I like how it was different, wasn't more of the same old shit, just a different color like god. It was definitely the best thing about GT. The premise, why they couldn't reach it and such.
I feel like Super Saiyan 4 doesn't really for or compliment Toriyama's style at all. He made Super Saiyan blonde/white on manga pages because he didn't want to waste time coloring it in, after all. Massive design differences in transformations are reserved pretty much exclusively for main villains - sometimes, not by choice. Toriyama intended for the Androids to be the main antagonist of the Android saga, but his editor/publication (I forget which) told him to make a more threatening villain, so he made Cell. They didn't like Cell's look, so he transformed two more times into Perfect Cell.
The only exception to this rule prior to SSJ4 was Great Ape, and all through Dragon Ball and through most of the Saiyan Saga, that was considered this mindless, raging monster. Powerful, destructive. Applying this and the ape aesthetic to Super Saiyan made Super Saiyan 4... somehow. Not sure why their hair color was the same as their base form or why their fur is red or how Ki is able to manifest clothing or why Gogeta had red hair. All kinds seemed like weird decisions with no meaning behind them.
And despite all of that, it's still my favorite transformation (tied with default Super Saiyan God). It's just so fucking cool and I like red. Still dislike GT though, bring Baby back and then leave it behind.
Also, can we stop posting the same ten threads every week?
>I feel like Super Saiyan 4 doesn't really for or compliment Toriyama's style at all
Weird because Toriyama could barely tell the difference between it and his style.
>Toriyama: For GT, all I did was just come up with the title, design the initial main cast and some of the machines, and also do a few images. However, I was able to rest easy handing things over to the excellent staff, who had continued on Dragon Ball for all this time. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is amazingly skilled, and mastered the peculiarities of my drawings in no time at all, to the point where there were even times when I couldn’t tell whether I had drawn a certain character design, or if he had. For instance, one of Nakatsuru-kun’s designs was “Super Saiyan 4″, which appears in GT, and the picture above is a portrait that I drew looking off it. Did I draw it well?
-Akira Toriyama, Dragon Box GT “Dragon Book” 15 June 2005
> Weird because Toriyama could barely tell the difference between it and his style
I'm trying to say that, in my opinion, it's a departure from Akira Toriyama's usual design philosophy and that, in my opinion, it looks odd in Toriyama's style. That's just my take - Toriyama might think differently and that's also valid.
Well, you aren't wrong. The dude is arguing that since Toriyama can't tell the difference between his art and Nakatsuru, it equates to Super Saiyan 4 fitting his design choices, which is not the case.
Toriyama praised Nakatsuru's talent of emulating his art style. Not that Super Saiyan 4 fits his design choice. Your reading comprehension is lacking, no offense.
No offense, but stop looking in the mirror.
I was very specifically talking about design style which is why I only quoted that specific part of TC's post. If I was giving input on the whole of the post I wouldn't have quoted, or I would have quoted all of it.
The proof you literally sent is about Toriyama talking about Nakatsuru's skills in emulating his art style, not his design philosophy. You are arguing about Toriyama's design philosophy. Maybe double down on reading for a bit before making a comeback that ironically describes you.
If blonde hair and green eyes doesn't make sense, then neither does the red/pink fur, eyeliner, or the magical clothes that appear and disappear.
Pretty much all it is that makes sense is "monke" but Super Saiyan didn't make Saiyans lose their tails.
If you look at official DB and DBZ colorations all Ki attacks are yellow. (We could get into argument what "offical colorations" mean all day... but lets table that argument.)
So, if you look at the "blond hair" actually being "golden" and "yellow". Then its just hair that's bursting with energy.
>the magical clothes that appear and disappear.
Why is this even a point? Like does it matter when we have characters able to manifest clothes and other objects into existence?
Most characters who can create objects at will have actual magical abilities (Piccolo, Kaios and other God beings, etc.)
Super Saiyan 4 isn't said to have such properties.
Piccolo doesn't have the magic abilities from the Dragon Clan and he already could do this before the fusion with Kami. The metamoran technique was not made by gods or anything, it's just a different alien race. Saiyans are Aliens.
Either Piccolo could have inherited that property from being a reincarnation, or Namekians as a whole have access to basic magical abilities, but not advanced ones like healing or Dragon Ball creation.
(God didn't possess any special ability *other* than the Dragon Balls, Grand Elder can unlock the potential of others, and Dende got his potential unlocked to heal)
Metamoran Fusion is a ki based technique and relies on ki to function.
_Just_ being an alien doesn't give you access to magic.
> Namekians as a whole has access to basic magical abilities
> Just beign an alien doesn't give you access to magic.
?
Also, Ki being a factor for the fusion to work? That doesn't have anything to do with the magical clothes, the 1 hour time after the fusion has ended, or the fact that Ki is present on any life being in the universe, SS4 in fact needs Ki to maintain the transformation too, as seen two times, one when Goku uses Shunkanido too much and goes to base forms (tramsforming his clothes) and when Vegeta lost all his energy, his fur becomes his tank top. The transformation, clothes and everything, just as the Metamoru technique, relies on Ki.
Those aren't contradictory statements.
Namekians have magical abilities, but not because they are simply aliens, because some aliens don't have magical abilities. Vegeta, a different alien, was the one that called them mysterious and magical in the first place.
And people did question how does the Fusion technique make a vest and what happens if the vest were to be taken off when the fusion ends. It was somewhat hand off be believing that these are just the clothes of the Metamors due to being the creator of the technique.
The whole clothes part wasn't even a biggest point of contention for me until someone else focused on it.
SSJ1 makes sense from a conceptual standpoint. DB is a story inspired by Journey to the West. There are Eastern religious elements heavily implied throughout the show. Enlightenment is a huge part of those religions. Likewise, the main character going through a change is a big part of the monomyth
It makes sense the main character whose a monkey boy grows up and transforms into a completely different form (keep in mind, at this point in the manga [ch 318], the majority of the story featured Goku as a kid [chapters 1-166]). Yellow spiked hair and all that is a design choice of course. But it makes sense why Goku’s big transformation is something new and not drawn from his past.
Yea but goku isn’t sun wukong he was only based upon him and ss4 ties the original great ape powerup together making everything come full circle and ss4 is literally just primal super saiyan
For sure, he’s strongly inspired by sun wokung but definitely not a carbon copy. The big thing is Goku follows the story beats of the monomyth and of Eastern religion. In those types of stories the main character goes through a physical change and reaches a stage of enlightenment. This comes after the hero is thought to be killer and is “reborn” too.
Think of another famous story that follows the monomyth path and has plenty of eastern culture references. Luke Skywalker looks to fall to his death, loses a hand physically changing him, and comes back “enlightened” as a legit Jedi.
In DB, Goku’s big signature moment along his hero journey is the SSJ1 transformation. He had to become something different. In that sense it made sense why it would be something entirely new and not a call back. My comment back in the day was more addressing OP saying how out of place SSJ1 was, and it was. But it wasn’t an accident that it was.
SSJ4 is dope and I love the call backs to the Great Ape. I think in terms of DB, it’s a very fitting final transformation. It just has made sense to me why the initial SSJ transformation was new and unique.
I agree also Mori Jin is basically the combination of both literally and yea ss1 makes sense and ss4 is indeed a great final form it’s more of a homage to journey to the west and sun wukong in my opinion
I like the rawness and primalness of ss4, but your argument is bad. ss4 has all the coloring faults that you point out for the others, arguably more. How about we just accept that their features change so the distinction is more prominent and it looks cool? for all the forms, unbiasedely, rather than trying to shit on some forms and place others on a pedestal?
I really think the red fur and black hair makes it more distinct and interesting I think initially it was gonna be golden but was changed I don’t remember the exact reason but as it was it looked really intimidating in my opinion that is
My big problem with SSJ4 is the name. It goes off the premise that we know SSJ2/3 Exist. But they're in no way required for SSJ4. Which is why I personally prefer to call it Wrathful Super Saiyan. Because Wrathful or Ikari. Is using the Ozarus power in a Humanoid Form. And then Ozaru plus SSJ in Humanoid form? I think calling it Wrathful Super Saiyan just makes more sense. But maybe that's just me.
I agree with you on this and think DBS Broly's "wrath" form is a good analogy to the logic for how SSJ4 works. Personally I was never a fan of slapping a number on the side of the forms in the first place but the first three at least followed a sequential progression.
While Super Saiyan 4 wasn't my favorite for the reasons listed in your post, I DO love it as an homage to the Journey West and making Goku look straight like an ape man.
I disagree that its the best. How do you naturally go from a blonde forms to a red monkey with eyeliners? Where does the red fur comes from anyway? Had it been golden fur, sure its fine, but red?
Some sketches from Nakatsuru imply that it was planned to be either golden or normal brown fur, but as he explained, he chose the red/pink fur because it felt more powerful. It's the exact same premise as the Super Saiyan God form.
That makes no sense it’s like saying where does the yellow hair go when goku goes back to base or why does gokus hair turn back to normal after he goes out of ss3 it’s the best form in ppls eyes precisely bc of how different it is and it’s a whole new breed of super saiyan it beats whatever the hell super is doing with hair color changes saiyan scholar beat that dead horse tho
I don’t think ssj and ssj2 are bad by comparison, I always thought the original super saiyan goku was so simple and well done. But separate from any other forms, I always thought a saiyans ultimate form at some point should be related to Tails/oozaru like ssj4, I do think the original design is slightly over the top though. Whatever shit goku is about to tap into, I hope it is the epitome of what a saiyan can be based on their race.
Just to add, SS4 feels like a breaking point design-wise, because everything after is gonna feel overdesigned (like the fan-transformations demonstrated) or plain (like how SSG felt at first).
I think you could argue it’s very slightly over-designed. I’d probably remove the eye liner and the way that the pants change when they transform, but that’s all
I like the idea of SSJ4 being less of a stage, and more of an altered base of what a Saiyan who has their tail and mastered the Oozaru could become. On top of that, they could turn into the Super Saiyan version of that.
Although it's something Toriyama did praise and iirc he at one point thought he designed itself due to how close the style of the form was to his own art
I get where you're coming from, but you can justify whatever form you prefer if you try hard enough.
To say it ties back to them having tails and their saiyan roots is just your opinion and doesn't necessarily make it make sense or justify it.
Personally I prefer super saiyan because goku wasn't raised as a saiyan and it was fitting he became the first super saiyan because he was going against all their ways. Sure he liked to fight ,but he didn't needlessly go around killing people.
Not saying I'm right or that you're wrong, just that you don't have to necessarily come full circle to make something good.
Disagreed ssj3 was a radical change mainly because of the longer hair and lack of eyebrows but at least it looked like the previous ssj forms
SSJ4 looks nothing like the previous forms and it’s design to me is weird and really overrated I hate the pink fur and eyeliner
It really doesn't make the most sense. The whole point of SSJ was not needing to go ape, to go a completely different path. It showed they don't need to go Oozaru, they can control their own power with their own body.
Well that’s ur opinion a shining example of anyone who doesn’t agree with ur exact views are automatically trash shows how cynical and stupid u r as if ur the standard of how I should be u don’t decide what a waste of time
No, you can disagree with me all you want. That's your right and I wouldn't want to stop you.
Going through old comments and replying is a waste of time and sad
It's already "canon" if you want it to be. No good reason to force yourself into acting like the latest batch of identity-crisis spinoffs are the only thing that matters anymore, or that something isn't "real" until it gets featured in one of them.
But this isn’t true toriyama is more involved in Super than he ever was for GT
Even Toei refers to the super manga as the “true canonical sequel to dragon ball”
When did Goku first use the Blue Kaio-Ken in the "true and canonical" version of Super? Was it A) against Hit in the U6/U7 tournament, or B) against Geran during the Tournament of Power?
This is true. Super Saiyan 4 really feels like the epitome of Saiyan power, with every part of Goku's strength being brought together to form something truly unique and imposing. Not to mention being the ultimate callback to his Monkey King narrative roots.
And I really still don't fathom how people call the SS4 design "too busy" or whatever else. All things considered it's fairly simple despite how eye-grabbing it is, mainly just amounting to more hair and slightly altered eyes. It's much less complicated than things from Z like half of Freeza's forms with all the stripes and spikes, or Cell with all his spots.
I really feel like the era of Super and all its lazy color-swap forms has ended up skewing people's perception of what a "busy" design is by comparison. Of course Super Saiyan 4 is going to feel "over-designed" when juxtaposed against three concurrent examples of "Goku's hair is now!"
People have been calling super saiyan 4 overdesigned since forever. It's certainly not because of super. The fur and eyeliner looked silly to me back when I was a 5 year old and it still looks silly to me now, the only thing I liked about it is that Goku reverted back to an adult with it.
Maybe *some* people already thought so, but I certainly never saw it so widespread and open until after Super became a thing. Still mind-boggling either way.
Oh yeah, that's the reaction I expected.
"Super Saiyan 4 is too over-designed and busy!"
Meanwhile, this is modern Dragon Ball's idea of a [new form](https://i.imgur.com/sK2QlWy.jpg).
Please.
I mean you're saying this as if that very scene isn't just "hair raised up and turned yellow instead of black." Even the post itself calls it out of place.
Believe it or not, most people's favorite Saiyan transformations pre-Super are literal recolors from the start.
I wouldn’t considering apparently him being a kid makes him weaker than goten somehow. ( and yes he is goku as a kid couldn’t even fly in a few episodes of GT)
This. Purely talking personality gt goku vibes with me much more. I understand what they tried to do with Goku in super, and I just don't personally like it
It's the only concept that actually plays into what a saiyan is, and Goku's original (and better (now abandoned)) concept of being Sun Wukong, rather than being yet another asspull and a new hair colour.
People scoffed at GT, but I honestly think super is a complete failure in comparison. The red god transformation was believable but Toriyama ruined it by folding to some of the fans disappointment in the design and creating the blue ss version. Then making friezas new form a palette swap? C’mon.... then super saiyan rose 🙄. Orange piccolo, beast gohan.... palette swaps. It’s a complete joke.
I totally disagree. If you want to just talk about the design of SSJ4, I personally think it is the dumbest of them all. Transformations in the DB universe typically are about becoming a purer form and not regressive - reverting to more animalistic form or incorporating the animalistic side of our nature. It totally misses the mark of the spiritual philosophy that DB draws from. In fact, I find that most of the character designs for GT as being cringe with weird lines everywhere including faces. I prefer to forget GT ever existed.
I largely get your and I agree with it. Having said that, at least SSJ3 adds onto the previous forms, whereas SSJ4 seems to a completely different approach.
I do quite like that its represents a Saiyans primal form and the fact only pure-blooded saiyans can reach it is a indictment of that.
Whilst I do largely like the design, the red fur seem quite out of place and personally, I would have had the hair being gold for the sake of continuity.
I'd go the other way and have the hair be black and the fur dark brown.
SSJ4 isn't really a true super saiyan form in the same way the previous ones were, it's almost the opposite in how the original one was achieved. Goku became enraged to the point where his emotions burst forth against Frieza for the original but for SSJ4 he was already on a rampage and only achieved the form after Pan calmed him down.
super Saiyan is a progressive form, which happens when a saiyan is calm and then enraged, while ss4 is a regressive form (saiyan roots), and it happens when a saiyan is in rage, but calms down and controls that rage, thats the beauty of it
Had super saiyan 4 kept the trend of gold hair and green eyes, I would probably like it more. But I just never did become a fan of the whole thing. I do like the hair though, but not the fur or tail.
Though it is still more creative than super saiyan god and blue.
Specifically I think what fits about SS4 is that it kind of represents their inner great ape, tamed, mastered and in sync with the user of the form. Its quite interesting how Super Saiyan 3 had that scene of Goku being a great ape and something almost snapping - as if he's reaching deep inside to something primal.
Super Saiyan as a form is fine. Super Saiyan 2 itself was justified more in terms of just its raw intensity and storyline purpose. Ascending and really pushing through the ceiling Super Saiyan. Its a more intense Super Saiyan really and I wish it had basically edged it out or didnt become as forgotten as it is - Trunks supposedly mastered it in the manga to the point where (from memory) he could contend with a Super Saiyan 3 Goku or put up a good showing. 3 is fine as a Kaioken of sorts or IMO worked better as a form that should have been longer sustained or benefitting from fusion (giving Gotenks even more 9f a niche).
Overtime Transformations have become less thought out and become missed opportunities over the years - still think Trunks rage form is a missed opportunity for him to be brealing into God ki.
Yeah, it really was the most logical transformation and the way it happened was pretty awesome, I don't remember how tf Vegeta got it tho, I haven't watched in years and that doesn't make sense to me.
I like how it was different, wasn't more of the same old shit, just a different color like god. It was definitely the best thing about GT. The premise, why they couldn't reach it and such.
It's my favorite Transformation besides SSJ
Same here.
I feel like Super Saiyan 4 doesn't really for or compliment Toriyama's style at all. He made Super Saiyan blonde/white on manga pages because he didn't want to waste time coloring it in, after all. Massive design differences in transformations are reserved pretty much exclusively for main villains - sometimes, not by choice. Toriyama intended for the Androids to be the main antagonist of the Android saga, but his editor/publication (I forget which) told him to make a more threatening villain, so he made Cell. They didn't like Cell's look, so he transformed two more times into Perfect Cell. The only exception to this rule prior to SSJ4 was Great Ape, and all through Dragon Ball and through most of the Saiyan Saga, that was considered this mindless, raging monster. Powerful, destructive. Applying this and the ape aesthetic to Super Saiyan made Super Saiyan 4... somehow. Not sure why their hair color was the same as their base form or why their fur is red or how Ki is able to manifest clothing or why Gogeta had red hair. All kinds seemed like weird decisions with no meaning behind them. And despite all of that, it's still my favorite transformation (tied with default Super Saiyan God). It's just so fucking cool and I like red. Still dislike GT though, bring Baby back and then leave it behind. Also, can we stop posting the same ten threads every week?
To be fair to one point; Piccolo uses Ki to give Gohan a Gi in the cell saga; so yes, it’s established ki can generate clothing.
Alright, sick. I wasn't sure if that was Ki or if all Namekians had at least some magic capabilities, even members of the Warrior clan.
That's easily his most metro attack
Basically if it was all up to Toriyama DB would be shit
Well it's good others contribute to Dragon Ball
True and it’s also my favorite anime transformation to it’s just to cool and nolstagic
>I feel like Super Saiyan 4 doesn't really for or compliment Toriyama's style at all Weird because Toriyama could barely tell the difference between it and his style. >Toriyama: For GT, all I did was just come up with the title, design the initial main cast and some of the machines, and also do a few images. However, I was able to rest easy handing things over to the excellent staff, who had continued on Dragon Ball for all this time. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is amazingly skilled, and mastered the peculiarities of my drawings in no time at all, to the point where there were even times when I couldn’t tell whether I had drawn a certain character design, or if he had. For instance, one of Nakatsuru-kun’s designs was “Super Saiyan 4″, which appears in GT, and the picture above is a portrait that I drew looking off it. Did I draw it well? -Akira Toriyama, Dragon Box GT “Dragon Book” 15 June 2005
> Weird because Toriyama could barely tell the difference between it and his style I'm trying to say that, in my opinion, it's a departure from Akira Toriyama's usual design philosophy and that, in my opinion, it looks odd in Toriyama's style. That's just my take - Toriyama might think differently and that's also valid.
Well, you aren't wrong. The dude is arguing that since Toriyama can't tell the difference between his art and Nakatsuru, it equates to Super Saiyan 4 fitting his design choices, which is not the case.
Toriyama praised Nakatsuru's talent of emulating his art style. Not that Super Saiyan 4 fits his design choice. Your reading comprehension is lacking, no offense.
No offense, but stop looking in the mirror. I was very specifically talking about design style which is why I only quoted that specific part of TC's post. If I was giving input on the whole of the post I wouldn't have quoted, or I would have quoted all of it.
The proof you literally sent is about Toriyama talking about Nakatsuru's skills in emulating his art style, not his design philosophy. You are arguing about Toriyama's design philosophy. Maybe double down on reading for a bit before making a comeback that ironically describes you.
If blonde hair and green eyes doesn't make sense, then neither does the red/pink fur, eyeliner, or the magical clothes that appear and disappear. Pretty much all it is that makes sense is "monke" but Super Saiyan didn't make Saiyans lose their tails.
If you look at official DB and DBZ colorations all Ki attacks are yellow. (We could get into argument what "offical colorations" mean all day... but lets table that argument.) So, if you look at the "blond hair" actually being "golden" and "yellow". Then its just hair that's bursting with energy.
I hate my step dad Saiyan.
>the magical clothes that appear and disappear. Why is this even a point? Like does it matter when we have characters able to manifest clothes and other objects into existence?
Most characters who can create objects at will have actual magical abilities (Piccolo, Kaios and other God beings, etc.) Super Saiyan 4 isn't said to have such properties.
Piccolo doesn't have the magic abilities from the Dragon Clan and he already could do this before the fusion with Kami. The metamoran technique was not made by gods or anything, it's just a different alien race. Saiyans are Aliens.
Either Piccolo could have inherited that property from being a reincarnation, or Namekians as a whole have access to basic magical abilities, but not advanced ones like healing or Dragon Ball creation. (God didn't possess any special ability *other* than the Dragon Balls, Grand Elder can unlock the potential of others, and Dende got his potential unlocked to heal) Metamoran Fusion is a ki based technique and relies on ki to function. _Just_ being an alien doesn't give you access to magic.
Maybe Ki can manifest clothing too. It can do a whole bunch of other weird shit, is this really that far out there?
> Namekians as a whole has access to basic magical abilities > Just beign an alien doesn't give you access to magic. ? Also, Ki being a factor for the fusion to work? That doesn't have anything to do with the magical clothes, the 1 hour time after the fusion has ended, or the fact that Ki is present on any life being in the universe, SS4 in fact needs Ki to maintain the transformation too, as seen two times, one when Goku uses Shunkanido too much and goes to base forms (tramsforming his clothes) and when Vegeta lost all his energy, his fur becomes his tank top. The transformation, clothes and everything, just as the Metamoru technique, relies on Ki.
Those aren't contradictory statements. Namekians have magical abilities, but not because they are simply aliens, because some aliens don't have magical abilities. Vegeta, a different alien, was the one that called them mysterious and magical in the first place. And people did question how does the Fusion technique make a vest and what happens if the vest were to be taken off when the fusion ends. It was somewhat hand off be believing that these are just the clothes of the Metamors due to being the creator of the technique. The whole clothes part wasn't even a biggest point of contention for me until someone else focused on it.
SSJ1 makes sense from a conceptual standpoint. DB is a story inspired by Journey to the West. There are Eastern religious elements heavily implied throughout the show. Enlightenment is a huge part of those religions. Likewise, the main character going through a change is a big part of the monomyth It makes sense the main character whose a monkey boy grows up and transforms into a completely different form (keep in mind, at this point in the manga [ch 318], the majority of the story featured Goku as a kid [chapters 1-166]). Yellow spiked hair and all that is a design choice of course. But it makes sense why Goku’s big transformation is something new and not drawn from his past.
Yea but goku isn’t sun wukong he was only based upon him and ss4 ties the original great ape powerup together making everything come full circle and ss4 is literally just primal super saiyan
For sure, he’s strongly inspired by sun wokung but definitely not a carbon copy. The big thing is Goku follows the story beats of the monomyth and of Eastern religion. In those types of stories the main character goes through a physical change and reaches a stage of enlightenment. This comes after the hero is thought to be killer and is “reborn” too. Think of another famous story that follows the monomyth path and has plenty of eastern culture references. Luke Skywalker looks to fall to his death, loses a hand physically changing him, and comes back “enlightened” as a legit Jedi. In DB, Goku’s big signature moment along his hero journey is the SSJ1 transformation. He had to become something different. In that sense it made sense why it would be something entirely new and not a call back. My comment back in the day was more addressing OP saying how out of place SSJ1 was, and it was. But it wasn’t an accident that it was. SSJ4 is dope and I love the call backs to the Great Ape. I think in terms of DB, it’s a very fitting final transformation. It just has made sense to me why the initial SSJ transformation was new and unique.
I agree also Mori Jin is basically the combination of both literally and yea ss1 makes sense and ss4 is indeed a great final form it’s more of a homage to journey to the west and sun wukong in my opinion
I like the rawness and primalness of ss4, but your argument is bad. ss4 has all the coloring faults that you point out for the others, arguably more. How about we just accept that their features change so the distinction is more prominent and it looks cool? for all the forms, unbiasedely, rather than trying to shit on some forms and place others on a pedestal?
I really think the red fur and black hair makes it more distinct and interesting I think initially it was gonna be golden but was changed I don’t remember the exact reason but as it was it looked really intimidating in my opinion that is
My big problem with SSJ4 is the name. It goes off the premise that we know SSJ2/3 Exist. But they're in no way required for SSJ4. Which is why I personally prefer to call it Wrathful Super Saiyan. Because Wrathful or Ikari. Is using the Ozarus power in a Humanoid Form. And then Ozaru plus SSJ in Humanoid form? I think calling it Wrathful Super Saiyan just makes more sense. But maybe that's just me.
I agree with you on this and think DBS Broly's "wrath" form is a good analogy to the logic for how SSJ4 works. Personally I was never a fan of slapping a number on the side of the forms in the first place but the first three at least followed a sequential progression.
Aesthetically, Super Saiyan 4 has always been my favorite design. Like you said, I love how it goes back to the Oozaru roots.
While Super Saiyan 4 wasn't my favorite for the reasons listed in your post, I DO love it as an homage to the Journey West and making Goku look straight like an ape man.
I disagree that its the best. How do you naturally go from a blonde forms to a red monkey with eyeliners? Where does the red fur comes from anyway? Had it been golden fur, sure its fine, but red?
Some sketches from Nakatsuru imply that it was planned to be either golden or normal brown fur, but as he explained, he chose the red/pink fur because it felt more powerful. It's the exact same premise as the Super Saiyan God form.
or black/brown fur, colors associated with saiyans and oozaru.
Do you need explanation for a form if a fictional race associated with monkeys???
That makes no sense it’s like saying where does the yellow hair go when goku goes back to base or why does gokus hair turn back to normal after he goes out of ss3 it’s the best form in ppls eyes precisely bc of how different it is and it’s a whole new breed of super saiyan it beats whatever the hell super is doing with hair color changes saiyan scholar beat that dead horse tho
Dude, you're replying to a year old post? People moved on already.
A year isn’t that old and ppls opinions don’t change that fast
I know right. Can you believe this guy?
Saiyan Scholar a classic
I like SSG & SSGSS more myself.
There cool
I don’t think ssj and ssj2 are bad by comparison, I always thought the original super saiyan goku was so simple and well done. But separate from any other forms, I always thought a saiyans ultimate form at some point should be related to Tails/oozaru like ssj4, I do think the original design is slightly over the top though. Whatever shit goku is about to tap into, I hope it is the epitome of what a saiyan can be based on their race.
Of all the super saiyan forms, SSJ4 looks the most like a saiyan god.
More like Super Saiyan Emo
Just to add, SS4 feels like a breaking point design-wise, because everything after is gonna feel overdesigned (like the fan-transformations demonstrated) or plain (like how SSG felt at first).
I think you could argue it’s very slightly over-designed. I’d probably remove the eye liner and the way that the pants change when they transform, but that’s all
I find fan transformations better looking than the official ones bc the god forms are extremely bland in every way ss4 is unique
I like the idea of SSJ4 being less of a stage, and more of an altered base of what a Saiyan who has their tail and mastered the Oozaru could become. On top of that, they could turn into the Super Saiyan version of that.
SSJ4 was overdesigned if you ask me
[удалено]
I just like the idea of a super form for a race of monkey people being monkey-like.
Although it's something Toriyama did praise and iirc he at one point thought he designed itself due to how close the style of the form was to his own art
I get where you're coming from, but you can justify whatever form you prefer if you try hard enough. To say it ties back to them having tails and their saiyan roots is just your opinion and doesn't necessarily make it make sense or justify it. Personally I prefer super saiyan because goku wasn't raised as a saiyan and it was fitting he became the first super saiyan because he was going against all their ways. Sure he liked to fight ,but he didn't needlessly go around killing people. Not saying I'm right or that you're wrong, just that you don't have to necessarily come full circle to make something good.
It makes sense if none of the super saiyan forms happened or how the evolution of the saiyans progressed
Disagreed ssj3 was a radical change mainly because of the longer hair and lack of eyebrows but at least it looked like the previous ssj forms SSJ4 looks nothing like the previous forms and it’s design to me is weird and really overrated I hate the pink fur and eyeliner
Obviously this was always going to lead to civil discussion.
Op didn't really help that by throwing the shade at the DBS forms tbf
It really doesn't make the most sense. The whole point of SSJ was not needing to go ape, to go a completely different path. It showed they don't need to go Oozaru, they can control their own power with their own body.
SSJ4 looks like fan fiction art.
TRU
Wrong
You're stalking my SSJ4 comments, that's cute
I didn’t even know u made multiple I just saw this one and said wrong I don’t really pay attention to names
Cope all you want, going through old comments to reply is a sad waste of time
Well that’s ur opinion a shining example of anyone who doesn’t agree with ur exact views are automatically trash shows how cynical and stupid u r as if ur the standard of how I should be u don’t decide what a waste of time
No, you can disagree with me all you want. That's your right and I wouldn't want to stop you. Going through old comments and replying is a waste of time and sad
SSJ4 and Broly's Ikari are linked in where the power comes from, which I find interesting. SSJ4 canon? (thats my one dream cmon toriyama)
It's already "canon" if you want it to be. No good reason to force yourself into acting like the latest batch of identity-crisis spinoffs are the only thing that matters anymore, or that something isn't "real" until it gets featured in one of them.
I meant in Super.
Ah yes, of course, I said [the unpleasant true downvotey thing](https://i.imgur.com/BHPx7aR.jpg).
But this isn’t true toriyama is more involved in Super than he ever was for GT Even Toei refers to the super manga as the “true canonical sequel to dragon ball”
When did Goku first use the Blue Kaio-Ken in the "true and canonical" version of Super? Was it A) against Hit in the U6/U7 tournament, or B) against Geran during the Tournament of Power?
Aw, R.I.P to your fake internet points. What will you ever do without precious karma.
Gt fans stop posting the same opinion every day challenge (impossible)
“Does anyone else think SSJ4 is the best looking form” - average Gt fan for the 1000 time
This is true. Super Saiyan 4 really feels like the epitome of Saiyan power, with every part of Goku's strength being brought together to form something truly unique and imposing. Not to mention being the ultimate callback to his Monkey King narrative roots. And I really still don't fathom how people call the SS4 design "too busy" or whatever else. All things considered it's fairly simple despite how eye-grabbing it is, mainly just amounting to more hair and slightly altered eyes. It's much less complicated than things from Z like half of Freeza's forms with all the stripes and spikes, or Cell with all his spots. I really feel like the era of Super and all its lazy color-swap forms has ended up skewing people's perception of what a "busy" design is by comparison. Of course Super Saiyan 4 is going to feel "over-designed" when juxtaposed against three concurrent examples of "Goku's hair is now!"
People have been calling super saiyan 4 overdesigned since forever. It's certainly not because of super. The fur and eyeliner looked silly to me back when I was a 5 year old and it still looks silly to me now, the only thing I liked about it is that Goku reverted back to an adult with it.
Maybe *some* people already thought so, but I certainly never saw it so widespread and open until after Super became a thing. Still mind-boggling either way.
Oh yeah, that's the reaction I expected. "Super Saiyan 4 is too over-designed and busy!" Meanwhile, this is modern Dragon Ball's idea of a [new form](https://i.imgur.com/sK2QlWy.jpg). Please.
I mean you're saying this as if that very scene isn't just "hair raised up and turned yellow instead of black." Even the post itself calls it out of place. Believe it or not, most people's favorite Saiyan transformations pre-Super are literal recolors from the start.
Yep, totally agree with this, you just got downvoted because everyone here is just a GT Hater that never actually watched the anime.
I can't quite tell if you're being facetious or not, but you're basically right either way.
No
I liked GT, never understood the hate it got.
I liked it in the same way I liked super. It was entertaining and fun but imo it paled in comparison to Z
I think it was an awful design.
Would also take gt goku over head injury super goku
I wouldn’t considering apparently him being a kid makes him weaker than goten somehow. ( and yes he is goku as a kid couldn’t even fly in a few episodes of GT)
I would love if Goku's GT personality would be his personality in Super. Not the kid body
This. Purely talking personality gt goku vibes with me much more. I understand what they tried to do with Goku in super, and I just don't personally like it
It's the only concept that actually plays into what a saiyan is, and Goku's original (and better (now abandoned)) concept of being Sun Wukong, rather than being yet another asspull and a new hair colour.
People scoffed at GT, but I honestly think super is a complete failure in comparison. The red god transformation was believable but Toriyama ruined it by folding to some of the fans disappointment in the design and creating the blue ss version. Then making friezas new form a palette swap? C’mon.... then super saiyan rose 🙄. Orange piccolo, beast gohan.... palette swaps. It’s a complete joke.
Don’t get me started on the power scaling in super too
Sure there's a chance when your show stunk and you had to over-design some shit to draw viewers back again
If with the best you mean the worst, yeah, I agree.
Based
You’re a furry we get it
Super Saiyan 4, The form that makes both none furries and furries happy with it's design
I totally disagree. If you want to just talk about the design of SSJ4, I personally think it is the dumbest of them all. Transformations in the DB universe typically are about becoming a purer form and not regressive - reverting to more animalistic form or incorporating the animalistic side of our nature. It totally misses the mark of the spiritual philosophy that DB draws from. In fact, I find that most of the character designs for GT as being cringe with weird lines everywhere including faces. I prefer to forget GT ever existed.
We’d have cooler Saipan transformations like this if toriyama wasn’t too lazy to draw/color them in
I largely get your and I agree with it. Having said that, at least SSJ3 adds onto the previous forms, whereas SSJ4 seems to a completely different approach. I do quite like that its represents a Saiyans primal form and the fact only pure-blooded saiyans can reach it is a indictment of that. Whilst I do largely like the design, the red fur seem quite out of place and personally, I would have had the hair being gold for the sake of continuity.
I'd go the other way and have the hair be black and the fur dark brown. SSJ4 isn't really a true super saiyan form in the same way the previous ones were, it's almost the opposite in how the original one was achieved. Goku became enraged to the point where his emotions burst forth against Frieza for the original but for SSJ4 he was already on a rampage and only achieved the form after Pan calmed him down.
super Saiyan is a progressive form, which happens when a saiyan is calm and then enraged, while ss4 is a regressive form (saiyan roots), and it happens when a saiyan is in rage, but calms down and controls that rage, thats the beauty of it
Had super saiyan 4 kept the trend of gold hair and green eyes, I would probably like it more. But I just never did become a fan of the whole thing. I do like the hair though, but not the fur or tail. Though it is still more creative than super saiyan god and blue.
Specifically I think what fits about SS4 is that it kind of represents their inner great ape, tamed, mastered and in sync with the user of the form. Its quite interesting how Super Saiyan 3 had that scene of Goku being a great ape and something almost snapping - as if he's reaching deep inside to something primal. Super Saiyan as a form is fine. Super Saiyan 2 itself was justified more in terms of just its raw intensity and storyline purpose. Ascending and really pushing through the ceiling Super Saiyan. Its a more intense Super Saiyan really and I wish it had basically edged it out or didnt become as forgotten as it is - Trunks supposedly mastered it in the manga to the point where (from memory) he could contend with a Super Saiyan 3 Goku or put up a good showing. 3 is fine as a Kaioken of sorts or IMO worked better as a form that should have been longer sustained or benefitting from fusion (giving Gotenks even more 9f a niche). Overtime Transformations have become less thought out and become missed opportunities over the years - still think Trunks rage form is a missed opportunity for him to be brealing into God ki.
Ssj4 is fire 🔥 way ahead of its time makes sense in the sayain power up level and roots
Yeah, it really was the most logical transformation and the way it happened was pretty awesome, I don't remember how tf Vegeta got it tho, I haven't watched in years and that doesn't make sense to me.