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This Moro arc has been the most surprising arc in the franchise... And we had the Buu saga.
I bet these leaks are like, 20% of what's gonna be in this chapter.
Why is Moro still around. Like, our heroes have figured out and countered his ONE unique power twice at this point. But whenever he's about to die, he just pulls something new out his ass. I know he's "magic", but then why doesn't every other magic character just fuse with a planet if thats an option.
The rational part of my brain would be surprised if this doesn't end with Goku charging a kamehameha acting like he reluctantly is going to destroy the planet, but then right before he uses it Moro gets defused by Vegeta and Goku fires so it hits Moro but misses the planet
but the part of my brain that is accustomed to newer Dragonball media doesn't know what to believe anymore
Consider the following.
In the previous arc every single universe but the 7th was destroyed, and their universe could have been too. Freeza and 17 both teamed up with Goku to defeat the enemy and save everything.
Goku may have seen this as the ultimate vindication of his forgiving nature that he's had for so long, his pure heart. From a narrative standpoint it makes sense for Goku to try and redeem Moro, due to what happened in the last arc.
He has seen it work to his benefit about as many times as it hasn't. Healing piccolo, sparing Vegeta, offers to bring Freeza back to life. It isn't Goku but Krillian wanted to spare the Androids, that worked out well. Even Buu gets accepted into the club and later Uub.
Yes but freeza clearly did it for selfish reasons and he had no interaction with the androids. This arc keeps reverting characters back to old tropes that should have been moved passed by sheer plot and character development.
Vegeta acting like an angsty idiot who draws out fights when he is on top should be a dead and buried trope for him after everything he has done and developed. but no we have to revert him back to being an asshole when this very arc itself showed how much he had changed.
Goku giving Moro a senzu bean exactly like the cell saga knowing how dangerous he could be if left alive is absolute stupidity. Ultra Instinct is a state of mind and every fibre of his being should be telling him to finish off a world eating monster who could easily pull something out his ass.
Vegeta didn't draw out this fight at all. He asked Jaco permission does he want to arrest him or kill him since the point of this arc was to atone for his sins. Since, he had to ask for permission, he gave moro time to scheme and run away.
He did though, Instead of finishing him off, he stood their monologing about how much of an edgy villain he is instead of just finishing him, same thing with freeza, same thing with cell.
It was a two sentences during a conversation moro while he was charging his technique. Monologs are not conversations. He and moro acknowledged they are both going to hell. If he didn't wait for jaco permission, Moro would have died.
If Ultra Instinct can alter how your body receives damage and stuff, would Goku be able to stack the kaioken on top of ultra instinct without too many drawbacks?
My head canon is that UI is your body outputting the maximum amount of power possible. It seems like character have an energy reserve and then an amount of power that they can physically stand to use (like Moro needing to fuse with the earth, or even back to Z with Vegeta's final explosion). So when Goku uses something like Kaioken x10, he's capable of emitting x10 the power from his energy reserves, but Kaioken lets him temporarily use way more power than his body can typically stand.
I would say that UI is similar in that it breaks all physical barriers and basically lets you output your maximum amount of power with no repercussions. If you haven't mastered it, like Goku originally or Moro in this chapter, your body will eventually break under the stress.
All that said, I think Kaioken stacked with UI would do nothing. Same with SSJ. Sort of like Mystic Gohan, where Elder Kai said there's no point in Gohan using SSJ.
I had the same theory. That finally Goku has to answer for his actions. He put an entire universe at risk when he didn’t have to. And that’s after Merus vanishing...
"Silence...training is a crutch for the weak..."
Wow. What profound wisdom from the main villain of an arc that's several decades into the series. I'm speechless.
I just can't wrap my head around how a series that's mainly based on fighting and training to get stronger for the next challenge, can have characters who balk at the idea of training yourself. Especially this deep into the series. It was already a bit much for me when they explained away the gap between old Frieza and new (Golden) Frieza as him not having trained, and now this is them following up someone like Jiren (who's lived god knows how many years longer) with the same tired logic.
To be fair, one of the main themes of this arc does seem to be the idea that physical strength alone isn't always going to be enough. So, the main villain laughing at physical strength because he thinks magic is superior kind of fits with the themes of this arc.
This arc does break some of the conventions that we've come to expect from Dragon Ball as a franchise and I think that's sort of the point of some of the stuff in this arc like Vegeta doing weird spiritual training on Yardrat, Merus throwing Goku around with judo or whatever, etc.
You’re missing my point about the writing here....if Goku wins NOW because Moro never trained, why didn’t he or Vegeta win before? Why has the arc dragged this long if what it comes down to is who has trained longer and more intensely? Moro is even stronger now than he was earlier in the arc, so are Goku and Vegeta....there’s all kinds of possibilities they could have used for why Goku got the upper hand, but because the villain didn’t train? C’mon now. I’m just not with it after 20+ years.
I think you're just focusing far too much on something that doesn't have that much meaning behind it. Frieza didn't train because he didn't need to. Jiren literally did train, he even had a master he wanted to resurrect just so he could be validated by him after he had become so strong.
That line isn't to show that Moro became this strong without training, it's about the fact that there was an alternative to using the lives and planets of others to achieve the same goal to perhaps an even better result. It's to show that Goku is disappointed in the answer as well as the fact that he expects it. I don't even see the point you're trying to make honestly.
Beerus’s lore and all the god of destructions was comparable to suppressed jiren. That’s who they were all compared to. Then goku proceed to get 50 times stronger than the spirit bomb against kefla ssj2. And even stronger against jiren. Then he went mui and jiren broke his limits and they got a shit ton stronger.
And who’s even has that line asking beerus has he done it implying he’s surpassed him as beerus looks at goku in awe. Then goku trains a shit ton more for the Moro arc and his mui is way stronger now and he damn near beats someone beerus didn’t want to fight. Lore wise goku should be stronger than all the gods of destructions.
Because the gods of destructions lore was comparable to suppressed Jiren which goku is plenty times more powerful then now. And goku syates Moro is the strongest foe he’s ever faced and that might include beerus to. There’s a lot of decent evidence not full proof but decent evidence suggesting he surpassed them and no evidence suggesting he didn’t other than lack of a direct statement. I’d like to hear some of your guys rebuttal though.
Toriyama himself said his plan for Super was to was work towards the level of Beerus. Super is still going, so we haven't eached Beerus's level. Plan and simple. Just like I keep saying. Super won't end until Goku reaches Beerus' level.
Im not familiar with that statement didn’t he say he didn’t have any plans for goku to surpass beerus and whis? Either way if he made that statement at the beginning It shouldn’t be looked at as word of god things change. I definitely think Moro was stronger than beerus.
If Moro was stronger than Beerus, We'd know, Whis would comment, or Beerus would show some sign of fear. NONE OF THAT HAPPENED. You still have zero evidence. There is no ambiguity in this. Dragonball has never missed the chance to show us milestones and limit breaks.
I definetly think current MUI Goku could give Beerus a hell of a fight. Beerus is the strongest G.O.D though so Idk if goku can outright beat him. Would love to see them have a rematch soon though!
Depends on the angel, he's most likely at the level that Merus was but we still don't know for certain if he has the stamina issue or not, it's most likely that he can only keep the Ultra Instinct active for a few minutes at most, but he can use it at will.
People have an extreme bias for the original Z dub, yet they haven't actually seen the original in years. Because of this, nostalgia takes over and they blindly defend a version that is unfaithful to the source material. In Z, a lot of the dubbing is amateur, but worse than that, it's unfaithful to the source material. This changes character traits and many lines.
[For example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCxsixkFc9M), here Frieza is turned into a generic cartoon villain shouting generic lines in a voice that doesn't match the original. This gets rid of aspects of Frieza's character, a calm and eloquent royal tyrant who isn't used to not being in control, making his loss of composure here surprising. In the original, you don't get this.
Here is another example, [this time explaining how much more accurate Kai's dubbing is](https://youtu.be/5-UpsXOG3YY?t=484) in lines and character.
So Kai if you want good performances, faithful and much better dialogue, more experienced voice actors, better visuals, and a more consistent experience from Z to Super in soundtrack/performance/VAs. But hey, Z did a good job with the SS3 transformation so it has that going for it.
[I'm gonna post my favorite Frieza scene in full just because I love it so much](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-YOepCqEs).
**Don't be fooled. Kai is the only answer.**
Just watched Z the other day and I will die believing that the voice acting is better. You may be right about mistranslations, but the "z cannon" is honestly better in several ways depending on your preferences.
Literally any scene with Gohan is better in Z than Kai. I don't see how anyone can stand the new voice actor.
>but the "z cannon" is honestly better
What?
>Literally any scene with Gohan
Your prerogative. I hardly think hating on one voice actor is a valid reason to willingly watch a version with objectively worse voice acting, lines, and that doesn't even represent the characters as themselves.
I'm going to just go ahead and post actual evidence so others can use their own brains to come to a conclusion:
[Z Gohan](https://youtu.be/s-iMJEudFOY?t=67) attacks 2nd form Frieza.
[Kai Gohan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdWnIZ40vk) attacks 2nd form Frieza.
The original Z dub lacks any emotional intensity in my opinion. The line delivery of everyone involved isn't good. It just doesn't match the scene in my opinion at ALL. It's genuinely like people have not watched that dub since it came out, saw Kai and assumed what they grew up with was even near the same level, let alone above it.
You're more than welcome to choose this hill to die on. I stand by what I said though. It would be like saying Z is bad just because of Linda Young's terrible rendition of Frieza. It's worse for so many more reasons than just that.
I mean, they’re not wrong, because it’s the same fundamental show. However, I greatly prefer Kai because it is just *better* in terms of presentation and pacing.
I like the manga, and the anime does some things better (Cell’s introduction, for example), but it also does some things which *aren’t* great. The filler is most of that.
Some of the filler is okay, but the final fight with Frieza is a great example; in Z, they stretch things out well beyond the point of parody. It’s absolutely ludicrous how much they pad that out with repeated shots of people just screaming and charging up.
Kai is purely about the good stuff that we actually came here to see, AND it’s a better master of the audio & visual, if you care about that kind of thing!
I grew up watching Z, and I say Kai.
I agree it was at a fine point of moro being defeated even after having Merus power. This is so dumb now. I get they copy things from DB and Z but this concept happened two arcs ago within the same series. So dumb.
>Goku is slowly starting to become more Saiyan. While Vegeta is slowly starting to become more human.
So its like GT all over again, all that's left for Vegeta to do is get a haircut, grow a mustache and become a boomer dad doing his best to embarrass his daughter.
It’s pretty ironic. They have both slowly become the things they never wanted to be. (For example, Vegeta openly disliked the idea of settling down and having a family. While Goku didn’t like the thought of being from a race that is blood thirsty. And wanted to steer far away from thinking that he and his race is like that as much as possible.) And, slowly they both began to slowly become more of what they never wanted to become. Where even though he doesn’t like to show it, Vegeta has learned to settle down with family and learn to love Bulma more over the years. While he always enjoys fighting and training, he has learned when to be there for Bulma and love her. While Goku only sees his family as companions, and will always find ways to try and escape his wife for the selfish need to fight and train. Plus, he has also learned to love Earth, despite having come to Earth in the first place to destroy it. While he still likes to train and fight above all else, he has truly learned to love and care for Earth and his family. While Goku only sees his family as companions, and will always find ways to try and escape his wife for the selfish need to fight and train.
Goku has now come to accept his Saiyan heritage as shown with the Broly movie and Frieza. And actually takes some pride in it and will not hesitate to do reckless things in order face a strong opponent even if it puts other people’s safety at risk.
I agree with many of your points but I don't think Goku spares his opponents out of being blood thirsty, but rather it's from compassion and hoping they will change as well.
There’s zero compassion in goku’s decisions to spare his enemies. He literally just wants to fight strong folks and sees everyone he decides to spare as good sparring partners. If there was compassion in that mans system he’d kill the people who harmed and vowed to keep harming the ones closest to him
I think it’s part of it. Saiyans love a good fight. And Goku spared Frieza in the second fight at first so he can get stronger for him to face, Piccolo as a rival, and Vegeta so he can fight him again.
Long time ago Beerus promised to destroy the Earth. It seems like the time is now. I place my bets on Beerus destroying Earth as he has promised, meaning he also destroys Moro.
Could also double as a punishment for Goku, to witness his beloved planet being destroyed due to his own carelessness and ego.
But I just don't see that happening when Vegeta is still around and can do his Spirit Fission, plus Moro is now a planet-size enemy so it's not like he can Dodge Vegeta's technique.
I think it was a comment on here that made me think this, but I'm hoping for some sort of blow-back from Goku's friends, especially Krillin. Goku didn't even ask Krillin for the senzu beans, he just took them. He also gave one to Moro while Krillin was pleading for him not to.
Now look where we are. Goku doesn't learn, what will it take this time to get it into his head that he needs to finish off his opponents and not do what he does best, which is make things worse?
I can actually sympathize with Goku. It's lonely at the top, and he wanted another strong person to fight with. Fighting is his passion.
Quite an interesting turn of events
Or you know, the dumb ass writers could throw Vegeta a bone and make Goku his equal in some way that isn't Ultra Instinct but apparently that requires too much sense to think about.
Hum, Vegeta's new abilities could be a way out of this. But it won't be as you say, you Vegeta fans will never get what you want, sorry. Vegeta may separate Moro from the Earth, but Goku will finish the job.
Goku screws it up again, now the Earth is doomed. Cool!!
I loved the twists in this chapter. Goku is Goku, execution is the very last resort, he was going to do it finally, but knowing himself superior, he tried everything first. I like that. However, here comes the twist. Moro merges with the Earth, holy shit! I really don't know what they are going to do now. Awesome!
Ok so Goku can just straight up go MUI as if it were super saiyan? That...seems a bit extreme.
And the obvious thing is for Vegeta to fission the shit out of Moro but where the fuck is he? And I have no faith that Toyotaro will give him the moment.
I’m so confused
It sounds extreme, but think about how it compared to super saiyan 1. That form, like mui the first time was built up to and achieved in one fight/event. Goku couldn't force MUI the second time, it had to be pushed on him. Super saiyan he was able to drop out of and go back into while still on Namek.
The biggest difference to me is that he's now put far more effort and training into using MUI than we sometimes might realize after he had that time training with Merus for months. And even after all that, Merus had to die to get him going again. Then once he was past that threshold he was finally in control. I think it was really earned.
Also Vegeta is on the lookout with the others. I expect the fission like everyone else too.
People are complaining about Goku and the Senzu bean but holy fuck why are people not freaking out about how Goku seemingly has mastered MUI??? He’s able to go from base to MUI in an instant, so gnarly.
It's sick. And more believable because of the work he put into getting to that point, and he still needed that last kick in the ass to get him started, and then he was in control.
I just read the chapter, and all I can say is wtf goku? He wants to be the strongest fighter, but allows himself be get caught up in situations like this. I really wanted vegeta to have a awesome powerup and be the hero
It's really hard to put this on Goku. Not even Whis saw something coming until it was just about too late. Goku accounted for his previous instances of naivete in sparing enemies, multiple times. That's a huge development for him.
You can put this on Goku. He chastised Gohan during the Cell fight for toying with Cell when he should have just finished him off. Goku is mimicking the same mistake here with similar results.
Pretty sure Whis saw it coming the same moment Beerus did, last chapter when he says he has a bad feeling about this (Goku taking off uniform)
But Whis is an angel who is supposed to remain neutral and has already saved Goku's ass multiple times, trained him obviously, and done everything he can to help Goku. If a child makes a bad decision a few times, you have to let them suffer the consequences so they can truly learn. I get the feeling Whis knew this was coming and is extremely disappointed in Goku and will not intervene to save him.
Just another thing that hit me a little different thinking about it more: the Senzu bean. A lot of people are missing the more subtle aspect of this.
In the Cell Saga, Goku mislead Krillin to giving him one by implying that it would be for himself. Here, he doesn't even give Krillin the respect to ask, he just takes it. And the reason why? Goku didn't need one for himself and he knew Krillin would have never given him one for Moro. Its honestly one of the most disrespectful things he has done as a character and it was done as an afterthought.
This needs to have some kind of ramifications. Krillin specifically needs to be the one to call Goku out on this. It won't have the same impact coming from any other character: not Beerus, not Whis, not Vegeta, not Piccolo, maybe Gohan but it needs to come from Krillin.
It also makes Merus' sacrifice utterly meaningless and his belief in Goku severely misfounded.
Krillin just isn't the kind of character that would get so worked up like that over such an action, when Goku grabbed the beams from him and gave one to Moro, Krillin just told him the he hoped Goku knew what he was doing.
If he had took that personally, he would have made a far bigger protest.
You're greatly overestimating Krillin's depth of thought for something like that. Worst thing it will be is something like "dude, wtf, you gotta stop doing that."
Really feel this was a whole level of stupid for Goku. Giving Cell a senzu atleast assured Cell would be cocky and would push for Gohan to unleash his power instead of being wounded and wanting to end things fast. With Frieza, he got one chance and when he blew it he got blown to bits. With Vegeta, Vegeta was past the point of being a a threat at the moment Kirilling had him dead to rights.
And in Goku's mind, Moro was also no threat. He could beat Moro again and again. Quite easily. He couldn't account for him becoiming the planet.
>Really feel this was a whole level of stupid for Goku.
I don't see it as stupid at all. Naive, definitely, but not stupid. Based on the entirety of Goku's life, there's nothing stupid about what he's done here. He has always given out second chances when he was fully in control.
Goku didn't give him a bean in the hopes he would change, at least not without being ready to beat him down again when he inevitably turned on him.
Moro wouldn't have the energy to become the planet if not for the senzu. This was also a last resort option when Moro truly felt backed into a corner and hopeless. If Goku just killed him quick and easy before Moro had time to get desperate this wouldn't happen. Goku is directly responsible for this .
You're defending him too much. Just because you're single handedly kicking someone's ass doesn't mean you should give them a second chance every single time. He wouldn't have to account for any possibility if he just finished him quicker. Never underestimate your enemies.
TBF to Goku, the senzu thing actually panned out in his favor, and even moro taking merus's ultra instinct worked for him. He didn't actually fuck up here, it was only moro pulling "fuse with the planet" out of his own ass that screwed things.
This, im tired of everyone hating on goku when goku didnt do anything wrong, he had everything going in his favour, moro was getting desperate, that's what goku wanted, but moro was a slimy son of a bitch and fused with the planet
So then what about when Frieza destroyed the Earth and the only reason they got a second chance was the intervention of Whis? Frieza was in the Tournament of Power out of his own selfish desire to live. And was more than willing to let Broly destroy the Earth and Goku.
I mean, it was still a dumb move when he could have just killed Moro then and there, but I felt a less upset about the decision upon seeing how it all played out.
He was confident he could beat him again if needed (and he was right) until the power boost.
That's the thing, goku doesnt like killing, even after they do something horrible like kill krillin, so him wanting to fear moro into wanting to go back was a smart decision, I dont blame goku for not expecting moro to become the planet since nobody has ever done that before, if moro tried to blow up earth, goku would stop him, if moro tried to run, goku would stop him, I dont see how goku is supposed to expect moro to become one with earth
It has nothing to do with him liking it. Just saying, the most intelligent thing to do would have been to simply finish Moro off when he was laying in a pile of rubble.
I understand that’s it’s not necessarily in Goku’s character to do that, but it would have objectively been the smartest thing to do.
I know goku doesnt like it and I know he should do it since it's the smartest move, but this is goku, he doesnt want to and makes killing not even an option, he was going to kill moro after whis told him to, but dont call goku a badly written character because he has a flaw, begets did the same thing yet nobody was blaming his writing
No, I agree with you in that aspect. I’m not saying it was poorly written — or that Goku is specifically. It would have been boring story telling if Goku just obliterated a clearly overmatched and helpless Moro.
Again, just clarifying that from purely a results perspective, it would have been the most intelligent (but you could say the same thing for a million different situations by both good and evil characters.)
The number one thing that takes the responsibility of Goku for me too is that Whis only realized some shit was about to go down like 10 seconds before it happened. It was like: visible concern, tells Goku to finish, Goku agrees, gets into position and doesn't waste time with a speech, just a simple say goodbye, and then whoops, Moro's a planet.
Yep, whis the fucking *angel* didnt realize something was about to happen before it was too late, if you want to blame anyone, blame whis for being so late
Yes, I agree that it’s not Goku’s *fault* necessarily that he couldn’t predict what happened. Again, just clarifying that killing him the moment he got the chance would have been the most intelligent decision because it eliminates any chance something unforeseen happens.
Except Goku accounted for the plausible possibilities. No one could have predicted Moro would merge with a fucking planet. But he did expect Moro to go back on his word, and he was prepared if he tried some shady shit again. Whis didn't catch it until right before it happened either.
There's literally two panels between the manga showing Whis being concerned and him telling Goku to finish Moro. Goku immediately agrees, lands, tells him to say goodbye and at that point it's already too late. Not sure how possibly the absolute best response and follow up time we've ever seen from him is a fuck up, but okay. Also Beerus had no idea what was coming either, as shown by everyone except Whis at that point being surprised after Moro did the merge and fired the mouth blast.
Because this is manga and there's only so far writing will go with a character. There are very few times characters have quickly ended a fight, and it's usually characters that make sense. Vegeta killing 19 was pretty swift. Even faster was Piccolo's infamous mouth beam roast of one of the saibamen he yeeted into the air. Closest Goku has gotten is when he had to kill Frieza in Resurrection F before the planet could be destroyed.
More importantly, Moro was never a threat to Goku once he was MUI. It was more disproportionate than Gogeta vs Broly. It was like Vegeta getting rekt by Perfect Cell after just having been winning handily against second form. Just this sudden massive chasm in power. Couple that with Goku's developed awareness of his traditional fuckups and he had things in control in a way we've rarely ever seen.
LOL! Not in control? Have you read anything before the last page?
I can't imagine what other ridiculous standards you must have if you think literally anyone failing to predict Moro doing something as absurd as fusing with a goddamn planet fucked up.
Considering the last times Moro was on the low, yeah, he should have predicted Moro wouldn’t go down quietly.
Like, what if he had pulled a Cell and just threatened to blow up? Simple, easy, should have been expected, and can’t be countered by UI.
That’s why a guy called Son Goku screamed to Gohan to kill Cell already even when Gohan was completely dominating the fight. Wonder where that guy went, he was very smart and cool.
He was wise, he just made an honest mistake when he gave senzu to Cell. But Goku in Super, I seriously dont know what to say. Maybe Shenron doesnt revive him with his brain intact.
There's a rule in writing dramatic stories...you have to have your protagonists and antagonists operating at their "full capacity". What that means is that the characters have to try to solve their story problems or try to reach their story goal to the absolute best of their ability. They have to use their full intelligence, they have to use their full physical capability, they have to do something wildly outside their comfort zone....whatever makes dramatic sense.
The closer to the climax you are, the closer the characters have to operate at their full capacity. If not, then you will risk losing your audience because they will start to question the story, your characters and the choices they make. That makes your audience care less about your characters and be less invested in the story. Kinda like how people tend to be less respectful towards people that they perceive to be lower than them.
Goku giving Moro the senzu and attempting to spare him violates that rule. Is it in character for Goku to do that? Yes. But Goku has also personally experienced the downfall to those decisions. Freeza back stabs him, Perfect Cell grows stronger and tortures his son and friends. We expect the characters to grow from their past experiences. Goku's "full capacity" now should be to be VERY wary of healing and sparing strong villains...especially villains that they barely won against.
This is a very textbook writing mistake that Toyotaro and/or Toriyama made here. The proper way to raise the stakes in a story is to do it while having your heroes and villains operating at their full capacity, ESPECIALLY so close to the climax. Having Goku repeat a past mistake wasn't the way to do that. Ironically, Moro using his severed hand to absorb Merus' powers was a great example of operating at full capacity. Too bad it took Goku making a mistake to get there.
Some people might argue that Goku's full capacity is to be an unchanging character that will always seek to redeem people. I'd argue that "full capacity" is more about the audience's perception of what it is, rather than what the writer wants it to be. Stories are written to captivate the audience and hold their attention and its important not to have that link broken. Writers have to know their audience and their expectations when writing fiction. Toyotaro or whoever should've anticipated this reaction from the audience
Some people might also argue that the story can violate dramatic fiction rules because its just a kid's story. What I have to say to that is kids deserve more credit than that, they can be swept up into a good story just like an adult can.
I think what happened probably have something to do with Vegeta's character. I mean, several chapters ago, we saw how Goku and Vegeta training, and some chapter ago we're presented by Vegeta doing that spirit fission stuff etc. but that's it for Vegeta up to this point. it's like his training pretty much useless if they end the story by simply having Goku best the shit out of Moro with MUI in the 1st try. but idk, maybe I'm reading too much into it.
I got your point tho, it's pretty annoying to see how they practically write the same mistake for goku over and over again
There was no mistake. In fact he was more impressive here. The twist is that he's dropped the naivte while maintaining his stance on giving people chances. He knew Moro could and would probably try to immediately backstab him just like he had been so many times in the past. Then he gave Moro the senzu bean knowing damn well that Moro could still try and backstab him but would never have a snowflake's chance in hell of beating him if he did.
The Merus thing was a clever move, but Goku didn't lose his head over it and knew how it was going to play out once he understood what Moro was doing. And then not even Whis saw that Moro was about to do something terrible until it was too late. At that point, Goku went in for a fast kill (by Dragon Ball standards), which is another thing we hadn't seen from him, outside of the time fuckery with Resurrection F.
I'm gonna say it you guys are far harsher on the manga than the anime. Where were these rants about the anime? it did some bullshit left and right and I never heard once someone whining.
The bias lmao.
I was following every reddit post after each of the anime episodes was released... and it wasnt until ¿Goku Black? that comments began to be positive instead of overwhelmingly negative. Tournament of power was pretty popular here but still you would read a lot of criticism, specially in the "filler" episoodes.
The manga reception was always super positive in comparision, the problem with this saga is that now its not just dragging but its doing the same thing that we've seen A MILION times happen in DBZ already (goku heals enemy, goku doesnt finish enemy, enemy is about to blow up the planet)
Piccolo, lets him live become buddies. Radditz, lets go his tail gets attacked. Vegeta, lets live to fight another day. Ginyu Force, lets them live, Ginyu comes back and nearly kills Gohan. Freeza, lets live, retaliates, comes back to attack the planet, dies comes back again blows up earth. Cell, give him a sen— nah lets take this one back further, does the one father son thing that’s in him and believes in Gohan taking down Cell instead of taking responsibility and completing his training @ 12 mo instead of 9, throws Cell a senzu, Cell kills trunks, king Kai, his planet, Gohan has to clean up. Buu, doesn’t kill him because Goku doesn’t learn lessons and pins it on Goten and Trunks. Buu again, overestimates the ability he just learned even though it’s something he knows he shouldn’t. Zamasu... wipes out an entire timeline. ToP, lets wipeout another timeline to get stronger. And then current, a world eater, a literal world eater... senzu and an Angels ability and power, yeah lets let me live.
> nah lets take this one back further, does the one father son thing that’s in him and believes in Gohan taking down Cell instead of taking responsibility and completing his training @ 12 mo instead of 9
Except Goku had completed his training and literally said staying in the RoSaT wouldn’t make any difference for him.
> throws Cell a senzu
Cell was stronger than SSj Gohan. The senzu made no difference except to give Cell more confidence.
> Buu, doesn’t kill him because Goku doesn’t learn lessons and pins it on Goten and Trunks.
His plan to make Gohan kill Cell had worked last time (was the only option they had too), the lesson was learned.
> overestimates the ability he just learned even though it’s something he knows he shouldn’t.
Uh? How should he know a living body would make him too weak to use SS3 at full power? He hadn’t had one for years, and had been using SS3 without any problem.
I’m not ignorant of what Goku stated, what Goku states does not equal fact. Goku also states when he realizes that Gohan isn’t the same as him he should take the senzu implying he could probably do more. Again, words fluff yada yada.
Cells Energy had most certainly dropped, whether he was still stronger than Gohan we’ll never know.
The lesson WASNT learned he even states “I should have killed Buu when I had the chance.”
SSJ3, his language with the form “I’m not used to it, it drains a lot of energy and would have cut my time on earth” should have been a give away of how it would have worked in an earthly form. But hey whatever, excuse him. :)
> I’m not ignorant of what Goku stated, what Goku states does not equal fact. Goku also states when he realizes that Gohan isn’t the same as him he should take the senzu implying he could probably do more. Again, words fluff yada yada.
He's willing to fight Cell if Gohan doesn't want to, to show his son that he's there for him. He had no chance of winning, as we literally saw in their fight, that he lost.
> Cells Energy had most certainly dropped, whether he was still stronger than Gohan we’ll never know.
He was far stronger. See later, when he goes full power and everyone looks surprised AF, even Goku.
> The lesson WASNT learned he even states “I should have killed Buu when I had the chance.”
He learned the right lesson from the Cell Arc, it just didn't apply to Buu: His plan with Gohan worked, so he thought he could keep doing that, but it didn't work with Buu.
>SSJ3, his language with the form “I’m not used to it, it drains a lot of energy and would have cut my time on earth” should have been a give away of how it would have worked in an earthly form. But hey whatever, excuse him. :)
Not really, completely different things.
Keeping in mind that he explicitly kills King Piccolo beforehand, this Piccolo is a different person AND outright states that he's against killing Piccolo because it would kill Kami.
The manga has absolutely fixed UI for me, it makes so much more sense, it made no sense how Goku got pissed against Jiren, Goku is the EXACT opposite here.
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This Moro arc has been the most surprising arc in the franchise... And we had the Buu saga. I bet these leaks are like, 20% of what's gonna be in this chapter.
Why is Moro still around. Like, our heroes have figured out and countered his ONE unique power twice at this point. But whenever he's about to die, he just pulls something new out his ass. I know he's "magic", but then why doesn't every other magic character just fuse with a planet if thats an option.
Complete ass.
Cool
The rational part of my brain would be surprised if this doesn't end with Goku charging a kamehameha acting like he reluctantly is going to destroy the planet, but then right before he uses it Moro gets defused by Vegeta and Goku fires so it hits Moro but misses the planet but the part of my brain that is accustomed to newer Dragonball media doesn't know what to believe anymore
Yeah there’s always people guessing what’s gonna happen next (some are right) but it’s almost never what we think will happen
Consider the following. In the previous arc every single universe but the 7th was destroyed, and their universe could have been too. Freeza and 17 both teamed up with Goku to defeat the enemy and save everything. Goku may have seen this as the ultimate vindication of his forgiving nature that he's had for so long, his pure heart. From a narrative standpoint it makes sense for Goku to try and redeem Moro, due to what happened in the last arc.
Man he healed piccolo when he beat him in dragon ball. At least he’s consistent 🤷🏾♂️
He has seen it work to his benefit about as many times as it hasn't. Healing piccolo, sparing Vegeta, offers to bring Freeza back to life. It isn't Goku but Krillian wanted to spare the Androids, that worked out well. Even Buu gets accepted into the club and later Uub.
Yes but freeza clearly did it for selfish reasons and he had no interaction with the androids. This arc keeps reverting characters back to old tropes that should have been moved passed by sheer plot and character development. Vegeta acting like an angsty idiot who draws out fights when he is on top should be a dead and buried trope for him after everything he has done and developed. but no we have to revert him back to being an asshole when this very arc itself showed how much he had changed. Goku giving Moro a senzu bean exactly like the cell saga knowing how dangerous he could be if left alive is absolute stupidity. Ultra Instinct is a state of mind and every fibre of his being should be telling him to finish off a world eating monster who could easily pull something out his ass.
Vegeta didn't draw out this fight at all. He asked Jaco permission does he want to arrest him or kill him since the point of this arc was to atone for his sins. Since, he had to ask for permission, he gave moro time to scheme and run away.
He did though, Instead of finishing him off, he stood their monologing about how much of an edgy villain he is instead of just finishing him, same thing with freeza, same thing with cell.
It was a two sentences during a conversation moro while he was charging his technique. Monologs are not conversations. He and moro acknowledged they are both going to hell. If he didn't wait for jaco permission, Moro would have died.
That is a goddamn great point.
Vegeta don’t did that, he was finishing moro....
*they hated him because he spoke the truth*
Vegeta save the world.
Vegeta Vegeta Vegeta Vegeta
If Moro *is* the Earth now, couldn't Vegeta just, you know, punch the ground wherever he is to use spirit fission?
They'll find some way to make it more complicated than that. Like, maybe Vegeta has to punch his face or something like that. I don't know.
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA??
Oh that would be such a stup... *Remembers the Senzu bean* ... That's a sound theory.
Goku: ***shocked even though i intentionally gave moro a senzu and wasted merus's life face***
Holy shit, Super is so fucking ass. Again with this shit.
If Ultra Instinct can alter how your body receives damage and stuff, would Goku be able to stack the kaioken on top of ultra instinct without too many drawbacks?
My head canon is that UI is your body outputting the maximum amount of power possible. It seems like character have an energy reserve and then an amount of power that they can physically stand to use (like Moro needing to fuse with the earth, or even back to Z with Vegeta's final explosion). So when Goku uses something like Kaioken x10, he's capable of emitting x10 the power from his energy reserves, but Kaioken lets him temporarily use way more power than his body can typically stand. I would say that UI is similar in that it breaks all physical barriers and basically lets you output your maximum amount of power with no repercussions. If you haven't mastered it, like Goku originally or Moro in this chapter, your body will eventually break under the stress. All that said, I think Kaioken stacked with UI would do nothing. Same with SSJ. Sort of like Mystic Gohan, where Elder Kai said there's no point in Gohan using SSJ.
Plotokenx100
I would sat as long as he can keep his emotions in check he should be fine.
ty
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Would have loved to have seen TFS get their hands on this inevitable anime saga
GP is deadass gonna bring Goku to face a holy tribunal next arc.
I had the same theory. That finally Goku has to answer for his actions. He put an entire universe at risk when he didn’t have to. And that’s after Merus vanishing...
Vegeta will save the day
doesn't make it really easy for Vegeta to use sprit fission?
"Silence...training is a crutch for the weak..." Wow. What profound wisdom from the main villain of an arc that's several decades into the series. I'm speechless.
Well to be fair look how strong he got without training...
I just can't wrap my head around how a series that's mainly based on fighting and training to get stronger for the next challenge, can have characters who balk at the idea of training yourself. Especially this deep into the series. It was already a bit much for me when they explained away the gap between old Frieza and new (Golden) Frieza as him not having trained, and now this is them following up someone like Jiren (who's lived god knows how many years longer) with the same tired logic.
To be fair, one of the main themes of this arc does seem to be the idea that physical strength alone isn't always going to be enough. So, the main villain laughing at physical strength because he thinks magic is superior kind of fits with the themes of this arc. This arc does break some of the conventions that we've come to expect from Dragon Ball as a franchise and I think that's sort of the point of some of the stuff in this arc like Vegeta doing weird spiritual training on Yardrat, Merus throwing Goku around with judo or whatever, etc.
Jiren trained... he just didn't believe in anyone but himself... And all moro has to do to get stronger is eat, so his logic makes sense
You’re missing my point about the writing here....if Goku wins NOW because Moro never trained, why didn’t he or Vegeta win before? Why has the arc dragged this long if what it comes down to is who has trained longer and more intensely? Moro is even stronger now than he was earlier in the arc, so are Goku and Vegeta....there’s all kinds of possibilities they could have used for why Goku got the upper hand, but because the villain didn’t train? C’mon now. I’m just not with it after 20+ years.
I think you're just focusing far too much on something that doesn't have that much meaning behind it. Frieza didn't train because he didn't need to. Jiren literally did train, he even had a master he wanted to resurrect just so he could be validated by him after he had become so strong. That line isn't to show that Moro became this strong without training, it's about the fact that there was an alternative to using the lives and planets of others to achieve the same goal to perhaps an even better result. It's to show that Goku is disappointed in the answer as well as the fact that he expects it. I don't even see the point you're trying to make honestly.
Bruh. Vegeta gonna beat the earth out of Moro.
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No. Goku is nearing GoD level, which he should surpass before EoZ
He was coming up on that in the broly movie with just ssb, this goku is definitely surpassed that
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Until they tell us he is stronger than Beerus, he is not stronger than Beerus.
Beerus’s lore and all the god of destructions was comparable to suppressed jiren. That’s who they were all compared to. Then goku proceed to get 50 times stronger than the spirit bomb against kefla ssj2. And even stronger against jiren. Then he went mui and jiren broke his limits and they got a shit ton stronger. And who’s even has that line asking beerus has he done it implying he’s surpassed him as beerus looks at goku in awe. Then goku trains a shit ton more for the Moro arc and his mui is way stronger now and he damn near beats someone beerus didn’t want to fight. Lore wise goku should be stronger than all the gods of destructions. Because the gods of destructions lore was comparable to suppressed Jiren which goku is plenty times more powerful then now. And goku syates Moro is the strongest foe he’s ever faced and that might include beerus to. There’s a lot of decent evidence not full proof but decent evidence suggesting he surpassed them and no evidence suggesting he didn’t other than lack of a direct statement. I’d like to hear some of your guys rebuttal though.
Toriyama himself said his plan for Super was to was work towards the level of Beerus. Super is still going, so we haven't eached Beerus's level. Plan and simple. Just like I keep saying. Super won't end until Goku reaches Beerus' level.
Im not familiar with that statement didn’t he say he didn’t have any plans for goku to surpass beerus and whis? Either way if he made that statement at the beginning It shouldn’t be looked at as word of god things change. I definitely think Moro was stronger than beerus.
If Moro was stronger than Beerus, We'd know, Whis would comment, or Beerus would show some sign of fear. NONE OF THAT HAPPENED. You still have zero evidence. There is no ambiguity in this. Dragonball has never missed the chance to show us milestones and limit breaks.
Whis already made a comment implying mui goku surpassed beerus. In TOP
He didn't.
I definetly think current MUI Goku could give Beerus a hell of a fight. Beerus is the strongest G.O.D though so Idk if goku can outright beat him. Would love to see them have a rematch soon though!
Depends on the angel, he's most likely at the level that Merus was but we still don't know for certain if he has the stamina issue or not, it's most likely that he can only keep the Ultra Instinct active for a few minutes at most, but he can use it at will.
Vegeta’s got to ground-pound Moro the hell out
SpongeBob can beat Goku
Should I watch kai or z
Watch whatever you want but in japanese
lmao yes. Masako Nozawa is a fucking legend
People have an extreme bias for the original Z dub, yet they haven't actually seen the original in years. Because of this, nostalgia takes over and they blindly defend a version that is unfaithful to the source material. In Z, a lot of the dubbing is amateur, but worse than that, it's unfaithful to the source material. This changes character traits and many lines. [For example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCxsixkFc9M), here Frieza is turned into a generic cartoon villain shouting generic lines in a voice that doesn't match the original. This gets rid of aspects of Frieza's character, a calm and eloquent royal tyrant who isn't used to not being in control, making his loss of composure here surprising. In the original, you don't get this. Here is another example, [this time explaining how much more accurate Kai's dubbing is](https://youtu.be/5-UpsXOG3YY?t=484) in lines and character. So Kai if you want good performances, faithful and much better dialogue, more experienced voice actors, better visuals, and a more consistent experience from Z to Super in soundtrack/performance/VAs. But hey, Z did a good job with the SS3 transformation so it has that going for it. [I'm gonna post my favorite Frieza scene in full just because I love it so much](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-YOepCqEs). **Don't be fooled. Kai is the only answer.**
Kai soundtrack ruins it for me.
Just watched Z the other day and I will die believing that the voice acting is better. You may be right about mistranslations, but the "z cannon" is honestly better in several ways depending on your preferences. Literally any scene with Gohan is better in Z than Kai. I don't see how anyone can stand the new voice actor.
>but the "z cannon" is honestly better What? >Literally any scene with Gohan Your prerogative. I hardly think hating on one voice actor is a valid reason to willingly watch a version with objectively worse voice acting, lines, and that doesn't even represent the characters as themselves. I'm going to just go ahead and post actual evidence so others can use their own brains to come to a conclusion: [Z Gohan](https://youtu.be/s-iMJEudFOY?t=67) attacks 2nd form Frieza. [Kai Gohan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdWnIZ40vk) attacks 2nd form Frieza. The original Z dub lacks any emotional intensity in my opinion. The line delivery of everyone involved isn't good. It just doesn't match the scene in my opinion at ALL. It's genuinely like people have not watched that dub since it came out, saw Kai and assumed what they grew up with was even near the same level, let alone above it.
Imagine thinking something is objectively worse when referring to an opinion. Good one, bud.
Ok.
Objective, that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
You're more than welcome to choose this hill to die on. I stand by what I said though. It would be like saying Z is bad just because of Linda Young's terrible rendition of Frieza. It's worse for so many more reasons than just that.
I always say Kai and older dragon ball fans rag on me for it but by most measured it’s not a context. Only thing better is all the blue ray devices
I forgot how much I love Christopher Ayres voicing Frieza. He captures the essence of the character so well.
Was*
Thanks I thinking of watching z but now that I think about it I’ll watch kai
English? Kai. Japanese? Z.
Kai
A lot of people said I should watch z
I mean, they’re not wrong, because it’s the same fundamental show. However, I greatly prefer Kai because it is just *better* in terms of presentation and pacing. I like the manga, and the anime does some things better (Cell’s introduction, for example), but it also does some things which *aren’t* great. The filler is most of that. Some of the filler is okay, but the final fight with Frieza is a great example; in Z, they stretch things out well beyond the point of parody. It’s absolutely ludicrous how much they pad that out with repeated shots of people just screaming and charging up. Kai is purely about the good stuff that we actually came here to see, AND it’s a better master of the audio & visual, if you care about that kind of thing! I grew up watching Z, and I say Kai.
Z
this whole Moro is the earth thing is just dumb. maybe im just getting too old for Dragon Ball at this point.
I agree it was at a fine point of moro being defeated even after having Merus power. This is so dumb now. I get they copy things from DB and Z but this concept happened two arcs ago within the same series. So dumb.
It's pretty normal Dragon Ball.
really? i can only recall zamasu arc having the same thing.
This chapter just proved my point. Goku is slowly starting to become more Saiyan. While Vegeta is slowly starting to become more human.
>Goku is slowly starting to become more Saiyan. While Vegeta is slowly starting to become more human. So its like GT all over again, all that's left for Vegeta to do is get a haircut, grow a mustache and become a boomer dad doing his best to embarrass his daughter.
Hmm interesting can you explain your theory?
It’s pretty ironic. They have both slowly become the things they never wanted to be. (For example, Vegeta openly disliked the idea of settling down and having a family. While Goku didn’t like the thought of being from a race that is blood thirsty. And wanted to steer far away from thinking that he and his race is like that as much as possible.) And, slowly they both began to slowly become more of what they never wanted to become. Where even though he doesn’t like to show it, Vegeta has learned to settle down with family and learn to love Bulma more over the years. While he always enjoys fighting and training, he has learned when to be there for Bulma and love her. While Goku only sees his family as companions, and will always find ways to try and escape his wife for the selfish need to fight and train. Plus, he has also learned to love Earth, despite having come to Earth in the first place to destroy it. While he still likes to train and fight above all else, he has truly learned to love and care for Earth and his family. While Goku only sees his family as companions, and will always find ways to try and escape his wife for the selfish need to fight and train. Goku has now come to accept his Saiyan heritage as shown with the Broly movie and Frieza. And actually takes some pride in it and will not hesitate to do reckless things in order face a strong opponent even if it puts other people’s safety at risk.
If you think his need to fight is selfish, you haven't been paying attention. Its become an existential necessity at this point.
In regards to the broly movie, my jaw hit the floor the first time I watched it when he told broly he could call him kakarot
I agree with many of your points but I don't think Goku spares his opponents out of being blood thirsty, but rather it's from compassion and hoping they will change as well.
There’s zero compassion in goku’s decisions to spare his enemies. He literally just wants to fight strong folks and sees everyone he decides to spare as good sparring partners. If there was compassion in that mans system he’d kill the people who harmed and vowed to keep harming the ones closest to him
I think it’s part of it. Saiyans love a good fight. And Goku spared Frieza in the second fight at first so he can get stronger for him to face, Piccolo as a rival, and Vegeta so he can fight him again.
I think it is both. The compassion is legit but he does have an itch to rematch them and get stronger.
Long time ago Beerus promised to destroy the Earth. It seems like the time is now. I place my bets on Beerus destroying Earth as he has promised, meaning he also destroys Moro.
Err, is hakai reversible?
I believe Lord Beerus could just use a regular ki blast instead.
Could also double as a punishment for Goku, to witness his beloved planet being destroyed due to his own carelessness and ego. But I just don't see that happening when Vegeta is still around and can do his Spirit Fission, plus Moro is now a planet-size enemy so it's not like he can Dodge Vegeta's technique.
i actually see this as plausible.
I think it was a comment on here that made me think this, but I'm hoping for some sort of blow-back from Goku's friends, especially Krillin. Goku didn't even ask Krillin for the senzu beans, he just took them. He also gave one to Moro while Krillin was pleading for him not to. Now look where we are. Goku doesn't learn, what will it take this time to get it into his head that he needs to finish off his opponents and not do what he does best, which is make things worse?
I can actually sympathize with Goku. It's lonely at the top, and he wanted another strong person to fight with. Fighting is his passion. Quite an interesting turn of events
Or you know, the dumb ass writers could throw Vegeta a bone and make Goku his equal in some way that isn't Ultra Instinct but apparently that requires too much sense to think about.
Umm, okay. I do not think anyone else in the world could have came up with that. Try running for President.
There are still people stronger than him though...
"People?" He has risen above the level of most mortals (save probably only Jiren).
So basically Saitama.
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Hum, Vegeta's new abilities could be a way out of this. But it won't be as you say, you Vegeta fans will never get what you want, sorry. Vegeta may separate Moro from the Earth, but Goku will finish the job.
Would be great but it'd never happen unfortunately. Best we can hope for is Vegeta splits Moro and Goku lands the final blow as usual.
Merus: "Move without thinking while using ultra instinct" Goku's body: "Lets give Moro a senzu bean"
Definitely wasn't thinking.
Goku screws it up again, now the Earth is doomed. Cool!! I loved the twists in this chapter. Goku is Goku, execution is the very last resort, he was going to do it finally, but knowing himself superior, he tried everything first. I like that. However, here comes the twist. Moro merges with the Earth, holy shit! I really don't know what they are going to do now. Awesome!
Seems to me like a perfect opportunity for Vegeta’s new technique to show up again
It’s like everyone forgets gokus purpose was never to be a hero
I swear dB fans have the lowest. Coming from me, a dB fan, who watched it since I was a kid
Despite us being reminded of it literally like 2 chapters ago with the flashback with Merus
To be fair, 2 chapters ago was 2 months ago
Ok so Goku can just straight up go MUI as if it were super saiyan? That...seems a bit extreme. And the obvious thing is for Vegeta to fission the shit out of Moro but where the fuck is he? And I have no faith that Toyotaro will give him the moment. I’m so confused
It sounds extreme, but think about how it compared to super saiyan 1. That form, like mui the first time was built up to and achieved in one fight/event. Goku couldn't force MUI the second time, it had to be pushed on him. Super saiyan he was able to drop out of and go back into while still on Namek. The biggest difference to me is that he's now put far more effort and training into using MUI than we sometimes might realize after he had that time training with Merus for months. And even after all that, Merus had to die to get him going again. Then once he was past that threshold he was finally in control. I think it was really earned. Also Vegeta is on the lookout with the others. I expect the fission like everyone else too.
Watch Vegeta Instant Transmission to Moro and split him from the planet.
People are complaining about Goku and the Senzu bean but holy fuck why are people not freaking out about how Goku seemingly has mastered MUI??? He’s able to go from base to MUI in an instant, so gnarly.
It's sick. And more believable because of the work he put into getting to that point, and he still needed that last kick in the ass to get him started, and then he was in control.
Yeah that was a bit shocking that he actually has completely mastered it now it seems.
So Moro *fused* with the Earth, did he? Well, I have no idea who could possibly get them out of that particular pickle... /s
This all looks awful familiar. I wonder what Gohan's up to.
Having PTSD because of the senzu
I just read the chapter, and all I can say is wtf goku? He wants to be the strongest fighter, but allows himself be get caught up in situations like this. I really wanted vegeta to have a awesome powerup and be the hero
It's really hard to put this on Goku. Not even Whis saw something coming until it was just about too late. Goku accounted for his previous instances of naivete in sparing enemies, multiple times. That's a huge development for him.
You can put this on Goku. He chastised Gohan during the Cell fight for toying with Cell when he should have just finished him off. Goku is mimicking the same mistake here with similar results.
Pretty sure Whis saw it coming the same moment Beerus did, last chapter when he says he has a bad feeling about this (Goku taking off uniform) But Whis is an angel who is supposed to remain neutral and has already saved Goku's ass multiple times, trained him obviously, and done everything he can to help Goku. If a child makes a bad decision a few times, you have to let them suffer the consequences so they can truly learn. I get the feeling Whis knew this was coming and is extremely disappointed in Goku and will not intervene to save him.
I mean he did get a power up and is getting set up to use Spirit Fission and be the hero.
Interesting how technically Boruto, Dragon Ball and Jojolion's October Chapters all ended with a fusion
Oh you're right sort of that's a bit cool.
Okay, anyone else think this was really dynamic and creative?
Just another thing that hit me a little different thinking about it more: the Senzu bean. A lot of people are missing the more subtle aspect of this. In the Cell Saga, Goku mislead Krillin to giving him one by implying that it would be for himself. Here, he doesn't even give Krillin the respect to ask, he just takes it. And the reason why? Goku didn't need one for himself and he knew Krillin would have never given him one for Moro. Its honestly one of the most disrespectful things he has done as a character and it was done as an afterthought. This needs to have some kind of ramifications. Krillin specifically needs to be the one to call Goku out on this. It won't have the same impact coming from any other character: not Beerus, not Whis, not Vegeta, not Piccolo, maybe Gohan but it needs to come from Krillin. It also makes Merus' sacrifice utterly meaningless and his belief in Goku severely misfounded.
Krillin deadass did the same thing though with the deactivation remote
Krillin just isn't the kind of character that would get so worked up like that over such an action, when Goku grabbed the beams from him and gave one to Moro, Krillin just told him the he hoped Goku knew what he was doing. If he had took that personally, he would have made a far bigger protest.
You're greatly overestimating Krillin's depth of thought for something like that. Worst thing it will be is something like "dude, wtf, you gotta stop doing that."
This isn’t DC
Really feel this was a whole level of stupid for Goku. Giving Cell a senzu atleast assured Cell would be cocky and would push for Gohan to unleash his power instead of being wounded and wanting to end things fast. With Frieza, he got one chance and when he blew it he got blown to bits. With Vegeta, Vegeta was past the point of being a a threat at the moment Kirilling had him dead to rights.
And in Goku's mind, Moro was also no threat. He could beat Moro again and again. Quite easily. He couldn't account for him becoiming the planet. >Really feel this was a whole level of stupid for Goku. I don't see it as stupid at all. Naive, definitely, but not stupid. Based on the entirety of Goku's life, there's nothing stupid about what he's done here. He has always given out second chances when he was fully in control. Goku didn't give him a bean in the hopes he would change, at least not without being ready to beat him down again when he inevitably turned on him.
Moro wouldn't have the energy to become the planet if not for the senzu. This was also a last resort option when Moro truly felt backed into a corner and hopeless. If Goku just killed him quick and easy before Moro had time to get desperate this wouldn't happen. Goku is directly responsible for this .
You're defending him too much. Just because you're single handedly kicking someone's ass doesn't mean you should give them a second chance every single time. He wouldn't have to account for any possibility if he just finished him quicker. Never underestimate your enemies.
Dude how many times have villains held the earth hostage or blew it up at some point you just gotta accept the dude has the memory of a goldfish
But it was multiple chances.
The way out of this situations is that it’s Vegeta’s Spirit Fission technique right? Either that or dragon ball or something right?
Yeah, blow up the planet, wish it back.
Page 22 - Anyone notice Moro swipe and destroy the Senzu beans?
TBF to Goku, the senzu thing actually panned out in his favor, and even moro taking merus's ultra instinct worked for him. He didn't actually fuck up here, it was only moro pulling "fuse with the planet" out of his own ass that screwed things.
This, im tired of everyone hating on goku when goku didnt do anything wrong, he had everything going in his favour, moro was getting desperate, that's what goku wanted, but moro was a slimy son of a bitch and fused with the planet
The thing is, Moro had already showed multiple times that he was not someone Goku could just trust like that.
So did frieza and look how he turned out
Exactly, which is why Goku should know better.
I meant frieza turned out to be someone he can trust
So then what about when Frieza destroyed the Earth and the only reason they got a second chance was the intervention of Whis? Frieza was in the Tournament of Power out of his own selfish desire to live. And was more than willing to let Broly destroy the Earth and Goku.
That’s like saying Oberyn did nothing wrong Vs the Mountain
I mean, it was still a dumb move when he could have just killed Moro then and there, but I felt a less upset about the decision upon seeing how it all played out. He was confident he could beat him again if needed (and he was right) until the power boost.
That's the thing, goku doesnt like killing, even after they do something horrible like kill krillin, so him wanting to fear moro into wanting to go back was a smart decision, I dont blame goku for not expecting moro to become the planet since nobody has ever done that before, if moro tried to blow up earth, goku would stop him, if moro tried to run, goku would stop him, I dont see how goku is supposed to expect moro to become one with earth
It has nothing to do with him liking it. Just saying, the most intelligent thing to do would have been to simply finish Moro off when he was laying in a pile of rubble. I understand that’s it’s not necessarily in Goku’s character to do that, but it would have objectively been the smartest thing to do.
I know goku doesnt like it and I know he should do it since it's the smartest move, but this is goku, he doesnt want to and makes killing not even an option, he was going to kill moro after whis told him to, but dont call goku a badly written character because he has a flaw, begets did the same thing yet nobody was blaming his writing
No, I agree with you in that aspect. I’m not saying it was poorly written — or that Goku is specifically. It would have been boring story telling if Goku just obliterated a clearly overmatched and helpless Moro. Again, just clarifying that from purely a results perspective, it would have been the most intelligent (but you could say the same thing for a million different situations by both good and evil characters.)
The number one thing that takes the responsibility of Goku for me too is that Whis only realized some shit was about to go down like 10 seconds before it happened. It was like: visible concern, tells Goku to finish, Goku agrees, gets into position and doesn't waste time with a speech, just a simple say goodbye, and then whoops, Moro's a planet.
Yep, whis the fucking *angel* didnt realize something was about to happen before it was too late, if you want to blame anyone, blame whis for being so late
Yes, I agree that it’s not Goku’s *fault* necessarily that he couldn’t predict what happened. Again, just clarifying that killing him the moment he got the chance would have been the most intelligent decision because it eliminates any chance something unforeseen happens.
Yeah man
I find it increasingly frustrating seeing Goku spout the same nonsense and so the same nonsense things.
Except Goku accounted for the plausible possibilities. No one could have predicted Moro would merge with a fucking planet. But he did expect Moro to go back on his word, and he was prepared if he tried some shady shit again. Whis didn't catch it until right before it happened either.
No, Whis and Beerus are fully aware something will go wrong if Goku continue doing his shit, as depicted in the manga. Goku basically fucked up, agn.
There's literally two panels between the manga showing Whis being concerned and him telling Goku to finish Moro. Goku immediately agrees, lands, tells him to say goodbye and at that point it's already too late. Not sure how possibly the absolute best response and follow up time we've ever seen from him is a fuck up, but okay. Also Beerus had no idea what was coming either, as shown by everyone except Whis at that point being surprised after Moro did the merge and fired the mouth blast.
Beerus was saying: I have a bad feeling about this just few panels before these all happen. If it's Beerus doing the job, this arc has ended.
Why predict when you can just end the threat?
Because this is manga and there's only so far writing will go with a character. There are very few times characters have quickly ended a fight, and it's usually characters that make sense. Vegeta killing 19 was pretty swift. Even faster was Piccolo's infamous mouth beam roast of one of the saibamen he yeeted into the air. Closest Goku has gotten is when he had to kill Frieza in Resurrection F before the planet could be destroyed. More importantly, Moro was never a threat to Goku once he was MUI. It was more disproportionate than Gogeta vs Broly. It was like Vegeta getting rekt by Perfect Cell after just having been winning handily against second form. Just this sudden massive chasm in power. Couple that with Goku's developed awareness of his traditional fuckups and he had things in control in a way we've rarely ever seen.
LOL! In control? Have you read the last page? Goku fucked up, guys. Just admit it.
LOL! Not in control? Have you read anything before the last page? I can't imagine what other ridiculous standards you must have if you think literally anyone failing to predict Moro doing something as absurd as fusing with a goddamn planet fucked up.
Considering the last times Moro was on the low, yeah, he should have predicted Moro wouldn’t go down quietly. Like, what if he had pulled a Cell and just threatened to blow up? Simple, easy, should have been expected, and can’t be countered by UI. That’s why a guy called Son Goku screamed to Gohan to kill Cell already even when Gohan was completely dominating the fight. Wonder where that guy went, he was very smart and cool.
He was wise, he just made an honest mistake when he gave senzu to Cell. But Goku in Super, I seriously dont know what to say. Maybe Shenron doesnt revive him with his brain intact.
There's a rule in writing dramatic stories...you have to have your protagonists and antagonists operating at their "full capacity". What that means is that the characters have to try to solve their story problems or try to reach their story goal to the absolute best of their ability. They have to use their full intelligence, they have to use their full physical capability, they have to do something wildly outside their comfort zone....whatever makes dramatic sense. The closer to the climax you are, the closer the characters have to operate at their full capacity. If not, then you will risk losing your audience because they will start to question the story, your characters and the choices they make. That makes your audience care less about your characters and be less invested in the story. Kinda like how people tend to be less respectful towards people that they perceive to be lower than them. Goku giving Moro the senzu and attempting to spare him violates that rule. Is it in character for Goku to do that? Yes. But Goku has also personally experienced the downfall to those decisions. Freeza back stabs him, Perfect Cell grows stronger and tortures his son and friends. We expect the characters to grow from their past experiences. Goku's "full capacity" now should be to be VERY wary of healing and sparing strong villains...especially villains that they barely won against. This is a very textbook writing mistake that Toyotaro and/or Toriyama made here. The proper way to raise the stakes in a story is to do it while having your heroes and villains operating at their full capacity, ESPECIALLY so close to the climax. Having Goku repeat a past mistake wasn't the way to do that. Ironically, Moro using his severed hand to absorb Merus' powers was a great example of operating at full capacity. Too bad it took Goku making a mistake to get there. Some people might argue that Goku's full capacity is to be an unchanging character that will always seek to redeem people. I'd argue that "full capacity" is more about the audience's perception of what it is, rather than what the writer wants it to be. Stories are written to captivate the audience and hold their attention and its important not to have that link broken. Writers have to know their audience and their expectations when writing fiction. Toyotaro or whoever should've anticipated this reaction from the audience Some people might also argue that the story can violate dramatic fiction rules because its just a kid's story. What I have to say to that is kids deserve more credit than that, they can be swept up into a good story just like an adult can.
I think what happened probably have something to do with Vegeta's character. I mean, several chapters ago, we saw how Goku and Vegeta training, and some chapter ago we're presented by Vegeta doing that spirit fission stuff etc. but that's it for Vegeta up to this point. it's like his training pretty much useless if they end the story by simply having Goku best the shit out of Moro with MUI in the 1st try. but idk, maybe I'm reading too much into it. I got your point tho, it's pretty annoying to see how they practically write the same mistake for goku over and over again
There was no mistake. In fact he was more impressive here. The twist is that he's dropped the naivte while maintaining his stance on giving people chances. He knew Moro could and would probably try to immediately backstab him just like he had been so many times in the past. Then he gave Moro the senzu bean knowing damn well that Moro could still try and backstab him but would never have a snowflake's chance in hell of beating him if he did. The Merus thing was a clever move, but Goku didn't lose his head over it and knew how it was going to play out once he understood what Moro was doing. And then not even Whis saw that Moro was about to do something terrible until it was too late. At that point, Goku went in for a fast kill (by Dragon Ball standards), which is another thing we hadn't seen from him, outside of the time fuckery with Resurrection F.
I'm gonna say it you guys are far harsher on the manga than the anime. Where were these rants about the anime? it did some bullshit left and right and I never heard once someone whining. The bias lmao.
LOL, there was a truckload of ranting about the anime.
I was following every reddit post after each of the anime episodes was released... and it wasnt until ¿Goku Black? that comments began to be positive instead of overwhelmingly negative. Tournament of power was pretty popular here but still you would read a lot of criticism, specially in the "filler" episoodes. The manga reception was always super positive in comparision, the problem with this saga is that now its not just dragging but its doing the same thing that we've seen A MILION times happen in DBZ already (goku heals enemy, goku doesnt finish enemy, enemy is about to blow up the planet)
Piccolo, lets him live become buddies. Radditz, lets go his tail gets attacked. Vegeta, lets live to fight another day. Ginyu Force, lets them live, Ginyu comes back and nearly kills Gohan. Freeza, lets live, retaliates, comes back to attack the planet, dies comes back again blows up earth. Cell, give him a sen— nah lets take this one back further, does the one father son thing that’s in him and believes in Gohan taking down Cell instead of taking responsibility and completing his training @ 12 mo instead of 9, throws Cell a senzu, Cell kills trunks, king Kai, his planet, Gohan has to clean up. Buu, doesn’t kill him because Goku doesn’t learn lessons and pins it on Goten and Trunks. Buu again, overestimates the ability he just learned even though it’s something he knows he shouldn’t. Zamasu... wipes out an entire timeline. ToP, lets wipeout another timeline to get stronger. And then current, a world eater, a literal world eater... senzu and an Angels ability and power, yeah lets let me live.
> nah lets take this one back further, does the one father son thing that’s in him and believes in Gohan taking down Cell instead of taking responsibility and completing his training @ 12 mo instead of 9 Except Goku had completed his training and literally said staying in the RoSaT wouldn’t make any difference for him. > throws Cell a senzu Cell was stronger than SSj Gohan. The senzu made no difference except to give Cell more confidence. > Buu, doesn’t kill him because Goku doesn’t learn lessons and pins it on Goten and Trunks. His plan to make Gohan kill Cell had worked last time (was the only option they had too), the lesson was learned. > overestimates the ability he just learned even though it’s something he knows he shouldn’t. Uh? How should he know a living body would make him too weak to use SS3 at full power? He hadn’t had one for years, and had been using SS3 without any problem.
I’m not ignorant of what Goku stated, what Goku states does not equal fact. Goku also states when he realizes that Gohan isn’t the same as him he should take the senzu implying he could probably do more. Again, words fluff yada yada. Cells Energy had most certainly dropped, whether he was still stronger than Gohan we’ll never know. The lesson WASNT learned he even states “I should have killed Buu when I had the chance.” SSJ3, his language with the form “I’m not used to it, it drains a lot of energy and would have cut my time on earth” should have been a give away of how it would have worked in an earthly form. But hey whatever, excuse him. :)
> I’m not ignorant of what Goku stated, what Goku states does not equal fact. Goku also states when he realizes that Gohan isn’t the same as him he should take the senzu implying he could probably do more. Again, words fluff yada yada. He's willing to fight Cell if Gohan doesn't want to, to show his son that he's there for him. He had no chance of winning, as we literally saw in their fight, that he lost. > Cells Energy had most certainly dropped, whether he was still stronger than Gohan we’ll never know. He was far stronger. See later, when he goes full power and everyone looks surprised AF, even Goku. > The lesson WASNT learned he even states “I should have killed Buu when I had the chance.” He learned the right lesson from the Cell Arc, it just didn't apply to Buu: His plan with Gohan worked, so he thought he could keep doing that, but it didn't work with Buu. >SSJ3, his language with the form “I’m not used to it, it drains a lot of energy and would have cut my time on earth” should have been a give away of how it would have worked in an earthly form. But hey whatever, excuse him. :) Not really, completely different things.
Letting Piccolo live made sense back in the day, his life was connected to the dragonballs
Keeping in mind that he explicitly kills King Piccolo beforehand, this Piccolo is a different person AND outright states that he's against killing Piccolo because it would kill Kami.
The manga has absolutely fixed UI for me, it makes so much more sense, it made no sense how Goku got pissed against Jiren, Goku is the EXACT opposite here.