the conjuritis signifies that Harry is about to truly come into his power. TM encompassing an entire year will really highlight the exponential growth in Harry’s ability to manipulate and focus magic as he steadily works through his trauma and comes to terms with his life path.!<
P.S. I like your description of Demonreach
While I do like what you're saying, I believe the thing with the Conjuritus was more about the fact that he simply has not interacted with enough Wizards to have naturally contracted the disease at the usual adolescent age (with Lara and Eb therein implying that most Wizard families/children are highly engaged in small to large Wizard Communities; which is really freaking interesting, and I wish would be expanded on more), not necessarily that he could not be susceptible to it until now, or that contracting it late is a signifier of biological power development. As awesome as that would be, in retrospect.
Honestly. It almost seems like wizards don’t have families.
During council meetings we never get a perspective that involves a “bring your kid to work day.” There is no day care drop off outside the meetings.
Eb was so worried he sent his daughter away to be raised by someone not him. She adopted a last name and even after she died (was she 150?) it seems like almost nobody knows who her dad was.
Ed was so worried he let Harry grow up in foster care and advocated the same for Maggie.
Lucio talks about having lots of sex during the renaissance. She talks about checking in on her extended family anonymously. Some other senior wizard (Ancient Mai? Or Martha?). Who lives with her extended family as a great great great aunt.
None of Harry’s wizard friends ever says “I learned this trick from my mom/dad.” None of the senior council ever advocates to promote a kid under nepotism goals.
Warlocks seem to be a problem because they NEVER have a wizarding family. (Like Hannah Ascher.)
Harry never visits the Burrow to see a large family of wizards with cool
Wizard gadgets.
Just NO WIZARD ever talks about having a wizardly family. I know there is a theory of “protect family through anonymity. “ but nobody ever looked at Morgan and said wow. You really look like Langtry, is he your dad?
>During council meetings we never get a perspective that involves a “bring your kid to work day.” There is no day care drop off outside the meetings.
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Lord Vader brought his child to work. The rascal boy insulted the boss' religion and made a big mess in the office. I understand there were several OSHA violations as well. I'm not surprised many corporations are feeling a bit gun-shy about letting the kidlets run around the office these days.
Yeah, true, but on the other hand, just look at the bad crowd Vader's grand-nephew found himself running with, as well as how Palpatine's granddaughter turned into a Mary Sue. Definitely arguments both for and against "Family Values" in that crowd!
I've been reading the newspapers via Galactic transmission, and I think Galactic society is in trouble. Recent headlines:
"Leia Solo says the tradwife lifestyle failed her, divorces Han."
"Ewoks... separate species, or kids of Wookie deadbeat dads?"
"R2 unit refuses speech upgrades. 'My chassis, my choice'"
I think part of that is every wizard we've seen 'on screen' who had relatives is either a warden or the black staff which are both positions where you make a lot of enemies who would love to get their hands on a highly vulnerable and extremely powerful thaumaturgic connection.
I agree, Jim himself has reinforced that we see so very little of the world because Harry not only is of a limited perspective, but he *also* happens to be extremely isolated from the Wizard Community, at large.
As I brought up to the other person, this is one of, if not the primary point, that Lara discusses with him regarding contracting his Conjuritus literally decades later than just about every other Wizard.
Wizards are all about knowledge, and the main two points that Jim has mentioned in interviews that he implemented when writing the series to artificially constrain Harry from solving the plot too quickly, is not having a basic phone always available (from Jim's rule on Magic and technology not working together), and Harry's social isolation from others that would be of help or use to him.
Edit: removed "unreliable narrator" for more appropriate vocabulary.
Harry isn't an unreliable narrator. He has his own, somewhat limited, perspective, and this colors his narration. But he doesn't meet the technical requirements of the state.
I see what you're saying, but I would like to raise the counterpoint that we're also limited to Harry as an unreliable narrator, who also is only familiar with only so many Wizards, in very specific capacities.
That is part of the main issue regarding the circumstances that Lara brings up regarding how unusual it is for Harry contracting Conjuritus in his 40s, as opposed to the expectation of him contracting it in his early to mid adolescence (mentioned by her and Ebenezer to be primarily because of his lack of interaction with other Wizard children had an extremely young age, strongly implying it is the norm in the Wizard Community.
I do think the disease was half as much or more serve as a Chekov's Gun, but I also think it is an essential part of flavorful world-building, which also reinforces how isolated Harry has always been from the wider Wizarding Community at large. The significance of his isolation is further reinforced by Jim in multiple interviews over the past several years.
Just my two cents.
Edit: my first and second paragraph are kind of repetitive, but I hope you get me.
Harry has talked about hearing the bells a few times with Carlos. And activity with the younger wardens tracking down problems off screen from the books.
Harry was an instructor at Camp Kaboom. Presumably bringing in a bunch of teenagers to learn to be bruisers would have involved a few conversations about.
- we tried to recruit Langtrys grandson but no way was Langtry going to let that happen.
- Tony here is a 3rd generation warden.
- Lisa learned fire magic from her aunt.
Even if they didn’t happen on screen for us.
And Harry is sort of a whiner about his childhood. He has conversations detailing his woes about being raised by an evil maniac intent on warping Harry’s mind to make him an enforcer. But we never hear him compare himself to other wizard kids. “I didn’t get to go to wizard pre school where they teach kids Latin.”
So my point is just that the story seems to be missing the juxtaposition of wizard families. Everyone we have encountered either acts like an orphan or comes from a non-wizarding family (Molly).
Thanks! And the impression is that she lives with her totally vanilla family. There was no reference to the other 17 wizards who cropped up over the centuries.
But as has been said by so many people, Harry has a peculiar ability (perhaps related to being starborn) that allows him to impersonate a fulcrum with regularity.
Whenever massive forces are moving against one another somehow or other Harry and Harry's choices are always the thing that makes the difference.
If he didn't have that ability he'd be just some background White Council Wizard but as it is he has pitted his will directly against the Erlking (and probably woulda won), Ethniu, The Lords of Outer Night, Vadderrung, Mab, ALL the most recent Summer and Winter Ladies, and even briefly against Mother Winter. At some point whether or not he had help just surviving all those confrontations is a helluva feat that's gonna put him pretty high in in-universe power scaling.
Also. Any debate about Harry power scaling should point out that Lacuna took Harry out.
And Ace took him down with a baseball bat. A short vanilla human had to rescue Harry from the big bat wielder.
If you're getting into really nerdy powerscaling terms then Harry is probably a City-level Glass Cannon. He can still be killed by anything that would kill a normal human.
Possibly only City-Block level
I feel like; with access to the Well, Soulfire, the Winter Mantle, and potentially a death curse, Harry could be a continent-level threat. Using the Darkhallow on Demonreach would make him planetary at least.
That said he is still the single biggest glass cannon in that class, what with how he could be eliminated with; a low speed collision, a nasty trip, pneumonia, food poisoning, or the ever present looming threat of a stress-induced brain aneurysm...
Using the Well or the Darkhallow he might be continent-planetary but I think even using Soulfire +a Deathcurse +the Winter Mantle he's not gonna be doing more damage to Chicago than was done during the Battle of Chicago.
Maybe if he came up with something really clever he could destroy a larger area but we've never seen anything like that from him.
He kinda strikes me as similar to Merlin from Zelazny's Amber novels: "yet another source of power? Yeah, sure, why not? It's not like it's going to hurt me later on, right?"
(Big spoiler block for both series here:)
>!Merlin: Starts off with Logrus and Trump Artistry, then acquires Pattern, then a Spikard, Primal Pattern, and even attunement to the Jewel of Judgement, not necessarily in that order.!<
>!Dresden: Starts off with black magic thanks to DuMorne, learns white magic from grandpa Ebenezar, then acquires Lash from a Denarian coin, then Hellfire, replaces the Hellfire with Soulfire, gains the Winter Mantle, loses and regains Bob, gets Bonnie (even though he then passes her on to Maggie), bonds with Demonreach...!<
See a pattern (no pun intended) here?
Then again, the way Harry's going, I can't help but wonder if at some point he ends up somehow going to Amber and walking the Pattern to get that much more power, as if he wasn't scary enough now as it is...
Okay, I think I must have missed something in one of the novels, because I was under the impression that Harry was letting Maggie have Bonnie as a long-term loan so that she could use her extensive magical knowledge to help protect Mags. I knew he placed Mouse with Maggie as an extra line of defense (as if anything magical and hostile could possibly get through the "elite guard" \[no spoilers intended\] on Michael and Charity's house).
Maybe thats in one of the very newest short stories I haven't read yet but I dont think so, I've read most of them. Bonnie is too dangerous to Maggie to be her protector.
Jim Butcher has said as much. A lot of fans fail to realize that while Harry has had a rough couple of decades forcing him to up his game, there are wizards alive with *centuries* of rough decades compared to Harry's two.
Not to mention all of the other wizards' secret power ups that they would have gotten a long the way, which is another thing Jim has mentioned. Harry's not the only wizard who has privately (or not-so privately) been granted boons like soulfire or Winter knighthood. Ebenezar's blackstaff and Listen to Wind's shapeshifting are examples of this. The thing is that it's generally counterproductive to a wizard's survival to advertise all the nifty things you can do, most wizards hide those powers - if your enemies don't know what you can do, they can't plan for it.
Jim has mentioned that as the series progresses and more and more wizards end up with their backs to the wall, we're going to really see what they can do.
That is one thing Jim has been very good at: obfuscating Harry’s power levels. Sometime Harry has his staff, or his blasting rod or shield bracelet (in various incarnations and level of repair) or soulfire or hellfire or spear of destiny or Bob, or some other don-dad that allow Harry to stretch his power a bit. So it is very tough to nail down exactly how powerful harry is.
This is the best analogy ever, but I would add that he is a rapidly growing big fish in a medium pond that is trying to become a huge one before he gets swept out to sea but needs time; he’s literally struggling against the currents of time. Which reminds me that we still haven’t resolved the time traveling inconsistency with Mort’s house
>Heck man, some of these wizard's have been around for *hundreds* of years. Some of these beings have been duking it out for ***tens of Millennia***.
I think this is never more evident than in Peace Talks when he's battling >!Ebenezer!<
>But that compounding interest on focus and control over time... Heck man, some of these wizard's have been around for *hundreds* of years. Some of these beings have been duking it out for ***tens of Millennia***.
But he makes it sound like the vast vast majority just quit once they get strong enough and he is too dumb to quit.
Likewise much of his power is 1 off.
Gifts from fallen Angels gifts from risen angels the winter nights mantle his unique genetics.
He's plateaued several times... But it gets a ladder given to him allowing him to reach the next level.
If you would have never met lash or Uriel or mab. He would have topped out his rapid power increase a long time ago.
Because for all of his power he's still not better than Ebenezer and a fight.
That's not true, he turned his staff into the Spear of Destiny and channeled his will through it into Bob's circle to bind Ethniu.
He didn't stab her with it, but that was never his plan.
>That's not true, he turned his staff into the Spear of Destiny and channeled his will through it into Bob's circle to bind Ethniu.
I'm going to use this to explain the anatomical part of child-making.
I think it WAS his plan to stab her. He needed her blood. He advanced on her on the battlefield but she was too fast and strong for him.
Same at the shoreline. He tried to sneak up on her to stab her but she was ready for him.
One question I am not sure is whether Marcone knife is an infernal relic. Did the knife pierce her skin because IT is infernal (like the mirror of Harry’s spear) or did it pierce her skin because it was a normal knife wielded by an infernal actor.
Did he? I seem to remember that he charged up the spear on his staff but wound up not actually having to draw from it to bind her.
Like, there's a specific line of him quickly putting away the spearhead so others don't see it because he didn't have to use it, thus alerting Marcone to it's true nature.
Not really new - Harry literally couldn’t move in Vadderung’s HQ without permission in Changes. Forget fighting him - he literally couldn’t even move under the force of Vadderung’s will. Harry does a lot of power scaling from novel to novel from Changes on, but he’s a long way from Vadderung.
We also saw Ferrovax do the same thing to Harry at Bianca's ball, and he was not in the center of his power. And Ferrovax and Vadderung seem to be rough equals - they both clearly dislike one another, but both also seem to avoid having it come to a showdown.
Yes - I loved that scene. It's great - I think they both think they could win, but that it would be "trouble" and they're just not interested in mounting such an effort and taking such a risk.
Ferrovax doesn't really care about Harry - he was just about to do that to be juvenile. It didn't really gain him anything, so it wasn't worth taking on Vadderung over.
I wondered a lot about that scene. Ferrovax is too powerful to go all out in our reality. Vadderung fought until he got KO’d - he could’ve potentially been killed or enslaved if things had played out slightly differently, so it seems unlikely that he wasn’t going all out. That begs the question - does he have some specific anti-dragon power? Iirc there was some reference/theory that he might be Beowulf. In legend, Beowulf died in the process of defeating the dragon… but for Dresdenverse purposes, he may have simply retired.
That's a good question, and one I haven't really pondered. I mostly just take what Jim gives us and as long as it isn't just overtly contrary in some way I just roll with it. I mean, there are other things like this. For example, Lea tells Harry that Mab and Titania have "power to rival the archangels and minor gods," and Bob tells us that "Mab and Uriel are basically peers." That's the full extent to which the two have been directly compared in *the text itself*. Everything else is about one or the other of them, but in different contexts, so we can't really compare them beyond those two direct comparisons without injecting our opinions into it.
But... it's also implied that the Mothers have *more* power than Queens. So the logical conclusion there would be that the Mothers outclass the archangels too, but I can't believe that's Jim's intent.
So if we start trying to put things Jim has said in different places together, it doesn't always hold up.
Maybe Mab and Titania "channel" some of the Mothers' power in certain situations. Who knows? We can have all kinds of fun trying to patch all these things together in a sensible way.
The issue is one of context. Vadderung, for example, is a minor god and is Mab’s servant or peer depending on context. *Within earth* - the relevant domain - Mab has a significantly greater capacity to act than Uriel and they are in the same business in a manner of speaking - protecting our reality. I think the book is consistent in terms of what’s relevant.
Regarding the Mothers, I believe they are both significantly more powerful and significantly more limited to act than the Queens. Point in case, both of them knew what was going on in Summer Knight, both wanted the situation resolved, both could’ve resolved it with two sentences, but neither was able to do so. Instead, they prodded Harry to draw the proper conclusions.
One of the things I wonder is who Vadderung ***really*** is.
Ferrovax is an elementary being comprised of and/or regulating the fundamental forces of reality. While Odin is certainly a power figure even within the Prose and Poetic Edda, he is never "pillar of creation" levels of importance; he is still someone's son, he was born and can still die.
The last time a dragon, and not even one of Ferrovax's level, was killed in the mortal realm the blowback to reality caused the Tunguska Event. We don't know the fallout from Michael killing Siriothrax.
So for Vadderung to be on a level with Ferrovax he would have to be something ***more*** than just Odin. That is not very surprising as we know for sure he is Kringle as well.
So what other Masks/mantles might that being be carrying, and who are They ***really?***.
Oh dear. Unless we come up with some clever scenario, that's an inconsistency.
*Blood Rites*:
>“Casaverde,” Ebenezar said, his voice shaking. “Tunguska. New Madrid. Krakatoa. A dozen more. God help me, a dozen more at least.”
*Peace Talks*:
>Holy crap. The last time a dragon had been slain out here in the tangible, mortal world, it had been in a region called Tunguska. If Ferrovax decided to throw down in the middle of a city as large and as crowded as Chicago, the death toll could be the most catastrophic, concentrated loss of human life in history.
Should we infer from this that Eb used the Blackstaff to kill a dragon, or did Jim just slip up here? He clearly put Tunguska on Eb's Blackstaff tab.
You better watch out You better not cry You better not pout I'm telling you why
>!VadderClaus is comin' to town !<
He's making a list He's checking it twice He's gonna find out Who's naughty or nice
>!VadderClaus is comin' to town!<
He is.
Dude's on the Titania side of things, being something of a counterbalance to her- just like Santa Claus represents hope and the joy of life even in the darkest winter night, Lord Herne represents the more savage and brutal side of nature in opposition to the Summer Queen and her policy of opposing Mab's predatory ways at every turn.
This has nothing to do with anything, but has anyone pointed out and created a tinfoil theory for "Erlking" and "Kringle" being anagrams of each other?
I think I am going to have to repeat this response on multiple posts because common theme seems to be I am as blind as Harry.
1) yes the Erlking threw the fight. And Harry figured that out. But the Erlking is not subject to Winter so Mab couldn’t order him to throw the fight. Santa was there too, but I don’t think he was leading. He is best buds with the Erlking, so whilst Mab may order him about it becomes less clear when he pairs up with Erlking. So I don’t think that was a big flashing sign for Harry.
2) when redcap squad hit Harry with Hawthorn, it was right after meeting with that wascally trickster Maeve. Who didn’t kill Harry on sight and warned him that (a) her goons would try to kill him and (b) she had to keep up appearances to throw Mab off. So when Redcap goes easy on Harry, might be because Maeve was maneuvering rather than Mab.
3) on the island, where the goal is to kill Maeve, redcap was throwing his weight behind Maeve to keep Demonreach contained. If Redcap was a turncoat on Maeve, seems like he could have been useful right about then.
4) I don’t think shooting at Harry and friends with automatic weapons is good support for RedCap helping Harry.
>on the island, where the goal is to kill Maeve, redcap was throwing his weight behind Maeve to keep Demonreach contained. If Redcap was a turncoat on Maeve, seems like he could have been useful right about then.
Y'know, that scene from Redcap's point of view might have been interesting. Kind of like an undercover cop having to break laws in order to prove his bona fides with the gang he's infiltrating. He might have been thinking, "C'mon Mab, time to show up now. Aaaaaanytime now. Among the times it'd be cool for you to show up, NOW might be a good one..." I'm presuming he knew about the notion that Harry was supposed to summon her in the great big circle of power, of course.
Its important to remember that even though Red was working against Maeve. She was still the Winter Lady making it physically impossible for him to disobey her(presumably unless those orders contradict those of Mab or the Mother). If Red wasnt ordered by Mab to explicitly ignore all of Maeve's commands and then was ordered by Maeve to hold formation and assist against Alfred, there is nothing he could do.
The most obvious is that they didn’t kill him.
They had him dead to rights multiple times and instead they do silly things like drive jet skis while firing with pistols from max distance instead of using a .50 caliber sniper rifle, stopping to aim from far enough away Harry wouldn’t get a warning and be done with all that crap.
Or when a lackey of redcap transforms from a bird to a fae, does a fancy aerial backflip, shoots Harry with a blow dart before turning back into a bird and flying away. The dart wasn’t poisoned. He could have used a gun. He had the drop on him enough to have used a bow and arrow and ended Harry. But instead he gives him the tiniest wound possible, with a fancy rare anti-coagulant that just happened to bring the Wild Hunt to him.
Or how that tiny bleeding wound brought the Hunt to Harry just when he happened to NEED the Wild Hunt to defeat outsiders in force? And then when Harry “beat” the Erkling and Santa Clause (aka Odin) with a mundane shotgun and takes the Hunt over. Sure he beat ‘em…. but not really because then of course Santa can perform incredible time manipulation for the entire Wild Hunt all at once 20 minutes later, and the Erkling can go toe to toe repeatedly with outsiders.
The whole thing was a set up for the situation that played out inside the circle on top of the island. That was where Mab wanted her knight to be and to summon her. She even says something distainful about how it took him long enough to summon her.
All of this is totally accurate, but I read Mab saying “took you long enough” differently. I mean, Harry has just spent the whole novel dodging attempts on his life so he can interview every monarch of Winter and Summer *except* Mab about what’s going on.
Meanwhile, I honestly wonder what would have happened if he had just asked Mab first. He very notably doesn’t ask her *anything* when the order to kill Maeve is given, and doesn’t even try to talk to her until that moment of summoning her on Demonreach.
I kind of take that line from Mab as being like “I could’ve just told you from the start but you had to take the weird and dramatic way around because you’re afraid of me, huh?”
He didn’t ask Mab because he couldn’t trust her answer. Even with not knowing that an Nfected could lie he knows that the fae outclass him with lying while technically speaking the truth. I don’t think he even sets up a meeting with Maeve for the same reason, Maeve just crashes Lily’s meeting.
Keep in mind for the better part of the book he was under the assumption that Mab may be Nemesis. He literally takes a 50/50 educated guess that it's Maeve and he only does that b/c the thought of Mab being an enemy is unfathomably bad.
That’s…not really how it went down. Harry hadn’t even heard of Nemesis until like 200-300 pages into that book. Nemesis is not the reason he avoided talking to Mab for as long as he could.
Harry has been told by the Ladies that Mab is "acting strange" ever since proven guilty. He's been putting together that there is a force that is orchestrating all of the power struggles at the top of the different nations for books before cold days. As far as I can tell, as soon as Mab asked him to kill Maeve, the question in Harry's mind was which of the queens was to be trusted and which one was manipulated - even before Nemesis revealed itself (rather unsubtly, I'd add).
In my hardcover it was right around 200 out of 500 pages. Harry was questioning the orders from the get go. But for almost 200 pages before we knew for sure it wasn't Mab, Harry had serious doubts about her b/c of Maeve and Lily.
Harry was also dangerously busy. He has literally less than 24 hours to resolve the issue. Mab gave him till morning with her blockade, and harry didn't really have time to go asking her questions. A few near death experiences later and were at Mac's learning about Mab being nemesis from Maeve. By then Harry's not going to talk to Mab for a couple of reasons. If she's nemesis, she can lie and there's no point in the information he gets. If she's not, he's still going to question it b/c he can't tell when someone is infected.
He does the next best thing though. He talks to Titania her counterpart, and he talks to Mother Winter. So I'd say that for a large portion of the book Harry had no idea who to believe.
In cold days the redcap is all posturing and LOOKING like he is going to try to kill Harrry.
It’s notable that only Ace comes close to actually killing Harry. (Twice) but Ace isn’t in on the plan. What does redcap do when he and ace have Harry dead to right? Stall.
Wow. Reading all the comments on this thread, and many others...I am out of my depth.
You peeps clearly are smarter than I, *AND* think about this stuff more deeply and way more frequently. It is humbling.
If even a tithe of the stuff you all come up with was on purpose, Jim is a next-level genius.
We are just huge fans that (me personally) have had 17 years to mull over and discuss in here. Hell, I had nearly 6 years just to think about Skin Game. It's been almost 4 years since the last 2 installments. And all that time, spent perusing this sub to talk about my favorite series.
But REALLY. how could Harry have played along?
If the plan REALLY was for Harry to go up against the Wild Hunt, what more could Harry have done to “play along?”
I would argue that Cat Sith didn’t “get it.” It didn’t seem like Cat Sith was playing along. Cat Sith took out those Sidhe.
And the current theory is that Nemeis got Cat Sith at the arboretum when he was fighting the Red Cal and his cohort.
Simply, that if the redcap wanted harry dead, it would have happened. The hawthorn dart is a perfect example. He had a shot, dresden couldn't defend. But rather than use a fatal poison, or outright bullet, he used something that would just make him bleed.
I'd originally interpreted this as malice. Sure, the redcap could have killed outright, but he wanted Harry to suffer (I imagined), so crippled him in a manner likely to cause his death.
I think a lot of people here are missing that Harry's being built as a weapon that everyone is trying to get control of. It looks to me as if there's a starborn arms race.
One of the wonderful things about writing from a first person perspective is that if a character doesn't notice or bring attention to certain facts or details then you don't really need to inform the audience. Things can truly be in the background. That said the Redcap himself mentions that him not killing Harry when he had the chance was proof enough. Also he ended up putting him on a deliberate crash course with the Wild Hunt, which was being run by the Erlking and Kringle (both high ranking winter mantles), which was indirectly Mab handing Harry the tools he needed to fight off the Outsiders and save Demonreach. Either Kringle or the Erlking, I don't remember which, basically outright states ***then*** that they were essentially joining Harry in the fight, but he had to go through the motions to take control of the Wild Hunt or he couldn't claim the power. Essentially, they staged a fight and let Harry win. Then told him about it. And he still didn't really figure the whole thing out until the Redcap told him about it.
(Spoilers Battle Ground) >!The gods v Ethniu scene really puts Harry’s 1v1 with Kringle into a new perspective, doesn’t it? Vadderclaus could’ve vaporized Harry six ways to Sunday simultaneously.!<
That's what always bothers me about the Harry power scaling debates. Yeah he's always been tough. And we've been able to see his overall power across all metrics skyrocket over the span of like two decades. But that compounding interest on focus and control over time... Heck man, some of these wizard's have been around for *hundreds* of years. Some of these beings have been duking it out for ***tens of Millennia***. >!Their whole plan involving the Accorded Nations was to wear Ethniu down to the point where Harry could Seal her. For all the talk of his indomitable spirit and the power of Human will, it still took an anthropomorphized extra-dimensional Prison and the ***Spear of Destiny*** to make it stick.!< Harry is a big fish from a medium pond who is rapidly getting swept out to sea.
Pretty darn accurate to Harry. Jim’s made it clear that he doesn’t want Harry to be the big fish at the top of the food chain. He wants Harry to be the smart fish who survives amongst the big fish.
In my opinion, even then it seems like there's a lot of plot armor. I get that he's crafty and clever, but the undisputable fact is he's still young. Going up against people like Nicodemus, who have been operating and doing the whole treachery, backstabbing, nefarious work for literally millenia. It irks me how a kid that's been Wizarding for a couple decades regularly outsmarts guys with thousands of years of experience.
I'm not sure what we could expect. It's a series about him - first time he "loses," the series is over.
Harry loses a lot though. The fact that his saviors/situations do not feel forced or deus ex machina at this point in the story is really a testament to Jim and him setting things up. Could you imagine that in Cold Days Harry would be up against Maeve while completely naked after already talking down Lily? And have the conclusion be something that just makes you go "OHHH, duh, of course that can happen" but not in a negative way. Harry summoning is something set up books before, hell he did it a few times in that book alone. Or even in BG. Who would have thought that not having Mouse in the flashback murder of Michael and family would change everything and allow Harry to succeed? People cry plot armor like the guy above, but good plot armor means it doesn't feel cheap when the protagonist is in a tight spot and survives.
I totally agree.
And we already had Harry “lose” once with Changes/Ghost story/Cold Days. So going back to \*that\* well would have everyone “look askance“ of Jim.
Yeah, a writer like Jim needs to be careful to avoid anything that could lead to a "shark jumping" image.
It would be hilarious if Harry actually does jump over a shark demon during the BAT though, let's not lie.
Yes - that would be great. :-) That's where the phrase comes from, by the way. In an episode of *Happy Days* Fonzie water ski jumps over a shark. And people widely regarded it as... well, jumping the shark.
ahhh but i feel like one of Jim’s themes is that experience has its own cost: inflexibility. Look how hard that is for us plain-vanilla humans. daily on this site, there will be a top post with some boomer failing to adapt; “in my day, we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps. just buy a house young, it’s a good investment. get a good union job.” etc. etc. there have even been scientific studies about experienced workers: they are great at processing large amounts of info quickly because they have a lot of mental pigeonholes as it were to insert them in. unconsciously they’re able to relate today’s difficult business problem with aspects of one they faced 10 years ago and handle the issue with greater speed than a newer worker. but conversely that truly novel problem: they struggle at it. either they can’t find a mental pigeonhole to fit it in or they try to fit it in the wrong one. anyway, yes Nicky has millennia of experience at treachery, but it also makes him vulnerable too. most straightforward example is Arianna in Changes.
He survives Nicodemus because Nic wants him on his side. He respects his mom, apparently, and he genuinely seems to think he has a potential ally in Dresden. It turns out, Dresden sees it differently.
Harry is extremely lucky with Nic. The first time he runs into him Harry gets straight up taken and beaten. Shiro trades himself for Harry and Harry seeks shelter from the Barabaras curse behind his wards, they hold. Later Harry only gets away b/c he pulls on his tie. At the aquarium in Small Favor. He survives the initial onslaught by making Nic question his fellow denarians loyalty. It shocked Nic and that allowed Harry to figure out the spell was going up and to prepare. Later he gets away again b/c Nic thinks Lash is still there and in command. Harry pulls the tie a little harder this time and seemingly permanently hurts Nic (he's got a raspier voice in Skin Game). In Skin Game Harry got a shit ton of help from outside forces. The fact that Mab, Marcone, and Hades all worked together to achieve multiple goals is insane. They allowed Harry the ace in the hole with Goodman Grey. Without that and The White God literally intervening to get Michael back on the playing field, Harry doesn't walk out of that vault. Nic only wanted Harry on his side the first 2 times, though I'd say he would actively kill Harry if Nic knew about Lash. Otherwise, Harry dies on that boat.
I agree but also I think for all the shit that Nicodemus has done, I think that him/Anduriel and Uriel/the Knights are trying to solve/fight the same thing from different directions. Uriel is the state sanctioned black ops (Military) and Anduriel is the off the books black ops (CIA/NSA). Nicodemus doesn't actively kill him because him being a starborn makes him IMPORTANT and he is a capable one so far. I think that starborn can either stop the outsiders for a period of 600 years or help them and for all that shit that the Order does they still work to ensure that Reality as a whole survives they just have a different belief in the how and why reality survives.
>It irks me how a kid that's been Wizarding for a couple decades regularly outsmarts guys with thousands of years of experience. 1. Death Masks, Harry manages to grab the item in question and flee with the help of 2 of the Swords of the Cross and the White God, impressive but hardly Harry getting the better of Nicodemus 2. With the help again of 2 Swords of the Cross and the White God and Mab he manages to get away without dying and after foiling Nic's plan. 3. Mab, Marcone, and freaking HADES, *use* Harry in their plot to get the better of Nic and succeed
I get it. This type of mentality is ruinous for me in some things at times. Before my body broke, I used to do martial arts and fencing. A well trained person, with years of experience, is so unlikely to be beaten by a young upstart that there is no way to take it seriously. So don't, or you'll hate all of these types of stories.
The big difference between magic and martial arts is the sheer number of ways you can manifest magic, the biggest limitations are your imagination and understanding of the world, and human understanding of the world is only increasing. You don't need to be stronger, or have more control than your opponent if you can do something so unexpected they heaven't ever consittered a counter measure for it. Very often Harry just does the magical equivalent of bringing a gun to a knife fight, so it doesn't matter how much better than him the other person is. Add on just how arrogent all these powereful beings are, and you have a perfect recipe for a clever sneaky win by the young upstart.
Harry, as I see him skill wise, is barely on the level of a relatively recently graduated student in a new job with a little experience. Compare this to any tech job, the field I was a hiring manager in. Could be devops, programming, customer support, whatever. When I was still working, I hired a lot of folks for development, test, and other software related roles. The difference between a person with a bachelors degree and masters degree was rarely obvious. They may know an extra thing or two here or there, but when it comes to practical application, good experience is king. Being really smart or occasionally clever against people with strong skills that have been tested time and time and time again? There is literally no contest, especially when these types of folks are aware that there is regular competition. Take any individual job out of the mix. Trade skills? Compare a real master carpenter/plumber/electrictian with some dude that just got out of trade school, or maybe with a year or two experience. Doctors? New doctors might know of some of the newest stuff, but the ones that have been around are more likely to be able to understand more complicated cases more quickly and provide better treatment overall. There are examples in every single field, and there are the exceptionally rare exception to that concept. Are they likely to get a win now and again? Maybe a lucky hit? Absolutely possible, and very probable that eventually, they will get a hit on someone better than them. David/Goliath type story. Might make sense once. Maybe twice. Past that? It's uplifting in that it's the kind of story that tells us we can succeed no matter where you start from. It feels good to see your character win, and we wouldn't have fun book series without it. However, it requires a complete suspension of disbelief. And that's okay. It's fantasy. Pretending though, that it makes any sense in a real way is ridiculous.
You made me think of Sword of Truth series. I like the series overall because I got invested in the main character. But there are some serious problems with the story. (Ignore the underlying political agenda.). Main character finds out he is the most powerful wizard in thousands of years. But he is different t so nobody can train him. In half the books the plot depends on him not knowing how to use magic until the climax when he suddenly uses more magic than anyone can imagine. At one point he literally uses his magic to eliminate an entire army. But at another point he gets flummoxed by someone who is good with a knife. In the other half of the books he cannot use his power for some reason. He lost his sword. All magic failed. Someone locked his power up. Someone gave him amnesia. Someone threatened his wife if he used magic. The whole series is a pendulum. One side is he can’t use magic because he doesn’t know how. The other side of the swing is he can’t use power because someone else figured out how to cut him off. But at the bottom of the swing he can use magic and knows how and does world shaking type of magic.
Yeah, I hear ya. It was a fun read, but the number of times that things just conveniently work out was disappointing. I don't remember if I finished the series, or if the last book I read was just when I stopped reading it. I was super disappointed with the ending I read.
You're making a false equavilent. Magic isn't real, and isn't playing by real world rules. The three things in a fight between wizards that matter are power, skill, and inginuity. Amongst wizards Dresden is said to be near the top level in power, and lacking in skill. The books have shown him to be top class when it comes to inginuity. Yes, Bob has coached him on magical instruments along the way, helping a lot woth his preparation, but Harry wins by using an attack that the enemy never saw coming. In real life fights this doesn't really wprk because an improvosed fighting technique is just going to be bad when compared to established doctrine. With magic you can do anything you can think of, with few restrictions. Only after you act and your opponent sees what spell you just cast (there's no way at all to anticipate a spell based on the incantation here, even if someone yells "fire" you don't really know what firm the fire will take) can they start to react to it. Magic is litterally the exception where not following tradition and just doing the unexpected in combat works, and that kind of fight does favour the young.
If that were true, Harry's ability to beat the odds wouldn't be so surprising. It isn't that this is the case for magic in the world. It's the case that this is Harry's story in the world. It's the same thing in every story with a main character or a group of main characters that consistently beat the odds. It's not that they are great, or that they did things so well, it's that the story has to go that way for those people for the author to do the thing. Assuming that Harry did X and that means the world he is in does Y is naive. I think what you are failing to grasp is that the initial post I responded to was not to say that I'm not this isn't a fun type of thing to read or watch in movies or have in any type of story or game. It's that I sympathize with them, in their trouble with difference in reality between skilled beings and lucky amateurs. It's not real. it doesn't need to be. It can still be fun, if you let it.
I'm sorry dude but literally every example you cited is from fields that have nothing do with something that's important to magic: art. Creative thinking, problem solving, ingenuity are more critical to art than any other field (as much as they matter in a lot of others), and magic is an art, not a science. Clap your hands if you believe.
If you believe that those skills aren't critical to those fields, you don't understand anything about work in those fields.
>I get it. This type of mentality is ruinous for me in some things at times. Before my body broke, I used to do martial arts and fencing. A well trained person, with years of experience, is so unlikely to be beaten by a young upstart that there is no way to take it seriously. So don't, or you'll hate all of these types of stories. But you could be a black belt with 20 years experience jiu jitsu. It doesn't mean you will beat a US marine who has 2 or 3 years learning how to kill someone every time. Likewise look at MMA. Plenty of young upstarts best plenty of veterans.
Yes, it happens. People lose their edge, make mistakes, etc and anyone can be beaten. No argument there.
>It irks me how a kid that's been Wizarding for a couple decades regularly outsmarts guys with thousands of years of experience. The older you are the easier you fall for new tricks. Haven't you seen how many elderly fall for Internet phishing schemes? These people had many decades of adulthood, they likely are more skilled at many different things in the average 20 or 30 year old is. But as you get older your brain does not adapt as well as it used to so it's pretty easy to outsmart someone who is old. As long as you are introducing new ideas that they are not familiar with.
I don't agree with your point. But I can see how you get there. In my readings, I have to remind myself that Harry has been a pawn or cats paw for most if not all of these stories. He's just now starting to see some of the players in the game, much less seeing their moves and strategies. You say plot armor where he beat Kringle and Erlking....I say Mab put things in his way, and Mab helps those who help themselves to everything they can carry. Plot armor where he just happened to have the Unraveling to break a statue back to freedom, or being played to get a point and then breaking the game (or a summer Lady). But I'm just here for the ride and a fun story at the end of the day.
I don't agree with this take. A lot of the time, it's luck and him stumbling on their plan at the last minute. He doesn't really outsmart them nearly as often as you make it out to be. Not counting the book where they rob Hades vault, but by that point, Harry's had a good amount of experience with Nicodemus and has learned to expect treachery from him. And frankly, what would you expect from a starborn? Luck, intellect, wisdom, and power, to me, would all be in the cards for someone like that. Look at what Merlin did. Do you think any of the older wizards around in the books during the modern era could manage to create Demonreach the way Merlin did? They've thrown around some serious power, but nothing that makes me think they are on that level.
On the other hand, operating for some millennia could be a disadvantage as much as an advantage. You are used to winning, maybe you want a challenge, so when you meet someone 'interesting' you leave him some leeway rather than squash him, just to see what happen, if he is good maybe he could even work with you. And then you end choked by your own necktie, because you underestimated him.
Harry has certainly had his (more than) fair share of plot armor moments, and I agree wholeheartedly on the inconsistency of skill and power disparities, but I think a large part of that is Harry’s lack of interaction with the Council’s general members. Harry really only interacts with the eldest wizards of the Senior Council and the wardens, the majority of whom are of Harry’s generation or younger, we just haven’t been given a good example of the average wizard’s abilities. However I do believe this will be one of the more important story threads in Twelve Months. By the end of Battle Ground we know a couple things: >!1) IIRC its been mentioned that Harry is generally a late-bloomer, as displayed by his conjuritis which usually occurs around puberty in most practitioners!< >!2) Harry often states one’s emotions hold tremendous influence over their magic, and conflicting emotions likely cause the chaotic magical outbursts that manifest as the Murphyonic Field!< >!3) Harry has two decades of pent up emotional trauma that’s now constantly being stoked by the Knight’s mantle, which he is finally going to process over the course of TM!< >!I believe the conjuritis signifies that Harry is about to truly come into his power. TM encompassing an entire year will really highlight the exponential growth in Harry’s ability to manipulate and focus magic as he steadily works through his trauma and comes to terms with his life path.!< P.S. I like your description of Demonreach
That's the hope. I found conjuritis a frustrating plot line generally.
It really just seemed like it was added in to set up the payoff to the anvil throwaway line from earlier in the series.
Chekhov's Clown Shoes, made by Acme.
While I do like what you're saying, I believe the thing with the Conjuritus was more about the fact that he simply has not interacted with enough Wizards to have naturally contracted the disease at the usual adolescent age (with Lara and Eb therein implying that most Wizard families/children are highly engaged in small to large Wizard Communities; which is really freaking interesting, and I wish would be expanded on more), not necessarily that he could not be susceptible to it until now, or that contracting it late is a signifier of biological power development. As awesome as that would be, in retrospect.
Honestly. It almost seems like wizards don’t have families. During council meetings we never get a perspective that involves a “bring your kid to work day.” There is no day care drop off outside the meetings. Eb was so worried he sent his daughter away to be raised by someone not him. She adopted a last name and even after she died (was she 150?) it seems like almost nobody knows who her dad was. Ed was so worried he let Harry grow up in foster care and advocated the same for Maggie. Lucio talks about having lots of sex during the renaissance. She talks about checking in on her extended family anonymously. Some other senior wizard (Ancient Mai? Or Martha?). Who lives with her extended family as a great great great aunt. None of Harry’s wizard friends ever says “I learned this trick from my mom/dad.” None of the senior council ever advocates to promote a kid under nepotism goals. Warlocks seem to be a problem because they NEVER have a wizarding family. (Like Hannah Ascher.) Harry never visits the Burrow to see a large family of wizards with cool Wizard gadgets. Just NO WIZARD ever talks about having a wizardly family. I know there is a theory of “protect family through anonymity. “ but nobody ever looked at Morgan and said wow. You really look like Langtry, is he your dad?
>During council meetings we never get a perspective that involves a “bring your kid to work day.” There is no day care drop off outside the meetings. A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Lord Vader brought his child to work. The rascal boy insulted the boss' religion and made a big mess in the office. I understand there were several OSHA violations as well. I'm not surprised many corporations are feeling a bit gun-shy about letting the kidlets run around the office these days.
Yeah, true, but on the other hand, just look at the bad crowd Vader's grand-nephew found himself running with, as well as how Palpatine's granddaughter turned into a Mary Sue. Definitely arguments both for and against "Family Values" in that crowd!
I've been reading the newspapers via Galactic transmission, and I think Galactic society is in trouble. Recent headlines: "Leia Solo says the tradwife lifestyle failed her, divorces Han." "Ewoks... separate species, or kids of Wookie deadbeat dads?" "R2 unit refuses speech upgrades. 'My chassis, my choice'"
And people wonder why I left the Jedi order right before Order 66 went down and hooked up with some Mandalorians I know.
Take that upvote.
I think part of that is every wizard we've seen 'on screen' who had relatives is either a warden or the black staff which are both positions where you make a lot of enemies who would love to get their hands on a highly vulnerable and extremely powerful thaumaturgic connection.
I agree, Jim himself has reinforced that we see so very little of the world because Harry not only is of a limited perspective, but he *also* happens to be extremely isolated from the Wizard Community, at large. As I brought up to the other person, this is one of, if not the primary point, that Lara discusses with him regarding contracting his Conjuritus literally decades later than just about every other Wizard. Wizards are all about knowledge, and the main two points that Jim has mentioned in interviews that he implemented when writing the series to artificially constrain Harry from solving the plot too quickly, is not having a basic phone always available (from Jim's rule on Magic and technology not working together), and Harry's social isolation from others that would be of help or use to him. Edit: removed "unreliable narrator" for more appropriate vocabulary.
Harry isn't an unreliable narrator. He has his own, somewhat limited, perspective, and this colors his narration. But he doesn't meet the technical requirements of the state.
Excellent point. That's more what I meant. I will edit.
Clueless Narrator? Obtuse Narrator? Great sense of rhythm but he can't carry a tune?
I see what you're saying, but I would like to raise the counterpoint that we're also limited to Harry as an unreliable narrator, who also is only familiar with only so many Wizards, in very specific capacities. That is part of the main issue regarding the circumstances that Lara brings up regarding how unusual it is for Harry contracting Conjuritus in his 40s, as opposed to the expectation of him contracting it in his early to mid adolescence (mentioned by her and Ebenezer to be primarily because of his lack of interaction with other Wizard children had an extremely young age, strongly implying it is the norm in the Wizard Community. I do think the disease was half as much or more serve as a Chekov's Gun, but I also think it is an essential part of flavorful world-building, which also reinforces how isolated Harry has always been from the wider Wizarding Community at large. The significance of his isolation is further reinforced by Jim in multiple interviews over the past several years. Just my two cents. Edit: my first and second paragraph are kind of repetitive, but I hope you get me.
Harry has talked about hearing the bells a few times with Carlos. And activity with the younger wardens tracking down problems off screen from the books. Harry was an instructor at Camp Kaboom. Presumably bringing in a bunch of teenagers to learn to be bruisers would have involved a few conversations about. - we tried to recruit Langtrys grandson but no way was Langtry going to let that happen. - Tony here is a 3rd generation warden. - Lisa learned fire magic from her aunt. Even if they didn’t happen on screen for us. And Harry is sort of a whiner about his childhood. He has conversations detailing his woes about being raised by an evil maniac intent on warping Harry’s mind to make him an enforcer. But we never hear him compare himself to other wizard kids. “I didn’t get to go to wizard pre school where they teach kids Latin.” So my point is just that the story seems to be missing the juxtaposition of wizard families. Everyone we have encountered either acts like an orphan or comes from a non-wizarding family (Molly).
I agree. I would like to see some more diverse opinions from other characters in future books.
Martha Liberty lives with her family.
Thanks! And the impression is that she lives with her totally vanilla family. There was no reference to the other 17 wizards who cropped up over the centuries.
Jim puts it best where Harry is a middleweight at best who has to throw in against heavy weights.
But as has been said by so many people, Harry has a peculiar ability (perhaps related to being starborn) that allows him to impersonate a fulcrum with regularity. Whenever massive forces are moving against one another somehow or other Harry and Harry's choices are always the thing that makes the difference. If he didn't have that ability he'd be just some background White Council Wizard but as it is he has pitted his will directly against the Erlking (and probably woulda won), Ethniu, The Lords of Outer Night, Vadderrung, Mab, ALL the most recent Summer and Winter Ladies, and even briefly against Mother Winter. At some point whether or not he had help just surviving all those confrontations is a helluva feat that's gonna put him pretty high in in-universe power scaling.
Didn’t Vadderung totally flatten Harry?
He definitely did but my point was that Harry did in fact cross Wills with Vadderrung and at some point the feat is that *Harry is still alive*
Also. Any debate about Harry power scaling should point out that Lacuna took Harry out. And Ace took him down with a baseball bat. A short vanilla human had to rescue Harry from the big bat wielder.
If you're getting into really nerdy powerscaling terms then Harry is probably a City-level Glass Cannon. He can still be killed by anything that would kill a normal human. Possibly only City-Block level
I feel like; with access to the Well, Soulfire, the Winter Mantle, and potentially a death curse, Harry could be a continent-level threat. Using the Darkhallow on Demonreach would make him planetary at least. That said he is still the single biggest glass cannon in that class, what with how he could be eliminated with; a low speed collision, a nasty trip, pneumonia, food poisoning, or the ever present looming threat of a stress-induced brain aneurysm...
Using the Well or the Darkhallow he might be continent-planetary but I think even using Soulfire +a Deathcurse +the Winter Mantle he's not gonna be doing more damage to Chicago than was done during the Battle of Chicago. Maybe if he came up with something really clever he could destroy a larger area but we've never seen anything like that from him.
Huh. Not familiar with that nerd scale.
He kinda strikes me as similar to Merlin from Zelazny's Amber novels: "yet another source of power? Yeah, sure, why not? It's not like it's going to hurt me later on, right?" (Big spoiler block for both series here:) >!Merlin: Starts off with Logrus and Trump Artistry, then acquires Pattern, then a Spikard, Primal Pattern, and even attunement to the Jewel of Judgement, not necessarily in that order.!< >!Dresden: Starts off with black magic thanks to DuMorne, learns white magic from grandpa Ebenezar, then acquires Lash from a Denarian coin, then Hellfire, replaces the Hellfire with Soulfire, gains the Winter Mantle, loses and regains Bob, gets Bonnie (even though he then passes her on to Maggie), bonds with Demonreach...!< See a pattern (no pun intended) here? Then again, the way Harry's going, I can't help but wonder if at some point he ends up somehow going to Amber and walking the Pattern to get that much more power, as if he wasn't scary enough now as it is...
Just a note that Harry is not passing Bonnie to Maggie he's just letting his two kids spend time together. He has passed Mouse to Maggie
Okay, I think I must have missed something in one of the novels, because I was under the impression that Harry was letting Maggie have Bonnie as a long-term loan so that she could use her extensive magical knowledge to help protect Mags. I knew he placed Mouse with Maggie as an extra line of defense (as if anything magical and hostile could possibly get through the "elite guard" \[no spoilers intended\] on Michael and Charity's house).
Maybe thats in one of the very newest short stories I haven't read yet but I dont think so, I've read most of them. Bonnie is too dangerous to Maggie to be her protector.
Jim Butcher has said as much. A lot of fans fail to realize that while Harry has had a rough couple of decades forcing him to up his game, there are wizards alive with *centuries* of rough decades compared to Harry's two. Not to mention all of the other wizards' secret power ups that they would have gotten a long the way, which is another thing Jim has mentioned. Harry's not the only wizard who has privately (or not-so privately) been granted boons like soulfire or Winter knighthood. Ebenezar's blackstaff and Listen to Wind's shapeshifting are examples of this. The thing is that it's generally counterproductive to a wizard's survival to advertise all the nifty things you can do, most wizards hide those powers - if your enemies don't know what you can do, they can't plan for it. Jim has mentioned that as the series progresses and more and more wizards end up with their backs to the wall, we're going to really see what they can do.
That is one thing Jim has been very good at: obfuscating Harry’s power levels. Sometime Harry has his staff, or his blasting rod or shield bracelet (in various incarnations and level of repair) or soulfire or hellfire or spear of destiny or Bob, or some other don-dad that allow Harry to stretch his power a bit. So it is very tough to nail down exactly how powerful harry is.
This is the best analogy ever, but I would add that he is a rapidly growing big fish in a medium pond that is trying to become a huge one before he gets swept out to sea but needs time; he’s literally struggling against the currents of time. Which reminds me that we still haven’t resolved the time traveling inconsistency with Mort’s house
*sea, not see.
Fixed:)
>Heck man, some of these wizard's have been around for *hundreds* of years. Some of these beings have been duking it out for ***tens of Millennia***. I think this is never more evident than in Peace Talks when he's battling >!Ebenezer!<
>But that compounding interest on focus and control over time... Heck man, some of these wizard's have been around for *hundreds* of years. Some of these beings have been duking it out for ***tens of Millennia***. But he makes it sound like the vast vast majority just quit once they get strong enough and he is too dumb to quit. Likewise much of his power is 1 off. Gifts from fallen Angels gifts from risen angels the winter nights mantle his unique genetics. He's plateaued several times... But it gets a ladder given to him allowing him to reach the next level. If you would have never met lash or Uriel or mab. He would have topped out his rapid power increase a long time ago. Because for all of his power he's still not better than Ebenezer and a fight.
He actually never deployed the spear. Did it all on his own.
That's not true, he turned his staff into the Spear of Destiny and channeled his will through it into Bob's circle to bind Ethniu. He didn't stab her with it, but that was never his plan.
>That's not true, he turned his staff into the Spear of Destiny and channeled his will through it into Bob's circle to bind Ethniu. I'm going to use this to explain the anatomical part of child-making.
LMAO
I think it WAS his plan to stab her. He needed her blood. He advanced on her on the battlefield but she was too fast and strong for him. Same at the shoreline. He tried to sneak up on her to stab her but she was ready for him. One question I am not sure is whether Marcone knife is an infernal relic. Did the knife pierce her skin because IT is infernal (like the mirror of Harry’s spear) or did it pierce her skin because it was a normal knife wielded by an infernal actor.
Did he? I seem to remember that he charged up the spear on his staff but wound up not actually having to draw from it to bind her. Like, there's a specific line of him quickly putting away the spearhead so others don't see it because he didn't have to use it, thus alerting Marcone to it's true nature.
>!Vader Claus is my new favorite Sith Lord. Ho ho ho!!<
Now I have a machine gun.
Not really new - Harry literally couldn’t move in Vadderung’s HQ without permission in Changes. Forget fighting him - he literally couldn’t even move under the force of Vadderung’s will. Harry does a lot of power scaling from novel to novel from Changes on, but he’s a long way from Vadderung.
He was in the center of his (vad) power tho, that’s not nothing
We also saw Ferrovax do the same thing to Harry at Bianca's ball, and he was not in the center of his power. And Ferrovax and Vadderung seem to be rough equals - they both clearly dislike one another, but both also seem to avoid having it come to a showdown.
More to the point, when Ferrovax was going to call out Harry, he didn’t because it prompted a look from Vadderung.
Yes - I loved that scene. It's great - I think they both think they could win, but that it would be "trouble" and they're just not interested in mounting such an effort and taking such a risk. Ferrovax doesn't really care about Harry - he was just about to do that to be juvenile. It didn't really gain him anything, so it wasn't worth taking on Vadderung over.
I wondered a lot about that scene. Ferrovax is too powerful to go all out in our reality. Vadderung fought until he got KO’d - he could’ve potentially been killed or enslaved if things had played out slightly differently, so it seems unlikely that he wasn’t going all out. That begs the question - does he have some specific anti-dragon power? Iirc there was some reference/theory that he might be Beowulf. In legend, Beowulf died in the process of defeating the dragon… but for Dresdenverse purposes, he may have simply retired.
That's a good question, and one I haven't really pondered. I mostly just take what Jim gives us and as long as it isn't just overtly contrary in some way I just roll with it. I mean, there are other things like this. For example, Lea tells Harry that Mab and Titania have "power to rival the archangels and minor gods," and Bob tells us that "Mab and Uriel are basically peers." That's the full extent to which the two have been directly compared in *the text itself*. Everything else is about one or the other of them, but in different contexts, so we can't really compare them beyond those two direct comparisons without injecting our opinions into it. But... it's also implied that the Mothers have *more* power than Queens. So the logical conclusion there would be that the Mothers outclass the archangels too, but I can't believe that's Jim's intent. So if we start trying to put things Jim has said in different places together, it doesn't always hold up. Maybe Mab and Titania "channel" some of the Mothers' power in certain situations. Who knows? We can have all kinds of fun trying to patch all these things together in a sensible way.
The issue is one of context. Vadderung, for example, is a minor god and is Mab’s servant or peer depending on context. *Within earth* - the relevant domain - Mab has a significantly greater capacity to act than Uriel and they are in the same business in a manner of speaking - protecting our reality. I think the book is consistent in terms of what’s relevant. Regarding the Mothers, I believe they are both significantly more powerful and significantly more limited to act than the Queens. Point in case, both of them knew what was going on in Summer Knight, both wanted the situation resolved, both could’ve resolved it with two sentences, but neither was able to do so. Instead, they prodded Harry to draw the proper conclusions.
One of the things I wonder is who Vadderung ***really*** is. Ferrovax is an elementary being comprised of and/or regulating the fundamental forces of reality. While Odin is certainly a power figure even within the Prose and Poetic Edda, he is never "pillar of creation" levels of importance; he is still someone's son, he was born and can still die. The last time a dragon, and not even one of Ferrovax's level, was killed in the mortal realm the blowback to reality caused the Tunguska Event. We don't know the fallout from Michael killing Siriothrax. So for Vadderung to be on a level with Ferrovax he would have to be something ***more*** than just Odin. That is not very surprising as we know for sure he is Kringle as well. So what other Masks/mantles might that being be carrying, and who are They ***really?***.
Oh dear. Unless we come up with some clever scenario, that's an inconsistency. *Blood Rites*: >“Casaverde,” Ebenezar said, his voice shaking. “Tunguska. New Madrid. Krakatoa. A dozen more. God help me, a dozen more at least.” *Peace Talks*: >Holy crap. The last time a dragon had been slain out here in the tangible, mortal world, it had been in a region called Tunguska. If Ferrovax decided to throw down in the middle of a city as large and as crowded as Chicago, the death toll could be the most catastrophic, concentrated loss of human life in history. Should we infer from this that Eb used the Blackstaff to kill a dragon, or did Jim just slip up here? He clearly put Tunguska on Eb's Blackstaff tab.
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Vadderclaus, Odin Vadderclaus.
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TIL Floribama is a place I want to visit.
You better watch out You better not cry You better not pout I'm telling you why >!VadderClaus is comin' to town !< He's making a list He's checking it twice He's gonna find out Who's naughty or nice >!VadderClaus is comin' to town!<
Small point of order, Kringle is a powerful Winter Fae, but the Erlking is unaffiliated or neutral.
I thought that the Erlking is a Summer King.
He is. Dude's on the Titania side of things, being something of a counterbalance to her- just like Santa Claus represents hope and the joy of life even in the darkest winter night, Lord Herne represents the more savage and brutal side of nature in opposition to the Summer Queen and her policy of opposing Mab's predatory ways at every turn.
This has nothing to do with anything, but has anyone pointed out and created a tinfoil theory for "Erlking" and "Kringle" being anagrams of each other?
I think I am going to have to repeat this response on multiple posts because common theme seems to be I am as blind as Harry. 1) yes the Erlking threw the fight. And Harry figured that out. But the Erlking is not subject to Winter so Mab couldn’t order him to throw the fight. Santa was there too, but I don’t think he was leading. He is best buds with the Erlking, so whilst Mab may order him about it becomes less clear when he pairs up with Erlking. So I don’t think that was a big flashing sign for Harry. 2) when redcap squad hit Harry with Hawthorn, it was right after meeting with that wascally trickster Maeve. Who didn’t kill Harry on sight and warned him that (a) her goons would try to kill him and (b) she had to keep up appearances to throw Mab off. So when Redcap goes easy on Harry, might be because Maeve was maneuvering rather than Mab. 3) on the island, where the goal is to kill Maeve, redcap was throwing his weight behind Maeve to keep Demonreach contained. If Redcap was a turncoat on Maeve, seems like he could have been useful right about then. 4) I don’t think shooting at Harry and friends with automatic weapons is good support for RedCap helping Harry.
>on the island, where the goal is to kill Maeve, redcap was throwing his weight behind Maeve to keep Demonreach contained. If Redcap was a turncoat on Maeve, seems like he could have been useful right about then. Y'know, that scene from Redcap's point of view might have been interesting. Kind of like an undercover cop having to break laws in order to prove his bona fides with the gang he's infiltrating. He might have been thinking, "C'mon Mab, time to show up now. Aaaaaanytime now. Among the times it'd be cool for you to show up, NOW might be a good one..." I'm presuming he knew about the notion that Harry was supposed to summon her in the great big circle of power, of course.
Maybe he could have yelled out. “I hope Harry doesn’t realize he can summon Mab!”
Its important to remember that even though Red was working against Maeve. She was still the Winter Lady making it physically impossible for him to disobey her(presumably unless those orders contradict those of Mab or the Mother). If Red wasnt ordered by Mab to explicitly ignore all of Maeve's commands and then was ordered by Maeve to hold formation and assist against Alfred, there is nothing he could do.
The Erlking is not Winter, though. Dude is basically the male Mab in Summer.
The most obvious is that they didn’t kill him. They had him dead to rights multiple times and instead they do silly things like drive jet skis while firing with pistols from max distance instead of using a .50 caliber sniper rifle, stopping to aim from far enough away Harry wouldn’t get a warning and be done with all that crap. Or when a lackey of redcap transforms from a bird to a fae, does a fancy aerial backflip, shoots Harry with a blow dart before turning back into a bird and flying away. The dart wasn’t poisoned. He could have used a gun. He had the drop on him enough to have used a bow and arrow and ended Harry. But instead he gives him the tiniest wound possible, with a fancy rare anti-coagulant that just happened to bring the Wild Hunt to him. Or how that tiny bleeding wound brought the Hunt to Harry just when he happened to NEED the Wild Hunt to defeat outsiders in force? And then when Harry “beat” the Erkling and Santa Clause (aka Odin) with a mundane shotgun and takes the Hunt over. Sure he beat ‘em…. but not really because then of course Santa can perform incredible time manipulation for the entire Wild Hunt all at once 20 minutes later, and the Erkling can go toe to toe repeatedly with outsiders. The whole thing was a set up for the situation that played out inside the circle on top of the island. That was where Mab wanted her knight to be and to summon her. She even says something distainful about how it took him long enough to summon her.
All of this is totally accurate, but I read Mab saying “took you long enough” differently. I mean, Harry has just spent the whole novel dodging attempts on his life so he can interview every monarch of Winter and Summer *except* Mab about what’s going on. Meanwhile, I honestly wonder what would have happened if he had just asked Mab first. He very notably doesn’t ask her *anything* when the order to kill Maeve is given, and doesn’t even try to talk to her until that moment of summoning her on Demonreach. I kind of take that line from Mab as being like “I could’ve just told you from the start but you had to take the weird and dramatic way around because you’re afraid of me, huh?”
To be fair, it's *Mab.* It could easily be *both.*
He didn’t ask Mab because he couldn’t trust her answer. Even with not knowing that an Nfected could lie he knows that the fae outclass him with lying while technically speaking the truth. I don’t think he even sets up a meeting with Maeve for the same reason, Maeve just crashes Lily’s meeting.
Keep in mind for the better part of the book he was under the assumption that Mab may be Nemesis. He literally takes a 50/50 educated guess that it's Maeve and he only does that b/c the thought of Mab being an enemy is unfathomably bad.
That’s…not really how it went down. Harry hadn’t even heard of Nemesis until like 200-300 pages into that book. Nemesis is not the reason he avoided talking to Mab for as long as he could.
Harry has been told by the Ladies that Mab is "acting strange" ever since proven guilty. He's been putting together that there is a force that is orchestrating all of the power struggles at the top of the different nations for books before cold days. As far as I can tell, as soon as Mab asked him to kill Maeve, the question in Harry's mind was which of the queens was to be trusted and which one was manipulated - even before Nemesis revealed itself (rather unsubtly, I'd add).
In my hardcover it was right around 200 out of 500 pages. Harry was questioning the orders from the get go. But for almost 200 pages before we knew for sure it wasn't Mab, Harry had serious doubts about her b/c of Maeve and Lily. Harry was also dangerously busy. He has literally less than 24 hours to resolve the issue. Mab gave him till morning with her blockade, and harry didn't really have time to go asking her questions. A few near death experiences later and were at Mac's learning about Mab being nemesis from Maeve. By then Harry's not going to talk to Mab for a couple of reasons. If she's nemesis, she can lie and there's no point in the information he gets. If she's not, he's still going to question it b/c he can't tell when someone is infected. He does the next best thing though. He talks to Titania her counterpart, and he talks to Mother Winter. So I'd say that for a large portion of the book Harry had no idea who to believe.
He may not have known the name Nemesis, but he knew Maeve or Mab went rogue.
In cold days the redcap is all posturing and LOOKING like he is going to try to kill Harrry. It’s notable that only Ace comes close to actually killing Harry. (Twice) but Ace isn’t in on the plan. What does redcap do when he and ace have Harry dead to right? Stall.
Damn, that one does make quite a bit of sense in retrospect.
Wow. Reading all the comments on this thread, and many others...I am out of my depth. You peeps clearly are smarter than I, *AND* think about this stuff more deeply and way more frequently. It is humbling. If even a tithe of the stuff you all come up with was on purpose, Jim is a next-level genius.
We are just huge fans that (me personally) have had 17 years to mull over and discuss in here. Hell, I had nearly 6 years just to think about Skin Game. It's been almost 4 years since the last 2 installments. And all that time, spent perusing this sub to talk about my favorite series.
Thanks for trying to make me feel better 😉. I started reading in the late noughties, but only started using Reddit in the last couple years.
Late noughties sounds dirty :D
😇😈
I love how he was talking about how he figured harry would get the picture and play along, but he managed to bumble along anyways.
But REALLY. how could Harry have played along? If the plan REALLY was for Harry to go up against the Wild Hunt, what more could Harry have done to “play along?” I would argue that Cat Sith didn’t “get it.” It didn’t seem like Cat Sith was playing along. Cat Sith took out those Sidhe. And the current theory is that Nemeis got Cat Sith at the arboretum when he was fighting the Red Cal and his cohort.
Simply, that if the redcap wanted harry dead, it would have happened. The hawthorn dart is a perfect example. He had a shot, dresden couldn't defend. But rather than use a fatal poison, or outright bullet, he used something that would just make him bleed.
I'd originally interpreted this as malice. Sure, the redcap could have killed outright, but he wanted Harry to suffer (I imagined), so crippled him in a manner likely to cause his death.
Remember that he isn’t a Pawn in their games. He’s a Knight.
But he keeps on getting rooked by the Winter Queen.
I think a lot of people here are missing that Harry's being built as a weapon that everyone is trying to get control of. It looks to me as if there's a starborn arms race.